Why the Lutherans don't fit in

Here's a quick story, with a theory about why the Lutherans don't fit in anywhere.
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[@bencurry6520]

As a new Lutheran, I very much agree with this. It took my wife fours years of work to get me to accept that my nondenominational background was lacking in a lot of the things I valued in church. Eventually I found your channel and you did most of the work to turn me in the right direction. I originally didn’t like Lutheran’s because, as a told my wife, “you just feel like Catholic lite Christian’s,” which she adamantly denied. Now, I know that is the point, and that having a value for the tradition has its place. Can’t thank you enough for all that you do, and the years of learning potential you’ve place here for so many people. Recently read the Large Catechism and now reading the Book of Concord to give myself a solid base.

[@ejeanroh377]

Tradition should not replace a Commandment. Please concentrate on that; sacraments do not over rule a Commandment.

[@bencurry6520]

@@ejeanroh377 how is a tradition replacing a commandment? The Lutheran view is that we should not toss a tradition unless it goes against scripture and we can see it was implemented by x person y years ago. The reason we should as Christians care about this is because those traditions are how we can be informed of the little details of our faith the Bible doesn’t touch on. Most of the New Testament is the apostles correcting mistakes in the early church, not outlining what they taught them to do. Traditions are below the Bible, but they connect us to the church built by the apostles from the commandments of Jesus Christ. If the tradition replaces the Bible, then we toss it out as wrong.

[@samsonsupaka8716]

​@@ejeanroh377Take your commandment and piss off from this Lutheran site 'cause your statement makes you a misfit here

[@janethiele8373]

I am a life long Lutheran woman in Queensland Australia. My dad was a pastor as was my grandfather, 2 uncles and now my husband. I work as a high school teacher in a non denominational Christian school. I can safely say that in my time here (10 years), I have become more Lutheran. There is a depth and maturity in the Lutheran understanding of Word and Sacrament that does not exist in Reformed traditions. I am surrounded by Baptists and Reformed evangelical Pentabaptapressycostal type church goers whose go to churches called Riverlife, Shiloh, The Potters House, Victory, Elevate etc. They look at me quizzically when I talk about things like Word and Sacrament. Don't stop teaching us Pastor Wolfmueller. You make our theology make sense in a way that is easy to understand. Praise be to God.

[@Wanttoknowabout]

One key thing that drew me to Lutheranism was the *proper distinction between* Law and Gospel. As I have matured in the Lutheran faith I have realized more and more that Lutherans in many areas always aim for a *proper distinction*. Word and sacrament is yet another one of those. Everything is in tension. We allow that tension to exist instead of caving in to the human desire to solve it all. We can't solve it all. God solved it for us!

[@ejeanroh377]

don't seem to get this "tension." Please elaborate...

[@Wanttoknowabout]

@@ejeanroh377 First, I am just a layperson, so keep that in mind. If you watch the video Pastor Wolfmueller is talking about how you have these two sides: word and sacramental traditions. The Catholics have a high view of the sacraments. They are not just mere symbols. Jesus is really present in the Lord's supper for the forgiveness of sins. On the other side you have Christian groups who emphasize the "word" (as in the Bible). The Catholics de-emphasize the Bible in that they have added the traditions and structure of the church as an authority. On the other hand we non-Catholics (like Protestants) hold that the Bible is the only true authority on what is right. The problem you run into is that emphasizing one seems to come with making the other less important. The question is: Can you really be sacramental and the same time hold the Bible as the sole and highest authority. As you think about this it is tempting for the human mind to want to pick one over the other. Instead we Lutherans see the two as simply "in tension" (my words). We acknowledge both and we don't try to mentally "solve" that tension. We simply rest in what God has told us even when it is hard to wrap your brain around. As I shared in my comment, I feel I see this exact same thing in, say, Law and Gospel. You again have a tension. You have the Law that will tell you about all the things you *need* to do. On the other side you have the free gift of salvation independent of what we do. Again, some churches will (like the Catholics) end up in a place where they practically deny that salvation is totally by grace and faith (alone). On the other side you have some who end up saying that the Law has no role to play anymore (because we are saved by grace alone through faith alone). Reality is that we have both the Law and the Gospel. And they must be properly distinguished (or held in tension ... again my word). I hope this makes a bit of sense.

[@METVWETV]

For a Layperson, you seemed to have NAILED IT! Well done Brother!

[@logiberra418]

A little bit of encouragement here. I'm a member of an Anglican Church in the ACNA and we have in our liturgy a balance between the ministry of Word and Sacrament also. Our sermons land around 20 or 25 minutes. On extremely rare occasions, they will be 30 minutes maximum. Then we transition to the liturgy of the Holy Eucharist. Long story short...you're not the only ones my Lutheran brothers.

[@daithimcbuan5235]

I'm a European Anglican (Church of Ireland), and we have the same word-sacrament balance :)

[@doubtingthomas9117]

Another Anglican here, and I agree. I feel that Lutheranism and Anglicanism are very close cousins in their classical confessional expressions.

[@williampeters9838]

ACNA is the closest thing outside of confessional Lutheranism in America. The downside for me was that in the south they end up leaning towards the Reformed more than the Lutherans at least culturally and in the laity in a way that the Augsburg Confessions would prevent.

[@HannahClapham]

@@williampeters9838. And what on earth is wrong with that? Traditional Presbyterians and other Conservative Reformed churches are the third branch of the Magisterial Reformation and ALSO often have a balance between Word and Sacrament.

[@roxanne9418]

Glad my parents had me go to K-8 Missouri Synod School and Church...Sola Scriptura...later attended Wisc. Synod College, and Church. Excellent teachers and training !

[@suzziezhills]

My k-8 LSMS grade school formed my faith and provided a really amazing education that of course I had to become an adult to fully appreciate❤

[@craigflower6401]

Bryan, I am a Lutheran Orthodox Priest (OK that is a Mouth Full) and as a "Defender of the Faith"; I encourage you in the Tradition of our Lutheran Faith "Be Strong! - Be Strong! And be Strengthened, Be Strong! - Be Strong! And we will Strengthen One Another. I with Concord share we as Lutherans take Faith, Producing Love (Lieb) and Works (Werck) wherein the Holy Ghost abounds in our Soul's, therein we turn to Truth, and Law amidst the Lawlessness of the Age. To surprise and experience in such simple Truth spoken so we may be Blessed. I Thank You for speaking from the Heart. God Bless and remain Strong! In the Faith.

[@mariaannino9239]

Yes - Lutheranism is the ultimate "both and' thanks for clarifying this way that we are unique

[@user-hc1fs2lu6f]

Jesus says ABIDE in me. As LCMS, we abide in him by hearing the word AND by receiving forgiveness of sins through the blood. We come to receive his marvelous grace and abide in him!

[@jimflys2]

A very good summary and explanation. Life long Lutheran here, who for a time, eschewed the value and proper understanding of the sacraments. Shall I blame the ALC or my Baptist friends? I thank God for my Evangelical friends and churches that I attended for a time. With first-hand experience, I felt the void and the vapid nature of word only and feel good worship style that tried to fill the sacrament-less void. With the guidance of a confessional Lutheran pastor, I was brought back into a proper understanding of law, gospel, and sacramental worship with guess what at the center? THE WORD! (psst...that's Jesus)

[@jasonwreden]

So we’re basically the best of both worlds. Properly taught.

[@spbeckman]

There is a fine line between the best of both worlds and the worst of both worlds. I like the Lutheran tradition and grew up with it, but looking at the leadership of the various Lutheran denominations, I am not optimistic for the future. For now, I can be content within the Calvinist faiths, which are essentially cousins to the Lutheran faith.

[@BalaamsAss51]

@@spbeckman Sorry, no way to be content with Calvanistic groups. Too much divergence from confessional Lutheranism. Too much magesterial use of reason.

[@bobtaylor170]

​@@spbeckmantwenty years ago, based on what I saw in the LCMS church I was attending, I thought then that in the next twenty five years, the LCMS was going to go bad. I know there are still good LCMS churches ( the main thing is to have a pastor who isn't a coward, as the pastor at the church I was attending was shamefully cowardly ), but still, my sense is that the LCMS is going to go bad.

[@edithhewson7208]

Martin Luther and Zewinger (spell wrong) Were trying to unite because Rome was expected to attack in war. They could agree on almost everything until they got the Eucharist the whole meeting broke down. The statement from Martin Luther should give you pause. He said he would rather drink pure blood with the pope than fine wine with the Swiss. Thing is He called the pope the antichrist numerous times.

[@vester7457]

Love listening to Pastor Wolfmueller from a lifelong MN Lutheran. 😊

[@StevenKozarMessedUpChurch]

Great little illustration!! Thanks for all you do, Pastor Wolfmueller!

[@user-pm8zo2by5z]

Many useful and accurate insights. The effect is often a one side or the other emphasis within our own congregations. In the area where Baptist and Non-Denominational churches predominate, we hear a lot of Lutherans speaking as these other churches do, e.g. personal piety, morality, obeying the commandments, making a decision for Christ, and on the east coast especially where Lutheran congregations could be mistaken for a Catholic mass if one did not read the sign out front before entering. As a Lutheran pastor and former professor, I believe we ought to catechise our poeple more intentionally. They will, I believe, better grasp the gospel in doing so.

[@mmtas1995]

Thank you so much, this helped me understand a lot, as I recently became LCMS Lutheran after a harrowing 15 year journey in non denoms, various NAR, WOF, baptist, churches, never knowing what what going to happen from one week to next. Whether if I’d be fed good or bad . Blessings!

[@ericclark1958]

I started out in a small ELCA church as a kid. I then got involved with some third wave Charismatic United Methodists. Then I went to a Presbyterian College. Eventually I landed in the Vineyard. All that to say that in my wanderings and growth in my faith life, I have always really been grateful for the bedrock foundation that was laid in my life in the Lutheran Church. For me, the mystery of the faith, and my inability to understand it isn't a bug but a feature. Holding things in tension has taught me to embrace having to trust God. I feel like the great job that Lutherans do in being a sacramental tradition with a high view of scripture is indeed a defining characteristic of Lutheranism, and I am ever so thankful for the things I learned as a Lutheran.

[@tammyroberts2460]

You nailed it!! I have such a time trying to explain this. I’ve noted your comments in my Bible, so I’m ready the next time someone asks.

[@lynnerussell1440]

You do a great job explaining what being a Lutheran means. Thank you

[@wabbit_07]

Beautiful. This is one of the primary reasons I’ve fallen in love with the Lutheran tradition.

[@mudbrick6083]

Bravo. 👏🏻 It’s why I’m here.

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

Here's the real deal on Lutherans not "fitting in": We Catholics tend to see Luther as a confused Catholic, and Calvinists tend to see him as a confused Calvinist. Meanwhile, Luther, here-standing and unable to do otherwise, firmly asserts, "No one is confused, you two are just straight up heretics!"

[@chrisknoblock]

I think it's more nuanced than that. Luther didn't think the catholics were outright heretics, he sought to reform non-biblical church practices.

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

@@MichaelTheophilus906 I would say it's pretty obvious the Apostles and NT writers didn't believe in the Trinity, but I wouldn't say that makes it "heresy". These guys experienced something that probably blew their entire paradigm, and it took the Church centuries to standardize a common doctrine

[@marktaylor601]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I am Reformed and definitely lean more toward Word. I love your teaching, and stumbled onto them because of your EverBook videos. I've even been through several books of the Bible teachings on The Word Endures podcast that you recommended some time back. But we aren't very far apart. 😎

[@TheMOV13]

My Father in Law was a Lutheran Pastor in Germany, but in his heart of hearts he was Eastern Orthodox. He was very excited when he heard that my wife (his daughter) and I were converting to Holy Orthodoxy.

[@stevesosinski]

Pastor, I enjoy your videos. Would you ever consider being a guest on a YT channel called The Remnant Radio? Although the Lutheran pastors who have participated as guests do a good job, I believe the gentlemen at Remnant Radio would welcome your insights and clear explanation of Lutheran theology. I am not in anyway affiliated with them, just curious if you'd ever consider going on that channel and explaining our positions. They are very welcoming guys and respect all their guests that come on their show.

[@ralf547]

Thank you for being such a great teacher.

[@markholmes7160]

As a retired pastor from the Wesleyan/Armenian position I can relate to what you are saying. My denomination was conservative and very much non-sacramental. This robbed us of the deeper experiences of baptism and communion. I always felt cheated in this, as it challenged me to speak sacramentally with my people, or exercise certain sacramental rites without causing disagreement and conflict. Yes, we need to reverse the magnetic field of these two positions to allow them to bring together the balance God intended them to be. But I also recognized another strong distinction between the conservative and progressive positions of the faith - creed/experience. Over simplifying this, one emphasized a belief in the historic statements of the church, the other required a personal encounter with God to legitimate a relationship with Him. Again, I believe God provided both of these to complete our experience with Him, not polarize us from one another. Good thinking on your presentation. Keep up the good work, and keep the faith!

[@a_aron30490]

Man, I love being Lutheran. Purest exposition of God's intent for the Church!

[@TheEllaTB]

Our pastor showed us this video yesterday (Sunday). I appreciate it a lot because I just did the "unthinkable" this year and became Lutheran 😅 and I was raised Pentecostal. The funny thing is, the way I began to even consider it is I had a dream that I was baptizing my infant son- something I had never considered doing. Then when I walk into Sunday school that day, the topic of discussion was baptism! I figured I better start looking into it. I am so grateful I did. I really appreciate your videos. Thank you for the work you do!

[@johnfeeney5276]

I was baptized and confirmed Episcopalian. In my 40’s I attended a Cursillo weekend (Lutherans: Los Tres Dias). In following this way of seeing my faith, I feel that I learned more the importance of the Word. I’ve happily been a Lutheran for about 20 years now. I agree with this thesis, but there are Anglicans who do as well.

[@user-nj1rc9hk4h]

So great teaching! Thank you, dear pastor Bryan. I 'd like to say this. It is wrong if someone concludes that ''Lutherans are the via media, the middle way, the best of both worlds''. No. The confessional lutheran church is indeed the true, visible christian church. We have a sacramental idea of the Word and a Word idea of the sacrament and this is the true of the gospel and the fact that the Liturgy is Jesus serving us.

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

One Absolute GEM of Truth can be observed in this video: "KZbin Theologian" is a term worthy of far and wide use in the Land of Comments. I've been trying to popularize the word "Ortlundism"

[@jeffgordenier1234]

Pastor thanks for your great explanation and wonderful video. I have two dear long time friends in your congregation CJ Greenwald and Bev Arnett. They talked with my wife Karen for over 20 years at Zion Lutheran in Fallbrook California. They speak very highly of you. I taught in non-denominational Christian schools for many many years and they never quite knew what to do with me being Lutheran they had some pretty wild ideas about what we believed. I must confess that I am a bit of a Luthertarian as I appreciate the emphasis on the word in the Presbyterian Church. From my experience far too many Lutheran Churches lean heavy on the sacraments and have very little word. It's good to know that you recognize we need both. God's blessings

[@richv3742]

I think that would still be a great idea to have a series of conferences with other pastors/priests from other denominations. It can help introduce others to the clearest form of Christianity, which is confessional Lutheranism. I’m sure a lot of people who subscribe to you would find it very interesting and edifying.

[@barefootinroann]

It’s a shame it is so difficult to become an LCMS Lutheran. I have known LCMS through all my life, and while they are very good friends at a personal level, I have found their churches to be very closed. I have never felt welcome to inquire about the church or have never been invited to join. The theology is very correct, but I have a very hard time seeing the love of God expressed

[@jeffhein7275]

Perhaps you could talk with the church's Pastor... He would hear your concerns and he would also not turn you away.

[@dennislongiii4523]

Sorry, that is very unfortunate to hear and not my experience in LCMS. Hopefully you can find a group of us that are being welcoming and loving; just as God wants us to be.

[@trent8678]

​@@jeffhein7275 I 2nd this

[@foehammer8659]

This sounds very odd to me and not what I've seen or experienced over the years. Probably like any group in this day and age, modern American thought of "don't talk to strangers, lest they kidnap you" has been beat into everyone since birth. It's sad but it's the truth. Evangelicals on the other hand are beat over the head by their pastors to proselytize every person they meet, hence the nickname. So their chruches attitude is different toward someone walking through their door a bit, than a Lutheran. But Lutherans have all been very friendly at every church I go to when I travel, which has been many. They're just not begging me to join is all.

[@jimflys2]

@barefootnroann Well, push your way in and be the friend you seek to others that may feel the same way! That's how it changes. Read Revelation, the first 3 chapters. I will summarize Jesus's words. "Ephesus,Sardis,Laodicea,etc. You are really doing great at this and doing great at that. But you really suck at this over here and over there! I'm about to take away your lampstand if you don't get your act together!" Do you see it? All churches suck at something and need work. So your only choice is to be in the church that, as you admit, is very solid and good. Then, from within, be that change you see as weakness.

[@yucafries7681]

I came back to the faith several years ago. I had no idea where to go. I looked around at various denominations and decided that I am incredibly grateful to have been raised Lutheran. I don’t agree with everything the bishops of current year have chosen as official policy but I am in fundamental agreement with the traditional theology of Lutheranism

[@Blaisesongs]

Fantastic perspective, and it makes sense. Also here's a pitch - there's no hymnody and vigorous music like Lutheran music! Don't sell out to Christian contempo. I've been all over the map with churches of several denominations, and have to say, "this is most certainly true." Maybe it's time to go Bach.

[@timnewman1172]

Life-long Lutheran from the left-ventrical of the heart of the LCMS... You are certainly correct, but I have 2 more words that may or may not help define this further... Law & Gospel(and their proper distiction). Thank Dr. Walther that he set a guide for Lutheran preaching & homiletics, so that I as a lay person in the pew can very clearly understand the WORD part as it is given from the pulpit. Lutheran preaching is is unique and rightly so!

[@augsburgbiblechannel9246]

Sacraments and expository preaching 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@jefferyrowley8873]

Growing up - I was Baptized in the Anglican Church, but after my Mother's second marriage became Lutheran in the then, Norwegian Lutheran Church in America - slightly before the melding of the ALC, UELC, ELC formed the American Lutheran Church. While I was going through the two-year road to Catechism, my Sunday School classes were quite unique, because once a month we travelled with the whole class to attend a different denomination's worship service, including being able to ask the "pastor" or "leader" of that denomination any questions that we had. Then the next Sunday we discussed what we had seen. I specifically remember the Quaker Meeting House, the LDS experience, the Greek Orthodox. Unfortunately most of the class did not take a keen interest in the nuances of these denominations or the structure of the "services". As a whole "WE" did not understand our own denomination. I did, because I already had become an organist in our church and was more curious and at a higher level of understanding than most of my classmates. We also travelled to Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Synod (which I didn't have to really because my Grandfather was Wisconsin Synod and had sermons in German up through the 1970's. Our own church was deeply rooted in the Norwegian tradition and when we joined they still had weekly services in Norwegian. This changed in the early 1970's. I had a good background in Latin, especially Church Latin. I have often felt that Lutheranism (in the ELCA) was very different than all of the other denominations and I wish that in our Sunday School class that we did not study intensely the background of the Lutheran Tradition. We also attended a (High) Lutheran Church (if one has to describe it) where there were kneelers, incense and all of the parts of the service were always complete either with congregation participation, choir, organ or a combination of all of the aforementioned participants. It also is unfortunate that we are never taught about the other "reformers" before, after and during Martin Luther's time. I even went to a Lutheran College and never heard a word about these men. I had to read about them on my own and came across most of them on the interweb through KZbin, which sparks me to read even more. Great topic and well and eloquently executed!

[@kingnothing2161]

Our church has worship for about 10 minutes, words of sin and grace, another worship song, topicsl sermon for about 40 minutes, final worship song (communion during this every other week) for a total of an hour service most Sundays

[@calvarylutheranchurchlinco8542]

Well done, Rev Wolfmueller.

[@deannajunkin3696]

This hits close to home. I was planning to join a homeschool co-op at a Baptist church. I was required to sign a statement of faith. I expected it to be a generic, non-specific Protestant statement. It mostly was, and I agreed with everything except it included the Baptist understanding of baptism. I sent the director of the co-op an email detailing why I could not sign the statement. I have not heard back. I assume they believe I am "not a real Christian" because I hold a historic, sacramental view of baptism. I have no other co-op options in my area. I feel very alone right now.

[@lensroto]

Enroll your children in a private Lutheran school instead of homeschooling. Often they have funds to help with tuition if finances are an issue.

[@deannajunkin3696]

With all due respect, we have chosen homeschooling for our family. We do have a Lutheran school available, but we have chosen to homeschool for multiple reasons.

[@lyndavonkanel8603]

Good for you for not compromising on the true nature of the Sacrament of Baptism. They wanted your agreement, but they are the ones getting it wrong. But you know what? If they baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit the effects of God are the same as for us who believe in them.

[@Russ1thousand]

Love that window behind you!

[@kenthekat9615]

Let us not forget the Solas: Gace, faith and scripture.

[@rikabosua6000]

Sola Christe sola Deo Gloria

[@lyndavonkanel8603]

The priest's answer seems old to me. Our Catholic mass has two parts, the reading and comentary (homily) of Scfipture then focus turns to the Sacrament. Both are important.

[@lyndavonkanel8603]

@Maximilian-m9g 🤜🤛 Nice to hear from someone who agrees! Also, Sunday homilies average about 15 minutes and at daily mass it's around five minutes. It wasn't mentioned that two readings, a psalm and the Gospel are read on Sunday (the psalm usually sung ). I've heard that typically, in Protestant churches,, one reading, chosen by the minister, is read and the majority of the time there is spent on the sermon. Next to that, is a lot of singing. I went with a friend to her church once and instead of one song at the beginning they sang three or four! I wondered when we would get started!

[@paulsmallwood1484]

Interesting that you did not mention the Reformed tradition which has a strong emphasis on the Word but does yet not ignore the sacraments.

[@cædmon.c]

Good video! I come from the Reformed tradition and I think I might have something to add here. On the face of it, it would seem like we Reformed guys would be shoveled into the "word" pile. However, Book IV of Calvin's "Institutes" emphasizes the sacraments and the importance of the Church in a way most contemporary "Calvinists" might be uncomfortable with (although Calvin's understanding of the sacraments admittedly differs from Luther). The Reformed churches I've attended of late practice the Supper weekly and value it quite highly. In my pursuit of the pastorate, I've been taught by my Reformed mentors to keep the sermon length down and not to go overboard. Maybe there's room for the Reformed to walk alongside the Lutherans in this interesting Via Media between word and sacrament.

[@voyager7]

The anecdote at the beginning was cute...and I think very true as far as common understanding of Lutheranism goes outside of Lutherans ourselves. EDIT: And I fully agree with your thesis on how word and sacrament are intrinsically and inseparably related. The theologies of those on either side follow from their differing perspectives; on the one hand the infusion of grace ex opere operato and the inclusion of sanctification into the article of justification, and on the other ordinances of obedience of a decision theology.

[@dlh7531]

I think as a LCMS Lutheran I think Lutheran is not a fair name for our Church I think Reformed Catholic or Evangelical Catholic is more appropriate as it really sums up what we are.

[@HkP39]

Western Orthodox

[@johnhudelson2652]

I am a member of an evangelical Episcopal church. And the sermons are 30 to 40 minutes long. So there's a balance between Word and Sacrament, like Lutherans. My priest describes us as "Reformed Catholics".

[@crab-time1]

Evangelical Catholic or Augsburg Catholic are both terms us LCMS Lutherans use to describe ourselves. At least, I describe myself as an Evangelical Catholic.

[@timnewman1172]

​@@crab-time1 U.A.C. ... it matters!

[@jtalley8191]

I am catholic and have been continuously studying the catechism of the catholic church. My take on that is the catechism is strictly based on Sacred Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition. The priest's homily is 10 minutes because we spend most of the time reading or reciting Sacred Scripture. This characterization is off compared to my experience regarding the Catholic religion. However, it is MY experience and others may experience something else entirely.

[@michaelstajduhar]

Great comment... I was born to a Catholic father and Lutheran mother and raised in an LCMS church and school. Received into the (Catholic) Church at age 50. I used to adhere to the "Lutheran Balanced" theory but now realize that the Catholic are the best "balanced" between Scripture and Tradition for the reasons you cite.

[@larriveeman]

Scripture trumps any sacrament that is unbiblical, expository teaching is essential, without ignoring biblical sacraments

[@Digitalsurfer265]

This is such a good way of looking at it. It’s hard to explain to my evangelical family that I’m not Catholic or orthodox, but I also don’t subscribe to evangelicalism anymore haha

[@edwardlucas3575]

The Catholic position has and always will be Word and Sacrament. All the historical evidence available shows us that the celebration of the Word and the Eucharist (a.k.a. Sacrament) have always formed a single act of worship. Likewise, Scripture is so intimately intertwined within the fabric of every single prayer that we can say that without Scripture there could be no Catholic liturgy. Conversely, and from a historical perspective it is also partially true that without liturgy there would be no Scripture, for one of the major criteria for determining which books eventually made it into the biblical canon was whether the book was read in the liturgical assembly. Therefore the contraposition of Word and Eucharist does not correspond to an authentically Catholic vision of their intimate relationship.

[@doug8251]

THANK YOU! Don't "think" Lutherans are BOTH Word and Sacrament. We are! 😊 I am a Lutheran deacon (not ordained but commissioned in my congregation). I love the liturgy: we start with confession and absolution, then the scriptures for the day, then the sermon (WORD), then the communion (SACRAMENT), and finally the blessing. I love that we do the communion every Sunday now and that takes us back to what was done in Luther's day. When I was a boy communion was done once a month. Of course that started when Lutherans emigrated to the US and did not have enough pastors for every congregation, so pastors rode a circuit and communion could not be done every Sunday. The very definition of the Church for a Lutheran is in The Augsburg Confession - Article VII. “It is also taught among us that the one holy Christian church will be and remain forever. This is the assembly of all believers among whom the Gospel is preached in its purity and the holy sacraments are administered according to the Gospel. For it is sufficient for the true unity of the Christian church that the Gospel be preached in conformity with a pure understanding of it and that the sacraments be administered in accordance with the divine Word.” For a Lutheran the Church is “Word and Sacrament.’

[@josephwalsh7546]

The advantage of long sermons is people can get into a deeper nap !

[@cecilb48]

ELCA has both Ministers of the Word and Sacrament (traditional concept of a pastor who offers Holy Communion) and Ministers of the Word (who used to be called Deacons and who do everything except offer Holy Communion). Martin Luther believed in the priesthood of all believers so our hymnal includes both a Service of Holy Communion and a Service of the Word (no Holy Communion). We use the latter when our Rostered Minister of the Word and Sacrament is unavailable and members of the congregation offer the service. It’s probably a Lutheran “thing.”

[@jasonkara7281]

As a Lutheran MS, I’m more a meaning of the Sacrament-Word are together. In San Antonio, I don’t really have these churches here, but in Corpus Christi, I was raised that way

[@Free-flyBE]

I listen to Catholic radio while driving because I do love their deep dives into religious history; but I feel they use the word to 'apologize' for all their sacraments in practice! Brilliant thesis - sadly the ELCA of my youth does neither:(

[@j.harris83]

The medium is the message and Lutherans split between the end of medieval age and the beginning of modernity. We are in a new transition time frame but it’s heading the other direction, disenchantment to re-enchantment.

[@theshivers1967]

I laughed, somewhat wearily, at why your meeting with the other conferences wasn’t going to happen. When I was a (n LCC) pastor in Canada, I got on really well with an Anglican rector. We thought that it’d be great that we merge our Shrove Tuesday dinner and use the proceeds to help the vulnerable in our small town. It went about as well as your conference idea, though I’d say yours was particularly unfortunate. The “betwixt and between” conundrum, far more importantly, is both frustrating but promising at the same time.

[@harpgal9950]

Excellent and to the point. Helps me further define my transition from a lifetime of non-denoms to a NALC.

[@dnoslen6124]

But NALC still ordain women. So unfortunately they have not embraced all of sola scriptura

[@sarco64]

@@dnoslen6124 The LCMS allows women to worship without head coverings, so they have not embraced all of sols scriptura either.

[@johnlarson1891]

Good comparison. I was wondering what your thoughts on the different branches of Lutheran. I grew up in the ELCA but currently belong to a Missouri Synod

[@Kaisondavis]

Hi, I am a pronomian, I believe the reason the bible believing traditions distance themselves from the sacraments is because they are viewed as not so much historical but symbolic. Communion for example was passover in the new testament, and remained that way for a good long time before the distinction of christianity from judaism which occured primarily in rome and alexandria caused some slow changes to start to take place. Baptism should be seen in the old testament as well, if you missed that, you are too romanized.

[@charlenepakes8086]

Actually based on what you said, it sounds like the Lutheran church and the Eastern Orthodox Church believes in both Sacraments and the scriptures. The Orthodox Church has followed the teachings of Christ since the beginning. It is wonderful to think of unity of belief between the two churches.

[@OldMovieRob]

That was very informative. You're voice reminds me of Dick Cavett's.

[@GregRampinelli]

I became a Lutheran when I was 16. I'm now an Anglican, because I live in Germany (the Lutheran Church in Germany is pretty weak). Anglicans emphasize sacraments - and the good ones emphasize the Word as well.

[@josephmangas5196]

Great synopsis! I would agree with you. History and tradition are important because they are the results of centuries of Christian practice. Focusing on the word is important because it brings one to and keeps one in the faith. Great video!

[@johngeverett]

We Anglican Catholics feel you - Word and Sacrament, both together, no conflict.

[@lindsaypeek63]

I love the Lutheran church (lcms) after years of being lost in what they call new age teachings manifesting you’re your own God thinking Christians are all wrong and seeking my whole life I came to a point where I knew demons were tormenting me and I called out to Jesus to save me from this. I felt his presence and after I began to truly try to understand which body of people have the reverence for God and all things Holy and I was thinking orthodox was the way to go. I studied them for so long and wanted to go the Orthodox Church I listened to some phenomenal sermons from truly devout orthodox preachers, scholars and monastics . However I just couldn’t bring myself to go to the church. I worried about bowing down or kissing icons and praying to Mary . I was in this limbo for an entire year , needing to be connected to a body but not feeling quite right about orthodox meanwhile the demons had lessened ( I said the orthodox prayers of repentance daily) but I still felt bothered. I think I heard something from Will Weadon and I instantly knew Lutheran was the answer. I went to a traditional Lutheran church and my entire family was baptized there myself, my husband and my 10 year old son. We have found a richness and fullness in the church that I couldn’t even quite see when I first arrived as it wasn’t flashy or overly emotional but it is true to the gospel and that is exciting enough in itself! So thankful for being led here.

[@philipbuckley759]

the fight was not between Protestants and Catholics but the Loyalists and the Nationalists....

[@ralphscholz9533]

Perhaps Lutherans and Sikhs should get together and “compare notes”. Obvious differences aside, the remaining similarities are quite interesting.

[@310McQueen]

Well, there's a verse that says we only see as through a glass darkly... So one guy says, "The house has a front porch under a steep gable." The second guy says, "No, it has three windows on the bottom and two under the roof on top." A third says, "No, you're both wrong, the house has two doors and there's a dormer in the roof." A fourth asks, "What are you smoking? Obviously there's a small nook attached to the wall and no door." And none of these ever wonders if maybe, just maybe, they each see one if the four sides of the SAME HOUSE." Greetings from a non-theologian Pentecostal brother.

[@robsunners]

You have pretty much summed up my current dilema in this video. I live in the UK, in a rural area, and I was in the CofE for many years but had to move on last year due to all the changes that are happening regarding marriage and "blessings". My family and I moved to a non-denom church which is strong (for the most part) in the Word, but has little time for the Sacraments. In recent times I have realised how much I miss this and how necessary and good they are. My options here are one or the other, or the Catholic Church. How I'd love for there to be a confessional Lutheran church nearby.

[@johnhouchins3156]

Confessional Lutheranism is growing in the UK, thanks to many east-asians emigrating to there. The congregations are indeed small, but search for them. God's blessings to you!

[@davidw.5185]

Generally speaking: To me the saddest thing in American Lutheranism is the rejection, in practice, of every Sunday Communion, or at least offered once per week. The second saddest thing in American Lutheranism is tying the reception of the Sacrament to the artificial ages of 13-14 years old. The third saddest thing in American Lutheranism is people putting off the baptism of their children for weeks and or months for a multitude of reasons. In our practice we demonstrate that American Lutheranism often doesn't fit into the evangelical catholic faith of the Lutheran fathers. So find it wherever you may, because Lutheran doctrine and practice is not commonly available these days. We mostly see intermittent flashes here and there. I wish we could make a better confession before the world...

[@judirollings3959]

The reason reception of the Sacrament is tied to a certain age (12 where I come from) is because in order to take the Sacrament you had to study for one year the history and theology and practice of the Lutheran religion. Upon completion you were Confirmed. At confirmation you took your first communion. This is so that you, as a youth, understood exactly what the Sacrament is about. It is not arbitrary - it is simply tied to the level of maturity a youth needs to understand the history and teachings of the scripture and the church.

[@Chris-wf6km]

It seems Wolfmueller never interacts with people who comment on his videos?

[@joelkuykendall8564]

As a Lutheran I always believe that we were both Word and Sacrament. Not either or.

[@dosgatosnegros]

I really enjoy your videos. However you may not be aware many of the ads are both invasive and corrupting of your messages. You might see about unmonitizing or better placement.

[@jacobbiguvu]

Well said, pastor. As a Lutheran church deacon, I would explain the same using different words, focusing on the distinction between rituals (sacraments) and knowledge (Word). If believer focus primarily on rituals (sacraments) without giving sufficient attention to God's knowledge (the Word), he risk becoming ritualists, stuck in the rituals and not growing to be Christ-like. Conversely, if believer concentrate solely on God's knowledge (the Word) without incorporating rituals (sacraments), he may rely too much on his reasoning and miss out on true salvation from God. Luther taught a balanced approach with a perfect aim. Lutherans view both the Word and the Sacrament as equally important. However, in the spiritual journey, he tend to focus more on the Word rather than the Sacraments. This is because Lutherans see Sacraments as temporary and external signs of God's grace to us in our spiritual journey, while the ultimate goal is to grow in God's knowledge (the Word) and become Christ-like. The Word is permanent and eternal. We need it both during our life on earth and after life. In contrast, sacraments are temporary and necessary only during our earthly existence. According to the Bible, we don't know how to live in this world so we need a guider. The guider is available through the means of God's grace. I've also noticed that in Lutheran worship, the Service of Sacrament is sometimes omitted, but the Service of the Word is always presented (as mandatory and essential).

[@BKNeifert]

But it's not ritual. You misunderstand the sacraments by saying that. Lutherans have two sacraments, which are the divine merging of man with God. Communion is the New Sacrifice and Baptism the New Circumcision. And "Word" is actually a good word, because faith comes by hearing, and that through the word of God. It's not just knowledge you gain from a Sermon but God's word and direction in your life.

[@frederickjohnsen4246]

The priest probably threw up in his mouth when Mother priestess said “we.”

[@davecorns7630]

I find the lutheran tradition so unique and beautiful

[@dnzswithwombats]

Don't feel bad. I don't fit in with anyone at all, apparently.

[@krbohn101]

The simplest and most True understanding is always the hardest for sinners to want to believe. Thanks for the video!

[@antiheroes7972]

Well said and while i dont come from a sacremental tradition I think Lutheran's strike a good balance. As a Baptist/ "Charismatic with a seatbelt" I have a lot of respect for Lutheran Theology. I generally agree with most of the positions of your churches, but ultimately I see the same under discussion of the Holy Spirit that Baptist have(also the cautions from Paul about misusing the gifts). Other than that i really just enjoy/ grew up in a Baptist/non-denominational tradition and see no need to change to an equally good tradition such as Lutheran. I often see Lutheran's compared to Calvenist and Catholic, but I find Lutheran's to be different from both of those traditions while maintaining more of the historic aspects of the church which is beautiful. Great video and God Bless

[@john1693ta]

Having been a life long LCMS and recently Orthodox because of the filioque, I can say Orthodox don't like being lumped in with the "Latins" any more than Lutherans do. The gospels and epistles are read every Divine Liturgy, and Psalms read at Matins, and in the common language of the people. As for Sola Scriptura, St. Paul told the Thessalonians to obey both the written and oral Apostolic tradition. Of course, those do not disagree. Lutherans are not strictly Sola Scriptura, since they confess the Western Creeds, none of which can be said to be truly ecumenical, since only the Nicene Creed without the filioque was written by the whole Church represented in council and used by the whole Church throughout the world, the Eastern Churches never used the Apostle's or Athanasian Creeds, or accepted the Pope's version of the Nicene Creed. I find it passing strange that Lutherans insist on remaining in bed with the Pope, but they do, no matter how long and earnestly Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople wrote to explain that the Procession of the Spirit was His eternal source of being from the Father, as was the Begetting of the Son His. See the book 'Augsburg and Constantinople.' You can't come along 1100 years later and change the meaning of the terms and claim to be confessing the same creed.

[@jacobklug1691]

This is super helpful. Thanks!

[@KellyOGrady-jm9hr]

The Lutherans and Catholics are both word and sacrament. Lutherans though are different because they make a mockery of the Eucharist as the True Presence. I can buy bread at a bakery. Of course they also disavow Apostolic tradition and authority as well. Luther was all about power after all. Pray for us all

[@armoredplacoderm]

Lutherans also believe in the real presence of Christ. The only difference is that Lutherans believe there is also still bread, and Catholics believe there is no bread. This is a trivial and stupid difference. The important thing is the presence of Christ, not whether or not the nature of bread persists after consecration. The presence or lackthereof of bread and wine does nothing to shake my faith or offend my sensibilities. I guess I'm just too focused on Christ to care about the metaphysics of bread.

[@tomburnham5119]

Thank you for this. The United Reformed Church in the UK (a merger of Presbyterian and Congregational churches) ordains it's clergy as Ministers of Word and Sacrament. It's also of interest that John Wesley, who certainly wasn't for short homilies, also retained a High Anglican view of sacraments. Finally (and tongue in cheek) didn't the apostle Paul once preach for so long that one of his heaters fell asleep and fell out of a window?

[@OttoCharles49]

Thank you again for speaking truth. I’m a Lutheran brother in Tulsa.

[@caman171]

Well I am Baptist but I do know a little history. There was a time when Anglicans only had communion once a month and their sermons were very long (think Whitefield and Wesley). They even forbade celebrating Christmas. So what the lady "priestess" didnt say was that the Episcopal church BECAME more sacramental/liturgical as a way of "uniting" around ritual in order to NOT deal with the bible. To say that she was from a "sacramental" tradition in the same way as Catholics is ludicrous.

[@paulsmallwood1484]

They do fit in in this sense. The Lutheran tradition has true believers and true churches in its midst.

[@davidacharles1962]

Reformed Baptist pastor here. We preach about 40 min in the divine service and have the sacrament every week. The difference is when we gather we are not looking to get out as soon as possible.

[@voyager7]

What do you mean by "the difference" here?

[@P-el4zd]

No offense but Baptist, Reformed or otherwise do not have the sacrament or the Divine Service (Mass). It is interesting you are using the terms “sacraments, divine service”. Baptist have a totally different operation and meaning of those terms, which are not normally used in Baptist circles.

[@P-el4zd]

Baptist: we have a 40 minute sermons. 30 minutes of fluff building up to the last 10 minutes of an actual sermon followed by an “altar call”.

[@BalaamsAss51]

Our sermons are not "Bib;e classes".

[@davidacharles1962]

@@P-el4zd Lutheran''s did not coin the terms. If you like, I can show you statements by English Reformed writers from 17th century that often spoke of the divine service and sacraments.

[@marciamazuryk3918]

As a former Catholic, I feel that this is what the Church was and is supposed to to be before men wove their own rules into it. Although I’m not a huge fan of Luther as a man (he wasn’t very nice in some aspects) I believe he wanted to return the Church to what it was meant to be.

[@CrownTown10]

I love C S Lewis’ description of denominations in “Mere Christianity”, and and profoundly appreciate the fact that none of this would be possible without the Blood of Christ. Keep seeking His Will for your life daily. Blessings!

[@BirdDogey1]

I regularly attend non dom bible studies so I can better explain CL doctrine. Forgiveness is often absent in the teaching I hear at "Word" churches. Heavy focus on sin and you have to do better. Little talk on faith. They wouldn't understand means of grace.

[@DanielBShaw]

Good to hear the non dom churches are still talking about sin. What is CL doctrine?

[@BirdDogey1]

@@DanielBShaw Confessional Lutheran (conservative).

[@DanielBShaw]

@@BirdDogey1 Ok, so attending non dom Bible studies shows the contrast. That's interesting because I'm a Baptist and I've been studying Lutheran theology. I like the Law/Gospel distinction, and I've embraced the Lutheran view on election. I agree that Baptist/non dom churches have a weak understanding of grace.

[@richv3742]

I’d like to see Confessional Lutheran Pastors and theologians have more conversations on platforms like KZbin with Non Denom church goers and pastors. I think it would be interesting and edifying. There’s plenty of Confessional Lutherans that have evangelical family and friends, who are in need of hearing true doctrine. The biggest issue is they mix law and gospel unknowingly. Most have never heard about law and gospel, nor do they have any actual understanding of it. It’s very convoluted in those churches.

[@DanielBShaw]

@@richv3742 This may sound strange, but I think Baptists and Lutherans have more in common with each other than with Reformed Christians. For example Baptists and Lutherans both believe that Jesus died for everyone. Also, Baptists and Lutherans both believe that God's grace is resistible. Limited atonement and irresistible grace distort the good news of the Gospel.

[@ejeanroh377]

P.S. I'd like to understanding more about this tension between Word and sacrament... ? ?

[@changjsc]

This is very insightful

[@UVJ_Scott]

If the Catholic Church doesn’t have the Priesthood of Christ then none of the other churches (branches) that protested and broke off from the corrupt trunk can have any authority.

[@bluedog562]

I was in North Conway New Hampshire and the Nativity Lutheran church had a July 4th booth with a big gay pride flag. In talking to the members they said Lutheran manual supports lgbt affirmation. They also said Jesus died so all people are forgiven not matter what they believe. She said the Bible never condemns homosexuality. Is that the Lutheran position?

[@itsSven]

excellently put.

[@markevans8054]

A lady preacher ? I hope someone pointed out her error.

[@craigborgardt6396]

As to all five religions not being able to agree to even get together for the conference, reminds me of the old & great 1951 film "The Day The Earth Stood Still" where in his hospital room after being shot upon landing, a government official tells Klatu why the ALL of the earth's countries cannot come together as requested. The reasons were the typical, divisive absurdities that we see today. In the end, before departing, Klatu gave up on them and simply warned that if the earth's nations continue on their pathway to nuclear armaments and ventured into space with them that their planet would be "reduced to a burned out cinder". I see God in that warning and eagerly anticipate the New Heaven and New Earth when God finally has had it with this realm and hits the universal "Do Over" button.