Why The BEST Halo Maps Are The Most BORING To Play

[@AscendHyperion]

For the Bros: twitter.com/Ascend_Hyperion For the Vros: discord.com/invite/2fDjeYs The Art Homie: twitter.com/rockstonelegion

[@deleteduser3455]

I agree because in my opinion competitive gameplay is boring gameplay

[@NuclearChedder]

Its strange how Devs just messing around and trying to figure out the quirks of map design ended up almost accidently making some of the most enjoyable play spaces in online gaming. I think Halo is at its best when it has elements of both refined map design but also some experimentation, exploring unique layout and incorporating Halos sandbox in unique and interesting ways

[@morganwilcox3769]

You can see this in call of duty as well. The maps have progressively went to three lane maps with no variety. They have tried to bring back the magic of the older games but it's too long gone.

[@guitar_jero]

Most Halo 3 maps :)

[@Blockistium]

one reason the original Halo series had so much personality was because for a while it wasn't some megacorporate industrial machine, just a bunch of friends making cool stuff correct me if I'm wrong

[@LouSassol69er]

I think there's a finite amount of layouts that play out in a fun way. We've experienced all of those layouts so far and new ones just don't adhere to those designs. Some maps tap into old philosophy but don't fully commit and so end up being average at best. It's why MW 2019 just remade old maps for the most part.

[@pfeilspitze]

The problem is all the players that just want to play Slayer and only care about their K/D. So long as those make up most of the population, you can't have "interesting" maps because their quirk just gets abused. You can have interesting multiplayer maps when you're just messing about with your friends. But the devs don't need to make those -- that's what forge and customs are for -- so they don't.

[@voryndagothDL]

Early Halo: "Look at all of these interesting, memorable maps that offer varied gameplay and keep things fresh just by existing!" Modern Critics: "Too complicated, 3/10, preferred Symmetrical Square Warehouse#47 instead"

[@nagger8216]

I'll gladly take cookie-cutter bullshit over whatever the fuck Reach's maps were trying to be anyday

[@samtheweebo]

@@nagger8216 Reach was trying to double dip on the map design. Campaign and multiplayer share spaces. This is fine for a couple of maps, but I like it when some of the MP maps take you to totally different places not explored in the campaign.

[@rokor3578]

@@nagger8216 lmao cringe

[@nagger8216]

@@rokor3578 lmao cringe

[@DooMS53]

@Surya Selvakumar Hell no. There were a lot of great forge maps in MP! My favorite being The Cage.

[@Turtle3000]

I definitely agree, with a game like "Rainbow Six Siege" for example, it went from being a fun infiltration counter terroist game, to a sweaty competive game. A lot of the "interesting maps" are not in the rotation because they are "not competitive."

[@keithhusain2141]

I miss the old maps like old Hereford and old favéla. They were unfair for competition but they were chaotic and fun. Now modern Hereford is now double the size than before and hard to make out different rooms due to looking similar and new favela lost a good portion of its destructible wall. Something that was special and stand out from other maps.

[@ThatOneBullet]

I was going to use Siege as another example of this as well. All the old "fun" maps have just been replaced with confusing hallways and rooms because they weren't "competitive" and now the game has lost it's charm. The only surviving "fun" map is Plane.

[@tristanskywalker1998]

I've been complaining about this aspect of R6 Siege for what feels like years now. Ranked play is no longer fun, because all the variation in the gameplay is being removed. Only one game mode is available in Ranked, and only the boring maps are left.

[@enotsnavdier6867]

@@tristanskywalker1998 I never play ranked because I've never found it fun. I'm a casual only guy because it's so much more chill.

[@captainkeeli7561]

yeah siege used to be such a fun game to play, bad sadly the devs basically killed its casual fun style the I enjoyed about it.

[@nolankanski9116]

Chiron-TL34 is one of the most fun maps in HCE, despite being probably the worst, so I get it.

[@cun_0092]

Lol it's a chaotic map. Ppl shotgun and rocket launcher in closed off corridors when you "just" teleported to that location. Damn it was fun for casual plays. Most chaotic moment when a guy throws a nade in a corridor filled with plasma and frag grenades. Everyone goes boom boom.

[@amireduardo4383]

When i first played Chiron I used to think it was one of the wordt mao I ever seen. now i still think that it's a terrible map but i now know why some people liked it

[@Sephivoiceactor]

I hate that map. Chiron-TL34. Nah. Never liked it.

[@poorlydrawnrobot4218]

Chiron-tl is my favorite map in ce.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

@@cun_0092 it's at its most chaotic during matches of Team Muskets.

[@frank-b6169]

Most people today need to know to have fun playing video games honestly.

[@sumpyori]

i feel its competitive culture that killed fun gaming for me, everyone wants to be the next big e-sport comp player so they try their hearts out for every game, making so unenjoyable for most people playing.

[@gogousa6661]

Winning is fun... Its kinda cliche to say the people wanting to win “aren’t having fun unlike me who’s losing” Tho I prefer close games with my chill friends much more than squading up with other 50’s to just stomp on ppl.

[@Betito1171]

@@gogousa6661 the only time I don’t have fun losing is when the opposing team beats us by a very large margin

[@CR0WYT]

Fun is different for everyone. I personally like competitive games and grinding for the next rank, but I also like to turn my brain off and just play every now and then, so thankfully I have a lot of options.

[@ThatGuyKazz]

@@gogousa6661 Winning is fun that's true but I don't think anyone is going to tell you not to win or not try to win. Wanting to win is not the problem. The problem comes when your enjoyment or fun is solely predicated on winning. If you ONLY have fun when you win any any time you lose you view the entire time you spent playing that map as unenjoyable then yeah that is a problem. Many people need to learn to have fun first rather than basing their enjoyment of that experience on the contingency that they win.

[@SquallyDaBeanz]

I personally believe one of the biggest reasons for the decline of creative maps and the rise of boring maps is the relation between developers and pro players, not just what the general audience is saying. Pro players demand that maps be simple, easy to understand, quick to learn, and draw from past designs. For good reason, too. For many of them, this is their livelihoods on the line. It makes sense that they would want the source of their income to be something predictable and measured. Because of this, developers have catered to these wishes and created maps that hit all these check boxes. They've even gone to the length of hiring pro players to help playtest the game, give feedback, and essentially co-develop the game and maps. However, I think it has gone too far and many developers have catered to the demands of pros too much. At some point a stand has to be made for the sake of creativity. We shouldn't be afraid to tell pro players that this is just how a map is, and pro players shouldn't be so quick to judge a map that initially looks intimidating. A complex, unique, or unorthodox design isn't inherently "bad". It's just different, and may take a little more effort to learn and adapt to. In fact, this is the exact experience I had when working with pro players and the HCS team to get Echelon added into tournaments. The first reaction from most pro players was that the map was "bad" because it didn't resemble anything they already knew and took time to learn. It was unfamiliar territory, and that scared them, since it could affect their income. During the process, I compromised where I could to help alleviate some valid concerns with the design, but took a stand on other "concerns" in order to preserve the identity of the map and my creative vision for it. In the end, everything worked out and both parties more or less got what they wanted. I think that is the best outcome: Let the pro players help you address issues in a design, but don't compromise the original vision for their sake. Besides, it's not like EVERY map has to be a sweaty arena. Let's get back to having a good mix of hardcore "competitive" maps and more unique and creative "casual" maps. TL;DR Devs need to take a stand and make more creative maps. Pros needs to be more open and willing to give new designs a chance.

[@jefenovato4424]

Yeah, I agree. Pro scene has been in a degree a problem to halo and fps . Sacrificing map and gameplay desing in order to please competitive fans takes some fun away. Hope that Halo infinite have casual maps and casual gameplay elements on social matchmakimg, hope they take away that boring ping system on casual lobbies.

[@yx5367]

They don't want to be a pro player of that game, but instead some imaginated concoction. If you don't want to play creative maps game, DON'T, let alone make yourself a "pro" in it just to be miserable and cry. Sounds like a bunch of kids who maybe got too much game time from their parents

[@optiTHOMAS]

Yep! Like just about every game for the past 5-10 years has been aggressively pushing competitive, pro scene, and Esports so damn much! A lot of times I just like to chill and enjoy games, but there's so many games that just become try hard, toxic, sweat fests that sap the fun out of stuff. Especially in shooters. I feel it brings a certain ego or a "I'm better than you, I'm gonna prove myself!" Kind of attitude in many modern games. Like, bro, it's only game! 😆👍🏻

[@g80gzt]

"if you're so pro why don't you learn the map then"

[@ZER-cr4dm]

This, 343 has tried lots of fun maps but the community seems to not like things that get put of their comfort zone that's why 343 stopped creating asymmetrical weird fun to explore maps, they just started making arenas and no one bothered them, to be fair 343 has tried lots of things that Bungie would never dare to implement and that's why people hate 343 as a whole, because it's trying to improve and get out of Halo fans comfort zone, but I cant imagine another Halo with same mechanics as Halo reach that would be boring as hell and out dated

[@sirmerc297]

I in a way hope that Infinite has some maps like Chairon or Boarding Action simply because of the pure chaos. Especially when it comes to custom games, they are just so fun when no one cares. Even online, I find myself laughing and enjoying my time on those maps. Now not every map should be designed like that, but it would be nice if there were a few. Keep them in casual modes if it has too.

[@spacecraftcarrier4135]

This. Halo 1 has arguably the most diverse maps ever in any Halo game. - Arena style maps like Wizard, Derelict, etc. - Crazy ass vertical maps like Boarding Action, Prisoner & Hang Em High - Batshit nuts map like Chiron TL34 - "Hallway" maps like Longest & Rat Race - Wide-open Vehicular maps from Blood Gulch to Sidewinder to Gephyrophobia. No other Halo game honestly comes as close in offering the batshit variety of playstyles that Halo 1's total map lineup (including the Halo 1 PC maps), offers.

[@BambiTrout]

I definitely think variety is the key. Basic 3 lane perfectly balanced maps are great for being sweaty, climbing ranked, maxing your k/d, etc. but they just get so boring after a while, because once you've played one, you've kind of played all of them. You need those batshit maps in between to provide a more interesting place to just piss about and break up the monotony, and to help you appreciate the balanced ones a bit more. Most shooters that people praise for great map design have a variety of maps, because if every map is a variation on a theme, people are automatically just gonna rank them, but if each map has its own purpose and identity, then each map can shine without needing to compete with each other. Like in Halo 3 no one is pitting Valhalla against Sandbox, because they offer completely different gaming experiences, but when it comes to Heretic vs Assembly, there's a clear better or worse because both maps offer similar gameplay experiences with similar aesthetics.

[@hirotrum6810]

3 LANE DESIGN GO BRRRRRRRR

[@jacoblyman9441]

Now that we have had time to play with Infinite, I am surprised we have at least a few quirks like the loot caves on Fragmentation that you have to hack into with your AI. Maybe not quite a return to the quirks of old maps, but its certainly a new unique idea for Halo.

[@chef4025]

Didn't happen. Come get your symmetrical 3 lane box

[@parkerkoch4220]

I personally would love to see more attack and defense style maps integrated, it was what drew me into halo 3, me and my sisters picking attack and defense sides and messing around with customs are some of my favorite memories

[@replica4194]

It's so silly that the custom game options don't even exist in recent titles. At least H5 BTB finally has it, but only after alot of work by the community in Forge.

[@Pop_Shepski]

Aww yeahh Halo 3 was basically meant for head on battles from different power spots. I miss playing matches like that

[@ATAGChozo]

I remember how baffled I was when I first played Chiron on MCC. I found it incredibly confusing to navigate (and still do) but it has slowly become a favorite of mine for CE *because* of how chaotic it is.

[@optiTHOMAS]

Yeah dude! So many fun crazy and maps! What's even more fun, is that map with Fiesta slayer! True chaos! 😆👍🏻

[@lukepauls8847]

ie. Panic firing the rocket launcher at point blank as someone comes out of a teleporter 😂

[@GaryJojo]

As far as fps games go, I would say the effect is permanent unfortunately. It's most likely why we will never have playable elites again in Halo. Honestly, whenever I see a post regarding playable elites, the biggest argument come from those who say their hit boxes are bad and that it's bad for competitive play. I honestly believe competitive stuff should be seen as separate from main games, and should have it's own set of playlists and maps that don't interfere with a game having some life put into it, and some maps that really show off the game as a whole, instead of all maps generally feeling and playing the same. But going that route either splits the fanbase or is essentially making an investment for making competitive separate and just hoping that it works. It's probably a conversation Halo 5 teams had so they just went full in making the game purely for competitive scene and everything else second. I can understand why, but it's what made me give up on the game extremely early in it's life and just stick to the original Halos.

[@Echo_Underscore]

The Elite hit boxes are whatever, i don’t like them because I don’t like filthy xeno scum

[@MrPronGogh93]

Playable elites will not be a thing anymore, not only because of their hit boxes, but also because the majority of the player base will always go for the Spartans, making their implementation a waste of resources

[@jackcolson4745]

@@MrPronGogh93 The whole very reason people go for Spartans is because they are given more customization. If elites were given the same amount then more players would play as elites.

[@thed3adp1x3l9]

@@MrPronGogh93 thats not true at all people go for elites less because after halo 3 they lacked customization and reach introduced playlists that stopped people using them altogether.

[@travisstewart627]

Playable elites will most definitely be in a battle pass or something at some point, but yea def not right away.

[@Loansome_]

Reminds me of the "competitive" maps in Smash where it's just flat ground and maybe a platform above, and that's it. Forgot how much fun the other 90% of the stages were.

[@MistahFox]

In smash's case though, fun unbalanced maps make up 99% of the maps in the game. The handful designed to be competitive and boring haven't prevented uncompetitive maps from existing.

[@Loansome_]

They haven't, but considering how everybody online today views Smash, it is mostly seen as something competitive. We worry about the characters added and their movesets, with legal stages, focused on the pros and tournaments, etc etc and totally forgot to just mess with the game. When I go to my friends' houses we only play with "fair" rulesets and try to outplay each other vs just letting the game play itself. I realize that last bit just sounds like something from my experience and doesn't account for everybody, but it illustrates how Smash players/fans have now been conditioned into playing or thinking a certain way.

[@lapotato9140]

the thing is that playing on a quacky halo map is NEVER going to put you in as much as a disadvantage as you will be playing little mac on great cave offensive, or ness on fourside. the case of smash's stages is MAGNITUDES more asymmetrical than anything seen here.

[@LB-py9ig]

@@Loansome_ And it's a disaster, even Sakurai thinks so. So much so he added random tripping to Brawl just to spite the "serious" players. Besides, competitive Smash players hate every Smash game other than Melee.

[@Doctor_Pazuzu]

Bringing in the ice-cold take of I like both. I hope Infinite has an equal amount of silly maps and more basic "pro-style" maps. There are times I wanna play on a midship, and sometimes I wanna play on a Boarding Action. I like variety.

[@koslegoman]

"Balance" killed Halo arena for me. I love maps that are "unfair" , it gives teams something to fight over. If every good spot on the map is easily countered, it's no fun for me.

[@MorningstarJinn]

Strongly agree

[@gogousa6661]

I love asymmetrical maps for objective games. The best maps for me are The Pit, Narrows, Valhalla, Heretic, Avalanche, etc because they’re symmetrical(just about) Top mid is always up for grabs on these maps and that’s a lot of the fun and teamwork trying to hold map control.

[@Echo_Underscore]

I strongly agree too

[@PinkSpaceDinosaur]

In my opinion no map is unfair as long as power weapons can be controlled equally from a starting spawn

[@john-ek9gv]

That's why I love halo reachs "boneyard" because blue team (i think its blue) have an advantage of high ground but thats what makes being red so fun because you have to fight your way through and take control

[@Sonof_DRN2004]

I wish Chiron was made so each room was a different colour, mostly different colours maybe 2 at least the same just to make call outs easier and to make memory easier.

[@glowaru]

If that happened, it would also be good to have different colored teleporters to tell you which colored room you're about to enter.

[@lanceleonard3079]

@@glowaru I'm reading that comment as refering to the teleporter energy field and not the frames typically around them. If that's the case, then I think coloring the effects wouldn't be nessisary. Coloring the frame itself however could be used to help with navigation.

[@glowaru]

​@@lanceleonard3079 Yeah I was thinking of recoloring the entire teleporter energy field but I guess that works too. I think I'd prefer my idea though.

[@guidestone1392]

@@glowaru Numbering teleporters according to their destination would be more accessible especially for the colorblind.

[@glowaru]

@@guidestone1392 Colors plus numbers/patterns is the best of both worlds.

[@existentialselkath1264]

it would be interesting to have some extra asymmetric 'interesting' maps for social multiplayer, while the competitive mode is left with the 'good' maps

[@aceskeletonne7446]

asymmetric maps like high ground and zanzibar work well with modes like assault, and of course theres invasion which people have wanted to come back for years

[@IanThatMetalBassist]

Boarding Action is incredibly fun when you mod the gravity to be super low. I think that was actually the original plan for the map.

[@adenjones1802]

I always though that map was missing some low grav stuff

[@SoIstice]

Iirc the original plan for the map was to have jetpacks which of course let you jet pack between the sides.

[@KrispyRootbeer]

I've definitely noticed that the competitive scene in gaming has made maps and game modes in recent years a bit more bland and generic. The competitive vibe games emit can be frustrating at times I just want to play casually. I hope map design and game modes start to see more experimentations with more moving pieces in maps that change as you play with game modes utilizing that feature as well.

[@Spartan1719]

The fixation is absolutely permanent. Everything halo has done for over a decade now has been judged based on competitive play. It would a massive shift in the player base to change that.

[@legendarymasterchief7620]

I guess this explains why I’ve felt no maps onward really felt fun in the way CE did.

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

I can think of a couple games that still embrace the madness. Those being Titanfall 2 and team fortress 2. And I guess OverWatch now that I think about it. then there's Apex Legends. Maybe I'm off base I just feel like those games offer a lot of bizarre variety

[@chudthug]

I love tf2 but hate tf2

[@philipb7400]

@@chudthug I disagree, I love tf2 but hate tf2

[@Figurebutgaming]

@@philipb7400 personally, I love tf2 but hate tf2

[@MrFrankBill]

I think tf2 is much better than tf2

[@Echo_Underscore]

tf2 is a staple of design, while tf2 isn’t

[@xLeeH1]

I miss the variety in maps. Honestly I'd lose my shit (in a good way) to play a map like Chiron again. It's good to have good maps, but they don't seem as good without bad, or "bad" maps to help make the good more appreciable.

[@SockEater4293]

You can't defend bad maps by saying "it's unique" as then you could defend any map, even ones that play awful either way. I do think there needs to be diversity in the amount of maps but there is a reason why people think boarding action is bad while Zanzibar is good even though both of them are unique.

[@SaltyKoalaBear]

What gives an individual the authority to determine what a good and bad map is?

[@SquallyDaBeanz]

@@SaltyKoalaBear Of course the mad scientist of map design himself would say this, but it is a very true and valid point :) You of course know my stance on this, but I wanna throw this out there for others: I like to use the metaphor that map design is like cooking. Everyone has their own tastes, and there are different way to make the same thing, but there are also some fundamental rules that should almost always be followed. Nobody wants a burned cake.

[@gogousa6661]

@@SaltyKoalaBear You never heard Veto Veto Veto Veto Veto for the Good maps. Looking at you Snowbound.

[@SockEater4293]

@@SaltyKoalaBear They're own opinions, what do those things don't exist anymore?

[@jacobscott6133]

@@SquallyDaBeanz I like burnt cake.

[@plaidpvcpipe3792]

This really speaks to why Halo CE multiplayer is one of the most fun experiences in gaming at the moment.

[@PenguinLotion522]

the day they stop compromising so much for competitive is the day i start loving halo again

[@SomniaCE]

We can pretend its because they compromise for comp but when a vast majority of the maps aren't even designed for comp 4v4 I don't see how the argument holds water. But then again I fail to see how anyone can look at maps like Ghost Town or High Ground and say they aren't some of the most linear and boring maps ever. Lockout is an example of a good but boring map and yet its one of the most dynamic in the series thanks to all of the ways to move around the map both in intended and unintended ways coupled with multiple power positions.

[@SomniaCE]

I mean shit, is there a single map in Halo Reach that anyone even likes? Nothing there was made for competitive and yet every single map was boring and just godawful to play. Same can go for Halo 4 and most of Halo 3. Halo CE didn't have maps like it had because of the want for casual play, it had maps like that because it was made by 2 people in the span of a couple weeks, so no time was given to iterate on design.

[@SuggestedPigeon]

Pros love saying "adapt" then demand the same like four maps over and over

[@rokor3578]

Yup lmao "get good" but not on that map or that game mode or with those weapons.

[@MajoraZ]

I both agree and disagree with the core premise: I agree that over time, quirky gimmicky maps with unique concepts and layouts became less common, but I think that "Verticality", which you briefly touched on but didn't spend a lot of time dissecting, sort of bucks that trend. Both CE and ESPECIALLY Halo 2 has a lot of vertically drive maps with dense geometry and platforming: Lockout, Prisoner, Sanctuary, Turf, Chill Out, Ascension, Damnation, Derelict, Elongation, Ivory Tower, hell arguably even Chiron and Boarding Action all have so much verticality to them that you're almost moving up or down as much as you are side to side, and many of them, especially in Halo 2, have the sort of "Boring" layout you describe. But I think those layouts are quite interesting, rather then boring, and they almost entirely go away after Halo 2. Firstly to address the later, yes, in say, Halo 3, you have Guardian, Ghost Town, and Assembly... but that's it, excluding remakes. Wheras a lot of CE and virtually every 4v4 map in H2 are heavily vertical, it';s almost entirely absent as a key design trait from H3's maps, and it's not that much better in Reach. Like, yeah, Construct, Epitah, High Ground, etc HAVE verticality, but the points of actual vertical mobiility are spread far out, they aren't the same sort of combat platforming jungle gyms that Lockout or Turf are. That's also why I reject that they're "boring". The layouts are simple, yes, but there is an insane amount of potential pathways across the map due to the amount of platforming and vertical interplay you can preform: you can jump up or down on platforms and walkways, you can use trickjumps to access even more options, etc. There are SO many nookes aned crannies and elevated points on Turf in particular to flank and ambush people. Even ON Guardian or Ghost Town, it's not really like that, and their vertical platforming points still feel a tad "stretched out". It's only in Halo 5 where that style of map truly came back in force. Yes, the maps feel samey and I do think there should have been BTB maps and a few quirky ones, but as I explained, even if quirky maps gradually went away over the course of the series, Vertical Maps I think were only really around for CE and especially 2 and 5, and took a big absence for 3, Reach, and 4. In this way, I think H5's maps are a return to form, and have more trickjumps and neat traversal and platforming options then even 2's did thanks to thrust, hover, and slide (which I stand by were good additions that added skilljumps and meshed with Halo's emphasis on platforming). This is, of course, in SPITE of the fact that Halo 5 has sprint: Sprint does stretch maps out, but I think it's overstated as a harmful impact, since clearly sprint's impacts alone is outweighed by the general map design philosophy and things like density of walkways and cover and platforms; since 5's maps are absolutely as or more dense and platforming heavy as 2's. Ironically, 3's maps, even without sprint, feel "stretched out".

[@alexfrost2799]

That's a very interesting take and one that I agree with. It's interesting how you note that Halo 5's maps are the closest to a 'return to form' in terms of map verticality that Halo has had in a long time. Trick jumping came back in force in Halo 5 with the use of slide boosting, spring jumping, and clambering on invisible ledges. And it's one of several aspects of Halo 5's multiplayer that I find more enjoyable than most previous Halo games. My favorite Halo map of all time is actually Plaza from Halo 5 because it has a ton of neat trick jumps and verticality, is asymmetrical, and plays really well in competetive and casual gametypes. The map only becomes problematic on Swat when people get spawn camped at the base of the grav lift.

[@mattg8116]

@@alexfrost2799 YES, thank you for pointing this out. I feel so alone in simply enjoying many aspects of H5's mechanics and maps.

[@poorlydrawnrobot4218]

Sword base was kinda vertical, but I agree.

[@wesleynichols1873]

I really hope Halo Infinite has at least some unique maps, I don't want a ton of sweaty arena style maps. I want an elephant, I want to see the enemy and not be able to shoot them, I want teleporters, and I also want ai in forge. Thank you and goodnight.

[@jordanfischler00]

I fell out of the fps genre because I realized I was always getting frustrated any time I was losing to the point it wasn't fun. Games have been so fixated on play competitively over the last several years that turning your brain off and having fun gets you yelled at by teammates. It's caused me to pick up on more co-operative games like monster Hunter and warframe

[@delilas2398]

10:32 I love how you stuck yourself with that grenade

[@jshsnipa]

There are so many things where halo fans unreasonably demand for both things. Like sprint and no sprint playlists, or both types of a weapon and so on. However, I think that having both competitive simple maps and quirky fun maps is reasonable and actually very beneficial. Have the competitive maps and social maps. They don’t need to be mutually exclusive but if one map doesn’t work in competitive, they can just remove it from the cycle. So far, all the maps we’ve seen seem like competitive simple maps, even if they look cool. If they don’t add dev made “fun” maps, hopefully some great forge maps can come along and spruce up the social playlist

[@thebrickccentric3728]

CE's map Boarding Action was originally designed for the jetpacks that the devs were experimenting with, so that Boarding Action would have been the "jetpack map". I think it just further illustrates your point that maps with a specific gimmick or feature built in were the thing to do a decade or two ago, but that's not what people gravitate towards today. Awesome thoughtful video!

[@-Fozzy-]

I think they should go back to the old maps in social gamemodes, it makes it way more fun, but in ranked they should use today's style of maps

[@andrewbeeco967]

With halo infinite being a service. I could see a future expansion containing asymmetrical/feature/dynamic maps being added if we request it.

[@TheRoseReaper]

God Chiron is a prime example of what map design should be like imo. Chaotic, random, experimental and most importantly fun. Who needs callouts when you can just laugh at how turned around everyone is?

[@lotgc]

Chairon is not a bad map! The pros just can't handle the neutron style! 😎

[@theragingsparten1107]

I feel like the fan-made forge maps that make their way into social (sometimes) fill that void of quirky, "fun", maps. I do hope infinite has a mix of fun maps with quirks and competitive style maps, because they both have a place in FPS shooters in general. To make it work and not have players complain about its "bad" map design, i feel like those maps have to be, for lack of a better term, marketed as a "fun" map. How they could go about doing this, i dont know.

[@chastermief839]

in my experience forge maps have to go for one of two extremes-- either completely off the wall minigame stuff like Duck Hunt or Speed Halo, or they're just boring box-and-ramp arenas like the dev maps. Forge maps have to gain traction in the community and that means they have to distill what a player is looking for and provide a pure version of that playstyle. A forge map that has a goofy gimmick but is still made for slayer & CTF just won't thrive in the community, because a casual customs player will prefer something crazier and a competitive player will prefer something more focused. dev maps come with more assurance and confidence that the gimmick can still make for a fun semi competitive experience. A custom map that looks like snowbound (with its mixture of tight corridors and shield walls, contrasted with the open field dominated by the single ghost on the map) would never get spread around in the community very much. And indeed, not long into halo 3's lifespan the shield doors were removed and the ghost was replaced with a mongoose. dev maps can also include stuff that just isn't (or wasn't) possible with forge, stuff like zanzibar's giant wheel, high ground's door, terminal's train, sandtrap's elephants, or backwash's fog.

[@tristanskywalker1998]

Rainbow 6 Siege is a good non-Halo example of this. When it first came out, it had a good variety of maps and game modes that made the ranked competitive play fun and interesting. Over time, the focus has been shifting more and more to making the game an e-sport and as a result, there's only one game mode and only a handful of the most boring maps in ranked. It's just not fun to play anymore.

[@Sabasanosiss]

Games just need to be fun. Like, all of the games that just focus hard on the competitive side just end up making communities that hate them. Talk to any League or Overwatch player, "I fucking hate this game, I play it all the time."

[@jefenovato4424]

Pro gamers be like: "Fun not allowed" That's why I only played overwatch over a month, was boring and even casual playlist was tryhard.

[@tomroz4051]

I miss the quirks. I also don’t see why a map like Chiron couldn’t be competitive. In fact you HAVE to learn the map inside in out to do well on it so it actually raises the skill ceiling. You have to be an adaptable player to switch up your play style on a map like that.

[@Gabe7Gal]

This right here is getting to the heart of the issue, the real problem with modern competitive gaming. It's the idea that there is a specific kind of competitive game design, which usually involves making everything bland. But the irony is that this kind of game design is is LESS competitive because it lower's the skill demand. The reason why this type of design has been paraded as "competitive" is be cause pro players don't even want their game's skill ceiling to be too high. They want the learning process to be more straightforward then it should be. At the end of the day I don't believe in approaching game design using the concepts of "competitive" or "casual". A good pvp game needs to be balanced, yet complex and demand skill from the players, all while still being fun and rewarding. It's that simple.

[@ThatGuyKazz]

I think a mix of both is definitely needed and welcome. IMO some of the most fun maps to play on are the quirky asymmetric maps like Last Resort and High Ground but they are not great for really competitive play.

[@hyperdimensionbliss]

CE players with Cairon: This is a teleporter. Modern comp players: Dear God... CE: There's more. Comp: *No.*

[@wisecrack3461]

I think the most important part of a map is having "landmarks" that are fun places simply to exist in. Consider that animal enclosures usually have small areas solely intended for enrichment, as a place to be "different" than the rest of the map. Consider Nightfire's legendary Skyrail map: it has a roof to each building, a bar area, a deck, the titular rails making their rounds, the interior rooms, the behind cliff areas, the rocks to play peekaboo with. These are mostly all interesting rooms to be in when just alone in the map, fun to navigate and exist in. The amount of posts about people saying they'd love to BE in a map and read a book in a specific corner of it speaks to this idea. Good map design from a fun perspective is 60% about player enrichment. Name a single location on Bazaar in infinite that comes to mind first and there's a good chance you think of the power weapon spawn with the fun vents that lead down into another room that breaks off from the color palette used for the outside. I believe this is a small part of why vents are so popular as a tool in videogame level design, due to their innate similarity to hamster style tunnels, alongside the more important fact that it's easy videogame shorthand for "Go in this direction to the next section of level we want you in". Analyze any set of maps and you'll usually find that the most popular casual option is a map that manages to have a cozy place to relax in.

[@jktwice8235]

Just because a map is unique doesn’t mean it can’t be balanced. Zanzibar, despite its “uniqueness”, is a popular map years later because both teams have tools to be able to claim victory. I don’t have actual stats, but I never felt like one side had a distinctive advantage over the other. Yes, on One Flag the defending team can simply camp the flag, but that’s why a Rocket Launcher exists on the map. So you can pick individuals who camp inside and punish them for not grabbing power weapons. Another “unique” map that reached competitive play was Hang Em High, although it wasn’t exactly intentionally made to play like it does. Nading weapons is what that map is about, it’s like CE’s Lockout in a sense of how much players turtle, but at its core it was an experimental map with large open spaces for 8-16 players. It tested player knowledge more than it did reactions and that fed into the strategies that players employed on the map. There’s also plenty of boring maps that play terribly. Colossus from H2 suffers from the BR having too much range on the map to where one can cross map people easily. Backwash simply doesn’t have enough visibility. Derelict is another circle map but suffers in anything other than doubles and FFA due to its craptacular spawns and default weapon layout. Desolation didn’t account for 2’s spawn system and weapon sandbox and the BR duels led to snowballing because the losing team couldn’t move from the hallways and bottom floor. Halo 4 has Solace, one of the most boring maps that gets a bad rap because it feels like a Halo 3 Forge map put into Halo 4 and sprint isn’t accommodated properly. There’s no flow on that map whatsoever. That’s not to say you aren’t onto something. I agree that there needs to be a variety of safe, high level minded maps mixed with more experimental options to support a wider range of gamemodes and experiences for different players to have. Foundation in Halo 2 for example sucks balls on any mode except for Zombies because of its cramped corridors in the flag rooms. High Ground wasn’t ever meant to be competitively viable but it’s easily one of the best asymmetrical 4v4 maps in the game because of its options for attacking players to get in the base. There’s a need for unique maps, but they should strive to be balanced first and foremost at the least. Spire is a shitshow depending on who gets Banshee in Phase 3. That’s why no one plays it, not because it’s “unique”.

[@DharkDemonBlade]

I feel like Fragmentation in Infinite has found a nice balance between being competitive like how places with two bases such as Valhalla are. But at the same time allows for well-fun ways to fight. Another very small thing they did with Domination and CTF is having the flag and objective points actually randomized.

[@bobatea321]

I’d like to see a 50/50 split in terms of map making 50% good, balanced maps and 50% devs do whatever they want

[@ZeeroDubs]

I freaking LOVED Boarding Action!!!!

[@delilas2398]

I always felt like Halo 5s maps are made out of glass. As in perfectly flat surfaces, rounded edges and no flexible movement. In older maps you could often alter the enviroment a little by shooting something or pressing a button, but in Halo 5 nothing ever moves. I do like many of the maps for the reasons you described, but they certainly feel different from older games.

[@HeWhoComments]

Halo CE’s Chiron map was chaotic because of its weird map design. Hang ‘Em High was awesome because of the natural competition for the high ground of blue base.

[@phantomninja01]

Going back through MCC I realize I had forgotten how good some of the Halo 4 maps were, especially compared to how bland the Halo 5 maps are. In H5 all the maps are basically just square or circular arenas because it tried to cater so hard to the Pro scene, and they basically lost all personality

[@gogousa6661]

Halo 4 had Good maps. Like Haven, Haven, or even Haven.

[@emmanuelferguson]

I personally think while this topic is quite thought provoking and enjoyable to discuss, it really doesn't need to be. You can have fun, non-competitive maps and boring, but balanced maps in any game since the competitive scene will choose they see fit while the people seeking fun have their picks as well.

[@emilylefebvre5132]

I think the focus on competitive play has really sucked the fun out of most modern shooters for me. I loved the trilogy because it wasn't crammed down my throat, competitive players got to play their boring sanded down version of the game while I got to have fun with my diverse sandbox. I really hope Infinite goes back to this choice players had, instead of trying to fold the casual game to play more like the competitive modes

[@ORLY911]

The push for competitive everything ruined a lot of FPS multiplayer for me. Halo 4 was such a drag to play partially because of how lifeless and uninteresting the maps were. I can't name you a single map from that game. Some of my favorite maps from older titles were asymmetrical, Terminal probably being my favorite.

[@tacoloco6080]

This is why I roll my eyes when people complain that battlefield maps won't be competitive because of quirk dynamic events like levolution or weather effects, like bruh it's freaking battlefield.

[@Gabe7Gal]

Nobody says that though. Everyone knows you can't have a competitive Battlefield no matter what, because of the team sizes.

[@themoon7903]

@@Gabe7Gal I have seen people say that. Mostly non battlefield players

[@Gabe7Gal]

@@themoon7903 I've played all the Battlefields from Bad Company 2 onwards. I'm a Battlefield player. What do actually mean by "competitive"? Maybe you're not talking about what I'm thinking.

[@51TD0wN]

This is also why there's only like 4 different pickup weapons per map in Halo 5. Also why the shotguns only spawn with 5 shells, and the storm rifle now only has 50 shots, and spawns in the middle of the map like it's a rocket launcher. Cause god forbid you actually try to get kills with something that isn't a precision weapon. The pros are like, screw gameplay variety, magnum and sniper only. This obsession with "fairness" just prevents any of the wacky chaotic moments that made me love Halo.

[@Walkintakintoaster]

great video and I agree. I actually disagree that we, the casual gamers, have caused the shift, but instead pro players that made their livelihood off the game. When halo 5 came out, 343 said that they contracted pro teams to help test their maps in order to inspire confidence in their map design. The problem is that pro players don't like variability because more chaos means less control and therefor it's harder to beat others with your own skill. One thing you haven't considered about halo 5 (or maybe it's just not in the video) is how 343 added MANY community made maps into their social rooster of games. It's possible that 343 looked at this issue and thought "well we can make the pro maps for our pro players that can us money in the long run and then we can have the community make their own maps and game-types with forge, that way they can't blame us for 'bad' social maps because they're the ones making them"

[@ZER-cr4dm]

For sweaty "pro" players you can add to competitive matches a feature to ban maps like R6, that way 343 could once again try and make asymmetrical different but fun maps and if you look for comp or for tournaments you can ban the ones you dont like or the more difficult for you, and just play the typical arenas "pros" like, instead of adding boring maps just because a "pro" ask you to, to make their job easier

[@_metzger8248]

Back with another banger

[@dutch_asocialite]

I guess this is why I really enjoyed playing Duck Game with my brothers, all of the official maps were very very eccentric in one way or another to varying degrees. I recall one was literally just like Kiron (or however you spell it) where it was just teleporters filled with Roast Duck guns that required the utmost attention to not only not accidentally run into one of the projectiles but also to ensure that, when you shot a projectile, you didn't launch yourself back into a teleporter and get roasted. And then there's another that was a floating island loaded only with net guns, which in the case of two player matches usually ended up as a draw as we both picked up and shot the net guns at the same time. Another was another floating island but with a room with randomizer blocks, with everyone spawning on top of them so that if someone went down and activated one of the boxes they'd be at a severe disadvantage if it came up with something actually lethal. Another still basically amounted to trench warfare, loaded up with Knight helmets and laser guns behind crenulations, with a little stool behind the wall that you stand on to expose your armoured head and weapon to fire down range and crouch to protect from incoming lasers. Sure, there were some pretty basic maps that just amounted to verticality, but they were still pretty fun with various select weapons, tools and power weapons situated in various places to make getting to them a real race of surreptitiousness and betrayal in an effort for domination. There was a construction map where one of my brothers would always try to get the sledge hammer while the rest of us just shot at each other with handguns or lobbed grenades and when he got it it was still a 50/50 chance for him to win, because the hammer launched you whenever you swung it, especially in mid air, and potentially overshoot your target, enabling them to reengage and cap you... if they didn't miss, of course. God, that game was so fun.

[@rxdhxrns]

Man I loved maps like Exile, Sandtrap, Blood Gulch and Zanzibar. I hope Infinite will have maps as iconic as them instead of another "good" map like the ones from Halo 5.

[@KevinKoolx]

A always feel what makes a good map is the ability to every area in it useful to the player rather than concentrate movement to the middle

[@AscendHyperion]

And that is VERY hard to pull off too!

[@chastermief839]

i've noticed that maps that try to blend light vehicle combat with standard arena combat usually aren't as popular. I'm thinking of maps like Ascension, old Snowbound, High Ground. Halo 1 and Halo Reach both lacked these kinds of map, but they were always some of my favorites. They're not full on BTB, if you're on foot you're still having a blast, but there's usually one or two vehicles that are treated more like power weapons rather than an entirely different space for play.

[@Mattznick]

Halo was at it's best when it was pure chaos. It's called social playlist but it doesn't really feel like a causal game type most times. For MCC and Infinite i would like to see more wacky game types instead of just the normal slayer variants. Like gimme the btb chaos

[@jonathand.4088]

This reminds me of Smash Brothers. The most fun and exciting maps aren't used in serious competition because they have too many random elements, are too big, or too small.

[@LB-py9ig]

Then you get the puritans who refuse to play anything other than Melee because Sakurai always considered Smash a fun party game that was never intended to be taken seriously and kept true to that vision in subsequent installments.

[@twospooky]

This analogy works for the explanation of why Modern Warfare 2 MP was so fun. The most unbalanced game ever but the most fun ever.

[@Azrael_Equinox]

I really hope Boarding Action returns sometime in Infinite with a "Zero G" section. With some updates and the new equipment it would be fun af.

[@traviscot5554]

whats the oven and toaster specs? highest quality halo content i can find

[@optiTHOMAS]

I'm just so tired of games pushing competitive, pro play, and Esports so much! It's so played out and expected in like every game now and it just makes things kinda sweaty, toxic, and not fun at times. Like, I just love to chill and play games and I feel like pro scene shouldn't be the only main focus. I miss a lot of the old style maps and maps that were different than just human/military facilities, warehouses and structures. We need more covenant, forunner, nature, and civilian lived style areas! That'd be rad! For me I LOVE Valhalla and I think that might be my favorite map. Also, Beaver Creek, high ground and some of the more BTB maps are my Jams! It's beautiful, cool setting, pretty big, and good fun! Loved many of halo 3s maps. Good stuff and good times! ❤😁👍🏻

[@thieving_fox_]

I really hope that eventually competitive loses its grip on gameplay. I miss the stupid unique maps

[@gogousa6661]

Just because competition gets the spotlight doesn’t mean casual isn’t thriving. With Custom Browsers and Forge in Infinite I think the Casual side is more likely to be satisfied than the competitive side based on the last 11 years of halo “competitive”

[@Zarth32]

the low gravity areas in reach didnt die after that covenant map. it was reintroduced into DLC space station map.

[@ArcticZearoTTV]

Here before this blows up!!! Love these vids.

[@firebla2e]

I hope Halo Infinite has a combination of “good” maps and fun maps to please both causal and competitive players

[@Metal_Maoist]

I really enjoy Launch Site, it's got way more vehicles than you would expect from a non-BTB map and it's fun to drive around there

[@firebla2e]

@@Metal_Maoist I especially enjoy one flag CTF and fiesta because of how chaotic it get

[@theravenlordmasterofthevib8991]

I feel like a lot of comp sweats have forgotten that video games are supposed to be fun

[@Nichi-Ji]

Chiron is hands down my favorite map in the whole series but everybody seems to hate it. Guess most folks can’t appreciate the teleporter madness

[@HydratedBeans]

Finally someone said it. I hate the MLG sweat maps. They’re zero fun

[@atomic4939]

I don't think it's necessarily the devs fault for this, shooters have naturally evolved into a ultra competitive space over the years. It's also the nature of online multiplayer. When you're playing with your friends locally or online, your just having fun with your buds, simple as that. But playing with strangers you don't know, there is a tendency to be more malicious, and intense; to treat it more seriously than it is. Because how dare this random dude teabag me, does he think he's BETTER THAN ME!? So when people play online it's less about "fun" and more about being better than everyone else. That's why people care so much about having "balanced" maps, they want to know that when they got a kill, or were killed themselves, it was purely down to skill alone, not weird and unusual map design.

[@shadowthoughts7959]

I think a playlist of 4-5 "diverse" maps for fun-objective and auto-slayer gametypes would remedy this; allow people to get an original or experimental experience in some maps designed to have fun on, rather than simply won or lost on.

[@bottlecapbrony366]

Chiron will always be a great map to me, along with all of the other CE maps

[@joelcomer]

Can I just say personally, that desert map we saw in the multiplayer trailer is by far my favorite from what I’ve seen of halo infinite. The environment looks beautiful.

[@jackcolson4745]

Home slice, this is why a difference exists between comp and social playlists.

[@sumpyori]

did you watch the video? there are different playlists but its the same maps. If every map ends up being 3 main sightlines with verticality it gets boring and forces people to be competitive anyway.

[@gogousa6661]

@@sumpyori The competitive playlists filter out the bad maps. Sometimes the only reason people play competitive is to guarantee avoiding bad maps.

[@jackmcmorrow9397]

it's also why nobody plays the competitive playlists. Its just not as fun as Social mode.

[@jackcolson4745]

@@jackmcmorrow9397 Fun isn't the priority in comp. Fair and balanced is. You go to social to have fun and comp to play sweaty.

[@jackcolson4745]

@@sumpyori Yes I did watch the entire video. It's why I made my comment. Comp can filter out the bad and unfair maps, that's why there is a distinction between social and comp playlists. Comp doesn't have to be 'fun' it has to be fair.

[@onewanderingbee]

I've actually been toying with this idea when building my own maps. For instance, there's a man-cannon in a map I'm doing on H2A that takes you from the ground to a high-center position, BUT if you hit the man cannon at a weird angle, running at it from the side and catching the edge of it's propulsion limit, you can instead get a very high "jump" towards one side or the other, avoiding the center building entirely. It's difficult to replicate, so much so that you can't even do it consistently, but it made me realize that maybe I should start thinking a little more along the lines of unique map skill masteries: sort of like little quirks in the maps that only work on that map. Things that aren't that useful anywhere else. I mean, I already build almost exclusively asymetric maps. I think my future maps will start to have these gimmicks because...it's just fun.

[@bootyjenkins1265]

Games trying to make themselves competitive sucks the fun out of it, they become what’s meta instead of what’s fun.

[@OneCSeven]

The asymmetrical maps in H3 were my favorite. Last Resort, High Ground, Ghost Town, were just *chef's kiss*

[@RS-ny8my]

Good maps and interesting maps are NOT mutually exclusive. It is definitely possible to make maps that are good, interesting, and fun. And the reason why the maps are called ‘good’ in the first place is usually because good design philosophies in place bring out the best and most fun aspects of Halo’s gameplay. Yes, I agree that some of the competitive favorites are boring, but many are not. Think of a map like Zanzibar. It can lend itself to competitive play, but it’s also an extremely dynamic and unique map with distinct map elements.

[@Astronopolis]

We will never see another Coagulation, Battle Creek, Ascension, Sidewinder, Zanzibar, or friggin Lockout again. RIP

[@phanto6599]

I think a game that PERFECTLY captured quirky, yet fun and fair competition in their maps was Pixel Gun 3D. All of the maps told a story and had fun quirky gameplay. Every match felt unique. Each one had certain spots and crevices that made the map interesting.

[@easygoinowen4304]

Love this vid. I'm all for old school fun. Perfect Dark was rammed with weird maps. I want to see it come back!

[@Cameron088]

Honestly, adding back these "Bad" maps like Boarding Action and limiting the game to AR starts, I think we wouldn't just go back to a truly balanced Halo, but a Fun and balanced Halo

[@AngleFan1]

I agree and disagree with some points you made. Yeah we're not going to see Chiron in a competitive tournament or anything because even though it was fun there's stuff that's considered unfair such as getting a lead and camping at a teleport and killing someone as soon as they come through with almost no counter play if you're down in score. But something like Lockout or Zanzibar is asymmetrical and highly revered in the Halo community. Even though Chiron had some fun in it it's not even just about esports, a lot of people who play online want something that is considered both fun and balanced and people online not just esports would probably say they wouldn't want to play on a modern day chiron. But I do agree that there is a lot of bland mapmaking probably in big part due to trying to be "balanced".

[@frost_6836]

I think this is a very good point on how the modern pro/e-sports scenes have influenced the FPS genre and Halo, and the map designs reflect that as pointed out in the video. Recently someone posted a collection of top-down views of maps from the various Halo games, and looking at them, I was sort of struck by how the majority of the maps from Halo 5 looked incredibly similar in design - not thematically, but mechanically. Relatively mid-sized, vaguely blob-shaped arenas that have a number of lanes or open areas designed to promote conflict between teams at specific points. Compared to maps from CE, such as Chiron TL-34, Prisoner, or Damnation, for better or for worse each of these 3 maps are incredibly diverse in their physical layout and the way teams/players engage with them, and strategies for one can't really be applied to the others. I think what I'm trying to get at, and what Hyperion sort of falls short of saying in the video, is that in 2021 FPS culture has inherited the "pro" mindset so much that the "fun" or "unique" map designs of the past have fallen by the wayside because they're not conducive to e-sports gameplay, and by extension, the sweaty characteristics that casual matchmaking has inherited. If maps are fully symmetrical or balanced around e-sports gameplay, then these maps are seen as bad or poor, and I think represents a shift of FPS multiplayer focusing less on the goofy fun of LAN parties and of the early Xbox Live days, and focuses more on a competitive "win win win" mindset. That's not to say games like Halo 2 didn't have the same sort of "must win" mindset that modern Halo's do, but the maps from the earlier Halo games offer the opportunities to have more goofy fun with your friends or with randoms, even if they're not totally balanced.

[@slogcat2085]

I would love to see more maps like vertigo from halo 4, maps that are designed around a central gimmick and encourage the use of said gimmick to change up the gameplay.

[@slogcat2085]

I also think this is what happened to halo wars 2 as compared to halo wars 1 the maps have almost no gimmicks or uniqueness

[@zionrios2205]

I can only imagine boarding action but with some sort of aim able man cannon or frequent grappling hooks

[@andrewwhite8734]

Frequent grappling hooks on Boarding Action. Pirates of the Caribbean in space, I love it.

[@MuscledRMH]

Halo 5's maps were so heavily designed for a balanced competitive experience which made them all feel similar and repetitive, not to mention the remix system making it even worse.

[@NinjaSynFrey]

I think the reason is because back in the day, developers never had to worry about what players and the competitive scene want in a Halo map. I remember hearing an interview with Hardy Lebel (Act Man has a video on this) where a lot of the CE maps were just designed out of the blue from tutorials they've seen for the tools they were using. Everyone was still in the early stages of learning the tools. As time went on, devs become more experienced with the tools and a lot of the quirks in older maps are refined in newer maps they create. Cycle repeats for every new game release. Once competitive scene comes in, developers now need to consider feedback from them into the design of new maps. As a result, every map feels the same. 3 lane map design, symmetrical design, etc. There's no variety because they want to cater to the competitive players. And sadly this attitude won't change. Esports make A LOT of money and companies like Microsoft want to cash in on that. I wouldn't be surprised if Infinite's multiplayer map design are influenced by the competitive scene.

[@_-ghostfps-_8651]

Gimmicky maps are cool and all until you're on the side that's under the fire In spire for example If there's good players up the spire with a dmr or a sniper The ones down the spire will have a miserable time In Cairon unless you play shotty/rockets games,it would be a sluggish experience I think battlefield is the only franchise that can get away with having maps heavily uneven because of the way the game presented

[@BurningPenguin6]

I didn't play Halo 4 for very long, and never even touched Halo 5 so I never got to experience that shift in gameplay and map design. With the release of Infinite's multiplayer, I'm honestly shocked to see just how much things have changed. While playing the game I can definitely tell that the maps are balanced, but none of them are particularly interesting in mechanics OR design for me. They don't feel like they have any charm either, like the maps from 3 and Reach. A lot of those old maps had this kind of feeling like they really belonged in that world. Looking at the terrain and buildings on a number of those maps made me feel like I was catching a glimpse of the lore, or the stories behind those locations. The little bit of flavour text when selecting a map really helped with that too. My favourite maps were: Valhalla, Avalanche, Last Resort, High Ground, Rat's Nest, Snowbound, Sandtrap, and Isolation. (H3) Anchor 9, Boneyard, Breakpoint, Condemned, Paradiso, and the ABSOLUTE BEAST that is Spire. (Reach) Infinite's maps aren't bad, from a balancing standpoint but for me, they lack the charm and fun these older maps have and that's definitely going to have an impact on how long Infinite can hold my attention. Doesn't help that it's multiplayer gamemodes are pretty lacking right now too. No Assault, Infection or Invasion, and literally nobody I've talked to so far has said they like Stockpile. Total Control is pretty fun though, especially when it's not a total stomp on way or the other. But uhh, yeah. Maps.

[@OGRScintilla]

This is actually a huge reason why I quit playing online FPS’s after halo 3. Nothing was as quirky

[@theskieshavefallen8408]

05:33 Splitgate would seriously beg to differ.

[@Giraffinator]

I feel like this is why forge, or map-making tools in general, is so important to have. I think it's better if the devs go crazy on map design to make it fun for most of the fanbase, include a few competitive maps to kind of showcase how their game works in a competitive environment, and then give the community a bomb-ass map-making tool so the community can diversify the competitive map pool (for free, btw) while also making whacky casual maps and game-modes.