Why Universal Blue doesn't cater to "Linux users"

[@the-real-matthartley]

So.Much.Truth. I say this as me (Matt Hartley) AND as the Linux Support Lead for Framework Computer. I have personally switched folks to this (Bazzite/Bluefin) because it just WORKS. (drops mic)

[@andrewcook495]

I'm one of those folks! It's an amazing experience on my Framework 13.

[@andrewcook495]

I've come from a "traditional" Linux background, but tried to approach Bazzite with an open mind, ignoring my prejudices about things like Flatpak and.... it's actually a *great* experience. Things generally just work. It's something I could recommend to someone who doesn't have the time or skills to mess around with configuration files. I don't dual boot Windows anymore - there's no need. Thanks to the Bazzite team for all your hard work!

[@sebastianbauer4768]

It has become my first choice to install for people that are not tech savvy and where I’m supposed to provide all the support. Even if there is a problem it’s usually with a flatpak which means I can easily replicate it and find a solution before visiting. It’s also great for remote troubleshooting since it never failed to the point the system is without network as that’s handled by the base layer.

[@aednichols]

I've lasted longer with Bazzite than any previous desktop Linux experiment. My top requirement is that I can install software get updates continually and the system absolutely never breaks. It has performed great in that respect!

[@OraOraOra]

Cool reaction, Jorge! Universal Blue changed my view on the Linux Desktop. Bluefin on the Framework and Bazzite on the HTPC, great combo! The NerdNest Podcast is so cool, would be awesome, to see you in there.

[@craigers0521]

as a linux user since pre-ubuntu days... i love bazzite. for my gaming rig where i just want to play games (and watch some youtube) its been great to finally kick windows to the curb. all my periphs work (with minimal udev mucking around), everything i need i have in flatpak or appimage, i havent had to touch ostree personally. the peace of mind i get with upgrades and rollbacks is so worth it. can't wait to see wayland finally take shape, with better VRR, HDR and desktop scaling, and personally looking forward to budgie DE. Amazing job jorge, love what you and the team are doing.

[@JorgeCastro]

Which udev rules? Maybe we can just ship them ootb.

[@DankGank]

@@JorgeCastro Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but you occasionally need to change a few rules to get USB device recognition when using a Mayflash DolphinBar to use Wii Controllers

[@hueypautonoman]

I've been using Linux for 20 years, but Bazzite is the only OS I run in my living room on my TV. Even my kids use it.

[@theesquag]

I admin rhel systems for a career and was really tired of windows but didn't want to figure out how gaming on linux works. Bazzite has been perfect for me!

[@mat_hmm]

I have been using Bazzite on my GPD Win 4 for around 6 months now and I am immensely enjoying the experience so far. One thing that is absolutely delightful from a user perspective is the website, what let's you select the proper iso for your hardware and the desktop environment. What is great is that after you pick the options it just shows you the 1 proper image you should use, while other distros are usually listing all their versions, which says nothing to an inexperienced user (and for my Win 4 it shows a video on how to configure this specific device with plugins). If the era of the Linux desktop will ever come, it's thanks to ease-of-entry features like this.

[@inertia_dagger]

my employer handed me a work laptop, M1 MBP. since then, I had no desire to tinker with Linux, it just more and more tiring. I'm using aurora on my personal laptop (with arch under distrobox and flatpak for most GUI stuff) and happy with it. thank you for your work

[@thesaigoneer]

Way to go, Jorge! Still humming away on my BlueBuild KDe and ain't looking back. It just works! Great to see you and all contributors are getting the acknowledgements you deserve and specifically focussing on the end-user and waaayyy less on us neckbeards ;-)

[@alexisdumas84]

But yeah, I'm an advanced Linux user and software developer and I've been *loving* my Universal Blue-based custom image (via BlueBuild). Thanks!

[@Sakurina]

I was very close to returning my ROG Ally before installing Bazzite. It is a gamechanger and I’m using the desktop side of the OS more and more as I become increasingly frustrated with Apple and Microsoft pushing into AI. Good job Bazzite contributors!

[@AlvaroBurns]

Nice! I started to use Silverblue because it is super easy if you don't want to mess with stuff. And that's what I like about the Universal Blue project.

[@VektrumSimulacrum]

Bazzite and Aurora have been great. For my gaming PC and "work" laptop that's exactly what I want. I just want to turn it on and not have to mess with anything. The few problem I've had were not Ublue issues at all. IT totally change the campus infrastructure so that was a couple weeks of waiting for it to get sorted out. So far I haven't had to do any tinkering or tweaking. I just turn it on and go. 👍

[@MartinEvans]

Think the problem comes down to perception a lot of people using Linux tout how easy and welcoming it is, while at the same time putting people off of using it by making huge deals of small (imo mostly biased opinions) issues. Ublue overall tries to just say "Look we fixed this and made it work repeatedly" and a lot of long-time Linux tinkerers hate it (including me at times, it makes it hard to break!! rofl) Keep it up mate, the work all you guys do is above and beyond, I can't thank you enough!

[@FuzzCheck]

This is what I always wanted! Linux kernel is capable for all of this and more and Bazzite delivers.

[@Joshua-Studies]

I've personally been enjoying the Ublue projects. Bazzite runs on my gaming PC as I need it to just function for gaming and a few other misc task. My laptop runs Bluefin for my hobbyist development work. Considering Ucore for my home server but haven't set aside the time for that project yet. Keep up the great work.

[@unclefester9113]

I think the Bazzite install wizard is Amazing. (However) I'm totally not a gamer. It would be a great - if there was a "wizard" for Univesalblue or Aurora. Both Universalblue and Aurora - are wonderfully pain free and easy to use.....

[@MegaManNeo]

I don't think I need to replace SteamOS on my Deck if it gives me a similar experience but I'm always looking for something to put on my AyaNeo when Windows 10 goes EoL. On my desktop and laptops I'm using Linux partially exclusive and partially next to Windows for up to two decades and I really don't want to deal with anything weird. If there's a base distro that like SteamOS has its core components updated separately and points me to Flatpaks rather than its own packages for my own stuff, that's sounds like a good thing to me. Especailly since I reached the point where I want a computer just to work and Linux definitely can be like that while having current stuff added to it.

[@npaladin2000]

I keep trying to tell people this. I'm a Linux server admin by day. I know what I'm doing...but I really don't want my recreation to feel like work; I don't want to have to tinker to play a game. I want something that just works...oh and doesn't push out unwanted updates that spy on me, so Windows is out. The Linux As a Flex crowd is never going to go away but there's more models needed for Linux to expand it's presence, and I'm thinking Aroura and Bazzite are just the thing I can recommend to my non-technical friends and family.

[@JorgeCastro]

I'm done with the starter dungeon I am moving on to the end game now, heh.

[@hdkv]

I'm a traditional Linux user, but I really like Bazzite on both my gaming rig and Steam Deck. The notion of not having to tinker with the OS all the time ten years ago sold me my first MacBook, and now, when I'm getting older, I'm moving towards distros that don't give me a headache. Flatpak all the way, stable system (which is quite unusual for being a Fedora derivative!), it just makes me able to get shit done. And when and if I want to tinker with something there's enough room to do so - I made it to work on encrypted RAID0, after all. Maybe I'll just getting older, but for me tinkering with Linux is a chore, not a pleasure. I want to do my work, to play my games and forget what runs below my apps. Windows don't give me that (especially 11), macOS mostly gives me that but is not suitable for modern gaming, traditional Linux doesn't give me that. Bazzite does, tho. Thanks for your hard work.

[@JorgeCastro]

> tinkering with Linux is a chore, not a pleasure Hah yeah.If I'm going to tinker with something it's going to be the thing I'm working on, not the OS.

[@RetiredInThailand]

It’s not so much the ‘tinkering’, I actually don’t mind that part … it’s the recovering from the tinkering … before I ‘tinker I spend 10 seconds in the BTRFS Assistant (flatpak install) and make a checkpoint … if I screw up, no biggie, roll back and try again, or get back to productive work!

[@danielmugas3009]

linux need its freedom, but it also need projects like bazzite, we have to prove that linux is as o more reliable than windows for normal users who dont care about wayland or systemd.

[@KingKrouch]

I like Bazzite, it's a great starter distro that fulfills a specific purpose. I use it on my Steam Deck, and it's a pretty good choice for an HTPC setup. I personally just wish there was an option to keep the Steam Deck branding (or to do something like using the official generic Steam Big Picture mode startup video, if you aren't running on the Deck), and the updating process was a bit better (updating hangs in Game Mode and I have to update through the terminal in desktop mode). That and I had to manually install Decky Loader with the pre release build rather than the option through the setup process, because I was using the Steam Family Sharing Beta. I'd imagine this stuff is going to improve over time though. Outside of those few things, I don't really have any issues with it, it's really reliable. There's like a dozen other options for people who want more control with the cost of more complexity and things not being pre-configured.

[@moffichu9150]

as a long time Linux user, I respect the vision to make a distro thats streamlined and easy to understand and use. I don't know much about Bazzite, but i'm curious to know how it differs from other simple to use distros like Mint or Pop

[@KiGeprak]

Me too! I hope there's a comparison on it

[@RetiredInThailand]

The difference is the kernel/linux is isolated and protected from the GNU/Application portion of you computer. The kernel/linux part is the “immutable” part, which is updated only with well tested and supported packages from Fedora ( and protected with a BTRFS file system where if anything does go wrong at Fedora or Ublue and they ship a broken update, you simply do a quick ‘rollback’ command and get back to your work while you wait for a fixed update to be released. Using flatpaks, Brew, and Distrobox, means you have a pretty well managed application layer that doesn’t touch the OS (kernel/Linux) layer, so it’s really hard to install something that breaks system so as to prevent you from booting up. Also, with minimal effort, just installing the BTRFS Assistant flatpak, you can use BTRFS checkpoints to protect your applications in the same way it protects your OS … checkpoint, mess around, if it doesn’t work out, the rollback and no harm done (I do this just about every day trying out things that previously didn’t want to do in fear of breaking something that would require hours of my time to unwind … now I don’t worry about that anymore!

[@vanrox]

I've been using my Legion Go with Bazzite since day two, it's the ultimate experience I expect from a handheld

[@wilfridtaylor]

Man I installed Aurora on my laptop and everything works out of the box. This thing has a sof based sound card in it so it doesn't even do that on windows lol. I was getting ready to have to layer a heap of stuff in ostree to get it working but was pleasantly surprised.

[@diazeriksen6382]

You're right about the audience. I know in theory how powerful and customizable etc Linux is. But I don't want to have to learn the past 30 years of historical crap on what programs to use and what tweaks 99% of people use; why can't a good default config exist? I love Bazzite. I get all the benefits of a highly tuned Linux gaming setup, curated by people who already know wtf they're doing.

[@JohnSmith-lc1ml]

How out of touch do you have to be to think that the average gamer who knows nothing about operating systems doesnt have an opinion on SystemD. Just last week my grandma was ranting about how systemd is bloated and we should all be using runit instead.

[@Destide]

People complain that you don't have control over your system like with arch, when the template is sitting there so you can get a nix like/ arch dot files setup going if you want or you can distrobox most config files. I really think a lot of it is down to having to learn a slightly different approach.

[@DankGank]

I personally love the idea of taking the pretentious attitude out of Linux and doubling down on everything it can do to give people a stable, user-friendly experience without ever opening a terminal

[@drfyzziks1]

I'm not entirely sure the pretentious attitude has been "taken out" here - more like it's just been transmogrified into a different form 😆

[@PatrickOuthier]

Yeah I gave it a shot on my PC and everything ran well, then I went to add my Steam library. That's on ZFS pool and I didn't even think to check for ZFS support... My bad, I really like it though just not for my setup at the moment.

[@OneQuarterLife]

Sadly since ZFS will never be upstream and it lags the kernel it's just never going to be an option in Bazzite.

[@tohur]

I run my own custom image I pull from bazzite and been daily driving it for months now.. This is the future of Linux desktop but like you said atm we are in the transition, but all these "elitist" need to be ready for when the day comes they are NOT the target audience for the majority Linux distros. because Atomic desktops are the future and how we grow Linux on the desktop.. the day is coming when the current typical Linux distro becomes a niche in the community and Atomic/immutable desktops are the norm.

[@diotitus]

That's awesome that your custom Linux OS works really well for you. I'm glad that you're to use what works for you. However, where I disagree is on your stance on immutability. It's good for IoT devices and specialized appliances or devoces like consoles, but not for desktops or servers. It would completely negate the entire point of using Linux on a desktop system, and you'd lose a lot of control over your system. Keep immutable distros as an optional, but not as the only and mandated option.

[@alexisdumas84]

This elitist dismissive attitude that immutable operating systems are only good for internet of things or appliances or something is absolute horseshit and I'm tired of hearing it from the Linux grognard crowd. You don't actually lose any control or flexibility. You just move when that control happens: under Fedora Atomic, it happens when your image is built, in a continuous integration system in the cloud that then serves images as updates to your local machine if they build correctly and doesn't serve them if the build fails, thereby protecting you and providing repeatability and reproducibility, and ensuring that your changes are replayed on top of each new update instead of each update being played on top of the changes you've made, meaning that your changes are much *more* resilient to updates. The model of configurability that atomic immutable distros follow actually gives you far more control because it means that you can essentially create a custom Linux distribution for yourself in an extremely easy and declarative way that's almost entirely automated. Its just that you do it in a new way, instead of the control you exercise happening willy nilly at run time with you monkeying around with a running system. The idea that an immutable distro is completely uncustomizable is just false. Also, even at runtime, you can still layer and un-layer packages and release between different images and customize all of the system's config files. So I'm not even sure what flexibility you actually need that you lose really? It's just that the packages you layer or un-layer are kept track of and applied as overlays on an immutable core. So you always know what changes you've made and that you have a known working system underneath those changes. And pristine unmodified copies of the configuration files are always kept so you can instantly get a diff between the default configuration and the configuration you have. That seems like a pure improvement to me.

[@JorgeCastro]

@@diotitus > you'd lose a lot of control over your system. This entire project has been showing that this is not true for years on the desktop. This tech has been used in servers for over a decade.

[@alexisdumas84]

@diotitus also, I'm going to note that the vast majority of people - including many highly technically proficient software developer types - don't ***remotely*** need the kind of customizability that immutable distros make harder or might remove in your mind. The vast majority of us just needs to be able to install terminal tools in a container or into our home directory with brew, and GUI apps with flatpak, distrobox, or Bottles. You only need the kind of full flexibility Arch Linux, or Gentoo or whatever you had in mind if you're using Linux not as a tool to actually get work done, but as an end in itself that you want to endlessly tinker with and don't mind if it gets broken constantly. If you're just trying to use a free operating system to get your work done, then nobody needs to be able to swap systemd for openRC or some shit. And no, before you spew some dismissive nonsense about how the only software developers who could possibly use an immutable distro are web developers for something, that is absolutely fucking false. I do all kinds of system and game engine programming in my free time, and I can very much successfully do all of it on my Universal Blue OS.

[@diotitus]

@@JorgeCastro Keywords: "Used in servers..." - Enough said. Look, I'm not specifically saying anything against Bazzite. I actually really like the distribution and the project and I think you guys are making a really good OS. What I am against, however, is immutability essentially becoming the one and only option for desktop Linux. It's fine to be offered alongside in parallel to traditional versions of Linux as an option for users that want that kind of distro, but don't force it to be the standard. All immutability does is essentially create a severely locked down variant of the Linux operating system that is at that point no different than Mac and Windows. I don't even use Linux personally, but I don't want to see it become what Windows and macOS are today. What makes Linux different from Windows and Mac is the amount of flexibility, modularity, privacy, and control that it provides to users. I promise I'm trying to be neither toxic nor a troll, but rather trying to bring in some logic and reasoning to the conversation. Please at least be willing to consider the other side before you and other distro developers decide to start pushing this immutability standard. Once again, I'm not saying the immutable distributions don't have their place, but I am asking you to not push for the immutable model to become a mandated standard and the only option for the Linux platform.

[@mattvisaggio]

Bazzite rocks!

[@NexGen-3D]

Hi all, I will go out on a limb here and say, that Bazzite is no better or worse than SteamOS, but it allows those that purchased a game console other than a Steam Deck to experience that same out of box console like experience, I purchased a Legion Go, and I just hate Windows 11 on it, I already owned a Steam Deck so I know what I was missing, Windows lasted about 5 minutes on the Legion before I wiped it and installed Bazzite, and every update, has quickly fixed all the little issues I came across, and one major one that Steam had neglected, I had the Dev at HHD fix, was extremely happy, I actually love the approach of the OS, just like I appreciate Valves work, I can say, after using Bazzite for a while, I now have Fedora on a spare PC, just for testing, I find myself jumping into the terminal less and less as these operating systems mature, I would just like to see Gamescope work on Intel iGPU's, this go's for Bazzite, Nobara, HoloISO and ChimeraOS, all are good options to be honest, but Bazzite seems to be the fastest to fix issues and support machines better.

[@boirfanman]

Yeah, I think that's what its for. For a handheld, its probably great. For an actual desktop PC, with an NVidia 3060ti, its a bit of a dud. It should be: Download; Install; Start game. That's what they're going for. It doesn't pull it off. To be fair, over my two week or so period of trying different Linux Distributions, none of them pull this off. The ones claiming this are simply lying. I'm guessing to themselves in hope to be the first. When Valve or NVidia pull it off, for an NVidia card user, to be supported with zero effort, then Linux will finally be viable for the masses. Most of us will be able to leave Windows behind at that point. As of right now, no distro has managed it for me.

[@NexGen-3D]

@@boirfanman Yes, your issue is purely around the nVidia GPU, Valve will never support it properly, as they have no need to, I also have a HTPC with an RTX 2080 in it, and all of these Gaming distributions are terrible on it, but they are awesome on AMD, as I have multiple systems running All AMD setups, and its almost point and shoot with them, its like night and day difference, I have been an nVidia fan boy since the Riva TNT days, but the RTX 20 series was a let down for me, and I have now switched to AMD, they present better bang for my buck and are more supported across all operating systems, even Mac.

[@boirfanman]

@@NexGen-3D I wanted an RX 6800 (XT). Couldn't get one. It would've been easy then, right? Until it's like that with all graphics cards, no distro can claim to be ready for the masses for gaming. Maybe in another five+ years.

[@NexGen-3D]

@@boirfanman Yes you are right, but its not the fault of the dev's, its nVidia, I have been messing with Linux for probably 25yrs, on and off, and it was really crap back in the day, but since the Steam Deck hit the market it has gotten shockingly good.

[@bigpod]

@@boirfanman im not using basite but bluefin and i after installing steam all i have to do is dowload game install game start game its rarely that i have to do anything maybe set steam to allow proton for non proton titles

[@JimmySolution]

I would love to jump on Aurora and make it my daily driver, however, I think it is still a little bit too slow, even when booting. Actually, I don't care about updates being slow, especially when they run in the background. But I do care about the booting time and apps in general to be rather faster or at least at Ubuntu level of snappiness. At the moment I think it's a little bit too slow, containers don't really seem to install other Linux distros easily. I had issues with Arch and the installation of AUR inside of the container. I am sure that in the next 1-2 years you guys are going to smoothen things up and add even more GUI, and even more extensive newbie documentation. Honestly, I can't wait to ditch Debian and switch to Aurora (KDE fan here).

[@JorgeCastro]

systemd-analyze will help you find out what's up with your boot time. Not sure what's up with your arch container, ours are set up for instant launch so there shouldn't be any delay when you open it.

[@lucolesco]

I had problems with the default Arch Linux container. As soon as I moved over to the Toolbox Arch Linux container, everything seemed to work properly.

[@bigpod]

at the end of the day traditional linux users will always bog themselfs down with issues like spacebar heaters(and yes if its a bug it should be fixxed whether you rely on it or not) and bloat. And someone needed to cut that loop and honestly i think UBlue did that, and im very happy and proud that i can say i left a fingerprint or 2 on ublue as well

[@Zeni-th.]

Literally just another distro lol

[@JorgeCastro]

I know lol.