Why Tech Salaries in Europe are so Terrible

[@InternetMadeCoder]

To the Europoors saying "but the US cost of living is higher", that is true, but not so much higher it negates the difference. I ran the numbers here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/iX23c4qlgdqseq8

[@albertpuig6273]

66k a year is not a "terrible" salary by any stretch of the imagination... with that income you can live a very good life anywhere in the EU, and also save money if you wish. it's not that salaries in Europe are bad, it's that in the United States are ridiculously high.

[@lwwells]

American Engineer in Germany here (Battery Scientist).... I came to Germany to do a PhD. Now 8 years and 2 degrees later, my salary is 35% lower. My tax rate is about the same as it was in the US. But the work : life balance is MUCH healthier in the EU compared to the US. The truth: the EU does not work nearly as hard as the US does. I know people say they do the "exact same job". You do not. You don't do 1/3 of the work though. ~35% less salary for a healthier work : life balance is worth it.

[@jasonjackson8557]

interesting

[@Ghostrider-ul7xn]

Right. I'm a PhD physicist from US, and i agree that the work-life balance is terrible here. The high pay is simply not worth the mental health problems people develop in this country. People assume that getting a high pay automatically translates to high happiness rates. It doesn't. US has the highest Anti depressant usage per capita. I'm actually planning to relocate to EU in a year for better quality of life.

[@lwwells]

@@Ghostrider-ul7xn I agree with you and know your struggles buddies. There are pros and cons to both sides though. I actually really miss the work ethic of the US. I miss working with people that are excited to finish projects efficiently and with quality. Here they are only focused on Feiertage und Abende.

[@808arc]

How you dealing with IRS reports? Is big headache for you as German worker?

[@antonnnn464]

Well...I work for a multinational pharma company in Canada. Many of my colleagues are US or EU-based and do exactly what I do in project management. However, salaries in EU are also significantly lower than mine in Canada, let alone if I would work in the States. Equivalent of $100k USD is a very typical salary for a young project manager in Canada. But in Germany or France, it would a director-level salary. Directors in Canada or USA would be making way more than $200k USD. In Canada, we also enjoy universal healthcare and relatively low tuition for university-level studies. Annual paid vacation time is typically 20day + in large corporations.b

[@Rppiano]

Mistake no. 1 in first 10 seconds. $240k average is not for someone who just graduated. Thats someone with 8 years of experience. Also, that's not base salary, stocks, bonuses are included.

[@TheMemin247]

This. Also that's only in the bay area where you pay lots of taxes and living in cardbox for 5k.

[@chrisj699]

Exactly! $240K is NOT an average Tech salary in the US. This may be true for a few top Tech companies in the Bay area. However, for the remaining 99% US software developers the average is more like $90-100K. And has been on a steady decline in the last few years.

[@commentsonthetube14]

I donno what starting salaries are now, but Microsoft was hiring new grads for a hair over 100k in 2015. Plus maybe 15k in bonus and stocks. My salary is about double that now but I get a hell of a lot more stock. Stock is probably 2/3 of my total comp this year. No longer at msft.

[@dongmingzhu666]

@@commentsonthetube14Then why are you here? Why are you not sipping champagne in Barbados?😂

[@janlanik2660]

@@dongmingzhu666250k is not enough to move to Barbados. If you live in Silicon Valley, you pay half of it in taxes. From what’s left, half will go for rent, half for kindergarten and such and if your partner doesn’t make the same salary, you’ll need that free catering at the office to survive 😂

[@dzidas]

It's not about how productive developers are in the US versus the EU; it's all about how sales operate in these companies. If a company can charge higher prices for its products and there is a market for them, it can afford to pay its employees more. As a developer from Poland who has been working with a US startup for the last 20 years, I've seen firsthand how differently US companies market, sell, and build successful products compared to Polish ones. While things have changed significantly over these 20 years, there's still work to be done on many levels, starting with people's mentality, approach to risk, finance, and regulations

[@jimj2683]

Could you elaborate a bit more on people's mentality?

[@Serg-rz7oo]

US and EU software engineers use EXACTLY the same hardware and software to do their jobs. Java/Kubernetes/SSH/Linux/etc is the same in any given country. So the argument about Americans been more productive due to investments in better tools is plain wrong. I would also be quite suspicious about working more hours - a person is not able to perform mentally intense work for more than 4-6 hours per day. If you sit at the computer for 10 hours, on average you do not provide twice as much useful work... Other arguments (especially about the regulations and taxes) are still valid though.

[@iFryTube]

😂😂😂 So European leaders are clueless but you have all the answers 😂😂😂😂

[@Mooooov0815]

The renaissance of bootcamp offers promising FAANG salaries is finally here. First and foremost, the comparison sucks because it compares absolute numbers. When talking about income, the actual purchasing power that you obtain is substantially more important. With current PPP (Purchasing Power Partity) data, a 150k salary in the US is roughly equal to a 100k salary in Germany or France. Also, I really have to stress this: This comparison is only based on monetray aspects, it does NOT account for differences in job security, social safety, healthcare or work life balance. While a 225k SF salary is certainly looking nice on paper and is nothing to be looked down upon, you still probably won't feel significanly wealthier than someone making 150k in a different US state. Constantly citing FAANG salaries is also highly misleading, because FAANG and SF generally is an absolute outlier, even in the US economy. Salary aggregators put the average US Software engineer salary somewhere into the 100 to 150k salary range. Also, with salaries as high as FAANG being part of this dataset, you will also have to consider that this average is likely very skewed towards a higher salary and the actual median is quite a bit lower. Regarding the citation of the GDP, there citing the UK a sample for the EU average is funny considering the UK GDP/capita has fallen below the EU 27 average since leaving, but I get why you did that. I won't go into a discussion on the merits of using GDP as a measure, but I'm just gonna say this is not a really suitable comparison. Ultimately, it is true that there are some differences. However, the major common denominator is that software engineers tend to make an above average salary for their respective markets.

[@guybrushthreepwood2910]

I think your comment adds a much needed counterview. It does seem to me, though, that even the difference is lower that by looking at FAANG outliers, it is still somewhat significant. I get the feeling that the money that you put in your pocket for your present and future in the US is more valuable than in EU, which btw, slashes 40+% of your salary on taxes.

[@dfdf-rj8jr]

You do realize countries with higher cost of living have higher standard of living? If you want lower cost of living, move from Massachusetts to Texas to Mississippi or Switzerland to Poland to Turkey. But nobody will ever do that. The first stage of grief is denial…

[@alejandroioio6784]

The average salary for tech in usa is not 240k not even clouse, the average salary in usa is 90k for tech. You are comparing the highest salary that someone could obtain in the USA (0.000001%) of the population with the average salary in Europe (which again is not the same as purchasing power). Also that usa salary is before tax.

[@josephlim6854]

I agree plus if you don’t include FAANG salaries, the avg tech salary is definitely lower.

[@Hasanaljadid]

It's more like 120k

[@alejandroioio6784]

@@Hasanaljadid The estimated total pay for a Tech is $73,959 per year, with an average salary of $59,098 per year. These numbers represent the median, which is the midpoint of the ranges from our proprietary Total Pay Estimate model and based on salaries collected from our users. The estimated additional pay is $14,861 per year. That is from glassdoor.

[@Hasanaljadid]

@@alejandroioio6784Median pay for a Tech worker was 114,600 in 2023 according to Glass Doors

[@dfdf-rj8jr]

If only you could take the energy you put into coping and start a tech company. Then maybe you wouldn’t make as much as American Mcdonald’s workers.

[@kalan91]

I have about 10 years of experience working as a Software Engineer in Poland. During that time, I have been making between 40-80k USD/year (actually my first job was about 15k, but that was while I was still on my last year of master's degree). I was able to buy a car, and my own apartment, with furniture and equipment (with a quite high standard), all by the money that I made working in tech industry. If I were living in San Francisco, it would be really hard to buy my own property. For 150k I would be able to afford a car and rent, but owning a house/appartment would be out of my reach. So I a sense I make more in Poland, than I would make in California (compared to property prices).

[@techbeauty2450]

Poland is expensive now, on par with most of the US

[@MsFallenPrime]

@@techbeauty2450 lolwhat? Nice try.

[@WeShredForBeer]

As a German living in Switzerland: the people are not more hardworking. Okay you don't have 40 vacation days per year and 35h work week but this is still the exception for Europe as well. It is more the case that Switzerland attracts the well educated and experienced people. Switzerland is probably the only country that is brain draining everyone else.

[@marian11235813]

Of course except US which is brain draining everyone.

[@accountname1651]

Wo wohnst du? Ich bin nach Basel gezogen - findest du gut Anschluss in der Schweiz 🇨🇭?

[@sinizzl]

Basel resident here. Du findest keinen Anschluss. It's over.

[@Supreme40x]

@@sinizzl bleibst du in Basel? Wanna connect?

[@ce9916]

Not sure about your experience, but in mind, Swiss people are not only hard-working, but crazy obsessed about rules and generally very reliable. Walk across to France to experience a fun contrast. I’d rather party with French people, but work with Swiss people.

[@gullijons9135]

I think you might be missing the main reason. I saw a study recently that showed that US companies make almost 8 times the revenue per employee compared to companies in the EU, this makes it so much easier to pay higher salary. The European market is extremely fragmented, even with all the promises with the common market. Try selling the same product in France, Germany and Sweden and you'll have massive problems.

[@tonnytrumpet734]

You are missing a point, the EU tech employees are developing product which is sold in US :)

[@mrkekson]

Most of the companyes i've worked for are US based companyes, they make the profit there, yet pay less for the same work here. I can understand a local startup, but the big ones are just want to spend less money on devs here.

[@gullijons9135]

@@mrkekson But most US companies have no employees in Europe

[@timreverend2591]

@@gullijons9135FAANG companies have many thousands of employees across Europe, so do other US tech companies…

[@ce9916]

Part of your argument falls apart when you consider that anyone can sell to the Internet wherever they happen to be located. With localization, (i18n) your address fragmentation for the most part.

[@LCTesla]

Here in the Netherlands you have the option of working as a freelancer, which boosts your income by about 2.5x compared to working on a salary if you can find interim assignments year round. About 140K Euros/year vs 60K/year as a software developer with 10 years of experience. The reason why this pays so much better is: employers pay large part of your social premiums when you work on salary (worth about 35% of your explicit salary) and they take much more of a risk hiring you since you can take them to court when they fire you and they will have to prove that 1. you underperformed relative to your explicitly stated duties on the contract you signed and 2. the company itself is in financial trouble (!!) For most IT workers the protections you get from a salaried positions are overkill, so working as a freelancer is a way to get around the legal barriers that make employers hesitant to pay you what you're worth. It's also possible to work as a mid-lancer and retain about 70% of freelancer's hourly rate while getting help finding assignments and an about 2K a month guaranteed salary if you're ever without work.

[@danjelhysenaj4859]

I can confirm this is true what you just said. That being said I have worked as freelancer for 1 year the salary was excellent but as soon as they get their work done they will terminate the contract, but in the other hand if you are working on a salary you will get a lot of benefits & job security.

[@kukuricapica]

That depends. What kind of job you are doing and you skill profile. Also it depends wheter you work in a shithole in some Municipal or in big city. You can get a pretty decent flat for 1000 euroes. I dont know how could be sad with 5k euroes unless you snort it all up your nose. even if you spend 40 euros/day on food that's still 3800 Euros for coke, bitches and car. If you take bank loan you can pay those 1000 to a bank and you buy yourself a small house or a flat. Like I have been to U.S. you cant do that there trust me you are not that guy. lol

[@LCTesla]

@@danjelhysenaj4859 my last post on this got deleted... you're right that it can be tricky to find contracts to cycle through, that can be skill you need to master. Its possible to use recruiters on linkedin for this, which will take about 10 euros an hour from your hourly rate. But the best way is to find out where freelancers get hired through linkedin searches and approach hiring mangers at those companies directly.

[@LCTesla]

@@kukuricapica definitely possible to get a flat for 1k near the randstad and still make 140k a year there as a freelancer, you might just have to drive up to 1 hour 2 days a week (remote the rest of the three says) Rotterdam isn't that expensive either though and gets you close to where the work is. Some people just dont feel at home there with all the immigrants.

[@compateur]

Wouldn't that be 60K * 1.35, which is about 81K. Otherwise you are comparing apples with pears 😉If I would calculate the monthly income of the experienced software engineer that you are mentioning, I would end up around 4275 euro per month (viz. 60K / 13 / 1.08 assuming an extra month, which is standard for most employees in the IT and an 8% holiday pay). That's not a lot to be honest. I'm pretty sure that a senior developer with an academic degree earns a lot more.

[@alibarznji2000]

USA: don't think about anything, just work 80 hours a week and you'll be a millionaire. Eu: it's the weekend, stores are closed everyone's in vacation mode, life is short

[@cannotwest]

Eventually you get bored out of these unproductive "vacations".

[@alibarznji2000]

@@cannotwest better to be bored on vacation than to kill yourself working 80 hours a week and die without spending your money

[@mariocoronel8445]

and tech bros from Paris will continue choosing US, why? 4 times the salary.

[@Vlashkgbr]

@@cannotwest As a husband and father of 1, nah, I'm perfectly fine with "vacations", I have more time to be with my family, educate my son, enjoy life, that 9999999 USD annual salary means nothing on your dead bed

[@cannotwest]

@@Vlashkgbr I think you're a bit myopic. Let's say to earn a total 1.25m - what would you prefer? 1) working 25 years working for 50k/year 2) working 5 years earning 250k/year 3) working 1 year earning 1.24m/year I would prefer 2) or better 3), but definitely not 1). To solve all my financial woes early in life and move to more interesting things than 9-5 job, like capital management and retiring early. It's very difficult to achieve in Europe, but very possible in USA - just a matter of working towards it.

[@tonnytrumpet734]

Czech Republic, Medior Software Engineer 29k euro a year, working with people from USA doing pretty much the same for 100k to 140k a year in Boston hits different

[@francescoallegra5324]

Same story in Italy, averaged 32k for SW engineer.

[@Rhand007]

Pretty sure the rent is considerably less in Czech Republic than in Boston though, and you have it better in terms of health and education. It's a lot less hassle in Europe to visit a doctor and get a sick leave from work, and if you ever get children it's also a lot easier and cheaper to send them to school or stay home if they are sick. Yeah, 29k to 100k is a big difference especially if you are young and single, but as a parent of two children to be honest I doubt I would be able to survive in the US employee climate.

[@tonnytrumpet734]

@@Rhand007 Kind of true, if you are single in the Czech Republic, Brno where I am coming from you can live there in studio flat for like 800-1000euro a month depending on how modern flat you want, food can be anywhere from 200euro to 600euro a month depending on how much you go out. So let's say you get 2420EURO gross a month (1790 nett) you can save probably like 600-800EURO a month if you live frugally (no going out, going everywhere by foot etc...) Quick look at Boston renting sites, it seems like studio flat comparable to what I am living in is like 1800-2200 USD, not sure how expensive are groceries in Boston ? But let's say 1000 USD a month (doubt), you have minimal cost of living around 3K ? Don't count gas, transportation etc in both cases. So you 100k a year gross (6,1k nett monthly) you should be able to save like 2-3.5k USD a month ? Sounds better. But hey, I get it has to be tough to live in America, the richest country in the world completely geopolitically isolated from any potential major conflict.

[@kursadalb]

@@Rhand007 this is absolute BS, and it is something you Europeans make up to justify your lack of ambition and acceptance of relative poverty. 25 years in tech in the US and I never, repeat NEVER had any problem or hassle seeing any kind of doctor I want, anytime I want. We (at least in top tech companies) all have excellent private health insurance, mostly paid by the company. Do you really think managers at Google or Nvidia order you to come to work when you are sick??? I never had any problems with sick days. Many of us are multimillionaires after 12-15 years in top tech companies and keep working because we actually like our jobs. Europeans have this mass delusion that US workers are overworked slaves with no health insurance or sick days - keep fooling yourselves…

Same hours, do you have a family?

[@LaLLi80]

It's hard to get rich in EU as an IT worker is claim that only values money. I love my IT job and take pride in doing it well, but I value my life more. I'll take average pay with all the security and benefits the socialist EU provides over high pay in US with no job security.

[@walid7415]

Besides money people in US have bigger houses and more affordable and better weather and more friendly people and open to foreigners, important for people neither from EU or US.. that’s why even with all bad things US has it still more attractive for highly skilled immigrants if you look deeper it’s not only the money.. ofc that doesn’t mean EU countries are horrible but US still more attractive .. you rarely see someone not white having a very high position in EU companies, that’s only show how immigrants in US have more opportunities to grow and have a better career compared to EU..

[@LaLLi80]

@@walid7415 Do you actually believe what you wrote or are you a troll?

[@walid7415]

​@@LaLLi80 hahah that's the best answer you can give? yeah immigrants feel more welcomed and better integrated in the US than in EU, that's does not mean the US has no racism but it's nothing compared to the EU maybe that will surprise you but that's what immigrant from not EU countries see it and experience it too, countries like US or Canada offer better opportunities and more money and the English language makes it much easier too.. you can believe what you want, but people prefer US or Canada not only because of the Money..

[@LaLLi80]

@@walid7415 Sorry but your word for "EU is more racist that US" doesn't suffice. Have you done studies on this matter or can you provide data on it? I don't value money, house, car on any physical objects. I''m happy with what I got. If someone thinks that more money and bigger house is happier good for them, have fun in the hamster wheel pursuing the happiness. Not trying to ruin your world view but most of the planet is not native english speakers. So a lot of immigrants speak languages that are native in some part of EU. Also for an immigrant the social support structure is better in the EU. Even US expats(immigrants) like our cheap healthcare.

[@dan7582]

Bro, stop lying to yourself. We all know if you received a offer from Google you would get on the first plane to the US.

[@NémethÁdámBefektetés]

Well, it's even worse. You compare Nordic and Western salaries to the US as "EU". Here in Hungary, my starting net salary was ~900 USD or 10,800 USD annually. That's basically the reason I didn't even start a career in IT and I started working as a contractor + making content online. There is a huge difference between Eastern and Western Europe. Salaries are still great in Western Europe compared to what you have here...

[@ok-pp8fp]

I live in Belgium. The poor half (french). It's is a shithole and economic desert. No matter your job, you get 22K net salary. Your work harder ? you get the same ? Harder job ? long hours ? more study ? better quality ? All of this doesn't matter. Everyone will get the same shitty salary. Honestly at this point this is communism.

[@plussa666]

This is kind a same in finland. Marginal tax is so huge, if you do longer hours etc tax bracket will kill your gains and if you move to populated area, your houseloans take your cash.

[@TheAnonJohn]

You got it all wrong, that IS capitalism. The intense competition of a public funded educated workforce is driving the wages down. This way private corporations don't have to raise wages to attract educated employees.

[@adriantepes-qu8wm]

I live in Croatia and we went through several wars as well as 50 years of communism and the net salary is comparable to Belgium (the poor part). I thought you guys were living the good life.

[@jamesoo96571]

22k net, even for seniors? That's crazy

[@jorish9155]

I live in belgium too. Go freelance! I made 2k/month for my last salary. I "started a company". Now I make 11k doing basically the same thing. Apart from the money, I receive recognition from my clients for what I do. It's not your government that fucks you. Cut the fucking middle men!

[@justgame5508]

I don’t understand how the engineers are paid so much. I’m a mid level dev in the UK on £60k (not bad up north) and considering how useless you are as a junior dev, I just don’t understand how these companies can afford to pay those salaries. There’s is 0% chance a junior dev comes even close to adding $230k in revenue to a company

[@camn-bv3vq]

But thst salary is not real for juniors. It Just happens in the 0.01 of US market

[@sanzharnaizabekov8166]

Not true, the median salary in U.S. is around 140-180K, so 240 is not 0.01 percent

[@camn-bv3vq]

@@sanzharnaizabekov8166 It's much higher that EU for sure, but That's not common a 240K salary even for Seniors, even at FAANG

[@GodricThe]

Not juniors. That is a salary for a senior and includes stocks, equity, bonuses and whatnot. Some 0.001% top junior won't make more than 100k

[@camn-bv3vq]

​@@GodricThe I am not in the US market, but I know ppl there, and totally agree, that's the real rate. In nearshoring market that amount is divided by 2, sometimes by 3, but it's normal because of cost of living, taxes, etc. in EU is like the half of US

[@pascoett]

We Swiss are social without having a socialist culture. Social mobility in Switzerland is awesome and low taxes are great incentives to abstain from social welfare.

[@Goriaas]

Great if you are young, have a job in a well paying field, and fine with renting your whole life and being childless. There are major issues here too. I like Switzerland, it's a very clean safe and nice country, with a very high standard of living. BUT even with much better average salaries than our neighboring countries, alot of it gets eaten up by higher cost of living which significantly lessens the gap (they are still ahead ). Which doesn't mean you have more purchasing power in every area of life, main things the strong currency provides is cheaper consumer goods (vehicles, electronics etc.) and cheaper holidays The main symptom that showcases this problem: Switzerland has by far the lowest home ownership rate in Europe. Ever founding a family and owning a house in Switzerland has become an unfulfillable dream for many Swiss people, WAY worse than in many other Euopean countries in fact. Having a child/children puts a FAR higher financial (even after accounting for higher wages) burden on people than their neighboring countries, and real estate prices are astronomical

[@pascoett]

@@Goriaas That’s true in some ways but likewise, with a fully paid “Pensionskasse” everyone aged 40 has the chance to buy at least a flat. And flats in Switzerland appreciate handsomely. Also, most natives inherit more or less money. If you have children it gets difficult indeed but it’s doable in certain places too.

[@TheJaciro]

242.000 for just graduating from a colleague; after that, I stopped watching this video, which was a waste of time. US salaries are not a dream all the time.

[@mariocoronel8445]

Nop, you watched the video entirely

[@ce9916]

You should have kept watching

[@GrosPointRouge]

It’s just the way it is: a cheaper labour market in Europe. This is the same reason why Africans and Indians get paid less than Europeans. In Europe, there is a high supply of graduates with master's degrees compared to the US but a limited demand for them in the small European tech industry. As a result, many tech graduates in Europe seek employment with American companies, which only outsource a small number of jobs to Europe.

[@LCTesla]

8:20 the difference in GDP per capita is much smaller between the US and most Western and Northern European countries, and almost completely erased when accounting for 1. number of hours worked and 2. differences in purchasing power.

[@dfdf-rj8jr]

It’s not erased at all, Europoor. GDP PPP Per Capita is higher in the US than almost all of Western Europe which is incredible when you consider the size.

[@jean-francoiskener6036]

Easy one. Programmer in Luxembourg here. Because you work much less, you pay much less and receive things from you taxes.

[@xealit]

Luxembourg is like one of the richest countries in Europe, right?

[@jol166]

hi love ❤

[@dominicj7977]

is 9-5 considered "much less"? not to mention that even thoygh its 9-5, most people work .5-1 hours more than that

[@beuman0]

You pay less than in US ??

[@guybrushthreepwood2910]

I don't see how you work "much less" than in the US.

[@guybrushthreepwood2910]

This is pretty spot on, primarily about the reasons for the disparity. However, I would challenge a little bit this "difference of productivity between US and EU". I used to live in a "third world country" and I worked for US companies for over a decade, all the time with American colleagues. At no point in time you could see this difference of productivity or in working hours. Furthermore, In many cases, it was quite the opposite. Yes, it's personal anecdote but I still cannot see if those difference in a few vacation days make SUCH A BIG difference, at least on average. It's most likely the other things (market, investments, taxes, bureaucracy). I moved to Europe and after a few years I realized the sad truth of how rigged and controlled the the game is. The ceiling for salaries in EU is very low, to the point where somebody with 5-7 years of experience will not be so far behind someone with double the experience. To add more disappointment, now we are in tech collapse, and that makes opportunities even lower and the hopes of a better future are diminishing.

[@darknezx9542]

I think the true question is whether your new business would pay a fresh graduate 240k. Almost certainly, no.

[@Darthvanger]

Haha right on the spot.

[@ce9916]

You might be missing his larger point

[@LifeGeneralist]

Regulations in the Europe, especially the GDPR is why we as a company don't like to deal with European companies and if we do, we have to sell at a HIGHER PRICE due to compliances, complex agreements and fear of lawsuits

[@ringsaphire]

yes but then your soda, food and whatever else is less likely to kill you in EU, that's the entire point. In europe we live an average 4 years more than in USA just because of that - and guns regulation. When I see all the cheap crap filled with poison they sell you in USA, I'm just losing weight not being hungry anymore. As for big pharma, it's the other way around in the worst possible fashion, not enough regulations, they not only let you die, have you pay A LOT more for it but will actively lobby doctors to get you hooked on their drugs even though you don't need them, harming you for no reason other than ripping you off. Matthew Perry case is the last example that comes to mind from a very long line of death from this kind of abuse.

[@ce9916]

I have a saas and considered selling to Europe, but I ended up deciding against it because of all the compliance headaches and expenses. It just wasn’t worth it.

[@Kimchiman216]

i have 7 yrs of experence as a SWE and make around 340k in TC. But here we all dont make this much money. If you work at average company doing average job as a swe u still make between 100k to 150k. Only small fraction of engineers make it to Faang or faang level companies and make TC more than 300k in a very high cost of living area

[@pawerybacki98]

You explanation is a good starting point, and I broadly agree with the points you mentioned. However, one important point your analysis has omitted is the problem of purchasing power and terms of trade. To give you an illustration of that within Europe, consider that the GDP Per Capita in PPP is more or less the same in Paris and in Warsaw. If you're familiar with both cities, you'd likely agree that the standard of living is comparable if you earn in Warsaw and spend in Warsaw to earning in Paris and spending in Paris, in a comparable job. However, if you earn in Warsaw and spend in Paris, your budget has now halved.... Why is that? The reason is because France, and Western Europe, has an advantage in international trade over Poland and Central/Eastern Europe; French goods and services are positioned as way more economically valuable in international trade. The growing disparity in income levels between the US and the EU, or SF and Paris, is largely explained by this mechanism. That said, the underlying cause of the mechanism squares back to some of the points you mentioned: that the EU lags behind in innovation business scaling, and so it's becoming lesser of a player in international trade. But the EU, and especially cities like Warsaw, remain in many ways more pleasant places to live, at least :)

[@nickv.v]

No way people in the US work more than in Europe. I work for an US company from Europe as an outsourcer, the most common word i hear during our daily meetings is PTO, in the team consisting of 9 people one is definitely on his PTO, meanwhile I don't even remember when I had a PTO the last time

[@SerenSert82]

How is this even possible? I would like to do the same 😅 assuming you are working 100% remote

[@nickv.v]

@@SerenSert82 what do you mean by "the same" ?

[@SerenSert82]

@@nickv.v work for an US company from Europe.

[@ce9916]

I worked in both the Europe and the US and Americans are definitely much more work and business oriented. Even during breaks, Americans talk about their work most of the time. In Europe, it was all about what they did or would do outside of work.I’m not making a value judgments, just an observation I got to witness personally

[@ohdude6643]

Same here! PTO is really a common thing in US companies.

[@xealit]

I live in France and one of French features is that everyone uses _phone_ and no one uses _email._ That’s how far back they are. If you like downshifting in life - yeah that’s good for you then. In fact, it is ironic to see Americans give “compliments” to French telling them how France is a quaint and slow and cute country. Like, “I’d live here making pastries for 30k a year”. If you know the French, that’s actually a kind of insult for them. Because the French are very proud people and they do not see their country as quaint and cute little retirement resort. Historically, France was one of the leading nations that advanced the civilisation. And their national spirit is brought up with that perspective. Now you have some kind of dissonance: American and Asian tourists who have no clue where they are but do have all the money to be there and approve the cuteness of France. It’s hilarious and sad.

[@dzllz]

France is a sh*thole nowadays, just look at Paris, very insecure and full of trash. But we all know why it has went that much downhill

[@Allen.Christian]

Actually, the biggest reasons that Silicon Valley became a thing is because William Shockley, one of the inventors of the transistor, was from there. He moved back there after leaving Bell Labs to start Shockley Semiconductor. The move made sense, since the defense industry was growing on the West Coast. Shockley was a pretty terrible person, though, so most of his staff left to form Fairchild. Fairchild was also not a great place to work due to ownership, so most of thise key players, including Robert Noyce and Gordon Moore, left to form Intel. The tech industry largely grew up around these companies. California was also much cheaper from a tax perspective than the previous tech hub in Massachusetts, so graduates of places like MIT, or companies that had been benefiting from the research and talent produced at those institutions, moved to California to pay less taxes.

[@itscooldawgdonteventrip]

nope .. it's way more than that. Americans work harder. Longer.

[@itscooldawgdonteventrip]

France created the Minitel. Internet was actually invented in Europe ( the CERN if my memory is good ) But people do not work as hard in Europe. Only Americans could create the big things like that. They know it we know it let's not lie.

[@Allen.Christian]

@@itscooldawgdonteventrip What, in anything you said there, has anything to do with what I said?

[@Allen.Christian]

@@itscooldawgdonteventrip Internet was mostly invented in America. JCR Licklider was fundamental in the conception and development of networked computers and ARPANET. Though the concept of packet-switching is largely credited to English computer scientist Donald Davies. A lot went into making the internet and you can't just credit one person or even one nation.

[@cluxter-org]

@@itscooldawgdonteventrip You're confusing the Internet with the Web, ie. the network with its usage. The roots of the Internet are from ARPANET, which was initiated in 1966. The Internet is based on an INTERconnection of multiple NETworks. So it's a connection of multiple small centralized networks. France had a national network called Transpac created in 1978, which was a centralized and unique network operated by France Télécom. The World Wide Web was invented by Tim Berners-Lee (a British man) in 1989 at the CERN. The main principle of the Web is that its evolution must be made in the interest of the end user (still true today, kind of), and you can become part of the network by hosting anything you want. The Minitel was introduced in 1978 and released in 1980. It acted in the interest of the service companies that provided online services, and only those companies could host something on the network. So the US definitely invented the Internet, and a British man definitely invented the Web. France tried to compete both with its infrastructure and its services, but the centralized model, the greed of the service companies, and the fear of the French government to give too much freedom to its people couldn't compete with a decentralized and a free-as-in-freedom model. Basically, the Minitel was like a streaming service, closer to a television than a website. There is a famous and great video of Benjamin Bayard explaining all this called "Internet ou Minitel 2.0".

[@smanqele]

Depending on where you live in the EU, your basic two bedroom rent can easily erode half of your low salary. My case is the Netherlands. Even the employer, knowing this rent discrepancy, is indifferent to the situation. Crazy!

[@MementoVivere.]

This guys dreaming. A common salary in my city is 45k after taxes 36,000 and average cost of a 1 bedroom is $1500. I live in a smaller city. That's over 50% gone to housing. That's before health insurance which is on average $100-240 month + co-pay (30-60 per appt). That doesn't include dental and vision which in the us is not considered medical. USA has ups and downs just like everywhere else.

[@mennol3885]

Blame zoning laws and policies. The ever stagnation of building new houses. For 20 years I've been saying we need to build more houses and every time there is an other excuse why it doens't get done.

[@ringsaphire]

This is not a EU problem, it's an everywhere problem. Past 2 years, USA is becoming much worse worse than EU in that regard. Heard of 120k salary living in his car because he can't afford rent in LA? Your equivalent would be 55k euros living in a student's room for 30k annual rent - or shared bunkbeds, 8 people in a 2 bedroom + 1 living room/kitchen house for a "cheap" 60usd a day (1800$ month). I've tried those as bnb while traveling west coast last summer, cheapest prices I could find. Your 2 bedrooms are a luxury compared to them lol I dearly missed my 900$ monthly 20m² studio in Paris right then, and that's considered expensive by our french standards (rent should not exceed 1/3 of your salary policy, it's closer to 45% than 33% of mine).

[@ce9916]

My sister who lives in Switzerland, pays 30% more in rent than I pay in my mortgage for 2000 square-foot house. And she lives in a 400 square-foot one bedroom. It’s crazy. And she doesn’t make commensurately more money either.

[@ce9916]

@@ringsaphire except that what you’re describing for LA or coastal metropolitan areas is true pretty much everywhere in Europe

[@NOCDIB]

American SWE with 20 years of experience who has been living in Sweden for the last 5 years. My net Swedish salary is less than half of what I made in NYC. My work-life balance didn't improve by much. Having six weeks of paid vacation now versus four weeks in the US means nothing when I can't afford to travel on a proper vacation. My rent in Sweden is 42% of my income and I have a 1 bedroom apartment. In the US, I had a 3 bedroom house and the percentage I paid for it was far less. The American Dream is real. 🇺🇲

[@StudyAbroadCoach-wm4on]

Why didn't you move back as an american citizen

[@NOCDIB]

@@StudyAbroadCoach-wm4on I'm moving back in 9 days

[@Hapkumdo]

@@NOCDIB why'd you stay 5 years though?

[@janlanik2660]

@@NOCDIB but why have you been living in Sweden for 5 years then?

[@cazorla82]

@@janlanik2660 Because he wants to

[@ukaszs5057]

Two things are not true: 1. Productivity indeed is related with the amount of work done per time unit, but not directly. There is also another factor, it is the value of this work. For example a plumber in Germany will be 3 times more productive than in Poland, but it does not mean he repairs 3 times more taps per day. No, no, it is not like that, its because for such a repair in Germany one needs to pay 3 or sometimes even 5 times more. The same is with a hairdresser or any other services. This applies also to software developers. 2. You completely forgot about cost do living. In Poland for example senior developers earn $60-$70k, but one can buy more for this money in Poland than in the USA for $250k. If you don't believe it check for example the prices of apartments. One might thing it is because Poland is backward and undeveloped - this would be not true as well, because it is simply safer, cleaner country than USA, with good infrastructure, better transportation system, well digitalized, with free medical care and free and good quality higher education (Polish developers are in world top 3 in most prestigious rankings, so they are better than devs from USA). But you are absolutely right about the start-up environment, which is much better in USA. Europe is overregulated, and there is no free movement of services, there is only free movement of goods. It means that startups simple have much smaller market for development... But I can ensure you is better to be dev in Poland with Polish salary than in USA with American salary, and Im not joking. In UK or Germany it is not so good, here I can absolutely agree with you, because the salary there is similar to salary in Poland, but the cost of living is 3-4 times higher. Btw I work in Poland as a contractor for Polish company, but we are working for a Swiss company (big pharma company). I work with devs from Switzerland. They aren't more productive, believe me, no. They have much more free days, they work much less, they have much more holiday. This only confirms that you are wrong regarding productivity. And why don't I move to Switzerland if I work for a Swiss company? It is simple, I bought a newly built, modern 110 square meters detached house located 20 km from the center of biggest agglomeration in Poland (3 milions of people) for $150k. How much would I need to pay for a similar house near to Zurich, Zug or Basel? $1,5 milion. You see, you missed all of these things...

[@sonnyskold5634]

I make ~50k euros in Sweden as a software developer with 2 years experience. Its not a ton but a very comfortable life for me. And i know people who make 100k a year which is extremely good in Sweden, but then ur self employed as a consultant

[@daviddike1071]

hi, please i need your advice. for someone in Cyber Security planning to move to Europe (i'm from Africa). Which european countries would you advice me to relocate to. with jobs availability and good pay x

[@mkuc6951]

I got to say i agree with both sides of the arguments below. Once I hit 30 i lost the will to rise and grind myself to death. I sold up my business and got a government job. The US is completely unhealthy with work life balance, integration of family and healthcare. Ive seen enough KZbin videos with people saying they're sick of it especially once kids are in the equation. You dont get time back in this life. The EU is, on the other hand just so depressing with regulation and really gives people zero incentive to take risks. There's no way id even be interested in starting a business in Europe under any circumstances, its way too stacked against you.

[@InternetMadeCoder]

Get rich in US, then move elsewhere to enjoy it imo

[@jimj2683]

I know many people who retired at 35 in the US. This is just about impossible in the EU. If you invest $100k for 10-20 years, you will be set for life.

[@mkuc6951]

@@jimj2683 What field were they in?

[@antonpegov2745]

240$ k is not true, google saying 150$ k is median salary for senior developers in US. So it is 3x to the Poland where I live right now. The problem that if I go to US (and get 3x salary) then I’ll pay 3x to everyone around me ) So it will not make me rich 😅

[@stefannowak3655]

Not really. Rent and services might indeed be 3x more expensive. Food in groceries maybe 1.5x more expensive? But cost of electronics, online services, games etc will be same as all around the world. So its still worth it.

[@janlanik2660]

@@antonpegov2745 that’s probably just a base salary stat. Total compensation in Google is base + bonus + stocks.

[@АндрейКамуда]

that means you can save 3x more money in absolute?

[@ce9916]

That’s actually not true. I was surprised as an immigrant to the US that he didn’t mention the affordability of living outside of the coastal areas. My house, which is average by American standards, would cost me about 3 1/2 million dollars in Europe. Here, with financing, my mortgage is $1500 a month. My sister pays more than that to live in a one bedroom in Europe, where space is scarce and building permits are insanely complicated

[@davidparker5530]

$150k is not the median comp for senior developers at Google. It's closer to $300k. You are looking only at base salary. Engineers are paid salary, bonuses and stock.

[@d3thtr4p10]

It's this lack of regulation that scares some Europeans, including me. While it's certainly an edge when it comes to starting and maintaining a business, it offers too many loopholes to treat your employees like shit. You hear horror stories about employers complete disregard for safety on the workplace, simply because they can get away with it. If you didn't know, you'd probably assume this is from some 3rd word hell hole, but no, it's just a US based company. Aside from that, I think Americans will sooner or later have an awakening. Work isn't everything and it certainly doesn't define you. Following hobbies and social connections are the true source of happiness, not this vain chase of possession.

[@ce9916]

Except that when there are no laws protecting employees, it means that it’s very easy for business to hire without risk. In my natives, Switzerland, you have to give employees months notice, and pay severance pay and all kinds of stuff that you don’t have in the US. That means that it’s much easier for US employee to job hop to a better salary and or conditions. The downside of no protections means more flexibility, which means a more dynamic economy.

[@yigitoezleyen8756]

They asked me same question : why do you prefer to live Germany instead of USA 1. I started to work and got automatically 30days (6 weeks) vacation. 2. I don't work longer than 40hours a week. If I work, I get extra off day or some companies pay 3. Health insurance etc. Much better than USA Etc. Etc. Of course there is also bad sides too much taxes (Steuerland instead of Deutschland) Too much social help for unemployed people Etc. Etc. I have chosen to live at Germany (of course there is some other reasons like my family etc.) but the real reason, I don't wanna work like a crazy.

[@dfdf-rj8jr]

Haha you’ve never even been to the USA…way more Germans move to America than vice versa despite a massive population gap.

[@timothydahlin5321]

What I noticed working with European companies. ==> employees - worked less hours (30-35 hours/week) - took long block holidays (4-5 weeks) - and did not work weekends typically. The long block holidays killed project momentum.

[@benjaminmeusburger4254]

so they consumed their whole full year vacation as 1 block? tbh most I know split it up to 2-3 blocks like 2/2/1 weeks over the year

[@ShuntySK]

You should never compare any income without comparing prices. I currently live in Silesia, Poland. Job title - Senior Golang Software Engineer. I get about 70K USD per year after taxes. I am currently buying a new appartment of 54m(580sq feet.) plus 41m(441 sq feet.) terrace plus parking place. It costs about 120 US dollars. I have all infrastructure nearby, like 2 public and 1 private school in 15 minutes on foot, grocery store etc. So this place will cost a little more than 1.5 of my annual salaries. You can assume that other prices will be also different accordingly. So I just don’t feel that it is somehow unfair that someone makes 250k after tax somewhere in California.

[@InternetMadeCoder]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iX23c4qlgdqseq8

[@patriciabonaldy9624]

You forgot to mention how much we have after taxes in the EU. It's pretty sad

[@ringsaphire]

You forgot to account what services and benefits they have not access to after taxes, it's pretty sad.

[@patriciabonaldy9624]

It's not free, I pay 1000 euros per month in this public health system and also I pay my health private secure system as well. When you earn more than 3k per month, you pay more in this "free" stuff

[@patriciabonaldy9624]

​@@StarryNightSky587wrong here in Portugal,a percentage goes to maintain the public health system, another to pensions and unemployment. And also we have to mention the health system is saturated and you finish going to a private hospital on a private ambulance

[@jantube358]

No, it's a lot more complicated. It's not just software engineers and supply/demand or is not the reason. I know about mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, medical engineering, industrial engineering, etc. and I saw job listings from Florida, US that pay 5 times more than in Germany. Even German companies pay a lot more in Florida. The startup conditions in Germany are really bad for many reasons.

[@22Epic]

Salaries are just numbers... What matters the salary compared to the cost of living (including healthcare and pension contributions for our US friends). You earn 150k in the Silicon Valley? Nice, you'll need to share a room in a house with 3 other peoples, stay longer at your work to be able to take advantage of the meals provided by your company, ... You earn 70k in Europe, you own your own house, enjoy vacations 2-3 times a year, ... I'll take the 70k ;-)

[@InternetMadeCoder]

This is the exact myth (that Europeans still seem to believe) that US cost of living is SO much higher that it negates the higher salaries. It is not. Just run the numbers, it is easy to see.

[@22Epic]

@@InternetMadeCoder Yeah of course in the middle of Arkansas it's cheaper to live... Also you don't really know what those big salaries are as most of the number comes from stocks (and no you don't get the full 100k of stocks when you sign your contract), then you take into consideration that the average software engineer stays less than one year in those big companies then you'll understand that those numbers are just marketing to attract candidates. (oh and btw you should check on glassdoor to get a better estimate for the salaries in the US)

[@hellomycating]

​@@InternetMadeCodera coffee in the US is near 10 dollars where in Europe is 2€... Renting an apartments in NY for 5k dollars while in Europe is 1-2k depending on the country. Man, with your logic everyone in the US would be rich and the rest of the world is not dumb, we clearly see people struggling in the US too. Earning so much does not mean anything if you can't even afford having an accident.

[@nightmark2120]

@@hellomycating That's BS you can get coffee for $1 if you want. Apartments in New York average is 4 k and you can still get that lower if you live outside of Manhattan like 2 500 k 1 for 1 bed room. The vast majority of Americans live comfortably. Household income by statista under 15 000 - 8.3% of the population 15 000 to 24 999 - 7.4% 25 000 to 34 999 - 7.6% 35 000 to 49 999 - 10.6% 50 000 to 74 999 - 16.2% 75 000 to 99 999 - 12.3% 100 000 to 149 999 - 16.4% 150 000 to 199 999 - 9.2% 200 000 and over - 11.9%

[@ce9916]

Having lived in both Europe and the US, it’s not even close. The level of material comfort you get in the US is incredible. I feel like I live like a king even though I live a very average lifestyle by US standards.

[@IKARUSBLOODYWINGS]

Lots of mistakes and misleading information. And also to say that an IT job is just "seat behind a computer in some office" is so wrong and to say that you can earn 250K at entry level is also not true.

[@dfdf-rj8jr]

Cope harder, Europoor.

[@someidiotwithnoname]

1. European countries vary in their laws. Yes the EU is trying to standardize practices but it still a mixed pot. 2. EU still has a nationalism/regionalism issues by countries competing not cooperating and this hinders cross border projects, a problem US capital and businesses don't have. 3. USA is truly a single market. EU is just trying to emulate USA but to truly do that a lot of reforms are still needed. My experiences with EU VCs is that everyone dictates something - for example one VC from Budapest wanted my start up to set up in Debrecen which did not suit me. Other VC from Croatia wanted me to set up in Velika Gorica. Third from Austria wanted me to set up in Vienna ... all of these locations have the human resources I needed and land but I'm 36 years old with a family and don't want to go 500 km+ from my hometown, that also has everything I need except capital, for something that might or might not end up a success. This nationalistic approach to business is what is killing Europe. USA doesn't care if your start up is in Silicon Valley or in some small town as long the cost benefit shows desirable returns. 4. Education. - We in Europe tend to laugh at Americans for their lack of "general culture" - the internet is full of video in which the Americans say stuff like "England is a continent" etc. but they have excellent specialisation curriculums that teach them how to be a good worker. I don't care about a PhD from a College that uses books from the 1980's written about subjects researched in 1970's and when you ask them what is the difference between UDP and TCP they stare at you like you are a golden cow. 5. Taxes - EU has bilateral agreements that avoid duble taxation so this drives up the competition in the EU for countries to lower taxes but it they are still a lot of them. Almost every EU country has - Taxes on wages (progressive, the higher your wages the more tax is applied to it also stuff like pension savings and medical are deducted from it), taxes on private and company income (private if you earn above a certain level annually you can get hit by income taxes, companies pay depending on their income level, activities they are registered for ... in some countries you have like a low, mid, high system. So low can be like 16%, mid 24%, high 32%), VAT that is calculated on almost everything, environmental protection taxes .... so on so on. USA has it own tax problems so this isn't a unique issue but what is unique to most European countries is that tax deduction almost doesn't exist. There are a few way you can take down your taxable income via donations but some countries (Croatia I am looking at you) investment is not tax deductible so for example if you decide to take your annual profits and buy a new machine if it is over a certain price (it was 3000 kuna, roughly 400 euros before Croatia adopted it) it will not be counted as tax deductible expenditure. So companies are discouraged to heavily invest in their own modernisation. 6. Loans - Some European countries have a system that if a company takes a loan it counts as a taxable income for that year. 7. Politics - I mention nationalism but this goes more in the line of partisan politics and protectionism which is heavily noticeable especially in the Eastern Europe. No it is not fishy at all that the company the minister is a cofounder of suddenly gets all the government contracts and they end up making a Wordpress site for hospital reservations that doesn't work ... but it cost 2 million euros. Capital tends to be diverted into partisan politics instead of the free market. There are more issues. But this are the basics of it.

[@LCTesla]

The dark side of American IT salaries is that it's very difficult to get into entry level IT positions. The horror stories about this abound on youtube. It's nice to be an IT worker in the US once you're "in" but to get there you have to bend over backwards.

[@stevevaii1094]

The domestic median income is to be used as a benchmark. The median income in the USA is approximately USD 60,000. The average salary of a senior software engineer is approximately USD 150,000 (majority of different sources give this value). You cannot compare Europe as a single economy with the USA, as the European countries are sovereign states with their own legislation and economies. The median income in Germany is approximately USD 50,000. A senior software engineer earns just over USD 80,000 on average. However, other wage costs are already factored in here: The employer itself has to pay a 20% share of healthcare. Accordingly, an 80,000 USD salary costs the employer 96,000 USD. Furthermore, in Germany there is the deduction-free continued payment of wages for 6 weeks. However, the 6 weeks relate to the same illness/the same reason. A new illness is again paid for up to 6 weeks. It is not uncommon for a full-time position to be less than 40 hours per week. In Poland, the average salary is just under USD 21,000. A senior software engineer earns around USD 45,000. The additional benefits are significantly worse than in Germany. Poland is a direct neighbor of germany.

[@spacetime3]

It would be interesting actually saying what laws and regulations are inhibiting UK & European companies tbh...

[@brandoparedes4305]

yeah but in USA if you need to go to the hospital you have to spend probably three months of that salary, while in some EU countries its like paying a grocery weekend and probably less 🤷🏽‍♂️.

[@JeremyBaret-bv9qq]

Facts. EU is nice

[@manofmartin]

With that high of a salary, your insurance will not exceed 5k in out of pocket cost. So no. it won't cost 3 months of your income at 200k a year. Your monthly income would be around 16k a month, so it would only cost one-third of one months income, and that can be spread out in payments if needed.

[@NOCDIB]

You thought you said something intelligent (but you didn't). Tech employees have good to great health benefits. The most I ever paid in the US for health insurance was 8% of my income for a family of four. After living in Sweden for the last 5 years, I get "free" healthcare but make 1/3 of my US salary.

[@AmauryJacquot]

@@NOCDIB and then when they fire you; because reasons; you're screwed

[@FormatException]

I understand why you think what you're thinking but it's not relevant to most employees in the tech industry. Since this video is specific to the tech industry I'll say that in the 30 years I've been in this industry I've always had incredible health insurance. As an example, I pay 4800 a year in health insurance and the rest is covered by my employer. I have a max family deductible of 4000. At most I will ever pay for my health costs is $8800 US. That is a trivial amount relative to my salary. I've also worked at companies that pay all health insurance costs and deductibles where I paid nothing.

[@Blazerelf]

Also US tech salaries are in a bubble, that is why so many layoffs. They will eventually fire and rehire for less until stabilizing

[@InternetMadeCoder]

yes probably

[@120M]

Disposal income in USA is already not so fascinating, particularly for families where you pay many insurances for health and children education.

[@dfdf-rj8jr]

They account for this in PPP, Europoor, and the disparity just widens.

[@ambertch]

One issue with analyzing based on gdp per capita might be that the statistic is, in aggregate, based on the total output of the companies. So it also depends on what companies are in each locale

[@1q2653]

10:00 the answer is that this is not what GDP means. GDP is the annual value of good and services produced by the country's economy as a whole, divided by the number of inhabitants. As such, the output efficiency of the country's economy including its market conditions ultimately determine whether GDP is high or low. GDP is more a metric of the country's economic policy than the value produced by its individual workers.

[@christoph4977]

Sorry, but there are numerous errors in your assessment. First, you can't compare anything to "the EU" since EU countries have a big disparity in salaries based on different things like costs of living but also some eastern EU countries are still catching up to western salaries, so a “EU average” will have a big disparity. I dare you to find an experienced software engineer in Germany, who will work for 60k. Secondly, comparing US salaries to Western European salaries is comparing apples to oranges. A fairer comparison would be US salary vs. European hourly wages for freelancers since only European self-employed workers are somewhat comparable to US workers with US hire and fire policies, health care, social security, etc. and even then, EU freelancers probably have a better safety net. So, if you take a comparable hourly wage and multiply it by a full working year, you will get much closer numbers to the US. And “productivity” for people working more than 40h / week is just laughable. We are introducing 38h and lower work weeks in Germany for a reason, because productivity falls off a sharp cliff with overworked people. Sure, I can sit in front of my computer 60h a week, but how many of those hours will be productive? People are not machines. “Productivity” is derived from things like GDP. Reverse correlating such economic factors to worker productivity is not only wrong, but highly discriminatory, cynical and objectionable. And the major difference between Switzerland and for example Germany, is taxes and incidental wage cost. (plus again, higher per capita GDP, that has nothing to do with personal “productivity”)

[@Lucas-wn5wm]

If its EU nobody compares to bulgaria or Romania but Germany/France.

[@dfdf-rj8jr]

You can look at PPP-Adjusted Median Disposable Income, which accounts for the factors you mentioned, and the US comes out ahead of Germany. You’re just insecure about being an American vassal state.

[@christoph4977]

​@@dfdf-rj8jr The PPP doesn't address any of the issues I pointed out above. It is only marginally better than nominal GDP measurements. I would roll on the floor laughing at your statement, if I was not so worried about you after your last election.

[@dfdf-rj8jr]

@@christoph4977It absolutely fixes the issues. Cost of education, healthcare, etc is adjusted for in PPP. You are simply much poorer than Americans, if you get a Google offer in the US, you’re leaving your toilet country in 3 hours regardless of “muh free healthcare.” You have a bad inferiority complex, and I suspect Trump will only make things worse. I’m not complaining, though! I love having vassal states that will do our bidding!

[@dfdf-rj8jr]

@ Are you mentally retarded? I just said PPP accounts for cost of healthcare, education, and the other things you said. You are simply poorer. If you got a job offer in America from Google you’d leave your toilet country in 3 hours. And yeah, you live in an American vassal state. And I’m sure Trump will let the Russians roll over you. It was a lot of fun in 1945, right? Have fun with that, Eurotrash!

[@oleglukianchikov3029]

You should have compared US tech salaries with Canada, as its more of a middle ground between the US and EU. You will realise that tech salaries in Canada are not higher than in the UK, Berlin, Nordics, etc. US is just an outlier.

[@caballoloco100]

But the salaries in California are substantially higher than the rest of the USA because they hire the most knowledgeable senior engineers with a minimum of roughly 9 years of experience. If you graduated in your early 20s, then you are in your early 30s. The cost of living is also higher in California and the US. If you value quality food, ... 🤔 Most European countries offer higher food standards and variety. It is not surprising paying for an flat well over $3k per month. Even in New York city companies pays lower wages in the lT industry. Some entrepreneurs pay Up to 50% of the income in some States in the USA. I would argue that It is gross pay rather than net pay, as taxes are high in the US for that income bracket.

[@orangemoonglows2692]

but you can make a six figure salary in other states - texas, georgia, washington, oregon, etc. it's not just about california salaries.

[@jazilzaim]

Very good video. You did a great job of stating all the reasons for why the US has managed to lead especially in the realm of market competition and ease of doing business. But I do agree that for Europeans wanting to succeed in tech, Switzerland is their best destination.

[@ce9916]

I was also impressed at how factual and neutral he remained.

[@suheelhussain4975]

From the comments it seems that people think that medical unsyrance, too much crime, 80 hrs work week. Please stop Tech workers may work atmost 50 hrs, get very good health insurance benefits, and there labor laws to.prevent worker exploitation The difference it takes 1 week to register and open business, federal and state gifts provide incentives, and the biggest is it is relatively easy to get credit

[@suheelhussain4975]

Moreover if your business fails, there are laws to help you through personal and business bankruptcies

[@ringsaphire]

this is 2024. tech workers there also have been laid out by the score thousands for the past 2 years.

[@suheelhussain4975]

@@ringsaphire this is part of American boom-bust cycle of economic activity.

[@MadalinIgnisca]

Why so many people are fired in US and way more hired in EU?

[@jamesw8171]

You dont have to ask why it is terrible. It is reflected on the EU companies. You pay shit you get shit. No EU companies that have strong tech right now unlike US.

[@Xamufam]

before the war the investments into europe were skyrocketing from 34 billion dollar in 2019 to 100 billion dollar 2021, 2022 it was 85 billion dollar today its 45 billion dollar. if the war wasnt happening and europe had a sound energy policy venture capital would be a lot higher

[@caleuxx9108]

Good topic ! - Love the statement that in Europe there is resistance to investing in tech (tech that increases productivit). Am in Central Europe... here, so many people who are now 55-62 do not know how to use a computer, email, etc. -- yet they are not that old. They were about 30 when computers and the internet started to go big 2-3 decades ago. Buying a computer, learning to use it, to type, paying for internet, etc. costs something - here for many people it seems like an unnecessary waste of money and time. But their lack of PC basic knowledge catches up with them, not infrequently, as people age and need wotk that is less demanding on their bodies physically. I love the youtube video "The secret life of social norms" and I believe it helps explain why some/many people dont lean toward new technologies more. Perhaps part of it this cultural aspect and the more east in Europe the more resistent to new things people seem to be, as if it had something to do with losing their cultural identities. ;; otherwise, its good to also look at Overall Quality of life in USA, UK, other countries.... Life is not only about money. Life has many different aspects to it. As you experience life over the years into middle age and beyond you shall see..... The USA also has some of the highest crime rates out of all developed countries... so much suffering is caused. Perhaps no paid maternity leave may be a factor...? Psychological developement of children is very much influenced by enviroment in first 3-4 years of life. Life and how it plays out over a lifetime is a very complex thing. ..;; Oh, and in Europe there are so many historical buildings that the taxes pay to maintaine. - there, soo again, the past rules where the money goes - thousands of money bills invested again and again and again into old buildings to keep them functional.

[@alanwakeup3344]

Damn that's a hard pill to swallow as an EU-based dev. I thought it was the longer hours and lack of 4 weeks of mandatory vacation, not that they were actually more productive.

[@benjaminmeusburger4254]

Translation eats up a lot of productivity. The US does not need to translate anything up to the point that the company is big enough to not only penetrate the EU market, but the "incapable of speaking englisch"-market. The issue is not only the text in the GUI, but also the support, documentation, discussions etc.

[@TiagoSousa026]

You seems to not like regulation but I am glad they exists but I also agree that sometime there is much beurocracy but is what make us have food with less quimicals, guaranty on the products, while buying an electrodomestic it has a power consumption rating, I can't be fire for no reason in one day...

[@KartGaming]

While salaries are definitely higher in the US, the numbers being thrown around are usually bullshit - especially "total comp". They usually count it correctly for the US, but not for Europe. Pensions, social programs, the taxes on the employer side etc are not often counted when talking European total comp. When a European engineer is asked for their total comp, they'll probably say their yearly/monthly salary, not their total comp. For example my yearly salary is around 70% of total comp when I dig into the numbers.

[@vagdrak6575]

I am a Tesla software engineer intern and i make around 10 bucks per hour in Athens Greece, while my colleagues in the us make 40bucks/h

[@Leto2ndAtreides]

A more basic assumption would be that US developers make more money for their companies, and thus in a competitive employment market, companies end up... Both being able to, and having to pay them more.

[@ivanpriz4547]

Actually if you add all the healthcare and social security taxes you (and your employer) pays to your net salary, you will get and amount pretty comparable to the US salary. So taxes are the main reason actually.

[@Leto2ndAtreides]

@@ivanpriz4547 The $200K or $1M, or even rarely like $3M salaries that can happen in the US for developers... Pretty much only happen if the company can afford it, and you are valuable enough to them to justify it. Comp is ultimately always a product of the market. If you work in India for a small company, it's not just that the local salaries are low, it's also that small companies just don't make enough to hire or pay for better talent. And competition hasn't driven salaries up enough because the companies aren't chasing enough dollars themselves.

[@milosstevanovic1377]

im payed 37000$/year with 10y of experience. I would move to USA for 120000 in a blink of an eye

[@stzi7691]

Most of it is right. But with the worker's productivity you are losing it. I work in an american company here in Germany and I need to say that we as an engineering group are way more productive than the american counterpart when it comes to effectively do the work. The only topic where scores settle is the equipment. That is also rightly said by you. Management invest lightyears more in equipment and the better tools to get things done. Regulations by the German subsidiary slow us down roughly around 10x. When I need to purchase a technical item for let's say diagnosing something, it takes 2 Months or more till I get the clear. The colleague in the US has it by the next day. ☹

[@xealit]

Come on, he’s not trying to read your mind and guess your specific case. He points out averages. I work with some German colleagues and they waste ton of time on talking and whining about really not essential stuff - but that’s just my concrete circumstance. I bet there are Germans out there who can focus instead of pushing for micro services architecture in a group of 20 people.

[@guybrushthreepwood2910]

@@xealit in the end ,this is based on speculation. I've also worked with Americans for over a decade and never noticed this productivity disparity (and I even stated very often it was the opposite). I now live in Europe and work I work, we work hard, but I've only been here for a few years and on one company. I don't know how it is on other companies, but I don't have good reasons to believe that in the US they are working like crazy (let's also not forget that US is not just SFO).

[@suheelhussain4975]

Productivity is t ok two output. So yes machines, tools matter

[@johnblomberg389]

The "productive americans" is a popular myth that get's cultivated on Reddit and other forums. I guess people are trying to justify why they should get paid 5x for the same job 🤷‍♂️ In the end the market will always correct, we are seeing it happen in the US at the moment with all the tech layoffs. I don't expect these kind of imbalances to persist in a global world, especially not in tech.

[@suheelhussain4975]

@@johnblomberg389 I have been hearing that imbalances will corrected since 2008! Pay differences will exists till non-US companies give better tax deals, and have a good tech eco system. Sorry.. it is not Reddit only. It is a basic fact.

[@clray123]

Tech salaries may be terrible, but my rent is $5000/year, not $50000/year as it would be if I had to live in Sillicon Valley.

[@cyronixed]

My feeling is also workplaces in the US are more meriocratic when in EU, if u are much more productive when your coworkers but don't get paid more or even less, and when there are foul eggs that literally don't do any work but don't get any punishment, you don't feel like putting in any more effort than you need to

[@ce9916]

I moved to the US and was able to start my business by paying $10 for a doing business as certificate (DBA). I considered starting a business in my native Switzerland, which is less regulation-heavy than the rest of the continent, but there were hundreds of francs and half a dozen forms to fill out just to get a legal entity name. Having done business with some Europeans, there's also a lot of verbal and written formalities that now drive me nuts. I noticed also in my siblings, a very pessimistic and cynical attitudes that contrast a lot with the enthusiastic and positive attitude you find in most of the US.

[@Ботхаршит]

For junior Software Engineer salaries in US and EU is almost equal but Europe is full of architect beauty

[@ALIENdrifter66]

Somebody has to pay the socialist & socialdemocrat party, and that's what happens in Europe, that workers are paying a big prize for that, most of them without really knowing how it really works.

[@balazs.hideghety]

Google: US median SWE salary and you get 110K. You can't compare Californian rates, as those are doubled even in the US. Now when comparing those 110K to UK/German salaries...with all the extra payments, then you're almost at the same level, considering that those extra payments towards the state usually are about 30% from the employer (and 10% from the employee before taxes kick in). Now whether and how the prices will go down/up in IT, instead of such shallow focus from the companies, I'd put more effort on the quality - so it's just the usual up-down. Considering how different a Startup/SMB/FAANG is, I think the most to lose are those who got their exp. in FAANG - except if they switch to doing business, instead of coding.

[@InternetMadeCoder]

Average SWE salary in US is $180,000 In Germany it is $86,000 The extra costs in US certainly do not cost $100k a year more than EU/UK. The "but but healthcare" argument is simply eurocope.

[@balazs.hideghety]

@@InternetMadeCoder 86k german salary with all in is around 130k total i guess, and average might be high due to CA, but median is more accurate and fair. so most devs work with an allin rate of 60-90$ a hour, and guess what germans hourly freelancing rate? Again: median, to avoid inequalities...

[@captaingabi]

Salaries are only going down in the US. I doubt salaries are going down in the EU. For the exact same reasons mentioned in the video, EU is still cheap. Also I believe the productivity difference is more based on a per case, per person, per company, so not on per country basis. I agree that US culture works longer hours. But I wonder how more years that will be true. On tiktok, there are loads of videos from US persons advocating life against work, and put down the work after working hours, especially gen Z and later. They are starting to realize that life is more worth living than working.

[@stjepancrncic9764]

The secret is in work life balance, duration and amount of working days. I work for a German company and have a nice and relaxed lifestyle. 30 days holiday + 13 public holidays, free weekends. I would never change that for money. Like with all things in life, BALANCE is the KEY.

[@petibankuti]

You also have to look at the cost of living, that is easily double in California or New York compared to many places in Europe with decent (not amazing) salaries. Of course even adjusted to that the disposable income is higher in the US, but it changes the difference quite a bit.

[@tomaszp2580]

From other point of view. Layoff in US to create job opporniuties in Europe or in Asia.

[@adrianb8832]

1.Living is cheaper in Europe, 2.Europe has bigger taxes taken directly from your salary, you do not calculate taxes. 3. Europe has health care payed dirrectly from your salary. Net Salary = salary - 43%( taxes & health care)

[@charles-cozette]

A huge reason why employees in the US generate more revenue is the size of the addressable market. There’s essentially a market size of 330+ million people, relatively wealthy on average and prone to be early-adopters to tech products. On the other hand, distributing a tech product across EU countries isn’t as easy distributing one across states in the US. The Mario Draghi report to the EU Commission summarizes all your points about why Europe is lagging behind in tech innovation.

[@ce9916]

When you can sell online, TAM no longer matters as much, especially with i18n. Spotify is not an American company and yet it’s making a killing in the US market.

[@yordanyordanov6719]

Hmmm, Switzerland is not really the answer because when you compare it to Germany and look at the salaries BUT ALSO the lifestyle and expenses of people in those countries, you will very quickly notice that it’s the same in the end. For example: In Germany you earn 60000€ annually and in Switzerland 120000 CHF (Franken), so basically doubled yeah? What’s also doubled is the food, 1 Kebab costs 6€ in Germany and 12 CHF in Switzerland 😐. Rent is also double, if it costs 800€ monthly for a 55 squared meters apartment in Germany, in Switzerland it costs at least 1600 CHF. So basically what i am trying to say is, that you do earn double that of Germany but you also spend double that 🤷‍♂️

[@InternetMadeCoder]

If you run the numbers (which I have done), net savings after tax & expenses in Zurich would be about double compared to Berlin

[@BarbarossaAB]

Even so, you end up saving 2x more right?

[@henriquemiguel95]

I'm an european and I would never accept a job offer in the US, regardless of the salary. I need my 30 days vacations, labour security, free healthcare, free university, labour legislation, 4 days work week, etc. Quality of life in Europe is far better than the US. Bro if you have any problem with that, please move to the US but be careful to not have the need to call an ambulance or something like that

[@tdreamgmail]

How many days off in USA?

[@christophersoutherlin2631]

Uh, many American companies offer way more than 30 days, some even offer unlimited vacation. Especially in IT. I lived in EuroWorld for many years, but everything is bigger and better in the US. Europe copies everything from American culture. In Europe, you're taxed to death, less freedom and there's an overwhelming apathetic attitude to be self-sufficient. Nobody wants to rely on Big Brother.

[@henriquemiguel95]

@@christophersoutherlin2631 european vacations are paid and mandatory, I don't need approval. In the US it's impossible to have unlimited paid vacations that don't need approval.

[@walid7415]

You obviously don't belong to the ambitious people, so he is not addressing someone like you, if you are happy wherever you are stay there who cares anyway, but that does not deny the fact that US is the most attractive country for highly skilled people in the world but some European try to ignore facts, maybe it's just jealousy

[@makisekurisu4674]

@@walid7415 exactly, this is for people who wanna develop successful businesses down the line.

[@jinglyjones1677]

Isn't the "value" related to the profit the company makes? So, related to point 1, the big companies in the US just generate more profit on average and so "value" per person is higher?

[@InternetMadeCoder]

Yeah basically

[@Dex4Sure]

One reason why Switzerland is the exception in Europe is also because most of the big players in cryptocurrency are operating from Switzerland, like Ethereum Foundation, Solana Foundation etc. But yeah its true Europeans are less economically literate than Americans and focus far too much on regulations.

[@NeilMartin98]

EU tends to offer a better overall quality of life when it comes to healthcare , work-life balance, and social safety nets (quality of life index and freedom index). The United States offers higher incomes and a more entrepreneurial environment for those who want to become wealthy. It depends entirely on what your goals are but both sides of the pond come with their pros and cons, met plenty of great engineers from both places :).

[@goldenotis9703]

Where did you get that 242k? No new grad is getting paid that anywhere. Engineers with years of experience are even struggling to get hired talkless of new grads. That number is such a reach, most principal engineers are not even making that.

[@peigenz]

242k average salary data is a bit skewed. It is only from those who reported. If you got lower paying job, they would not report it. So I believe it is average of high paying jobs only. At least I was not paid that much when I was hired.

[@josefchristophrosel]

I worked in two companies in which we also had offices in the US. The people working there were far less qualified than the ones over in Europe in most cases. My personal believe is that the ones who are good at their job go to silocon valley and I never worked with people who were in an office there. 😂

[@AmauryJacquot]

the net salary is a very hard thing to compare; as you're not getting the same package at all. in europe; you get proper healthcare included; even if you've been fired or left the company; which the US doesn't actually offer

[@dancingdoormanable]

This comparison is INCOMPLETE as as people in US tech jobs are much more like EU freelancers having to organize more themselves instead of being taken care of by a company. Add US and EU freelancers in the mix and you will see how much having a large tech industry really matters. As US is all about marketing and sales without substance, "Caveat emptor" is solid advice. As for getting rich by working, Switzerland and Dubai have been constantly ranked as the best places for expats.

[@samaelauneor]

I'd never change the stability and chill vibes my European job gives me to earn double as a modern slave in the US... and I believe most Europeans wouldn't do it either.

[@huubeijndhovenvan7177]

Productivity in the USA is not higher compared to Europe. If that were true product (with equal quality) would be cheaper and thus Europe would be flooded with cheaper products from the USA (e.g. cars)

[@InternetMadeCoder]

Um, that's not how it works

[@davidvultur8704]

Incentives are different. You will slow down your productivity in Europe, but you can't easily be fired. (sometimes even for years) You will slow down your productivity in US, and the employee can fire you on the spot. Different incentives => most likely different productivity statistically

[@davianthule2035]

"why are they so bad" Haven't watched the video but as Linux systems engineer I'll just start right now. 1. Employing someone in the EU is expensive, the employer and employee are usually paying 50/50 on social security and taxes, so someone making 50k, actually costs close to 100k Euros to employ if not more. 2. Workers rights and holidays and infinite sick leave take another chunk out of the salary 3. In Belgium for example, I was offered 40,000 euros a year for normal contract, however I was offered 150k euros a year for the exact same job if I accepted the role as a contractor, i.e no workers rights (at while hire/fire) and I handle my own taxes/social security like an American does. Most EU states are similar, when you remove all of the EU benefits, the pay gets much closer to what Americans are offered etc.

[@davianthule2035]

Oh and point 4, Tier 1 jobs (i.e pays 200-300k a year is much rarer in the EU, but they do exist, I know a couple of folks who have a salary this high).

[@mojjammil]

I'm glad you made this video as being in Finland I have been quite frustrated with the pay level here while I hear my friends making tons in the States.

[@DirkPeters3]

I find it strange that the comparison is done based on your income before all taxes and paid benefits. Yes, the taxes and contributions are higher in Europe. But you also get something for it, like healthcare, care, schools... For a fair comparison, either compare the generated wealth (salary before taxes + employer contributions) or factor in all the benefits into your net salary. So before taxes, an average tec income is about 60k€ (66k$) but the employer pays another 20-30k€ towards the healthcare and other social contribution systems. So, in total, 80k-90k€ (89k-100k$) of wealth is generated. And that is with the more life - balance oriented lifestyle. Yes this is still lower than what is generated on average in the us, but if you factor in that we also work about 20-30% less (40h/week + ~30 days of paid holiday r) that equals out pretty much.

[@dewaard3301]

I sometimes look at US tech salaries and imagine... But then I realize that I always have time for my kids, for their school events, for holidays, for so many other things that all that extra money just can't buy. And my weekends are my weekends. I don't even have any work communication on my phone. Having said that, if you do put in the productivity that is expected of US employees, then I would imagine you can make a hell of lot closer to what they're making.

[@Odon_Code]

Im planning to get job in us but i live in mongolia if its succesfull its gonna be heaven for me mann (im just learning to code just got hang of some languages)

[@DaveVT5]

US businesses pay about 7.9% additional payroll contribution tax that employees don’t see.

[@majorfallacy5926]

A hugely important factor is that the domestic market (and also the labour market) is much less fractured in the US

[@InternetMadeCoder]

yes

[@ce9916]

You mean like Spotify, a European company selling to the US thanks to this thing called the Internet?