Why Trees Are Taller Than They Need To Be

A forest is like a meadow on useless stilts.
Most amazing thing about trees: bit.ly/TFilQ8
We often imagine that unregulated competition produces optimal outcomes, behaviours, efficiencies, but trees and baggage carousels are two examples where the stable solution is worse for everyone than another strategy. This I find surprising and interesting - that evolution doesn't come to the best solution, it comes to the most stable one.
The Forest of Friendship was a concept I first came across in Richard Dawkin's book "The Greatest Show on Earth." One point I'd like to clarify is that being taller comes with a cost - having a longer trunk requires costly expenditure of energy. However, in a forest of uniformly short trees, being a little taller conveys an advantage. That is until all the other trees catch up, at which time the extra height no longer provides a benefit. So over time as the whole forest rises up the conditions are getting worse for each tree, but they are powerless to stop the evolutionary arms race.
Huge thank you to Brady Haran for filming (and summarizing the main points at the end of the film). He is the amazing creator of:
Numberphile: / numberphile
Sixty Symbols / sixtysymbols
Periodic Videos / periodicvideos
And many more...

[@veritasium]

My latest video was filmed near Bristol by the creator of Numberphile Sixty Symbols ***** and more. Brady even makes a cameo at the end of the video. Thanks man!

[@GianlucaFinocchio]

Before Veritasium: Oh look, a tree...yeah,boring... After Veritasium: Oh look a tree! I can't believe they're made of air! Oh wow, they raise water in a such amazing way! Oh that's wonderful, nature is selfish! "I will never look at trees the same way, again" [cit. Veritasium] How many times I have to repeat that in my mind? (Keep it up, your videos are great! Greetings from Italy!)

[@veritasium]

Haha - thank you! The third in the tree trilogy. I'm not sure how this happened but I'm glad it did.

[@sageyash]

Good thing that unlike trees we have brains to ... never mind.

[@timl2k11]

We have brains to call each other jerks.

[@RoScFan]

We have minds, but only individually. We are independent individuals, not a hive mind.

[@MrChonkers]

This is why "stable" and "optimal" are completely unrelated notions.

[@StefanReich]

Not completely unrelated. [Let me correct you 10 years later...] Optimal is always stable, OR there is a stable group of connected optimal points. Stable isn't always optimal though.

[@Venaloid]

"The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins

[@sutil5078]

is he the same guy who said eye wiring is stupid it should not be from the back , but from front

[@myopic_cyclops]

Tree Communism 101

[@PrairieWindSun]

I believe what he's describing (Forest of Friendship) is a prairie or grassland. It has extremely rich soil, tons of sunshine, regular rains, and wind to spread seeds. It has trees in a few places, but they are usually solitary and can't spread do to competition with more efficient plants, and those that do succeed usually grow very thin trunks in limited areas. This only happens when there isn't TOO much water or heat though, which allow extreme growth of plants, that will then go on to allow power in trunk building. There are a ton of other complications I won't get into, but they all do what they can to survive.

[@fsmdf]

At 2:00 Here in Brazil, the cerrado is a biome which is the opposite of the amazon forest. Trees grow separated from each other by lots of grass fields, and they are short, with leaves near the ground! But near rivers and water sources, trees are taller and the vegetation is denser. Alright, let me watch the rest of the video now.. :s

[@RaineAvina]

To me, you are literally the best Science Educator on KZbin. I can't remember a time I've been disappointed by one of your videos.

[@Vulcapyro]

Brayden Dargel Michael is cool, but isn't really a science educator in the same sense. It's more like he uses science in education, where the education is more about fact dumps and made-you-thinks.

[@Peacockspiderman]

Now that you explained human behaviour at the luggage carousel, can you tell us why they click the button repeatedly to "make the green traffic light come faster" ?

[@Humanius1994]

My guess is that that is more psychological. If you press a button, but there is no indication that the button has been pressed, people tend to press it again. In my town there are a few traffic lights that turn on a light that indicate that the button has been pressed, and there I've never seen anyone press the button multiple times.

[@Peacockspiderman]

Humanius Yes, it will have something to do with the fact that there is no direct result visible, or maybe with human distrust of technology. However, experience should over time reveal that no matter how hard or often you press the button it won't influence the green light. Or I would expect parents to pass this fundamental bit of "wisdom" on to their children. Seemingly that doesn't seem to happen. I bet that anybody doing a survey on this would find that the majority of people press the button at least twice. Anyway, just a funny thing I observed, don't intend to hijack the Forest of Friendship

[@MrHomeu98]

i have seen someone answered that question before on youtube..i can't quite remember what channel or who..but someone did..go and have a look.

[@dandymcgee]

They added beep sounds to all of the crosswalk buttons in my city, I never used to press the button multiple times but now I do cus the beep is so funny, lol.

[@levislimak103]

Au Yeung Ka Chon A video from Vsauce, it may have been from his second or third channel though:/

[@frollard]

Agreed...mostly. Our airport has a 'stand behind the yellow line' about 1.5 meters away from the carousel; I call people out for blocking the view. A system of rules (the cooperation you discussed) plus and social shaming DOES result in stability. The cost of stepping forward is being chastised. Without the rules, it's mayhem. The perimeter of the carousel plus 1.5 meters seems to be enough circumference to fit everyone shoulder to shoulder and everyone gets a chance. Competitive cooperation.

[@sd4dfg2]

It's the same with standing in line. I think we've all seen times when a long orderly line suddenly dissolves into a mad rush and crowd, each person fighting their own way forward. But normally we all impose order and circumstances and expectations on each other.

[@acomputer121]

To those of you saying "This is why communism / socialism can't work", I say to you, this is not the flaw with any governmental system or idealism, this is what is wrong with people, and life in general.

[@AlltimeNumbers]

Very true. Quite possibly our favourite Veritasium video to date! Well done.

[@00Skyfox]

Also remember a couple things: 1. The taller the tree is, the farther its seeds can scatter on the wind. 2. A tree out in the open may get tall but gets very wide with leaf-covered branches nearly to the ground, and overall takes on almost a ball shape as in the case of those huge old oaks you see in the middle of a corn field.

[@Infectionform]

Reminds me of concerts where if everyone just agreed to sit down then everyone could, but as soon as one idiot stands up everyone is forced to.

[@SproutyPottedPlant]

What about people in wheelchairs?

[@ArkhBaegor]

who the fuck wants to sit down at a concert?

[@eyesofphysics97]

tribalmasters They get screwed.

[@sbonel3224]

tribalmasters What about them ?

[@paulflute]

tribalmasters surly they're already sitting down..?

[@MEGAsporg12]

i love that he uses meters and not feet

[@MEGAsporg12]

sometimes. he also uses feet but it is easy to understand

[@KevinementD]

MEGAsporg12 he is from australia and they use the metric system.

[@RimstarOrg]

I thought while watching this that whoever was keeping up with you with the camera was doing an awfully good job. At the end I got my reason why - Brady was working the camera!

[@Techno.Belgium]

Maybe if airports taped an oval around the baggage carousel maybe people would wait at the line?

[@monkeypainter808]

They do this in Japan.

[@samhammer9179]

This comments thread is hilarious :) "Nash Equilibrium!" "Game Theory!" "Prisoner's Dilemma!" "This argues against Communism!" "This argues against Capitalism!" "TREES!"

[@erpmo3326]

I USED EMI RECITATION. MY PROF COMMENDED ME

[@JustinHalliday]

Also applies to jerks in tall SUVs who gain visibility over smaller cars, but block everyone else's visibility... :-(

[@JustinAkkerman]

Not so much their size, as the fact that they invariably have tinted glass that prevents you from even seeing through them. That and that they drive like pricks.

[@JustinAkkerman]

As an addendum, selfishness and corruption are eigen states. Once established, they only produce permutations of themselves that reduce to themselves. Only by external stimulous can their repetituous cycle be broken.

[@itmayki77]

Your hypothetical theory is incorrect due to the most insure fact that for which cars do not ever grow

[@JustinAkkerman]

itmayki77 I take it that you are joking? Cars "grow" in the same way that tree species do. Mutations in design give rise to new and different forms. "Successful" ones get reproduced and unsuccessful ones "fail" are discarded. You are correct to say that individual cars do not grow after they are constructed. No more so than trees do once they reach their full height.

[@RealationGames]

Put a giant sawblades circeling around the forrest at specific height. Fix'd. The same would obviously work with the people too, so why not.

[@sherbetwillow6752]

heads up!

[@zoravursingh5617]

isn't this like the nash equilbrium?

[@PedroTarrafeta]

It is

[@curiouspathfinder9083]

It most certainly is a prime example.

[@7Maleficus]

This video was awesome, definitely one of my favorites. Keeps these kinds of videos coming!

[@kostasvrakidis6122]

I really love this video. It's a beautiful example of how a combination multiple disciplines (physics,sociology,psychology & evolution in this case) can provide effortlessly solid explantions to a range of matters. This is what science is really about ! Keep up the good vids, Derek !

[@ravenlord4]

A Wild BRADY Appears!

[@joyble]

"Forest of Friendship, Baggage Carousel of Jerks" This guy must be so high...

[@kujmous]

Your content and delivery were awesome. Well presented!

[@nirgle]

Your videos are great... lots of fresh viewpoints on all this stuff we were taking for granted, and it makes tons of sense. Kudos!

[@homininrichie]

Thank you trees, for understanding how I feel. I appreciate it!

[@phynos8936]

That's an interesting connection, great video!

[@MaryThorensen]

Thus is brilliant !! It explains so many things in life! I saw this video like 6 years ago, and still remember it and find the examples for that phenomena everywhere)

[@donfolstar]

Trees staying short works pretty well in the Taiga, maybe airports just need to crank down the temperature around the carousels.

[@user-uz2ku3vb6b]

Actually that's an amazing idea :D

[@Lukeeiiee]

very insightful

[@myrkirstafir]

Insightful, concise and to the point. Neat!

[@treeplumber3408]

You were saying putting energy into the canopy is where it makes the most sense. I agree to some degree but putting energy into the trunk is equally important as it ensures new functional water conducting pipes (xylem) every year. When you look at a cross section of a tree trunk, you can find heartwood (dysfunctional xylem) and sapwood (functional xylem). The functional pipes are usually restricted to the outermost growth rings! In order to be able to stick around for hundreds of years trees need to have functional pipes which come in form of subsequent growth in diameter. Now one can ask what evolved first: 1) growth in diameter (which, besides making more xylem to ensure water transport over hundreds of years, also provide a foundation for additional height growth so that trees won't break) OR 2) height growth came first which needed support so that trees won't break and as a useful byproduct also produced functional pipes. Any thoughts? But I do enjoy your videos :) Keep up the good work!

[@HugoRez]

This is pure microeconomics! That is just like the definition of what a perfect competition market would be in economics, where the point in which the marginal cost ("the cost of going one more foot") is equal to the marginal revenue ("the benefit of collecting that additional sunlight") indicates the point with the highest profit. Yet, the video also points out that this situation is not necessarily the most efficient, what would be a market failure... Awesome video!

[@MakeMeThinkAgain]

This is also why Utopian social schemes, no matter how logical, can't last.

[@AliShaikh1]

Think again

[@acomputer121]

I think a better way to put it would be, this is why the governments must be totalitarian. It could last, but only if it operated in a way which is viewed as unethical by current standards.

[@greenpogo]

Your argument is probably because they never have? Things that have never been done before become real all the time. It hasn't happened yet - true... That is not to say it cannot.

[@archvenison563]

They can't last unless everyone involved actively tries to work together. This will never happen as long as people don't try because they believe it will never happen.

[@MakeMeThinkAgain]

In a self-selected group it can work for a generation but rarely much more than that unless you go the full cult route and make it nearly impossible for the younger generations to NOT cooperate.

[@sharcs]

Yea, we already have short trees that get the sunlight minus the cost, they are called bushes.

[@ManSeekingChrist]

Cool video, Assumption is being made though that trees grow taller for sunlight and this hurts shorter trees in the area... Well not all plants fare well in bright sun. Many prefer shade!

[@antaress8128]

I read this book and find it very interesting. I immediately linked it to this video when I started it and now I see that you have mentioned it in the description. :) Anyway great video as always.

[@trojan88tm]

would it really benefit all the tree's to agree to stay low? staying that low to the ground would greatly increase the accessibility of animals that would eat their precious leaves. the tree that grows out of reach of animals that will eat them (and can't climb trees) would give a distinct advantage over their lower & more vulnerable family members.

[@shatteredMUNDUM]

Every animal that needs to eat leaves or fruit of a tree can climb trees, trust me.

[@peledzohar]

really, Juan? I've never seen a giraffe climbing a tree, but then again...

[@DeusExAstra]

If some animals eat the leaves, then just grow more leaves. Or better yet, grow fruits. Surely the cost of growing more leaves is less than growing a huge energy-draining trunk. And if you grow fruits, then the animals help you spread your seeds all over.

[@trojan88tm]

@juanromero i can think of a few prominent examples of foliage/fruit eating animals that cannot climb trees (e.g deer, moose, giraffes, cows, antelope, buffalo, rabbits...) regardless if trees grew that low to the ground there would be not only more of these earth bound animals (due to increased food source), but there would not have been an evolutionary drive for other animals to be able to climb trees. therefore, a much larger pool of animals that can eat leaves from the comfort of the ground. @DeusExAstra(love the name btw) i have not done any studies of the energy cost of trunks v leaves, but i would assume a large trunk is like an investment.. you put in the energy to build it and you have it forever unlike leaves that turn over constantly. in other words, if you added up all the energy saved from not having to continuously grow more leaves (that were eaten) it may very well equal or surpass the energy cost of growing a trunk (just a theory). but what isn't a theory is that if the trees grew that low to the ground there would be huge increase in available food to animals like deer et al.. therefore those populations would explode and thus devastate leaf producing trees through increased population.

[@GuiltyGearRockYou]

What's Brady doing here!? XD

[@imtypingwords]

lol

[@Epenser1]

making the best summary ever...

[@Slithy]

Because why not :D

[@ThreeXcore]

wow, your mind works in amazing ways! You mix/compare psychology and natural evolution in a facinating way. Good work!

[@camilo12369]

I remembered ESS, described in The selfish gene, chapter 5: aggression: stability and the selfish machine, Richard Dawkins. I would never have imagined this would apply there. Thanks man! your videos are quite amazing ;)

[@Gytax0]

Well this really sounds like Nash Equilibrium.

[@filipskater]

You just described capitalism :)

[@Markus9705]

Which is one of the most horrible concepts mankind have ever come up with.

[@filipskater]

Yep - eating and living on the expense of your neighbours is good. Working hard to earn money is bad.

[@filipskater]

goo.gl/qHP9Bk

[@corebore7o7]

Markus9705 which economic structure do you prefer?

[@Markus9705]

Corey Minich A free market without capitalism.

[@TheUlitamateStunt]

I might be mistaken, but I think that the airport over near where I live actually has a line that people must stand behind unless going out to collect their bag. Not a perfect fix to the problem, but it does help.

[@firdacz]

Exactly what I was thinking about as a solution. The only better solution would be a computer finding and delivering your own baggage as the people come in a line to grab it (or kind of "reservation system" wich will allow you to sit down in the time it needs to pick your baggage).

[@matthewmichaelson9806]

There is also the advantage of protection from naturally occurring forest fires for survival, when it comes to having leaves higher up. but point taken :)

[@aries_9130]

This could be a pplied to so many other situations in everyday life.. oh dear.

[@johng-nd6wm]

One could argue that it is applied to everything.

[@DJ-Ophidian]

This bit is almost literally taken from Richard Dawkins' Greatest Show on Earth, which is an awesome book for anyone interested in anything to do with life and evolution.

[@mawns]

I think he also addresses it in The Selfish Gene.

[@RickM507]

Måns Grebäck yes! I just finished it. Very good book.

[@ThomasDohn]

He did talk about it in The Selfish Gene. He refers to it as an ESS - Evolutionarily Stable Strategy.

[@robertdimauro8353]

Great summary, Brady!!

[@rodneyrockat2273]

Very nice thank you ,I love your videos specially the nature ones with trees . Can't live without our trees :) def subscribed can't wait to hear more ...

[@GetOutsideYourself]

Put mirrors above the baggage carousel so people further away can see -- or even better a display showing the bags being loaded so people have an idea what's coming. This eliminates the need for competition, which will naturally lead people to not be so pushy. It would be the same as having sun lamps all the way down the canopy so leaves below the highest ones could get light.

[@asdasdasdasd7483]

the problem still exists: you need to go through a wall of morons standing in front of you to get to your bag

[@stevenan93]

i could totally see you hosting your own Cosmos show

[@kappajump1]

He basically does.

[@ZeratulRahl]

I didn't realise this until now but I want that so much!

[@palonazo]

Zeratul Rahl Cosmos is for the masses, which is a good thing. Veritasium is more "advanced" than cosmos. You can't do a mainstream science show without dumbing the science down. Let's not dumb down Veritasium or anything its host does.

[@LearnWithScientia]

You are very easy to understand. Great video.

[@logansmith7719]

Great video, those are both good examples of the prisoner's dilemma. You should've mentioned that in the video. The prisoner's dilemma is fascinating.

[@matsv201]

Well, i think, there might be a solution to this problem. On some (most?) airport there is a stand back line. I Line you suppose to stand behind to wait for your baggage. Its always straigt. Making the line, Sinus or triagular shape would pack people in a angle. Also, you can make it step up or down

[@AlexanderKrivacsSchrder]

People don't respect the line, and airports rarely have anyone enforce the line, so you end up with the line being useless.

[@matsv201]

True.. thats why i want a offset in the floor insteed.

[@DFX2KX]

Alexander Krivács Schrøder Most of the airports I've been to over the years have bad people in TSA outfits giving nasty glares at those people looking to get jumpy and run for their bags. But that might be a fluke, I dunno.

[@AlexanderKrivacsSchrder]

DFX2KX Things might be different in the US; I haven't really been to many US airports.

[@matsv201]

Yea, thats is my experience in the US. Also, its not that bad in all country's, i Asia it usually is not that bad.

[@DodderingOldMan]

I'm trying not to be depressed by this. Alas, it seems that selfishness is woven into the fabric of life itself. This isn't exactly news to me, of course.

[@SamuelJFord]

Unless there is some advantage to a gene by being nice - like a gene for caring for siblings.

[@Mystro256]

***** Indeed; some trees have evolved to provide nutrients to smaller trees of their species to help them grow taller.

[@MichailShaposhnikov]

LOLZ, Brady at the end, hahahaha, BTW, Derek, great vid, I love how you can tie in natural tendencies into human social behavior. Well made, please keep making more :)

[@Babbyclubber]

Thanks for the interesting comparison. Keep thinking

[@Aeghamedic]

The Forest of Friendship would just be a bunch of bushes.

[@ataarono]

nah, It would be grass

[@Zandonus]

I GET IT. THIS IS WHY COMMUNISM DOESN'T WORK. I UNDERSTAND NOW.

[@yourfullofsheite]

***** Capitalism is not inherently stable.It can produce wealth though.

[@jimmysmith3095]

WHAT? You clearly don't have any political knowledge whatsoever. The comparison between communism and capitalism is a completely different comparison from this. In communism all income is the same so no one can be mutated in the market to be richer than everyone else but the government. Science is different, where there isn't an indefinite law, so a tree would be able to be mutated.

[@moonspear]

The logic you use here Veritasium is identical to that used in the Bertrand's model of perfect competition (in economics). The general gist is that firms set the price for their products, and consumers will buy from the cheapest seller. While it would be more advantageous for multiple firms to collude (aka fixing the price) and all choose to charge the same, high price, so they all receive the same high profits, any one firm could charge just a little bit less (undercut) the other firms, and steal the entire market of consumers. Eventually, the theory goes that each firm will continue to undercut the others until each firm is charging a price where MC = MR (marginal cost and marginal revenue; aka where the cost of making 1 more unit of product is equal to the revenue of selling 1 more unit of product, aka the price of the product). Yay economics!

[@darao9526]

Veritasium's videos make everything so interesting and easy to understand and seems like a really nice guy!

[@unvergebeneid]

It's called a Nash Equilibrium and that's what's gonna ruin the planet in the end. We all know what we should do but we won't move before anybody else does. I still think that teaching children about Nash Equilibria in school would make the world a better place. Being fully aware of this problem is the first step to fixing it.

[@KevinementD]

I think everyone is very aware of this problem. Being able to call it by a name won't help much.

[@unvergebeneid]

KevinementD I'm not too sure about this. Being able to pinpoint why things are the way they are and why people behave the way they do can go a long way. I mean the lesson here is that things can still go right if a critical mass ignores the freeriders. Normal human behavior unfortunately is: "Hey, these assholes are exploiting the system, no way I'm gonna let them trick me like that!" And then everybody turns asshole. The realization that there will always be freeriders but as long as their numbers remain below a certain threshold, they don't have the power to break the system, could be quite important.

[@Ichijoe2112]

The Forest of Friendship formally known as the Everfree Forest....

[@Cdubb1967]

Thanks for that concise explanation Brady.

[@Geolojas]

This. This a thousand times. This explains most traffic jams I have endured. Great video.

[@DudokX]

You've made CGP Grey sick! meh ... :)

[@burnhamaj]

And he keeps on making videos like nothing happened...

[@spelunkerd]

There's another, evolutionary factor -- it's not all about cooperative living. The most efficient organisms are those that can compete at the highest level, so the species that can promote reproduction of the most fit organisms stands more likely to survive. As artificial as it may seem, having a competition for growth rate with the reward of reproduction promotes evolution towards the most fit germ line. Without competition within the species, the door opens for other species to find a way to exploit weakness. In a way, being tall is just an abstract marker, like fancy feathers, that hints to underlying efficiency.

[@DarkInsanePyro]

Nice re-cap of what was said in the video. =)

[@Lenrr]

Acecasanova its not genetic evolution, its behavioural 'evolution'. the whole point of evolution is to 'get more than the rest'. :D

[@gamr789]

Prisoners Dilema, we can see it all around us; like in traffic congestions, in advertisements, in competition among firms, etc, etc. And as trees, and baggage claim, it can bring both a nice picnic or an airport nightmare

[@iamstoned4life]

A wonderfully analogous video. I've never had this problem though.

[@Tfin]

What if the maples formed a union and demanded equal rights?

[@Mathhead2000]

They would get them, obviously. Wouldn't you respect a talking tree? Have you seen how huge those things are?

[@Tfin]

... Huge? _They've_ claimed the oaks are just too lofty, and they grab up all the light.

[@anglopicker]

be a fern man, chill, you don't need all that light.

[@FaridAbbasbayli]

Except that unlike trees, we are intelligent beings, capable of communication. Tell that one idiot to step back!

[@KalaMiDeviL]

It's never only one. And weirdly, whatever language you speak, as you're trying to tell the people at the baggage carousel to step back, the amount of people who can speak your language decreases rapidly.

[@IAmSkip94]

Sadly with the way some people are, that's arguable.

[@FaridAbbasbayli]

Parties? What are parties? And come on, if it becomes a social norm everybody will react naturally. Like when you would tell somebody to shut up in the library or the cinema. Politely, of course. At fist. Edit: At first*. Use of fists not recommended, unless really necessary.

[@FaridAbbasbayli]

KalaMiDeviL I'm pretty sure that 90% of people who are at the airport know "please", "stand" and "back" in English, cause y'know, chances are high that they came from abroad where they needed some knowledge of the international language.

[@IncandescentFlame]

That was a very interesting description of tree growth.

[@ThomasGiles]

Wow! Never thought about it that way. Very clever. What I tend to do when waiting for luggage is step back anyway, find a nice place to sit, and just wait until there are less people and I can see the bags.

[@ElectroMonkeyz]

Trees are such jerks.... I always knew it!

[@SDsc0rch]

this is just like sales.. there's always some *ss that underbids everyone else, driving the price lower - making it super hsrd for everyone else to get ahead... : /

[@typicallucas]

Derek, at 1:04 when you say "begs the question," I think you mean "brings up the question." Begging a question is a type of logical fallacy. Thanks for the entertaining and educational content

[@AlanCouch]

Nice video. What's with apparently stable anomalies like Allocasurina nana Heath I wonder?

[@IMortage]

Isn't that just an extended case of the prisoner dilemma? Or rather, for an arbitrary number of players, the so called 'tragedy of the commons'. Basically, just applied game theory.

[@5nefarious]

Yeah, I kept thinking about that throughout the video. It does seem to be a case of tragedy of the commons.

[@myspacebarisbroken4549]

Quick guide to Veritasium videos: Step 1: If you haven't already, SUBSCRIBE! Step 2: Like the video. Step 3: Watch the video and enjoy.

[@Gairhym]

For one, i loved the concept. it's something that never crossed my mind and is such a good analogy of how we work as people, or in fact, as any living thing. second of all, nice park. :)

[@ninjasteve1987]

What you have just described is humanity in general.

[@libertynerd2562]

This is also what prevents a free and democratic society from being a real thing. There's always someone (or something, in case of an organization) who wants to game the system, ruin it for the 90 percent of people who are honest, and loving.

[@Admiralhall2000]

I agree. Democracy simply doesn't work

[@cout112]

I would say 90 percent of people who wants to game the system

[@libertynerd2562]

Still, it's better than other government systems.

[@cout112]

I don't disagree with democracy, and i think trying to game the system and win is a natural human behaviour. This is why I say that most of the people want to game the system, but is not a bad thing.

[@libertynerd2562]

Democracy isn't perfect, but is surely beats the other systems. That's why I support it. This video shows how no one will ever be 100 percent democratic, but there are plenty of countries out there (and no, I am not referring to the US) that show it is possible to be pretty close. Scandinavian countries show this quite well, along with others throughout the world.

[@ishwar8119]

Takes Derek 4 minutes to explain it but brady takes 10 seconds.ROFL

[@Trevmyster17]

Simply an awesome video man!

[@TheDrB0B]

Wow, it's great to see you're working with Brady!! Will we see more videos with him?

[@SamuelJFord]

Evolutionary stable strategies! He's betrayed his beloved physics and joined the statisticians and biologists!

[@NowhereNN]

I want to see an experiment with this at an airport. Someone with a megaphone trying to coordinate this principle. :P

[@jensbond93]

In Sweden we have a big yellow line that says "stand behind line". Works pretty good if u ask me.

[@MikeBMW]

Love it! I always stand a few feet away from the baggage carousel. But, then I'm 6 Ft. tall and I can see over most who crowd it. :)

[@Edited6]

Airports should have a no standing section a few meters from claim, you can step in for your bag but that's it. Would fix the problem you describe and also give a bit more room for people to stand.

[@VR_Wizard]

I see a conection to creating ever advancing armies all around the world with Russia and the US trying to be on top of the list of most powerful countrys but it cost a lot of money for these countries to sustain this position.

[@TopeA8]

+Christoph Geske here is a reply I made on a Nigerian forum...inspired my your comment. I will post the whole thing here. Ultimately Military Expansion is largely a waste of human endeavour. However the trick.....is to make it an incorporated part of the economy. Any country that boosts its military without aligning it, with its economy is a stupid country. This war against Boko Haram.....is also innately going to create many social problems, because valuable capital is being diminished. Half of those military assets will be irredeemable after the war, either by destruction or by maintenance incapacity. So it is ironic, that by fighting to end a war...you are creating more problems. The only way that Nigeria can survive decades of strife caused by this military expansion, is to create technical capacity. It is not SIMPLY a matter of nationalization for the sake of nationalization. It is simply a matter of creating growth out from the vacuum. This war with Boko Haram is more than a fight against terrorists....it will destroy this country economically for decades. You are losing productivity, you are losing physical assets, you are losing investment AND you are sinking money into depreciating assets. Just like the video.......explains that the natural selection process of how trees mutate is inefficient, military expansion is also inefficient. The only saving grace is when it leads to innovation. GEJ started some programs and Buhari has now echoed similar sentiments...but we need to go above and beyond. If you do not innovate....do not build a military! This is not unique to Nigeria but to every single country in the world. I don't just mean building a few APCs or producing a few rifles...but we need to be doing some serious R&D here, patenting etc. but I think we are probably past the global equilibrium, where even innovation cannot justify military expansion for the world....most countries in the world are certainly losing more from this farce than they gain from it. But obviously, as long as others expand...you must join the madness.

Wow really interesting Sociology analogy you got there. :) Unfortunately, I think we should be taught to be smarter and more rational, so as to avoid our selfish nature. :D Tree mutations are random, but we humans shouldn't be just "random". :P

Of course we are. But what I meant is: Genetic variants that give a focal advantage are random. Attitudes are not. We can decide (and be taught) whether we want to act selfishly or not. Is it more understandable that way? Sorry if I wasn't clear. English is not my first language.

[@navazacraft]

Nahuel Méndez Diodati That's true, but If I had a mutation that would let me "grow a higher trunk" without as much effort as you would need to put into it, why should I, as a human, care about other people's happiness? I mean, of course it could lead to some kind of aggressiveness towards me, and it could also hurt the people I love, if there's any; but other than that, the best option would be to gain as much benefict as possible, as trees try to do.

navazacraft But as you said, the greater benefit is actually achieved by being at least a little bit kind. You earn love, you earn rewards, you earn happiness. Humans are selfish, yeah, but at the same time, most cannot live without the approval of at least SOME significant others. If we were taught to be responsible and rational, we could fight our "short-sighted instincts" and aim for longer term happiness and welfare.

[@navazacraft]

Well, that's assuming everyone would aim for the same goal. If we were taught to be responsible and rational, we could cooperate with other people, but only as long as we all wanted to do the same thing. If, for instance, the trees of a forest would want to erradicate bamboo from it (and I'm assuming bamboos would still want to survive), that education you're talking about would not work at all, since there is not a common goal they both could share, but the opposite (the existence of one's goal implies the failure of the another one at achieving his own ones)

I agree, but I think we should, indeed, aim for a common goal at least in some general way. :)

[@pathologicaldoubt]

Very interesting video!

[@SilkMonster0]

This is a very interesting point. In economics we found this same result in enterprises. If several firms collude in order to have prices higher than they usually would (a cartel), every firm has an incentive to lower their prices and then all the other firms would follow that firm and get their prices lower. This is a very classic example used in game theory.

[@lider1179]

how about 'standing behind a yellow line' as a rule at airports? :P

[@sherbetwillow6752]

We fall to the lowest common denominator because anything else requires compliance by those not willing to comply! We cannot expect conforming behavior from the nonconforming. We can't even get people to not text and drive. I've seen on multiple occasions drivers texting with both hands and their head pointed down at their phone. They are the tree that grew "too" tall. Those genes don't have a bright future. Yet at the airport, we can either wait for the crowds to die down, try to cut in when we see our bag..... or join the rush to the front-line bags party. Your decision. I see a similar phenomenon with the same people rushing to stand up and then wait to get off the plane. I choose to stay seated. Sure, you may want to stretch, but how about those guys who stand while still in front of their seats? They can't even stand up all the way because they would hit their head. Surely, that is not stretching. Impatience? Are they just standing because "they can"?

[@lider1179]

doesn't hurt to try..

[@zmail8566]

Police the trees aka bourgeoisie :)

[@professorbland]

this is the same kind of game theory that explains arms races, why world peace and universal equality are impossible. Thanks!

[@ominousplatypus380]

I wouldn't say that they're impossible, people just need to be able to trust that nobody breaks the rules. Unfortunately there always seems to be someone that wants to grow taller than others and it's uncertain whether we'll ever reach a state where everyone can trust eachother. I don't think we will which is unfortunate. I'm just saying that theoretically it could be possible.

[@professorbland]

you know what they say... shit in one hand and theorize in the other...

[@strenght755]

great simple video

[@ThePureLegend95]

This episode is really intelligent!! Thanks for uploading! :D