Why The Goths Don't Work In High Elo

[@w.c.wigginton9030]

I was a bit worried when you said that you were changing the quality of your uploads because I liked watching your games, but this analysis is fascinating and I'd watch the same type of thing for other civs, maybe Burmese. The civs that 'don't work' at high elo are interesting because we never see them utilised in tournaments, but the ones that 'do work' we already get a sense of their strengths.

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

I could definitely make this a recurring series if people show interest

[@Kelvin_Dnl]

@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 agreed would love see you do more like this

[@rupammandal3649]

@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 yes please

[@rafad9044]

@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 that's a great idea

[@AshwinNarasimhan]

@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 I definitely enjoyed this analysis. Being a low elo legend, looking at the game through a pro player's perspective is definitely a great learning experience.

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

With all that said and done, goths sit at 50.50% winrate at 1650+ elo so as you can see, still a dangerous civ if you fail to punish them early!

[@battleforevermore]

Could you show a graph of their winrate vs time? I know such a graph is there as SOTL uses it and I think I saw it too. That graph is the proof of your argument regarding gorh's strength and weakness

[@JSBax]

So, umm, 1650 isn't high elo? Or are you taking it back? lol

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

@@JSBax 1650 isnt high enough elo for theory to work no. Its a good elo but theres still too many mistakes. High elo in this context is probably 2.2k+ so really high elo

[@KaoticPhoenix]

@@JSBax Bruh 1650+ is top 5% of the player base, certainly not pros but they understand the game Edit: Nvm I misunderstood what you were saying

[@Nadie-mb4vw]

Goths are really an unique civ. The other day in SotL videos, where he checks civ changelogs from AOK to DE, there was a quote from Sandy Petersen where he stated that they never meant to make Goths a balanced or strong civ, and the idea was always from the beginning making a civilization that won games overhelming enemies with numbers in late game. They are designed to get crushed in early game, and stomp enemies in late game. Since low-mid elo games almost never end before min 20-25, goths always have a chance to shine at that level. But in 1vs1 high Elo, getting a 3 archer/scout advantage at min 10 the game is pretty much over.

[@creepy3ric]

It's somehow ironic that a civ from the early middle ages / late antique age is an Imperial Age late game power house.

[@davidhill1911]

Hahahaha interesting thought!

[@LinkMarioSamus]

Obviously in real life they were eliminated too fast. Anyway the Spanish and Portuguese are partly descended from them.

[@gletscherminze9372]

Guess they didnt manage to get to the strong lategame in real history

[@feudal_age_spearman_with_i9410]

wHaT dO yoU mEaN....tHeY gEt hAnD cAnNonEeRs

[@josephk.4200]

@@gletscherminze9372 They did, but they turned into Germans. Gothic Knights baby.

[@andredemings9424]

Absolutely crushing video to watch your fav civ get taken to task over their inadequacies, but the truth's the truth.

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

if u like it u like it bro keep rocking the goths

[@Jakvortex]

Hey Hera, I'm a big fan of yours and enjoyed watching you dominate in Hidden Cup IV. Just wanted to say that I enjoy this format where you talk about a cool topic and I can listen while I'm at work without having to watch gameplay. Keep on rocking man!

[@conqueror181]

It also because infantry is under powered in aoe2. The milta line are slower less powerful knights. The spearman line that is supposed to counter cavalry can be ran around with good mirco and also requires expensive upgrades at beginning of castle age/imp to be effective. As for goths not only do you need a castle but anarchy is super expensive.

[@joshkarpatkin2642]

militia line should be cost effective against knights in straight melee. otherwise they are essentially useless

[@xthomas7621]

my only complaint is that pikemen die too easily to archers

[@dxfifa]

Infantry should have much much higher armour than cavalry

[@conqueror181]

@@joshkarpatkin2642 I think infanty training time should be reduced. It takes 22 seconds to train a knight and 21 seconds to train a swordsman. How is training guy to use a sword slower than training a battle horse and it rider?

[@conqueror181]

@@xthomas7621 I don't think that should change. Pikeman dieing to archers is part of the countering system.

[@exeonx6561]

As someone who used to love playing goths I have to agree with about everything you said. I do believe goths are one of the best post imp civs in the game, and you "can" win every matchup with them, though some are notably harder than others. The main thing is, while having an insane lategame, you need an insane eco to make it happen, and since everyone is aware of how goths function, they rarely get to that stage, unless it's a team game on a closed map. They have no real means to defend themselves till they get where they need to be. Infantry is just too weak in feudal/castle age. I do believe Goths "can" use a buff, but we've seen that even a minor tweak and bring this civ from the bottom to the top very quickly.

[@SoumyadiptaChanda]

Nice video Hera. Completely agree that Goths take a while to get going on open maps but at my lower elo i find it super duper hard to stop Goths on a closed map like Arena. Certainly has its niche.

[@WolfgangDibiasi]

How do I beat goths with Huns?

[@JunSian1001]

Great analysis about Goth. I have rarely played goth because cavalry civs are so much easier to play even with the bad pathfinding (I suck at micro-ing). Now I am intrigued to try Goth as a very low elo player.

[@voiceofreason2674]

I’m terrible at this game and all of my best games came as Goths. Forces me to play fast and attack rather than sit on my hands. Landing a successful dark age rush is such a good feeling. Also in team games you can be very useful while having your weaknesses covered

[@LarryCroft111]

That's a good summary of Goths in 1v1. The thing is that cheap maa is great compliment to a tower rush and while it's not the easiest or strongest 1v1 strat it can be really threatning as Goths. On the other hand you can pull that or infantry rush in 2v2 in order to delay one play and let your teammate shine in feudal or early castle. All those options make AoE2 unique and very, very interesting.

[@danielperkins9347]

This is a really interesting alternative to the gameplay videos. If I could make one request Hera I’d love to hear some commentary on what changes could be made to help the civ overcome some of these deficiencies. I’m sure it’s a fine line between high level unplayable and high level busted. But I think it would be cool to hear your thoughts.

[@seanmcintosh7416]

Hera what do you think about lowering castle cost very slightly. Maybey 5-10%?

[@Alfre1899]

At low elo people don’t know how to counter them, and also the games tend to last longer, which make them almost unstoppable unless you have some civ like vikings or japanese for example

[@caper963]

I wish that Goths instead extra damage vs boars, would get extra food from them. ( perhaps "wild boars contain +33% food )

[@battleforevermore]

Too strong. Goth currently are above average in Arabia and arena so no buff or Nerf needed.

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

@@battleforevermore this is true. 50.5% winrate even in higher elos

[@rafad9044]

That's a good idea for a series! Great video, quality content

[@silviodomenico]

Good video. I was hoping youll cover off the somewhat meta Laming that a goth player often do in dark ages at the high level. This appears to be effective so Goth can catch up a little

[@kdog.unleashed]

Thanks god I‘m forever low elo 💪🏼

[@acarrot589]

Me too! I'm like 900, and I've played since year 2000 :(

[@DarioStarcraft2]

The fact is that the goths champions miss the final tech of the armour. This make them so vulnerable to full up champ; britons and mayans can spam champion not at the same speed but more powerfull; the last upgrade of armour is important.

[@Bu11yMagu1re]

Mayans dont get champs.

[@mauromasterx]

Id hear your wisdom in this format for days

[@chronographer]

Now that we have a civ with 'vills take up less pop space', I'd be interested to see what a change to the goths pop bonus would do. If it was something like 'infantry take up 0.8 population' space it would actually give them a small boost throughout the entire game (less houses needed) rather than just a flat 10 pop in the very late game. It would also scale better for different population games, the flat 10 was back when the game size was 75!

[@Kaiser282]

For low Elo, they can be overwhelming. For high elo, they have to actually work to get that overwhelming advantage.

[@HunTLaaR007]

I remember playing ranked 4v4 (1100-1300elo) with my friends on arena last year and so we were still new and we kind of got intimidated when we faced bulgarians, goths, vikings and a other civ infantry civ I don't remember (Our Direct Counters), while my friends had Frank, Berbers, magyars and I was the byzantine(Support) our civs were more of cavalry but I always knew the cata's had bonus damage against the infantry but I never got to see experience it on ranked before so I went for fast imp and wanted to mass the cataphrects. My Frank friend started the push in early castle age but he started to get overwhelmed by the late castle and early imperial age when both vikings and goths ganged up on him, This was the time I fell in love with byzantines as my friend bought me enough time for me to fully upgrade my cataphrects and boy I literally destroyed the masses of herbs/champions/huskarls, melting through them and literally did 1v3 and we made a huge comeback and destroyed them. It was the first time I realized goths are not so special as you start to get better in this game and they can easily be countered even if mass produced in late imp.

[@teddyhaines6613]

In general, a lot of people just really don't seem to understand how much of a bottleneck the castle is on 1v1 Arabia especially, and weigh unique units and techs way too heavily when assessing how strong a civ is. Other case in point being how many people see Sicilians as invincible because of Hauberk when it's really hard to get to that tech and therefore won't save you from archer civs in castle or early Imp.

[@dirkauditore8413]

I think maybe making some UU's available at barracks/stables upon reaching castle age might be the solution ;) especially for Goths.

[@LightGreenCorona]

​@@dirkauditore8413 Or in Town Centers in Castle Age, but for double the production time. What do you think about the following changes? - First Barracks costs 100 Wood and unlocks Stable in Dark Age - Spearmen and Scouts available in Dark Age

[@dirkauditore8413]

@@LightGreenCorona For goths...? Im not sure that would help them, they need the tcs to make vills lol

[@viktorianas]

I've spent 20+ trying to break the META, all I can say is that the game would be MUCH MUCH more interesting, less predictable if unique units would not need castle, it is EXTREMELY costly to go Castle first in 1v1, when your Magyar opponent arrives with 8+ FU knights by the time you have a couple UU. As for now, only Sicilian Serjeants give a glimpse of what the game would look like with UU unit even in Feudal age.

[@dirkauditore8413]

@@viktorianas I agree with u brother, it would give the game so much more variety and flavor, and maybe mix in an additional UU for each civ, so each civ has 2 uu in total (or 3, depending on if they already have 2 ). Xbow Kt meta gets pretty stale to watch. Maybe you for UUs such as conquistador it would be too broken tho...

[@nsavch]

what about team games tho? goths player could have teammates with faster civs which would protect goths in early game and then in late game huskarl spam gonna be unstoppable. Seems good on paper isn't it?

[@Southeast_Asian_Devil]

Not only on paper. TheMax did it in tournament, as Goth, pocket. They won vs team Hera iirc

[@mrKreuzfeld]

Always thought goths where balanced for 75 pop, as originally intended

[@Yang.Wenli33]

How about Mayans, Hera? Should Mayan players be aggressive against the Goths and win early or are there tactics that they may use against the Goths? I'm LeL player, so, I'm just curious about a possible match-up between Goths and Mayans in high elo.

[@johncohnor9655]

Brother you just watched an entire video answering your question 11

[@Yang.Wenli33]

@@johncohnor9655 Mayans only combo for late game is two-handed swordsman and arb against the Goths. Hand cannons, champs/huskarls can deal with that unlike the Britons which have fully-upgraded champs, long range arbs. Mayans are predictable too, eagle/archer, that's their only combo. In castle age, a high elo Goth player can deal with that with elite skirms and long swords. Brits and Maya aren't similar that greatly.

[@teddyhaines6613]

Well, here's an example where the Goth player beat the Mayan player in a tournament, but only because of a fluke king snipe on Regicide Fortress because he was going to die horribly otherwise: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZ7PpH9srN53pJY&ab_channel=EscapeAoE It's obviously not in the Mayan player's best interests to let the game go late, but if it does, they still have a better boom and can complicate the situation by mixing in monks to convert huskarls, as Jibatong did in that game. But he mostly took on huskarls with eagles and won because he simply had a much stronger eco and could outspam the Goths.

[@alienflorina]

Random ladder game, random civs. Petty 1300 ELO .. The sun was shinning and the map was Arena, my opponent had the Goths and I the Britons. So I thought I'd just play the usual boom to imperial game.. I still have nightmares from time to time :)

[@felixxtcat]

Can you make an update video on the Goths please? I think they've gotten some buffs that apply to the early game since this video was made.

[@progeologist7808]

Awesome content. Now please also reveal the mystery of "why Vietnamese is a top tier civ on islands..." On a different note: Next to Goth, it seems that at least in mid-elo team games, the second most popular civ/unit is the Byzantines with their Cataphracts. Although a bit different than the video above, I'd be interested in a "what to do against Byzantines in late game" and "Why Byzantines are not popular in high elo team games"?

[@vunguyenxuanhoang7422]

I think Byzantine is very gold-thirsty for they expensive Cataphract upgrade. So map control is very important . Some time I fight again opponent used Byzantine and they literally run out of gold at early imperial age because they spam Cataphract to much . It is a great unit again infantry but isn’t a great raiding unit . The most annoying thing is they cheap counter unit, sometimes I get caught by a combined force of a group xbow and a lot of pikeman and skirmisher at early castle

[@Mattroid99]

​@@vunguyenxuanhoang7422Yeah, is why they struggle against double gold comps so much in CA too. Pikes/Skirms or Camel Skirms are very gold intensive and hard die to Knights XBows for isntance

[@ThatGuanfranco]

Love the video. I can listen to Hera explain AoE all day

[@yangli_ox_cal_wh]

how about huskarl + hand cannon? that should counter champion + arbalest, right?

[@krystofcisar469]

Could work however arbalest fire much faster and got more range than handcanon. And in terms of resources id alwys take arbalest/champ.

[@knasttrast7168]

I have had some success going very aggressive with goths in feudal. If you go MAA and skirms while building towers around your enemy´s resources the game gets messy and they are the ones who have to defend, your MAA kills buildings pretty quickly too so you can still damage them even if you dont find villager kills. If you stay passive in feudal the archer stack will just grow and the goth will be forced to defend the whole game and slowly crumble from the pressure. You can also get some advantage through cheesing by killing the enemies boars or deers with a forward villager in dark age.

[@LeicaFleury]

Loved this analysis! Keep 'em coming! -leicafleury

[@byrnesy924]

elite video - very informative and good execution

[@kavi1844]

Played my first Gurjaras game against goths today. Practiced my camelscout opening so much I didn't even realize I should've gone fast castle.

[@teebz4811]

Yell!!!!

[@teebz4811]

Yea

[@iliakirillov2859]

What about Goths in team games? I almost never play them so don’t really know. Do they work there?

[@majungasaurusaaaa]

TGs on open maps are about archers on the flanks and cav in the pockets. Goths do neither very well. So you're forced to transition into infantry. Goth spam while good late game with trade now has to worry about heavy hitters like H scorps, SO, hand cannons, bombard towers, expensive UUs.

[@f13rro37]

The problem with goths is not that "infantry is underpowered" as many here seem to believe but rather that archers are OP at high levels and definitely the go-to strategy for most civs. Infantry civs are simply way too weak against archer civs and that is a fact. I think a good way to balance those cases of infantry vs archers matchups is to make the ghulam's piercing damage a global stat to all non anti-cavalry infantry units. It's not a definitive solution since archers will still out-manouver them, but at the very least this will force the opponent to micro harder or else their archers are gonna get melted.

[@f13rro37]

@AlHasan Sameh That is why I said non "anti-cav" infantry. Eagle warriors does bonus damage against cavalry on top of their high pierce armor so they should not benefit from the ghulam bonus. The piercing melee damage should help units like the militia-line and other similar units like Woad raiders, shotel warriors, samurai, etc to at the very least have a chance to fight back and trade slightly more efficiently.

[@f13rro37]

@AlHasan Sameh I never said anything about eagles winning against cav in equal conditions (though they still have the advantage that you can mass them an age earlier). All I said is to not give this ghulam bonus to them or any other unit with anti-cav bonuses like the pike-line, kamayuk, flemish militia, etc. Those units has too many bonuses already. Again, I didn't say this bonus would solve the problem. The archers are way more efficient since they excel at dealing damage while retreating. You can't take their major strenght away or else nobody would use them. However, many infantry units can be way easier to mass compared to archers and if you manage to surround a group of archers having this bonus you will be able to melt them. You also have to understand that the higher the attack of the unit the higher will be the piercing damage. If you can overwhelm your opponent with sheer numbers then this bonus will be extremely efficient to make quick work of their archers once you get them surroundend and thus minimizing your loses. Melee units suffers a lot from pathfinding issues, they get stuck with eachother and thus heavily reducing their damage potential. But giving them a a greater area of effect will mean that any hit that you land will be far more significative, pretty much doubling their damage potential against grouped up armies. This is even more significant against low hp units like archers.

[@mrbelgrade6631]

This video makes me want to play a death match as the goths to just see how fast I can get to 200 pop huskarls

[@nicogalv93]

As a noob I am, I'll still going men at arms+towers until at least I get my coloured huskarl icon xD #GoGoths 11

[@justxavier9999]

Is there a playlist for these informative gameplay/strategy guides that answers these “why” questions?

[@aegislegis7551]

Love Hera and im no goth(if one dates me i dont mind) defender, but the video is wierd. Goth loom bonus doesnt kick in, when the other guy researches loom, it does, when you go 20 pop sc rush with a 19 pop timing, or m@a into arch on a 20 vil timing, saving money on the m@a. in castle age there is no point trying to mass huskarls, u stick to mangonels and pikes, defend till u have 4 tc and 3 castles around eco. Hera makes an importand point, that a castle is a big investment, but i have never seen a 30+ min Hera game where he wouldnt build one or two. Husks in castle are a raiding unit, and a great one. Transitioning to imp u have hussar with ok upgrades and the pike-husk soup, which is amazing if u get all the unique techs. I think goths get too much negativity here.

[@Abomai]

Great video, keep them coming 💪

[@ahmetcan7979]

This is a great vid! Also wondering, how should I play the Turks? I feel like only the janis are strong, other than that they have no options, any tips to improve my turks

[@humanbass]

Great cav arches, free hussars, extended range bombard cannons

[@ahmetcan7979]

@@humanbass having no trash especially no pikemen leave it be halb, really screws them

[@teddyhaines6613]

@@ahmetcan7979 You can play around it. You can't use pikemen, so make cav archers or camels or monks to counter cavalry. You can't make elite skirmisher, so use cavalry or mangonels to counter archers. Most Arabia games don't get to a trash war anyways, so don't let your poor trash options get into your head too much because you can definitely end games before then. And even if the game goes that late you still have great hussars along with heavy cav archers that don't die easily plus siege rams. Also, don't fixate on unique units and stuff you have civ bonuses for. Turks have crossbows and knights with full castle age upgrades. You can win games with those units no problem.

[@joreecollins2336]

if you micro the siege tower, fast longswords is fun and effective if your opponent is trying to be greedy believe it or not. just requires one siege tower, an underappreciated unit tbh

[@hudsong3426]

Think of Goths as the AoE II role of Damage Dealer. The civ must get fed to overwhelm enemies in late game. They are pure offense, they lack even proper walls and technology for them, as well can't completely upgrade their armor at Blacksmith. Their barracks work faster, and they have two unique techs, one that allows Huskarls to br created at Barracks, and other that increases Barracks production speed, plus they have passive Barrack production speed bonus (that stacks with techs and other sources). That means Goths have the fastest production of a military unit in the whole game, their Barracks go twice as fast than any other production. You can imagine how easy it is to swarm enemies with Infantry, Champions to deal with regular units, Huskarls to go against Archers, Hand Cannoners to do what Artillery does and Halberdiers to get rid of Knights and Paladins. Goth players usually should focus on food gathering. These may be their strongest points, but they're also their weakness: - extreme late game dependency = bad early to mid game; - relying on infantry and poor archery = anihilated by infantry counters, especially infantry infantry-killer (Jaguar Warriors go brr); - not very good Mangonel; - poor defenses. This doesn't make them bad civ, they sit with positive winrate at all Elos, but pros don't play around possibilities or statics gameplays (like waiting AFK to possibly get to late game), they play around what they can do at the moment and dynamically, always adapting to what's going on the game, every minute and move matter. Since Goths have no adaptability at all (they're fully Infantry infantry infantry), they're not preferable. Maybe in team games the Goths would do better if their allies allowed them to farm as much as they can and cover their weakness? Still, too risky.

[@Lexoka]

Maybe the Goths need a new building. They don't get stone walls, so it might make sense for them to have something like a "bastion" that would cost maybe 250 stone + 100 wood, act a bit like a big tower, but be able to train Huskarls and research Anarchy. It would allow the Goths to get to their desired composition faster and at lower cost, so that they wouldn't be as vulnerable and for as long. I would restrict Perfusion to actual castles though, or Goths might become too strong.

[@alejandro3282]

2:10 That pathfinding makes me sick in ways you can't imagine. Almost 20 infantry units focusing only one crossbow, it can't deal with that.

[@Grimmy_Grimes]

I love videos like this!

[@gletscherminze9372]

How strong would Goths be if they got Huskarl from barracks as a free bonus and the tech replaced by something else? Do you think it would be OP?

[@Southeast_Asian_Devil]

Agree. Anarchy = Allies can make huskarls in their own barracks

[@ПолОтто]

New Goth Bonus: On age up, every barrack spawns 2 free swordsmen

[@aepps2]

I feel like we don’t see enough melee infantry in high level games. Ever since I was a kid the champion was my favorite unit. What would it take to see melee infantry in higher level games?

[@pascalbaryamo4568]

The way I play goths is often very fast, using the bonus on buildings to crush any ranges the opponent builds. Worst matchup imho is goth/byz or a strong siege civ like Celt

[@abhishekjain3148]

WOW! you really upped your KZbin game.

[@1985tris1]

Great video, so the question needs to be... what can be done to make goths better in high elo? Maybe if they gained say something like the final cav armor? Another thing they could do is give a tech where say as soon as they hit castle age a tech can be researched which will 1 or 2 times produce a batches of 10/5 huscarls can be produced from the tc or barracks. (At similar cost as huscarls from a castle per unit). This way a player could afford to go multi-unit type in early castle age but if they really want to continue getting replacement huscarls then they have to build a castle. This would allow the civ to not fall behind in high elo games. And the strat would be to go drush or man at arm and then get asap into castle age. Which is sort of the strat but as you said it is a huge investment. Currently for myself building a archer range is a must for this civ and being prepared to go archer/skirm. Late game I like to mix in some hussars. I think there are many different small things that can be done to make goths more interesting and at the same time not overpowering. A little less weak early game or slightly more option in the late game.

[@teddyhaines6613]

The thing is, I don't think they're that bad as a civ, the problem is just that pros see no reason to use them in a tournament over other civs unless they want to lame with the insta-loom. Persians are in a similar spot where there's not really anything wrong with them but they're just not specialized enough to see play outside of Nomad or some hybrid maps. So it's less about Goths' power overall and more that there aren't many maps that are perfectly cut out for them besides Socotra or Mired from Wandering Warriors Cup.

[@xadex3352]

The problem with Goths is that they're such a crazy civ it's hard to fine tune them. They had free Loom for a while and it was mayhem, they were top tier. Take that 50 gold away and they're mediocre again. Such a small difference but had a snowball effect.

[@eruidfhjcvbn]

its obvious. infantry needs a buff.

[@dirkauditore8413]

@@eruidfhjcvbn Give militia line +0.1 speed and men at arms and onwards +1 pierce armor as well. Maybe reduce their cost after Supplies too. Something like 35 food 15 gold after supplies. This helps vs both archers and knights

[@yiyoascen]

Are jags + atlatl skirms good against goths?

[@dirkauditore8413]

Jags + a couple onagers

[@tobiasschneider8247]

make anarchy researchable in barracks and make it slightly more expensive... would be interesting how that plays out

[@simontravancas]

Wondering how being a pocket in a team game changes this analysis. Are they better in that case, when they have more time to boom?

[@teddyhaines6613]

In general not really, because their infantry is slower than the knights you usually expect from a pocket and huskarls will lose to knights as well. And adding pikes won't help because the enemy can snipe those down with archers and then engage your huskarls with knights. Honestly if I had to play Goth pocket in a team game I'd just go knights. They're more commonly used as a pocket on closed maps like Black Forest and Arena, but I still don't like that because you then have to fear losing everything to Siege Onager shots. Also, it's so predictable that people will likely have champions or gunpowder ready for you.

[@battleforevermore]

I played a black forest game as mayana against goth and killed them. Mainly because spammed eldorado eagles+ plumbs. The goth player accused me of cheating. This was 1k elo

[@zindev]

What is considered high elo?

[@codenamerishi]

There used to be player Carlos, who would always pick Goths and was really good with it, but the max he ever reached was 1900

[@JSBax]

I actually lost sleep over this. "What, goths lose to britons because britons make... CHAMPIONS!?" I saw the scenario he made but as a longtime goth fan I can instantly say... I've never made an army like that! Not even against a non-acher civ. You know, I'm super low ELO, and Hera's a dude, so I thought he must be right. BUT part of me couldn't believe it. SO I got up first thing this morning and made my first custom scenario! If you balance resources 20 champs + 20 arbs gets you 38-41 huskarls (with regular vs double-weight gold). I thought, hmm, if I don't micro this it might be close! As it turns out I was wrong... 27 out of 40 huskarls remain. lol I thought I would have to work out a composition of champs and huskarls and micro the huskarls to kill the archers, but nope, huskarl spam absolutely wipes the floor.

[@JSBax]

whoa, I also redid it just with goth champions, which ends up 60 vs 20+20, and there were still 30 champs left! Despite not getting plate armour. Obviously the champs would go down if you microed the arbalests, but it goes to show how cost effective infantry spam can be if you can actually get to your target!

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

if the guy is full huskarl then britons just goes full champions and wins lol. if goth mixes champions to counter urs then u mix arbs. Also if u watched the video u will know in theory britons should have an eco lead by that point

[@kekstruppe1263]

I've just tested it in AoE editor: Goth's Huskarls + Handcannoneer counter Aztec's Champion + Arbalests.

[@yohanbeck8172]

This I dont believe. Need to see it to believe! :o

[@satyakisil9711]

What if Jaguar Warrior + Arbalest?

[@isaisotarriva8162]

I like goths on Black Forest, it is kind of the only place were loom at the start makes sense (for vill fighting). Arabia is clearly not their best map. I hate their bonus for killing the boar, if you forget about it and try to kill the boar with the TC as usual you might kill it with TC arrows and get no food.

[@robchang4533]

Goths just are the example of devs thinking what would be needed to make a civ really bad: No Economy bonus Infantry only focus Narrow techtree Voila

[@dirkauditore8413]

Party cause infantry is so underpowered in feudal/early castle age. If they were good units, goths would have a chance

[@garioldwin]

What about goths in team games?

[@tusharjamwal]

all this after Tatoh kicked your ass with Goths on Socotra xD man that must have been so annoying to deal with, but it was very entertaining to watch!

[@dirkauditore8413]

Lmaooo you got a link to that game?

[@tusharjamwal]

@@dirkauditore8413 yea! Battle of Africa 3 Finals Map 1 here you go kzbin.info/www/bejne/bmi1YmiIm72BipY

[@paramvirsingh586]

What is the worst civilisation in your opinion?

[@dimitrigaumann7740]

nice video love that stuff

[@VOID_WARRANTY]

Archers can counter huskarls if you spend all your time microing the archers. While you micro archers you have vills stuck on lumber camps, farms expiring, etc.. The goth player just has to produce and send the units, and the micro is done where it matters : on eco.

[@hjluke4807]

Goths are a great civ. But this video is so up to point. Goths’ weakness make them one of the worst to use in competitive games.

[@gabrielmelnik6796]

What if you integrate sending a villager forward from dark age to lame and disrupt the other player?

[@mrister24]

You need to do big damage with that vil to justify having one less working vil than your opponent for several minutes in the early game. That's punishing on your dark age eco.

[@harz632]

0:13 This is just beautiful And honestly low elo, that free loom might actually be bad, I tend to get housed at the 15 pop mark, always keep forgetting the house right there, but I can squeeze in a loom losing only like 3 seconds of TC worktime, as a goth player you would lose out on like up to 10 seconds even when you react fast (or you lose out on wood because you pull like 5 vills to build the house fast) So honestly the eco bonus is just not only non existent until the enemy researches loom, it can also backfire.

[@HiggsBoson1995]

They do, on Socotra

[@hectorgonzalez2401]

How to counter them at low elo? But the Gurjaras DLC and use chakram

[@hansoskar1911]

In theory with perfect play Goths shouldnt be albe to come back in early to mid imp. In practice they do, even at highest level. the production is stupid and it's just 1 bad fight until its over. Goths is easier to play. you mosty just put the gather points of your 4 diffrent groups of barracks to the right position. With perfect play Goths should lose every time. but in practise thats really hard to do but gets mroe likely on higher elo.

[@JohnSmith-uf7ci]

What do you mean 4 different groups of barracks?

[@hansoskar1911]

@@JohnSmith-uf7ci since Goths should be on barracks only you better put your diffrent barrack in diffrent areas of the map on diffrent control group, instead of all production buildings of the same type together like its usually done.

[@JohnSmith-uf7ci]

@@hansoskar1911 nice makes sense. What elo are you?

[@zuma4847]

What does elo mean?

[@kekstruppe1263]

They do work. I will prove it!

[@andersonklein3587]

Archers in AOE2 suffer from what one may call the SC2 Stalker syndrome. A woefully underpowered unit in theory, that is just stupidly powerful against almost everything if perfectly microed. Case in point, AlphaStar was able to micro Stalkers vs Immortals (hard counter to Stalkers). Technically, if you had infinite APM you could micro Longbow vs Skirmisher. I think the most straightforward solution really would be to limit the micro ability of the units by adding a longer frame delay to archers, would disincentivize the kiting.

[@krystofcisar469]

you should micro longbow against skirmisher. You got 2 times their range

[@satyakisil9711]

What if you bypass Huskarl and Champion altogether? How about Halb + gunpowder with Hussar raids mixed in? You are still using most of the civ's strengths.

[@bobbyrtghrh4142]

You just play another civ for eco bonuses

[@vibhorroy9225]

@@bobbyrtghrh4142 you still die to champ arb only harder

[@teddyhaines6613]

Then you stop and ask yourself why you didn't play Burgundians or Hindustanis instead.

[@satyakisil9711]

@@teddyhaines6613 because I like mass Halbs produced as fast as Shotels.

[@teddyhaines6613]

@@satyakisil9711 Of the three units in your suggested comp, the halbs are by far the least deadly and important. Also the cheapest, so literally the worst one to prioritize cost reductions for.

[@danielcordeiro7048]

Hera is fast even talking.

[@clarkminer8650]

I’m low elo, thanks for the tips on how to beat goths

[@supliiiiiieeeeees]

Thanks for giving false hope to those who play against my Gothy bois! 😅 Goths 4 life!

[@ffffffuuuuuuu]

good editing

[@nimamoradi2779]

what about civs with not eco bounces like Magyars and Spanish

[@teddyhaines6613]

Magyars have a diverse tech tree and strong power spikes, while Spanish live and die by the power of the conquistador except on Nomad, where faster build speed becomes an eco bonus. And then they still live and die by conqs, but at least they can get there more easily.

[@dirkauditore8413]

@@teddyhaines6613 U are a wise man lol

[@dirkauditore8413]

Magyars have a very deadly scout rush

[@miaowmiaowchowface]

good vid

[@epicsheephair5785]

Do you think Goths need a buff? They aren't even THAT scary in imp unless you're Mayans.

[@fidrewe99]

Goths don't have an economy bonus to give them an early advantage, but they can use their loomed villagers and the discount on man at arms to go for a very early push that can give them the lead... can't they?

[@tomascanevaro4292]

idk, the other day i saw Viper loose to Daniel, a player he could beat consistently, because he was mayans vs goths. At the very least the civ is definately a hard counter to one of the strongest civs in the game just because of the design of it's UU.

[@xadex3352]

That's because the Mayans lack the answers to Goths that other civs do, such as Cavalry and Champions. I think the only hope of the Mayan player is to go all in feudal.

[@mrister24]

Yeah the hope of mayans is to use their stronger and faster eco and get the jump on goths before they can get a castle and eco. Mayans can even build a bunch of plumes and 2-3 shot huskarls but it gets dicey the longer the game goes.

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

definetely a sketchy matchup once it gets to mid late game

[@steelhammer3922]

What I gather here is, goths need at least 1 decent eco bonus for them to be viable, due to the fact at high elo players just don't waste any time, wheras at low elo there's usually some room to breathe with them. and because of this they are always playing catchup i high elo games. They really need an eco buff

[@steretsjaaj2368]

I believe Inca are the same.

[@esadasd-mn7xm]

in late game, 1 barrack and you will see 100 goths in 30sec :D after that you can understand what you dont need ram.

[@Southeast_Asian_Devil]

Imagine Huskarls are created in barracks without need for Anarchy; Huskarls are made available to allies like they do with the Condottiero and the Imperial Skirmishers. Bye bye meta

[@Sodacacik]

infantry is just stupidly underpowered in this game, knights have the speed, more tanknyness and more damage, nerf knights and move some of that to infantry.

[@eruidfhjcvbn]

infantry is mostly fine against knights. its just that archers kill them too damn quickly for infantry to be viable. the pathing is atrocious and its just too easy to micro them down. id say archers need some kinda nerf similar to what steppe lancers got in that you shouldnt be able to stack so many of them at once in the same place. that and infantry just need plain stat bonuses. like give maa +5 hp and +1 melee and maybe even +1 extra pierce armor, etc

[@Sodacacik]

@@eruidfhjcvbn i mean knights are just infantry on steroids with 0 weakness unlike their historical weaknesses.

[@dirkauditore8413]

@@eruidfhjcvbn Make infantry faster, so they can outrun archers without having to research squires. that's the first step

[@majungasaurusaaaa]

@@Sodacacik The problem is aoe2 mechanics of food being the most precious res in early castle. On top of that , knights need no upgrades.

[@mythology2467]

I'm sorry, 1:44 can you pronounce that word again for me?

[@TheRomanAoE]

You should lame with goths and actually use the boar and loom bonuses

[@dougler500]

This is the way

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

i actually agree with that. Best way to get ahead early and get to late game

[@tusharjamwal]

so probably drush fc into castle drop