Why this British operator is GETTING RID of its Brand-New Trains

[@Thom-TRA]

I've heard rumors the trains might go to Chiltern Railways. Does anybody know more?

[@Cydonius1701]

I hope not, for Chiltern's sake. They do already run Class 68s albeit with Mark 3s, they're the only other UK passenger TOC to use them. So yes, they already have drivers rated on the class and it's not like anyone's making new Mark 3 stock. But their Class 68s use AAR couplers (because the Mark 3s do), while the Mark 5a coaches are fixed rakes with bar couplers internally and AFAIK buffer and screw-link at the ends. So they couldn't just start using them, even if Chiltern had had their heads buried in the sand and weren't aware of the 5a's issues. No solid info at present though, sorry!

[@lordsplonge8147]

Well, unless things have changed since I retired from Chiltern last year then yes they have got their heads buried in the sand.

[@79MBO]

@@Cydonius1701 just for info, the Chiltern Mk 3’s are buckeye couplings in between the coaches, but screw link between the coach and the locomotive so the class 68 could could be physically coupled to a rake of Mk 5’s however, there are electrical and control differences between the Chiltern 68’s and the TPE 68‘s so if Chiltern were to take on the Mk 5’s then they would also need the TPE class 68’s to go with them.

[@EdgyNumber1]

​​@@physiocrat7143Under this current, corrupt, thieving, bats××t crazy, Tory 'government,' I can see how this can be a bit of a nightmare.

[@vicsams4431]

@ Cydonius. The Mark 3 is fitted with buckeye and screw couplings. Even if the Mark 5 was not, fitting a screw coupling is not prohibitive on cost of technical grounds if a future operator wanted to modify them.

[@cedarcam]

I rather liked these trains for their quiet running with no engines under the floor but the locos are very loud which did make local residents near the depot unhappy, but that is not the main reason for withdrawing them, I was told they will possibly be scrapped because of a serious problem of cracks which are very hard to repair so the cost of rebuilding will be higher than economically viable. These and other trains recently bought from other countries are all having similar problems so to me it is our old twisting lines that are probably the cause, The Trans Pennine route has a lot of tight curves and changes of gradient unlike where the trains were built and tested. The coaches are very long, every time they go into a curve the track is canted so as the leading end of the coach is on canted track the rear is on level track twisting the body. There have been no problems with their older German built shorter coaches which are more heavily built just these new light weight vehicles we have been getting. It is just my theory on why the new trains are having so many problems.

[@rthoc71]

Very sensible answer shows u understand fleet flaws and route gradients well. Siemens in building 185 at Krefeld properly tested 185 on very hilly route from Cologne HBF to Trier HBF through Eifel area of western Germany this like TPE route gradients and twisted curve routes at 2250bhp 3 car sets extremely quick to Accelerate. Same power as single HST power car Siemens did their homework properly researched route operating on which was reason Eifel route was chosen as almost like TPE. Spanish on other hand as we all know didn't test trains out on anything similar routes in Spain or France. The Class 221 Voyager Fleet Bombardier at time tested on twisty route from Limoges to Toulouse through Dordogne area France make sure units fit for UK terrain.

[@lzh4950]

The train car's suspension should've been able to compensate for this without having to twist the car's body

[@rthoc71]

@@lzh4950 because absolutely no proper rail time testing done on similar gradient route in Spain any flaws hard iron out. Main issue in Spain lot lines near factory are broad guage wider than the guage in uk result can't be tested prior to delivery in uk. Bogie frames very small like the ones under Voyager 220 fleet. Unlike Siemens 185 very thick substantial bogies giving solid comfort ride

[@cedarcam]

@@rthoc71 You can tell the difference between the solid built older trans we have. The 185 is a very robust design. The new CAF units we have are also having a lot of problems and riding on those you notice they are not so solidly built. I had missed your earlier reply, Interesting that the 185 was tested on a similar route to where they would be in service. Track forces are the same as a class 37 on the 185 which shows how sturdy they are. They wanted to increase the line speed between Darlington and York and it was then we found out about the track force which limited where the line speed could be increased. I think those and the 158 are still the best units we have for comfort.

[@fuzzwork]

I rode the Nova 3 just before the pandemic and found it quite comfortable. I understand the issue is related to frame cracks in the coaches and not the locomotive.

[@Confusedadult87]

The same issue happened with the 801's so they had to pull them all one by one to check them. Makes you wonder if it is a design flaw given they are all a similar design.

[@butikimbo9595]

High noise levels and overpower among the almost impossibility of finding compatible diesel locomotives to haul such type of Push-Pull formations, for sure are locomotive issues though.

[@RailpaxScott]

In 1983, I rode BritRail all over the system for a week. It was reliable, fast, and I left with a very high regard for British Rail. Loved the Intercity 125 !

[@trevormillar1576]

Since then Thatcher privatised the whole network and the whole thing has gone to hell in a handcart.

[@borderlands6606]

It was good to see diesel locomotive haulage after so many years of multiple units, so it's sad the Class 68 hasn't worked out. Commuter trains on these routes used to be long consists including breakfast facilities. Then companies moved to short trains with standing room only in busy periods, at the same time commuter rail use increased exponentially. People complain about British Rail, but at least they ran a service. TransPennine cancel services with no accountability.

[@anthonywarrener1881]

Well done for your very clear description of the fiasco surrounding the Nova 3 trains of Trans Pennine Express. The train sets have been incredibly unreliable, and whilst the Class 68 locomotives perform well, there have been endless problems with the various systems that link the locomotive with the coaches. There are continuing rumours that the owning company of these trains will soon find another operator to take them on. It is such a shame, for the principal of locos operating in lush - pull mode with Inter City coaches is well proven - just look at Amtrak !

[@Thom-TRA]

Not to forget the railjet that inspired the upcoming Airos!

[@anthonywarrener1881]

@@Thom-TRA Indeed, the OBB RailJet is my favourite European long distance train !

[@bozzalewis8399]

Even the class 91 and it’s intercity 225 sets still provide exemplary service and comfort. The nova 3 sets have apparently been found to have cracks in the mk5 carriages and just are so poor they can’t operate anymore

[@ianburnley6873]

The UK is largely a unit based railway now and the use of cumbersome loco hauled trains makes no real sense. The fact that these trains exist is partially the fault of the original franchise specification by the DFT. While CAF is Spanish for crap LNER take note, oh dear seems it's too late on that front.

[@emily1]

@@ianburnley6873 CAF is hardly Spanish for crap and there is no amount of cope that can deny the fact that this is a epic fail in a long list of trains produced and still running today. Even the 195s and 331s were solely a extension of a wider family under 'civity' which have been going in places like the Netherlands and Italy for years Best trains I've ever been on was a NIR Class 4000 and a Northern 331. The acceleration and comfort is so good.

[@Soj_89]

Of course you had the theme music from the Great British Bake Off

[@Thom-TRA]

I had to find an unmistakably British melody without colonial connotations lol

[@djwarren5081]

I travel from Huddersfield to Manchester regularly with TPExpress. Most trains actually arrive, very rarely ontime. Shame about the Class 68's. They make a fantastic noise that not everyone appreciates.

[@domtweed7323]

I do the Dewsbury-Leeds route. We had mass cancellations a few months back, regularly 2 trains cancelled in a row. I heard it's because Transpennine didn't hire/train enough drivers.

[@kevanhubbard9673]

The class 68 locomotives were too stentorian for the liking of those that live near the depots but I haven't noticed them being any noiser than any other modern diesel trains.The problem is without the 68 hauled trains TPE will be back to using the cruelly overcrowded 185's as 3 car sets (really 2 and a 1/4 when you take out 1st class and the toilets,etc).At the moment the 185's seem to be doubled up up it'll be back to how it was since those awful 185's came out!

[@mattevans4377]

Shame they probably won't refurbished them to standard only. That would at least help a little.

[@neiltonks4627]

I read that it won’t make much difference in terms of stock availability for TP as these things are so unreliable they’ve only been timetabling for a handful of them being available anyway.

[@haroldhorseposture9435]

Typical . Just when things looked up a bit, with new loco-hauled services , this hapens. The 68's aren't loud, in fact quieter than previous generations of traction , it's just a sign o' the times , snowflakes buy a house near a railway -which has been there for well over a hundred years and was there first - then don't like that they can hear trains. Not long ago , we had type 4's and 8 or 9 coaches on the pennine jobs , a frequent service , and no overcrowding. Nobody complained about the noise then . Personally , I'd rather hear the 68's , as I live fairly close to the line thru' Ashton , and they do have a 'Delticy' note to them. Another aspect is that a lot of their current drivers have little or no loco experience , so may not operate them to best advantage. We do seem to have thrown our lot in with multiple units in this country. One of the reasons I packed in with what was to shortly become TPE, was this lack of loco work , and the cabs of the units then in use were unfit to keep pigs in , let alone a normally sized and shaped human. That and the excessive Sunday working and the company culture of 'do as yer told' , bits of kids in lower management jobs , very little hours on the clock , telling you how to do your job. A hateful environment . So....it looks like more overcrowding on fewer trains , again , and an effective deterrent to rail travel . With the noise thing , here's a tale ; there was once a major freight line from Manchester , thru' Stockport , forming part of a busy trans-Pennine route. It was closed in the early 80's , but there was a stone terminal close to the the commencement of the closed section . This terminal subsequently became busy , and as freight in this country mostly moves at night , when there's hardly any passenger movements , you can likely guess what happens next. Some times there were 2 stone trains a day here, but always the early one , which had a booking-on time of 01.22. Whilst the line was closed and stone traffic not much in evidence, a retired couple were sold a plot on which to build a bungalow. Then the traffic increased. Cue much snivelling . complaining and threats . We even had the owner come out in the wee hours to give us a mouthfull , and 'request' we buggered off. These complaints were , for a time , taken seriuosly, we had to jump thru' all manner of hoops, and endure lots of very inconvenient procedures adding time to the job. Not to mention shutting the engine down all the time , between moves. Not going to happen on my watch , Bub! You need the engine to keep the heaters on in winter, keep the air up , and the brakes on , as otherwise you'd have to apply ALL the wagon handbrakes each time you stopped , as the siding is on a severe falling gradient , and the buffer stop wouldn't hols a runaway, it was next stop Morrison's supermarket , which had been built right behind and above said block .I never took any notice of these ridiculous hoops, just stuck to the working instructions as they'd always been . What annoyed me most was the way the complainants were given every appeasement possible. That's how it goes these days. it seems.

[@davidgriffiths464]

The class 185's in their current configuration are just not fit for purpose .. They should be at least 4 car .. but the budget and leasing charges did not allow for that . Basically a good train, but not enough coaches.

[@sammymarrco47]

I kind of now understand why British people complain about their trains, even tho as an American it seems like they have nothing to complain about, their trains go everywhere!

[@DS-cf1zc]

They go everywhere occasionally. I use trains everyday and couldn't tell you what type of service I will get tomorrow. Its also very expensive too.

[@JohnBurnet1]

Our trains used to go everywhere until Dr Richard Beeching as the Chairman of the British Railways Board wielded his axe, closing thousands of miles of railway and stations in the 1960s. Our public transport is expensive and unreliable.

[@jerryn9496]

Assuming they aren't on strike.

[@vicsams4431]

Lord Dr Richard Beeching did more damage to our railways than Goering's Luftwaffe. Plus he could not even add up. He only took into account the revenue generated by stations along the route, but he failed to include revenue from the mainline to the branchline. For example, you might not get many tickets sold at seaside resorts, but you might get hundreds of tickets sold in the city to the seaside.

[@Bungle-UK]

@@JohnBurnet1He didn’t close anything, the government did….indeed the majority of closures took place under a Labour government, well after Mr Beeching had moved on.

[@FreezeDriedGirolles]

I use TPE on a semi-regular basis. Only ever gotten on one Nova 3 set; it sat at the platform for 20 minutes then got cancelled because of an electrical issue. I love loco-hauled services, but... yeah, if that's par for the course, I can see why they're being withdrawn.

[@michaelstansfield3085]

On my recent visit to the uk, I frequently travelled on TP trains. I wondered why so many were parked up at Scarborough, Milton and various other places. Thank you for explaining this. Shame as a loco hauled train is awesome. Nothing beats my beloved A3 Greeley Pacifica though.

[@ap_red]

I only got a chance to use the Nova 3 sets a couple times, mainly on trips to Scarborough (pronounced more Scar-bruh): as a passenger I really liked how quiet they were compared to other trains, which are almost entirely Multiple-Units. Then again, I suspect I'd be hating the 3s if I'd had to rely on TPE for commuting.

[@andrewhotston983]

I'm a Brit who visited Austria recently and wondered how they can get the push-pull concept to work, even combining sets for part journeys,, while British train operators struggle with anything other than multiple units.

[@paulspencer1590]

We haven't always struggled with push-pulls. As long ago as 1967 BR came up with the brilliant concept of a 4-REP propelling a pair of 4-TCs from Waterloo to Bournemouth where a 33 would couple up to the leading TC, pull it to Weymouth and push it back to Bournemouth to couple up to another TC/REP combo. This worked faultlessly for over 2 decades. And going back further in time the GWR autotrains provided outstanding service on many branch lines.

[@that1niceguy246]

Because we do trains differently. The ÖBB have been around for much longer than the British franchising system has, so we had a long time to refine. We also have a very streamlined fleet compared to you guys' system, which you probably saw when you came here which may make the process easier! Most freight and anything from passenger services to high speed trains are pulled by 1016, 1116, 1216 classes, most others with 1044 and 1144 (the former now rebuilt into the latter). And with regard to multiple units, mainly 4023, 4024, 4124 and the lately 4746, 4748 and around the northeast the 4020. With diesel, the 2016 as well as the 5047 and 5022 are used nowadays. Also, as Mr. Spencer pointed out in his comment, the British have not always struggled with this, in fact i would bet with how long they utilised steam engines, they must've been able to pull this off well.

[@markhill4932]

you obviously never saw the west coast main

[@edrose5045]

I dunno, the HST had a pretty good run

[@justandy333]

The HST was one of the most reliable Diesel Push Pull setups. They were brought into service around 1976 and although most have now been withdrawn, A few sets still operate with the Scot rail group. So thats service life of about 45 - 47 years for the main franchisees. Still ongoing in Scotland. So I'd say they were very successful. You felt a genuine pang of sadness when these were withdrawn, people had grown up with these awesome machines and grown attached to them. I'm glad preservation groups have snapped a few up!

[@Andrewjg_89]

And it’s been confirmed today that CAF will manufacture at least 10 new Tri-mode Civity units for LNER that will work alongside with the Class 800 and Class 801 IETs that were built by Hitachi. And to replace the Class 91 Mk4 “Electra” (Intercity225) rolling stocks.

[@Thom-TRA]

I just saw that!

[@kieranstravels]

Was that Liverpool Lime Street and Warrington Central I see in that teaser 👀 In all seriousness, first of all, Hopefully you had a great time here in the Uk :) Second of all though, The Nova 3s actually also ran that very line (The line I happen to call home) until earlier this year. They originally ran Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough services, that then over covid got cut back more and more, until only one a day came here - They then tried to re deploy a single set to Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes services, which after only about 6 months of working them on a rare basis, were sent back to what they do now, Manchester to Scarborough (Or most of the time, just York to Scarborough). It's honestly not down to the locomotives - 68s are extremely reliable, it's down to the CAF MK5s quite frankly, being the worst rolling stock ever built for the UK market. Great video.

[@rthoc71]

For those not familiar sound issues when 68 is cranked up at around 4am on morning in Scarborough u can hear full bore of 3,800bph engine anywhere in Scarborough that loud. Class 67 locos built same factory in Valencia at time by Alstom all have Silencer fitted so u do not get full bore of EMD 710 series engine, Stadler chose not fit silencer been costly mistake for their popularity. Had 68 design actually allowed silencer be fitted as is Standard on all Class 66 & 67 Locomotives they likely not be withdrawn. Other issue remember certain areas have Noise abatement laws or bye laws governing excessive noise output the 68 not suited to running passenger service better off running Hybrid mode with the Class 88 locos. DRS use class 68 & 88 paired together power of 3,800bph 68 engines boosts the 5,400Bhp of electric 88 locos 9,200bhp making very heavy container trains a breeze very quick acceleration get out of passenger train path. If Class 67 was able pair with the Mk5 then wouldn't be an issue on noise, some internal carriage noises this comes from Design Flaw CAF did not install rubber mat Dampening under full length carriages same reason u hear lot wheels noise in Caledonian sleeper stock as well TPE Nova 3. Siemens built 185 Desiro they have full length rubber mat built in to design virtually eliminate engines noise within 185 units. Hitachi did exactly same with 800 series trains

[@twn6503]

I once had a 45 minute train journey take 7 hours because of one of those nova 3 trains, one with the nameplate Felix. broke down 10 mins after leaving Manchester Piccadilly en route for Leeds.

[@Thom-TRA]

That’s impressive. I had that on Amtrak once but that was because some lady drove her car onto the tracks. Worst Christmas ever.

[@paulthompson8613]

Nightmare I just hope you had a seat

[@stanmarsh14]

Ahh Felix (& Cole..... Yes I have a thing for cats!). I often end up at or going through Huddersfield.

[@twn6503]

@@paulthompson8613 luckily me and my partner had seats, right on the sun at the height of summer though, got very hot very quick

[@jbbumpkin]

@@stanmarsh14 Huddersfield station is where Felix the cat and her apprentice Bolt are the station`s feline pest controllers!

[@rs8382]

As I see it, there are 2 options for these units. 1. They get taken by Chiltern Railways to both suplimet/replace the Mk3 + DVT sets and operate express services between London and Birmingham. 2. A start-up open access operator called Grand Union is looking for rolling stock to operate cross country styles services between Cardiff and Edinburgh. So, who knows? There could be a home for these sets somewhere.

[@Thom-TRA]

Appreciate the perspective!

[@DigitalDiabloUK]

It makes sense for the locos to go to Chiltern already operate class 68 and the turbostars are starting to look very tatty for long distance services.

[@DubStu]

Scotrail are also looking for an HST replacement but their prior relationship with CAF might scupper that idea…

[@Trainhub2450alt]

grand central is getting new voyagers from avanti cos they voyagers are being replaced with 805s and 807s

[@LondonEmergency999]

@@DigitalDiabloUK That wont happen because the 68s are going back to DRS who want to use them for freight traffic.

[@transitcaptain]

You played Great British Bake-Off music! Wow brings me back to when I would watch the show….

[@davidpeters6536]

Wow, my home town is on the map! It became the end of the very first passenger train service which opened in 1825 (S&DR), when the station opened in 1861. Yes, the first "End of the Line." I realize there will be other railways that were completed sooner, but none were started earlier.

[@mjc8281]

My colleague at work times is walk to one of the platforms at Manchester Piccadilly to the cancellation notice for a TPE service that hasn't run in months, his Northern service runs like 5 mins afterwards!

[@LennixAlexander]

I've been told from other people that the mk5 coaches built for transpennine are so poor in terms of build quality that they simply couldn't be rectified... I suspect they will probably be scrapped in the near future? This isn't the first time this has happened in the UK As for the class 68s, they will probably return to their owner - Freight operator Direct Rail Services like after ScotRail no longer needed their class 68s

[@Thom-TRA]

I've been telling my friends in Chicago that a freight locomotive in front of passenger cars is not the best idea ever...

[@adam200784]

Yes your correct as a family member had dealings with them. Its was to do with the couplings not being level putting additional stress onto the units. Locos are going back to DRS. The Loco's are heavy on fuel & tanks arent big enough.

[@thunderK5]

@@Thom-TRATrue, many such trains make too much smoke and their lack of streamlining makes them slower and worse looking.

[@LennixAlexander]

@@adam200784 Yes it was the couplings! Someone I know works for transpeninne and told me about this a long time ago. I remember Scotrail had the same issue with the class 68s putting too much stress on the MK2 coaches

[@Thom-TRA]

@@physiocrat7143 passenger trains are much lighter than freight trains. This, freight locomotives are made to different specifications. More horsepower, more axles, more weight. Higher frequency compared to freight means more damage to tracks.

[@EM-yk1dw]

If the Mk5s go to Chiltern the old north south divide row would resurface. Chiltern need a universal fleet of DMUs or some sort of hybrid unit.

[@yumenekotrain]

Nice double decker train. I subscribed to the channel. 😸👍

[@Thom-TRA]

Thank you!

[@craigdoran6811]

I wish an operator would start up a birmingham to norwich service again, these would be ideal

[@LeeCorne]

Manchester Piccadilly and the legendary platforms 12 & 13 that are so far away from the main station building, they have travellators to ease the long walk! 😁

[@Thom-TRA]

Why make one long distance trip when you can make two for the price of one?

[@rthoc71]

Hitachi 802 when they were on accumulation mileage when freshly built York to Scarborough was regular outing for units stretch their legs on Diesel power. So having 802 run to Scarborough from December along with 185 fleet makes more sense, in TPE services now suppose run 2 trains an hour to Newcastle one of the 2 is so often cancelled each hour so no great shame reduction of service to one per hour in new timetable so at least TPE can concentrate making that one train run to timetable not leave customers high n dry no services as all too often happens now. This stems issues on their core route which is "York to Manchester" anything outside this core route no guarantee running. May help TPE concentrate actually providing trains instead buses overnight trains again, like Thames link that runs virtually 24hrs Bedford to Brighton through Central London, TPE has for 18 Years operating York to Manchester Airport 24hours a day only 2 points in Northern England can boast 24hrs rail services.

[@kr46428]

Looking forward to seeing more of Bear from the UK! Probably will be visiting there myself sometime in the next year and riding quite a lot on the rail network throughout Britain, so great timing.

[@Thom-TRA]

We've got three videos lined up!

[@WhiffTheRubbishEngine1869]

I hope that anyone other than Dapol makes a 00 model even though they’re getting cut

[@yixnorb5971]

In Chicago the Rock Island commuter line was running 1926 cars in the late 70s.

[@rockerjim8045]

Today some trams in Turin are pre WW2. The Bogies and Motors are a bit younger thou

[@miniroll32]

These trains are LOUD. It is fun hearing them within a station, though!

[@vincentcalvelli6452]

Interesting video Thom. I am looking to see more of your collaboration with you brother Bear.

[@timbounds7190]

Well, the new nationalised version of TPE seem to be making as much of a hash of running the trains as the previous version! No problem in running the services without the Nova3s as they are cutting back the number of trains on the busy routes! I never got to ride a Nova3 as they never even made it to the line I live on like they were supposed to, but I'm sure they were nice - better than the crowded Cl185s anyway! But the Nova3s were an absurd use for the Cl 68 locos - trundling around pulling a small number of carriages around at pedestrian TPE speeds! Also the Cl68s are utterly deafening - they caused huge numbers of complaints about noise wherever they were in service - and TPE had to move them around trying to find diagrams they could work without causing hassle.

[@paulhill1665]

The running of UK railways is complex, the infrastructure is owned by network rail, a not for profit company, the services are run by the franchise holder, but the actual trains are owning by leasing companies, it makes for a very inefficient system, i.e. expensive.

[@Thom-TRA]

Seems like a lot of parties with a seat at the table

[@dominustaker1651]

Another example of a train that has gone out of service too soon is the class 379 operated by greater anglia. They were built by bombadier between 2010 and 2011 when they were put into use. 12 years on and they are nowhere to be seen on the west anglia or great eastern main lines. This is most likely due to new trains such as the 720 and the 755 taking up spaces that otherwise the 379 would have been using.

[@ck4426]

Awesome video and it’s awesome that Bear will make some videos!!!

[@buzzukfiftythree]

From what I’ve read from many sources (though, in fairness, not yet experienced myself), the Class 800s and the Nova 3s (which are similar) are pretty uncomfortable for longer distance journeys. Yet GWR, Cross Country LNER etc. are getting rid of the far more comfortable (but much older) Mk3 and Mk4 carriages which are far better for long-haul. What has gone wrong with UK train design?

[@fredsiddaway9004]

The Government?

[@Thom-TRA]

I think it is whoever manufactures the seats because the trains themselves are of Japanese build and good quality

[@Badge2812]

It's not so much an issue of what's gone wrong. I'd hazard a guess that the withdrawal of older units from service is largely due to ever increasing operating costs of older rolling stock such as the 125s and 225s. From a purely maintenance perspective I'd take a guess that the costs are higher, and that's without talking about the fact that it doesn't pay to train staff of rolling stock which will be removed from service sooner rather than later. Plus there are safety concerns with certain older sets which TOCs probably don't want to risk ending up in the middle of, should something go wrong.

[@mattevans4377]

​@@Badge2812That doesn't explain why brand new units have suspension made of granite, and seats made of ironing boards.

[@DynamicalisBlue]

@@Thom-TRA They are Japanese trains and are of good quality but they were actually designed for short-distances, yet the UK is using them as a long-distance train. Liverpool to Newcastle? Manchester to Edinburgh? York to London? Here's my guess: The UK doesn't design its own trains anymore so they get them from other countries but since we're not in the 1800s anymore, these countries only design long-distance trains for high-speed rail. The UK doesn't want to waste money on a high-speed train since it's useless on the UK network, so they instead opt for one of their short-distance trains, which are more than suitable for UK's aging rail infrastructure but comes at the cost of comfort.

[@vicsams4431]

Sadly, much as I like the Class 68 + Mark 5, a loco hauled train burns more fuel than a multiple unit, albeit the 185 drinks like a fish with three large engines per set. Operationally, some routes e.g. are listed as fragile track, and have SP differential speeds for light axle weight trains. This effects York to Scarborough where the linespeed is 45 over 90 SP. Here RA1 trains like the older 158 can operate at 90 mph, whilst the RA5 Class 185 and the RA7 Class 68 locos are restricted to 45 mph. This causes timetabling issues. It is also alleged that some residents in Scarborough have complained about the noise and exhaust (obviously idiots unaware they bought a house that adjoins the railway and back in the 1980s Classes 45 and 47 locos used to run round in Scarborough).

[@james123212]

to be fair to the Scarborough residents, they could well have moved in at a time after trains such as the 47 and had long since been withdrawn and are accustomed to the comparatively quieter Multiple units , yes they should have a certain expectation for noise pollution near a railway line/depot but on the other hand you also have to be reasonable, if you suddenly had a significantly running the line you would notice and rightly complain if its causing you constant disturbance, also not everyone has a choice of where they live if the only property available is next to a railway line you kind of have to live with it

[@vicsams4431]

That is not being unreasonable. The railway is within its rights to change motive power at any time they like. What are you suggesting ? That before changing motive power, the railway gets permission from every resident ? That would be unreasonable. No one forced these people to buy a house near a railway. 100% their fault. No sympathy whatsoever !

[@markb4772]

I did some work in MID while CAF were doing T&C on the mark 5a’s, they run them at high revs to maintain a certain voltage, the level that they rev them to makes them very noisy ( especially inside the depot ). I think a lot of the problem for Scarborough residents is not so much the trains passing by, but that there is a depot just outside the centre. I was staying in a B&B for work about half a mile away from the depot and the sound really carried across from the depot, who also seemed to be running them at high revs, and they are running them like this late at night. This maybe explains the situation?

[@vicsams4431]

I am aware the body profile of the Class 68 meant they were unable to fit a silencer and an environmental scrubber to the exhaust. So they only fitted the scrubber. Whilst it is nice they care about the environment, the fact they care less about industrial deafness is worrying. The point is any TOC could cascade or introduce any traction to that route. They have no obligation to consult residents, who are free not to buy property next to railway lines if they prefer.

[@FlightAndTrack]

Great vid bro! Awesome work! I can't eait for the next vid.

[@markjames1713]

i think a few years ago there was a whole fleet that was replaced before it had even finished delivering the fleet as it was cheaper to get new trains than to use the ones still being built lol

[@denbaker7358]

The Northern transpennine livery looks great on almost any train

[@spiritofcantaolisboa-p8871]

Shortege of train drivers and lack of interest to fix their "CRACKING GOOD PERFORMANCE..." are the reasons behind such fleet withraw, when the idea to bring back Loco Hauled services has gained popularity in Central Europe, where by the way this type of train formations were never abandoned in the first place compared to UK mass Multiple Units investment in the 1990s, proving not capable to respond to high capacity demand. Hpe it helps and thank you for sharing the video.

[@EdgyNumber1]

*VERY strange.* From what I gather, the Class 68 locomotive units work admirably on the Chiltern Mainline, for my favourite TOC, Chiltern Railways. Is Transpennine's problems with the CAF Mk5A coaches? Stadler's unit tend to be pretty good.

[@DubStu]

Mainly the coaches, but lack of driver training is what’s seen them off.

[@james123212]

Mk5A are the main issue, Poor build quality, unreliable and horrendously overcomplicated for what they are (they're pretty much the same as Class 397 vehicles Minus the traction equipment), they also suffer from software problems and have compatibility issues with the Class 68

[@willthompson656]

Kinda relived about the Nova 3s, the line to Middlesbrough the old trains are more spacious.

[@stanmarsh14]

I'm near East Midlands Airport (Long Eaton, Derbyshire.... So EMR and Cross Country are the local TOCs here), however I end up in Yorkshire (South and West) quite a lot, so along with the two mentioned East Midlands TOC's, I also happen to come across Northern and LNER (East Coast), plus TPE as mentioned in this video. First Group running TPE, it was an absolute dogs dinner, and especially when I head more into Eastern Yorkshire / Humberside, the service was nothing short of diabolical with TPE. I have been on all of TPE's units, especially the 185 Desiro's (For note, EMR runs the electric versions of these on their Corby > London St Pancras route), and strangely, quite like the Desiro. The Nova's however, not as keen on them (Especially the 3's), especially if you end up with the "Ironing Board" style seats, as often found on the Hitachi IET's (80x series. EMR are getting the 810's very soon, on their East Midlands > London route, though the seating seams to be improved thankfully!) and the CAF's Northern has. Also the on board facilities are not that great.

[@LaviDzine]

Weird seeing Alstom's Manchester Traincare Centre from the main line - worked there for over 20 years :)

[@Thom-TRA]

How was it working there?

[@EpicThe112]

Looks like I can recognize some of them because they are featured in train simulators made by Dovetail games starting with Class 150/2 158 156 155 153 Sprinters 390 WCML South Birmingham New Street to London Euston via Elmdon Airport. For the Nova 3s perhaps they should be rebuilt and then pair them up to Class 99s for Northern Transpennine Huddersfield line trips to York from Manchester Victoria instead of the Calder Valley Line.

[@benstrainsandthings]

I've already seen the TPEclass 68s running the Tyne valley-Middlesbrough circuit for RHTT'S after some being handed over to DRS

[@MrTransportAddict]

It would be really nice to see the Nova 3’s head over to Greater Angila to run alongside the 745’s on the Liverpool Street - Norwich line..

[@Thom-TRA]

That’s another great livery

[@vicsams4431]

With a Class 88 electric traction ?

[@jonjohnson2844]

It was always the plan to move this on once the class 800s entered service

[@Thom-TRA]

That can't be true since the Nova 1 is older than the Nova 3

[@tonedeafjd]

I'm pretty sure the Class 68s are already getting used for other duties by direct rail services, lots of videos on KZbin with them running around with various consists or alone.

[@james123212]

68s were orignally procured by DRS to replace some of their older locos, them being subleased to Chiltern and TPE came later.

[@audigex]

At least one nice thing about the Nova 3 is that the Class 68 locomotives can just migrate over to freight services if the rest of the units sit idle...

[@skzmudhan]

Lovely Manchester Piccadilly

[@stuartmiller7419]

EXCELLENT news. These are VERY LOUD locos and their noise pollution has been an absolute joke since their introduction. We live next to the Leeds/Manchester line, in a quiet area, and every time one of these hellish things powers up the hill at high speed and passes us, it's like being slapped on the ears. You even have to close windows in order to be able to concentrate. It was idiotic to replace the previous trains (never been a noise issue in 30 YEARS) with these. I'm glad they have failed but I pity who gets them next.

[@justmeajah]

Can't wait for Bear Goes British 🥰

[@redriverwave]

Get on the ‘horn’ VIA Rail!! Y’all have nothin’ to lose…😂

[@Thom-TRA]

Haha that's a good idea honestly

[@transportationuk7656]

The “ex Nova 3s” could go to Northern and run on the Sheffield-Scarborough route. Then the current Class 170s could go on to the “Leeds Express” Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham/Lincoln Central service and the 195s could go on to replace the Class 150s.

[@AutumnBosco]

Ohhhh I’m very excited for videos of you going around the UK!!

[@Thom-TRA]

It will be my brother, not me

[@AutumnBosco]

@@Thom-TRA oh I thought I heard your voice in the clip at the end 🙈 I’m sure it will still be a fantastic series! :)

[@Thom-TRA]

@@AutumnBosco you’re not the first to confuse us lol

[@jamie514]

I thought the Mk V Coaches were fairly reliable; I thought the same pairing of Stadler locos and Mk V stock were chosen for re-equipping some of the long distance overnight sleeper trains from London to Scotland and or Wales.

[@michaeld5888]

Will these be dumped on the backwater maximum 100 mph Great Eastern lines like any other redundant rolling stock as with the Class 86 and class 90's?

[@MeTube3]

The TPE route is very beautiful.

[@ForburyLion]

Unless an operator needs capacity right now, they will lease based on what is best in terms of reliability, running and lease costs. In the days of BR they would redeploy stock because that was cheaper, but since this stock is owned by a 3rd party it's not their problem. Same reason South Western Railways leased brand new trains because it was cheaper (cheaper leasing fee) than continuing to lease the old trains (not that hey were that old!)

[@pn112upfast]

Can they not work with 88s? Man Airport to Glasgow or Edinburgh. I know only 100mph but it would be fun

[@baseballfan99]

The ride quality of Nova trains is not the best compared to the 185’s. This is happening a lot on new trains in the U.K. and I can only assume it’s cost cutting. Since the Government took over there are still quite a few cancellations and of cause there way out of this is simply not to run the trains at all after the timetable change.

[@Thom-TRA]

Modern problems require modern solutions I guess

[@jordyboy62]

The problem with the new trains being built (particularly the Hitachi 800 series) is that the Government imposed on the Train operators what trains and what spec they were allowed to have. This is why LNER Azuma trains have the awful hard seating. However I do wish to stress that the Government running the trains is not the issue, it's more specifically this government who hates public transport investment.

[@baseballfan99]

@@jordyboy62 They certainly hate everything about public transport.

[@Bungle-UK]

@@jordyboy62erm, rail investment from government is currently at its highest level since the 1950s.

[@hughjanus7354]

@@Bungle-UK it's quantity over quality.

[@Grid56]

If they replaced the 68 with one of the new tri-mode locos, they'd be able to stable anywhere nice and quietly.

[@swiftymorgan5064]

Having had a cursory glance at a railway magazine, the problems seem to be .... 1 cracks appearing in (I presume) the underframe - surely something that could have been resolved? 2 crew-training on these trains being hopelessly behind schedule - not the trains fault, but a result of coronavirus and no end of strike-disputes 3 the residents of Scarborough complaining about overnight noise-congestion - surely try shutting the engines down and connect the train to lineside equipment? 4 the government is trying to force all these franchises to save money. If that means a poorer service then why would they care?

[@TrewStudios21]

I would think that the class 68s would be given to the DRS (direct rail services) and use them for freight

[@brianhubert8418]

Wow, thanks for sharing. That's so true about the U.S. I get excited when I get to ride a 1980s Amfleet II on the Adirondack over the 1970s Amfleet Is. It'll be interesting to see what happens with these new Avelia/Liberty Acelas if and when they ever enter service. I wonder if this Acela saga will pretty much blacklist Alstom from any other North American intercity/HSR contracts. It's a shame when we got so much money going into the NEC for projects like Gateway and the Frederick Douglass Tunnel.

[@frongus47]

You guys need hitachi 800s or pendelino 390 or even voyagers

[@oliverstemp9132]

It’s not franchises anymore, it’s whoever gives them the most money.

[@randomtransportguyx4397]

I dont think its out of the question that grand central could acquire soem kf these for the bradford/london line

[@jonathanbutson1385]

Bear, thanks for your very well produced video. One of the reasons is that most TPE drivers and conductors don't know how to work NOVA 3s, as the smallest fleet within TPE, with their other problems, it is a smart business move to get rid of them. A lot of cancellations happen because a driver will get halfway to the trains destination, but to the end of his roster and there is no driver with the traction knowledge to take the train forward. A lot of this info is available in Modern railways magazine, a very informative mag about the British railway business. It rather compliments your excellent videos, providing the informative background to them.

[@simonh317]

The Mk5a coaches have cracks in already (around the yaw dampener mounting points) , with the youngest being 5 years old ; but if the noise from the Class 68 can be solved then yes it looks like Chiltern will take them all to replace the Mk3 sets

[@Thom-TRA]

Thanks for shining some light on the specific issues

[@Trainman10715]

they wouldnt bother, the mark 3s dont need replacing and theres nothing the mark 5s could offer over them other than worse availability

[@matthewharty6531]

Yay that's my local service

[@michaelformaini7053]

I'm a bit out of date on this issue but...boy o boy....some of the comments! Wow! Personally I enjoyed my two rides on the Class 185 five years ago when the Nova clan were just being tested and, so far as I could see, they had only two faults;- 1. Three car sets are too short for the Intercity Commuter type service they operate. 2. No on board catering - even a coin operated QUALITY coffee machine and/or sandwich dispenser would be nice. The Nova 1 and Nova 2 appear to be right-sized for the duty types but I cannot comment further as I'm not familiar with their facilities. Down under in the State of Victoria we have a similar problem with our locally built V/Locity units that parallels my assessment of the 185s. We still have 4 - 5 car loco hauled "Classic" carriage set trains on some services but these will eventually be withdrawn and replaced by V/locity Units. A lot more could be said but I'll hold my tongue for now.🙂🙂🙂

[@Foxy_AR]

I can’t be the only one who thought this was gonna be a review of the train 😂

[@Thom-TRA]

In 5 minutes?

[@Foxy_AR]

@@Thom-TRA didn’t look at the duration lol

[@MbtaVideoClips]

@@Foxy_ARsame here lol

[@BassandoForte]

A sneak peak of Warrington Central at the end there - I only live 10 minutes walk away - My eatate car park backs onto the embankment on the approaches to the station... And yes Northen Conductors are pri#ks.. 👍

[@trevornelmes9331]

The TPE trains are being 'stored' at Long Marston, just down the road from me. At this time, they are destined for dismantling and scrap recycling, so I imagine they will get processed through the huge scrap metal plant next door. No operator is going to take these on, so the finance company who owns them is going to take a big hit.

[@Thom-TRA]

Nobody wanted to buy them? What a waste to see them scrapped already…

[@trevornelmes9331]

@@Thom-TRA The chassis under the coaches are so badly cracked they need to be replaced, not repaired. They cracked because they were not strong/rigid enough for the size of the coach body on top, so, rather than replacing like for like, a new chassis would need to be designed, tested and built. That is a big cost. Far more than simply buying a similar sized coach that is better suited. The coach body would be fine, but it is useless without a chassis under it ... well, same problem. The Class 68 locos have a worse problem, they are loud when warming up. There were only 34 in service in the UK, of which TPE had 14, so that leaves on 20 maybe still in service. With such low numbers, servicing costs will be high. I suspect these TPE Class 68 locos will end up being cannibalized to keep the other 20 going. Will the Class 88 and 93 be any better? Same Caterpillar engine in them, but quite different loco (being both electric and diesel powered - I bet that will cause all manner of problems too).

[@97SEMTEX]

Its a real shame that the companies and government aren't more interested in refining these locos and coaches and seem set of pawning them off on someone else. That being said it could well be possible that these are beyond saving as I'm no expert, but having riden on them a few times; when on time, they were very nice and smooth.

[@LondonEmergency999]

The class 68s will be returning to Direct Rail Services to be put back into freight traffic. The fate of the MK5s looks uncertain.

[@andyc3088]

Nova 2 are nice trains to travel in

[@kriss_b]

Where you kicked off at Warrington central?

[@Thom-TRA]

Yes they were

[@alhumphrey81]

The CAF stuff has been very rushed. When Caledonian sleeper was introduced, they had so many issues with CAF, like wise with TPE 395s. They are the stock no one wanted. I'm just putting it out there though, the UK government puts contracts out to tender for new trains, CAF also donates a lot of money to the government in the UK. Coincidence?

[@KydenWolf]

If it wasn’t for the difference in loading gauges, I’d say bring them to America rebuild them, and run them on a new Corridor service

[@lisaodd3196]

I live near the Scarborough -York stretch of the line where TPE operate and I'm gutted I won't hear those beautiful Class 68's purr along the line. People have whinged about the noise from them, they take a while to warm up and people who live nearby don't like it. So it's just boring DMU's in the future. Think they last run in December.

[@duncancampbell9490]

Example - the crappy old Pacers could run up to Scarborough at a rate of knots as they were lightweight and could corner faster than a heavy loco ( Class 68 ) + coaches hence heavily flawed for use on this route.

[@vicsams4431]

Please read my entry concerning the fragile track status of the Scarborough line and the 45 over 90 SP differential speed which allows RA1 Class 158 to do 90 mph while RA5 Class 185 and RA7 Class 68 are restricted to 45 mph. But Pacers were banned from the SP list despite their RA1 axle load due to their single axles.

[@davidty2006]

Pacers got well the bloody obvious of issues... Think Sprinters would be better for the job.

[@Trainman10715]

@@davidty2006 from an operational standpoint the pacers had no issues at all

[@tabriff3832]

Read about withdrawal of the 68 a while ago. Can’t find original article… Seem to recall that withdrawal was inevitable as the design met Stage IIIA Emissions Standard, but not Stage IIIB. So, all other issues arising, seems they were doomed from the beginning. Just another interim loco. Oh yeh, the Class 43 interim loco, that lasted 47 years and counting. The Class 60, which was definitely not an interim loco, but got mostly mothballed (that’s another story). The history of British railways, drama, tragedy, comedy, brilliance, and not least, stupidity, all rolled into one. And the story ain’t over yet. 🙄

[@uingaeoc3905]

Will you ever do Merseyrail's Staidler 777s dual battery-third rail mode sets?

[@Thom-TRA]

Sadly, my brother filmed Merseyrail just before the 777s entered service! Guess we’ll have to come back

[@TheTunnyTrainSpottingUK]

The leasing agent is DRS

[@DougPaulley]

Bear got chucked off a British train despite having a ticket!!!

[@Thom-TRA]

Poor Bear…

[@colingraham1065]

Sorry but you didn't really explain why TPE find these so terrible when Chiltern apparently get on so well with them?

[@Thom-TRA]

Does chiltern use the Mark 5A? No, no they don’t.

[@rthoc71]

One suitable route be London Waterloo to Exeter west of England main line. As route was used noise class 50 & Mk2 stock running, SWR albeit looking at greener trains for route likely hydrogen but that long way off for now as class 159 around 31-34years old on current route using Mk5 on here which part of 1st Group make more sense until 68 can be replaced by more environmental friendly engine. This may include something similar to rebuilt class 73/9 where new build loco capable running on 3rd Rail & Diesel power systems use e-synthethtic fuel which Zero emissions u would need a 6 axle loco Co-Co better for Traction with adequate space for 3rd rail components electric and suitable diesel engine. Caterpillar do actually produce EMD 1010J engine this 12 cylinder 3 stage turbocharged pumps out 4,600bhp this be ideal if silencer can fitted to desigh build which Co-Co body length possibly give.

[@kevinpoulton]

Yes train have reported cracking problems. Yes the class 68 are loud but this is not the real reason . The real reason is TPE is understaffed and they had to cancelled 100s of train every week . This slow down driver training on the train . So they cancelled the train so do not have to cancelled as many train . The line I on should had the new train 3 years ago

[@joginns778]

I only have one thing to say to those who are complaining about noise of these train's , DON'T BUY A HOUSE NEXT TO A RAILWAY its that easy,

[@redsidebiker]

I'll guess that the Nova 3s will got to Cross Country or Transport for Wales...........

[@maestromecanico597]

VIA Rail shouldn't have jumped the gun and bought new. They could have gotten the Nova 3s for a song!

[@jackaylward-williams9064]

I wondered why it was so rare to see those particular trains. With the exception of the York- Scarborough route, all of TPE's services call at at least one station which I travel through regularly, but aside from an out of service train at Doncaster station, I've never seen a Nova 3.

[@bostonrailfan2427]

you summed it up at the end: leasing. the leasing of trains vs. outright ownership is why Europe can change so often as it’s economically viable for the leasing company to lease a new set then re-lease the old sets to others. few agencies in the US do that, it isn’t feasible unless they’re extremely strapped for cash…. and one other thing is the kind of trains run: trainsets aren’t the norm, locomotive-hauled trains are. they can easily replace a defective coach with another on a locomotive-hauled train but can’t easily replace a defective coach on a trainset….

[@Thom-TRA]

But the defective trains in question are locomotive hauled trains. I don’t buy the whole locomotive hauled trains are more flexible than trainset argument. There’s a reason every country with better trains than the US heavily relies on multiple units.

[@bostonrailfan2427]

@@Thom-TRA i didn’t say train, i said COACH. you remove the coach and replace it, it’s why there’s spares sitting in the yards at every terminal 🙄 instead of needing an entire new trainset, you only replace one single coach! i give up, you made it clear that you are talking out of your ass because the information i gave came DIRECTLY FROM ACTUAL ENGINEERS

[@Thom-TRA]

@@bostonrailfan2427 dude you escalated that so fast. What is wrong with you? You must be a child, the way you’re acting. All I said was I’m not convinced that the benefits of switching out coaches outweigh the benefits of trainsets. But please, give up. And talk like that to me again and you won’t be welcome to watch any of my videos, little hothead.

[@alexisnorman9446]

@@Thom-TRA Also, many units in the UK can have carriage swaps. they even modified the 390 to make it easier (the original version was almost impossible due to modifications needed in the software each time)

[@Northenveg]

The only reason they experince so many problems is because the locos are meant for express and freight operations there not built for stop start operations wich tpe used them on it was a bad idea from the start,if they used them right it woudlve worked right

[@Thom-TRA]

Mr. Class 68 has spoken!

[@londonwhaley8690]

I enjoy the video👍👍

[@kyleJohn1997]

This is why the Railway needs to Nationalised

[@Thom-TRA]

There are private companies that are performing well and the government is not performing well in other areas so this is an anecdote, not a fair argument

[@Badge2812]

While this is true, its like trying to navigate a minefield, however it's not entirely anecdotal but there is an argument to be made in either case, but what it comes down to is the funding or rather the lack there of, because as long as franchises exist on a privatised national network they're for profit entities, which almost always correlates with higher ticket prices and the cost of transport being shifted onto the customer (which doesn't help at all, because that makes people far less likely to take the train and as a result they make less money), government subsidies could solve a large majority of the issues on the railway but as long as we have a tory government that sure as shit won't happen. Nationalisation is a wishful dream that might work in a vacuum but is in no way practical given the current state of TOCs or the government for that matter. Great video nonetheless mate.

[@EChid]

@@Thom-TRA Which ones are performing well, precisely? Even Thatcher was against privatising train networks. The UK's mishmash of train companies is hugely inefficient, confusing for the consumer (you want to go to Canterbury? Oh here's a random new app and sign-up process for you), and almost universally disappointing and unreliable as well. This is not to mention that the cost is extremely high relative to other European countries. You can't tell me that the current train setup works well for this country and when it costs as much to go from London to Bristol as it does to go from London to Barcelona, yet this is where we are. A country willingly restricting the movement of its citizens and utility of perfectly capable train networks because we are stubbornly maintaining a semi-private system that even North America wouldn't embrace.

[@Thom-TRA]

@@EChid those are all arguments against the current set up, but they fail to do what I asked OP to do, which is prove how FirstGroup’s failures mean all private companies are failing. You are not arguing in good faith.

[@vicsams4431]

Maybe, but BR was one company not this sham split up for profit instead of customer focus.