Why US Malls Are Dying (And Why European Malls Aren't)

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US malls are more dead than the Metaverse.
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Fortepan / Urbán Tamás
Fortepan / Gábor Viktor
Fortepan / Magyar Rendőr
Fortepan / Erdei Katalin
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[@bafg182]

As an Australian, I was shocked when I discovered American malls don’t have supermarkets in them. I think that’s been a big part of keeping Australian malls relevant, they have all the day-to-day stuff that keeps you going there regularly

[@midgetwars1]

Yep that's the key. When a mall has a Woolies, Coles, Kmart, aldi why wouldn't it be thriving? And the great thing is once the king hitters get there everyone else wants a piece too. So JB, big W, target try to get in on the action which leads to the smaller brands filling out everything. It's also just a walkable neighbour inside a building.

[@fatboyRAY24]

But they do… Nearly ever mall I’ve been to in the US is connected to a target or a Walmart supermarket or a local shopping market💀 istg all you people do is make stuff up. This entire Channel is built on the back of a 3 story tall straw man.

[@soniquecat4745]

Yeah, same in Europe. The supermarket is usually in the back of the Mall, so sometimes you end up going in one of the shops on the way there. I would not go to mall for a candle shop, but I may and will stop in candle shop on a way to get my bread and milk.

[@julieheath6335]

EXTREMELY good point!!

[@Jayayess1190]

Some do.

[@lau8482]

US infrastructure is good for ONE thing: shooting zombie movies, because the buildings are so isolated they can be easily transformed into fortresses.

[@InventorZahran]

Seeing how much Americans stare at their phones while walking around, they might as well already be zombies...

[@axeavier]

@@InventorZahran and they already have a high rate of gun violence at that

[@Mr_Porkpower]

What’s so funny is that it’s not just malls, but most of the suburban neighborhoods, mainly single family homes where the lawn takes up as much area as the house itself. The whole country is built like a shooting range.

[@H4hT53]

Also they already look like post-apocalyptic wastelands, so there is really not much screen dressing needed.

[@bencox3641]

As an American, I don't even want to think about the amount of space and other resources are being wasted because right wing idiots think that letting corporations waste everything is an basic freedom.

[@scandixey4089]

As a European I often stop by the mall simply because I pass through the era, something I don’t think happens in the us

[@earlysda]

Yes, Americans rarely "pass through the era".

[@diegokoszutskisantamaria6221]

​@@earlysdaI think they are constantly passing throug the era of decay...

[@Naomi-yc4fp]

Yeh in UK, it was more of a cluster of shops in somewhat center of the town, it’s normally quite easy to get around there too. The one near me is on the path to the beach, so it’s an easy walk too

[@fredriknumse8991]

I remember going to America for a month living with an American family. They wanted to take us to the mall, which i thought was great. Really wanted to see an American mall. Just so turns out it was an hour drive away, which for them was so normal they didn't even think to mention it.

[@krashd]

I'm starting to understand why "Are we there yet?" is a meme for American kids on road trips.

[@PoochieCollins]

It sounds like they were in a small town not particularly close to a real city, TBF.

[@fredriknumse8991]

@@PoochieCollins Seattle

[@fredriknumse8991]

@@godlike5178 Yeah they were great people, amazing hospitality.

[@sunshineandwarmth]

Not every place in America is Disney World.

[@TheStanislavson]

Malls are dying, but videos about abandoned malls are thriving. So we are heading in the right direction!

[@billyoldman9209]

It's the free market, baby! One man's misery is another's opportunity!

[@Ribulose15diphosphat]

KZbinrs just like lost Places.

[@ashleyshim2078]

​@@billyoldman9209 😂😂😂

[@soundscape26]

Bright Sun Films

[@LucasDimoveo]

@@soundscape26 thanks for the suggestion

[@SomeThingElseYT]

I wonder why our parking lots with one building in the middle of it aren’t doing as well as we had hoped.

[@PandorasFolly]

Nods. Im stealing this quote. I will credit you though and not pretend it is my own clever wit

[@Pyrochemik007]

Because they did not fix traffic by adding 1 more lane. Damn /insert party/

[@ChuckyLi]

It worked for decades.

[@tikket10]

@@ChuckyLi it never worked. americans are just indoctrinated to think so

[@hydrolifetech7911]

​@@ChuckyLi which even in US commercial buildings lifespan is very short

[@e1123581321345589144]

There's another thing European malls do that American ones don't. They keep their parking lots underground, neatly stacked under the building, with elevators for easy access. And, at least here in Romania, the malls usually also host office space on the premise, which really helps with commerce, and being integrated with the rest of the city usually host cultural events such as festivals or exhibitions, so they're also a destination for other stuff than shopping. That helps too

[@polishtheday]

This sounds like the malls I used to go to in Vancouver (British Columbia, not Washington). Most of the ones that originally had large parking lots were converted to underground parking with other buildings - offices and residential - put up on top. Some NIMBYs opposed this at first but they don’t anymore. The reason for this, initially anyway, was lack of space to build on because Vancouver is surrounded by mountains to the north and ocean to the west. To the south and east you have other municipalities that also face restrictions on expansion like farmland, floodplains, more mountains and the U.S. border. When you can’t expand you get creative and/or build higher.

[@maxsnow9952]

in my city we don't have office space in the mall in romania but instead all the fun stuff to do is only inside the mall like pool bowling cinema biliard and let's not forget the profi hotdog

[@krashd]

In the UK the parking spaces are usually on the roof and you travel between the parking levels and the shopping levels via elevators. This works in Europe where the vast majority of visitors tend to come by public transport but it wouldn't work in the US where they tend to have 10 times as many parking spaces as there are room for people in the mall. On Google Earth it is always easy to find the malls, sports stadiums and convention centres in any city because they are the lone building surrounded by 10 square miles of tarmacked parking spaces.

[@vaderladyl]

That is how malls in my country continue thriving as well.

[@lloydtxw]

They don’t have a choice. Population density in Europe is three times what it is in North America. Land use comparisons also don’t make sense as Europe doesn’t have copious amounts of land for new commercial real estate and huge parking lots even if zoning regulations allowed for building them. The land doesn’t exist and the distances are significantly smaller between residence and commerce.

[@amorphousblob]

US malls were never even meant to be this way in the first place. The founder of the mall, Victor Gruen, actually denounced malls as abominations of his original intent: they were supposed to be places to shop, live, with amenities and housing and all sorts of stuff (like a 15-minute/accessible little cityspace). But they ended up as horrible, lifeless, commerce-only spaces surrounded by thick motes of parking lots that took 10 minutes to walk across.

[@niconilo97]

Oh y like communist urban planing in Europe There is that type of space where commercials, public services, associations and housing is blend up together You literally can live without walking more than 200m from your house

[@kevinxu3892]

It’s only starting to get better, with the east coast urban and adjacent linking their malls with mass transit and mixed office and residential areas, but twenty minutes out in the burbs those malls are still the same massive parking lot island design

[@sunshineandwarmth]

Wow. Somebody sure got it wrong,eh?😆😆😆

[@julianfull280]

@@niconilo97 exactly. You don't have to waste time and get stressed in traffic jams. And if you go outside of the 200m radius, it's because you want, for leisure, not because you have to in order to buy food or whatever you want.

[@gideonmele1556]

It’s actually changing to be where they’re mini-cities in the northeast corridor. The massive malls are having some of the buildings knocked down or refurbished and excess parking torn up to build apartments and living areas with (in some areas) rail being laid to connect it all. New ones are also starting to crop up and are effectively strip mall-mall-living area wrapped up within a 10-15 minute walk and at least near me, a train station 5 minutes away and a highway 5minutes away by car. Everything from restaurants to food stores to a theater, etc.

[@Kunori]

I went to America earlier this year, and what struck me about the mall was that it was basically all just clothes. There was like, one gamestop, and a small overpriced food court. No bookshops, no actual electronics shop, nothing else but clothes and accessories. I had to walk most of an hour to get there, too.

[@Denver_____]

I think it’s bc clothing is hard to buy online, so people prefer to go in person to try it out, thus a no brainer for shopping malls to scale those types of stores vs let’s say a store that sells electronics.

[@ArchOfWinter]

US malls used to have more variety. Clothing stores survives only because most people still want to try on new outfits before buying. Everything else is just inconvenient as they can be bought online.

[@justsomeguy5103]

Even in Europe, shopping malls have been 90% clothes and shoes for as long as I can remember.

[@xelasomar4614]

You WALKED!!? How dare you. Lucky for you the people who saw you probably assumed you just got out of a car or were heading to one. ;-)

[@Cincinnatijames]

Electronics Stores in the 80's and 90's moved themselves into big box standalone stores like Bestbuy and Circuit City, look how that has turned out for them.

[@absoutezeo2126]

I honestly appreciate how much this man cares about the infrastructure of a country that he does not inhabit. I wish more people did.

[@balecalduin1993]

Sadly the US urbanization pattern has had in the past and to this day ample repercussions on the rest of the planet. So it's only selfish to care about sprawling US suburbs when you're not living there but are slowly being cooked alive by global warming, have seen the invasion of Iraq and all these US led wars for the control of oil shipping and the supremacy of the US dollar as THE world's main reserve currency, and all the ripple effect it could have on everyone else. If Americans lived like Europeans (not a bad situation to be in compared to most people around the world), they wouldn't have needed fracking to remain a massive oil EXPORTER continuously since the 70s (despite the peak of conventional US oil), wouldn't have needed to bomb Saddam when he ditched the dollar for the euro (yup, THAT was the point), would emit half as much CO² per capita. Oh and also the average American wouldn't be as fat, would be healthier, live longer, wouldn't be so socially isolated and lonely and the real estate price problem wouldn't be as problematic. And they could still be rich, and still be one of the most innovative nations on the planet. It would be a total win-win but oh, these smug Europeans always compare everything to themselves. Wouldn't want to copy THAT, right

[@anon3937]

Hell even most Americans don’t care about the infrastructure in their own country.

[@alucard303]

Yeah the basic concept of these buildings and infrastructure is adapted or exported all around the world.

[@wrfg8025]

It makes him money you silly billy😊

[@PoppySis]

It's cause US urban planning and infrastructure is a disease that's been infecting the rest of the world.

[@AquaCrystalOrb]

Reason number three is so important. As someone who lives in Japan, online shopping can't compete with how quickly I can be at a physical shop and acquire something I need. I usually reserve online shopping for the things I want more choice for, things that are too big to carry home, or things that are not easily acquired somewhere near me. The list of things that fall into these categories is not very long.

[@myblack6636]

There is a reason for that. European Cities have in most case a City Center. If you go to an unknown city, you'll always go to the city center and start there. So the malls were placed as close as possible to the city center to catch walk by peoples and tourists. They benefits from culture areas, restaurants, public transports, several activities etc. Sometimes there are also Malls outside in the middle of nowhere an they struggle actually with the same problems as the US malls.

[@a21npilot91]

Those malls still do better as they are oriented on different group of consumers and are by far more easily accessible. The author was referencing to Eastern Europe, so for example in Budapest there are few malls away from the city and mostly accessible by cars. Those malls offer different types of products like furniture (IKEA), building tools and materials (OBI), groceries (Auchan), sports equipment (Decathlon) and so on. People who go there have cars and visit these shops (except Auchan) not so often, so distance is not a problem. Those shops occupy big area, so I’d everything like electronics, clothes, luxury goods, small supermarkets stay in the cities or shopping malls. Not much area is required for them in compassion to OBI. Still, remote shopping malls have different purpose and in the USA they want to serve the same purpose as city malls in Europe but bring in very remote locations.

[@javierjimenez3784]

I am Spanish, and in my experience, it is quite the opposite. In Spain, shopping centers as we know them today did not appear until the 90s. Since then, we have seen how these shopping centers have been located further and further away from the city center with great success. It is precisely the older shopping malls, located near the city centers, the ones that have failed, precisely because the city center is a mall in itself (there are exceptions). I think the point of these more remote shopping centers is to offer an alternative experience, a place that you drive to from time to time.

[@mikatu]

non sense. not all malls in Europe are in the center of the cities. in fact, most are not in the center!

[@fjp3305]

In the US there are city centers too, downtown, but many people don't live there and they are empty after 5 in the afternoon.

[@lucifel35]

​@@mikatu I think the main problem is that, as mentioned in the video, in America the only real way to reach a mall is by car while in Europe there are various public transports with which you can get there

[@lohmatiyy]

An interesting thing in my city (Odesa, Ukraine): there IS a mall in the suburbs. The public transport here was almost non-existent, because, well, this is a suburb and almost everyone owns a car (this started to change because of new developments in this area, but we are talking about the situation 15-20 years ago). What this mall decided to do was to introduce free buses that will take you to and from the mall, and this was an absolute killer. People absolutely love this and this mall is ALWAYS full with people despite it being in the middle of nowhere. And I guess that the mall owners benefit from this, because the price of these buses is covered by the sheer amount of people they get into this mall.

[@ramis127]

Sadly the russians destroyed the mall

[@TheErazar]

Free buses to a mall was also a thing in Donetsk.

[@justaguy9224]

I’m from Hungary and Auchan does that in every city they operate in, as Auchan built all their stores at the very edges of the cities.

[@mattb28999]

Kraków has very similar example. 'Factory' mall is on northwestern outskirts of the city (out of its administrative borders) and it's just next to the largest mall in the city - Bronowice Gallery. They provided a few free buses in some directions that take you to it. These malls are doing fine

[@gergelygalvacsy2251]

@@justaguy9224just what I wanted to say. I guess it’s a nice compromise, since stores of that size cannot always be built in a dense inner-city.

[@farrahupson]

As someone who shopped at MetroCenter in Phoenix in the late 80's, I can attest to the fact that it is indeed in the middle of nowhere, yet also completely surrounded by the city with likely tens of thousands of people living within a small radius. The mall is fully surrounded by its own massive parking lot, several stroads, a large freeway, and a couple blocks of satellite businesses with their own large parking lots. It is a really good example of poor urban design in the U.S., where things may be relatively close to you, but are still somehow only accessible by car.

[@alexjay3980]

Ironically, the Phoenix Light Rail is expanding to have the north terminus be right next to the Metrocenter site. Which would be great if it were, you know, still open

[@alaricpaley6865]

I'm in Canada, and I have lived in a place where I could see the Walmart from my back yard, but because it was across a 6 lane road with a center divider fence (because people had been walking across it to get to walmart) you had to walk 2km to a crosswalk, then 2km back up to the Walmart. So the city put in a pedestrian overpass. 2km up the road in the opposite direction. No one uses it.

[@Skoopyghost]

Been in Serbia a few times. I miss the street market, and the gypsy music. I don't know if it's because I like gypsy music, or street markers.

[@SECONDQUEST]

In Portland Oregon, the largest mall, Lloyd center is directly on our fantastic public transit system and it's still dying, so it's not that.

[@kayvte5487]

metrocenter in the late 80s was thriving

[@luckygreentiger]

Libertarians call it "government red tape crippling the economy"--while adults call it "necessary regulations to avoid mass closures and urban decay". That line had me legitimately laughing out loud.

[@StarStabbedMoon]

I really want to see a Libertarian rage at this but I fear they'll never see this video.

[@luckygreentiger]

@@StarStabbedMoon I worked with several libertarians, and they just laugh it off as delusions or whatever works for them. There's no anchor in reality. Gubmit bad, corporations good. Simple philosophy for simple minds.

[@KO-tq3ns]

I've noticed that malls in tourist-centric areas are much more popular in the US than normal malls, which is obviously because tourists go there, but I think it's also because those malls have to be designed for people without cars and be close to the center of attention, making them generally much more pedestrian friendly and accessible. They can't be designed with cars in mind.

[@PinkAgaricus]

Yup like Waikiki/Honolulu. I think Ala Moana Center is one of those rare shopping centers/malls with a bus stop corridor in it. I also think this is the reason why we can have so much shopping crammed into a few/several miles of space without anything dead or dying.

[@Slane583]

I would say one of the problems with the mall in my area other than it being small is that it's a little bit of a drive away if you don't live directly in the city. Because I live in a rural town a few miles away it's about a 30 minute drive for me. Which isn't too bad. Even thought the mall itself doesn't have a designated bus stop there is a large covered over-hang designed for vehicles to drop people off so they don't get caught in the weather. So busses do drop people off. It's not as bad as some malls in other areas. But I would say the lack of any interesting stores is why I don't visit the mall that much anymore. It wasn't a big store, but my friend and I would visit Best Buy every Friday after work to look around. Sadly they closed in 2021 so now there's not really much reason for us to visit anymore besides taking a small walk around every now and then. Most of the stores that still exist are mainly women's clothing along with a Game Stop and a Dick's Sporting Goods. As well as a couple of shoe stores. There's not really much left in the food court either.

[@PravahanSalunke]

Vertical urban malls in big cities accessible by transit also tend to do well.

[@eskipotato]

As an American who recently lived in Europe, I can confirm that many times visiting cities in Germany, I wandered into malls by complete chance/accident. In Dresden it happened multiple times - they were just in a convenient spot between our hostel and restaurants and the main city center. Even though in my hometown the main mall isn't dying, it's stands so alone that you have to make a conscious effort to go there, and I rarely would go to it except when hanging out with friends.

[@jb76489]

Tell me you’re white without telling me

[@InsideOfMyOwnMind]

@@jb76489 Tell us what you think of white people without telling us.

[@jb76489]

@@InsideOfMyOwnMind oh poor fragile yt, having to think of other peoples experience and not just yourself

[@bobi6191]

@@jb76489 I don’t get it; is there any reason a person of color wouldn’t wander into a mall by chance/accident when visiting Dresden city center? Such a weird thing to turn into a race issue.

[@gua5432]

@@jb76489 What's this got to do with race?

[@oliverjurd]

Here in Australia - we have sort of a mix of both European and American Malls, where the malls in more wealthy areas well connected by public transit are thriving and full of people, where as the ones that are fully motor oriented and in less wealthy areas are mostly dead. It's quite an interesting dichotomy and shows how segregated Australian cities are even if people don't notice it.

[@letsburn00]

Very true. In Perth, the wealthiest mall is next to a train station and is a combination of always feeling empty, but highly successful. What matters is how much the stores make and they seem happy.

[@onnihalme8819]

Yeah it's the same thing here in Finland as well.

[@boginoid]

May I ask how's your public transportation system? There are quite a few malls here in Hungary outside of city centers (mostly at the very edges of a city, out of walking/cycling distance) and they are hardly struggling. There's usually a train station nearby, one or more bus stops and a big highway junction with a road going to the mall itself. They are purposefully built at high traffic locations.

[@stormblessed2673]

Completely agree mate, it's amazing to me how many and how varied their popularity is here in Aus. In Melbourne (the eastern - south eastern parts) you might drive/train just a few suburbs across and find some absolutely jam packed thriving mall, within a few kilometres of another that's like a ghost town from the 80's.

[@yukko_parra]

really? i never even knew malls could be built without transit in Australia... well i guess most of Sydney has decent transit... so I'm not the one to judge. just found out, there are a few malls without major transit in Sydney, they are just the oddities, the exceptions.

[@glendagraves1637]

The US malls stopped having stores that were of benefit to preople shopping; real restaurants with quiet spots, drugstores, dime stores, bookstores, etc. Great decor with plants, places to sit, variety, nursery, variety, variety. It's all the same large stores inside a large building. You get exhausted just trying to find a piece of clothing.

[@FigureFarter]

There's way too many clothing stores already

[@philipsalama8083]

@@FigureFarter That's something I've noticed as well. Clothing stores were always the dominant type of store in my local malls, but in recent years it seems like they've become one of the only business types leasing mall space, along with fast food. Game stores, furniture stores, etc, are all disappearing and being replaced by fast fashion crap.

[@crazydragy4233]

That sounds so weird. My citiy's main mall has so many different restaurants, cafe's, a general store, multiple drugstores, electronics stores, cinema on top of clothing and fast-food places. It even used to have a skating ring before

[@happycommuter3523]

I agree that the lack of variety really hurts. I only ever go to a mall now if there’s something very specific I need.

[@poulticegeist]

When did malls ever have dime stores?

[@stevenkeller3047]

As an American laying in my Airbnb in Copenhagen I can't agree with you more. I was a planning commissioner in my city for nine years and all bad projects can most often be explained by bad urban planning and policies. How I long for the US to wake up and realize we don't know it all and that there are so many good examples of better ideas out there in the world.

[@aidanaldrich7795]

What a shock! Someone who thinks their job is super important! Sorry, but urban planning is overrated. The capital market can adequately allocate store fronts without YOU stepping in. Get over yourself

[@medealkemy]

​@@aidanaldrich7795Bwahahaha good one, you're nailing that sarcastic tone 😂

[@bjam27]

You live in a free country. We don't. That's why our life are betters.

[@TheEvertw]

Well said! Here in the Netherlands, we realized the American way was not the right way in the seventies. When our kids started dying en-masse in accidents involving cars.

[@TheEvertw]

@@bjam27 The USA mistakes selfishness for freedom. In Europe, we realize your freedom ends where my freedom begins.

[@Ahdok1]

I have a fourth reason why malls are dying. Malls are open 9-5 on weekdays. That's when everyone else is working. Back in the mid 1900s, you had one working person per household, and the other was free to go shopping in the day. Now, everyone who lives in a household has to work to meet the bills, so nobody can go to the mall in the middle of the day. At the weekend you're tired for working and want leisure time, nobody wants to go shopping with their limited free days. Amazon lets you do your shopping quickly and from home, and you can do it at 10pm.

[@nikkimcdonald4562]

All the malls here are open till 10 pm.

[@nielskorpel8860]

Purchasing power

[@ernstschmidt4725]

where i live and unlike small shops, malls are mostly open after 5pm, they and big supermarkets start closing like at 8-9pm.

[@booboss]

Malls in Poland are open till 22 or even 23h

[@jameskeefe1761]

Malls in the US were always open on weekends and evening hours

[@jamesanderson2176]

He left out two important factors: The death of the former "Anchor Stores", like Sears and JC Penny, and the lack of variety. Growing up in the '70s, we could go to the mall for tools, hardware, home improvements, electronics, appliances, furniture, auto services, arcades, movie theaters, pet supplies... All that's left today are clothes, shoes, jewelry, and cell phones.

[@dasme8210]

Also a lot of anti-loitering policy too.

[@KirillTheBeast]

Then, you have the policy-mandated 17 Starbucks per square mile ratio... the lack of auto repair shops in a complex surrounded by a parking lot meant to hold more cars than there should exist in the entire planet... the absurd amount of chain shops, making it so there's literally no reason to choose one mall over the others aside from geographic convenience... oh, right; there's NO geographic convenience... xD

[@Aragon1500]

@@junirenjana I mean ngl a mall at the center of a major metro area is dying due to a lack of anchor stores it doesn't matter where you build them this mall isn't even accessible from the ground it's literally buit into the skyine of a downtown area malls here are dying

[@anthonybanchero3072]

Seattle’s Northgate, used to have a QFC Grocery store. Now part of it is where our NHL Team practices.

[@alexanderm2702]

Exactly, dead anchors is the biggest thing. Because not only is the biggest store gone, it also leaves an empty space that gives the mall an abandoned feel. Other stores don't want to be located in a mall with no anchor (they may even have lease terms that let them terminate early). More empty stores, even worse feel ... death spiral. And since stores pay the mall's maintenance expenses, there comes a point where the mall owner won't or can't keep paying full maintenance and cleaning costs itself, and when that happens start the countdown to seeing that mall on a youtube abandoned malls playlist.

[@julianfull280]

As a Colombian, I always wondered why the hell american malls dind't have multilevel subterranean or building-style parking lots. Saves a lot of space, so malls can be built in smaller spaces inside the city, instead of outside it on a barren terrarin..... also makes it feel A LOT less lifeless if it's sourrounded by buldings, parks or whatever colorful, and distances are way shorter both to go there, and to walk inside it. Even we in the "third subworld" have them. Time to implement urban planning instead of letting megarich "investors" decide they want to make a huge 2-floor mall with an even more huge open air parking lot because it's cheaper to build. You got the money and the skills to do it.

[@Kat-zi2tb]

Facts

[@Ealendyl]

You're not the only one wondering why our elected officials ( and I'm not from the US) are not acting in OUR interest ( us, the people, the community that voted for them) vs the "investors" ... how naive of us to expect it ...

[@stighemmer]

Cost. As the video mentioned, American malls are built cheap. Parking garages cost money. Colombian investors are smarter.

[@julianfull280]

@@stighemmer I was thinking that in US economy and current state of things, maybe the real problem is the terrain cost in downtown cities. Most of the space is already occupied by skyscrappers, only afforded for by huge companies. But maybe something could be done in the first floors of some buildings. Here, for example, the first levels of a Sheraton hotel are dedicated to a shopping mall, it even has a cinema and a notary's office, and from 6th level onwards, it's for hotel rooms. Both have independent entrances, and are connected too. Also another mall has regular corporate offices on top of it. Someone should explain investors that paying a little more in the building process can make their investment last longer and earn more money daily if more people visit them. As you say, only cost is the impediment for it, and in some cases the current property owner willing to allow that to be done. Maybe if the gov makes some incentives for bigger investors with more money to do it, with americans quality of life in mind, and antimonopoly law to keep amazon at bay, if the press asks why to do it?

[@becconvideo]

Many Colombian cities have quite unpleasant public spaces in their centers - apart from tourist spots - but really nice malls - secure, air conditioned - entire cities you can spend the whole day with your family.

[@ziggymo88]

As a resident of a former American "rust belt" city (Cincinnati) who recently visited a former British "rust belt" city (Manchester), I can say without question that their respective city centers are strikingly different. Manchester has a thriving urban core with multiple shopping districts, excellent transit linkages, bike lanes, and strong pedestrian activity. Their shopping malls are doing well. Cincinnati, where I live, has wide, car-centric streets, a downtown retail scene that has, with some notable exceptions, largely died off, and a paltry and infrequent bus system. City planners and developers here are doing what they can to address this, but at a glacial pace and often with pushback from unimaginative bureaucrats. We have attempted the downtown mall concept in the past, and sadly, this has been a dismal failure due to both real and perceived crime urban crime, and suburban competition. It's unlikely we'll ever be like Manchester, but we can borrow from their playbook.

[@arturobianco848]

As long as you don't allow for mixed zoning good safe public transport it won't work. You need the centre to be something enough people want be in without their car to become safe. So you need people also living there or at least close by you need people to get there without a car so public transport and biscicle lanes. That only works if people living further away have acces to local services wich again means mixed zoning. You can't just do one thing and expect it to work you need an intergral system wich is basicly been wiped out in North america. Now can it be reversered? sure it just takes a lot of politcal will and a population that is eductated about how thing can work. So no way in hell for the current US. I do think smaller towns can do it and it can grow from there.

[@corriemayo2715]

Pushback comes from the NIMBYs in the surrounding towns who fear *overdevelopment and decrease in property values. Entrenched internstes hate change

[@TheEvertw]

Don't worry, the current UK government is doing its worst to make the UK just like the USA.

[@TallSilhouette]

The big malls on the edge of my city practically being condemned at this point while the smaller ones closer to downtown are thriving definitely corroborates this.

[@sunshineandwarmth]

It used to be, the main shopping was downtown in the cities, so the malls were erected in the more remote areas where ppl in the suburbs could go to avoid going all the way downtown, especially if they worked downtown all day and went home for dinner. They didn't want to drive back downtown again to shop or do chores.

[@AirLancer]

@@sunshineandwarmth And now online shopping is more convenient than driving to the mall, so those same suburbanites don't bother. Meanwhile, if you live downtown then shopping there is as convenient as ever since it's probably on the way to/from wherever you were going anyway.

[@Mr___f]

It might be because the satellite cities are 100k+ but Chicagoland is the opposite. The suburban malls are busy and expanding while the ones near the city seem to be struggling.

[@sunshineandwarmth]

@@AirLancer there isn't much "living" in downtowns anymore and certainly not shopping. A lot of city centers are empty now. Occasionally, there is an attempt to revive them, but where in America has that been successful? When something does become revitalized, it doesn't return to its glory days, it becomes something new, and that's probably a good thing in the end. It paves the way to progress.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@sunshineandwarmth The malls in the US are overpriced, thanks in part to how commercial real estate is in teh US, so it's rather hard to justify going there to spend much more money for products than just ordering online or buying from something like a walmart or a "strip mall" shop. The only way to "revive" a mall is to figure out how to repurpose at least some of it and have it snatched up for cheap with a minimalist renovation. The best example of that I've seen is that one mall whose upper floor got turned into efficiency apartments. Fairly cheap apartments with convenient nearby shopping at places where the prices aren't too bad because the rent isn't as high as it would be on a newer mall. It kinda would be nice to apply a similar idea to other buildings, like an apartment complex that partially surrounds a small shopping center that's open to anyone, or do a building where some floors are shops and some are residences. Zoning laws are problematic for such ideas, though. The only reason that mall/apartment combo even worked to begin with was that the spaces were big enough to be livable, but lacked an oven so they could comply with zoning laws.

[@PonchoANS7]

As a Mexican, it's interesting how American influence reaches us, but some old-school sensibilities remain. We have way too many American-style malls here, but they're almost always well within the city's urban core, and very accessible to most people. Of course, there are exceptions, especially in the northern states where American influence is hardest, but still.

[@lukecwolf]

That's great to here. I always think malls could be better than they are in the us, so i enjoyed knowing mexico implementing them well

[@marsaeolus9248]

Mexico is way too influenced by the USA, they should really stop it

[@italorossid]

As a Peruvian visiting Mexico, it was remarkable seeing how much of the US retail model CDMX apparently had in their peripheral areas full of big box stores with the exact same architecture, chain stores and all, but it's nice to see you still have your model going on in the city itself after all despite all the post-colonial and neocolonial nonsense from the powers that be (like us in Peru).

[@disregardthat]

Honduras has that kind of American-style mall inside the urban areas as well, although ever since COVID they have started closing stores cause of the economic situation. for the twenty years before that, they were doing alright and new ones were still being built during that time

[@PonchoANS7]

@@italorossid Mexico City is absurd with the quantity of malls it has. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say they have more malls than entire countries.

[@benjaminpinto3027]

As a "third world" international student in the US, one of the most baffling things was having to jump into a train for an hour, then having to take a bus that barely goes anywhere in another hour, to the arrive to a mall and having to walk a few hundred meeters all for $10 one-way. Meanwhile, in my home country I could just walk 15 min, get into the subway, get my shit from midtown, and be back all in 2 hours for like $2

[@isa-belva]

8:02 "[American malls] are usually not built near any meaningful place." this is so true. i always complain to myself whenever i drive to a mall and can only see an empty dessert or grasslands around it. i'm literally at a mall yet i feel so stranded, and it's no help that half the shops are closed.

[@TheSheiban]

Having lived in Europe and other regions that are not North America, something I've noticed about malls is that their anchor stores tend to be grocery stores instead of department stores...

[@aeiouaeiou100]

I don't even know what a department store is

[@Cooom]

​@@aeiouaeiou100Macy's, JC Penny, Sears

[@tentifr]

@Aphrodite Heart whats the difference between these and a grocery store

[@murphy7801]

​@@tentifr they only do things like clothes, home interior, luxury products

[@FalkonNightsdale]

​@@murphy7801 So, if I understand the difference correctly: "department store" is something like JYSK or "non-furniture part of IKEA" or maybe (with exception of coffee) Tchibo…?

[@octochan]

I think the problem was exacerbated by some genius who came up with the concept of 'destination malls'. "We're going to build a mall/theme park that people will WANT to go out of their way to experience!" and then every other developer was like "Yes, people will want to go out of their way to shop here".

[@mrdan2898]

There's a mall here like that in Toronto, Vaughn. The mall is for some reason hyped up but it's just a medium size discount mall. Nothing special in any way! From all the hype I was not impressed!

[@Chonos1000]

@@mrdan2898 the only two reason Vaughan Mills hasn't been closed down is Wonderland and the fact they had to start building condominiums around it

[@octochan]

@@mrdan2898 I also live in Toronto, and I went there once. Wasn't worth it to go a second time.

[@LetterboxFrog]

A friend from the US commented on visiting Australia that he thought it amazing that shopping centres / malls have supermarkets in them. Indeed, shopping centres here without food outlets have a nasty habit of failing here too.

[@FreeThoughtCrime]

I am on vacation in Poland right now and in the week I've been here, I've already been to the mall twice. And havent driven even once. I can walk or take public transportation literally anywhere in the city. I didn't plan on going to the mall. The mall just happened to be right where I happened to be.

[@annafirnen4815]

Not sure how in other cities, but in Kraków, Poland nowadays each bigger mall now has a post office and a city hall branch. That means you can go shopping, sent a parcel, go eat and apply for a new ID or register your car in a one trip without standing in big queues at the main city hall. It adds to the appeal of a shopping mall.

[@notreallyhere67]

I think you can do the same in Warsaw's malls but I haven't tried lol

[@JP-xd6fm]

It most be a barber shop with only skinhead option and tatoo saloon with plenty of nazi tattos to choose, right?, as Poland is very, very extreme right wing.

[@irgendwieanders2121]

@@JP-xd6fm Don't talk s**t you know nothing about. (And that is from an Austrian who really does not like Poland, probably because their mother came from there and took too much Poland with her to be happy...)

[@alihorda]

​@@JP-xd6fmwhat did you smoke buddy?

[@JayForsure]

dude that is actually genius

[@Pehmokettu]

Here in Finland shopping malls killed the city centres. Everyone just wanted a free parking and you could't get that in city center. So when the large shopping malls were built outside the city centers the city centers started to die. Where I live people go to shopping to one of the 3 malls and the city center is just full of closed shops. People only go there to visit museums, library or restaurants.

[@markuserikssen]

But also many malls in Finland are stuggling. I've been to a few in downtown Turku, Mariehamn, Porvoo, and Helsinki, where many stores were permanently closed.

[@mstrmren]

My city in Germany has a modern mall but our pedestrian zones with shops are completely dead except for some few chains.

[@bulletz9280]

Paid parking is one of the absolute stupidest things any city can do. When there are no free options it tends to be the number one reason why people say "I don't want to go into town". The other dumb thing is combining paid parking with a spread out city that has no streetcars. Now not only do people have to pay to go downtown, they also have to walk ridiculous distances. This problem is especially pronounced in America and Canada.

[@arskakarva7474]

There's also cases of oversupply, like REDI in Helsinki. But at least in case of REDI it seems the large residential area and the new tram line might eventually work in its favor (a lot depends on if action is finally taken against rampant real estate investors uncontrollably inflating housing costs). Though there's the issue of them wanting to bulldoze the Suvilahti cultural area made out of the abandoned industrial park to build an ENTERTAINMENT MEGAZONE next to the mall.

[@Jari470]

The issue is not that black and white in my home city, Finland. Businesses have been failing in city centre, but I wouldn't attribute it to "more malls" around the city. There is public transportation, from practically everywhere, to the centre. If I would have to make an uneducated guess, it would be a combination of bad economic times, Covid, competition and yes, the damned parking fee's. Every little bit matters.

[@jd3422]

Something I have noticed in malls and department stores *OUTSIDE* of the USA: grocery stores! It makes perfect sense to have the Carrefour in there alongside all the other shops.

[@P_tterns]

In the UK, I feel that we don't rely so much just on online shopping as it's not only slow at times, but also sometimes the deals, locations and variety in malls / shopping centres makes it worth the trip and leads to a fun day out with friends

[@frankmitchell3594]

I think that must depend on where you live. Here (East Midlands) we can order online and have delivery next day. Some local town shopping centres have empty former department stores now closed. Probably due to both housing and businesses moving out to the edge of town.

[@gacaptain]

Hmm. That’s interesting. It’s just the opposite in America. I can find so much more options on line than I can traveling to several “brick and mortar stores” and the prices are usually significantly lower. Delivery is quick as well. I’m a person who prefers going to a real store to shop but the advantages of shopping online are making it harder for me to justify it.

[@madensmith7014]

What I find funny is that I've heard many people alleged that American planners hate buses and trains to the point they lobby them away from their malls. Meanwhile here in the Philippines, mall corporations are fighting over that train stations should be built right next to their mall. They even build dedicated bus terminals to make sure they stop by their malls. When you get off the terminal just trying to go home, you'd be bombarded with shops trying to sell you things, mostly food. Americans have the moniker "greedy capitalists" when they can't even get this very obvious money grab scheme that maximizes customer traffic.

[@EmyN]

Americans are greedy capitalists, but they are short sighted, that's the thing

[@adrianblake8876]

In my country, one business tycoon decided to build his malls where the state rail company built train staions. Ofc, most of these train stations are in the outskirts of town rather than city center...

[@krel7160]

You see it's greed that's so overzealous they chase pennies on the ground, missing the dollars floating by on the wind.

[@nandacarpada]

same here in brazil lol there are even bus lines created specially for the new malls

[@petrfedor1851]

Meanwile České Budějovice builded one mall on edge of city center street across train station with city buses stop in front of it And regional buses station on roof.

[@justynapasiewicz7586]

I think a big part of the difference between Europe vs the US when it comes to malls is also the fact that in Europe a huge part of customers are kids/teenagers. When I was 10 I would go to the mall with my friends and without any adults, just because it's a 10 minute walk from where I live. On the other hand in America, if you don't have a license you need someone (usually your parents) to drive you to the mall, so it makes sense that it's more convenient to buy say, clothes, online or in stores like Target or Costco.

[@liz_violet]

also malls STILL have rules against teenage "loitering," due to businesses wanting people with money to be there more...or something like that. something something mallrat culture and infighting

[@Kimfakkel]

Dunno where in EU you are talking about. But in Denmark the Older generations use em just as mutch if not more. My mom and dad hate using the computer so they still do it the old fasion way.

[@justynapasiewicz7586]

@@Kimfakkel I live in Poland ☺️ But yes, of course it's *all* generations that shop at malls, but I was just pointing out that tweens/teens are a big part of the mall demographic and I think it adds to the urban planning argument.

[@-_YouMayFind_-]

Oh here I also see a lot of adult people with kids together in the mall.

[@bellissimo4520]

True. I live in Switzerland, and as a teenager, I also spent quite a lot of time with some friends hanging out in a nearby mall. I usually went there on my bicycle, or by bus. And while we would be "loitering" there, we usually still did spend some money on something to drink etc. Needless to say, now that I'm over 50 years old, I still like to go to that very same mall pretty regularly. And it is still thriving as it was 30 years ago (actually a lot more even). Just about 2 years ago a new railway line was built, and now the mall has its own station, and that has been the greatest improvement ever.

[@Ozymandias1]

I live in the Netherlands. When a mall here has lots of empty stores they put huge posters on the windows of a thriving shop with happy customers. This looks better than rows of empty shops where you can see through to the rear walls. It's a bit cheating but it does make the place look less dreary.

[@daveb3987]

Totally agree. As an Australian living in various cities in Asia, in Australia I have to make a conscious decision to get in my car and drive directly to the shops, park, walk-in etc… then basically head straight home. In places like Seoul or Singapore, I step outside and more less wander from brilliant public transport into an outside world of shopping and eateries, without it being a bother or second thought. You can easily fill a day just wandering and malls are an important part of that. Clean toilets with plenty of soap is also nice, being out and about is just so easy and pleasant. Suburban lifestyle is no comparison, same with malls in Aus compared to Asia.

[@paxundpeace9970]

Australia is even worse with its sprawl. Look at Melbourne and Sydney

[@kathydurow6814]

Actually I would argue that in many major cities there IS transport & better parking than the US. I suspect this is more of a problem in outer suburbs where a car is still essential. Or smaller/country urban centres. I will admit that hardware & furniture/homewares shops are usually problematic without a car almost everywhere in Oz.

[@TheFeldhamster]

A fourth point you didn't mention: as far as I understand, Americans work much longer hours because their labor laws are much less strict. And then they still have to drive their kids around to afternoon activities (edit: which the kids can do with public transport, or walking or by bike in Europe and nobody will mind that your kids are "free range") and getting groceries is also more like an expedition than just picking something up on your way when you walk the last blocks from the metro to your place. So, people are much more strapped for time and stressed. And honestly, once you're not a teenager anymore, there's better places to hang out than a mall. So, people order on Amazon on their lunch break while in Europe you might pass by the mall on your way home. Or even of you have to intentionally drive there, it's not as stressful because you're just not working an 80hr week.

[@Youbetternowatchthis]

That sounds aweful. I hope the situation get's fixed with good regulation and more workers rights. Always thought it was wierd that the freakin US had 3rd world country working hours. Does not make sense for such a rich and advanced country.

[@condor237]

@@Youbetternowatchthis 13% of our population is 3rd worlders

[@PeterRiello]

@Youbetternowatchthis The working hours aren't as bad as one might expect. There is overtime for more than 40 hours (1.5 times your hourly pay) if you are an hourly employee and California has more regulations on the work week. Because of this, many employers don't like to have employees working long hours because they have to pay significantly more. The thing that bothers me more is that America does not require its employers to give maternity leave to salaried employees. It's the only developed country in the world that doesn't. Now, most employers do, but the fact that it's not required is bizarre.

[@jintsuubest9331]

@@Youbetternowatchthis In general, it does not matter if the regulation is actually good on the paper. Often the specific bill will get voted and passed. Then interest group will get their hands on the bill and modify it. By the time it is actually written into the law, it will diverge so far from its original intention, or have more holes than swiss cheese.

[@strayedarticle2838]

@@PeterRiello As I understand it, all the employers that don't want their employees to work overtime, is why so many Americans work 2 or 3 jobs.

[@roxyamused]

I pointed out your #3 reason to someone on Reddit, and said "maybe we should reform those areas to be neighbourhoods with already built shopping areas. We just have to get rid of some of those giant parking lots." "What are you some anti-car nut? We need to make the malls alive again just as they were." This was, so ironic it's almost ridiculous, on r/deadmalls. Like, I'm dying.

[@quackywhackityphillyb.3005]

Pro tip: dont use reddit its awful

[@InfernosReaper]

You don't have to get rid of the parking lots, to be real. They can stay. Neighborhoods can be built around or even inside of the malls. It's been done before with a decent degree of success

[@esgee3829]

"make the malls alive" could easily be replace with "make america great". i hear it the same anyway

[@Zack-fu4lo]

@@InfernosReaperneighbourhoods inside a mall, that sounds so terrible

[@InfernosReaper]

@@Zack-fu4lo There's actually a mall that converted the top floor into an efficiency apartment complex. Seemed to work out decently last I checked.

[@jackielinde7568]

As someone from Phoenix, Arizona, USA, I remember watching the slow decline and death of Metrocenter. I remember seeing it in it's heydays of the late 1980's and the 1990's. By the time my daughter was born in the early 2000's, you could see the decline start, but it didn't really hit home till my daughter and I went with a friend to hang out in the early 2010s. By then , it was already at half capacity, and a few of the major anchor stores either pulled out, changed the store to an "off brand and clearance" store, or had just filed for bankruptcy and closed their doors. Of the anchors, Montgomery Wards went bankrupt around 2000, Sears changed to a clearance store then pulled out (before going bankrupt themselves, thanks to the guy who bought Sears in the late 80's), JC Penny's had pulled out. Of the high end stores, I think Macy's had pulled out and Dillard's went the clearance route before shuttering their stores. (I might be wrong about that.) The movie theater at the mall (like most of the malls in the area) ended up closing their entrances on the mall side and funneled traffic in and out through the parking lot entrances. Without the anchors and the movie theater cutting traffic flow from the mall, there wasn't much to draw people in. Rents got raised for the smaller stores to make up operating costs while maintenance was cut. And the smaller stores are mostly little boutiques with a few national chains like Claire's and Spenser's Gifts. Outside of Spenser's Gifts, most of the smaller stores couldn't draw the crowds to keep them and the mall afloat. The aforementioned Claire's Boutique has been teetering on the edge of bankruptcy for a while now, if they haven't fully collapsed. The issue with Metrocenter (and a lot of the malls in the Phoenix Area) isn't just an "oversupply of commercial retail space". When many of those malls were built in the 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's, they were in areas that were middle class or better. But, a lot of those neighborhoods suffered from something called "white flight", where those who had money would move further away from these locations "looking for a better life". (Look, white flight is a complex issue all on it's own, and it does involve a lot of nasty things including racism.) As the neighborhoods declined, so did the purchasing power. Before Amazon, there was the "Big Box Store" concept that saw a lot of anchor stores (like Target) and the niche smaller stores that could draw crowds (like Barnes & Noble and Walden Books/Borders) flee malls for this format. (Westridge/Desert Sky Mall by where I live saw both Toys R Us and KB Toys move out of the mall to big box stores across the street from the mall... and all the small kid towing their parents traffic with them.) And while Amazon did not do the malls any favors, Amazon really came for the big box stores, not the malls. Then there was a loss of stores that drew foot traffic just because of the changing times. Record stores were kind of teetering in the late 1990's, first due to the invention of the MP3 media format and electronic players that replaced the Sony Walkman/Diskman and then to Amazon and Apple selling music online. Again, all of this left the malls with more niche and mom-and-pop stores that would work fine as long as there was a reason for someone to go to the mall. On top of this, in the 1960's to the 1980's, malls were seen as places to go and hang out for teenagers with extra cash to burn. When I was in high school, one of the things kids in my area that had cars would do was "cruise Metro", or go drive their cars and hang out in the circular race track of the parking lot of Metrocenter. That stopped being a thing in the 1990's, partly to the mall clamping down but also partly due to changing trends. Arcades were a big draw for this, but with consoles and Personal Computers offering the same (and sometimes better) gaming experience inside the home and the rise in the adoption of the Internet, Arcades were another victim of the changing times and helped kill off the image of malls as places to hang out. This isn't to say that all malls in the US are dead. Malls in places where there's a thriving middle class (like the Arrowhead Mall in Peoria, Arizona, US) are doing fine, even when one of their Anchor stores closes. Some of the malls in areas where the neighborhoods have changed have also changed to serve their new client base. Desert Sky, by my house, is now almost exclusively serving a Latino base, since that's the majority of who lives in my area. It came with the cost of housing any of the stores I would have gone to the mall for, so I haven't been to that mall in several years. But I recognize what they needed to do. Some malls are turning themselves into Mixed Use properties, where there is a mix of apartments/living space, commercial/office space, and retail space in an effort to create a "one stop" for everything a person could need. Metrocenter was attempting to do that in the late 2010's, but it was far too late when they started. Also didn't help that they sold a good chunk of the property to Walmart, and then COVID hit. Sadly, outside of the circular parking lot and Walmart, Metrocenter is no more.

[@orbanfurer-bg6me]

beautiful hungarian accent from an orbanus subject straight from the nazi orbanus: "we europeans" LOL

[@polishtheday]

Malls reflect their neighbourhood. I was at a mall recently that I hadn’t visited in two or three years. I could tell from the stores that had opened and those that had shut down that the neighbourhood had undergone a demographic change because many stores were now catering to new immigrant groups. This happens quite a lot in Canada but this was the first time I’d witnessed such an abrupt change.

[@tgriffith1350]

Bro, I literally just found your comment after posting mine, and we're kind of on the same page here. I'll repost by message here as a reply: Hey Adam Something, I have unique insight into this topic of malls. I used to live in Phoenix, AZ, and then I also lived in Ochota in Warsaw (close to Blue City). I think you are right on the first two points, but I think the 3rd point is only partially right. Thinking of the 3rd point, I will be more direct - the reason why places like the Metro Center in Phoenix went out of business is not at all poor urban planning, as the Metro Center is literally in the middle of Phoenix and everyone can get there pretty easily, even with rush hour traffic. The reason why many malls are failing is because the middle to upper class european american families tend to leave city centers and move to the suburbs. This is where you will still find nice and thriving malls in most American cities. What happens as a result is a "ghettofication" of intercity malls, where the shopping clientele becomes more minority driven. I don't think most european americans are being immediately racist by no longer going to these malls, but there is some uncomfortable truth in the racialization of the US - and I mean that minorities can also be abrasive in larger numbers sometimes, especially with the youth in today's more sensationalized America. If you include as well an uptick in crime, and it's quite obvious why intercity malls are disappearing. While your examples of particular malls are good, you didn't mention also the thriving mall culture in southern Europe - part of the fun of going to places like Spain, Portugal and even Napoli are their fresh malls that are often open until 10 pm or even midnight. I remember Blue City well - it closes at, like, 8 pm, right? You also didn't talk about the more general sociability of European cultures compared to the more individualist mentality of the US. The US is newer than Europe as a culture(s), and doesn't tend to have deeper collectivist roots to compliment their more modern interculturalism. Americans often don't really care to socialize in new malls, where the city itself is only 50 - 100 years old and has largely been driven merely by infrastructural desires to capitalize. Europeans appreciate interacting together more than is typical in most areas of America. Further, I also see police strolling through malls more often than in the US (in US malls, you see every so often a security guard). Finally, there tends to be more entertainment around the Food Courts in European malls - families are dining together, and there's often an arcade/bowing alley. This used to be the case in the US when arcade culture was still around, before being replaced by online gaming, and when intercities in the US had a higher percentage of middle to upper class european americans. Granted, these are broad strokes I'm painting with here, but overall generally true.

[@JeroenJA]

i think this is the most important sentence : "Rents got raised for the smaller stores to make up operating costs while maintenance was cut." that says : as long as we can get some margin by raising rent along costs, while keeping any expensive to an absolute minimum, we can stay open for a little while longer. that is closure management.. not at all a management in witch you assume the number of shoppers could stay even stable in the next 10 years.. uncouncious you immediatly notice all kinds of small things not happening, and seeing a lot of closed up shops is the worst! in the EU a lot of attention and policy goes toward stopping empty shops! long time closed up shops only emit an atmosphere of decline .. so what do we do, we allow start up to try out location real cheap, but only for couple of months, bringing refrechment in what there is to see and buy.. those that aren't filled in as shops, get maintained, and some stayed closed but get for example cars showcased behind the glass, being at least used as a 3D billboard showing in real life a thing to buy, still feels way more alife then passing an empty shop ;). but all over western europe, plenty of actions are taken to slow down decline of fysical shops! it's not like we aren't experiencing the problem, those who just don't change, get a barren shopping street or mall.. I think we decide more quicky to just shut off a mall that's really doing bad? Ground is scarcer here.. so more pressure to use it well,. I think that, only BEcause your malls are in the middle of nowhere they can stay half open so extremely in decline... else there would be more pressure to just trow them down, to replace by for example apartments, oh, i just looked it up for my country, a general government focus is also not to allow big retail zones anymore, but only smaller onces, with a real focus on diversity! , some stores will only pay half the rent as other, cause they are considered reason to pass by. Like for example it's standard to have at least a smaller supermarket.. --> you can decide to go to the mall, and pick up some groceries before leaving, especially for more car malls, that DO still exist here to! , but they are located near a big ring or busy connection routes a lots of people need to pass by, and often see that a mall still exist, you have to resee a lot to keep on thinking of it as a possible destination :).

[@tgriffith1350]

​@@JeroenJA I lived in Phoenix, California, Poland (two bus stops away from the Warsaw Mall this video shows, called Blue City), Croatia and now western Germany. I have been to the mall called the "Metro Center" in Phoenix this video was talking about many times. You are right in some of your assessment, but one mistake is that you think there are malls "in the middle of nowhere". This is not the case. And to be honest, the person who made this video is also making the same mistake of pure reasoning - he's trying to deduce what malls are like in the US through google maps logistics and internet searches. The creator of this video is partially right, but anyone that has lived in intercity US and/or in European cities will immediately notice that he's excessively relying on pure reasoning rather than real-world application. Further, because I've been to malls all across Europe, I can judge the differences between US VS multiple European malls. The smaller start-ups you are talking about are more normal in former east bloc countries due to poorer economy. Places like Spain, Italy and Portugal have malls with large business and are open often until midnight. The smaller start-up companies in, say, Krakow Glowny rarely have many customers. The customers will flock to the typical stores, such as Carrefour or the food court. So, yes, malls in eastern EU will "pad" their empty stores with start-ups at lower rent cost just to present the image of financial success - it's a pretty typical post-communist propaganda tactic that's a easy ruse to see through, especially when few customers are in the stores and the start-ups change every half year (but it's also a financially understandable tactic that can be seen on rare occasions in US as well)... Part of the issue of US dying malls is of course economic in nature - the other part of the issue is essentially social in nature, having to do with "ghettoification" of many US intercities, along with {socially-engineered & racialized} sensationalism that fractures communal environments - especially in the middle-to-lower income areas.

[@sebaldfan]

This is fantastic, i moved to Zagreb a year ago from the US and one of the first things i noticed was how packed and viable the malls here are compared the middle america zombie malls that exist in my hometown. And its extremely funny that vaguely 'socialized' economic/urban planning policies are the reason they still work here.

[@theoriginalLP]

As a citizen of Zagreb, I must add that, in my experience, practicality is the reason malls are viable here. If you went shopping, you would naturally go to a mall because there are many stores there. In the centre these stores (if they didn't completely move to a mall) are far away from each other so you'd probably go to a particular store in the centre if you needed a specific thing, and go to a mall if you want to visit multiple stores.

[@beckypetersen2680]

I would add that probably the malls have been mostly built since the mid 1990s there in Croatia.

[@Account-br9kc]

@@beckypetersen2680 vast majority were built way after that, there is only one old one from nineties still in function (king cross), all others were built after 2005

[@signalizkvarta1672]

@@Account-br9kc You forgot about the underground Importane Centar mall, built in 1993, which located right next to the Central train station (Glavni kolodvor). Also, if I recall corectly King Cross was built in 2002.

[@marekvyrostko]

I heard about the malls dying and how Stranger Things and other nostalgic media is using malls as a thing of the past, since today they either don't exist anymore or are ghost towns. Then a week later I had to go to buy something, and a mall that was about 10 minutes by tram from me was the best place to get that. I was really surprised that it was absolutely packed with people, there was some sort of farmer's market outside with a carousel and absolutely nowhere near dying. Then I realized that probably my life in Europe is vastly different from what media keeps showing us, since most of the media nowadays is heavily US-centric, even if you live in Europe.

[@sunshineandwarmth]

Oh, ppl are probably just looking for ways to get likes. I'm new to chatting online & noticed negative content generally does better than positive. And there's an awful lot of negativity.

[@crazydragy4233]

I noticed it a while back how prevalent mall nostalgia was in certain niches of American media and didn't really understand it, but their malls also looked really different too usually. I wouldn't want to track through a never ending clothing alley either lol

[@AFnord]

Though Europe is not free from the mall death either, it's just not quite as bad as it is state-side. Sweden, where I'm from, has this issue, with many malls & larger shopping centers being pretty much dead. And a lot of this stems from what once was a pretty good idea. Between 1965-1975 they built a lot of suburbs as planned "units", where they wanted to make sure that people who moved in would have easy access to all the necessities, like public transportation, shopping, schools, daycare and work. Problem now is that many of these shopping centers and malls are no longer needed so you've got a lot of ghost towns. Going further out on the subway lines in Stockholm will give you a good idea of what I'm walking about, a few places thrive, but many are full of empty stores.

[@sunshineandwarmth]

@@AFnord seems the whole world is decaying. Idk myself, but I read Ireland is doing really well. Didn't Sweden get invaded w Muslim migrants when other countries in Europe did? Were there enough resources to accommodate them already in place? You didn't need to provide new shops?

[@AFnord]

@@sunshineandwarmth I have no idea what the muslim imigrants have to do with the topic of superfluous shopping centers. It feels like you're trying to link two completely separate topics for some reason, and I guess the use of the word "invaded" means that you're trying to cast it in a negative light? Local demand in an already built up area isn't going to magically be created unless you also build more housing in that specific area. Would not say that the world world is in decay either just because things are changing and old concepts no longer work.

[@steffenrosmus9177]

One mayor problem of US malls is: you have the same shops nationwide, so if you seen one, you have seen all. You need more local shops in there with good products to attract people to the mall, because you can get those products only in this particular mall. That is what Europeans do and it works well.

[@justaguy9224]

European malls are quite similar to each other as well, but you would be ending up in one of those, because they are usually in city centers on huge pedestrian plazas with great transit connections

[@tjwoosta]

Yes, I agree with this. Every mall is basically the same with all the shops being copy pasted nationwide chains. I would go to a mall that was all local owned businesses and stuff.

[@Otzkar]

malls in europe also all have the same 50 stores in them..

[@Eliastion]

I'd disagree here - European malls also tend to feature the same stuff (at least within a single country) and, more importantly: the core customer base comes from the same area and visiting another faraway mall is a relatively rare thing. The advantage of European malls is that they either sit right in the middle of the city while the larger, "american style" ones are generally less common, meaning that they don't compete with each other so hard. Shopping in person does have its advantages over online shopping and a large mall has advantages over more constrained ones in the middle of the city - but the supply of potential customers is limited. And, well, "on the outskirts" in an European city tends to still be significantly closer than in a US one of comparable population.

[@strayedarticle2838]

Thats a great idea.

[@damiandavies4632]

I'm an American that's currently living in Germany. I 100% support this video and while it seems condescending at times, it's 100% true. The way American cities build is absolutely horrific. Another reason why HOAs are on the rise. The sprawl and car centric lifestyle is very, very, very expensive and the cheapest materials are used for construction.

[@eliquinta]

I'm from the US, but I've been living in Lithuania for >3 years. Going to the mall is necessary here and I go all the time. Our biggest grocery stores are inside malls. I also don't have a car and it makes sense to go to the mall where I can do multiple errands in one trip (grocery store, pharmacy, etc).

[@arkio_exe]

As a romanian i can 100% approve the first part of the video, we still have these loud dirty outdoor markets and we go there all the time. I was really shocked when i found out they didn't exist in america

[@Shiralkian]

We have them in Spain as well and they're still thriving, it's a shock to see them so poorly described in the video (maybe they're not quite the same?). You will get looks if you say you buy your clothes from there but it's a good spot to get fresh fruit and savory snacks like lupines (de-li-cious) or several kinds of olives.

[@admiralbosch2851]

yup, when i visited Europe and Turkey and Georgia i had seen something familiar in America, we call them Flee Markets. Yet they are nothing like how it is in other countries. i liked it. and just like a mall or those outdoor shops, I don't need anything. 🤣 so i just look.

[@deathweaselx86]

They exist here. They’re called “flea markets” and they’re awesome

[@samham4461]

They do exist but they're few and far between For example you can go to LA fashion district and see plenty plenty of people selling stuff out of stalls unrelated to fashion or clothing

[@admiralbosch2851]

@@deathweaselx86 i should stop using google speech to text. 🤣

[@fittinginisforjigsawpieces3141]

I know this is about central europe, but i think one of my favourite examples of a 'perfect/uncollapsable' mall is the arndale in manchester UK. Not only does it have a tram stop litterally outside the front gate, it's also built two minutes away from victoria station, the most popular station in the city. On top of that, it essentially gatekeeps the station from the rest of the city, because its built slap bang inxthe middle, so for most people the most sensible thing to do is walk through it and, hey, on the way we could pick up some clothes or jewelry or whatever. Its essentially become another road THROUGH the ciry as opposed to an ammenity you visit, and thats genius.

[@katerynasirko1832]

There are several underground stations in Kyiv with similar tactics: some have entrances into shopping malls, some just have a bunch of smaller shops underground, which you might come into on your way outside. I remember very well the pleasant surprise when I exited the train and the first thing inside the underground passage was a big chain grocery: I could just do some shopping right here and be on my way without any further stops or detours)

[@bramvanduijn8086]

The most extreme example I know is Utrecht Central station, Netherlands. The train station is entirely covered by a massive mall full of shops. And any exit you take takes you to plazas, streets, and canals full of more shops, all with bus stops all over the place. You could take a train there, buy clothes on your way to the canal-side pub with over a hundred different beers, swing by a bookstore, grab something to eat in any of hundreds of restaurants, carts, and anything in between, before you check if the camping store has new tents. This takes so little time you have plenty of time to get to the pop podium for the show you came to Utrecht for. There you enjoy the music and/or party, go to an after party with the band in one of the many local bars, and... then get stuck on the train station because for some reason trains don't run between 01:00 and 05:00. OK, so its not paradise, but as long as you're smart about your return time you can do your shopping, go for a show, get drunk, and get home safely without needing a sober friend to drive you.

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

@@bramvanduijn8086 - Krakow, Poland is quite similar. The central station is actually part of a huge shopping mall. To get in or out of the station you’re forced to walk through the edge of the mall.

[@dikankan4805]

As a Manchester resident agreed 100%, it is literally on the site of Manchester's traditional city centre shops and produce market, it would be crazy to drive there. Viva city centres!

[@RenegadeVile]

Same in some locations here in Belgium. Ghent has numerous shopping malls and streets that have several tram stops spread throughout, with one of those malls in five minutes from the train station. Other cities are similar.

[@adifriedman6596]

It's not even just Europe, I grew up abroad and when I went home to America my home is so rural that there just aren't malls, the first time going to an American mall was shocking, there was nothing to do there but shop and eat fast food with it being half empty and in the middle of a giant sweltering parking lot! I miss Thai malls so much, they're very beautiful with efficient underground or stacked parking and in a central location. They're also very friendly to small businesses which make up the majority of the stores.

[@Carnifici]

I'm a bit sadden that you didn't pick Cracow's 'Galeria Krakowska" when giving examples of the good locations. Galeria Krakowska is basically merged with both main bus hub for the city, main tram station for the city, and on the underground level it also have a train stop. On top of that, it's literally 1km from the historical city center. It trully is a perfect location for a mall.

[@Yosh1az]

Even during the COVID period, malls in Asia specifically in South East Asia are thriving. Even with the rise of e-commerce, malls in South East Asia are doing exceptionally well.

[@KikuraKun]

Dense is the key here.

[@yokelengleng]

This is my comment so that Adam can read. However, it doesn't have many likes so I am including my comment here Hi Adam. As a Malaysian, I believe it is possible that you analysis about the death of American malls is too Eurocentric. While bad urban planning may be a factor for the decline of American malls, it is not necessarily the case in Asia. In Malaysia, everyone depends on a car and public transport is not very convenient, and yet malls in Malaysia as well as other Asian countries are thriving. By your standards, any city that is designed for the car is inherently bad, but it isn't necessarily the case, because malls in Malaysia and other Asian countries are not built in far-flung locations like in America, they are an organic part of the city, although they are more often than not only accessible by car. But at least they are easily accessible, just that you must have a car. On top of that, you should really see what an Asian shopping mall looks like, it is literally the epitome of shopping malls, beautiful and welcoming design, inviting you to walk around and see what is going on. In contrast, shopping malls in the Anglosphere, such as US, UK, Australia and New Zealand look boring by Asian standards. These malls are more like supermarkets, and the design is more like "quickly buy stuff that you need to survive, then fxxk off". Asian shopping malls also host a wide range of events, ranging from massage chair sales to singing competitions, which make Asian malls hustling and bustling all the time. I hope we can have a rational conversation about our differing viewpoints, since you rarely discuss about Asia, and Asia somehow works on different terms than the West. Thank you for taking your time to read my comment.

[@Yosh1az]

@@KikuraKun Yes, malls in my city are very close to the population center, and the best thing is that they are only 1-2 jeepney or minibus rides away from each other.

[@legoinferno7]

@@Yosh1az yea same over here

[@madensmith7014]

​@@Yosh1az This loops back to the transportation. Our malls are connected to some form of public transport, even if trains are almost non-existent. Buses, tricycles, jeeps, pedicabs, etc., whatever people have in their area Heck, highrise apartments are being built right next to them to min-max foot traffic Even if malls were built on some out of place area, they tend to become commercial hubs, and more buildings start to surround them. These concepts are seemingly allergens to American planners.

[@ukaszwalczak1154]

Fun fact, In Poland around the 90s and 2000s, you could legit buy an AK from marketplaces such as the ones shown here.

[@maduinargentus5878]

"Tak działa wolny rynek" XD

[@justaguy9224]

The same thing in Hungary as well. The Russians were selling AK-47-s if you weren’t suspicious. Actually I heard you can still buy here AKs if you have really great connections.

[@Menelutorex]

pierwsze słyszę ...

[@maxi-me]

Commenters usually preclude with "fun fact" just before they submit pessimistic snark, but for once it actually _IS_ something fun.

[@misosoppa3279]

And night vision goggles when they were still classified as extremely advanced military technology

[@fanofcodd]

I'm a westerner who went from France to Poland. Visited one of Warszawa malls lately to visit a Rolex shop who can provide repairs for an old watch. The malls is not too far from the city and even if there is several levels of parking , public transportation goes all around and people can even walk to it. A very alive place I would say.

[@cariwaldick4898]

You're spot on with all three of these assessments. The first one is really hitting us hard now. We're suffering from a wealth gap, as the poor get poorer, and the rich get richer--and the mall is more of a luxury. The very customers they're marketing to, are broke. Over-saturation is a problem, too. How many shoe stores do we really need??? Every mall seems to have the same exact stores as the last. Every time one had a new idea, all the others copied it. "We've got palm trees." "Oh yeah, well, now we've got palm trees, too!" Elevators, fountains, carousels, live music, imported marble, skylight roofs, train rides, play centers, and seasonal decorations--all the same. Number three is definitely a thing. Nothing is built here within walking distance. Some malls have areas that grow up around them, but we REALLY need to retrofit existing malls into mixed use spaces--to save them. Rip out some of the parking lots to make gardens, and outdoor spaces. designate part of the mall for offices, and maybe even apartments. Someone else mentioned underground parking--YES! Leave space for other things, and make it all walkable. Then it will make sense to have public transport engineer a stop there. There's a fourth thing in the US that's not really being talked about: Isolationism. The number of young people with social anxiety disorder seems to be growing. More people need emotional support animals. Lots of people are losing social skills, and forgetting how to talk to each other. Malls mean people, while Amazon means you don't have to speak--or be spoken to. People seem to have forgotten how to be nice, respect each other, and not get in someone else's business. "Karens" are so prevalent now, along with those who find offense in everything. People have no patience. The mall means you have to navigate other people, from parking to waiting in lines.

[@echomjp]

Your fourth point I really think is the most relevant in practical terms to Malls dying in the USA. People used to go to the Mall as a family experience or to spend time with friends. Nowadays though, people are far less sociable in general, and if they are socializing they are probably doing so through social media or other formats rather than actually going to the effort of going to a physical Mall. Compared that with Malls in the USA being far too numerous and other issues, and it's no wonder the demand for them has gone down.

[@cariwaldick4898]

@@echomjp It's a combination of many different factors. I suspect with the lack of good-paying jobs, so many left in debt, saving for housing, paying off student loans, and struggling financially, everyone's less consumer driven. The malls are full of a whole lot of wants, and not many needs. If I designed a mall today, I'd make it mixed use. It would be on a bus route, and have parking under it rather than beside it. Designated loading docks would be hidden. There would be a real grocery store at one end. There would be a kid space, with certified childcare workers who get paid to watch your kids while you shop. There would be resting benches all throughout the mall. There would be apartments, and office space upstairs. Outside there would be gardens, a greenhouse, and maybe a garden center to buy plants, or fresh fruit/veggies grown on site. The food court would have indoor/outdoor dining, and share more amenities. I'd have them use reusable dishes, and have a station that washes and redistributes the dishes. I'd work to attract businesses that fill more needs--like hardware stores, delis, second-hand stores, repair shops, craft stores, drug stores, hair salons, gyms, pet grooming, and daycares. I'd lower the ceilings, to save heating/cooling costs. I'd have the roof covered in solar panels, and back up batteries on site. I'd have store rents as cheap as I could afford, and upcharge based on percentage of profits. I'd have a public stage inside, where people could see free concerts, plays, comedy shows, and musicals put on by local groups. I'd organize community events there, like regular fitness programs, holiday celebrations, pet expos, job fairs, craft shows, food trucks, ethnic celebrations, wedding planning, and home/garden shows. But then again, I don't have a few million dollars sitting around to make it happen.

[@funram]

There's one more thing to add : in Europe, when malls were constructed around nothing, entire cities were build near them, with their transport and cultural infrastructures. A great example of this is Val d'Europe, 35km east of Paris : it was built to complete the Disneyland Paris project, as a part of the Marne-la-Vallée New City. When construction started in 1992, there was nothing around it, it was basically a 50km2 empty space. Nowadays, it is a city of 20 000 inhabitants integrated into the urban landscape of the Parisian region.

[@dominikmurz]

Or like in Poland, there is a town Janki near Warsaw which is almost only shopping centers and warehouses but still thrive because it's build around an IKEA so it still attracts enough customers to thrive.

[@ArchOfWinter]

This is pretty much similar with Asia. This includes new transit too! So it pretty much turn every resident into customer of the new mall just for satisfying daily necessity during commute to/from work and school. Malls become part of daily lives, not a destination to visit like a tourist. And still beat the 2 day free shipping with Amazon.

[@KyrilPG]

To be fair, Val d'Europe is pretty much an exception in France. And France can be considered one of the worst offenders in Europe about malls with huge parking lots and no transit, sucking the life out of city centers and aggravating the low density housing disease. Thankfully they've essentially enacted a moratorium on new shopping malls which is only half respected, and often not on the right half. At the same time, some absolutely terrible projects are still being built as they flew under the radar and some projects that integrate well into a denser urban fabric and public transportation system are being axed into oblivion. (Like Europa City in Northern Paris suburbs). So, France isn't exactly the best example here when it comes to well integrated malls that don't ruin city centers. There are a few good and OK examples : Val d'Europe, Les Halles Forum, Saint Lazare station mall and a slew of absolutely terrible, asphalt-sea parking lot and city center ruining, transportation UNconnected soulless big-box malls. Even some city center ones like the Polygone one in Montpellier have a number of closed lots, or the bunker like Montparnasse mall in Paris center that is failing and being overhauled.

[@hazardeur]

nah dude. that's a huge exception. you don't build entire cities near them. you don't build cities at all, it's all there already and there's not that much space

[@funram]

@@hazardeur The "New Cities" programs were commonplace throughout western Europe between 1960 and 2000. There were such programs in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, west Germany, the UK, Italy, Portugal and Spain. And there were also such programs in the eastern bloc, even thought organized differentely.

[@devicing]

When I lived in a rural part of Japan, the best malls were all built directly into or around the major train stations, so much that I forgot that’s not how we used to do it here in the US. When I came back to the US, I realized how much I miss those kinds of malls, especially since it made it so easy to meet up with friends who lived in other small cities as a central hub without the reliance on a car 😭

[@RenegadeVile]

On my honeymoon in Kyoto, we stumbled upon a huge network of shopping streets really close to our hotel. We spent two days walking through all of that. The smaller streets are filled with stands selling small snacks akin to what they sell inside the actual restaurant behind them.

[@thomashajicek2747]

I remember traveling to Japan in the late 90's and being surprised at how clean and beautiful metro stations were as well as how much they resembled US malls with all of the stores. Compare that to the metro stations of west coast cities like NY and Boston: places where you want to get out of as soon as possible!

[@mephistosprincipium]

I was about to write the same, it’s extremely convenient, or the endless shopping streets (商店街, shõtengai)

[@charliefasurf1000]

You should include Chinese malls, also not dying, instead turning into activity centers for children (English schools, baby swimming, amusement park stuff, coin operated machines, etc.)

[@Master_3530]

In Europe you can walk around a mall while waiting for your train

[@Fusilier7]

Here in Canada, our malls are also outperforming American malls, despite being a hybrid of European and US shopping centres. Incidentally, our malls are beginning to shed their American influence in favour of Asian malls from Japan or South Korea, which are mixed use structures, zoning laws in Korea for example, states that public buildings are not allowed to be retail only, they have to have more than one function, such as gyms, libraries, arcades and parlours. Canadian malls are evolving, as opposed to American malls who remain trapped in the 1950s, so the American should listen to their own advice, so evolve or die.

[@aycc-nbh7289]

I’m pretty certain that some American malls also follow this model. Two of the malls near where I live have Dave and Buster’s locations.

[@TimothyCHenderson]

Except for good old Promenade in Thornhill ON also known as traumanade due to the brutal customers. It's been slated for redevelopment into a condo complex.

[@jeffersonclippership2588]

Americans: we love change, we're such a dynamic and creative country Also Americans: anything new or different is literal communism

[@inuendo6365]

I absolutely loved going to the Eaton Centre because it reminded me of malls in Tokyo. Well built, plenty of public transit to bring me there, lots of stuff going on nearby and super clean compared to American malls. All it needed was more arcades or manga shops and I would have believed I was in Japan.

[@LucasFernandez-fk8se]

Canadian malls thrive because of the weather. It’s cold as shit so indoor malls thrive. America it’s warm most of the year so a suburban power center is adequate. Your big box stores surrounded by parking don’t need an enclosed hallway and walking path out of the elements since our elements aren’t as bad as Canadas

[@boccersall]

As an American, I have yet to be able to walk to a mall from a residence, and the amount of times I've been able to walk between establishments is disappointing. Cheap suburban land baiting corporations into business models requiring deliberate travel from its consumers has rotted local economies. It has become so much more evident post-pandemic and with the rise of cynicism in customers to shill their time, effort, and money to these companies. Part of me is sad that the US economy is crashing as a consequence of the overabundance of lazy alternative commercial models but current events probably serve as a significant disincentive for companies to opt for decentralized locations. Hopefully the country can start moving towards walkable cities and human-friendly urban design.

[@Ule_blood]

yeah why would you not take the easy way out, this feels so pretentious, my dude amazon is popular cause it's easy, to do three clics. again e-comerce is just a thing that people going to do

[@AnymMusic]

@@Ule_blood it's not really pretentious. he literally says why US malls are failing, and honestly in-turn, why US city design is just bad

[@towardsthelight220]

"Walkable cities " that ship sailed a long time ago. Cities are dying too, artificially I might add.

[@aycc-nbh7289]

But you are aware that the dream of walkable cities comes at a cost, no? New York City is already learning this the hard way if they are sinking under their own weight.

[@joanandreanoweyland57]

@@koschmx You know the plural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "statistics", do you?

[@Matticitt]

What I noticed is that malls which offer something extra are doing better. There was a mall in my city which failed because it was just another bland mall. However there's one which integrates a hotel, two muzeums, a public square with restaurants and a historic landmark. Yet another one has outdoor areas for children and an Ikea.

[@gabbo13]

I'm Colombian and I can relate with the European perspective on the malls and their infrastructure. I used to live in a neighborhood where it's almost everything near from home and I can even walk 5 minutes to a mall and another 10 for another one. But compared to the experience in the United States, I had another view of them but empty.

[@staticbuilds7613]

In Europe shopping is more natural. Most shops are in one area where you can walk around. It is not uncommon to be able to quickly walk thought a mall to get to your destination. Like a tunnel filled with shops. America is extremely stretches so each location takes a while to get to. In Europe you can walk around and find hundreds of shops and stalls within a hour. From what I have seen from KZbin America also separates recreational activates and shopping areas, sometimes by several hours or transport. This means that in a day a American will have to either decide to go out for fun or go our shopping. Here in Europe we can do both and multiple things without even needing a car. I can also Imagine how fuel has to be considered for Americans when they go to places. They probably pay more in fuel to travel to multiple shops as well as spend many more hours. A big benefit for Europe cities is that you can walk to work. even in malls. You can get a job where you are within walking distance seemingly easier than in America. These large buildings probably means that most if not all Americans working at them have to drive which costs fuel and maintenance on their vehicles.

[@ocromiun]

In Europe you can go to the mall, buy sunglasses, a tshirt, drink 4 beers eat a hamburger and then go back home by metro or bus with no problem. Sounds nice, right?

[@veziculorile]

yeah I hate living in the US because of stuff like this.

[@sunshineandwarmth]

Yes. It's become a very hard life, especially in the north where it's bad weather, cold, and hilly. Even more so for the elderly, ppl w physical handicaps, and the poor. Many places there is no public transport, especially in or near small towns where most ppl actually live. It seems ppl in other countries still think the US is like it was just after WW2 when the world was mostly blown up, but the US wasnt, and had prospered from building materials for the war effort.

[@Kandisz_nora]

Budapest does not have the best infrastructure in Europe, let's be honest. But still: my neighborhood has a metro station, 2 bus lines to the city center, a tram line, a railway station, an Aldi, a TESCO, a SPAR, 2 pharmacies, a veterinary, a GP's office, a post office, 2 elementary schools and a high school, 2 gyms, fruit and veggie shops, a butcher's shop etc and a whole shopping mall IN 5-10 MINUTES OF WALKING DISTANCE. And I live in the outskirts of the city, not in the center. I can get my daily shopping done in half an hour and without a car.

[@danielleanderson6371]

And the reason for all this comes back to the death grip the auto industry has on America. If everything is close or accessible via train, then you don’t really need a car. Car manufacturers know this and lobby for loose city planning policies that make it easy to make things inconvenient, like an abuser who invents a bad situation they can save you from to look like a hero you can depend on. It’s insidious.

[@nevets9436]

US Malls were mostly created before big box stores like Walmart super center, Home Depot, etc existed closer to every suburb. People are no longer willing to travel the distance to the Mall.

[@TsubataLately]

Big box stores aren't any better integrated into the community than malls are. Plenty of them are part of larger shopping complexes that include a mall.

[@moosesandmeese969]

Lol what? Big box stores existed long before the first malls started popping up and they indeed try to incorporate stores like Sears, JCPenney, and other large department stores. Where are you getting your information?

[@jameskeefe1761]

Walmart mainly appeals to the low income consumer or people trying to live frugally. Its not a great place to buy clothes but it is cheap. So the demand for better quality clothing must have gone away

[@SomePotato]

Big box stores kill city centers in Europe too.

[@aycc-nbh7289]

And? American malls have these stores inside of them.

[@seanretro2930]

In the UK we got a shopping center that opened in the year 1990 that's still going strong. Not only can you get there by car, a 20 minutes drive for me. But you can also get there by bus, train, or by tram, and you can even walk it to get there since there are houses nearby. So it shows that good planning on where to put a shopping center can go a long way.

[@zaleost]

I know in London we have at least 3 that I've come across, that are seem to be thriving sometimes even overcrowded. Although I suspect a lot of this is to do with them the sheer population density on top of them all being near major underground hubs/high streets.

[@paulm2467]

There’s a 1970’s smaller mall on the opposite side of Westfield in Stratford London, everyone thought that it would die when Westfield opened, instead it has doubled its footfall. It seems to have cheaper alternatives such as Sainsbury’s and Lidl instead of Waitrose but there are businesses that have shops in both malls and it has a trendy bar and cinema on the top of the car park. It’s as easily accessible as Westfield as it’s on the opposite side of the station which is a major transport hub of trains, tubes, buses and the DLR. Both malls are surrounded by housing and are easily walkable for locals with all the parking being either underground or multi-storey with lifts going directly into the malls and both malls are thriving.

[@jacquesmertens3369]

OK, I know nothing about malls in the US, but I do know many of the big malls in Central/Eastern Europe. In the first years after they opened they thrived because everything was new and people wanted to try it. Today the major reasons for visiting the mall are 1) a quick meal or drink, 2) the supermarket in the basement, 3) the cinema on the top floor, 4) parking space, 5) the playground. Most shops inside the mall are struggling to survive because the rent is high and they cannot compete with online offers.

[@Sundara229]

That intro scene hit home so hard. I grew up in 1980s Poland and have fond memories of busses full of western items that people brought back with them. My father gifted me a pair of German rubber boots and my older brother got himself a nice Italian bicycle and a NES gaming cosole with the money he made on stay in Italy while evading the draft. We moved to Germany a few years after the fall of the iron curtain. Imagine my shock seeing how everybody was casually driving Mercedeses and BMW's and talking about Computers and consumption in general like it's no big deal.

[@iPlayOnSpica]

The NES is Japanese, though.

[@Sundara229]

@@iPlayOnSpica true

[@EmyN]

Damn you are living history

[@walker-zero9255]

As a latino you definitely got soft hands

[@dzonikg]

Yes everybody in west drive Mercedes and BMW ...classic never happened story . Then why is Dacia Sandero most sold car in EU,with other Dacia is also in top 10 most sold car...and in top 10 ..8 are small city cars (read cheapest) . First Mercedes or BMW is only on 35 place on the list and that is Mercedes A class

[@cobytang]

As a person growing up in wealthier parts of East Asia, I must say shopping malls in not-as-wealthy countries surprised me in a good way. I'm used to fancy and comfortable malls in Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, but I didn't expect to see the same level of quality in Bangkok malls. Sure, Bangkok is the country's capital, but I went to a regional capital city in Southeast Poland, and a mall in that city can rival malls in central Tokyo, Singapore or Hong Kong.

[@techtutorial9050]

As a Thai person, let me disagree, our mall is no where near as good as the ones I’ve been in Hong Kong or Japan, even the best ones in Bangkok.

[@robertlmao_]

Was it Rzeszów?

[@notreallyhere67]

Your first mistake was going to the southeast portion of Poland :P It's not representative of the rest of the country :D

[@robertlmao_]

@@notreallyhere67 Przynajmniej pozytywnie się wypowiedział, chociaż centra handlowe nijak się mają do reszty zacofanego Podkarpacia

[@notreallyhere67]

@@robertlmao_ "chociaż centra handlowe nijak się mają do reszty zacofanego Podkarpacia" dokładnie :)

[@dation8000]

Actually malls in germany are starting to get empty, you often see just posters and some items from other shops behind the glass fronts so the mall doesnt appear as empty as it actually is

[@gabe8390]

Since Corona, many shops in the malls have closed.

[@ElOrgulloDeJalisco2]

I am an American whos backpacking across Central Europe (Poland, Germany, Czechia, and Austria) and what Adam says is correct about malls here. I have been to malls in Krakow, Innsbruck, and Munich and they're all integrated with the public transportation system (i.e being next to the Central Bus/rail station or they're within close reach from the central/hbf station). Also, the anchor stores are grocers rather than department stores (think Mpreis or Carrefour). Even the outlet stores as well are super close to the train/bus stations (i.e Brenner/Brennero Italy; loads of austrians go there to buy groceries and other stuff and hop back onto the bus/train back to Innsbruck). Tbh i dont think this can be copied in the US because most Americans have stockholm syndrome about car ownership and urban design in the US and the fact that land is still plentiful in North America. I frequently butt heads with Americans about this and i frequently get called anti American by the dumbass cadre of boomers who have never left their state. I guess I'll emigrate to europe (helps that my girlfriend is austrian to sweeten the decision).

[@amygdalae]

I never thought of Stockholm syndrome in this context. I might steal that.

[@sunshineandwarmth]

No. Most boomers backpacked wherever they could, any place in the world, even if they had to beg to get to the next place. You have to understand that ppl were grownups at 18, earning their own living, getting married and having kids. The boys were eligible for the draft even though the legal age was 21. They used to cop beers by telling the barkeeps, "I'm old enough to die in the war but not old enough to buy a beer?" Like the Europeans who had "gap year", the Americans prior to settling down had road trips across the country or backpacking through foreign lands to see some of the world "before getting maimed or killed in Vietnam", or so they justified their adventures to their parents. There was a draft then. There was no choice about going to war except to claim CO status and run to Canada. But those guys weren't allowed back in the US for years, and then only bc of the ppl who protested the war, wh included many returning vets. Unlike kids today whose "friends" are all electronic strangers, boomers were much closer to friends, on the whole, than blood family, due mostly to the extreme difference in ideologies. With so many ppl wi the same age group and do many causes to fight for, they joined forces around the world, looked out for each other, and valued those relationships. Their children, gen X, 1 and 1/2 times the size of the baby boom, seemed to be a bit lost, probably bc that's when women began working and their children became "latch-key" kids. The call of the wild was probably of less interest to young ppl who grew up fending for themselves and were used to coming home from school, locking themselves in an empty house to entertain themselves w chores and homework until a mom showed up.

[@AirLancer]

@@sunshineandwarmth "Boomer" doesn't literally mean actual baby boomers when used in this context. It's slang for a (usually) older person that's set in their ways and generally proud of their ignorance, among other traits. A young person can be a dumbass boomer too.

[@sunshineandwarmth]

@@AirLancer thanks for the heads up, but maybe you should get rid of that definition since it seems to be a thinly veiled explanation or PC to put enmity between ppl? The very idea of children and grandparents not being a support for each other (boomers and snowflakes?) is a real tragedy, don't you think? We should probably start teaching each other rather than finding ways to isolate each other even further. Each if us possesses great power to wound or heal. What we choose to do w our power determines our lives and our future.💖

[@HybridMiranda]

If my mom saw you call the Czech Republic 'Czechia' she'd have a conniption XD she immigrated from Czechoslovakia in 1984, she has a lot of country pride. Apparently a lot of the older Czech crowd hates the 'ia' put on the back (I forget exactly why, I think it makes them feel too much like Slovakia, Bulgaria, etc- they'd prefer being distinct lol). I am jealous of your trip, though, have fun!

[@nellitheretrogamer8666]

Interesting how this video came up, because just a short time ago I read a news article about how malls are really popular here in Finland, whereas in the US they are dying out. The researcher who was interviewed said that the key difference is that here, malls always include stores that sell everyday stuff, such as grocery stores and pharmacies. People go there to do their necessary shopping and then end up visiting the other shops, too. It is also true what you say in the end of the video, that here malls are in places where people go anyways. Many people go to have lunch to restaurants or cafes that are in malls because they are within a walking distance from where they work.

[@foobar1500]

Maybe the most important store to have is Alko which has monopoly rights to selling any alcohol stronger than about 5 % by volume. A mall without one is doomed.

[@Pidalin]

Here in Czechia, especially in Prague, you have mostly metro station under all bigger shopping malls and people actually don't really go to shop there anymore, they just spend time there, sit in restaurants, fast foods, caffés, visiting cinemas etc....I think it's not about shopping anymore, but ofcourse when you need some everyday shopping, there is mostly some Tesco or something like that. I would say that shops with electronics are daying, most of people are just going there to looking at products and then they buy it online. I actually don't like cinema in shopping malls because in some massive malls, it's hard to find it and it takes some time to get there, but this is a new trend and old multiplex cinemas from 90s are dying and most of big cinemas are only inside of shopping malls now, with few exceptions in center of Prague. I would say that those massive malls in middle of nowere are changing, there are mostly just hobby markets now, which makes sense, you probably won't go for 500 kg of bricks by metro or tram and those everyday malls are mostly in center. But even these malls behind city are mostly accessible by public transportation and we have even a lot of massive hobby markets near center near to metro station, so even when you need to buy only something small like some screws or nails, you can do it without car.

[@CaptainPrincess]

my nearest mall Kamppi is built on TOP of the metro and long distance bus station, with a 24hr grocery right opposite the bus terminal so its always catching and supplying travelers

[@foobar1500]

@@CaptainPrincess Six out of top ten Finnish shopping malls by sales are on the capital area, and five out of those are connected with rail, and most of them are also very reachable by bus (several have a dedicated bus terminal). Nine out of top ten Finnish malls by visitor count are on the capital area, eight of them are connected by rail and almost all have also very good bus connections. Kamppi Centre is a bit of an outlier in this bunch along with Citycenter, with rather low amount of money consumed per visitor, but it is nonetheless, among with others, a good demonstration of the fact that placing a shopping centre in an public transit intersection (even without vast amount of parking space) is a good idea. This doesn't stop some people making up very strange claims, for instance that capital area shopping malls are suffering from being hard to reach by car, or even more surreally, that public transit, particularly rail transit, is destroying their success. Facts and their interpretation really don't matter to these people. I've heard, for instance, that Kamppi Center would have lost customers because the metro station under it was opened - well, the place was metro station first, the shopping mall came only later. I've also heard that their visitor count dropped because Länsimetro is a disaster and made people use cars; claim that completely ignores that once Länsimetro opened, it allowed people to skip change of transit for many in Kamppi Centre , and the fact that Covid epidemic shifted people more to remote working, permanently. I've also hear similar claims on other of these shopping centres, suggesting that sales have slumped because of public transit becoming more available. Often these people don't even check statistics which point exactly the opposite to their claim. I really feel they're part of some sort of a cult. It is understandable that apart from the capital area and couple select cities (... which put together, host about half of the population) Finland is mostly so sparsely populated that a life without a car is at best a chore, but this really isn't a case to a significant extent on the capital area. I really wonder what, exactly, the people with poor arguments and clear ignorance of statistics think they're gaining by their rants.

[@bmw803]

U.S. Idiotic CEOs, wall st. Killed the Anchor stores, which helped kill malls also ran by mega Real Estate firms that were out of touch with what's going on locally. That's what killed U.S. malls.

[@britamericaball2505]

I live in the Philippines, malls here are commercial and even social points... due to a lack of public parks and air-conditioning. Malls here, unlike America are well designed with a lot of transport option, one mall is so big that it is accessible by two train stations and has a bus terminal for buses all the way to provinces 80km away from Metro Manila. Two malls of rival companies even fought for the location and branding of the North Triangle Common Station that delayed the construction by nearly a decade. It's easy to go around in malls, but supply isn't always there, long lines for public transport is always an headache.

[@reimuhakurei2123]

Lets go peenoise

[@stephenphillips6245]

Malls in the 1940s used to be whole blocks of stores ...with activities and entertainment as well. Shopping used to be an experience..in both Canada and the US.

[@player400_official]

I live in Gdańsk, Poland. Here all new malls are built in the most dense urban areas possible. There are literally malls across the street from a complex of apartment buildings. Or near a place popular for tourists.

[@theultumateprezes6379]

Most cities in Poland also have a mall very close to the train station. For example in Warsaw one of the entrances to the Złote Tarasy mall is just upstairs from the platforms of the Central Station. Like, if you got of the train, you literally only need to take an escalator and turn right. There are also trams, buses and metro within 5 minutes of the mall.

[@ousou78]

​@@theultumateprezes6379in France or at least in and near Paris, Malls are indside big train stations like the the Train station "Paris Saint Lazare", "Chatelet les Halles"or the one of the "La Defense" CBD or rather its 3 Malls( one small underground Mall integrated to the train station and 2 giant ones outside the station).

[@2Face21]

You mean Metropolia (next to the train station), Balticia (?) (the other side of the train station) and Forum (near city central). And if I'm not mistaken the Forum was the last one build with design from Dutch architecture.

[@StaszkoProductions123]

@@theultumateprezes6379 Is Poznań there is a mall literally above the main train station xD

[@CuriousFrog]

Maybe another reason i notice is in australia our "malls" have large grocery stores on the corners, so people walk through the retail sections to get to the different shopa for their weeks shop, in the US i dont think malls sell groceries/daily needs as much

[@underagetoaster]

Same here in Malaysia, a lot of our malls have big grocery stores connected to them in some way, also lots of restaurants, and a lot of them have good outdoor eating space that has great ambiance

[@Park501]

In my experience when I visited the US and Canada, it was a little of both, some understood to do it the Australian way and have the stores most people travel there for at the furthest areas so you have to walk by everything And than there were the other kind, more often than not, the large store was separate from most of the mall, with other small restaurants and stores nearby hoping you would walk into them from the carpark, so say you go to walmart, you park at walmart, than if you want to visit Bestbuy or something you get back in your car, drive to their section of the carpark, and go in their store, pretty bad planning, it worked a little better in more temperate areas, but if it was hot like in LA, or cold, like most of the country most of the time, especially in Canada than nobody is walking for 10 minutes through a car park to go to one of the smaller shops unless that is specifically the reason you went there

[@aycc-nbh7289]

Some of them do.

[@Spacey_key]

Oh yeah, in my town we have a mall like that, it's five minutes away from my school, every lunch break I walked there to get some food because it was cheaper than in bakery

[@chivasroco1752]

yeah but that is no garanty for the mall to be profitable. In Germany all malls have the big groccery store not only attached but as the main attraction of the mall. And more often then not this groccery shop would be the only reason to go to a mall.

[@jaymercer4692]

My local shopping centre is in Cambridge and often the quickest way to get from one part of the city to another is through it. It is itself a very useful public footpath that acts as a shortcut through the buildings in the city centre. It makes it trivial to pop into a shop to get something when your just naturally walking there.

[@Deciheximal]

We had this same transportation problem when the malls were thriving. Perhaps there's another element - American malls sell *junk*. A whole store dedicated to ball caps. Endless markup jewelry. Here's a store where you can pay to paint cups. Shoes marked up to 2000% percent of production cost. Gee, come on in!

[@SKy_the_Thunder]

Location, location, location! Europe has dying malls too, definitely - but one thing I can confirm from experience is that the immediate location of said malls is typically the deciding factor. And that's not exclusively about outskirts vs. city center as well: In the city I live in, two malls come to mind. One is pretty small and located in the city center, just about 2 minutes away from the historical town hall on foot. The other is a sprawling complex, located at the very edge of the city, bordering only low density residential districts and industrial areas. But it's the inner-city one that's basically dead, while the ones in the outskirts is thriving. Why? Demand. The historical city center is a largely car-free area with a large boulevard running from the side facing the central station (5~10 minutes on foot or 2 by bus) past the mentioned town hall to the plaza in front of the cathedral, which borders an inviting complex of parks. This entire area is lined with stores of every category and size. The mall however was a couple minutes outside that immediate area, in some side street. It's out of the way, barely visible among the other multi-story buildings and doesn't really offer the correct floor space for businesses that can rely on people explicitly looking them up beforehand. The only businesses still alive in there are a cinema, a large restaurant, a large electronics market, and the bowling alley in the basement is barely hanging on. The mall on the outskirts on the other hand at first glance seems entirely out of the way of everything - but it isn't. It's located right between the university and the district housing the majority of younger IT companies. All these people flock there during breaks or stop by there to pick things up on their way home (so they don't have to explicitly go anywhere else, or hope the package they ordered arrives while they're home). Additionally, one of the major access roads to the city runs right behind it, making it the first stop for anyone from towns and villages this side of the city. So yeah. Build malls where and how (and if) they make sense and they'll do fine.

[@mardus_ee]

Which city and country?

[@SKy_the_Thunder]

@@mardus_ee Paderborn, Germany. Barely big enough to be called a "city", but still the biggest thing in our corner of the woods.

[@ryanweible9090]

Very good analysis, i would add a fourth issue, as someone who loved going to malls, consolidation. In my younger days my hobbies included listening to music, playing video games, and reading. i loved going to the local malls because there were different companies that each had different layouts and concentration, one mall i might go to for pc games at a babbages, another might have a great bookstore, but there were variances and it was looking for something that justified the different locations, then they started gobbing one another up and suddenly all game store were gamestops, all bookstores were barnes and nobels, and all music stores were fye's. and a further reality check hit when toys r us closed, it had gobbled up all the other toy stores and became the only toy chain(outside of anemic toy sections at local department stores) so when it died the toy store just kind of became extinct, and hunting for things for kids grew much harder. yeah we went online because there was nowhere local to shop. so not only were the mergers killing off competiton which caused prices to rise, but they were large and ungainly, so they were more vulnerable to downturns wrecking them. All of your points are valid, but my non-academic observation is that consolidation played a major role in killing the mall as we know it. Honestly, when i want something, i want it nowish, not 2-3 business days from now, and with shipping and handling cost. and often going to places would spark an interest in something i had not been thinking about reading or listening to, online doesnt have that kind of presentation.

[@strayedarticle2838]

That's a really good example of how monopolies can make the economy less resilient.

[@franc9111]

I live in France and I can tell you that quite a number of centres commerciaux are either closing or are in big financial trouble. The rents for retail outlets are going through the roof, whether it's in a town or city centre or in the centres commerciaux.

[@Slane583]

I will have to add as well, that European cities in general are far better laid out and far friendlier to foot travel or bicycles. They utilize alternative travel like metro systems (such as the ones you showed) which helps add to the foot travel. European cities and towns were built around foot travel. Cities here in the US were built around vehicular travel and nothing more. Pretty much being designed to SELL you the way they want you to get around. Every step of it is a cash grab and nothing else. I live in a rural part of NY and even my small town is designed the same way. There aren't many streets in town that have side walks except the two main streets going into the village and the intersecting side streets that connect to them. Every other street including mine is all road. It was literally designed for getting around in automobiles. When I go to work every morning I always encounter a woman walking her dogs in the middle of the road because there's nowhere else to walk. Once you get off the road shoulder you're instantly in someone's front lawn. I will also agree to your statement about bad urban planning. Just outside of town there are the remains of what used to be a strip mall. As far as I know it was conceived by a company out of Quebec, Canada. They were trying to target potential shoppers coming through the border from Montreal to get more commerce traffic here in town. The problem? The choice of stores they were planning to open up. They were all high-end expensive brands aimed at shoppers coming through the border from big cities. Meaning the whole thing was aimed at people traveling from the big city who had high paying jobs. The chosen location? Just outside the border into Canada and placed in a small rural town surrounded by farms, warehouses, brokerages and gas stations. So they were literally trying to pedal a high-end shopping plaza with expensive brands aimed at people with high paying jobs coming from Montreal and they placed it in a small rural town inhabited by people who didn't have the money to afford such things. Aiming your sights at tourists while ignoring the towns people is the dumbest thing you can do in this area when it comes to opening any kind of store. If the towns folk can't by from your store it fails almost instantly, such is the case with this old strip mall. Now there's an awful decayed eye sore just outside of town because of some dumb company's bad planning. People coming through the border only stop here to fuel up their vehicles and grab groceries because they're on their way to Florida. There's no sights to see or things to do here so it's not like they're stopping here for the typical touristy stuff. It's mostly just supplies and fuel.

[@adrianradu2332]

So just before actually watching, my take is that unlike European malls, american malls tend to not be integrated within cities and densely populated areas. In Romania for example, you have the malls built around dense living complexes and intersections with public transport stops. As a result, the malls are always busy. In America I imagine you have to basically go out of town by car which is highly inconvenient.

[@d3thkn1ghtmcgee74]

Pretty much lol

[@DennisSchmitz]

In some German cities like Munich you have a metro stop inside the mall. These malls are doing great in comparison, too.

[@aycc-nbh7289]

No, the U.S. has its share of malls in dense population centers. For example, New York City has the World Trade Center and Cleveland has its underground city.

[@grisflyt]

America works like that in just about everything. You want to go out with friends and have a beer? Then you need a "dedicated driver." Everything has to be more or less planned.

[@ivangordienko8081]

Literally the tldr of the video

[@stepbro4077]

One point I hoped you’d mention is the fact that outside the United States, malls are treated more as public social space than a space strictly for buying and selling goods. Where I live, the local mall is where I go to take a breather, have some coffee and meet up with my friends, maybe watch a movie. The other aspect of it is a bonus

[@InfernosReaper]

In the US malls are *supposed* to be a social space, too. The problem is that they're inconvenient to get to and everything's too expensive for the hassle. Take the local mall(for lack of a word for it) here. There is no mass transit, but it is also by a junction between 2 major highways and the interstate, as well as an intersection point for 3 suburb cities. And no one shops there because it's too expensive and there are cheaper shopping options that are at most 5 minutes further, if they aren't actually closer to where people live. That's why the Sam's down the street from the mall does more business in day than the mall does in 1 week.

[@charlesunderwood6334]

In London several were built on the edge of the City in the 80s and 90s- these are generally in decline whereas the more recent Westfield is within central London is thriving.

[@jaxxbohol6475]

Good points. However Malls in America fail because the owners charge outrageous rents to the companies that lease, so the companies leave and set up where it’s cheaper. Another thing is malls don’t have gyms, movie theaters, children’s playgrounds and other family centers where families can come to when it is too hot 🥵 or cold 🥶 outside.

[@gumansingh9807]

In French cities a lot of malls are very convenient not only because they're well-integrated in the city but also because, in addition to regular mall shops and restaurants, they host grocery stores, pharmacies, butcher shops, boulangeries, hair saloons/barber shops and all kind of stores that can serve you daily, all of which add up to make the mall very lively no matter when you go there. So when you live nearby or are just passing by downtown, you can stop and get something you need. I often go to the one in my city, 5 minutes of walking and i'm there. I also have a corner shop 20 sec from where i live, and a small grocery store, a boulangerie a butcher shop and a barber 1-2 minutes away (walking). Shout out to the city of Nancy and to Saint-Seb 👍

[@tgriffith1350]

Nancy is a beautiful city (I live in Treves). But one limitation to most French malls is that they close typically at 8 pm (or maybe 9 if you're lucky). This is the same as here in the Rhineland. You've got to go to southwestern Europe to see shopping center culture at it's prime - open until 10 pm or even midnight, with entertainment centers in their food courts.

[@gumansingh9807]

@@tgriffith1350 This is true yes, i think its due to the fact that our malls aren't really design with entertainment in mind as you said

[@tgriffith1350]

@@gumansingh9807 I think it's a great idea to have entertainment in the food court area. You can grab good food (and good price), then a beer. Then you can go smoke outside (the good stuff), and then go play some arcades and bowling, maybe visit a few stores - typically even a cinema is there. Everything is usually new in the shopping centers I saw in Spain, Portugal, Italy. It seems like the ideal for what a shopping mall should be.

[@Santiago-in1xf]

Lille is like that. Mall right next to the train station and city core near the other ...distance between the 2 stations is like .5km

[@julianfull280]

@@tgriffith1350 Here in Colombia things are just like you describe, and the thing that closes last is cinema when the 10 pm movie ends. You're right, in adition to city integration, entertainment is a key reason for malls to be succesful. Typically groups of friends just go to the malls to eat and walk around to see what's new in stores as a fun and relaxing plan. We call it "vitrinear" lol. Except malls here don't have butcher stores or "boulangeries". Both of them are more like small cornerstores here.

[@thomaspatricio]

Adam is absolutely correct on the 3rd point. Malls in Canada with easy access to transit and are integrated in the urban fabric or are in areas that are becoming more urban, are actually thriving. In fact, many of these malls in Canada are going through a process of becoming mixed use neighbourhoods with massive parking lots being turned into residential areas. The malls that are further out in deep suburbia with no easy urban traffic, on the other hand, are dying off...

[@Ptitnain2]

Exactly!

[@nomercynodragonforyou9688]

Sounds nice

[@morenofranco9235]

Here, in Cape Town, our malls are in the middle of neighbourhoods. I can walk to one in less than 2 minutes. Also our malls have parking garages. 4 or 6 floors. To save ground space.

[@barttool]

Here in Rotterdam there are basically two malls (Zuidplein and Alexandrium) and both of them are struggling to stay afloat, even with all the advantages mentioned in the video. I think it has a lot to do with the urbainsm + lifestyle in the Netherlands: - There are many street-level commercial space that is much better integrated into the cities - Stores cannot afford to stay open past 6pm, therefore there is a very small window of time where workers can get to the mall and shop - People simply do not want to spend time inside a mall, they'd rather do anything else

[@InfiniteDeckhand]

To all of you who say ''oH, BuT eUrOpEaN mAlLs ArE dYiNg As WeLl'', that applies primarily to malls that follow the American model. As in, those outside of high-density areas and with little to no public transit connection. Adam even showed Chemnitz as an example of that.

[@MaxJones123]

Not true for the malls in Mannheim and Ludwigshafen (Germany). Both in the center and dying. / edit: „dying“ in the form of good, small brands moving out and bigger ones moving in - slowly dying I would call it.

[@evergreen1326]

Yes

[@kevefeny]

@phthalo yes but that's not a bad thing in Europe's case tbh My city with 100k residents has 3 malls as well as more than twice as many shopping centres. Most of which offers the same things. It's completely understandable why some of them are dying, like who the fuck needs so many of them? Half of them could be easily swapped to green space or housing and the only thing people would notice is that the city improved.

[@Duck-wc9de]

All the malls I use (Viseu and Lisbon, Portugal) are outside of the cities and have terrible (or even none, in the case of Viseu) public transportation. And yet, they are fine. Oeiras park, in the "suburbs" of a suburb, 50min bus ride Cascais shopping, 40 min bus ride Palácio do Gelo (viseu, one of the largest malls in Portugal), there isnt even a bus If people want to get there, people will get there. Its more an issue of what they have and if there are another options. For instance, there is a mall that is actually close to one of the most used metro lines in lisbon, inside the capital, with reasonable public transportation and its one of the least used, only for football fans during footabal games (because its adjacent to a stadium). You know why? It's ugly and there are another options, stores closed, less people, more stores closed, less people, and now it has some restaurants and cinemas where people go when you want to be with few people.

[@leDespicable]

@@MaxJones123 Do they have newer ones that are more popular? One example I can think of is Passau. The old mall (Donau Passage) was practically dead because the newer mall (Stadtgalerie) was simply better.

[@IIITheDeadGamerIII]

I think another issue is that - most people are busy after working becuase they have things to do. Parents need to look after kids, cook meals. Adults without kids may be exhausted from their job so the idea of travelling to a mall is a burden, unless you work at a mall. Teens, however, have some purchasing power from their parents if they're given an allowance or some money to spend so they go wherever is easiest to hang out. Banning kids from stores means less foot traffic around malls by teens who want a place to hang out. Granted some teens will be at home gaming or watching youtube or tiktok. I think so much of that is because teens don't have the spaces necessary to spend time or hang out with friends. Malls are an easy place for a group of friends to spend time with each other.

[@jameskeefe1761]

Kids generally dont have much money to spend but upper middle class people with children can spend heavily on their children , so it comes to collapse also of middle class or a change in spending habits away from consumer goods and towards experiences

[@SomePotato]

That's a very US-centric view. European cities usually have more attractive hangout centers than malls.

[@carlosesteban5601]

Sad reality that there's nothing else to do. Imagine just strolling through town grabbing something to eat then sitting down in a park and it took you just a 10 minute walk. Dropping kids of at the mall because the only way to get there is by car would suck.

[@slygarci6138]

i like a point you made, i bet if teens had more places to hangout ,theyde get off the internet or decrease the use

[@kubok3596]

Completely agree with your 3rd point, malls should be integrated into the city, allowing people to spend more time there. My home city is Bratislava and it does it well, the malls are situated at reasonable locations, although the number of malls for such a small city (even though it's a capital) is getting a bit out of hand.

[@PlittHD]

at least in Germany these big concrete block malls have been dying since the year 2000. they have been bailed out by the government a couple of times. Then a new investor takes over and take some more government money five or 10 years later.

[@ichmiel1316]

Yop i know a lot of these mals

[@Knnnkncht]

And there is only the Galeria Kaufhof - Karstadt Mall chain left, which went bankrupt the second time in 3 years..

[@macx7760]

​@@Knnnknchti wouldnt call galeria karstadt a mall

[@mstrmren]

Where I live all malls around me are either completely dead or have like 5 stores left. The exception is malls directly in the city center, however most mid-size cities that have lively malls have their half their pedestrian shopping street empty because of online retail...

[@mikhailiakoubovski]

Historically, US has been leading the innovation on this planet ever since the WW2. (Granted, some of these innovations are nothing to be proud of but nevertheless...) The malls first appeared in the US and here is where they will die first as well. Don't worry, European malls will follow suit soon!

[@cartographer1977]

As a certified planner (AICP), accredited member of the Congress for the New Urbanism (CNU-A), and a long-time member of Strong Towns... *applause* Well done, Adam. 😀

[@renatomsgomes]

Could you explain to europeans why urban planning in usa is simply brainless

[@renatomsgomes]

Is no insult is curiosity

[@orbanfurer-bg6me]

beautiful hungarian accent from an orbanus subject straight from the nazi orbanus: "we europeans" LOL

[@atwcat9370]

@@orbanfurer-bg6me What does this even mean

[@pialindh8716]

@@orbanfurer-bg6me How did you get the Nazis involved? It´s not even the right century. You are way off.

[@lollypop2414]

There are a lot of reasons for why malls aren't doing well in the US, including what's mentioned in the video. The biggest issues, in my opinion, are suburban sprawl, the layout of US malls, and lack of good public transportation. I will give the city I live nearest to as an example. I live in the Rust Belt part of the US, in a small town, approximately thirty minutes drive from a small city (population of just under 300K). One interesting note is that our city square miles/km wise is about the same size as Paris, France, but Paris has a population of 2 million people to our < 300 thousand. Our city used to have three malls, but in the early 2000s two of them closed down, and for about the last 20 years we've been left with our largest mall, which is still doing pretty well because it's the only one left in the city and people who live nearby likely frequent it. I, however, rarely make the trip to the mall because it's nearly an hour drive for me. There's no public train system in our city, and the bus system is only available in certain areas. Anyone who lives in the suburbs or in a small town must drive to get anywhere inside the city proper. Inside the mall is a food court (with a bunch of different kinds of fast food), a couple of sit down restaurants, a couple anchor stores (Macys and JCPenney), and a bunch of smaller clothing stores. There are a few shops that sell other specific items, such as books, candles, or jewelry, but that's about it. There is no grocery store, no pharmacy, no bank(s), no electronics stores, no movie theater (some malls do still have theaters though), etc. In other words, there's no reason to shop there unless you're in the area and want to do some clothes shopping. Every suburban neighborhood has the same fast food restaurants, more choices for sit down restaurants than the mall has, multiple banks, multiple grocery stores (Walmart/Target/Kroger/Meijer/etc), multiple pharmacies, and often strip malls that feature clothing stores, craft stores, jewelry stores, electronics stores, hardware stores, and so on. So, most people just shop within their own neighborhood instead of driving to the mall. If you live in a small town you still probably have most necessities nearby, so it's easier if you want to do something like clothes shopping to order online and pay for the shipping, than to drive a long distance to go to the mall. We have a lot of space in the US, and we Americans love our personal space, so it's not surprising that our cities developed the way they did (there's also a lot of social issues that played into suburban sprawl). It's just a completely different situation than in most European countries that are smaller, have good public transport, and have populations mostly living in urban areas.

[@ergosteur]

Just the other day my American friend was so amazed that the malls near me in Toronto, Canada weren’t dead and that I go “so often”. But it’s like you said, the malls I go to are by metro stations or literally on the way during a downtown walk. I don’t make a conscious decision to go there. Also, a lot of our car-centric malls with nothing around them are also dying.

[@UzumakiNaruto_]

Two of the biggest malls in the suburbs of the GTA are also fairly isolated. Both Yorkdale Mall and Square One are always busy and while they do have transit links, there's still not too much surrounding those malls when you walk outside. They've both had some nice renovations done to them and it seems like plenty of people have no problems with going out of their way to make the trip to visit those places.

[@risk2691]

Im starting to appreciate our polish malls. I never thought I would say that.

[@paulocbn]

zloty tarasy is really cool

[@hermenegildakociubinska6665]

I don't like malls in general, but Manufaktura is a pretty cool place.

[@zalew]

instead of dying, they suck out life from the city streets.

[@patrickcunniff5936]

The rise of more antisocial behaviour in the malls also contributed to people not wanting to go. That was why I stopped.

[@JohnstasBACK]

Antisocial behavior such as what?

[@PlatinumAltaria]

@@JohnstasBACK Being American in public.

[@marcusireland5696]

@@PlatinumAltaria fr

[@PrivateMemo]

Doubt it. Our social behaviour hasn't significantly changed over hundreds, if not thousands of years, in that regard. That's just confirmation bias on your part.

[@patrickcunniff5936]

@@JohnstasBACK fights, shoplifting, robberies in the parking lot, loud mouthed kids making scenes, on and on...not worth it