Why Tolkien Supported Franco

In this video we explore Tolkien's views on Francisco Franco, as well as the historical context of the Spanish Civil War and Tolkien's connection to it, that may have impacted his opinions!
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[@gustyko8668]

Something to point out too, is that Tolkien also opposed the "anti-german" sentiment of the time, saying that trying to exterminate the german people "just because they are germans" is not different nor better than Nazi's treatment of the jews.

[@ZephyrOptional]

Yes, I think this proves Tolkien was far beyond nationalism and supported human life over state allegiance . A very, very non-fascist stance.

[@Churchmilitant67]

@@ZephyrOptional It's a Orthodox Catholic stance.

[@ZephyrOptional]

@@Churchmilitant67 sure partly, but Tolkien’s morality was beyond Catholicism too. Eru crested men and women as equals and death is a gift rather than a curse and honorable suicide is not a sin.

[@Churchmilitant67]

@@ZephyrOptional I'm not a Tolkien super fan, so I'll take it under advisement, but the Lord of the Rings was NOT intended to be Catholic apologetics. What can't be denied was Orthodox Catholism informed Tolkien's world view.

[@Churchmilitant67]

@@ZephyrOptional and also, what gives you the idea Orthodox Catholism teaches men and women don't have equal dignity before God? 🤔 Despite how some "catholic's' may act?

[@alicianieto2822]

He was not wrong in the portrait of anticatholicism in England at all...or on pointing out the double moral. My grandfather used to be a republican and ended up in a Franco concentration camp for it for some time, and got his brother executed by Franco, yet he did speak worse of the last year of the republic than about the camp or Franco, so...that must have been something

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

this video highlights two very sad mistakes that we make as a society, which are possibly even more prevalent today. the first is that we tend to lump people together when they have "similar" beliefs, which then leads to a lot of people being falsely accused of supporting ideologies they don't, and turns everything into a wildly polarising conflict of left vs right. the other is that, on both sides of these debates, when people believe they are right they go to truly awful lengths to punish the people who are wrong in their minds, and all that does is create more division between us and lead to even more conflict. whether you're a traditionalist catholic monarchist like tolkien, or a pro-democracy liberal socialist like me, we all want the same thing which is for everyone to have the best lives possible, we just have different views on how to go about that. i remember on ink and fantasy's video about why tolkien believed in monarchy we had a really fascinating debate about democracy vs monarchy in a comment thread, nobody was attacking anyone, everyone fully considered the opposing points before responding, and since we all had that common goal we found a lot of common ground. in stark contrast in most of today's society we turn absolutely everything into a war of good vs evil (with everyone believing they're on the good side of course), and ironically it mostly comes from the more progressive groups who have basically formed a left alliance at this point. if you don't instantly agree that religion is evil, right leaning governments are awful, ten year old children should be able to decide to get gender treatment (i'm saying this as a trans person), or that stealing eggs from chickens is wrong or whatever the point is, then you're suddenly cast as a villain who's racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and whatever else they can think of. and when so many people get constantly attacked for the stupidest things they naturally band together, and absorb a bunch of extreme opinions from eachother until we end up with people like andrew tate manipulating millions of disillusioned people into spouting his bs. shockingly when we have billions of people constantly screaming at eachother from their digital high horses that's not conducive to a functional society, we're more polarised than we've been in a long time to the point where even tiny things like a guy in makeup or going to church can cause instant global hatred for everyone involved. people just need to realise that we're all people, and even if we disagree about things that doesn't mean we need to hate eachother. in reality if we just all communicated about our beliefs in a healthy way, made our points without being belligerent and considered opposing views, then we'd be able to sort out all of our differences. that's part of why i appreciate this channel so much, because you always articulate everything beautifully without any bias, and these videos encourage healthy debate about the various points made. tolkien's views couldn't be further from my own, and if i were to take them at face value without considering his deeper motivations then it would be easy for me to view him in a negative light, but (even though i frequently disagree with him completely) i've come to really appreciate his insights into the world and i've realised there's a lot of value in considering them

[@IbnRushd-mv3fp]

No offense but these are all your leftist "socialist" buddies in the mainstream who propagated most of that crap to begin with, non of those things (gay rights, feminism, environmentalism,) were created to help people but to further keep them involved with debt and taxation!

[@fernandogarcia3957]

Great analysis. A bit long but necessary. Thanks 💪👋

[@IbnRushd-mv3fp]

Based?

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

you know normally when i say something like this (i'll admit that i tend to rant about stuff like this coz it annoys me so much) everyone assumes i'm some kind of bigot or idiot which is funny since it just proves my point. i was very surprised to see people liked this comment

[@belfigue]

Franco did not persecute the Jews. Not sure where you got that from. He even helped some Jews escape Europe.

[@alicianieto2822]

He helped many ( although that was more Spanish diplomats acting on their own), allowed them to stay in Spain ( he was pressured by the church mostly) and had a weird simpathy for sephardic jews. He also gave passionate antisemitic speeches early on (especially against eastern europe jews), offered assylum and protection to various elements known yo be responsible for the holocauste, and was obsesssed with the existence of a jewish-massonic secret aliance conspiring against him and against Europe...The " judeomasonic conspiracy" was brought uo so often that it is a meme reference in Spain at this point, so he did give them paranoid attention even if it was not organized extermination like in other parts.

[@francescocarlini7613]

The Jews only escaped through Spain to get to Lisbon and then cross the Atlantic.

[@belfigue]

@@alicianieto2822 thank you, you are very right

[@fernandogarcia3957]

​@@alicianieto2822The judeo-masonic conspiracy allegation was later in his regime. He did outlaw 'free'masonry. Not the jews, and by the way, that conspiracy was the scapegoat and term for everything, a bombastic official way of referring to an invisible enemy.

[@IbnRushd-mv3fp]

People: "I hate fascists because they're fascists" also people: "henry kissinger my senpai"

[@ZephyrOptional]

I hate Kissinger because he’s a war criminal…

[@fernandogarcia3957]

Kissinger was not a fascist. He wasn't a good guy, don't misinterpret me, but not everyone who is not left wing is a fascist, nowadays this needs saying.

[@napoleonfeanor]

He wasn't fascist although allying with them. He was a traditional monarchist conservative. An authoritarian dictator but the alternative was Stalinism. He himself wasn't a falangist. They had a weird power sharing agreement.

[@thepatriarchy8443]

Correct. It drives me crazy how low-information leftists lump ALL right-wing ideologies together as "fascist."

[@R0TT3R]

Yeah that's something that pisses me off as a someone who study political science. That's a big mistake which is common in mainstream media and unfortunately is often repeated by many other people. Also it is worth to mention that Carlists, catholic monarchists who had very similar ideas to Tolkien's, also were allies of Franco even if they often disagree with him.

[@vanjadezelic732]

He wasn't fascist although allying with them. it means he was a fascist. and yes, franco was fascist.

[@R0TT3R]

@@vanjadezelic732 He wasn't fascist. Fascism is a political ideology which Franco didn't support. It was only alliance to defeat communists. Franco even was helping allies during later years of WWII.

[@ZephyrOptional]

Tolkien is a self described anarchist. He despised fascist and feared authoritarian communism and loathed nationalism. There was a lot of misunderstanding of the Spanish civil war as it was unfolding. JRRT: “My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning the abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) - or to ‘unconstitutional’ Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inaminate real of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate!”

[@daimon7421]

6:33 As a fun fact, Father Francis Morgan Osborne is also the great-great-uncle of Bertín Osborne, a really well known spanish singer.

[@gupyb4165]

Tell Euskadi how much Franco protected catholics.

[@beardyben7848]

I really appreciate your video. You defended Tolkein's view with measured reasoning, historical context, and restraint. I really dislike hasty claims that historical figures support this cause or that with the reasoning "it was obviously the right thing to do" or "obviously the people they dislike are wrong and stupid." It's shallow, often ignores facts to assume the claim, and the claimant appears to be waving a team flag to look cool and hate on a person or group at the expense of the dead person's reputation. I mean if a historical figure fought a war without any recorded misgivings or change in view in their life, then you can claim they hated their enemy or didn't see them as fully human. That's simple.

[@marcietownsend3635]

Interesting and original content. Thank you. I look forward to more videos.

[@thepatriarchy8443]

Isn't it obvious? Because the alternative was worse.

[@DammitBobby]

It's because he was a catholic lol. That's it.

[@Aendavenau]

Yeah the democratically elected socialdemocrat government might have what? Plenty of socialdemocrats lead governments in Europe then and since then. Many where very successful. We know how it went for Franco. After overthrowing the democratic instutionens and killing hundreds of thousends in a long and bloody civil war he lead a brutal dictatorship who was isolated and had almost no economic growth until he died and they had a democratic election. After that Spain flourished, except the Catholic church whos support of Franco is remembered in Spain. Some of them has been, brace for it: Socialdemocrats.

[@napoleonfeanor]

​@@AendavenauNot really.

[@crusader2112]

@@Aendavenau No growth? Wrong. Franco eventually opened up markets and traded with the West. And the Social Democrats had very great support from Radicals like Communists and we can make no compromises with them. The government began cracking down on religious liberty like removing Catholic priests from education and favoring (cringe) state public education.

[@austinm3377]

Worse? That implies that Franco was bad in some way. Which he was not.

[@hglundahl]

13:15 There is a source about his friend Roy Campbell. After the war, he became, not a Franco supporter, but a Carloctavista and resettled in Portugal which suited his views better.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Thanks for the more in depth look at this - nuance is a thing after all! 👍

[@hglundahl]

12:07 When exactly do you pretend Jews were _persecuted_ by Franco's régime? They were _discriminated_ against prior to Vatican II, as non-Catholics, do you count that as persecution? W a i t ... there was a total ban on Jewish services, not just a demand that Synagogues should be discrete? I wonder if Stanley G. Payne is totally accurate on that point ... even if he was, it's not sure Tolkien heard of it. (By the way, he could be miscited by wikipedia). But there is no question of bloody persecution, and Franco's Spain certainly helped to save Jews. FROM whatever Hitler had in store for them, had Spain not stepped in. Here is a direct citation from Payne: _"By 1943, the Spanish regime had developed a three-war theory of the global conflict: in the war between Communists and anti-Communists in eastern Europe, Spain was declared to favor the German anti-Communists, where her own [687] troops had until recently been engaged; in the war between the Axis and Allies in western Europe, Spain was neutral; in the struggle between the western allies and Japan in the Far East, Spain favored the allies. Anti-Nazi refugees were given sanctuary in Spain and transit rights elsewhere, and the regime later extended Spanish citizenship to several thousand Sephardic Jews in the Balkans to try to save them from extermination."_ A History of Spain and Portugal vol. 2 Stanley G. Payne, Chapter 28: Spain in the Franco Era [684]

[@rmalsen3052]

Based Tolkien

[@litterbox2010]

does "based" mean fascism, to you?

[@crusader2112]

@@litterbox2010 Regardless whether Franco was Fascist or not. He was a necessary evil to expel any all leftists from Spain and to protect Catholicism. Just look up what the Anarchists were doing to Holy men and women and one more thing. They had literal concentration camps for political dissidents.

[@yourhighness6457]

Almost as based as you son

[@thoorwulfn9z383]

@@litterbox2010 yes and it is based

[@ivangrozny496]

@@litterbox2010 when everyone who despises your people and is trying to subvert them hates and fears fascism more than anything else, it may be time to look into fascism

[@KipIngram]

The "Red Menace" was in no way "so called." It WAS a menace. It's a mistake to focus on the ideology and the verbiage, slogans, and so on - every single time groups have sought power while cloaking themselves in those ideas, the end result has been the brutal slaughter of millions of people. We focus a lot on the murder of Jews by Hitler, but meanwhile Stalin was also slaughtering anyone even a little bit opposed to him. The bottom line is that ANY set of ideas that place enormous power in the hands of a small group of "visionary leaders" leads to that same bad outcome - all that's in question is the scale of it. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... no difference. Death ensues. EVERYONE should stand against this set of ideas. That doesn't mean that we don't seek fairness for our populations - it just means that we don't go all the way to that extreme. It's simply too much power for the majority of human beings to resist abusing.

[@doravee]

It wasn't even close to being a "menace". If anything's a menace, it's religious tyranny.

[@maynardwayward12]

yeah fuck Stalin, but many of those pushing the red menace narrative would lump all leftists in with him

[@hglundahl]

9:35 I think there was, perhaps same letter, perhaps another one, where he considered that some on Franco's side was excessive retaliation, but that a lust for revenge was as natural in those too hardly dealt with, as feelings of lust in a rape victim. So, he didn't disbelieve _all_ stories of cruelties on Franco's side. I don't disbelieve those involving Yagüe.

[@user-nm5kz2jv3k]

Tolkien so based as allways!

[@Cole205]

Uhhhh BASED ALERT

[@litterbox2010]

... yeah. fascism is so based. loser.

[@Jelperman]

Many British writers had a man-crush for fascism. P. G. Wodehouse was a Nazi collaborator, for example. Tolkien is only noteworthy because his books are still bestsellers.

[@hglundahl]

11:19 Fascist régimes tied The State to The People. Guess what. So did the Soviet Union. So did Western Democracies. Would you mind citing the precise passage in Letter 52 Tolkien considers The State especially dangerous if tied to The People? I don't think you'll find that, actually. It's not because that was Gänsewein's or Ratzinger's opinion that that was also Tolkien's. What is really dangerous in my own opinion between State and People is if the State believes itself to be the best representative of the People, a bit like certain aunts and uncles who believe themselves to be the best pals of a five year old nephew. A fad a certain Chesterton wrote about ...

[@garywinthrop6828]

Always Constant Tolkien W

[@aceraphael]

what wizardry is this! I was thinking of this very fact yesterday.😱

[@EzekielDeLaCroix]

Spanish Miracle, Pact of Forgetting Gang rise up.

[@hglundahl]

5:30 Parts of the reason for the brutality of the war was that Franco preferred libertating Moscardó over Madrid. Do you think Aragorn's choice to get Merry and Pippin from the Orcs owed sth to Franco / Moscardó?

[@laisphinto6372]

I would say He Liked Franco for the simple fact after the civil war Franco Tried and succeed having spain Out of another world war.

[@matthewdavid6134]

I guess a reminder that our heroes are human, subject to flaw, folly and bias, just as we are, nice to know.

[@Churchmilitant67]

I don't claim, to be a historian, but my understanding is that the western "democracies" supported the republic during the Spanish civil war.

[@InkandFantasy]

A notable example to the contrary, other than private accounts of British ministers such as Eden and military men in favor of Franco, is the fact that the British fleet escorted and protected the Nationalist forces as they made their way to their original invasion and takeover of Republican territory. They, moreover, provided assistance and reconnaissance through Gibraltar and the British ambassador to Spain was noted for communicating with Franco’s side directly. Not to mention, that they also embargoed all military sales to Spain and by extension its legitimate (then Republican) government!

[@austinm3377]

Democracy is just a slower path to communism.

[@Churchmilitant67]

@@InkandFantasy I realized after I made the post, I was not clear. I meant official support. I realize that England and France gave Franco recognition, however, a government giving recognition and having open relations with it, are two different things.

[@Churchmilitant67]

@@austinm3377 politics is not the solution, God is the solution. As St. Francis of Assisi said" if you want to reform society, reform yourself".

[@scallamander4899]

Read Franco's Friends by Peter Day. 'Democratic' Britain helped Franco come to power.

[@dakinayantv3245]

Where's the documented evidence?

[@Iron_Wyvern]

NO MORE BROTHER WARS

[@hglundahl]

10:43 _"and especially"_ Fascists régimes apart from Hitler (who had been in two Communist governments in Munich) tended to be not as much Big State as Communism, not as much Big State even in some respects than Progressive Era legislations from US and from Northern Countries. Remember, Eugenics was not a thing with Mussolini (at least prior to 1938) or Franco (ever, even if Valleja Nájera wanted it), and when Pius XI directly in so many words condemned Eugenics was not in Mit brennender Sorge, it was in Casti Connubii, he was directing those words exclusively against democratically elected régimes at that point. South Carolina and Alberta, Sweden and Norway were not Fascists dictatorships, they had free elections with usually pluri- at least bipartisan candidatures. I can't for my life see why, in the perspective of 1944, Fascist régimes established in the 20's or 30's should be seen as the prime example of Big State. Apart from that of a man who ought to have remained a painter, if you even will call it Fascist.

[@celestialhylos7028]

Tolkien and Lewis looked like Frodo and Sam.

[@Narses_the_aremnian]

Spain old roman province damn rebels

[@victor382]

I’m 1 min 11 sec in and you already made a mistake, King Alfonso wasn’t deposed, he abdicated.

[@InkandFantasy]

He fled Spain following what was an effective popular deposition following elections that evolved into a de facto referendum on the monarchical system! He did not surrender the rights to the Spanish throne as far as I am aware.

[@elmeromogollon]

Tolkien: con franco esto no pasaba.

[@HS-su3cf]

Wasn't Franco a National Syndicalist?

[@fernandogarcia3957]

No. That was a branch of Falange, the party that had some inspiration on Italian fascism but was milder. They were absorbed into the Movimiento Nacional which was Franco's single party during the dictatorship. Their ideas were never put to plan and were only rethoric of the regime but Falange's program was left away. Franco was very smart in this suffocation of this political view.

[@sirzezin4950]

Lets gooooooo based Tolkien

[@fmsyntheses]

Why would you ever need to explain yourself for fighting commies?

[@rursus8354]

That's 20:th century black-and-white thinking. Communism is no good, but it is also dying. So why did it happen?

[@lordbendtner9328]

Because you're supporting literal falangism in the process?

[@crusader2112]

@@lordbendtner9328 Franco wasn't a Falangist, he was an opportunist who used the Falange, but removed key falangist leaders.

[@lordbendtner9328]

@@crusader2112 doesn't make it any better

[@crusader2112]

@@lordbendtner9328 Fair, but I would still argue Franco was a necessary evil to keep Spain from Fracturing and to defend Catholics.

[@jose280714]

May I know your primary tongue? Your accent haven't heard before..

[@doravee]

Meh. I'd side with Stalin first and he certainly was no saint.

[@maynardwayward12]

Tolkien was a conservative, I wouldn't say he was far right, but his conception of an ideal society is rooted in a past that is pure fantasy. The Shire etc. England never looked anything like that, that we know of.

[@crusader2112]

Wasn't the closest thing to the Shire the English countryside pre-industrialization with rolling hills and towns & villages?

[@maynardwayward12]

@@crusader2112 you mean feudalism? nah, I have to give Tolkien more credit than that, he idealized an earlier time, but I'm not a scholar

[@ladymacbethofmtensk896]

Franco was a bit of an odd dictator in that he softened quite a lot over the course of his reign. That is not to say that he did not do terrible things, but the overwhelming majority of his atrocities were committed during the war and his early years in power, and toward his last years, he planned for when he would inevitably bow out. That said, whatever atrocious deeds Franco committed, I blame the Spanish Republicans for creating the circumstances that made his dictatorship possible in the first place.

[@laisphinto6372]

That isnt odd its more typical of dictators and tyrants especially the original concept of them IT never was supposed to BE one man rule going nuts and Drink with Power. Spain was very fractured a Big reason why the Other Side lost and Franco Tried to unite spain again and was a true nationalist and by that i mean the interest of spain came First Not a pseudo unity of loyalty with Other nations simply because they Had a similar government system.

[@fernandogarcia3957]

Pretty well explained. Thanks!

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

An enemy of Communism is a friend of mine

[@crusader2112]

Viva France! Viva CHRISTO REI! Arriba Espana! P.S. Wow. C.S. Lewis bought into the Anti-Franco propaganda. smh 😔

[@IoannesPetrvs]

¡Viva Cristo Rey!

[@ronaldsmith6399]

Why are you using a phrase "so called"?

[@InkandFantasy]

Because my role isn’t to pass a judgement as to whether, for example, the communists were a menace or propagandists, but that they were perceived that way by Tolkien, which is ultimately the subject of the video. Tolkien’s POV and not a political history video!

[@anon2034]

@@InkandFantasy Using the "so called" phrase is a pass of judgement. It gives the viewer of your content that the subject is somehow made up or unpleasent so you need to show "neutrality". The neutrality that is acceptable by the current regime. Good video, though. Keep going!

[@thecaptain6730]

Ink and Fantasy, you are making a video which consists of your opinions. Everyone who watches any video on KZbin realizes that we are watching peoples opinions. So you should never need to use the phrase so-called. Just state would you believe like every other KZbinr does. If you like communism, that’s fine we all know that it’s just your opinion.

[@InkandFantasy]

I’m actually quite against communism haha. Maybe that’s why I tried so hard to be neutral in the video. Thanks for watching!!

[@litterbox2010]

@@anon2034 That's your view, and biases.

[@JohnSmith-eo6uu]

Weird that you left out the fact that fascist Germany and Italy supported the nationalist side of the war when you talked about the USSR supporting the republican 🤔

[@InkandFantasy]

I mentioned it explicitly within the video twice at different segments!

[@spacemanspud7073]

He specifically mentions it at 4:58

[@LordVader1094]

He literally does though. Did you even watch the vid?

[@someinteresting]

After a week in Spain Hitler said he preferred to have three teeth removed than see Franco again. 🤣

[@Bagman07]

I think i like Tolkien much more now.

[@NPC-bs3pm]

Not everyone is far-left in that: majority rules, majority rules, democracy, democracy - workers of the world unite workers unite. Some people see hierarchy or God given powers that are by dictate, as potentially legitimate under the principle of foundational 📚📕📗📘📙⏳history. If Spanish history📚 is full of Religious tension and the powers of the wealthy business men - that is to be taken into account when considering the country's foundation That being said HOWEVER: in comes the Communists/Socialists and the desire of them is to remove FOUNDATIONs of a nation. You do not change a country fundamentally, without potential🩸⚔🩸 push back. You do not deserve a new constitution based out of majority rule, unless you are willing to fight on that principle.

[@joemccallister4883]

Strange Bedfellows

[@ryanparker4996]

Only through your silly modern propagandized eyes my child

[@whitehorseking]

viva franco

[@portlandpipesmoker8497]

The best work and point of view on the Spanish Civil war, was Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia", which explains why the communist, fascist and western democracies all joined together to destroy the FAI and the CNT to stop the Spanish Revolution, which was a workers' social revolution that began at the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War in 1936 and for two to three years resulted in the widespread implementation of anarchist and, more broadly, libertarian socialist organizational principles throughout various portions of the country....one of the big reasons I'm an anarchist today... and strictly anti-fascist, anti-authoritarian, anti-racist, and anti- capitalist.

[@ryanparker4996]

So youre a faux intellectual whom no-one should listen to, noted, thanks for the tip

[@maaderllin]

In a sea of pro-monarchist and pro-authoritarian comment, it is good to see a fellow anarchist who studied a bit more the nuances of the left-side of the conflict.

[@albertolloret7688]

Based, Honor, Jesus is king

[@Hereticalable]

Based Tolkien.

[@Carlos101010101]

Viva Franco!

[@Mr_GameAndWatch]

As spanish it sadeens me to be simplified 50 years of dectatorship and civilians executed or used as labour force because race sexuality or believes. Was fascist vs democrats, comunist were never a thing in spain in Spain whole history there was never a comunist radical force. ..

[@rafaelian478]

Ah yes, the communists persecuting anyone that didn't believed on their ideology is all a lie, "democrats" really do everything to gain power even when they are not legitimate to govern a people, if the republican side managed to win, Spain would probably cease to exist and then balcanize in the future

[@crusader2112]

Um. There were radicals, the Anarchists. They brutalized catholic monks, priests, and nuns and they had concentration camps for political prisoners.

[@daimon7421]

Communists were never a thing? Lol, of course they were. Anarchism was stronger in Spain of course, but there was communism too (soy español pero es para que los otros lo lean tambien xdd)

[@vorynrosethorn903]

The republican forces literally carried the red banner into battle. The national gold reserves were sent to Moscow and never returned. The Stalinist faction famous had street battles in Madrid with the Trotskyist sympathetic units. Your country literally has a socialist government, and has had multiple. They disinterred Franco's body. It was a civil war, an event not marked by political moderation.

[@belegthoron8603]

Que el bando Republicano no haya sido exclusivamente comunista (ya que eran varias facciones que lo componían, al igual que los Nacionalistas), no quita el hecho de que los Republicanos cometieron crímenes también. No soy español, pero soy chileno y hay ciertas similitudes de Franco con Pinochet: los izquierdistas suelen decir lo malo que fue su dictadura (que en muchos sentidos lo fue), pero omiten los crímenes del otro bando; al mismo tiempo, al igual que Franco, la dictadura de Pinochet no fue ideológicamente fascista, sino que anticomunista. No es por justificar los crímenes hechos por ambos gobiernos autoritarios, pero la gente suele olvidarse que el otro bando era igual de malo (o incluso peor).

[@GenghisDon1970]

unsubbed "both sides" BS? NOPE, Franco was 5-10 times worse

[@vorynrosethorn903]

How, by having God on his side?

[@belegthoron8603]

Franco killed, repressed and censored many people during his goverment. However, many people forget the crimes of the Republican side. The Church was especially persecuted by the Republicans, inocent nuns were r*ped and priests killed.

[@aceraphael]

no.

[@SRWhitting]

Commies love commies

[@ryanparker4996]

This is not an airport, announcing your departure is not required. Go in peace

[@austinm3377]

Because Franco was awesome. I wish America had a fascist dictator.

[@litterbox2010]

It did, and it will.

[@crusader2112]

Franco was a traditional monarchist catholic conservative autocrat not a fascist leader. He co-opted them, merged them with the Carlists and weakened both.

[@vorynrosethorn903]

It was a shame that he sidelined the Carlists. America is heading towards a Casaer, perhaps in our lifetime, perhaps in that of our son's. Fascism is as an ideology suspect in that it is a belief system separated from faith in Christ. It also happens to be schizophrenic in it's internal logic and carry a lot of baggage. The dictators of the future will drape themselves in democratic symbolism just like the ruling managerial oligarchy currently does, it is a matter of court culture.

[@generalj216]

That’s not even what Franco was

[@ryanparker4996]

​@@litterbox2010when, you hysterical child?