Why the Orthodox Veneration of icons, Saints, and the Theotokos is Not Idolatry

Excerpted from a interview of Fr. Peter Heers by Michael Sisco, November 2020)
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[@Troy-Moses]

Even the most esteemed vocalists sing love songs to the object of their affection. Their lyrics could be something to the effect of: Baby, baby, I love you; let's climb the mountain and swim the ocean; and gaze into the stars all night long; you and me for eternity, never leaving your side... Yet no one accuses these singers of idolatry. Now, the Orthodox sings love songs of adoration to our pure Mother -- the Mother of God -- and we are accused of the sin of idolatry. Do the Saints not deserve greater praises than the secular love songs we know so well?

[@leannewheeler5351]

Hey Baptist here. I appreciate this and im glad to have a better understanding. I am reading more about Orthodox christianity and letting God lead me.

[@AngloProtestant]

I was raised Baptist and have rediscovered my faith after decades. I'm doing the same. I see this comment is 6 moths ago. How goes your journey?

[@beaubangston8211]

​@HBDisReal I was a part of the baptist church prior to converting to Orthodoxy. I encourage you to look into church history and you will discover that protestantism is false. Did you know that the bible wasn't put together for the first few centuries of the church? How could the early christians know anything about God if sola scriptura is true? The church Infalliably put the bible together. This is universally agreed upon by all Christians. Why would the church only be infalliable when it comes to the bible, especially when none of them believed in sola scriptura and none of them were protestant. In order to be protestant you have to believe that every christian was wrong about God and the nature of the church for the first 1500 years until martin Luther. Martin Luther by the way removed books from the bible because they didn't fit his new beliefs about God, and he wanted to remove revelation and was barely talked out of it. Who gave him the authority to do that?

[@AngloProtestant]

@@beaubangston8211 I appreciate your point of view. Although Christians of the earlier period did not have a fixed canon of scripture in place for the first few centuries, it is important to note that during this time, core teachings of Christianity were passed down orally and through apostolic tradition; hence the formation of biblical canon was a process that took centuries guided by the Holy Spirit acting through the consensus of the church. However, this would be wrong to say that the early church agreed on an infallible authority for putting together Bible. The books which should be included into Canon were disputed among early Christians and it is only after hard deliberations and guidance from Holy Spirit that Canon became established. This is because Protestants understand sola scriptura as meaning that scripture alone is considered as being decisive in their faith and practice rather than ignoring catholic tradition or authority. It serves as a standard upon which all other teachings and traditions are evaluated. It is true Luther’s questioning certain books’ canonicity led to his role in Reformation, but his actions formed part of a larger movement to reform Church according to his biblical understanding. 

[@samuelrosenbalm]

@@beaubangston8211 You are way out in left field. Yes, the New Testament canon was not complete, but they had the Septuagint (which Justin Martyr revered as completely infallible), and they had the apostolic letters and Gospel accounts - we can see numerous, unending attestation of this in the writings of the apostolic fathers and the early church fathers, and to such a great extreme that there can be no doubt that they were seen as ultimately authorities for all matters of faith and practice. Just read Clement or Polycarp. Do they reference icons or the magisterium or theosis or any of that nonsense? NO! They constantly and unceasingly quote scripture after scripture after scripture. Even up until the third and fourth centuries, when heresies were combated, appeals were made to scripture and not to church authority. And it's just so completely lopsided that I am utterly shocked that you would think the early church confirms your apostate beliefs. Mary wasn't even referred to as Godbearer until the nestorian fiasco, and that was more to emphasize the nature of Christ than to say anything at all about Mary. So I have done my research. There is bupkis to justify EO doctrine in the early church, and especially nothing to be found in God's Word. And that's really what it's all about. God's Word is a light for His people. All throughout the Bible, we are told about His Word. EO is another faith, another God, another Gospel, and another Jesus.

[@joachim847]

What a great answer! Thank you Father! 😊 I sometimes think about how protestants do not actually have _zero_ icons, they do have one. It's the cross. But they are taught not to depict Jesus on the cross, so it becomes an icon of a tree with no fruit, a holy place with no high priest, and a throne with no king 😢

[@nicktobin4002]

Also, the Bible is a collection of symbols, images. Each word carries meaning and depicts or contextualizes something. The Bible is a visual depiction, a transcription of God's revelation. It is a holy image in a way, similar to an icon. It is my understanding that icons were part of how the illiterate learned about scripture.

[@mangispangi]

@@nicktobin4002 do we pray to the bible though? No one denying the power in things from their contact with God. But people still continue to pray to God not the objects or people touched by Him.

[@nicktobin4002]

@@mangispangi who is the Word of God?

[@mangispangi]

@@nicktobin4002 Jesus Christ. And He is THE ONLY mediator and saviour of mankind.

[@nicktobin4002]

@@mangispangi nobody is talking about the worship of wood or paint. The Saints are with Christ in heaven, we ask them to pray for us like your congregation prays for you. A holy man's prayer availeth much.

[@sergiusbasillius336]

An icon on the computer screen, isn't the program but only an image that represents the program. An Orthodox Icon is an image that represents the person, not the person itself.

[@faith-hearted1449]

And we shouldnt pray to an image, only to God. The bible is clear on this. "Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them." Psalm 115 Jesus is the only mediator.

[@faith-hearted1449]

the Bible states clearly that Jesus is the only! Mediator between us and God. We have to read the whole Bible, not only some verses. There are so many examples in which God warns us not communicate with the dead. Even Saul called one of the prophets after his death, Samuel, and it was bad that he did this.

[@therealkingbaldwin]

@@faith-hearted1449 nobody prays to images these days except pagans and Hindus

[@caleschnell]

@@bugsbundy1494 Do you suppose they're in heaven right now as we speak or are they in the grave awaiting the resurrection of life? The idea that as soon as you die you're in a complete tripartite state in heaven is a *gnostic* belief. It denies the bodily resurrection of all those who profess and live faithfully in Jesus Christ.

[@papayaking3730]

@@bugsbundy1494facts

[@plumeria9990]

Great explanation. This is always a point of protestant contention.

[@maximussuffarion7767]

Some prot said we’re pagan and occult for doing it

[@maximussuffarion7767]

I had to point out that Luke made the first icons of the Theotokos and they followed their error to its end and called him an idol worshipper. Very sad.

[@mangispangi]

@@maximussuffarion7767 did Luke pray to those icons?

[@visancristian8450]

@@mangispangi Yes, to the persons depicted on the icons. Do you pray to Jesus depicted on letters? You don know that letters are also symbols, do you? Jesus is the Son of God- see the letters? Now I will wrote a prayer for you. Jesus, save my soul from the protestant darkness and enlighten my mind and heart to understand Your truth. See? The letters depicted Jesus as a Person and you had great veneration for His Name, yet you prayed to His Person. Anyway, the holy icons are the prove of God dwelling in His Creation, they are not just windows towards the uncreated. God is not in a dialogue from far away with us. The purpose of our existence is theosis, deification. We remain creatures, but we partake on the divine nature(2 Peter1), via the uncreated energies of God, His uncreated grace. How do you escape idolatry if you don't believe God can penetrate and permeate with His grace, the entire Creation? You have a lot to learn: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sH7MY4WXbchoaKM

[@maximusatlas9377]

If the world was more Orthodox we would have a better and stronger Church.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

Babies dying in their baptism services? What are you talking about?

[@OrthodoxEthos]

You’re talking about a fluke. One time. You used the term services, in the plural. Are you angry about something else in the Orthodox Church?

[@OrthodoxEthos]

Please provide the links.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

You obviously are impassioned and have a bias if you write in such a way to someone you don’t know.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

If you think we are “freaks”, why do you even spend time on this platform or even talking to the Orthodox?

[@CynthiaWithLove]

When my grandmother died I remember kissing her photo and telling her I loved her. Not worshiping her, just thinking of her and missing her. I'm not sure it's the same thing though. I'm processing all of this.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

The Lord said, all will rise, some to judgment, some to life, eternal. This means that they are not dead. But awaiting the resurrection of all mankind. The Saints, those who are pleasing to God, have gone to paradise. (The Lord even said to the thief: today, you will be with me in paradise.) They have a foretaste of eternal and blessed life. They are not dead. God is not the god of the dead, but the living!

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

That's not the biblical definition of death. When Lazarus died, Jesus declared him as dead. Biblically death is defined as when a soul departs from its earthly body. We don't get to redefine the meaning of death to endorse necromancy or communication with departed souls.

[@CynthiaWithLove]

@@OrthodoxEthos thank you father for explaining that.

[@zeefranx4509]

@@dustindustindontworry-jz8dhwrong he said he was asleep

[@TheMhouk2]

that was before our Lord destroyed death on the Cross. @@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh

[@optimisteprime8261]

God bless the orthodox Church !!!

[@maaikekamstra7353]

5:15 Wow wow wow. Sorry i am so enthousiastic. This is so beautifully explained and said. I love you Father. Coming from a Protestant background i could not understand Christianity. As i was a little child Jesus was my friend. Really He was my friend. I take him to places to play. He was my invisible friend in a very disfunctional household. I could say, He was my Father and Mother because my Father and Mother in the flesh where very hurted souls (dispite there dogmatic Protestant believe=system) I leave the Church, not because of Christ but of the strangeness of the Protestant teachings. The Church was like a graveyard, a cold tomb. The believe is very sad. They say: " you are like a worm, you are sinfull disgusting creature", and at the same breath:".you are a child of God, he created you". There was no warm feelings in the Church. Now i am learning and reading the Saints (Gregorry of Palamas, Saint Paisios, John Chrysostom, Father Thaddus) and listen to teachings on this channel, it is like a tressurebox, a gift from heaven. It is like i was reading the bible in Chinese language and now for the first time reading it in my own language. I can not believe how they did this, how could people ever listen to Calvine, how can someone leave this beauty, this Beautifull Bride, this wonderfull Church and start to life in a graveyard-consiousness. Butchering the teachings, neglected the Saint who are the living withness of THIS HOLY TEACHING. Without THEM there is no WITHNESS. Without the Saints, the teachings make no sense. Jesus Christ become a mythe, like Zeus or whatever imagined fairytale you want to believe in. Father Peter Heers is this desem in the bread, the condence of the Holy Churchfathers who teach us, and behind him ARE THE SAINTS, like a chain of Pearls, and when we follow them, we become LIKE them. For the first time I pray with Icons, kiss them, put them to my heart. They become my friends because i don't have any Christian friend (because of my previous livestyle....I know only very leftist friends who disagree with me on every point....hahaha they think i had loosed my mind totally and maybe this might be the case....) but now I have trough the Icons Holy friends. And for long time, i can connect again with the innocent believing child i once was. How beaytifull, how rich, how precious is the time we live in. Utterly dark and obviousley demonic, we don;t have to doubt the narrative of the Bible and the Saints any more. We can see it with our own eyes and feel it. The contrast is so immens, that the Heaven break open for us, everyday when we praise Our Lord, The Saints and The Holy Thetokos, Mother of God. Thank you dear lovely Father.

[@YTG33]

How are things turning out for you? It has been a year since this comment, give us an update, are you still praying with your icons? What about your leftist friends? Are they still your friends or did you go separate ways?

[@permanenceaesthetic6545]

Glory to God in the highest!

[@cristina.mazilu.preoteasa]

Beautiful testimony! May God protect you!

[@Iffmeister]

This is honestly the ONLY major thing that is a barrier for me

[@icxcnika2616]

Barrier of what?

[@Iffmeister]

@@icxcnika2616 becoming Orthodox. I don't think there's enough scriptural warrant for the practice at all. I virtually have no problems with the other orthodox theology as much as this.

[@gobucs3146]

To understand the use of icons is to understand the Incarnation.

[@Durnyful]

Did the people not venerate John the baptist? The pharisees knew they could not speak against him because he was venerated by the people as being sent from God. Was Mary not venerated in the very early church and through all subsequent generations because of her obedience to God? 38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And as a result of her obedience.... "For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed." Read some of the lives of the Saints, they showed the same attitude as Mary, that is why they are highly esteemed and venerated. They are simply great examples to us as was the apostle Paul - imitate me he said. These are people who were greatly sanctified, by venerating them we give glory to God who transformed them and pray that we may in some small way emulate them. I am a former Protestant but don't find this to be a barrier or contrary to scripture at all once its true meaning is understood.

[@panokostouros7609]

You say you have no problem with the rest of our theology, but the Icon is crucial to it all. The whole universe is a giant icon, pointing to the glory of God, culminating in the Incarnation of the Logos. Let go of your underlying modern prejudices.

[@stavrouladeessegloria]

The Church: Everything is in Christ and for Christ ☦️♥️

[@sakellarioudimitris7439]

We are the prosphora and the nama! The Body and Blood of Christ!

[@sakellarioudimitris7439]

Άξιος father! That's what the world needs to know! I'll pray for you!

[@qrstfdsa4606]

AMEN 🙏 LOVE BEING ORTHODOX.

[@pouke.otaca.pravoslavlja]

Apostle Luke painted first icon,theres no reason to call him idol worshipper

[@christisking970]

Not even that the ark of the covenant had cherubim

[@EM-ox3rw]

How do we know this is true?

[@georgesofocleous943]

Where in the scriptures does it say he did such a thing?

[@rishalcharles420]

source?

[@DKjellby]

Thank you Father for the answer! ☦️🙏❤️

[@Rockydirtwater]

Another analogy I like to give in defense of the veneration of icons to protestants is in Americans treatment of our flag. We fold it a very certain way for very symbolic reasons, we burn it if it touches the ground, we all stand, and place our hands over our hearts when it is raised. But nobody is accused of worshipping the flag or America when this is done, even the most evangelical protestant knows its done out of RESPECT and HONOR which is exactly what we do with the veneration of Icons and the treatment of Holy things, places, relics, etc.

[@paulwilliams9207]

thank you Father its good to hear things so.clearly defined.

[@faith-hearted1449]

"Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them." Psalm 115

[@DKjellby]

To show respect to Orthodox icons is not the same to show respect to graven images or idols. The second commandment in the Bible forbids the worship of graven images and idols. However, the use of Orthodox icons is not a form of idol worship. Orthodox icons are not worshipped themselves, but are venerated as symbols of the holy figures they represent. The veneration of icons is not the same as the worship of idols or graven images, which is explicitly forbidden by the second commandment. Instead, the use of icons is seen as a way to connect with and honor the holy figures they represent, and to deepen one's spiritual connection with God. And there are verses from the Bible who says that you can make an image. One example is Exodus 25:18-22.

[@lowballinn]

@@DKjellby God instructing Moses to carve two cherubims does not mean that we should do, afterall God can tell people to do different things. In Exodus 20:4 we are forbidden from making images of anything heavenly. "Venerating" icons is quite literally idol worship the way orthodox christians do it.

[@stavrouladeessegloria]

Psalm 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Luke 20:37-40 37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. 39Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said. 40And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.

[@SonnyWane]

I'm going to be honest, this didn't make sense to me. Can someone explain in a simpler and more concise way, how kissing and worshipping these icons is not idolatry and avoids violating the 2nd commandment?

[@jayjayfreeman]

I'll second that. I like the icon images for their aesthetic quality and from an art history perspective, but this whole idea of venerating them and kissing them in public creeps me out. Overall, having so many saints really confuses me, always has.

[@SonnyWane]

@@jayjayfreeman I love religious art work in general and I think they serve great purpose, but the fact of the matter is is that the LORD did prohibit it and the veneration of these kinds of images. I just haven't seen a decent justification of why it's possible to do so. On the other hand, I have been struggling with the notion characteristic of the protestant reformation, that we are saved by faith alone. I tend to disagree with the idea that salvation is something gained purely though an intellectual exercise or verbal admission. It doesn't sit right with me, so I'm a bit stuck.

[@rowangoldsmith1269]

they dont worship them. you are using the icon to connect with what is on it.

[@SonnyWane]

@@rowangoldsmith1269 Sounds like your saying: they are worshipping not the actual material, but what the material represents. To that I would say: that's what the hindus do too.

[@rowangoldsmith1269]

@@SonnyWane not worshipping. Just asking them for the intercession

[@anastasiatsatsakouli6181]

Very interesting informative video, with a fresh and different line of argument. Thank you for posting 💯🙏☦️

[@tomkuhns2394]

Very good explanation!

[@OrthodoxEthos]

Is this my old builder friend, Tom Kuhns from PA?

[@PhillipOnWater]

I thank God for the enlightenment of Orthodoxy. Thank you God for allowing me to find this truth

[@gerardgrywacheski1418]

God bless the Holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council as well as the Venerable and Holy Saonts John of Damascus and Theodore the Studite in their defense of the Holy Icons!!

[@reeafu9290]

I like these discussions so much, thank you so much and be blessed. As an Orthodox from a country which is since the Apostles’ time Orthodox-Romania- it warms my heart to see discussions on Orthodoxy in English.

[@malcolmhardage2959]

Let me ask you this -- did Jesus or the Apostles use icons or teach the first century Church to use icons? No. If they didn't use them, then they are an invention of later uninspired men, and we should not use them either.

[@DKjellby]

To show respect to Orthodox icons is not the same to show respect to graven images or idols. The second commandment in the Bible forbids the worship of graven images and idols. However, the use of Orthodox icons is not a form of idol worship. Orthodox icons are not worshipped themselves, but are venerated as symbols of the holy figures they represent. The veneration of icons is not the same as the worship of idols or graven images, which is explicitly forbidden by the second commandment. Instead, the use of icons is seen as a way to connect with and honor the holy figures they represent, and to deepen one's spiritual connection with God. And there are verses from the Bible who says that you can make an image. One example is Exodus 25:18-22.

[@geozaharia3715]

Da, Sfântul Evanghelist Luca ,care era medic, dar și picta , a realizat prima icoană a Maicii Domului cu pruncul, numită "Povățuitoarea". De asemeni avem icoanele nefăcute de mână omenească, prin puterea Lui Dumnezeu, s-a imprimat chipul Mântuitorului pe mahrama Veronicăi în mod miraculos, chipul Domnului imprimat pe o pânză trimisă regelui din cetatea Edessa pentru vindecare etc. Dacă ați renunțat la Sfânta Tradiție, ați renunțat la multe informații păstrate de-a lungul istoriei Bisericii, ați renunțat la o comoară, preferați să fiți săraci și cereți mereu dovezi în mod raționalist, cum cereau și fariseii Domnului Hristos.

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

No scriptural support for icon veneration, it wasn't taught or practiced by the Apostles. That's just a fact.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

Saint Luke was the first iconographer. Who gave you the Scriptures? The church. The church is the pillar and ground of truth. According to scripture. Obedience to Christ means obedience to the church. One and the same.

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

@@OrthodoxEthos What instructions did Christ and Luke give about venerating statues in their likeness? Christ is HEAD of the Church and our obedience is to Christ, who commands us to worship in Spirit and Truth. The Church is full of fallen men who have according to scripture oftentimes introduced practices that go against God.

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

@@OrthodoxEthos Saint Luke was a gospel writer. Sure, he like any other author would have at times drew pictures/paintings to tell a story. Luke creating artwork isn't an endorsement of icon veneration. If Jesus himself were to have painted a picture of Mary himself, that wouldn't stand as an endorsement of kissing, bowing before or "praying through" said painting.

[@DKjellby]

To show respect to Orthodox icons is not the same to show respect to graven images or idols. The second commandment in the Bible forbids the worship of graven images and idols. However, the use of Orthodox icons is not a form of idol worship. Orthodox icons are not worshipped themselves, but are venerated as symbols of the holy figures they represent. The veneration of icons is not the same as the worship of idols or graven images, which is explicitly forbidden by the second commandment. Instead, the use of icons is seen as a way to connect with and honor the holy figures they represent, and to deepen one's spiritual connection with God. And there are verses from the Bible who says that you can make an image. One example is Exodus 25:18-22.

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

Bowing before a person as veneration: Genesis 42:6 2 Samuel 1:2 Psalm 72:9 Genesis 33:3 Genesis 43:26-28 Genesis 49:8 Exodus 11:8 Ruth 2:10 Exodus 18:7 1 Samuel 24:8 1 Samuel 25:23 2 Samuel 15:5 2 Samuel 18:28 1 Chronicles 21:21 Kissing a person as veneration: Exodus 18:7 2 Samuel 15:5 1 Peter 5:14 Luke 7:38 Romans 16:16 Bowing before a created object as worship to God: Joshua 7:6 Psalms 98(99):5 Psalms 131(132):7-8

[@twaho]

Not sold, this and intercession of the departed is the only things holding me back from orthodox

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

Same. And the fact that they pray to dead saints as well. The idea of venerating, kissing or praying through a statue turns my stomach.

[@Alexander07865]

Yup, plus work based salvation and infant baptism. It’s like Catholicism or Catholicism is like Orthodoxy, either way they r both wrong. Go by the word of God not by the word of men. God bless. Repent and trust in Jesus

[@twaho]

@@Alexander07865 John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, *What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?* 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, *This is the work* of God, that *ye believe* on him whom he hath sent. If we have to believe to be saved, this scripture tells us that belief is a work.

[@DKjellby]

To show respect to Orthodox icons is not the same to show respect to graven images or idols. The second commandment in the Bible forbids the worship of graven images and idols. However, the use of Orthodox icons is not a form of idol worship. Orthodox icons are not worshipped themselves, but are venerated as symbols of the holy figures they represent. The veneration of icons is not the same as the worship of idols or graven images, which is explicitly forbidden by the second commandment. Instead, the use of icons is seen as a way to connect with and honor the holy figures they represent, and to deepen one's spiritual connection with God. And there are verses from the Bible who says that you can make an image. One example is Exodus 25:18-22.

[@twaho]

@@DKjellby The word proskuneó is the word described in "veneration" of saints according to the orthodox doctrines. Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to *worship (proskuneó)* before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: *worship (proskuneó)* God. Biblical interpretation of what you regard as veneration *(proskuneó)* is worship throughout the new testament writings. Furthermore we are instructed not to worship (proskuneó) the fellow risen servant but to worship God.

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

1. The second commandment (Ex. 20:4ff) explicitly describes what is prohibited: making an image and bowing to it. Doing that very thing but claiming the images are not really idols but "icons" and the bowing isn't really worship but "veneration" is not convincing. 2. Canon 36 of the Council of Elvira states, “Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration.” This is the accurate translation. 3. Origen(184-254) responded to Celsus by admitting that Christians used no images; he mocked the notion that images were helpful in worship, and, citing the Second Commandment wrote, “It is in consideration of these and many other such commands, that they [Christians] not only avoid temples, altars, and images, but are ready to suffer death when it is necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they have of the Most High God.” (Origin, Contra Celsus, Book VII, Chapter 64.) 4. Eusebius (c. AD 263 - 339) wrote that even the incarnate Christ cannot appear in an image, for "the flesh which He put on for our sake … was mingled with the glory of His divinity so that the mortal part was swallowed up by Life. . . . This was the splendor that Christ revealed in the transfiguration and which cannot be captured in human art. To depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation, on the other hand, is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error." 5. Epiphanius (inter 310-320 - 403): "I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loath that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person." He goes on to tell John that such images are “contrary to our religion” and to instruct the presbyter of the church that such images are “an occasion of offense.” (Epiphanius, Letter 51, chapter 9).

[@allahpartyinfo652]

bro u r a christian or a jew? u have greate knowledge of the religion; it would be nice if u provide me a mean to have a conversation with u

[@johnleontakianakos4362]

Iconography is not art. Icons are “written”; not “drawn”. Iconography is a language. It speaks to us. Jesus the Christ is the WORD of God. The Bible is a book describing the word of God. It is written text. Just like Iconography is written. The word “iconography” is derived from the Greek words “eikon” meaning “image” and “graphos” meaning “to write.” The icon image is a visual symbol of the invisible. Icons express in images the spiritual realities that are inexpressible in words and inaccessible to our rational mind. Iconography is an important theological truth. A theological principal the concept of the incarnation. The truth that the invisible God, took on flesh and became visible in his creation. That changes the way we deal with the physical. Our gift of site has been given to us to honor and glorify God. Iconography is a supreme gift designed to stir up a love and devotion for who is depicted in the iconography. It is a physical, beautiful reminder of love devotion and affection; a remembrance. Orthodox iconography calls us to proper honor and veneration. We, ourselves, are living icons of God as we are made in God’s image. Iconography played a very important role in the early days of the Church as the literacy level was extremely low. The entire Gospel is written out on the walls of Orthodox churches in “images”.

[@joellynmaggio2787]

I disagree, to draw is to produce a likeness or representation of by making lines on a surface draw a picture draw a bowl of fruit draw a graph with chalk to give a portrayal, of : delineate a writer who draws characters well. I have two grown sons who are artists 🎨, they are drawing, painting, or sketching their artwork in the image of something. They are not writing words and then putting them on a canvas or whatever, they are drawing. Words written would be a bible or book. The two are very different. When an artist thinks of something somewhere in their mind, they are translating what they see in their mind or what they describe in words and then drawing it on paper. So drawn images are a interpretation of what one reads or what a person might be thinking. That being said, this has been going on for years from pictures carved or drawn in Egyptian tombs to photographs we see today. They tell a story in a visual way. I have pictures of my children, grandchildren, spouce, and parents, and I admire them for what they represent... but I would surely rather kiss them and hug them in person than the photo. But if someone has died, it gives me something to remember them by. It gives comfort.

[@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh]

Perhaps Eusebius' letter to Constantia (the sister of Constantine the Great) may be helpful. Constantia requested that Eusebius (the church historian who authored The Church History) send her an image of Christ, and Eusebius wrote her the following response. I quote a translation of it here, at least the full of what survives to this day: Translation by Cyril Mango, from The Art of the Byzantine Empire 312-1453 (1972, rep. 1986), p. 16-18. Letter from Eusebius of Caesaria (circa 260-399 AD) to Constantia. [I marked notable portions in bold.] "To depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error." You also wrote me concerning some supposed image of Christ, which image you wished me to send you. Now what kind of thing is this that you call the image of Christ? I do not know what impelled you to request that an image of Our Saviour should be delineated. What sort of image of Christ are you seeking? Is it the true and unalterable one which bears His essential characteristics, or the one which He took up for our sake when He assumed the form of a servant? … Granted, He has two forms, even I do not think that your request has to do with His divine form. … Surely then, you are seeking His image as a servant, that of the flesh which He put on for our sake. But that, too, we have been taught, was mingled with the glory of His divinity so that the mortal part was swallowed up by Life. Indeed, it is not surprising that after His ascent to heaven He should have appeared as such, when, while He-the God, Logos-was yet living among men, He changed the form of the servant, and indicating in advance to a chosen band of His disciples the aspect of His Kingdom, He showed on the mount that nature which surpasses the human one-when His face shone like the sun and His garments like light. Who, then, would be able to represent by means of dead colors and inanimate delineations (skiagraphiai) the glistening, flashing radiance of such dignity and glory, when even His superhuman disciples could not bear to behold Him in this guise and fell on their faces, thus admitting that they could not withstand the sight? If, therefore, His incarnate form possessed such power at the time, altered as it was by the divinity dwelling within Him, what need I say of the time when He put off mortality and washed off corruption, when He changed the form of the servant into the glory of the Lord God… ? … How can one paint an image of so wondrous and unattainable a form-if the term ‘form’ is at all applicable to the divine and spiritual essence-unless, like the unbelieving pagans, one is to represent things that bear no possible resemblance to anything… ? For they, too, make such idols when they wish to mould the likeness of what they consider to be a god or, as they might say, one of the heroes or anything else of the kind, yet are unable even to approach a resemblance, and so delineate and represent some strange human shapes. Surely, even you will agree that such practices are not lawful for us. But if you mean to ask of me the image, not of His form transformed into that of God, but that of the mortal flesh before its transformation, can it be that you have forgotten that passage in which God lays down the law that no likeness should be made either of what is in heaven or what is in the earth beneath? Have you ever heard anything of the kind either yourself in church or from another person? Are not such things banished and excluded from churches all over the world, and is it not common knowledge that such practices are not permitted to us alone? Once- I do not know how-a woman brought me in her hands a picture of two men in the guise of philosophers and let fall the statement that they were Paul and the Saviour-I have no means of saying where she had had this from or learned such a thing. With the view that neither she nor others might be given offence, I took it away from her and kept it in my house, as I thought it improper that such things ever be exhibited to others, lest we appear, like idol worshippers, to carry our God around in an image. I note that Paul instructs all of us not to cling any more to things of the flesh; for, he says, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. It is said that Simon the sorcerer is worshipped by godless heretics painted in lifeless material. I have also seen myself the man who bears the name of madness57 [painted] on an image and escorted by Manichees. To us, however, such things are forbidden. For in confessing the Lord God, Our Saviour, we make ready to see Him as God, and we ourselves cleanse our hearts that we may see Him after we have been cleansed… [Footnote] 57 “the man who bears the name of madness” is Mani the founder of Manichaeism. [Mani is the heretic after whom Manichaeism, a form of gnosticism, is named. Eusebius talks about and condemns his heresy in "The Church History", book 7, chapter 31.] It is very notable to me that this was written in the fourth century, where it was observed by Eusebius that the use of images was "banished and excluded from churches all over the world, and is it not common knowledge that such practices are not permitted to us alone?" I bring this up because it seems to me that Christians who are lured to the Orthodox or Catholic church have this notion that they are somehow getting in touch with the ancient and original Christianity, but from the looks of this letter from Eusebius, it looks like the original Christianity actually took the Bible's commandments about not making images and not venerating them very seriously. It looks like what is being passed off as a historic Christianity is actually Christianity that has strayed from its roots. Consider this passage from History of Eastern Christianity about the Church of the East: Then suddenly came the age of re-discovery1 of their little community as a revelation to a bewildered world. The story started with a certain Claude James Rich, then Resident of the British East lndia Company in Baghdad, who was not a man of religion but happened to he highly cultured and possessed of a very keen interest in archaeology. He visited the ancient site of the Biblical city of Nineveh in 1820, and his report2 on the area excited all manner of circles, both scholarly and missionary, in England and America. At long last he revealed to the English-speaking races the astounding facts about the Assyrians, who still conversed in a language similar to that spoken by Jesus and the Apostles and whose peculiar form of Christianity called for study and sympathy. A systematic archaeological exploration was commenced by A. H. Layard.3 On the religious side, however, the Nestorians were evidently and traditionally anti-popish and had neither icons nor crucifixes in their churches, only a simple and symbolic Cross. Their attitude towards the Virgin Mary was much akin to Protestant conceptions. Could they be the ancient ‘Protestants of the East’? Hence ensued a deluge of missions and Protestant missionaries to those forlorn sons of a historic church in their Godforsaken abodes. The Church of the East split from the Great Church (a.k.a. the "one holy catholic and apostolic church" prior to any major schism) at the council of Ephesus in 431 AD, over Nestorius (patriarch of Constantinople) being falsely condemned and excommunicated for a heresy he didn't teach, with Cyril of Alexandria (patriarch of Alexandria) prosecuting him with a misrepresentation of his teaching, accusing him of teaching that there were two Christs, one human and one divine, because Nestorius taught that Mary ought to be called the Christotokos (the "mother of Christ") rather than Theotokos ("mother of God"). (See Know the Creeds and Councils, Chapter 3, Council of Ephesus.) From that time on, Nestorius was known as a heretic in the west, but as a saint in the east: Mar Nestor. My point in quoting Eusebius and this portion about the Church of the East is that it shows that the image venerating sects of Christianity are not representing some sort of continuity with early historic Christianity, the very thing that Protestant converts to Eastern Orthodoxy find appealing. Rather, image veneration appear to represent a deviation from what the church originally practiced for at least its first four centuries, as confirmed by these two witnesses-Eusebius, and the Church of the East-I can't say it better than Eusebius said it, so I'll quote him again: can it be that you have forgotten that passage in which God lays down the law that no likeness should be made either of what is in heaven or what is in the earth beneath? Have you ever heard anything of the kind either yourself in church or from another person? Are not such things banished and excluded from churches all over the world, and is it not common knowledge that such practices are not permitted to us alone?

[@johnpeskey4519]

Exactly!💕

[@OrthoNepali]

May the two speakers here forgive me for any offense I have done against them

[@runjr032]

Best answer I have seen so far. I would say that people do pray to The Virgin Mary and to other Saints. Saints that the church,(not God) , has canonized.If it is the position of the church, that you shouldn't pray to. Saints or Mary. Only to God. Then you have changed my mind.

[@philoalethia]

Irrespective of whether it is idolatry, apostles and angels in the New Testament clearly forbid the veneration of themselves and command that Christ alone should be worshipped. The employment of fancy words doesn't change this. Orthodox confuse the issue by saying (1) we aren't worshipping the person, but just respecting and honoring him (or her), and then (2) we are worshipping the image/likeness of Christ in that person. Pick a lane, friend. If we are merely showing honor and respect, then it is not culturally normative to kiss, pray to, bow or prostrate, etc., to or before images (in the West, at least). Don't command or expect acts normally, culturally associated with worship and say they are merely respect honor. If we are worshipping, then just be honest about it (and then deal with the passages that clearly forbid it). There is some controversy, confusion, and ambiguity regarding the use of images, statues, and similar in the early Church. The preponderance of the evidence is clear that such things were generally discouraged or at least rare in early liturgy. Further, we have ZERO evidence of the veneration of images (i.e., prostrating before, kissing, praying to them, etc.) in the early Church. Over time (centuries) their employment in liturgy and liturgical spaces increased, leading to great controversy and a council (Nicaea 2). By then -- almost 800 years after Jesus -- various Church leaders asserted that the veneration of icons was normative, required, and even apostolic. It is routine among Christian groups to attempt to read their current practices back into the early Church (or prior). Roman Catholics do this with Papal Supremacy. Orthodox do it with icon veneration. Ultimately, worship is an attitude of the heart that expresses itself through word and action. Culture is what dictates which words/actions constitute one or the other. In modern Western culture, kissing images, praying to them, bowing or prostrating before them are acts that represent worship.

[@nathanmelton827]

Nailed that one shut.

[@homescholed]

What about in revelation 22:9-10 when John fell and worshipped (προσκυνῆσαι) the angel and he said to not do that. Worship (προσκύνησον) God.

[@geozaharia3715]

Pentru că aceia erau păgâni și credeau că apostolii sunt zei, din moment ce fac minuni. Apostolii au vrut ca ei să înțeleagă că fac acele minuni cu puterea Lui Dumnezeu. Creștinii îi cinstesc pe sfinți pentru ca ei reflectă puterea Lui Dumnezeu. Sfinții sunt icoane ale Lui Dumnezeu, căci au ajuns la ceea ce trebuie să ajungă toți creștinii, la asemănarea cu Dumnezeu. Orice om e creat cu chipul Lui Dumnezeu (are rațiune, voință , simțire, libertate, capacitatea de a creea etc.), dar el trebuie să ajungă la asemănarea cu Dumnezeu (sfințenie), iar asta se face numai conlucrând cu harul Lui.

[@LaureOlsonFriesen]

Thanks!

[@OrthodoxEthos]

Thank you so much for your support! We are indebted to you! Please pray for us! Good struggles!

[@OrthoNepali]

May both of the speaker here forgive me for any offense I have done against them

[@bogeprentoski4576]

I am an Orthodox Christian, and my cousin is protestant and says the saints in heaven do not hear our prayers because they are not omnipresent, and i know only God is omnipresent but, How can i answer his question? Please reply and Thankyou in advance for your answer. 🙏

[@OrthodoxEthos]

Read the lives of even the contemporary saints and see how many examples there are of the Saints who hear our prayers and the contemporary living elders hear the prayers by GOD’S GRACE and by God‘s power and by God‘s divine energies. Of course, it is GOD who is omni-present and brings to the knowledge of the Saints our prayers.

[@MrRickkramer]

God makes all things possible, I’m thinking He made some kind of “Divine WiFi” with billions of angels helping Him. So if God wants the Saints to hear our prayers, why not. They’re on the same team so it seems obvious. And as Father Peter stated, living Saints hear our prayers too sometimes. Can you imagine trying to sleep with that going on?

[@hima1one]

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses..

[@xaviercopeland2789]

@@OrthodoxEthosthey are living, not dead.

[@athinea1975]

Revelation 5:8; 8:3-4: "In heaven the elders and angels offer up the prayers of the saints as incense before the throne of God."

[@christislord316]

An orthodox priest said it like this. His kids went to a picture on his wall of their deceased grandfather and kissed it. And when asked: “who did you kiss?”, they replied “Grandfather”. Obviously the picture itself is not their grandfather, but it is the person that the picture represents they were talking about. An icon is the window to the person it portrays. The icon itself is nothing other than a plank of wood and paint.

[@partlysimpson5154]

Are the catholics also praying to dead? Like close family members who aren't saved even, who didn't seek lord, they still keep contact with them?

[@paddydobbs2318]

so when the Israelites created the calf and said tomorrow is a festival to Yahweh.. they knew the statue wasnt YAHWEH but it was worshipping through the statue... how is that different? God was still angry and rebuked them.

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

Because the Israelites did not know what God looked like and created a statue from their own imagination.

[@christisking970]

@@Journey_of_Abundance also Jesus became flesh purifying matter so that's why we are allowed to depict him. He has a physical body

[@troll707]

Bruh. Respecting a person depicted in an image isn’t the same as calling something a god and worshipping it

[@christisking970]

Dude i guess moses was an idolater.. bcuz the temple he created had icons..the angels on the tabernacle,

[@puromichoacan4213]

The reason why its NOT idolatry in my opinion its cause i understand these crosses and statues of saints to be just that . (Statues) just that plastic or ceramic materials and if the statue was to get broken or replaced (although i would see it kinda messed up cause its desegration of an image of god) I would have no personal attachment to the statue itseld in that sense , casue god is everywhere and if a statue breaks for example just replace it with more materials .. in my opinion having an attachment and WORSHIPING the statue as oppose to worship that god that is in the universe, and just usinf the statues ti remind of us of Jesus but knowing jesus is not in the statue but ALIVE IN HEAVEN and taking care od ua here on warth. God bless your brothers, amen.

[@thomasjnemeth]

I ask as an outsider coming from an evangelical background...how does one differentiate between when one is veneration and worshiping? Externally, it's hard to tell the difference from my perspective. Is it more so about an inward disposition?

[@richcook2007]

They define them in the beginning of the video.

[@michaelvigil3436]

@@richcook2007I think he’s asking for an actual explanation, not just a recitation of the different definitions.

[@rms-vp6hf]

Like the black stone it is required for salvation.

[@joellynmaggio2787]

What is that?

[@chad14533]

So is veneration a form of Divine worship? Since we are glorifying God through glorifying his Saints??

[@OrthodoxEthos]

The honor shown to the icon goes to the prototype.

[@christisking970]

No cause we know the image isn't God or his actual saints in the image but serves as a focus to keep your mind locked on God

[@georgesofocleous943]

I don’t see anything in the scriptures saying that we should venerate or rever icons.

[@jg7923]

Got to make money some how right ? Icons are big money makers.

[@alabamamotionpictureproduc6626]

You can print icons off and mount them onto scrap wood if you don't want to spend money on it. There are KZbin videos on how to do it.

[@mercedesvan-doors34]

Exedous 20: 4-6 4.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; It doesn't just say you should not worship them, it says you shall make NO image of anything in heaven or on earth etc, it also says thou shall not bow down before them, nor worship them. Have you watched an orthodox Christian bow before the images, images that should not be there. For anyone to read this scripture and then believe the verbal machinations used to justify their use astounds me.

[@DKjellby]

Icons and graven images are not the same.

[@mercedesvan-doors34]

2nd Commandement: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. Tell me then, are they liknesses of anything in heaven or earth, do Orthodox folks bow before them? Don't misunderstand me here, I see much in the orthodox faith to be praised and good, I'm not a hater.

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

​@@mercedesvan-doors34 the context of the commandment is idolatry. By definition we are not idolizing icons.

[@mercedesvan-doors34]

@@Journey_of_AbundanceYoy bow before them, you kiss them you ascribe miracles to them, what else is it?

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

@@mercedesvan-doors34 It is veneration. I understand that our veneration looks more like worship than literally anything in protestantism, but it is an error to assume this makes it worship. Rather, the implication is that protestantism is exceedingly shallow in regards to its reverence of anything Holy, whether that be God directly or God indirectly through the created things which emanate God's Grace.

[@OrthoNepali]

May both speakers here forgive me for any offense I have done against them

[@reformedpilgrim]

I'm a Protestant. Is veneration required for salvation?

[@leo11190]

I don’t stumble on icons nor the veneration of them… but praying to them is where I’m stuck. I adore my grandchildren and kiss their pictures, but I don’t pray to them. Can someone please help me out here? I just don’t have the revelation yet…. Or maybe this will be another video?

[@joelandrew9688]

Prayer is to ask, so we ask them to pray for us unto God

[@dariopirtea5409]

We don't pray to the icons but to the saint whose icon it is in our face. Don't confuse the icon with the saints whose image is in the icon. The icon is an image of a saint, but not the saint himself and the veneration of the icon goes through a window to the saint whose image is in the icon.

[@paddydobbs2318]

like the golden calf when Israel made it and said tomorrow is a festival to YHWH because they were going to use it exactly as youv described? and Gods wrath was kindled against them... remember the golden calf was to be used as an image for God not to be God Himself and He was furious... He does not change

[@dariopirtea5409]

@@paddydobbs2318 That is the idolatry to replace God with an image. We don't replace the Lord Jesus with His icon. You don't understand that the icon is not the same thing with its prototype.

[@dariopirtea5409]

The Scripture says: ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬ “And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.” In the Bible writes that the people said unto Aaron: “make us gods”, no make us an image of the true God.

[@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded]

the amount of protestant cope in this comment section is hilarious

[@partlysimpson5154]

Pride has to go

[@justinbrasfield6417]

I get the idea of honor and respect. I would love to get totally on board, but I have questions about some of the practices, let's say at Vespers, when we commemorate and honor saints. For instance, we'll sing about someone's life, then say somethign like, "we glorify thee/you." I understand the concept of Holy Tradition, and that the Orthodox Church doesn't believe in Sola Scriptura. I respect that. I'd like to be able to understand how the idea of honoring/glorifying saints in song is Apostolic and in line with Scripture. I was trying to find an example of this sort of thing in the Old or New Testaments. I'd like to find one. I think I might have found one in the Psalms but not sure. Any help with that would be appreciated.

[@EM-ox3rw]

The Greeks, for example, who made idols to their gods, are not worshipping the wood or the marble or whatever matter they are created from?? They are worshipping the demon that is Apollo or Aphrodite or Poseidon which is only visibly represented by the statue. How is that different than worshipping Jesus as represented by an image made of paint?

[@NJP9036]

Is the iconographic a priest, deacon, or monk? Thank you Father Peter.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

The iconographer? He/she could be a layman or clergy.

[@acekoala457]

There was a great Iconographer Nun in Eastern Washington and her Icons are known worldwide, I accidentally got a replica of one for my Prayer Corner. Iconographers come from all walks.

[@TrentonErker]

The other half is praying to the saints. That makes saints seem like gods, or at the very least that the prayers of some are not received or as powerful as those of others.

[@The_Albanski]

Only Jesus is worth worshiping. The Orthodox Church is wicked

[@carsonbaird3904]

The prayers of a rightous person are powerful scripture says this

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

​@@tonybased2061 he's literally citing scripture

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

The saints in heaven are aware of what happens on Earth. This is explicitly in the scriptures many times

[@rishalcharles420]

@@Journey_of_Abundance where

[@An_American_Man]

There is no difference between worship and veneration found in the scripture and no difference as they are found in the ancient Hebrew culture that received the commandments from God. To me, it is clear that there is a reason we see no Hebrew "veneration" of icons of biblical pillars like Moses, Noah, Isaiah, etc. This is because the understanding has always been that anything like what EO calls iconography is, in fact, idolatry.

[@psa110]

So, as long as one does not worship something in place of God it is OK? One must ask that if you are just honoring and respecting extraordinary believers from the past when do you cross the line into idolatry? Is it as long as you claim you are not doing so? I honor and respect some great figure from the past. I might even have a picture of them hanging on the wall (e.g., George Washington). But do I think he now can feel or know I am honoring and respecting him when I gaze at the picture? That is, do I think he has some supernatural ability to receive that communication whenever I do it? Do I think he now knows me and is able to convey to God my need for grace and help in time of need? In other words, do I think he now has the attribute of omniscience? There is a difference in keeping an icon as a reminder to live a certain type of life and what I just described. But to attribute God-like abilities to a human being is idolatry.

[@rubemartur8239]

1-Giving honor =/= adoration, as it only occurs while recognizing Who is Our creator, Who saved Us, Who will say the Last Word which will be an Order to His whole universe, as He always did since Old testment. This notion clearly doesnt apply to saints. 2-God is God of life. So being alive is an atribute given by Him. To Hear prayers its not an God-Like hability, as everyone still live after dying within Him. 3-There is no Time-space aspect after life, there is no place and no time in heaven. Is meaningless, Past is present, Present is present, Future is present, so any final choice we do before our death will mark us eternaly as followers of God or enemies of God. 4-Jesus Christ redempted His Mother before she was born, an redemption that would occurs time in our future, which doesnt affect the dimension where God and His saints are. 5-God wanted us to participate in His Glory, as Angels do, while being creatures. We continue to serve Him after our life on Earth, but now without the danger of sin, as we eternally had choice of being with Him forever. We will not have problems about pride, any glory we receive will be offered as Glory to God (Just like Mary did, asking Jesus to help, despise the occasion wasnt the moment for His appearence).

[@paulazkoul4894]

There is so much father says that is inaccurate. His description of likeness and image of God is true but it stop distant from how the likeness and image of God connect with icons. What he says as far as kissing an icon in the same way as we kiss a photo of a loved one is the go to answer for every clergyman I have ever heard describe what an icon is, but so wrong. I have never and will never use the analogy of kissing an icon as we do a photograph as synonymous. His explanation as to why reverencing an icon is not idolatry is very vague and not done well.

[@samosdolphins123]

in the second commandment in the old testament says ου προσκυνησεις.... has the meaning of the word changed since the septuagint was written?

[@christisking970]

2nd commandment Is about false gods..moon goods,sun gods etc.

[@zeefranx4509]

This and calling the priests father are what are preventing me from converting. Even the Bible says not to call anyone on earth father as we only have one father. Anyone care to explain this

[@carsonbaird3904]

Jesus was using hyperbole(over-exaggeration) to make a point. paul calls himself father 1 Corinthians 4:15 "Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." that verse if read in context also tells you to call no man teacher, what did you call your math teacher? what do you even call your own father?

[@rsns776]

Brother convert by the Lord's Guidance and Yeshua Hamashiach's good news (He died on the cross for us). Don't let the world misguide you but let the Lord guide you brother.

[@dawetlivebyfaith]

If we look at the story of Moses, God gave Moses a bronze serpent to heal people but later on people start worshiping the object. Icons similar effect instead of making us closer to God, they take away the worship from God. Even it’s for a purpose of veneration but because of luck of knowledge a lot of people will be mislead

[@gabrielosejos3182]

Well, as a Christian, I put this video to see if this gentleman can argue anything in favor of the Catholic custom of prostrating oneself before images, but I was completely wrong. What a poor and empty argument. Mary didn't even believe in her son's mission, besides, Jesus never called her mother, and also that Jesus had more biological siblings. Exodus 20:4-5 is explicit. However, despite the very words of the Lord Jesus in John 14:06, they are obsessed with images and paganism, with pomp and ceremonies...

[@OrthodoxEthos]

The Mother of the Lord did indeed believe in His mission and He indeed honored her. Luke 11:27-28 (KJV) states, “And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” Some Protestant translations mistranslate the word Μενοῦν to say “no, rather...” The Lord was saying that His mother is blessed not merely for having given birth to Him but because she heard the word of God and kept it. She was absolutely faithful to God and was therefore blessed to bear God in her womb. It was the Archangel Gabriel who announced to Mary, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” (Luke 1:28). God sent an angel to announce to her and to the world that she is the most blessed woman. Joseph was an elderly widower with children from his reposed wife, and these were the siblings spoken of in the gospels. The reason why the Lord entrusted His mother to St. John when he was on the cross is because she did not have any other biological children to care for her. Joseph took her in as a caretaker since it was not permitted for women to live in the temple past the age of 14, but they did not have marital relations nor children. By the time the Lord was crucified, the elderly Joseph had reposed, which is why he could not care for her after the Lord was crucified. The mother of the Lord showed her faithfulness to her son by remaining by Him when He was crucified despite his disciples (except for John) abandoning him (John 19:26). She also remained with the disciples after his Resurrection and Ascension and remained in the upper room on Pentecost (Acts 1:14). The earliest histories of the Church show St. Luke the writer of the gospel as the first to portray Mary in an icon. This icon was copied and venerated throughout the early Church. Icon veneration has nothing to do with pagan idolatry. This topic was examined very carefully at the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the whole Church agreed that to reject the veneration of icons is to reject the Incarnation and the Scriptures.

[@gabrielosejos3182]

@@OrthodoxEthos My mistake, I expressed myself poorly. Maria, like every Jew, believed in a political messiah at first, but upon seeing what Jesus did, she ended up accepting his spiritual mission rather than a political one. And Jesus never said in that verse that his mother is blessed. What kind of comprehension do you have? When does Jesus mention Mary? Jesus himself refers to her as "woman" not mother in John 2:4-8, because the Son of Man knew that if he said anything more, it would be a pretext for people like you to misinterpret his words and treat a mere human as divine. If it wasn't Mary, it could have been anyone else. In fact, it's so unimportant that the lineage of David passes through Joseph to fulfill the prophecy of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, descended from David. By the way, ecumenical councils mean nothing in front of Jesus' word. I repeat John 14:6, "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" It's important to emphasize the "except through me," closing the door to any misinterpretation, just like Exodus 20:4-5. God is clear, and the word of our Lord cannot be changed or altered by mere humans.

[@mysteryandmeaning297]

To venerate and worship in dictionary both say mean same depending on dictionary used : to adoration, respect, to worship and revere. An object of veneration or worship it says. לְהַעֲרִיץ in hebrew venerate is to admire, adore, venerate, worship, revere, idolize. Worship in greek is to praise or venerate. Think denial here and ignoring obvious. He talks right around it. Honor and respect is fine. Art work is fine but praying to or at venerating, worshiping like objects icons is idolatry in old testament and new. The first church discovered archeologists uncovered in jordan they did not find any icons or art work on the walls. The destroying of sacred art in the iconoplast era prompted doctrines to protect the Art and in came the icon ideology

[@OrthodoxEthos]

“Veneration” does not always imply “Worship”! It could imply worship, but it could also refer to an honorific bow. When a hotel porter bows to a guest, surely he isn’t actually worshipping the guest! He is merely honoring him, with a respectful bow. In the case of God, however, this respectful bow is also a gesture of worship. When a Christian bows before one of God’s (sanctified) people, he is not worshipping that person; he is merely honoring that person as a person of God. In the same way, when he bows before the icon of a Saint, he is not worshipping the icon; he is paying homage to the person portrayed on it. But : if the icon portrays the Lord Jesus Christ, then only is the portrayed person worshipped; not the image, but the actual person that it portrays. What kind of veneration is forbidden by the Holy Bible? Let’s take a look at a few passages of the Holy Bible that are used by contemporary iconoclasts, in their attempt to convince us that veneration is the same as worship. They make reference to the incident in Acts, 14:11-15, where the crowds attempted to offer sacrifices to Paul and Barnabas (because they thought those two were the gods Jupiter and Mercury), but the two Christians outrightly refused. In this instance, the sacrifice that was going to be offered was in the context of worship, as the people had mistaken them for gods. This was not a case of honorific veneration, hence it was only natural that they would refuse a gesture befitting God only. In Exodus 20 : 4,5, in one of the 10 commandments, it refers clearly to likenesses of anything found in the skies, or the earth, or the sea: “you shall not prostrate yourself before them, nor worship them.” Here, we have the following comment to make: To begin with, (even though the 10 commandments were still in force), this passage again implies a prostration of worship, and not just an honorific veneration. This can be seen in Deuteronomy 4: 12-19. It is very clear, that it refers to a likeness of god, and not of creations. It is therefore speaking of a prostration of worship, which is what is forbidden. Honorific veneration is not forbidden. It speaks in exactly the same way, wherever prostration of worship is addressed to a likeness of gods. (for example Isaiah 4: 9-20) The phrase “you shall not prostrate yourself before them, nor worship them” is a Hebraism; a characteristic, Hebrew form of speech, where the same thing is repeated, using different words which have a slightly different significance. Here, the word “prostration” is used along with the word “worship”, consequently implying a prostration of worship. Another, similar Hebraism is found in the familiar words of the Lord’s mother, when she prophesied together with Elizabeth in Luke, 1: 46,47: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced, in God my savior”. We also notice the same thing in Hebrews, 13:5: “I shall not leave you, nor shall I desert you”. The examples are many more. These passages therefore do not prohibit every kind of veneration; only the veneration/prostration that accompanies worship. They forbid *prostration of worship*.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

Regarding your very mistaken ideas about veneration of icons being idolatry, see: www.oodegr.com/english/ekklisia/praktikes/eikones1.htm And regarding your mistaken comments about early church temples (but even Hebrew temples), see: www.oodegr.com/english/ekklisia/praktikes/eikones3.htm

[@OrthodoxEthos]

You have to become like a little child full of simple love and affection for our Lord to understand: “A young man called me recently to discuss his family’s movement toward the Orthodox Church. He told me a priceless story about how his seven-year old daughter helped him and his wife understand an Orthodox practice that is often a hindrance to inquirers. Although the family had icons in their home they could not grasp the reason for the practice of venerating (kissing) them. One evening after prayers with his daughter she looked at the icon in her room and asked, "Who is on those pictures, Daddy?" He replied, "The Virgin Mary and Jesus." She picked up the icon, kissed it and hugged it to her chest exclaiming, "Oh, daddy, they love you so much!" "Then," he told me, "We understood. It's all about affection." Love, in fact, is the heart and soul of the theology of the early Church Fathers and of the Orthodox Church. The Fathers of the Church-East and West-in the early centuries shared the same perspective: humanity longs for liberation from the tyranny of death, sin, corruption and the devil which is only possible through the Life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Only the compassionate advent of God in the flesh could accomplish our salvation, because only He could conquer these enemies of humanity. It is impossible for Orthodoxy to imagine life outside the all-encompassing love and grace of the God who came Himself to rescue His fallen creation. Theology is, for the Fathers of the Orthodox Church, all about love.”

[@mangispangi]

@@OrthodoxEthos and yet it's not the same as praying. The act of praying is an act of worship and not veneration.

[@barbaramazzocca4605]

I also looked it up in a dictionary. Venerate means to show respect and reverence to someone who is NOT a deity. You forgot that part.

[@johnjohortaleza4993]

Isaiah 44:9-20 9 All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame. 10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit nothing? 11 People who do that will be put to shame; such craftsmen are only human beings. Let them all come together and take their stand; they will be brought down to terror and shame. 12 The blacksmith takes a tool and works with it in the coals; he shapes an idol with hammers, he forges it with the might of his arm. He gets hungry and loses his strength; he drinks no water and grows faint. 13 The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in human form, human form in all its glory, that it may dwell in a shrine. 14 He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak. He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow. 15 It is used as fuel for burning; some of it he takes and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread. But he also fashions a god and worships it; he makes an idol and bows down to it. 16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, “Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.” 17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, “Save me! You are my god!” 18 They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. 19 No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, “Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?” 20 Such a person feeds on ashes; a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, “Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?

[@synthesaurus]

Asking Theotokos for salvation goes against the message of the Gospels. Can you follow Christ without praying to the saints and Mary or it is essential for salvation?

[@joshuaduncan235]

I struggled with this until I realized that as a Protestant I was not using the word “save” in a Biblical fashion. For instance, St. Paul said that he was trying to “save” people (1 Cor. 9:22). He instructed St. Timothy that he could “save” others and himself (1 Tim. 4:16). St. Paul knew that neither he nor St. Timothy were the Savior of the world. Only Christ fills that role. In the same way, as an Orthodox Christian I can say, “O most holy Theotokos, save us” and know that she is not the Savior of the world. But she does pray for us and can “save us” by pointing us to the Savior Himself. To your second question I would say no, you can’t fully follow Christ without praying to the saints because that is something He has called us to do. Can God save someone who does not pray to saints? I would guess yes (only He can answer that definitively). But why would a Christian not use one of the gifts that God has given us that can help us in the process of salvation? Honestly, I don’t like the question of whether a particular thing is “essential for salvation” or not. I think it is based on a misinterpretation of what salvation actually is.

[@synthesaurus]

@@joshuaduncan235. I understand what and why is being said in defense of icon veneration. But it seems odd that a church is filled with many different icons of the Theotokos and various saints and people choose to spend time at these ikons instead of venerating the Lord Himself. I also realize that different ethnic churches have cultural accretions that have little to do with Orthodoxy. For example bringing food to the ikons where the prayers for the dead are performed. Also there are cultural variations in how one venerates an ikon. Does it mean that in some culture not kissing an ikon would be just as “orthodox”?

[@joshuaduncan235]

@@synthesaurus if you haven’t had the opportunity yet I think it would be great if you were able to visit some Orthodox services. Then you would see that we spend almost the entire service praising the Lord Himself, singing hymns, reading Scripture, and praying to Him. We do also spend time venerating icons, but the percentage of time focusing on icons of the Theotokos and other saints is small. I think it stands out to Protestants because it feels so foreign. You could think of it in this fashion: some Protestant services have a specific time during the service when the congregants will greet one another. This is in some ways similar to what we do with icons. We take a few minutes to greet these saints with a holy kiss.

[@joshuaduncan235]

@@synthesaurus also, it’s not that food is being brought to an icon when we pray for the dead. There is food that is blessed during those prayers, but it is not offered/brought to an icon. It’s blessed and then we eat it.

[@synthesaurus]

@@joshuaduncan235 thank you for your response. Is it common to bring jewelry and place it behind glass that covers an ikon? There are few ikons like that in my OCA church. Also, it seems that people of slavic origin have very different approach to ikon veneration etc. what about the “special” ikons people make pilgrimages to and almost seem to idolize them?

[@dimyoll]

7:00 and love

[@DKjellby]

Here is another video for those who still not understand that icon veneration is not idolatry: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b5apkqGYh8-af68

[@Alexander07865]

1:04 exactly. Worship God not creation. Repent and trust in Jesus

[@DKjellby]

To show respect to Orthodox icons is not the same to show respect to graven images or idols. The second commandment in the Bible forbids the worship of graven images and idols. However, the use of Orthodox icons is not a form of idol worship. Orthodox icons are not worshipped themselves, but are venerated as symbols of the holy figures they represent. The veneration of icons is not the same as the worship of idols or graven images, which is explicitly forbidden by the second commandment. Instead, the use of icons is seen as a way to connect with and honor the holy figures they represent, and to deepen one's spiritual connection with God. And there are verses from the Bible who says that you can make an image. One example is Exodus 25:18-22.

[@Alexander07865]

@@DKjellby you can think it’s “respect” but God is very jealous and hates idolatry. Exodus 20:4-5. So repent and trust in Jesus

[@Alexander07865]

@@DKjellby 1 Timothy 2:5 says there is one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. Repent and trust in Jesus

[@Alexander07865]

@@DKjellby So u saying God is contradicting himself? God told the Israelites to make an ark of the covenant. Did he tell you to paint and draw images of people from the Bible? No, quite the contrary. Exodus 20 is clear on that. God is clear. Gif is jealous. Do not make him mad. Or his wrath will abide in you. John 3:36. Repent and trust in Jesus

[@DKjellby]

@@Alexander07865 You don't have to repeat ''Repent and trust in Jesus'' all the time.

[@DefendingTheName777]

Two nature: The God Being versus The Human Being. The Nicene Creed declares Jesus The LOGOS as being "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God." When humans are created we become living souls with human agency. The LOGOS brought forth by the Spirit of God (John 4:24) has only the Devine agency and that no other human agency, that is owing to a new living soul was created because the LOGOS is uncreated. As Jesus would say in the Garden of Gethsemane "not my will but your will", later Jesus would comment "The Spirit is strong yet the human nature is weak". You have a war between two natures being played out, the Devine nature versus the Human nature and only one agency prevailing, that is the Devine agency of the Father's will, otherwise why would Jesus say? "Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me." It is clear that Jesus differentiated the Devine agency owing to the Devine nature of the LOGOS from that of the human/flesh nature. There was no harmonious hypostasis union of two natures, but rather a war coming to a crescendo, where Jesus differentiates the Devine nature which is NOT flesh (John 4:24) to that of the human/flesh nature which is the brain, when he states "The Spirit is strong yet the flesh is weak". Jesus sweated drops of blood from human/flesh nature's pain and anguish as the human brain is in a fight or flight mode with hormones going of the chart and brain impulses going of. A perfect hypostasis union of two natures wouldn't portray a vast contrast between a strong Devine nature and a weak human nature, unless it is conveying that the LOGOS has voluntarily placed himself in the place of His servants as The Suffering Servant of Isaiah. What does sweating blood mean physiologically? Hematohidrosis occurs under conditions of extreme physical or emotional stress. What was going on with his human nature? If two agencies were contending with one another then one was strong and the other weak, yet at the end regardless of the physiological factors only one will owing to the Devine agency won out, why? And what does that tell us? Father's Will won out at the expense of the human will? Where is the harmonious hypostasis union in that? Actually this would only make sense if you discern that only the Devine agency was present and the Devine agency literally tore that human nature flesh/tent apart and caused it to go into Hematohidrosis in order for the Devine to physically experience real suffering through the physical human flesh. The LOGOS suffered and took that human nature and nailed it to the Cross and the very same Devine nature as He said He would do, raised it after three days. The risen Lord as Paul said retired that human nature form that He took on for those 33 years and then put on the Heavenly nature form as the Lord of Heaven, the Last Adam. Is the Lord human or does He retain His humanity (human nature)? Neither. The 1st Adam didn't have a mother and God was his Father, so too, is the Last Adam who is the Son of God and doesn't have an earthly mother. How can the risen Lord who is the first fruit of the Resurrection have a mother if He is the first of the New Creation of God and that all of us are to be born again by the Fire and the quickened of the Spirit? First Adam was born of water and blood (1 John 5:6) and the Last Adam is born of Fire and Spirit (Matthew 3:11). Human nature (1 John 5:6) as opposed to the Heavenly nature (Matthew 3:11). Further evidence after the Lord's resurrection the Lord said His Heavenly Body is flesh and bone, in the absence of blood. Thomas touched the wounds and did not observe any blood gushing out of His open wounds and a human body doesn't miraculously enter rooms unannounced without using doors or windows as a physical human nature body does. Since blood and DNA is absent and it follows that there is no genetic markers that would link the risen Lord to Mary as his mother. In fact Jesus said in the resurrection there are no family unions between husbands and wives, but are as the angels in Heaven. Saint Paul also excludes genealogies from the question of the resurrection and further adds that we are born again as sons/daughters of God as the first Adam was before he was kicked out. Yet in the Heavenly bodies that are given in the resurrection, Paul differentiates them from the earthly tent and equates the form to a totally different form to that of the earthly and John in 1 John 3:2 doesn't comprehend the Lord's form, as he was with the Lord when in human nature form, yet John states what "we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." The mother of God title therefore uses the term God to refer to only one member of the Trinity while excluding the other two members and therefore theologically this term can never be applied outside of the Trinity who is the One True God and the One Substance declared in the Nicene Creed. Using the title the mother of God is therefore theologically none-Trinitarian by application of the term and results in a form of blasphemy by using the Lord's name in vain. Even the mother of Christ is incorrect and can only be used during the 33 years whilst the Lord was clothed with human nature and anything outside of those years is theologically incorrect as the Last Adam does not physically or spiritually have a mother as the first fruit of the resurrection, but as Jesus would say God will be your Father. So the risen Lord is bringing us back to the restored Garden as the New Creation and being resurrected by the Spirit on our last day in the body, which is why Paul would say "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” No one can be present with the Lord in the human nature form and as Paul would say we count that human nature as dead, before we too carry our crosses until the day it is dissolved forever never to be raised as the earthy nature. Jesus even stated "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing." In other words the human nature is good for nothing and will not enter into the Father's House.

[@ss.fx3626]

why not just worship jesus straight up

[@synthesaurus]

Good point. Is it essential for salvation to go to the saints and Mary. In many “orthodox” countries Christ is obscured to the point people feel He is no longer approachable.

[@TheMhouk2]

@@synthesaurus he is not your best friend you play cards with, he is pantocrator, ruler and creator of all the universe.

[@synthesaurus]

@@TheMhouk2 And yet, He comes onto this earth and dwells among us and asks us to come to Him. It is not irreverent to go directly to Christ and ask. But ask with reverence of course.

[@TheMhouk2]

@@synthesaurus my point is that heirarchy does not "obscure" our muddy our relationship with Christ. The reality its never just us and God alone in communion with one another, we're in a relationship with the saints too mediated by his energies. And the saints are cooworkers with God in prayer, in the same way we are co-workers with God on earth now

[@Kapetan_Kanenas]

@@synthesaurus My friend, If you want to judge us (and criticize us) you must first do a honest research on us - which apparently you never did. From what you say, it is obvious that you have no idea what the Orthodox people are taught and believe. For us, Paradise is not a garden with beautiful fruits and flowers but the Deification: to become, after death, One with Christ, One with God. We show respect and ask for the help of Mary and the Saints because they already are One with Christ. They are the perfect examples, the already opened paths to God. So, they never make us forget Christ but, on the contrary, they constantly remind us that we too can become One with Him.

[@fireandworms]

This doesn't really explain the issue of asking for intercession of some kind. It's already questionable to be praising someone other than God, when you could just be praising Him instead. But it's even worse that we don't really have an explanation of *why* it would be important to pray to a saint rather than the Father Himself, like Jesus recommended.

[@partlysimpson5154]

Christ image of God? Christ is God

[@makenoimage]

ummm...it's "make no image...of anything...do not bow and serve"...nothing about worship or veneration...or replacing Him... even bronze serpent He commission was destroyed merely because they burned incense to it...ALL the images He commissioned were destroyed BECAUSE they were abused...and Jews never argued "He had us make images so we can keep doing it"...the irony He also told them to Remember the Sabbath but suddenly "NO NO that's just for da Jews"...lol but yeah...yours need "holy" tradition because it's not in His scripture...because if it were in His scripture it wouldn't be your tradition... Paul didn't teach immortality...so the dead know nothing...but here you add insult to injury by insisting others who are dead help as He ALONE is not enough to mediate for us...

[@josephcarter1480]

Show the verses that it's not in the scripture oh I forgot 7 books of yours were removed so yea

[@gambalombo]

graven image

[@allahpartyinfo652]

The thing is that *not only u clearly deny the 2nd commandment of God given to Moses in which God forbids us to create any Image or sculptures of beings* , but also *u deny the very concept of Shittuf, considering any association of non-Gods to God as a big sin, which is a big principle in Judaism* ! Unfortunately, when the teachings of Jesus, *reached Greece, from Turkey and Jerusalem, it got corrupted through translations and mixing of the words of God with the Greek philosophers, which as made christianity a deviated religion, not even following the 10 commandments of God, given to us by Moses* !

[@oogaleeboogalee6522]

Is this a copypasta? It's very bad and uncited. It also doesn't make an argument it just states an ahistorical position. I was Muslim before I became an Orthodox Christian, and I can say undoubtedly the historical and accusative claims in the Quran about Jesus Christ and Christians are not true. The 2nd commandment is about idolatry, not just images, the 1st commandment makes this clear. There are numerous verses in the Old Testament where icons are made and venerated, and God does not have a problem with it, such as 2 Samuel 6:17, Exodus 40:5, 1 Kings 3:15, Exodus 25:18-20, Exodus 36:35, and numerous other verses. Muhammad and the early Muslims did not know about the difference between veneration and worship because the terms Latria and Dulia don't have satisfactory translations into early Medieval Arabic. Muhammad also didn't know about iconography in the Old Testament, so he assumed the Prophets were completely iconoclastic when in fact they venerated images. What do you think Jesus Christ is to Orthodox Christians, really? We are not adoptionists who believe Jesus Christ was a mere man who became God; that's a condemned heresy. Jesus Christ is the incarnate Son of God. When we say "Son of God" we don't mean a demigod or half-god, we mean God begetting God, Uncreated from Uncreated. This concept of 'Uncreated from Uncreated' is both found in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan creed, which summarizes basic Orthodox Christian beliefs, and in Islam, where the Quran is described as being 'uncreated' yet not Allah. How can something be uncreated and not be God? The idea of pre-existence of matter is found in neoplatonism, which heavily influenced the philosophy and beliefs of early medieval Arabia, where Muhammad lived. I am not saying Muslims believe in the pre-existence of matter, but they have many gaps in their beliefs because Muhammad was overconfident in his attempts to restore the faith of the Prophets that he created a new religion with many unexplainable absences. Christianity was not corrupted when it reached Greece. Did you know Christianity also stayed in Jerusalem, Antioch and other Eastern cities? It didn't move as one to Greece. While gnostics and neoplatonists tried to corrupt Christianity, many _synods_ of Christian bishops were held to discuss doctrine. These synods, or _councils,_ were held as early as after Pentecost in 33 AD by the Apostles and the bishops they ordained, as recorded with the council in Jerusalem in Acts 16. Furthermore, the man modern Muslim sheikhs and apologists condemn, Saint Paul, was actually an enforcer of orthodoxy in early Christianity. He was friends with the other 12 Apostles, especially Peter, and ordained many priests and bishops to serve in Christian dioceses. He wrote letters to these communities correcting them when they erred. Many early Muslim scholars actually considered Paul to be a genuine companion of Jesus, the demonization of him by Muslims is really a modern phenomenon. If you have any questions I will try to answer them soon.

[@allahpartyinfo652]

@@oogaleeboogalee6522 my quotes were not cited? i spoke of the 2nd commandment, and u telling me that its merely about idolatry! i think its better u hear what the Jewish rabbis say on the issue, not what your own heart asks u to theorize bro :) Islam and Judaism are clear on this subject, and its the christians sects (except some protestants) who have done the heresy! regarding the christians residing in jerusalem; i should ask u one thing and finish it; since u have been a muslim and converted to christianity, which shows u r a heretic individual unfortunately! if christians have been in jerusalem from the start; why the christian bible is in Greek(as u c in the video), not in the original language of those reside in jerusalem?! seondly, if jesus was son of God, just becoz he didnt have father; then, what about adam? adam would become God himself in this manner since he didnt have father nor mom!!! Eve too would have become daughter of God! what bout those other personalities being called as sons of God within the bible? u speak of me on the subject matter, its a funny stuff to speak on this issue in this era in which we can reach the 3rd eye dmt lsd world as clear as daylight! the issue of subject matter is for those materialistic philosophers resided in Greece!

[@oogaleeboogalee6522]

@@allahpartyinfo652 ​​⁠​⁠ Judaism in the 21st century is not the same as 2nd Temple Judaism, even Rabbis admit this. So why should I go to a Rabbi, who has no authority in Christianity, for Christian doctrine? Also, Greek was the language of Jerusalem in the 1st century, as Jerusalem was a city in the Eastern Roman Empire which spoke Greek. It appears you do not know what you're talking about. Adam had a creator, and was a mere man. Jesus Christ is God who _assumed_ human nature and is always eternal. This is a really bad point because it displays Muslim ignorance of the incarnation. I recommend you read the Wikipedia article on what Christians believe about Jesus Christ before you go off about Him. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation_(Christianity)

[@allahpartyinfo652]

@@oogaleeboogalee6522 u mean the 10 commandments have been changed? LOL; so if judaism has been changed, why christianity has not? Jesus spoke Aramic and whole the world knows this; His teachings too were aramaic; how a sane brain say Adam had a creater but Jesus had not? Jesus had Mary as mother, But adam didnt have Mother nor Father!!! then u come and tell me Jesus doesnt have a creator? nope bro, if Jesus is God only becoz he didnt have father, then Adam is a bigger God, since he didnt have father nor mother, isnt it? anyhow, Christianity has gained its Dogma of Jesus=God from the Greek philosophers who considered this world as a manifestation of God, the Pantheists! i just dont know how God can go on the Cross, even left dead for days, then getting alive again; how can God eat and sleep? or Jesus didnt eat or sleep? your christianity is exactly similar to those heretic pantheists who consider this world as a manifestation of God, so they think this world is part of God, and God himself! u too think the same, Jesus is part of God, son of God, and God himself at the same time! its christianity that has changed drastically bro, not Judaism; do a bit of research!

[@oogaleeboogalee6522]

⁠@@allahpartyinfo652​​⁠​​⁠ When did I say the 10 commandments changed? Modern Jews generally keep the same commandments as Orthodox Christians though their numbering may be different. Christianity doesn't state because Jesus had no biological father that means He must be God. That's deductive reasoning and a strawman. Did you read the Wikipedia article I sent you? It's very apparent what Orthodox Christianity is teaching: Jesus Christ is not taken as an "associator" with God as Muslims accuse us of, rather, Jesus Christ _IS_ God, eternally begotten of the Father, who is God, and as God became incarnate as the God-man Jesus Christ. Adam had a creator and thus was not God. This is a very terrible polemic you're using because it doesn't even reflect the actual Christian theology on the matter. Adam was not God who assumed a body for Himself, Adam was a man who also sinned and brought corruption into the world, and died because of his sin. Jesus Christ did speak Aramaic, and there actually are Aramaic gospels called the Peshitta. However, Jesus Christ also spoke Greek, especially to non-Jews who would have been speaking Greek as a trade language. The earliest gospel texts are in Greek and the Orthodox Church bases their authority on those gospels as well as Church Tradition through the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ did die on the cross, and enter into the abode of the dead, and then be resurrected, because He had to proclaim the gospel to the dead so that they may be saved. When Jesus Christ died, the essence of God did not die with Him, only the physical body of Jesus Christ. This issue was already dealt with at the 3rd Ecumenical Council at Ephesus, which was about Christology or the Human and Godly natures of Jesus Christ. It was further clarified at the 4th Ecumenical Council at Chalcedon. Jesus Christ again is not 'part' of God nor is He 'associating' with God as Muslims accuse; He is "truly God, truly man" as the Church Fathers teach. Muslims can't seem to grasp the idea that uncreated could be from uncreated even though it's in their very own Quran. Jesus Christ, the Son, is not a phase of God or a mere emanation like pantheists believe, He is God, one of 3 persons in the Trinity (which is not 3 gods, it is 1 God, united in 3 persons, with 1 hypostasis) who assumed a human nature as Jesus Christ.

[@god_iswithinme9868]

But God said not to worship objects, cause they are dead. “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." So, no image of anything even of what is in heaven Jesus said in Bible: I am the only way to my Father. The problem, people not just respect the saints, but they are praying to icons. And the bible calls us, people, also "saints". So, we , christians - are saints. So, we, saints pray to other saint . . . Seriously? Didn't the Father say: I am a jealous God, I will not give the glory to the other. So, our God will give glory to saints? who used to be people? And to worship mother? She was chosen by God, she was blessed. But to kiss her icon and to pray to her and to worship her? But God said: Do Not

[@OrthodoxEthos]

Have you studied Church history? The Seventh Oecumenical Council? The struggle against the iconoclasts and the victory of Orthodoxy again thereafter? Have read the inspired writings of, for example, St. John of Damascus, or St. Theodore the Studite, or St. Germanos of Constantinople, on the Holy Icons and the pious veneration of them? Take some time to come into direct contact with the witness of the saints and confessors of the Faith during this long, extended struggle of the Church of Christ (from about the mid-8th century to the mid-9th century).

[@god_iswithinme9868]

@@OrthodoxEthos everything beyond the knowledge of bible - is fantasy and imaginations of people, that's what the Bible says. John 14:6 Jesus says: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". There are no other mediators, like saints and icons. You cannot pray to Maria to get to God. For Jesus said clearly, He is the ONLY mediator. Those icons are icons of people. God says: I am your God, one and only. (trinity). I am a jealous God. I will not give my GLORY to anyone. God knows the future. That's why in Exodus, Deuteronomy he says: Do not make an image! Do NOT! And he means and for now, and for future. And as a woman baptised with Holy spirit, i believe only in the truth. Have you been baptised with Holy spirit? True christian is the one baptised with water and holy spirit. If you do not have a Holy spirit and you do not hear him, then how can you know the truth? You rely on what people wrote, I rely on what Holy spirit is telling me. There are no scared images, they are idolatry. Jesus Christ, people, wake up. Which spirit is leading you into this sin. Idolaters will ho to Hell if they do not repent.

[@saint-jiub]

@@god_iswithinme9868 Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the LORD until evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads. -Joshua 7:6

[@god_iswithinme9868]

@@saint-jiub Yes, Ark of Lord, not ark of Saint! People did not put an Ark for Moses, and hello, he was God's child, He served God, he was his Prophet. And there is New testament. So, God does not need an ark anymore. When Jesus said many times that He is the mediator, he was not joking, you know. When God named Jesus - our Lord and Saviour tells you: "I am the only way" , "I am the mediator", so it means there is no other, literally, THIS IS FROM WIKIPEDIA: THE ONLY MEANS: and no one or nothing more besides; solely, so no - No saint, No icon. Didn't they wrote chapter Revelation and it is about future? So, 2 thousand years ago they wrote about something that would happen in future, so God saw the future and he wrote the future. Jesus told about THE END to his disciples and when they asked his, Teacher, How to pray, tell us. He said: Our Father in Heaven . . . . . . People, study your Bible and you will not be deceived

[@saint-jiub]

@@god_iswithinme9868 we don't worship obiects. We venerate holy objects, like Joshua and Israel did the Ark.

[@OrthoNepali]

Forgive me for any offence I have done against you both

[@rl_henson]

It 100% is idolatry. I don’t care how you try to spin it with the word salad you guys use.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

You do realize that there was an ecumenical council teaching that veneration of icons is not only blessed but a necessary act of piety for all Christians? And this was embraced in council, not once but many times since. So now you are standing against 2000 years of Christian tradition and witness from the holiest of men and women. . . Who are you again? Avoid such arrogance and pride before God’s holy ones!

[@rl_henson]

Stand against 2,000 years of Christian tradition? Yes, I do. Against God’s unchanging and infallible word? No, sir. I’m just a follower of my Lord.

[@rl_henson]

@Normal Child No, thanks. Jesus did that.

[@therealkingbaldwin]

I love when people call things they can’t comprehend word salads. Everything this priest said was perfectly coherent and logical.

[@rl_henson]

@@therealkingbaldwin Honestly, you’re right. It was perfectly, coherently and logically a false gospel. The Bible clearly teaches justification by faith alone. Forgive my hostile attitude earlier. I just want people to come to the truth and accept Jesus Christ the right way.

[@r.e.jr.1152]

False! Idolatry is the use of graven images of anything in heaven, and earth. It is bowing down to them (Exodus 20). The term "Theotokos" is also false. God does not have a mother. Mary was the mother of the son of God. The Heers guy is twisting scipture.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

According to the third Oecumenical Council you are a heretic condemned with Nestorius, and according to the Seventh Oecumenical Council you are a heretic with the iconoclasts. Are you at all fearful that you are standing condemned by two oecumenical councils and the church for 2000 years?

[@DKjellby]

If Mary was not the Mother of God, then we wouldn’t have a Saviour. Get your facts straight.

[@r.e.jr.1152]

@@DKjellby First of all, God has no mother! He is without beginning and ending, do you believe that? If not, you are deceived!

[@MimiMimi-yj4kl]

But it's still an image my brother. Sometimes people can't have an intimacy with God without any looking to the so called icons right? Jesus Christ said worship in spirit and truth.

[@rl_henson]

Matthew 15:8 seems appropriate. “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.” Repent and believe the gospel. Ask Christ to forgive and save you once and for all and trust nothing else. Salvation comes by no other means. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9.

[@LazyLAG]

semantics is all nice but ill not stick when this man have to wanser why you did what i tell not to do?

[@ulathomas37]

And yet, it appears, that the greater veneration is directed towards Θεοτόκος and not Jesus Himself. Jesus is God in nature and taught us God’s Truths for our own salvation. The Church has to restore the balance and redirect our attention to those teachings and not to the person of Mary -with all respect-.

[@OrthodoxEthos]

On what basis, what experience, do you make that judgement?

[@evans3922]

You probably confuse Orthodoxy with the Papism.. In Orthodoxy we venerate Most Holy Virgin Mary above all angels and saints but not above Christ... We worship Jesus Christ as The Son of God together with His Father and the Holy Spirit

[@ivygarcia9525]

In one of the 10 commandments God says, "honor your father and mother." When the Lord Jesus walked on the earth He kept the commandments perfectly. Even while hanging and dying on the Cross He had His Mother in mind! He left her His disciple and dearest friend, John, as a son to her, to love and care for her. The Most Pure Mother of God is the One Who holds the keys to Paradise! We better make sure we love, honor and venerate Her if we ever hope to enter Paradise and be with Christ!

[@AlexT-sy6nm]

Please read St John Maximovitch's "The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God", it will solve all your misunderstandings. It's a great little book, just 87 pages, but with deep theological lessons. Due to its size, it's very digestible and a lovely read - it's the first book I gave to my [formerly] Catholic girlfriend a couple of years ago, who has since been baptized in the Greek Orthodox Church (just last weekend, Glory be to God!) To summarize: We worship only the One Coessential Life-Giving Uncreated Holy Trinity - worship is for God alone. But we can also venerate (not worship) His best examples of creation - the Holy Theotokos with all the saints and heavenly powers. So we venerate the saints as images AND likenesses of Christ the Son and Word of God, as shining examples of lived experience of partaking in Christ (because we all retain the image of God after the fall, but we've lost the likeness. We can strive toward it through great personal efforts and only by the grace found in the Church through her sacraments, since the Incarnation and Resurrection. That's what the Saints accomplished - regaining the likeness of God through their efforts and of course by the grace of God supporting them throughout their labors). And we venerate the mother of God above all CREATED beings ( but we do not worship her as we do God nor put her above Him, who is the Uncreated Creator). We VENERATE her as the best of creation, above even the seraphim and cherubim, as the Saint of saints, as the ONLY CREATED BEING that contained the infinity of the divine essence within her, as the one person in the entire history of existence that above and beyond everyone else, labored and collaborated with God and was key to the Incarnation and salvation of man, in birthing the Messiah. To put it plainly: It's her that's our last hope in entreating to God - if her prayers and supplications can't change His mind on any given issue, nobody else can. Glory be to God for all things

[@synthesaurus]

@@AlexT-sy6nm That’s what’s written by a theologian, in reality MOST orthodox christians are completely preoccupied with the ikons of the saints and Mary. The fact the main ikon depicts Mary with baby Jesus should trigger an alarm. If you were just to read all the four gospels you’d never even imagine to pray to anyone but the Lord.

[@microcosm1957]

Lol, use whatever false definitions you want, but the Bible just prohibits images and devotion to images. Almost every polytheistic pantheon believes that idols are manifesting some of God’s attributes and that devotion to these idols brings one closer to the Ultimate God. The orthodox explanation isn’t anything new or unique

[@spottedhorse7]

Veneration is worship. It’s amazing the lengths humans will go to disobey a plain command of God for what they want to do. I get it because I see the lure of the trappings in orthodox churches. However to obey is better than to be comforted by traditions of men

[@mangispangi]

But he didn't instruct us to pray to our mother and father.

[@barbaramazzocca4605]

No, veneration is not worship, because veneration is showing respect and reverence to someone who is NOT a deity. I'm sure you have had that for some human like maybe your grandparent. You venerated your grandparent, but didn't worship them as your Lord and Savior.

[@alabamamotionpictureproduc6626]

​@@mangispangibut He wanted us to pray for each other right? So what's different about asking St. Nicholas of Myra to pray for my safe travels?

[@reubentobias2512]

God has no mother so blasphemous

[@pokebe380]

mary?

[@carsonbaird3904]

@@pokebe380 Apparently Jesus wasnt God according to the commenters logic

[@grey.knight]

Lies and hypocrisy.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

From iconoclasts

[@joelandrew9688]

​@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας yes the gray knight shall defend us, put him on the TV, honor him with a tiker tape parade

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@joelandrew9688 well saints are glorified in God s uncreated majestic Glory, that makes them have knowledge of all a human can possible have see for example rev ch 5 the experience john has

[@ss.fx3626]

then i guess murder isnt murder

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

You miss that Jesus Christ is not only the Word Λόγος of God but also the Ιcon Εικών οf God.

[@nitrianskehosamospravnehok4397]

With that logic Self defense is murder too.

[@OrthoNepali]

May the two speakers here forgive me for any offense I have done against them

[@OrthoNepali]

May the two speakers here forgive me for any offense I have done against them