Why This Atheist Philosopher Converted to Eastern Orthodoxy

[@Player-re9mo]

Cameron, please interview an Orthodox priest to talk about the teachings and practices of Orthodox Christianity! A priest is more knowledgeable than someone who just became Orthodox. As an Orthodox I'm glad you're willing to talk with different denominations. These are the right steps to bring the Church back together.

[@KevinVallier]

I just want to say that I agree with Player 10.

[@cyriljorge986]

I agree even though I think Dr. Vallier gave a great interview.

[@jordand5732]

A priest is oftentimes prone to more pitfalls than a philosopher, might not be as secure with that route.

[@cyriljorge986]

@@jordand5732 Absolutely untrue, there is no ontology of a "philosopher" in the Orthodox mindset to begin with beyond a theologian, and theologians are generally clerics or monastics. What you're saying is a non-starter, but it's also wrong on its own terms. Orthodox priests are remarkable; it's amazing when you encounter the real stuff. It took me off my feet, I was in the dark for much too long.

[@jordand5732]

@@cyriljorge986 I’m sure they are man, and it might not be expressly stated in your religion, but philosophers like this one are literally trained to be very careful with every word and every argument they put forward as their entire livelihood. Generally priests and other ministers have less training philosophically and they can get themselves into trouble. That’s why jay dyer does a better job debating than a typical eastern orthodox priest. That’s all I’m gonna say, I didn’t mean to upset you. We can just agree to disagree.

[@calebevans743]

I'm getting baptized and chrismated in the Holy Orthodox church this Sat! There is a balance and stability that I've found absent in Protestantism and Catholicism.

[@iliya3110]

I was chrismated in February coming from Roman Catholicism. :-) Many years! I completely agree, by the way in regards to your comment on stability and balance. Orthodoxy is 'whole' and 'complete' in the Tradition in a way the others are not.

[@RadicOmega]

You need to have more EO guys on!

[@PopCultureWizard]

Yes! Agreed!

[@feeble_stirrings]

Love it! Great conversation. I'm glad to see you talking with an Orthodox Christian. I know you've been looking heavily into Catholicism. Wasn't sure whether you'd been considering Orthodoxy at all. More of this!

[@TheBrunarr]

As a Catholic I love my Orthodox brothers and sisters

[@warriorgoat5939]

@Thomas tlimon.westlaw I didn’t realize that you speak for all Orthodox Cristians. Impressive.

[@vaskaventi6840]

@Thomas tlimon.westlaw I think that's more common in online circles though

[@franklinpanakkal97]

Even I love catholics BTW iam orthodox

[@matiaskoivulehto5880]

@Thomas tlimon.westlaw exactly. for those reasons i never converted to eo.

[@Thomasrice07]

@Thomas tlimon.westlaw Doesn't matter what the individuals think.

[@stefanielynn84]

Joining the Orthodox church is the best thing that ever happened to me and my family.

[@thaddeusthought]

There are are some of us humans that trust our feelings so much, that when we hear an argument we immediately have a visceral reaction. I appreciate so much that he has intellectual humility instead, that when he hears a challenging argument his natural response is "this could be true." One cannot find truth without this attitude, an attitude built on seeing one's own fallibility and one's need for outside help. If we make arguments from "common sense" we should check to see if we're doing "what's right in our own eyes" or "leaning on our own understanding." Both of these are Scriptural descriptions of sin.

[@stmichael71]

I'm happy you talked with Kevin, who's a great guy and a very sincere believer, apart from being a solid and creative thinker. I agree that the liturgy has more pull than others might concede. It'd be interesting to interview a Byzantine Catholic at some point for a contrast. (This is Fr. JD Rooney, OP, btw; I'd be happy to chat about some of this).

[@arthurandersen7]

Many significant philosophers are EO (e.g. Swinburne(!)). There's a book by St. Vladimir's press "Turning East" that covers 16 biographies of such philosophers. I hope you'll bring some Orthodox priests and theologians to explain the historical grounding and doctrine of the Church. Thanks for the content and I hope your journey ends in the best way!

[@ThruTheUnknown]

I really enjoyed what Kevin had to say, thanks for having an Eastern Orthodox on. I have recently converted from Protestantism to the Eastern orthodox church myself, one of the best decisions I've ever made.

[@wilsonw.t.6878]

Have you not been EO for more than a year? I've seen you comment on videos before, I feel like over a year ago.

[@ThruTheUnknown]

@@wilsonw.t.6878 Been about two years catechism due to covid and having no priest at one church for quite a while until the new comes being delayed by covid as well etc 🙄

[@Havoc2317]

I can resonate with Dr. Vallier. All the theological debates within Christianity has left me parched and dry also. Visited catholic mass on Sunday and orthodox liturgy next week. May God lead us all into his truth

[@mkl2237]

Parched? Dry? Try KY !!!

[@tinycheemsdog7005]

oh wow, i read a book by this guy for a class in college. small world. i'm a catholic myself but its nice to see people come to faith from atheism, especially academics!

[@Apanblod]

What's wrong with atheism? 😢

[@andys3035]

I'm an Orthodox catechumen after 20 plus years as a Protestant and I couldn't be happier. The church has been amazing and the people have welcomed me open arms as a non Greek. The first Liturgy I attended was foreign but amazing at the same time. I haven't looked back since Kyrie Eleison ☦️

[@alexandria1663]

I’m a Protestant myself but I’m definitely curious about Orthodoxy. I just have so many questions 😂

[@orthochristos]

Welcome brother

[@andys3035]

@@orthochristos thanks my brother 🙏 ☦️

[@andys3035]

@Duane I believe there was a comment in the video about people complaining about the Orthodox churches being ethnically segregated and I was simply saying I haven't experienced any of that.

[@thattimestampguy]

Cameron Bertuzzi interviews Dr Kevin Vallier on Vallier’s journey to Eastern Orthodoxy. 1:34 Washington University in St. Louis Missouri. 3:19 Dr Kevin Vallier was a Missouri Lutheran for about 12-Years. 3:34 Dr Kevin Vallier was attracted to the idea that The Church helps a person grow in Holyness. 4:34 2017 5:05 Presence of God felt. 5:18 It’s kind of a complicated spiritual reaction, “my heart was parched.” 6:00 Partisan Thomists. 7:07 “The [Orthodox] Church has been so persecuted and decimated that what many Orthodox think is Orthodoxy is really just kinda made up from the diaspora of theologians.” 8:07 PAUSE: Who are you Dr Kevin Vallier? • Dr Kevin Vallier was born in South Alabama Coast. 8:42 • Always interested in Philosophy, Politics, Economics • Washington St Louis University • Arizona University PH.D. 9:18 PPE - Philosophy Politics, Economics. 10:22 Dr Kevin Vallier’s website is in the description of this interview livestream/video. 10:57 Eastern Orthodox Church ⛪️ 11:19 Philosophical Anthropology. Standing and being with God. 11:58 “You’re not gonna do it by intellectual arguments… The Liturgy is the argument.” 12:57 “It’s a weird sense of God is Here.” 14:50 The Mystery. 15:28 Disagreements, Persecution. Captivity of The Greek Church under The Ottomans. 16:27 *Why Eastern Orthodoxy, Dr Kevin Vallier?* 16:49 *What Was Dr Kevin Vallier convinced of?* 17:13 19-Year Old Kevin Vallier blog posted his thinking to other Christian Philosophers he knew on Facebook for months. 18:13 Orthodox Worship. + Fully Sacramental (Holy Mysteries) [Unlike Protestantism, which is not sacramental to some extent] + Inerrant Where She Claims To Be [Unlike Roman Catholicism, which is errant to some extent] 18:23 + Beautiful + Effective for Becoming Like Jesus ☦️⛪️ 19:34 How certain can I be I am receiving The True Eucharist!? 21:14 [Roman] Catholicism 22:13 - Issue 1: Universal Status of The Pope, Papal Supremacy. 23:15 The Pope CANNOT hire and fire The Patriarch of Constantinople. He does not/ought not possess that power. 24:09 - Issue 2 [Q&A upcoming] *The Roman Catholic Council of Trent* 24:50 Later 16th Century 25:06 An Obscure Canon _which looks like it’s dogmatic_ of The Council of Trent. • The Canon of The 25:57 Cessession of Baptism, Canon #14 • essentially an Anathematization of Erasmus of Rotermadus *Papal Authority in Medieval Councils* 🏰 27:34 The Fourth Lateran Council of The Roman Catholic Church. *What Made The Biggest Difference in Going to Eastern Orthodoxy?* 29:43 Dallas Willard’s influence on Dr Kevin Vallier. *Q&A* 30:43 • The Major Orthodox Christian Church Event is The Divine Liturgy 32:08 • Closed Communion, you have to be baptized/christmated Orthodox to take Communion. 33:10 • Homilty • Acapella Singing 🎵 • Learning to Stand In God’s Presence 34:15 • Paschal Liturgy is 3-Hours, you get used to it. • + Self-Control • + Disciplining one’s passions. 35:38 Are children allowed? + Yes. 37:00 “Joining The Marines” • You don’t earn your salvation. 37:57 Hallow App Advertisement, Lo-Fi 40:10 The Argument from Contingency. Edward Feiser. Fine Tuning Arguments. 41:35 Does the Eastern Orthodox Church permit women to teach men? 43:24 Center-Right 44:00 The Eucharist. 45:20 What is The Minimum someone can believe and correctly be said to be a Christian? 💭🤔 + Affirming The Nicene Creed + Affirming The First Seven Ecumenical Councils 47:40 Church Tradition, not strictly defining. 49:40 Why are Laypeople not allowed to administer The Sacraments? • It is bestowed on certain people. • ex. The Reader. 51:01 What Concessions would have to be made by Roman Catholics to Reconcile and Reunify The Orthodox And Roman Catholic Churches? • First Among Equals • Ecclesiastical Independence • We are not big liturgical reformers.

[@OrthoReadings]

It would be great to see you have Fr. Josiah Trenham on here, an Orthodox priest out of California.

[@afterwit3620]

Father Trenham would be an excellent guest.

[@reasonandtheology]

I'm happy Dr. Vallier has taken an interest in engaging Catholicism. However, there is nothing new here that hasn't been answered many times. My Papacy playlist, Eastern Orthodoxy playlist and Vatican II playlist engages these claims often. I also just did a video on my channel for channel members in response to this video.

[@ThruTheUnknown]

He's had a lot of Catholics on giving their case for Catholicism to the point where I'm sure Cam is up to speed on the pro Catholics claims of their alleged validity

[@KevinVallier]

Hi Erick, I never intended to provide a systematic criticism of Catholicism that would answer all objections. Cam had me on to talk about my own experience, and I had to compress years of reasoning into a few minutes.

[@reasonandtheology]

@@KevinVallier This is Michael Lofton. I am the one who wrote the comment above. Thank you for the comment and for the interaction. I don't hold you to a systematic treatment but I do offer some criticisms based on what you have provided. I do this for a living so I do understand one has to be brief. That is not what I base my interaction on. So my arguments are not based on what you didn't say but more on what you did say. First, on my channel I demonstrate you are mistaken about Vatican I ecclesiology in the first millennium and then I demonstrate the canon you cited from Trent is disciplinary. You claimed the canon seems dogmatic and I showed that is not true. I then bring up what that entails. I also demonstrate that exsurge domine employs a global censure and that the specific censor for the proposition you noted is a minor censure which can be applied variously according to prudence. You claimed the proposition was given the note of heresy and that is factually not true. Lastly I show that your argument mostly hinges on a disagreement with what you believe to be an unjust position expressed by the Catholic Church and I show that some atheists use the same kind of moral arguments against the existence of God because of evil in the world. So I'm not sure that is a consistent reason to reject the Catholic view, whatever it may actually be. If you would like to discuss this further let's start a chat at [e-mail]. Perhaps you will come on my show and I can ask you some questions so that I can charitably challenge your reasons for choosing Orthodoxy over Catholicism.

[@KevinVallier]

@@reasonandtheology: First, I'd love to view the video but can't seem to find it. Second, I was hoping to come on your show when my book on integralism comes out next year! Maybe we can hash it out when I've had a chance to review my notes on the topic.

[@cyriljorge986]

@@KevinVallier Lofton is skimming the area, trying to pick up anyone he can pull into his sphere of influence, even though his dishonest behavior has been documented extremely thoroughly by figures in and outside of the youtube space. To borrow his phrasing, he "does this for a living."

[@israelnitta]

Dr. Amos Young, Dr. David Lim, and Dr. Craig Keener are great intellectuals on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

[@2222cream]

Orthodoxy is the final boss, the OG. Get to it Cameron!

[@TheOtherCaleb]

On Lutheranism, I’d love to see a Cameron Bertuzzi x Jordan Cooper interview

[@azurephoenix9546]

I would also enjoy that. I'd be very interested in seeing Cooper defend his near total ignorance of old testament sacrifice. And why he called people who oppose acceptance of what I'll politely call "alternative lifestyles" neo-nazis and holocaust deniers.

[@miinintapple]

OH MY GOSH! He teaches at BGSU! I went there!

[@mosesaltair3893]

I'd love to see you interview Seraphim Hamilton.

[@joelmontero9439]

Cameron you should bring Jonathan Pageau and Seraphim Hamilton to the channel🖒 God bless you two guys

[@wilsonw.t.6878]

Seraphim Hamilton, Kabane... who is a young earth creationist. OK.

[@alexjurado6029]

26 minutes into this video and this gentlemen gives me great hope for full reunion between east and west!

[@RadicOmega]

GOD WILLING

[@moejoe6422]

never. catholics will always have the pope

[@alexjurado6029]

@@moejoe6422 Orthodox had the Pope too until 1054.

[@moejoe6422]

@@alexjurado6029 😭😭this guy has never looked into orthodoxy

[@alexjurado6029]

@@moejoe6422 which guy? 👀

[@propriusly]

I have noticed that many former Protestants can't get over the "protesting" heritage of their denomination against Catholicism. So, Orthodoxy is the best choice for several reasons, both personal, cultural and theological. The draw of Orthodoxy is that most churches are not trying to be modern. The post Vatican Roman church has destroyed itself to be appealing. This is not the case for Orthodoxy.

[@carakerr4081]

Excellent interview thank you. I was saved at age 39 in 2013. Ten years later God is asking me to move away from evangelical Christianity and toward Greek Orthodoxy. God bless you!

[@seeker3599]

Great conversation; very well spoken guest. A few clarifications: Orthodoxy theology is not compatible with substitutionary atonement (at least in the way it is typically defined in the west). The Orthodox Church has never had females in any liturgical or clerical function. The deaconess Dr. Vallier speaks of did not have a liturgical function; they were simply ordained with the sole function of baptizing women (because at the time everyone was baptized naked). Also, the Orthodox Church does hold (and has throughout history) daily liturgies as the ideal. Most monasteries if they have enough hands do daily liturgies. Some cathedrals and churches with enough help do as well.

[@Ioannikios174]

If I were him, I would absolutely read Fr. Seraphim Rose

[@jacob5283]

I've been hoping you'd bring on an EO guest for some time now! And I liked Dr. Vallier's perspective on these things in particular

[@thesonnen447]

Great interview!

[@islamicclarity7062]

Man, Cameron, I commend you on fielding all these comments.

[@alexjurado6029]

This is a great interview. It also clearly shows the deficiencies in Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology. The east needs the west as much as the west needs the east. We need each other.

[@ItsThatGuy1989]

How is it deficient

[@TheBrunarr]

Catholicism has the best ecclesiology imo

[@alexjurado6029]

@@ItsThatGuy1989 it’s deficient because it has no objective way to definitively settle matters on a universal level. Look at what he said about birth control/contraception..that it was up to each individual person’s spiritual advisor. Birth control is either moral or immoral. And the Orthodox Church has no way to definitively settle that question on a universal level. It can’t even call an ecumenical council to even BEGIN to discuss the matter…Orthodoxy needs the Pope.

[@ItsThatGuy1989]

@@alexjurado6029 yes and that’s a good thing. Most things should be with you and your priest. That’s one of the things that’s most attractive about orthodoxy. That’s not a con, that’s a pro. All of the big salvation issues are settled in the councils.

[@alexjurado6029]

@@ItsThatGuy1989 but you believe in objective moral truth, right? And you believe that morality plays a role in our salvation, correct? So how can one priest permit contraception/birth control, and another allow it? The only way that could be possible if it was NOT a moral issue and strictly a matter of prudence. But many Orthodox priests do not allow their flock to use contraception/birth control due to it being a MORAL issue, not a porcentual issue. So, again, which is it? Is contraception moral or immoral? Because different priests and bishops will say different things.

[@CristianaCatólica]

GOD BLESS HIS ONE AND ONLY CATHOLIC CHURCH.

[@amongthethorns8788]

Super interesting!

[@greekfreak5789]

While this argument in an academic sense ultimately does come down to the papacy, I think an interesting point for converts to explore is the strictly pragmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. There's a reason virtually all pop KZbin Catholic apologists sequester themselves in Eastern Catholic churches (a tiny, isolated corner of the church). The Novus Ordo mass (which is celebrated in 90%+ of all Catholic churches), is one step removed from a Protestant service. In the Novus Ordo (the standard mass of the Church), you will find no shortage of liturgical abuse - from the extreme but rare (clown masses), to the more common but seriously strange and unpalatable (charismatic worship, full on bands with drum sets, etc.). I feel like what primarily motivates Protestant converts is the desire to get away from this type of nonsense, and rediscover tradition. Meanwhile, you have in Catholicism a church that is constantly scandalized on an almost monthly basis (aforementioned liturgical abuses far and wide, Pope Francis contradicting himself on apparent Catholic dogmas (e.g., death penalty), Pachamama, sexual abuse, same sex marriage in the German Catholic church, LGBT masses, etc.) The Orthodox look at all of this as an inevitable and logical end-result of heresy - just like the Protestant Reformation was an inevitable result of the abuses and heresies of the Catholic church in the middle ages. I don't say this to mean Orthodoxy does not have its own scandals, or controversial figures...it does. But at the end of the day, no matter where you go to a Divine Liturgy, it is the same Divine Liturgy that the true Church has been celebrating for a thousands of years - and as an average parishioner you simply will not find the same degree of every day scandal that you do in the Catholic church.

[@cyriljorge986]

Quite telling that every public face of Romanism is either a Uniate or a Trad, when they make up, combined,

[@greekfreak5789]

@DonnyBlips I hear what you're saying, and respect it, but your response again amounts to an academic disputation. If the average person wants to pick up a book and read about the Orthodox perspective on things like contraception, and why it's not "flip-flopping", they are free to do so. This difference amounts to historical contingencies and different views on what natural law entails (e.g., see David Bradshaw's article "What Does it Mean to be Contrary to Nature"). Those of us with nerdier proclivities tend to be interested in such matters. But again, pragmatically, for the average layman, the most important part of their religious experience is worship, with the culmination being the Eucharist. This realization is what was expressed in the oft quoted "Lex Orendi, Lex Credendi" mantra. Worship is the bedrock of belief. A reverent, orderly, and consistent service rooted in tradition is exactly what people are seeking in leaving Protestantism and Co. Unfortunately, this sort of worship has become nearly impossible to find in the Catholic Church after the innovations of the last half century and the active suppression that is ongoing today. I echo back the sentiment that the Orthodox have a lot to learn from Catholicism on other points - steps towards reunion should be a priority.

[@cyriljorge986]

@DonnyBlips The Orthodox church isn't constantly in schism-- in fact, mathematically, it has the same amount of time with breaks in communion in the 2nd millennium as it did the first. the RC church invented a new ecclesiology, but it's a dead faith, so it is what happens when you're on the wrong side of a complete schism. Arians, Apollinarians, Donatists, Montanists are in good company. The Pope can't create ecumenical councils, because he is not part of the church. In any case, ecumenical councils have been called after the schism, and pan-Orthodox councils fulfill the same requirement without an ecumene. Hint: the emperor is the crucial factor, not the Pope. The Pope is just another patriarch. There is more conversion being done in Africa by the Orthodox. Converting people to a heretical sect isn't anything to be proud of to begin with. There is no "flip-flop" on contraception, abortion, or divorce. In fact, the Orthodox church *perfectly maintains* the teachings on these issues from the church of the first 1000 years. Ubi Petrus even distilled the evidence of this, which is exhaustive, into youtube format, for those of us that are allergic to books. I am a Roman Catholic scholar and I know nobody who has read the *intro* literature on these topics except for those who got paid for it. There are Orthodox churches full of ex-seminarians like myself. All in all, when your worldview is based on deceit, you end up passing it onto others, knowingly or not. This has ill effects, whether or not it's intentional. Luckily or unluckily, in this information age, nothing is holding you back except for you.

[@cyriljorge986]

@DonnyBlips You may have schizophrenia, please get help. This is 2012-Mayan-Calendar stuff, Romanism really did integrate with Pachamama theology. Of *course* I was not critiquing your decision to make a parallel argument, of *course* I was critiquing the tired, pennies-on-the-dollar RC propaganda itself, the falsities posed as facts. You don't need to be clearer. I know exactly what you're doing. I've talked to thousands of Roman Catholics. You are nothing new, and I respond merely just in case others may fall into your trap.

[@cyriljorge986]

@DonnyBlips Yes, but don't use this type of rhetoric, this is not something to use as a quip or a rhetorical flourish. You have been shut down, so let's stop this. And I'm extremely serious about the schizophrenia thing. I have seen this exact sort of thing play out many times in Roman Catholics. The whole apparitionist/spellcasting wing suffers greatly from psychosis, so I had to say something.

[@williammcenaney1331]

Maybe Dr. Vallier needs to reflect on a paragraph from the Historical Introduction to the Council of Ephesus that met in 431. The Eastern Orthodox denominations accept the first seven ecumenical councils, including the Council of Ephesus. But they reject papal infallibility and the belief that the Catholic Church can teach infallibly. Still, the Historical Introduction to that council tells us that the Council of Ephesus taught infallibly. The Introduction says: "Finally, Celestine himself, after the conclusion of the whole matter, sends a letter to the holy Council of Ephesus, which he thus begins: “At length we must rejoice at the conclusion of evils.” The learned reader understands where he recognizes the conclusion; that is, after the condemnation of Nestorius by the infallible authority of an Ecumenical Council, viz., of the whole Catholic Church. He proceeds: “We see, that you, with us, have executed this matter so faithfully transacted.” All decree, and all execute, that is, by giving a common judgment. Whence Celestine adds, “We have been informed of a just deposition, and a still juster exaltation:” the deposition of Nestorius, begun, indeed, by the Roman See, but brought to a conclusion by the sentence of the Council; to a full and complete settlement, as we have seen above: the exaltation of Maximianus, who was substituted in place of Nestorius immediately after the Ephesine decrees; this is the conclusion of the question. Even Celestine himself recognises this conclusion to lie not in his own examination and judgment, but in that of an Ecumenical Council. And this was done in that Council in which it is admitted that the authority of the Apostolic See was most clearly set forth, not only by words, but by deeds, of any since the birth of Christ. At least the Holy Council gives credence to Philip uttering these true and magnificent encomiums, concerning the dignity of the Apostolic See, and “Peter the head and pillar of the Faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, and by Christ’s authority administering the keys, who to this very time lives ever, and exercises judgment, in his successors.” This, he says, after having seen all the Acts of the Council itself, which we have mentioned, so that we may indeed understand, that all these privileges of Peter and the Apostolic See entirely agree with the decrees of the Council, and the judgment entered into afresh, and deliberation upon matters of Faith held after the Apostolic See." ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214/npnf214.x.ii.html Since you may wonder whether I'm showing Catholic bias, please remember that I found the council documents in the Christian Classics Ethereal Libray that Calvin College compiled. After all, that college is Protestant. By the way, the Apostolic See is the City of Rome.

[@LTzEz03z]

The Liturgy is Everything.

[@michaelhines2987]

His comments on Pope Leo V condemning Luther for stating the spirit is against burning heretics is untrue. He apparently didn’t read the document where he is getting that information. That pronouncements aggregated a bunch of Luther statements and states they are the following: “Heretical, false, scandalous, or offensive to pious ears, as seductive of simple minds, originating with false exponents of the faith who in their proud curiosity yearn for the worlds glory, and contrary to the Apostles teachings”. No statement at all about whether it is ok or not to burn heretics alive. I think this is offensive to the church and assumes they are ok with evil. I also think it is seductive to weak minds.

[@KevinVallier]

Leo V was defending a by-then centuries-old practice, built into canon law, of burning recalcitrant heretics alive. The Council Fathers at Constance handed over Hus to be burned by Emperor Sigismund a century earlier, which helped inspire Luther's objection. The council fathers did not object to the punishment following the trial. It's a sad period of church history, as the church learned the practice from kings and only did it a few centuries. But Leo V manifestly intended to defend the legitimacy of the practice as the law on the books. It is also unclear how condemning a stunning injustice could meet any conditions at the end of ED. Why would proclaiming that burning heretics alive is against the will of the Holy Spirit even be offensive to pious ears?

[@michaelhines2987]

@@KevinVallier Hey Kevin, thank for your very thoughtful comments! That does sound like a sad time in Church history. I will look into what you have pointed out. My comment about it being offensive isn’t because he is pointing out what I think is true (not burning people is good) but because it is accusatory to the Church as if that was currently being practice and was approved. Also in the same document Pope Leo V indicated that the Church would welcome Luther back into the Church and he will be received like the father in the prodigal son parable. So if that is true, that the Church wanted to welcome back a heretic ( their perspective) into the Church that is far from the accusation of burning people alive. This I feel like it was a false accusation (at least in those current times). Can you share information that I can read that would show that Pope Leo V was affirming burning heretics alive vs just saying that is offensive?

[@joshua_finch]

Some churches do have liturgy every day.

[@davidbraun6209]

The problem on Exsurge Domine was that the propositions (specifically the one "to burn heretics is contrary to the will of the Spirit") did not have a precise condemnation. Some were heretical, some were "bad sounding," some were "offensive to pious ears," and the like. Because the condemnation was not clear, infallibility is not implicated. The canon from Trent, hmmm . . . It wasn't as radical as the condemned proposition from Exsurge Domine.

[@junesilvermanb2979]

Exsurge Domine en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exsurge_Domine

[@joshuafischl8819]

33:50 - 'In GOD's presence' as the light flicks on

[@hannahkoala9347]

Good one, thanks.

[@cultofmodernism8477]

Don't chase experience for experience sake. The presence of God in the Orthodox Church is organic. Not forced but peaceful.

[@snowforest6487]

"They focus on converting people" yeah so did Jesus, and all 12 of his disciples went knocking doors to preach and convert, if your denomination doesn't have conversion as one of its core properties you're in the wrong one buddy

[@Michael-dq8xc]

Well said.

[@Player-re9mo]

Your ancient ways of bringing people to church aren't effective anymore son. All cults go knocking on doors nowadays

[@cyriljorge986]

Ubi Petrus did a full length series on the history of conversion in the church (i.e. the Orthodox church), easily digestible for youtube-level thinkers. You can correct your false presuppositions without having to pick up a single book.

[@snowforest6487]

@@cyriljorge986 it's not false and if this clown wants to debate I can take out 10 minutes of my time embarrassing him and any of his goons

[@snowforest6487]

@@cyriljorge986 or how about you we can discuss it on Facebook or Instagram if you want since you've watched his video

[@1991jj]

Cameron, it would be awesome to get David Bentley Hart on in regards to Orthodox theology and because he's nothing short of a theological and philosophical genius.

[@ivanos_95]

People are generally attracted to the Apostolic Churches due to their historical foundation, solid administration, and more consistent theology, which are lacking in case of Protestantism, but most westerners are ending up as Roman-Catholics, because they're usually pushed away by ethnocentrism of the Orthodoxy. However, the ethnocentrism and general respect for the tradition is often the main reason why people are choosing Eastern-Orthodoxy over the other Apostolic Churches, and even the more conservative atheists who would otherwise join some Neo-Pagan cult, are finding the Eastern-Orthodox Church as the most reasonable alternative to the modern institutions.

[@Santiago_Fernandez]

Would you consider having Pastor Steven Anderson on your show? That would definitely be interesting having someone controversial on. He’s banned from KZbin tho so idk if it would have to be on a different platform or something.

[@apracity7672]

Lol

[@chad969]

Lol yeah that sounds like the kind of person Cameron would have on CC

[@paulsmallwood1484]

When will we hear about about someone who became a Protestant? You have covered Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholic converts extensively.

[@voxangeli9205]

Paul Smallwood, to describe this phenomenon that’s been happening just for the past 35 years alone about the thousands of Protestants that have been converting continuously to Catholicism, i.e. the teachers and preachers of the Protestant faith who are the “informed” segment of Protestantism, compared to thousands of Catholics converting to Protestantism, i.e. those who are poorly catechized and are “not the well-informed” segment of the Catholic faith, goes like this: “STRONG” PROTESTANTS BECOME CATHOLICS AND “WEAK” CATHOLICS BECOME PROTESTANTS.

[@paulsmallwood1484]

@@voxangeli9205 Sorry friend but you lost me. It’s me I am sure but nothing you said made any sense. My only point was that I would like to hear a story presented of converts to Protestantism just for a little balance. Maybe they are afraid they’ll lose subscribers. I just find it odd.

[@CapturingChristianity]

I’ve been looking for someone for a while! Help me find someone!

[@mc07]

@@CapturingChristianity Ps Joshua Schooping, Rev Matthew Joyner, Dr Tony Costa, Dr Ed Dalcour

[@paulsmallwood1484]

@@CapturingChristianity former Eastern Orthodox Priest now Evangelical Pastor Joshua Schooping would be an excellent person.

[@nguraboitlung9817]

Thank you so much for this talk. As much as it is delightful and informative to listen to a newly converted Orthodox with a specialist background in philosophy, could you please invite (in future) any one of the acclaimed Orthodox theologians i.e., priest/ Bishop or layperson, to talk more authoritatively on Orthodox theology, liturgical life, church governance, church canons, Orthodox spirituality, & Orthodox-Catholic dislogue etc etc? That would be much more interesting I think. There are so many well-known English-speaking Orthodox authoritative theological voices today... those who are well-known as acclaimed academics/ scholars as well as well-respected churchmen. For example, you could begin by trying to invite these well-known and acclaimed names (instead of so many self-appointed rogue internet Orthodox celebs): Fr. Andrew Louth, Fr. John Behr, Fr. John Anthony McGuckin, Fr. John Chrysavvgis, Fr. Cyril Hovorun, Fr. Maximos Constas, Fr. John Panteleimon Manoussakis, Fr. Alexis Torrance, Sr. Vassa Larin, Fr. John Erickson, EP Archbishop Job of Telmessos, OCA Archbishop Alexander Gorlitzin, Serbian Bishop Maxim Vasilevic, Prof. Paul Gravrilyuk, Fr. Brandon Gallaher etc etc.

[@HowDidiDo1998]

My wish (hope) is to see all Christian denominations coming together and worship our lord Jesus Christ. We all have different opinions on certain areas of the doctrine, but our basic theology (like trinity) is same... God bless Christians ❤️✝️❤️☦️🙏

[@easybeliever7]

If you were to die today, are you 100% sure that you are on your way to Heaven? : kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYe1hWV8e72hqsU

[@jl8138]

I've come to like Cameron through several interviews but unfortunately "Romish ambitions" and "Ortho-curiosity" have just become cynical content generating mechanisms for Evangelical KZbinrs at this point. Cameron likely already knows that becoming Orthodox would be tantamount to commiting "influencer suicide", so it'll never happen. There's a much better market for Catholic influencers on KZbin, though, so that option may still be on the table. I say this as an Orthodox Christian who nonetheless enjoys when people like Dr Vallier are given real estate like this to shine a light on Orthodoxy.

[@paulhallett1452]

He drops the accent when speaking among “peers”

[@MBarberfan4life]

Even if I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, I would still have Thomistic leanings.

[@KevinVallier]

I retain my Thomistic leanings!

[@TheRealRealOK]

@@KevinVallier Talk to Fr Dcn Ananias at Patristic Faith. He used to have some Thomistic leanings, but gave them up.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

You cant be orthodox any believing thomas Aquinas absolute divine simplicity

[@jonathanbohl]

Thanks! I thought Michael Lofton's response to this was charitable pushback from a Catholic perspective.

[@lesmen4]

There are many Eastern Catholic churches under Pope with their own autonomy, follow the same Easrern Orthodox way of liturgy. .

[@ItsThatGuy1989]

That’s the entire argument though. Whether the papacy is correct. Eastern Catholicism doesn’t fix that issue

[@lesmen4]

@@ItsThatGuy1989 It shows that Catholics are acceptable and inclusive without hurting the core belief. There are 23 churches with varied liturgy under its umbrella. .

[@cyriljorge986]

They also submit to every papal dogma. There's no inclusivity in such an evil scheme. Uniatism is digusting.

[@MangyPL]

lol

[@jacobwestern]

My wife grew up Serbian Orthodox, we were married in the church. You definitely need to go to the liturgy and experience it. While I don't believe all the things that Orthodoxy teaches I do find it very spiritual.

[@ionictheist349]

Dive deep into church history and orthodox theology

[@mythologicalmyth]

Chael Sonnen of theology!

[@jc1daddy2]

Cam try interviewing David Bentley Hart!

[@TheRealRealOK]

He’s a heretic.

[@jacobvashchenko7687]

Fr. Josiah Trenham ought to be the prettiest you invite to the show

[@MACHO_CHICO]

Way off topic but have you ever planned to do an in-person interview with Alvin Plantinga Cameron? I was just thinking how cool that would be.

[@tristancotton7222]

real philosophers have no time for people like Cameron

[@sneakysnake2330]

@@tristancotton7222 There are plenty of interviews on this channel with “real” philosophers. You must not have looked hard into this channels history.

[@MACHO_CHICO]

@@tristancotton7222 Swinburne was on hear lol

[@wet-read]

@@tristancotton7222 I of course am not a Christian and I do not like Christianity, but this channel, though obviously biased towards theism in general and Christianity specifically, does have good guests and content of many kinds.

[@a.b.4474]

Cameron talk to Josia Trenham great orthodox priest

[@CroElectroStile]

This guy missed the plot on what Catholics believe about the canon law and how it works, please bring Jimmy Akin because he is an expert in Canon Law so that he can correct him because there was a lot of misconceptions and misinformation in this stream

[@salahsedarous7616]

The role of the Female deaconess exists in the Greek and Coptic Orthodox

[@alexjurado6029]

We don’t have to imagine what reunion between east and west would look like…just look at the 23 different Eastern Churches that have come back into communion with Rome ever since the schism. That’s what it would look like. Pray for full reunion!

[@MrPeterFranc]

Unitism is disgusting

[@alexjurado6029]

@@MrPeterFranc can you please explain?

[@greekfreak5789]

@@alexjurado6029 kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqO2hmOXm8l3qNU

[@Player-re9mo]

@@alexjurado6029 A real reunion would have the pope renounce some Catholic doctrines, such as papal infallibility. The Catholics and Orthodox would also need to reconcile all the differences which occurred since the schism.

[@alexjurado6029]

@@Player-re9mo umm…did you even read my comment? 23 different Eastern Churches have come back into communion with Rome, and Rome didn’t have to renounce a single thing in order for that to happen. In fact, those Eastern Churches adopted Roman Catholic teachings, including all ecumenical councils from Nicaea I to Vatican II.

[@Lepewhi]

Isn't Cameron a Catholic now? Maybe I've confused him with someone else.

[@franklinpanakkal97]

I suggest one from coptic, one from syria, one from eastern church

[@doctorg.k.spoderminsr.2588]

Some reminders for any protestants thinking about converting to Eastern Orthodoxy (or Catholicism for that matter: 1) The grass is always greener on the other side. 2) Don't underestimate the power of smells and bells. Is God really there or are you having a pleasant sensory experience? (in fairness this also applies to protestant churches with emotional modern music). 3) Do not gloss over the huge theological differences between protestantism and the eastern church because the eastern liturgy satisfies your aesthetic desires. Theology matters.

[@George-ur8ow]

Theology certainly does matter. It's the precise reason I converted from being an Independent Baptist to Orthodoxy.

[@j.athanasius9832]

@@George-ur8ow That, dear brother, had to have been a traumatic conversion. Spencer Smith fan?

[@George-ur8ow]

@@j.athanasius9832 I have no idea who Spencer Smith is. The only "trauma" was the regret had in not converting to Orthodoxy sooner.

[@ryanscaggs1674]

@@George-ur8ow I'm currently independent Baptist, so reasons as to why you would convert to Eastern Orthodoxy ?

[@George-ur8ow]

@@ryanscaggs1674 thanks for your question. Not a light topic to discuss, certainly beyond the bounds responding in a youtube comment your question deserves. I recommend checking out "Rock and Sand" a 2 part video by former protestant pastor, and now Orthodox priest, Josiah Trenham. Last I checked it had a couple of hundred thousand views and details the reasons why he became Orthodox. Many of those reasons are the same as my own. Also videos from the founders of Campus Crusade for Christ, who all became Orthodox deacons or priests, or the founder of Jews for Jesus - who also is now an Orthodox priest. All have reasons similar to my own and to one another. God be with you.

[@jordand5732]

My understanding of burning heretics/coercing others to convert (catholic sharia) is that it was deemed wrong in the past and present and future by the majority of catholic believers, philosophers, and theologians. That’s been my research, but I’m open to hearing that that isn’t what others are finding.

[@Reclusive_gardener]

Father Josiah Trenham.....please....

[@anastasiaburr3959]

Because he knew not better!

[@Carlos-fl6ch]

The world is not so incredibly difficult to understand it's comparatively easy. It's like watching a movie. For example you look at what people do right. So they come to you and they tell you that you need to give them some of the money you earn for protection. And if you don't bad things will happen to you and yours. And you become scared because they keep threatening you. And they don't care what happens with the people you love. They kill them, they kidnap them, they rape them and they even use them to join in their activities and they become immensely rich and powerful by doing such. Everyone immediately knows that your talking about some kind of church or religious organizations

[@appieb.8883]

As an atheist I am a little bit disappointed. I thought he would gave a good reason as to why he became a theist again. Haven't heard any argument or reason.

[@TheRealRealOK]

It’s not always about arguments or reason. Many people convert because of personal experience. Encountering God isn’t about a good argument.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

We are all on a cross next to Jesus Christ if you get the point here! see how the two thieves act next to Jesus Christ!!! No one was realised from his Cross both die so painful but see the hope of the one... What you Choice ???

[@us3rG]

Your messing with orthodox, you on the right path

[@catholiccrusaderdeusvult9949]

Is this guy even a dr. He embarrassed himself. Michael lofton on reason and theology addressed this clowms gross misunderstanding of Catholicsm

[@hopefull61256]

Please bee charitable. You've explained nothing but merely called him names

[@MangyPL]

nice try, michael

[@aleksakovacevic3350]

Man you are even more far gone if u believe lofton is at all a good example of Catholicism

[@GuitarJesse7]

Cameron should go back and listen to this now that he is Roman Catholic. Hope he can see that the claims of the Papacy don’t hold, among other RC issues, and move to Orthodoxy instead. I don’t mean to be offensive to Roman Catholics, but sometimes the truth hurts. (I’m still evangelical btw, so it’s not like I’m just voting for my side. I’m weighing the facts and history as objectively as I can when I say it seems that Orthodoxy is more true to the ancient faith). Lord have mercy on us all as we seek to follow You.

[@metalheadhippie8738]

Begum Orthodox ☦️

[@truthseeker7867]

I like the part where he doesn’t actually give a reason for abandoning his atheistic view for theology other than “I met a guy who was a theological philosopher”.

[@Super_bus_machine]

And then just settled on a religion because it basically felt right to him. Someone could just make the same argument for another religion.

[@andrewmoon1917]

He talked about the arguments for God's existence that he found compelling later in the video.

[@Super_bus_machine]

@@andrewmoon1917 sounds like he wanted to believe anyways, and just uses these bad arguments to justify his belief.

[@JimBillyRayBob]

Why Orthodoxy? Because eventually you run out of rational intellectual arguments not to.

[@IronFreee]

You talk about having valid reasons to believe but never say what they are... He talks about feelings, is that it? Because he was convinced twice so he was at least wrong once. What convinced him there is a God? What made him think that version of God was the right one? Didn't he had the same feelings for both religions? And why did he became a non believer? What convinced him that there was no good reason to believe any god existed?

[@thebear194]

Don't forget about the western right orthodox churches. Orthodox churches that are western rite are churches that celebrate mass but hold the orthodox teachings. Don't honor the pope of Rome or the theology of Roman catholicism. plus priests can marry.

[@cyriljorge986]

Great angle, but an even better angle would be an Orthodox clergyman. They are our representatives, not academics.

[@ibelieveitcauseiseentit9630]

Because he's still blind and still doesn't understand the Gospel otherwise he would not have become Eastern Orthodox, or Catholic.

[@justin36004]

You mean the false gospel of Protestantism? Yeah I would avoid that at all costs.

[@paulhallett1452]

This prof is a smart dude - but he shows a.) his academic a priori view that his quasi-thoughts = acts of reason; and b.) he retains heretical protestant presuppositions as to the relationship of Christology and Ecclesiology; c.) he lacks even an elementary view of Canon law and the way the Magisterium works. There’s a transparent protestant American impulse to wretch on the bride that perhaps only a Southern Alabamian protestant could retain. Repent and believe! Jesus said Peter!

[@reality1958]

Without actual, verifiable, evidence that any god exists I simply cannot see any path to belief in a god(s). I lead an evidence based life…so I am compelled to the logic of evidence based thinking. David Hume said it best… “The wise man proportions his belief to the evidence”.

[@hegel5816]

What evidence...??? What is your definition of "evidence"...?? We don't share a common epistemic grounds so what you call "evidence" may not be applicable to me...

[@reality1958]

@@hegel5816 evidence that is observable and testable

[@reality1958]

@@TLrivers yes I observe that every day

[@MBarberfan4life]

What does that even mean?! A wise man defines their terms and justifies their claims.

[@sanjeevgig8918]

@@hegel5816 I hear you have "evidence" that a man rose from the dead after a day and a half. Please provide this evidence. Do NOT use the Bible as evidence. The Bible is the CLAIM that a man did that. LOL

[@forehead949]

Kevin is ok with female deaconesses? They need LESS of a teaching role in the church.

[@easybeliever7]

We have all sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. Whether we have lied, stolen, lusted, cheated, hated someone, lost our temper, used bad language or God’s name in vain, gotten drunk, done drugs, etc. We all deserve to be punished in Hell because of our sins. As a result of our sins, we have stored up a spiritual debt for ourselves. Unless someone else pays off this debt for us, we will pay it off ourselves in Hell. But thank God, that He sent His Son Jesus Christ, to live a perfectly sinless life, fulfilling the law and obeying God’s commandments perfectly, in our place, and He was tortured, and crucified on a cross to take the punishment for our sins. We broke God’s moral law, Jesus Christ paid the fine, the spiritual debt that we owed for breaking God’s law. Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried in a tomb and He rose again from the dead on the third day. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but has everlasting life. When you repent and believe The Gospel, this Good News about Jesus Christ, you become saved and sealed with The Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Nobody can snatch us out of The Father’s hand. We are saved by the grace of God, through our faith in Jesus Christ, not by any of our good works, including obeying God’s commandments or loving God completely. We fail at that every day. We are justified by our faith in Jesus Christ.

[@sanjeevgig8918]

REAL Title : Methodist born guy became a Southern Baptist guy - dabbled as an Atheist - Now has become an Eastern Orthodox guy. BUT, that won't bring in the clicks and the hallelujahs. LOL

[@apracity7672]

I havent watched the video yet, but that almost sounds like a no true Scotsman fallacy. An atheist is someone who rejects God's existence. It doesnt matter whether they have believed this since birth or used to believe in God prior to becoming an atheist!

[@sanjeevgig8918]

@@apracity7672 There is a material difference between someone raised a Xtian from 0 to 18 and then becoming an Atheist and then RETURNING to Xtianity versus someone raised in a non-religious environment becoming a Xtian as an adult. The first one is a Return (to roots) while the second one is a Conversion. Won't you agree ??

[@Player-re9mo]

@@sanjeevgig8918 I would see it as reconversion. The process is similar for both a former Christian and an Atheist.

[@apracity7672]

@@sanjeevgig8918 Being raised in a Christian environment doesnt make you "less" of an atheist when you start rejecting God. You're talking about an entirely different thing when you talk about the merits of someone being raised in a Christian home vs a non-Christian home, etc.

[@sanjeevgig8918]

@@apracity7672 He was a Xtian for YEARS and YEARS; then an Atheist for a short while; and now, Viola, he is a Xtian all over AGAIN. Praise the Lord. I see you trying to dishonestly sneak in the "Atheist reject god" talking point. I don't have time to waste with you. Later. LOL

[@OrthoNektarios]

Cameron, just focus on the gospel. Every church May look beautiful and nice and draws you and I agree it does that to me as well. But, what about the gospel? If Greek Orthodox or Catholics or Lutherans or if any denomination is teaching a false Gospel then you have a false church. It’s that simple.

[@jpnoobieeiboonpj858]

I say this in loving fashion- I'm here and enjoyed the interview. I have love for these guys...BUT I must say that when listening to the hyper analyzing of MAN'S rules and opinions, I can't help but picture Jesus rolling his eyes at us with a grin as we always focus on things He would say there is little to no edification in. I see the denominations as very simply put with : 1 God , 1 Word of God with or without apocryphal books that through His providence has and will continue to be available until the end. I feel that the only thing worth discussing is interpretation of scripture and every single thing we discuss with the lost to plant seeds. The traditions and religious adornment are way off the map He has left for us.