Why Vader Couldn't Beat Luke in Return of the Jedi

[@jaymz0608]

Even just from ESB, the Emperor set the tone of concern early. “He could destroy us”

[@anthonyp6896]

This is the Luke Skywalker I wanted to see in the sequel trilogy

[@vintvarner16]

After Luke kicked Vader down the steps and Vader had to look up at him, all I can imagine him thinking "damn Kenobi taught him that f-ing high ground move." Then he hears Obi-Wan's voice in his ear "Vader, I am the high ground". Oh that would have pissed Vader off so much...lol

[@blakena4907]

Thanks for the chuckle, this is gold.

[@HenhousetheRed]

Novelizations aside, I always interpreted Vader's loss to Luke was more psychological in nature. Luke's strength was waxing while Vader was waning. His son began to succumb to the strength of the dark side, while Vader began to waver since seeing Luke on Endor. Wavering between light and dark a weakening of the Sith Lord. When Vader triggers Luke into going berserk, for the first time he was on the receiving end of a fully realized Skywalker falling to the dark side and it terrified him. During their final exchange (in the movies) where his son is so engrossed in battering down Vader, Luke is left completely open for a brief moment. But his father doesn't take it, because he's heartbroken and terrified, and even then doesn't want to kill his son. I interpret that last exchange as further proof of Vader's change of heart. A clear minded and focused Vader could have struck down Luke then and there.

[@rsxmaster]

Vader was fully focused, stated multiple times, and still failed to win against a holding back Luke

[@Beymaster20247]

Its amazing how strong Luke had grown in a short time compared to his father with over a decade in the Jedi order

[@markykrajky13]

That’s because Star Wars writers don’t know how to scale because that means that Luke should have a higher potential than Anakin but it not the case.

[@ADB358]

@@matthewbee128 He only "achieved it", because Vader saved him. Vaders legacy, and role are still greater. I love Luke though.

[@RetneysHolocron]

At least in Legends, its stated in SOTE that Luke does have a higher potential than Anakin. Vader states it multiple times, I talk about it in this video!

[@markykrajky13]

@@RetneysHolocron How does that work if Anakin has more midiclorians than Luke in legends?

[@markykrajky13]

@@matthewbee128 yes I know that I’ve heard everybody and their dog say that he was only 80% 0f palpatine at that point but I’m talking about Anakin without loss of limbs or burns on mustafar.

[@stevenmazey3976]

Yet Disney made Luke in the Sequel trilogy a completely different person.

[@mcs68419]

Those movies don’t exist.

[@saltcor]

Fr how are you going to take the guy who turned his father (the biggest villain in the entire galaxy) back to the light when everyone said he couldn’t, and then make him totally give up on his nephew. Kylo didn’t even have deep emotional trauma or fear of losing loved ones like Anakin, he basically just decided “muh dark side better” and Luke was like “it’s fuckin hopeless we have go either hide from him”

[@SniffHeinkel]

@@mcs68419 Unfortunately, they exist. That's what happens when you sell your soul to the House of Mouse.

[@mcs68419]

@@SniffHeinkel to me, they don’t exist. I ignore all the mouse stuff. I’ll watch a bit here and there, but I’ve only got room for the OT and the PT.

[@SniffHeinkel]

@@mcs68419 Star Wars: The Force Awakens was okay. Yeah, it was a little derivative, but it could have led to something better, but they fucked it all up by letting Ryan Johnson do Star Wars: The Last Jedi. Rogue One: A Star Wars Story was, in my opinion, the only Star Wars movie they made that was pretty decent.

[@tyranix9785]

I like how Luke is Sithed (blacked) out in ROTJ. ... It's neat to see how is character starts and ends in the movie. ... The writers had a great character here. ... They should have continued to used Luke to further explore the dualistic nature and never ending struggle of the force within in the later movies. ... How, light overcomes dark but dark corrupts light, in a never ending cycle. ... To offset how different force users tap into, control, and focus the different aspects of the force. ... And, the problems created when one abuses or relies too much on the force.

[@CDcooper3876]

The one thing we can’t forget is that Anakin/Vader was never the same after Mustafar . Yes he was able to channel his pain and anger to power him as Vader but a good portion of his physical body had been cut away as well as what was left of him was replaced with clunky cybernetics . His power in the force allowed him to move somewhat fluidly in the suit and fight as a formidable warrior but the fact that the vast majority of his foes he faced afterwards in either the purge or galactic civil war were vastly inferior in skill and power whenever he faced a worthy foe be it Obi Wan , Asoka and finally Luke he got hammered. Obi Wan soundly beat him once he found his strength and later on the final duel on Death Star Obi Wan held his own not trying to win but rather to distract Vader as to allow Luke and Leia to escape with the plans ,once they were away he merged with the force denying Vader the pleasure of finishing him off . Even Asoka was able to get upper hand on him and injure him before she saw his face and heard Anakin’s voice through the damaged mask and refused to kill him . When Vader faced Luke on Empire Luke was a stone cold rookie with only basic fundamentals being taught to him by Obi Wan and Yoda and yet Luke gave Vader much more of a fight than expected. By the time of Endor Luke had gained enough mastery of his power to be more than a match for the broken Vader . Luke was now strong but not nearly strong enough to beat Vader and Palpatine so Luke instead aimed to redeem Anakin which he did successfully and allowed Anakin to fulfill his destiny as the chosen one .

[@ADB358]

Asoka needed to be rescued in rebels, or she was going to die. And Kenobi "beat" Vader once on Mustafar. The Kenobi series isn't cannon, because it wasn't Lucas's series. That was Disney. Kenobi quit on the Death Star, because Vader was out of his league. Kenobi had no chance. You clearly are a new fan, who doesn't understand that Vader was 80% of prime Sidious's power, and a master of ALL forms.

[@CDcooper3876]

@@ADB358 ahh Vader fan boys . Always making excuses for their beloved bad man in black . Sorry but Kenobi is cannon along with rebels as well as Vader comics . (I hate Disney too but it is what it is. ) Vader was a shell of himself after Mustafar that’s painfully obvious and Lucas himself confirmed as much . To top it off we all saw the actual fights on the original trilogy Obi Wan was a little worse for wear but was holding his own and only once the squad of stormtroopers turned their attention to the duel did he give up the ghost giving Luke and Leia the window to escape. Empire we watched a complete rookie Luke push Vader much more than thought possible ( though true Vader clearly didn’t want to kill Luke he wanted to recruit him against Palpatine) and In ROTJ we all saw clearly,no rational excuses possible , the beat down Luke put on Vader ( lol and some of you fanboys still try to say how Vader didn’t really lose here either as if we didn’t all see ROTJ . ) Overall the question is : could Luke have beaten prime Anakin/Vader , the same Anakin Obi Wan faced on Mustafar who stormed the Jedi temple and killed many Jedi including multiple masters ? HELL NO . Obi Wan was able to pull off the “upset”because he knew Anakin well enough to be patient and wait him out till Anakin made a catastrophic mistake .( “high ground “ scene was a little ridiculous ) From that point on Anakin / Vader was a broken quadruple amputee on a respirator which weakened his connection to the Force substantially so getting beaten by a competently skilled Jedi master should have been expected as well as being flat owned by someone as powerful in the force as Luke once Luke knew how to use his power .

[@ADB358]

@@CDcooper3876 Its painfully obvious that Vader becomes a more refined duelist who master all 7 forms. His connection to the force is heightened, through pain and elimination of attachment. And his cybernetics give him enhanced strength, and durability. It has been confirmed that Vader is 80% of prime Sidious's power, and the Emperor is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Kenobi admitted that Vader was superior to the man he fought on Mustafar, and that he couldn't win on the Death Star.

[@blackseed68]

Luke is my favorite Jedi aswell. I have hope, one day they'll adapt legends content.

[@tareknader4100]

I’ve always wish they’d make a serious of Luke Skywalker journey after return of the Jedi to see what he did. I’d love to see his power using incredible character. One of my favorites. We see him in the Mandalorian. He comes in and saves the day. That was an incredible scene. I must’ve watched it 100 times this powers ridiculous. I wish they I wish to continue showing clips of Luke Skywalker

[@rsxmaster]

Because Luke was simply that good. The fan cope that's still going on over Vader 40 years later is genuinely hilarious

[@tareknader4100]

Amazing just wonderful video. I loved it. Luke is one of my favorites. There’s a pleasure to see that he is the strongest Jedi like father like son.

[@RetneysHolocron]

Thank you very much!

[@markredden311]

This is 1 I always felt like they missed an opportunity for an awesome movie with Shadows of the Empire. I had the novel, the comics, the "64" game and the whole line of toys. I read that book probably 4 times. I loved that story cuz it tied the 2 movies together so well. It is rare that anyone even mentions anything from it anymore. The Black Sun did get some name drops recently and I think I've even heard Xizor's name in recent times as well. Thanks 4 this video. I thoroughly enjoyed this 1.😊

[@mikewatkins3533]

He’s my favorite too. Especially his green lightsaber. Another powerful Jedi is Starkiller. I say both are even in force abilities and lightsaber combat. Cheers🍺🍺🎸😎

[@jasonsager6535]

The only thing that i myself overlooked was Luke's inability to deflect the Emperor's force lightning. I always wished Luke could've put up more of a fight at least initially with the Emperor gaining the advantage and nearly killing him then Vader saving him.

[@49erNell]

In Star Wars Legends, didn't Mace Windu Force Ghost help train Luke, unless I'm mistaken?

[@Walid-mk4jo]

I think that's false..

[@benniblanco632]

Luke is the strongest Jedi of all time

[@MLBlue30]

Also Rey fans.

[@saltcor]

What makes people so reluctant to believe Luke is so powerful is that we only see him through the dated cinematography of the OT, the spectacular battles and force abilities featured in the prequels hadn’t been thought up and the technology to put it on screen didn’t exist, the choreography was much more simple. We also see him in the sequels of course but they totally ignored his character arc, Luke should literally be the LAST person in Star Wars to give up on Kylo, his own nephew. So I basically disregard it altogether. Legends and the general post-ROTJ lore is where Luke’s character really shines and his power is really portrayed. But George Lucas himself said that Luke is what Anakin had the potential to be, so he’s pretty much the most powerful force user we’ve ever seen on screen, just not necessarily at the time of ROTJ, rather later on.

[@benniblanco632]

@@saltcor You also get an idea in the last episode of season 1 of Mandalorian.

[@beentheredonethat5908]

Not at this stage, but he is equal to what anakin was. I dont know why he says he is the strongest jedi of all time, at this stage. He is not stronger then anakin was, stronger then yoda , he would become stronger eventually, as he was Anakins son, but he wasn't there yet, if he was he woukd have been able to deflect Palpatines lightning , and had no issues in rotj. This new belief that Luke was stronger then any jedi ever at this stage is insane. Force potential doesn't equal how you are before you learn how to channel.

[@Beanmachine91]

i loved playing shadows of the empire for the nintendo 64

[@jeric5510]

Completely off topic, wondering any thoughts on how Palpatine would have handled the threat of Yuuzhan Vong? Any videos on them as well? Sorry been reading a lot of the Thrawn books, just curious

[@stakkadakka3427]

Luke was as powerful as Anakin but he never fell to the Darkside. Therefor Luke is the greatest Jedi of all time.

[@georgepapatheofilou6118]

Sad tale but befitting of ancient ones. Children rise to overthrow bad parent for power and then the next challenge of not repeating.

[@shawnoreilly4917]

Luke beat Vader because Vader was conflicted and Anakin was subconsciously helping Luke by "restricting" Vader

[@J1O2C3K4E5S]

Cause Vader never intended to kill him as stated

[@cadenspradlin4852]

Vader was also very conflicted, on Endor Luke stated to Vader “I feel the conflict within you” Vader responded “it’s too late for me” but indeed that was not the case. Vader was nowhere near his full potential during that fight due to how torn and conflicted Vader was

[@rsxmaster]

Already confirmed he was fighting with his full strength

[@cadenspradlin4852]

@@rsxmaster why would Luke risk his life after their duel, asking for his father to help? It was because he has been conflicted SINCE Empire Strikes Back, Vader was in a spiral after he found out the truth of what happened to Padme and that he had children. Padme said there was still good in him. Obi Wan couldn’t see it, but Luke did.

[@rsxmaster]

​@@cadenspradlin4852 Luke was fully ready to die, the point he was trying to make to Sidious was that he wouldn't turn, not that Vader had good in him. Vader is stated multiple times to have been giving it his all in that duel and to have been fighting at full strength, and that's that. Vader having good in him is irrelevant, that's been the case since ROTS per Padme, yet it hasn't stopped him from going all-out against people like Starkiller.

[@GingerClaw42]

Nailed it: The movie itself says Vader was conflicted (which technically overrules any novelization since it’s G-Canon) and many other C-Canon sources support this as well (such as Fact Files from the official star wars website). For example, Vader was unable to call upon the dark side to compensate for his suit like he normally could. Giving it “his all” in that context is basically meaningless. Plus, there are even signs of Vader’s conflict in Shadows of the Empire which aren't covered in this video, such as how thoughts of Luke drove the dark side from Vader (so he wasn't able to use it in their fight as a true Sith Lord). Luke is a prodigy, but still wasn't at Vader's level in ROTJ. Luke in fact said Vader could beat him easily even in 8 ABY when he fought Gethzerion. Not long after Return of the Jedi, Luke was still weaker than Lumiya who was way weaker than Vader. Of course, Luke would later surpass Vader, but not in ROTJ (that is really as ridiculous as it sounds).

[@MrInfinity418]

⁠@@GingerClaw42Luke didn’t say Vader could have easily beat him in that book. When gethz attacks him with the force he acknowledges that that’s what it would have felt like had Vaders goal been to kill him. Not the same thing. He continues to acknowledging her intentions were to kill where Vaders and the emperors were to turn him. Lumiya beat Luke in their first encounter because he was unfamiliar with her light whip. That’s why he easily beats her when he has the shoto. She can’t even block him from calling his saber to himself.

[@kseniaboytseva4714]

Because Vader wasn't fighting at full strength. He began an internal struggle between the light and the dark side. And neither of them wanted to kill each other. If the dark lord had been in better moral and physical shape, had not held back, without internal conflict, the outcome of the battle could have been different. Luke was lucky that his father began to wake up and return to the light, gradually gaining the upper hand over his inner demon Vader.

[@NateIsCorrupt]

Legends EU is actually the true SW continuity

[@arbbo1675]

I always believed Luke was the true "chosen one".

[@MrRasheed7]

Yo Retney..im wit you. I wanna😅 see a luke Skywalker animted series post ep 5 or 6 or both. right? That would be epic

[@FLAMINGBABYHEAD]

Its academic. Even if Vader had beaten Luke, he, Luke, and the Emperor would've all died when the rebel fleet destroyed the second Death-Star.

[@HighValueMan24]

But watch the poles always say Anakin by the stupid.

[@kojiattwood]

Seriously, no one ever mentioned the. Novelization of ROTJ??!

[@jamesstark2008]

Darth vader always said obi Wan has taught you well twice.He says that, so you could tell he still had respect. im surprised he even went to the dark side to begin with 😂

[@anthonyp6896]

It's no surprise to everyone that Luke Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in Star wars both Canon and the Legends

[@christianburnett236]

Yeah but what about if Anakin was never injured and had his full potential?...

[@snickle93fritz54]

Luke's a master at becoming a master. Vadar jealous cause it took him longer

[@General_Vaderz]

Thank god that was never canon, legends made Vader weaker than luke and almost everybody, in George lucas star wars (real star wars) Vader is way more powerful than Luke

[@deadlyart02]

What kind of man would look at his own son and beat him in a fight and be proud that he son lost everything you would have to be some kind of monster and Anakin is not a monster

[@ElisNnL]

Let’s be honest it’s because anikin never reached his full potential not Vader potential

[@shadowknight0979]

I feel like an uninjured Anakin Skywalker would be more powerful than Luke.

[@SHARKVADERS]

NNNNNNOOOOOOO

[@WHJeffB]

Vader couldn't beat Luke in RoTJ because of plot armor... Same reason Vader couldn't best Obiwan in either Revenge of the Sith or Kenobi. It's interesting that the being with the most midiclorians ever is repeatedly spanked by lesser beings, with the reason given is along the lines of attitude issues. I guess that's plausible, but it really shouldn't be.

[@peterlukacs3720]

Vader could have easily defeated Luke. He held back in part due to the Emperor’s will, in part for being in conflict. So neither was he allowed to, nor did he want to beat Luke. But able to - absolutely.

[@rsxmaster]

Complete opposite. Vader himself explicitly says in the ROTJ novel that he can't afford to hold back against Luke and then in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader where we see Vader's thoughts during the duel he explicitly says that can't let Luke win and become the Emperor's apprentice. Vader had every intention to win the duel, and he still failed to.

[@General_Vaderz]

​@rsxmaster thankfully it was never canon

[@rsxmaster]

@@General_Vaderz Was to the EU, which is what this video is on

[@chewher4171]

Luke was weak! Disney destroyed him. SHE is all that remains!!!!!!!!! WokeWars rules.

[@ressestevenson7309]

Luke kicked😂 his ass

[@brutalhonesty5138]

What is this BS?

[@ADB358]

Vader may have tried his best to disarm Luke, sure. But Vader was already weakening in strength from the light arising within. Vader's power relied on pain, and darkness. Luke was being consumed by the dark side for the first time, like Anakin in the Tusken village. Thus giving Luke his insane power surge. Had Vader wanted to genuinely execute Luke, he would've. Anakin beat Vader more so.

[@rsxmaster]

No evidence for that. He wanted to win the fight, stated multiple times, and he didn't, all the while Luke was holding back.

[@ADB358]

@@rsxmaster kzbin.info/www/bejne/hpjXoXidis9gjNE

[@ADB358]

@@rsxmaster kzbin.info/www/bejne/hpjXoXidis9gjNE

[@ADB358]

@@rsxmaster Yes there is evidence. Stupendous Wave just dropped a video on Vaders weakened state in ROTJ. In addition to what majority had suspected. Its nice to see new fans though.

[@rsxmaster]

@@ADB358 New fans like you are indeed nice to see, which is why I'm sure you haven't seen any of the following sources. Also as a side note, I'm going to need a better argument from you than bandwagoning. "This was not his wish, but the boy was strong-if it came, at last, to blows, yes, he would destroy Luke. He could no longer afford to hold back, as he once had." - Return of the Jedi Novel "On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man." - Return of the Jedi Comic "The battle between Luke and Vader raged throughout the throne room. Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but Luke held back, even ducking beneath a shadowed staircase when the fighting grew too intense." - Vader: The Ultimate Guide "My master wants Luke to win, Vader realized with some resentment. I will not give him that satisfaction." - The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader "Soon Vader was breathing hard through his respirator. I can't let Luke defeat me, Vader thought. I won't let the Emperor have him!" - The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader