Why The Stormcloaks Will (Almost) Always Fail

[@James--Parker]

Something I've noticed while playing Skyrim. Is you'll meet basically no NPCs who have family members currently in the legion or are civil war vetterans themselves. Angeline Morrard daughter died fighting for the Legion. And We meet Hadvar's family. But that is litterally it. Sure we meet plenty of great war veterans who fought for the empire but civil war vveterans? Not a single one. But you'll find people who know people currently or formally serving in the Stormcloaks all over the place. 1: Fralia's Gray-Mane two sons both join the Cloaks 2: Markarth's silver smith son ran off to join the Cloaks 3: Bolund and Solaf are former Cloaks 4: Gilfre complains about all of her workers running off to join the Cloaks 5: Windhelm's beggar is a former Stormcloak 6: Gerdur's brother serves in the Stormcloaks 7: One member of the Snow-Shod family (a noble family in Riften) was killed serving as a healer for the Cloaks The empire has a recuiting problem in Skyrim. How well they do in the civil war depends entirely on how many soldiers they're willing to send up from Cyrodiil.

[@atmosquake3090]

The Empire does have Nords serving in its ranks, Tullius’ Legate is clear about that. And the Empire has to understand the territory in order to pull off their ambushes. Don’t forget, supporting the Empire would be the neutral position since Skyrim has been a part of it for hundreds of years.

[@nstar674]

I feel a lot of people undersell Skyrim's defensive position. An independent Skyrim is practically impossible to invade, even moreso if the invasion is coming from the Aldmeri Dominion. The only way into Skyrim by land is through narrow mountain passes, which means a token defense force can stop much larger armies from entering. The empire would be hard pressed to get back in, and the dominion would need to invade another province just to reach it. Then by sea, well, the dominion would need to sail through imperial waters, and hammerfell controlled waters which isn't going to fly. Or if they go the other way which takes even longer Argonian pirates are likely to attack them, and I don't think the dunmer would take kindly to dominion ships in their waters either. As for the empire, the only ships they could for sure use to invade Skyrim after getting kicked out are any in High Rock, as they run into similar problems of moving troops too close to Summerset via ship travel from cyrodil, or possible argonian pirates in Black Marsh. So it all becomes a point of just not being worth invading. TLDR, world tensions make sea invasions untenable, and the mountain passes can be defended by smaller forces.

[@gavros9636]

And this is ignoring that naval landings generally require five attackers for every one defender making it just as hard as the mountain passes if not worse especially as that is just the numbers needed to establish a beachhead, good luck supplying the landing forces when Ulfric will give the Dawnstar and Solitude merchant fleets free reign to plunder and raid Thalmor shipping.

[@JurzGarz]

I disagree. Skyrim is very defensible, but if the rest of Tamriel were to fall to the Aldmeri Dominion, Skyrim would eventually be swallowed up as well. The Thalmor are pretty clear that they see the subjugation of the entire continent as their birthright, and Skyrim alone would be hard pressed to hold out against an empire spanning the rest of Tamriel.

[@jospehstalin6379]

I mean yeah, but Skyrim really isn't the prize in the Dominions eyes. They'd go for the easier target of conquering an already incredibly weakened Cyrodil, cementing their position then moving onward to Hammerfell, which they could now more easily invade through their land control of Cyrodil and through their navy, a two pronged attack like they did in the Great War but this time they'd have actual control over Cyrodil. Skyrim is really hard to invade, and theyd likely not go for it immediately, and instead try to destabilize it while they control Cyrodil. I think that's why I'm sold on the Empire as a choice, because the Empire acts as a fire break that contains the Dominion from the rest of Tamriel

[@nstar674]

You guys are assuming the dominion would be able to conquer anything else in the first place. Hammerfell already fought them and won, Cyrodil has its defenses on high alert, the only reason they aren't crushing Skyrim as is would be because all their forces are prepared for a dominion invasion at any time in Cyrodil. And we know that Skyrim at the very least would help out the empire against the dominion, because the stormcloaks are itching for a chance to fight the elves, to the point that Ulfric's top general is talking about invading the dominion. Overall who leads Skyrim will have 0 effect on the next great war. Because all the human nations whether independent or not are either on the front lines or want to fight the elves.

[@ziephel-6780]

The Aldmeri Dominion neither wants the Empire or the Stormcloaks to win, they just want to put them in perpetual war, weakening both, a united Empire is pretty bad for them, but the Empire had to sign the treaty before, so the Empire was already weakened by then.

[@absollum]

The Stormcloaks can barely stalemate the Empire who are only using local recruits and one General. They also somehow got ambushed in Deep Folk Crossing, which is deep in their own territory, resulting in Ulfric getting captured and nearly executed. That screams military incompetence, something an independent Skyrim can't afford.

[@lolasdm6959]

Stormclocks may be incompetent as a formal military, but fighting a prolonged insurgency as long as Ulfric is alive won't do the Imperials any better.

[@Kai-vq3gf]

Being surprised by an attack of a enemy in your own territory is incompetence? Ulfric was moving to probably meet one of his allies and was surprised by being outnumbered by imperials, Tulius caught him by surprise, it happens, especially when Ulfric doesn't have as much experience leading a war.

[@gg_sam7847]

Didn't the video say they were betrayed by another Jarl? The betrayal being setting up the ambush

[@absollum]

@@Kai-vq3gf if it were near the border of any Imperial controlled hold, I would be able to ignore it, but it's pretty deep into Eastmarch, the hold Ulfric rules. The Imperials also had to go through the mountain pass connecting Falkreath and the Rift and not get seen by any Stormcloak forces as to not raise an alarm. Also, Ulfric not being ready to fight a war he probably should have known was coming after the duel is an even better reason not to side with him.

[@Kai-vq3gf]

@@absollum Tulius had just arrived in Skyrim, he's a very skilled and experienced warrior in ambushes, he moved with his soldiers and surrounded Ulfric. It's not that Ulfric is completely useless and doesn't know how to command, he does, the problem is that he was surprised by someone with decades of experience above him.

[@trannigan3349]

Ulfric got captured once in Falkreath before the war started, and he was captured again at the beginning of the game. I can't see any reality where Ulfric wins without the Dragonborn's help.

[@steveng6721]

Yeah, he's incompetent.

[@krasmazov8]

He was also ambushed and captured in his own hold by a foreign force led by a foreign general who had just entered the province, so yeah, very incompetent.

[@arradon2825]

That is false, he wasn't captured in Falkreath. There is no info on that. Maybe you were thinking about when he was arrested in Markarth after he liberated it. That was 25 years before the events of Skyrim.

[@garrettlaturski6703]

One of the reasons I like the civil war is because it's not good vs evil, but if I were to use D&D terminology, it's Lawful vs Chaotic. Both sides do unsavory things, but also seek to do what they see as good. That's why people still argue about it over a decade later.

[@steveng6721]

Isnt ulfric super into ethnic cleansing? I feel like that settles it clearly lol.

[@Klitchie]

Do I remember right that Talos was a genocidal man who conspired to abort his own child to avoid political scandal?

[@garrettlaturski6703]

@Klitchie Not Genocidal. He waged wars to expand his power and get better resources for his people. At worst, Tiber Septum was a lying, scheming man who sought to rule the continent and didn't want any bastard children to mess with the line of succession.

[@garrettlaturski6703]

@Klitchie While Talos did things that I don't condone, I wouldn't say he was necessarily evil, mostly just pragmatic. Of course, like a lot of things in The Elder Scrolls, we don't know everything that happened. We mostly have books that have some sort of bias in them. We can't know how much of them is the truth, nor how much is false.

[@acridcesium_9971]

Despite all the reasons why they shouldn't win the Civil War, odds are that the Stormcloaks are going to be the "canon" winners in TES6 because everything in Skyrim feels like setup for the Empire collapsing. With the Dark Brotherhood questline ending the way it does and the cyclical nature of the universe. (Paarthurnax himself says "Some would say that all things must end, so that the next can come to pass. Perhaps this world is simply the Egg of the next kalpa?") TES has a thing for events rhyming in smaller and larger scales, so the attempted ending of the current Kalpa with Alduin would be reflected down with the end of the current empire. TES Legends revealing the first Titus Mede as a fraud, as well as the dynasty in general not having a clear divine mandate or prophetic coming like the other three imperial dynasties. TES also operates on something sorta similar to a great man theory but not exactly? Basically because Ulfric is a more impressive person than either Elisif, or even the Mede dynasty as a whole, there's sort of an imperative for him to win regardless of what real world logic would dictate. Back to the monomyth thing, Ulfric pretty cleanly matches Lorkhan/Padomay as a chaotic force opposing the orderly Empire mirroring Akatosh(symbol of the empire)/Anu, the general trend is that the Padomaic force wins initially, but eventually is punished or cast down by an Anuic one (Lorkhan getting his heart removed, Oblivion Crisis being stopped, Ancient Nords sending Alduin forwards in time). All of this considered, the most likely outcome is for the Stormcloaks to win, maybe try and form a second Ebonheart pact against the Dominion or a human supremacist mirror to them alongside Hammerfell and some random warlords in the likely shattered empire. But then either failing to fight off the Dominion or being taken over by a God-King type figure who likely turns it into another Empire

[@atmosquake3090]

Or the fact that canonically the Dragonborn is probably a Nord and probably would side with the Stormcloaks would mean they win

[@ijtzoi7640]

Elder Scrolls games prefer to leave things ambiguous as to the events of the previous games, and only one jarl survives in both endings. If we hear that Ulfric is alive, then Bethesda has invalidated half of previous playthroughs, and if we hear that Elisif is alive, either one can have happened. That seems deliberate to me. I'm guessing Elisif will be high queen, and probably that'll mean that we hear about how the legion proper eventually made it through the once-snowed-over passes, allowing for the player to have sided with either side canonically, just that if they joined the stormcloaks, eventually it was undone by the rest of the legion. Also to the reply, "canonically the Dragonborn is probably a Nord", absolutely nothing suggests this, and it goes against Bethesda's entire philosophy of letting the protagonists have been anything. Besides, nords are signing up to the legion in just as much numbers as the stormcloaks.

[@atmosquake3090]

@ promotional material and old canon tying the Thume to Nords doesn’t count? I don’t know if the legion could beat the Dragonborn but that’s mostly because the limitations of the game and the power a player can achieve. In the canon, things can go any way the writers wish. Don’t really disagree, just curious about the specifics of the Thume, and how strong the DB should be. Wasn’t the first emperor Dragonborn or something

[@ijtzoi7640]

@@atmosquake3090 Promotional material doesn't really count, no. Consider the Nerevarine; the box art depicts a dunmer man, and in Skyrim, Master Neloth refers to the Nerevarine with male pronouns, and this is something the person who wrote that dialogue says was a mistake made in haste that should be counted as a glitch, not as canon. They really don't want to establish things like that, but they have to put SOMETHING on the poster.

[@acridcesium_9971]

@ijtzoi7640 Generally, TES operates on an "everything is true, but nothing is correct" basis for player actions and conflicting accounts. Sheogorath in Skyrim referencing the Oblivion Dark Brotherhood is really the closest exception, but every other case follows that. Daggerfall has every ending happen, the Morrowind Player is and isn't Nerevar reincarnated at the same time. Practically this means that every quest questline is done, but not always by the same person, so the Dragonborn could be sectioned off to just the main quest while each of the guilds + Civil War all have their own protagonist, which also opens up the option of the Season Unending truce lasting long enough that the war stalls out and Imperial reinforcements show up, or some diplomatic solution wins out where Skyrim becomes an Imperial client state but mostly independent anyway.

[@rockowlgamer631]

My first ever playthrough WAS with the Stormcloaks mostly because I liked the rank names they gave me such as Bonebreaker, IceHammer, Stormblade, and so on.

[@JurzGarz]

On the topic of how TES VI will reference Skyrim: The TES games are always written in a way that allows all (or nearly all) possible choices in previous games to be potentially canon. This is done by offering explicitly conflicting accounts (such as Vivec’s ultimate fate), or by having a cataclysmic event render the outcome a moot point (such as the Dragonbreak after Daggerfall). One thing Bethesda rarely does, however, is pick a single “canon outcome” for any player choice. So, we can assume that whether Skyrim is referenced as being independent or part of the Empire in TES VI, the outcome of the civil war will be described vaguely enough that player choice is respected. For example: if Skyrim is independent, this could be described as “eventually the Empire gave up on holding Skyrim”. This could mean the Stormcloaks drove out the Empire with the player’s help, or it could mean the Stormcloaks were defeated but that the Empire had to eventually pull out of Skyrim for some other reason. Likewise, if Skyrim is part of the Empire, that could mean that the player helped them, or that an Imperial counterattack eventually retook the province even if the player didn’t side with them. Point is, there’s precedent for Bethesda writing the lore in such a way as to be flexible with regards to player choice.

[@jimclayson]

While I absolutely ADORE Ulfric, and I have the utmost respect for the man's motives, he picked the wrong fight for the right reasons. His methods have divided Skyrim unnecessarily, which has lead to a waste of resources and lives, a situation which the Aldmeri Dominion has shown itself more than happy to help perpetuate. Skyrim DESERVES independence from the Empire, but Ulfric is leading his people to a mass suicide. I think Sybille Stentor's speculation that Torygg might've listened, had Ulfric asked him to secede from the Empire, is likely spot-on... but Ulfric chose a different path... and now the die is cast, and Ulfric has to be stopped. Ending Ulfric by my own hand always makes me just a little bit sad, but at least I know he ends up in Sovngarde...

[@yep1486]

agreed he is a broken man, desperate for change against his downbringings from the empire and the hands of the thalmor, but his path is self destructive for both him and skyrim so when I do civil war, I like to imagen Ulfric dies knowing what is the nordic messiah intending to fight and bring change, as he enter sovengarde with regret for what he has done, but also hope that skyrim will prosper

[@sirsteam6455]

Unless Skyrim supports the empire in any case they would fall, their independence would only weaken any resistance against the Thalmor given they'd more anxious to fully commit and exploit openings.

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@sirsteam6455 How? It’s not as if the Aldmeri Dominion can conquer Tamriel.

[@MrRAGE-md5rj]

@@teyrncousland7152 THey brought SKyrim to it's knees in the first war, forcing a peace treaty. And they'll DEFINITELY be trying again in the future.

[@tyler71717]

Nazeem can personally feed all of Skyrim with the freshest and highest quality produce harvested at his world renouned Chillfurrow Farm. These Cyrodilian farmers clearly haven't been to the cloud district.

[@ultima1033]

Me: *Hears Whiterum* My brain: 🎵 IT MUST HAVE BEEN SIMPLY MY IMAGINATION! 🎵

[@Frenzied_flame_enjoyer]

🎵IT MUST HAVE BEEN THE WIND🎵

[@creativename7230]

theres also apparently a note you can find at fort neugrad where the stormcloaks try everything to keep pale pass closed to make sure the empire doesnt send more forces to skyrim, also ulfric will hesitate to attack solitude if vittoria vicis wedding happens or the "emperor" visits while you do the dark brotherhood, saying he cannot afford an all out war with the empire. Also if you notice, almost every city has a better jarl under imperial rule, the only exception would be falkreath (riften doesnt change whether maven is jarl or not, she and the citizens say so, she already runs the city no matter what)

[@twinzzlers]

Tbh Falkreath gets even worse if the Stormcloaks win since their jarl is a paranoid old fart

[@creativename7230]

@twinzzlers well it's still better than the corrupt spoiled brat who let bandits attack his people, plus Dengeir at least cares for his people

[@twinzzlers]

@creativename7230 Barely, arguably maybe. I hate both of them. Best to install Conquest of Skyrim and replace him with that one nice guy who's brother is a Stormcloak

[@WarHawk81A2]

"Khajit are the best elves." That line had me rolling!!! LOL!!!!

[@a_n1441]

People who assume the Thalmor will just easily overrun Skyrim if Ulfric wins are missing the context of the Aldmeri near-victory in Cyrodiil. The Dominion didn’t send their main force to Cyrodiil, but to Hammerfell; They needed to ensure naval superiority and secure the south-facing coast. There was no way to win without doing this. Only after Cyrodiil proved much weaker than expected did they redirect to go for a full-scale conquest. There is no way for the Dominion to get a significant force to Skyrim without going through Hammerfell (which they’ve already proven incapable of after five years) or retaking Cyrodiil. The Dominion is already in bad shape militarily speaking (which people seem to usually ignore for some reason), and an independent Skyrim will still be able to supply troops and resources to Hammerfell or Cyrodiil in the case of another Aldmeri invasion. Do I think Ulfric is the better choice? No, he’s a racist moron who served as an asset (willing or unwilling, it’s unclear) for the Thalmor even before his rebellion. He probably wouldn’t make all of the tactical decisions required to actually support the Empire and Hammerfell if it came down to it. There is no reason beyond ethnonationalism and desire for religious freedom to split Skyrim off of the Empire; the Nords won’t be better off without direct allies. But a Stormcloak victory is not an immediate Thalmor win.

[@JurzGarz]

What’s your evidence that the Dominion is in bad shape militarily? Yes, they failed to conquer Hammerfell, but that was after their forces had already been exhausted by the Great War. Since then, they’ve had decades to rebuild their strength.

[@a_n1441]

@ Both sides have had decades to rebuild. The Dominion’s lands are untouched, but their birthrate is much slower and their main army was completely destroyed-even the Imperial army wasn’t destroyed like that, and they had their capital taken. The Dominion also lost the Orb of Vaermina, their main source of scouting and intelligence (albeit Legends is a contentious source). I’m sure they’ve gotten stronger since the Great War, but it’s kind of hard to speculate how much they’ve been able to recover. All we can really go off of is what we know: The Empire is basically on its last legs, more fractured than ever, and the Dominion still doesn’t feel confident in invading yet.

[@BrennenKleckner-fk5vl]

@a_n1441 I should mention this now, their is no lore that says the High Elves Breed Slower, also the Wood Elves are stated to regularly have family’s in the 10s and the Khajiit Exist. Really the High Elves main issue is the fact they I’ll children that aren’t “pure”.

[@BrennenKleckner-fk5vl]

Kill, it won’t let me edit so replace that I’ll

[@mk_gamíng0609]

The Empire are ACTUAL thalmor puppets under the Empire Skyrim win only suffer The Empire needs to fall so it can free itself from its chains and then it can rebuild

[@loftwingheropon2743]

Hearthguy says how he always sides with the Stormcloaks, Me who sides with the imperials 9 times out of 10 (Nervously sweating). Its mainly the Nord racism that gets me to not side with them, i mean I dont think ulfric is racist but he certainly doesn't stop the argonias or dark elves from being bullied in windhelm, though if you've played morrowind you may think the dark elves desevre it after all the hell they give you in that game.

[@TamaMochi678]

Imagine not siding with the Stormcloaks because "muh racism" so you side with the Thalmor puppets instead. The Thalmor. The elves that want to exterminate all non-elves. Top smart!

[@loftwingheropon2743]

@TamaMochi678 honestly these days it depends more on what character I'm playing. So it's more roleplay based nowadays.

[@emperortenebrisemeraldwing8578]

@@TamaMochi678 a Stormcloak calling the imperials Thalmor puppets Is rich, Ulfric is literally a Thalmor asset, though I doubt he's aware of that

[@olivercharles2930]

@@TamaMochi678 I suggest reading the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric. Hint: Ulfric is a thalmor puppet.

[@Scowleasy]

If ulfric can’t even fix his own city then he can’t fix skyrim

[@tyler71717]

This was by far the most logical take I've seen on YT regarding this topic, well done and I look forward to watching more of your content.

[@stevenchoza6391]

Me, who always sides with them because the Imperial unjustly tried to kill me: They fail?

[@lolasdm6959]

No side is purely good lol

[@lolasdm6959]

@@stevenchoza6391 If I ever join the Imperials in one playthrough, I have to play as a redguard or a imperial, if any other race, I would only join them after the embassy mission

[@olivercharles2930]

We just gonna ignore Hadvar, the imperial who not only voices concern about your imminent execution but also helps you after Alduin crashes the party?

[@stevenchoza6391]

@@olivercharles2930 No… but I imagine the Imperial Captain’s actions might be more likely to stick with the Last Dragonborn, especially when Ralof and the other Stormcloaks do so as well.

[@stevenchoza6391]

@@lolasdm6959 I’m aware. I was making a joke over how the title kind of goes against my play style. Plus, considering the actions of the Imperial in the opening of the game, it makes sense that the Last Dragonborn would side with the side that didn’t try to wrongly execute you.

[@olivercharles2930]

Even if they win it will be Pyrrhic victory at best

[@some_shitposting_idiot3023]

Not even that It'll be such a horrible victory people will actively be against anything war related for decades until the province replenishes it's population and even then will be hesitant for war

[@Hell_O7]

Fun stuff, thanks for the video

[@raziberry1595]

Either way, theyll mess it up in ES6,its a bad idea to make a quest that has such huge lore implications with a choice if who to side with because now you have to choose a canon end to the quest which many players will have chosen the opposite side

[@JurzGarz]

Not necessarily. Previous games already solved this by having some sort of cataclysmic event occur that makes the choice basically irrelevant.

[@ThomFoolery12]

Tbh a fragile truce is probably the canon ending. I imagine we’ll be told in ES6 that “the Dragonborn brought a tenuous peace to Skyrim,” something which could apply to all endings but suggests the truce.

[@nautilusguts]

I dunno, I feel like a Stormcloak victory would probably inspire the other countries in the Empire who don't like the Thalmor to finally kick them out and go to war. Hammerfell already accomplished it during the war, and the Bretons would likely unite under their hatred for the Thalmor rather than descending into civil war themselves. This would put a massive amount of pressure on the Imperials to break the treaty first because the longer the treaty stands the more time the Thalmor have to build their forces (as they already are confirmed to be doing during Skyrim) in order to break it on their own and sweep the Empire completely.

[@lolasdm6959]

Its because the Imperials made the myth that Talos was a nord, this is why Talos worship is so important specifically to the nords.

[@a_n1441]

@@lolasdm6959Talos worship is important to the Nords because Talos took Lorkhan’s place as the ninth god; The missing god was historically the most important deity for the Nords, and was even represented in the earlier Atmoran pantheon. Talos, to some degree, is Lorkhan. That’s why he’s important, not because everyone thinks Hjalti/Tiber was a Nord in life.

[@franklinllanes770]

Haven't watched a video in a while because they were for games I hadn't yet played, but I'm excited to listen to this video on a long late night train ride.

[@emperortenebrisemeraldwing8578]

A world where the Stormcloaks win is one where Mankind gets wrecked. A stormcloak victory in Skyrim cuts the remaining Imperial provinces in half, separating High-Rock from Cyrodil all but guarantees its collapse into a hundred feuding Breton lords, And practically giftwrapping Cyrodil for the Aldmeri. Skyrim may hold out for a while, especially if the Dragonborn becomes high king, and the desert gives Hammerfell a shield, but this would be a massive Elven W

[@Scowleasy]

Lol for real how does cutting skyrim off from the empire’s trade ever help it? Like the thalmor literally say the civil war helps their goal of weakening the empire

[@some_shitposting_idiot3023]

Ulfric wouldn't let the dragonborn be anything but a foot soldier and immediately cause a second civil war

[@lolasdm6959]

Look Empire is blessed by Akintosh, the god of time, literal plot armor, also the Aldmeri dominion isn't exactly a solid slab either.

[@emperortenebrisemeraldwing8578]

@@lolasdm6959 beyond the fact that the Aldmeri also worship Akatosh (under a different name but still explicitly the same guy), all that plot armor couldn't even save their capital during the first war between empire and dominion, the empire was very nearly destroyed and that was back before Hammerfell, Morrowind and Black Marsh left it. It's even weaker now

[@Kai-vq3gf]

​@@Scowleasythe Thalmor said a continued civil war would be good to drain resources from the empire. The end of the civil war with the Stormcloacks winning breaks the Thalmor control and influence over Skyrim directly, since they wouldn't be allowed to operate there anymore.

[@pacosalvs13]

Something I always loved about Skyrim, is that a decade later we can still talk about the Civil War and both sides can bring good points even though I think the empire is the best choice

[@qwefg3]

I agree with a lot of these points as while the Storm Cloaks make a lot of good points and have a lot of good reasons... They are also the poster child for 'doing the wrong thing for the right reasons'. Especially with how it is incredibly hard to see a Storm Cloak nation even if they win. They are being held up by a single flawed man who even if they theoretically win the war... Probably can't keep their new nation going. Especially if an assassin strike would kill the man when Dragon Born vanishes. The Storm Cloaks are doomed to fail even if they win.

[@sirsteam6455]

Not to mention the main cause for the War itself is Talos worship, which in and of itself is a moot reason to go to war for. The Imperials are only keeping up faces as to prepare for another war, keep in mind Talos is their god not the Nords, who claim to be traditional but have almost completely abandoned their own patheon or have allowed them to be imperialized. Realistically Skyrim does not gain much if anything by succeeding, they had relative political autonomy under the Empire, were connected to the various trade routes and supported by the Legions, if they succeed they lose all of these in some form and political isolate themselves especially given the ambitious Altmer. Wrong time and place for a revolution.

[@cherrytree3400]

you're the reason i started playing triangle strategy, thanks for that

[@st.anselmsfire3547]

Elesif is probably Bethesda's "have your cake and eat it too" plan for TES VI. No matter who wins, she's still in Solitude, and everyone seems to love her. She will likely become the High Queen, and, even in a Stormcloak victory, will end up allied to the Empire, and then probably rejoining it.

[@704pat]

Dude, only 4k subs? Blasphemy. Absolute loved this video.

[@TheOneWhoShushes]

yep, they’re lucky dragon Jesus came to help em

[@Flapalapagus]

I’m still disappointed that there wasn’t an option to claim the throne yourself. The world is literally turning to hell as dragons climb out of their graves to terrorise the land and yet both sides just sit around with their dick in their hands getting in the way to the point you need to tell them to stop this bull so that Balgruf will let you save the goddamn world. Both sides basically react to the dragons with “oh yeah that was a thing, but let’s focus on this minor squabble instead. I’m sure it’s more important” Given your position as Dragonborn you have greater claim to the throne than anyone considering the empire was founded by a Dragonborn and the other side worships a Dragonborn turned god. Dragons terrorise the skies, the greybeards have announced your arrival and the original Imperial guard (the blades) have sought you out. There is more than enough there to make a solid claim for others to stand behind. Also the current emperors bloodline is so pathetic that he literally gave up on life when he learned the brotherhood had a hit placed on him. Just saying I’d rather follow the one who can single-handedly take down dragons into a war with the dominion than either leader.

[@LoneSilverW0lf]

Small issue with your claim but not a huge one: I don’t think Titus Mede necessarily ‘gave up’ when the DB came after him, there’s plenty of reason to believe that he ordered the hit himself. Saw a video a while back, can’t tell what who made it, but it laid out this theory pretty clearly and I’ll do my best to reiterate it here. The Imperial Pendant, the mass sum of gold, how Titus asked the DB to ‘tie up loose ends’, all points that this was a setup. Titus could’ve stepped down and let his son take over, but there would’ve been the ever present worry that he’d be speaking into the next Emperors ear and thus lowering the masses opinions of the new Emperor. Using the Brotherhood to eliminate Titus gives the impression that Titus was still seen as dangerous enough to some(the Thalmor) to warrant the Brotherhood after him, and by extension his son as well. It was a whole political/mind game to give the Empire some new fire. Like I said, just a theory but I like how it explains quite a few things.

[@Hell_O7]

From what I get, the Blades seems to only see the dragonborn as a tool rather than actually serving

[@comentnine1574]

Say Hearthguy have you read the Ember War book series by Richard Fox or its sequel series? If so do you plan on doing a video series on it?

[@TheHearthGuy]

I haven't, never heard of it before now.

[@comentnine1574]

@@TheHearthGuy I’d recommend it on Audible the narrator Luke Daniels does an excellent job of bringing the story to life and the writing itself had me interested if not in the plot then in the setting it created which was described by one person as “Battlestar Galactica meets Mass Effect” or by another as “If Tom Clancy wrote about Space navies” I know you probably have a lot of other videos planned but I do hope you find the time to have a listen at the first book of the universe that Fox created.

[@kingjamization]

My thing always was if the Thalmor were sending the Stormcloaks weapons and resources how come it's so rare to see them with anything but Steel weapons and low tier light armor? That and the fact that the Empire has better trained swordsmen, better armor in some cases, better archers, and use battle mages? Id see more of an argument if Eourland Gray Mane had been selling spare weapons and armor to the Stormcloaks

[@damackabet.4611]

better trained? the empire isn't better trained. It was Nord legions that fought at the battle of red ring. The Nords have the same training as imperials. While I doubt they provide much in the way of battle mages these days what with magic not being their main focus, they almost certainly have the best swordsmen, and some good archers. Only reason it might seem the empire is better trained is much of skyrims army is militias at moment, with many nord legions either in cyrodiil likely to keep watch in case of thalmor invasion, or rebelled and joined skyrim in the civil war. Almost all troops you see in skyrim though are either part of a single legion that was there that im pretty sure split on which side to take, or are local recruits, or hold troops of each individual hold. As for thalmor unlikely their sending many weapons and resources at all, remember they dont want a skyrim win. They can't actually beat skyrim, have you looked at a map? sailing to attack it be impossible, not to mention they have to pass by hostile hammerfell and highrock. If the thalmor do send any weapons/resources it almost certainly happens under some front such as a wealthy Nord profiteering from the war, who they pay to give cheap weapons/armor to skyrim.

[@Rigel443]

A stormcloak victory just hands the thalmor a victory.

[@redwind5150]

No it doesn't, the thalmor want the nord tied down for the next part of the storm. An independent skyrim means another army to deal with.

[@JurzGarz]

Skyrim and Cyrodiil are going to be weaker individually than together, it’s just basic logic. Even if an independent Skyrim and Cyrodiil did ally to fight the Thalmor, they would still be weaker than if they were a unified state. There would be diplomatic tensions between the two armies, the disruption of trade would hurt the economy, and resources would be dispersed rather than concentrated.

[@damackabet.4611]

@@JurzGarz You ignore the morale changes, the fact half of skyrim hates the empire enough to rather have all of humanity die than be under their tyranny. Let's have a reminder, it was nords who won the battle of red ring, and imperials who surrendered it. The great war was going to be a victory if you ask me, before that coward emperor surrendered. Had to bribe skyrim to stay loyal, and hammerfell flat out told the emperor to go *uck himself and left taking legions loyal to hammerfell(due to being recruited from there), and kicked the thalmor's as* themselves. yes I know some words aren't full, youtube cen sor ship. The empire is so weak their enforcing a 30 year old treaty that lets the thalmor enter their own borders and murder their citizens. That is no empire capable of stopping the thalmor, it is a coward picking on those weaker than themselves too fearful to fight against the elves, but wanting to rule others who dare to rule themselves.

[@JurzGarz]

@@damackabet.4611 If the Empire is weaker than the Thalmor, how the hell is an even smaller kingdom going to be stronger than them? Your post is so strange because it reads like nationalist carrying on for a fictional country.

[@sirsteam6455]

@@redwind5150 That's not how armies work, not only would an Independent Skyrim mean a weaker and less organized or trained force, it also means less army cohesion between any collation forces unlike if those same nords were just recruited into the LEGIONS as they had been for centuries. Furthermore and due to their sovereignty it would mean Skyrim would not commit to any assault until the Thalmor were already at THEIR gates and had defeated everyone else.

[@atmosquake3090]

Okay, I’ll try to summarize my points. 1. Point to the SCs the DB is probably a Nord and after their almost execution, may side with the SCs. 2. This conflict is roughly analogous to the Samnite wars. Point to the Empire, more population and people who know how to fight an insurgency. 3. This region has been a loyalist province for hundreds of years, and clearly a lot of people support the Empire by default. Economic ties and intermarriage and immigration give them spies everywhere. SCs only trust Nords, point to Empire. 4. If the Nords were of older canon and a large percentage had the Thume, I’d give them even chances. 5. Literally only the Thalmor benefit from this conflict and they are certainly supplying the SCs with information and material indirectly. The SCs wouldn’t take it otherwise. At the end of the day, the DB decides this conflict and canonically the SCs or other similar faction likely wins. Based off history and the performance of the sides, the Empire crushes them the moment the passes clear. Though I forget, why was Ulfric caught at that mountain pass?

[@TheHearthGuy]

Its never confirmed but its assumed that spies in the SCs revealed the location of Ulfric's caravan and though he might have been able to escape, he chose not to fight as to prevent his men from dying pointlessly.

[@insidechaos4913]

I believe that while Ulfric has a lot of local support clear by the fact that most npcs that you meet are pro/neutral for his faction he has no true support outside of that. With no outside aid or any real officer corps thats we can see his revore would be unable to last aginst the elves if they invaded at any point in foece unlike with hammerfell who had at least the whole hammerfell legion sent back home after the peace treaty, no civil war and a strong set of citys to back up the war for independence. The Empire on the other hand can call upon the other nations of high rock (the best calvary as stated in oblivion lore or at least implied), morrowind who have a very strong core of magic users who as show in every game one strong caster can equal one well trained squad of troops and a 1 to 5 plus odds mean they can still provide a lot of aid even with the problems they have and the locals who still support them. In the first scene with Ulfric being captured by someone who is stated to not know the land that well at that point and who had the foresight to just do the deed right then to end the war show they sent the cream of the crop to deal with the problem in the weakest position at that point of the war. From a leadership and governing pov the storm cloaks are doomed to fall to infighting the moment Ulfric dies or the Empire is able to send a single legion to force his rag tag force down and the only way he can stay in power is with the dragon born but that's can't be accounted for as the dragonborn is most likely dealing with the next world ending threat

[@איתיסדן-פ7מ]

Have you played the trails series of jrpgs because this video style is perfect for those games

[@aidankeogh9994]

I've been fully in support of Skyrim's independence since 2011 for reasons I'll explain. For one, the Empire is utterly intolerant and has no respect towards the Nords- towards their culture, their religious beliefs, their values, or their ability to govern their own lands. Tullius for instance coming out with lines such as "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor", "Tell me again why I'm wasting resources chasing a fairy tale", "Don't you Nords put any stock in your own traditions?", "Any last words before I send you to wherever you people go when you die?". Because that last line "I'll never get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords, but I've come to respect them", _he hasn't._ Whether Tullius realizes it or not. Now of course, its not Tullius' job to be nice. He was sent up to Skyrim by the Emperor because it was known he was an effective general, and end stop the war quickly and cheaply. But I doubt Tullius is an outlier in his thinking. And no, the Stormcloaks are not a racist organization. The example in Windhelm everyone always points to, Rolff Stone-Fist and Angrenor Once-Honored, _neither_ of those men are Stormcloaks. That scene isn't meant to convey that Windhelm- home of the Stormcloak Rebellion- is therefore the racism capital of Skyrim. Its meant to convey that Windhelm is a _powder keg_ of racial tensions between three historically _extremely hostile_ groups, because Ulfric has been ignoring the administrative aspects of his hold to focus on the war. When Galmar asks a non-Nord player why they want to fight for Skyrim, it's reasonable to ask that of a foreigner. The Stormcloaks are a grassroots organization whose recruitment is based solely on the conviction of its members, and if they lose the civil war, _its over, no more Stormcloaks._ They have every reason to be cautious of foreigners wanting to join a nationalist movement fighting for Skyrim's independence. Galmar has the same suspicions of a Nord player, because they're established as having come from Cyrodiil. And no, "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" is not some proclamation that the Stormcloaks intend to make Skyrim some nordic _ethnostate_ and send all outlanders packing, not even a society as cruel as the _Ayleids_ made an ethnostate. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" means that Nords ought to be governing their own province- and the right to self-determination is entirely natural. That being said, Ulfric certainly has the charisma to lead a revolution but I'm not convinced he's the right man to lead Skyrim in peacetime. He's clearly not a very trusting person, given the non-existence of Windhelm's court, and he's clearly prone to indecision because he constantly needs Galmar's cheerleading to gas him up. More than that, he's middle-aged with no children. And Ulfric has made little diplomatic overtures to his neighbors- High Rock hasn't been receptive which isn't surprising on account of it still being an Imperial province, but him not fighting harder to gain support from Morrowind isn't a good look. When Elder Scrolls 6 comes around, I do expect to hear that the Stormcloaks won the civil war... but that High King Ulfric's recent reforms to reinstitute old, pre-Empire nordic law across the land have been controversial and that independent Skyrim's state of peace has been shaky.

[@Kai-vq3gf]

He has plans to ally with Hammerfell. And him not having children isn't really a problem, in the High King sense of things, since the king is decided in a Moot, not by blood. Torygg got his father's seat because everyone was paid out to elect an imperial minded head without worry over politics.

[@JurzGarz]

Ulfric will most likely not be alive come TES VI, and if he is, he will not be referenced by name. The games are always written in a way that all of a player’s potential choices in previous titles **could** be canon. For example, Vivec is scarcely referenced in TES IV and V, and what references there are leave open the possibility of his death. If Skyrim is independent in TES VI, it will be either explicitly not ruled by Ulfric, or will be ruled by an unnamed king who may or may not be Ulfric.

[@a_n1441]

@@aidankeogh9994 “he doesn’t want to make a Nord ethnostate” “The Nords ought to be governing their own province” That’s what an ethnostate is. You’re saying that a single ethnic group should have exclusive right of rule over a state. It’s literally the definition of an ethnostate

[@a_n1441]

And yes, the Ayleids (and most other provinces in this setting) were an ethnostate, they had a widespread ideology of lesser races and practiced eugenics and racial slavery. An ethnostate isn’t just “kick out all of the other races”

[@anna-flora999]

If you come as someone from a different race, you literally have to first earn the title of "ice blood" or something like that to prove that you're "one of the good ones"

[@theintelligentork7470]

1:11 well they’ll get plenty of water from the snow

[@electivetoast6897]

I'm willing to write off Ulfric's capture at the start of the game as Bethesda doing tropey bad writing, because they wanted the player to start as a prisoner and meet all the relevant Civil War figures at the start of the game. In any other scenario, Ulfric would be too paranoid and cautious to allow himself to fall to ambush. Emil just doesn't understand or remember the characters he's writing about sometimes.

[@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access]

Alternative Starting mod lets you do just that, plus way more awesome shit too. Highly recommend

[@brandonhelcher3691]

I initially sided with the Empire mainly for Jarl Balgruff. I also thought Ulfric, with the voice, would be a more interesting opponent. Ultimately disappointed in his fight though.

[@AlexisB-gv1tk]

It feels pointless to introduce a new playable faction and then make their defeat canon

[@Dressyone223]

One of the reasons why I don’t side with Ulfric is because of what he did to Torygg. There’s a very high chance that they could have united and worked together but Ulfric decided to do things differently

[@damackabet.4611]

Their isn't much chance, torygg's wife is an imperial milk drinker. Torygg himself was a coward, and a bad high king. As well as the duel was entirely legitimate under skyrim law, you can say oh it was unfair, but duh that is how duels are. Also kind of the point, it was to show how weak and pathetic the high king was.

[@Dressyone223]

@ if Torygg was such a coward then why did he agree to the duel at all? Torygg was a young king who never got to prove himself because at the end of the day, Skyrim’s independence is a secondary goal to Ulfric. If he really wanted what’s best for Skyrim he’d have worked with Torygg since its stated in the game that Torygg respected and looked up to Ulfric.

[@oathkeeperofoblivion972]

A lot of Skyrim tramples what i find cool about the nords, reducing them to angry Cyrrodils thet sometimes pay lip service to their old gods. The stormcloaks embody what i mean, and i get like sure, they'd imeprialize, logically, but thats.....boring? Make the war because the thalmor banned lorkhan worship, the nords REAAALLLY like their aspect of lorkhan, Shor, so...i dunno, could still have a similar conflict without just making the nords worship the imperialized versions of the divines. Thats not to say i hate skyrim, though. It was my first elder scrolls game, and even if I find I prefer morrowind, I still come back to skyrim from time to time, and I always feel a deep longing for the type of place that it is. The taigas and the tundras in particular, honestly.

[@a_n1441]

@@oathkeeperofoblivion972 Talos, while Imperialized, is (to an extent) Shor, who is Lorkhan. Even Shor was part of an already partially-imperialized pantheon that followed the Atmoran animal pantheon. Nord lore was barebones before Skyrim, I think people really overstate the importance of certain things because what little lore we had was interesting.

[@oathkeeperofoblivion972]

@a_n1441 it's less that it was bare bones and more that it feels....stripped back from what it was, if that makes sense.

[@sirsteam6455]

@@a_n1441 Nord Lore was barebones but it was defined, and that defined lore was trampled. Its one thing to have a religious war, but to have a religious war for a foreign god because another foreign power is forcing your overlords to stop is absurd, especially given the Imperials ALSO worship Talos. Also even if Shor and Talos are comparable, as you say to an extent, the differences still make Skyrim plot odd given that only 200 years prior they were worshipping the old gods

[@MrHattor]

HELL YES. It needs to be said!! We’ve had like half a decade of “ummm actually the imperials were right” content. About damn time for a well reasoned retort

[@steveng6721]

Yeah its because the stormcloaks are basically nazis, goose stepper.

[@MrHattor]

Not Lorkhan (or not just) but SHOR!!!!

[@TamaMochi678]

Skyrim belongs to the Nords.

[@olivercharles2930]

Nah, Skyrim belongs to the Falmer.

[@TamaMochi678]

@@olivercharles2930 I'm sure the two of them would be happy you're on their side.

[@Skaroosh]

The Stormcloaks are the best ally the Thalmor could have ever hoped for

[@teyrncousland7152]

Morrowind is not part of the empire. The Greg Keyes books prove it with the emperor’s dialogue.

[@agni-kai132]

talos is an imperial god, damn him! ulfric and the stormcloaks have forgotten the old gods of skyrim to keep worshiping a usper and oathbreaker. also let the argonians live in windhelm the city! why they gotta be racist to them!

[@agni-kai132]

Seriously I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the stormcloaks if they actually keep Skyrim culture and weren't super racist themselves to the argonians and the kajiit

[@agni-kai132]

Don't get me wrong I'm also an empire hater but I hate that Skyrim's unique culture and pantheon have been supplanted by talos who is solidly an imperial god. Not one of the Nordic pantheon

[@a_n1441]

Talos is (was) Shor/Shezzar/Lorkhan. Hjalti/Tiber was a Shezzarine, and as Talos he has taken the missing god’s place as the Ninth. He is the most important god to the Nords because he’s the incarnation of the god who was historically most important, even in the old pantheon (and the even older Atmoran pantheon). People who say that Talos replaced Lorkhan are missing the transition: Talos didn’t replace Lorkhan, he became Lorkhan.

[@tyler71717]

Alduin returns, allowing Ulfric to escape. The nords are now emboldened beyond anything we can imagine, and from this point, regardless of how the battles go, the resistance will grow. The Empire will realzie Skyrim is too costly, and it cannot afford to throw away their legions to a rebellion which will never cease. With Ulfric or not, the Empire will inevitably leave, and maintain relations with Skyrim.

[@anna-flora999]

Which is kinda weird. You'd think mega Satan showing up to save your leader would cause morale issues

[@QasqaZhol]

Simperial failures: so afraid of elves they are ready to fight everyone except the elves😂😂😂 And the image of a week emperor with no authority in the dark brotherhood mission is also shows how simperials are not the ones who will end elven domination😂

[@QueenAleenaFan]

The Empire, who lost to a bunch of elves and renounced their God will not succeed

[@olivercharles2930]

"a bunch of elves" Yeah, I think the Aldmeri Dominion is a little more than just a bunch of elves.

[@some_shitposting_idiot3023]

You mean elves who held the emperor hostage and other than that were being absolutely beaten back? The only reason the empire lost is because they have loyalty to their emperor that's it

[@thevoicestoldmetoagain4627]

The Imperials are sinking. They are absolutely losing the war. They have essentially bowed down to the Aldmeri. Thalmor freely walk through Skyrim and kill people on the streets for their choice of religious worship. The odds that the Imperials get it together and win are so ridiculously low. To defeat the Aldmeri, Skyrim needs to unite and join with Hammerfell and the other providences to fight off the Aldmeri. Maybe then the Aldmeri lose. Maybe the Stormcloaks can unite Skyrim better than the Imperials have done. Maybe under Stormcloak reign, Skyrim successfully allies with more providences to fight the Aldmeri. Maybe they win. But for the Stormcloaks to reign, Skyrim would have to rise from the ashes like a Phoenix. Imperials and Thalmor are already in conflict over Skyrim. The last thing Skyrim needs is a third party getting imvolved, making it a three-way free-for-all war. The Thalmor/Aldmeri are well aware that a divided nation is weak. They are actively trying to let that third party join the fight. But the Thalmor will then step back and bide their time. Once the civil war goes on long enough, they come in and sweep the rest up. Skyrim HAS to unite to win. At all costs they must unite. A civil war is among the worst things that could be going on at the time. Understanding all this, knowing that the Stormcloaks are a much bigger risk than the Imperials, it might be best to stick with the current Imperial structure. The odds for an Imperial victory are greater than the current odds for a Stormcloak victory. We simply have not been given enough information to make a proper decision honestly. Some small bits that cause speculation but no details provided. We know Hammerfell has actually done well against the Aldmeri. I am cutting myself off here. I could go on for a great while here still. There are simply not enough factual details provided to know who to side with. We barely know what is going on outside of Skyrim. Heck, we barely know whats going on IN Skyrim with all the NPC contradictions 😂

[@damackabet.4611]

You really need to open a map, its impossible for the thalmor to reach skyrim without invading hammerfell or cyrodiil. The only reality for an invasion of skyrim, is if one of the other province's falls. That isn't some hyping them up to be super gods, the only water path is by the north, which requires sailing around hostile hammerfell/highrock. In other words impossible, or to invade hammerfell who proved to be able to beat thalmor, or invade cyrodiil who would immediately get the aid of skyrim and likely hammerfell.

[@chadnorris8257]

I'm not sure why Ulfric would ally with Cyrodiil after conquering territory from them, and killing one of their top generals. If he wanted to help Cyrodiil fend off the Thalmor, why go to war at all? I could see him allying with Hammerfell, but in game he'd rather send emissaries to Hugh Rock. Which sounds real funny to me, given the Nords betrayed an alliance with the Bretons over Tiber Septim already. Now he wants to try to unite the two provinces over Talos worship. No big surprise they haven't answered back. Cyrodiil acts as a buffer between Skyrim and the Dominion. Starting a civil war and going to war with the Empire is just a dumb move. Granted I'm not sure there's evidence of Ulfric being a great war leader anyway. He's mostly known for making speeches, knowing a couple of shouts, and getting captured repeatedly.

[@damackabet.4611]

Because he doesn't hate the empire, he hates what they have become. Remember every single thalmor you see in skyrim, the imperials let in. They are only there because imperials let them enter. If thalmor invade the empire, he will come to their aid but not because he likes them but because his ultimate goal is to keep the thalmor out.

[@chadnorris8257]

​@@damackabet.4611 One thing Ulfric mentions in his "why I fight" speech is seeing soldiers dying on foreign soil. This makes me think he'll be hesitant to send people to protect other regions. He might send an army through Cyrodiil, as he has no other option to get to the dominion without getting on a boat. I just don't think the Empire would trust his intentions enough to not decide Cyrodiil needs to be free to worship Talos too.

[@kingofbel6499]

If the Stormcloaks were to win the war, it would benefit the Thalmor, and they would just take over Skyrim anyways.

[@elamolced5213]

The most likely ending for the civil ear is season unending. The dragon born is there to end the war he/she is there to kill alduin Plus it alows both imperial and storm cloak fans have their side survive.

[@AssasiCraftYogUscus]

Part of what helped Hammerfell win independence was the Empire leaving several legions to help fight the Thalmor. This is something that many in Ulfric's camp wouldnt allow during a new Thalmor invasion

[@damackabet.4611]

Those weren't imperial legions, GOD HOW DUMB ARE YOU PEOPLE? Those were hammerfell legions, they were redguards that were in the legion, who upon hearing their homeland was being sold to the thalmor to buy cyrodiils peace, rebelled and went to help hammerfell. It's the same equivalent of what happened in real life when Russia fell apart, SOLDIERS RETURNED TO THEIR HOMELAND. Their is no such thing as empire legions, their are only legions made up from the individual provinces. Hammerfell had legions in the empire, skyrim had legions in the empire, highrock had legions in the empire, cyrodiil had legions in the empire. EVERYONE HAD LEGIONS IN THE EMPIRE BECAUSE THEY RECRUIT FROM EVERYWHERE. The legions that left weren't imperials, they were redguards who didn't want to see their homeland sold, that is why they left and the emperor had no choice but to accept it. It wasn't some oh the emperor sent reinforcements, he couldn't the thalmor would had pushed that as reason the war would continue which the emperor was too cowardly to fight. The emperor gave no aid, no resources nothing to said legions leaving, he even had to declare them to have mutinied to uphold the treaty, because the thalmor came to bitch to him, reminder the thalmor are legally allowed to have troops in the empire now, so they couldn't do it under the table either because the thalmor are watching inside imperial borders. Think of this way, the usa army is made up of soldiers from all 50 states, if the usa lost a war to china and gave up california to buy the peace, california would have soldiers rebel to go and aid them, likely soldiers from some other states too as well mind you, those soldiers aren't just american soldiers, their also california soldiers as they were recruited from california.

[@AssasiCraftYogUscus]

@damackabet.4611 Man someone woke up with a full diaper today. There were legions from Cyrodil reinforcing Hammerfell. When the capital was sacked General Decianus left behind a bunch of troops.

[@Jumikana]

Honestly, I tend to ignore the Civil War story line, considering how half-baked it is. Although that just seems like a part of Skyrims wide-but-shallow issue - there is a lot of contend but it lacks depth. Or it could be because I played DAO first and while its story is wary much a product of the times stuff like the dwarven succession crisis felt just more fleshed out

[@thecrazycharlatan5295]

I’m not against Skyrim having its independence. However first those racist stormcloaks need to stop their hatred of, Khajit, Argonians, and Dark Elves. And second they need to put aside their pride and join the empire to defeat the Thalmor first. Then Skyrim can have independence.

[@isenokami7810]

I used to be Team Stormcloak when I started, and I still don’t like siding with the Empire, but these days I don’t think actually joining up is the play. Besides the dark elf racism that I want no part of, the war being beneficial to the Thalmor seems pretty counterintuitive to a faction that hates them so passionately, as you addressed yourself. Feels like the best course of action as the Dragonborn is to not bother with the civil war at all, while slaughtering any Thalmor you see: insignificant, sure, but my blade’s pointed at the true threat. Edit: realized I didn’t get to some of the real reasons not to side with Ulfric. I do like his conviction like a lot of people in Skyrim do, I just don’t think he’ll be able to hold the province too well once everything’s said and done. The new, independent Skyrim is likely to either get retaken by the empire when the pass opens up, or just crushed by the Thalmor harder than they crushed the Empire. Would love to see Ulfric try to hold out though, you know he’s not going quietly.

[@damackabet.4611]

have you met the dark elves? their all for slavery, all racist, and only there because their refugees which one of ulfrics ancestors let in. The racism isn't because their dark elves, its because they were let in ages ago and refuse to return home, a home they fucked up mind you, and has lost significant portions of territory because argonians invaded. The war isn't favorable for thalmor, unless it lasts a long time. The thalmor under no circumstance want either side to win, especially skyrim since they will actually oppose the thalmor, the empire is too cowardly to even attempt it.

[@bradleyrutledge]

A Stormcloak Victory is a Thalmor Victory.

[@Leeloo-Foxx]

regardless who wins, the thalmor wins anyways. they either fight a weakened empire who only just ended a war with skyrim, or they fight a weakened skyrim with no empire support. like theres simply no way around it, both sides are wrong, and anyone who thinks the empire winning means they can beat the thalmor is wrong, both sides are simply going to be too weak, the thalmor will almost certainly attack as soon as the civil war is announced to be over

[@a_n1441]

The Thalmor have no way to attack Skyrim without getting through Hammerfell and Cyrodiil first. They’d have to take Hammerfell to gain naval superiority, and then Cyrodiil, and THEN Skyrim. Which is what they already tried, and failed, to do. Ulfric isn’t the better choice, but it’s not an automatic Thalmor victory if Skyrim becomes independent.

[@anna-flora999]

​@@a_n1441they failed when they were up against a united empire, not the mess ulffric created

[@damackabet.4611]

@@anna-flora999 um no, they succeeded against the empire due to a weak emperor surrendering. Hammerfell went on to beat the thalmor alone.

[@endikaaspeurrutia1013]

When i played skyrim I was 100% with them... Until the racism thing :v

[@thecrazednative357]

Let not the foulest of apples sour the bushel. Even as a staunch stormcloak, I take heart beating the teeth in of those who sully the uniform and purpose of our cause. Fanatics on either side will always damage the reputaion of their own. And some will only show those fanatics to turn away those who would otherwise fight.

[@damackabet.4611]

the empire is just as racist as skyrim, EVERYONE IS RACIST it is the elder scrolls. Besides they let anyone serve as long as their for a free and independent skyrim. Your like oh their racist, have you looked at the empire? they currently fighting a war to oppress the nords, every time you see thalmor escorting prisoners, that is the imperials doing they are only there because the empire lets them cross from their border. Just go hear how general tullius refers to nords and try and say their isnt racism, or how everyone talks about the khajit.

[@endikaaspeurrutia1013]

@damackabet.4611 being against one si de doesnt mean supporting the other.

[@teyrncousland7152]

Morrowind is not part of the empire. The Greg Keyes books prove it with the emperor’s dialogue.