Why Warp Talons are now 40k's most annoying unit... and how to beat them

Why Warp Talons are now 40k's most annoying unit... and how to beat them | 40k Datasheet Deep-Dive

Рет қаралды 11,022

Күн бұрын

#Warhammer40k
More TacticalTortoise: linktr.ee/tacticaltortoise
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
00:24 Datasheet Breakdown
08:27 Detachment Synergies
14:16 Damage Output
16:41 Whacking Warp Talons
19:57 Outro

Пікірлер: 93

@idonotlikethisonebit Ай бұрын

Just giving a heads up regarding the charge, If a model in the unit can end a move in base to base with a model in the enemy unit, it must (Core Rules, change phase, charging with a unit, last paragraph) so if ur roll was a guarantee to get in, u can't intentionally leave models out of B2b

@digitaldiamond1928 27 күн бұрын

This is what I was thinking so you would have to be careful if using rapid ingress to not have to do a 9” charge because you then might end up with more models than you wanted in b2b contact. Also opportunistic raiders can only be done on units not within engagement range anyway so why move 6” and then go into reserves when you could just go into reserves

@musicalcharge Ай бұрын

My opponent spending a CP every turn to make sure a chaff killing unit kills chaff without being killed in return seems...annoying, but not as annoying as actual cheap effective indirect fire that doesn't need any CP to function.

@davidjones4772 Ай бұрын

Cheap effective indirect fire? Pretty sure that doesn’t exist?

@musicalcharge Ай бұрын

@@davidjones4772 not any more it doesn't, but it did. I fear this less than deso spam.

@Swordsmansmith87 Ай бұрын

@musicalcharge Basilisk are 150 points. Pretty cheap for what they do.

@cavedog1989 Ай бұрын

Id say the mortor pit while is quite costly for full effect, its decent to good into msu. Especially into meq stats.

@Swordsmansmith87 Ай бұрын

@cavedog1989 I think 3d6+3 shots with lethals still kills enough talons to make them combat ineffective even with 0 ap.

@bodger8055 Ай бұрын

These videos on new and strong units are so helpful dude. Thanks for the content.

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

Glad it helped!

@tajj7 Ай бұрын

Well as a Blood Angels player seems like I have a decent amount of tools to deal with these, fights first from Judicar and Mephiston, Sanguinor for his special ability, and access to multiple flamestorms (Baal pred and LRR).

@newc1236 Ай бұрын

I could be wrong but the Index stratagem you show at the 11:06 time mark no longer exists? I think it was replaced with Torpefying Refrain in the Codex.

@d00ts Ай бұрын

Merciless Pursuit in Dread Talons can be super spicy with them as well. It creates situations where you actually want to roll low, i.e. pacting for lethals or something, to leave a unit alive so you can charge them when they fall back and trap them.

@d00ts Ай бұрын

The funny part though is if you battle shock them and they die on the desperate escape it can be catastrophic.

@ryankornacki9918 Ай бұрын

I just used my Stompa on the Waaagh! Turn. Used the dread mob detachment with the supercharged boilers stratagem. I got close enough for a 6 inch charge and tore through them all in one turn. So that’s my advice I guess, keep a suuuper dangerous melee unit next to your chaff when there’s a sizable number of these guys.

@danwilde4712 Ай бұрын

Really been thinking about Psykers for my Guard and the Infiltrators somehow seem necessary now

@GrimgorRulez Ай бұрын

Howling banshees are back in the game, brother!

@OneManArmy1973 Ай бұрын

Just started a CSM army, very valuable information for the newbie that I am, much appreciated.

@ColeNOXyd2nd Ай бұрын

pretty sure (around 5:00) you could have moved other models into engagement range

@T3RR4212 Ай бұрын

Right. If you can, you have to. Those weren't great examples of how to take advantage of the situation. He may have been able to move the rear models first such that the front models couldn't fit their bases on the other side so we're out of engagement

@briankohlman227 Ай бұрын

Can’t the enemy consolidate into the talons to prevent this?

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

If a unit did not charge and is not in engagement range, they can't be selected to fight - so no.

@dementiamaster12 Ай бұрын

Yes, and also pile in and charge moves on 10th require every model to end up base to base if possible, making his suggested move very difficult

@toferkrz946 Ай бұрын

Possibly, but that is dependant on the specific order of operations in the Fight phase and also kinda requires the Chaos player to make a mistake and put their Warp Talons in consolidation range.

@mikoajkosowski1750 Ай бұрын

The only way for this move to work would be against a unit with an already wounded model and if every Warp Talon was engaging only that single wounded model. It ain't happening.

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

@dementiamaster12 It's certainly possible to roll high on the charge roll and be forced into base contact, but with move blocks it happens a lot more than you'd think. Pile In and Consolidate moves are optional, so models already in a position to attack what they want just won't move.

@markus1351 Ай бұрын

I think this needs an errata to work at the end fo the opponents fight phase

@seppok8326 Ай бұрын

There are many ways to make them just spicy raptors and if someone can’t hack them then that’s on them. They hit hard only low defense 1w models and anything harder than that is going to survive.

@MattGoBragh Ай бұрын

Doesn't this assume you consistently make a 9" charge roll? How likely are you going to make that each turn?

@mischa3726 Ай бұрын

Thats why he suggests using rapid ingress. With 12" move you can set them up pretty well (bar screening). Pretty cp heavy tactic though

@shadowplotter Ай бұрын

theres a problem with the demo at 04:50 when charging if you can base to base you must so it drags in more of the unit

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

Depends on your charge roll, and if you can block off the bases

@shadowplotter Ай бұрын

@@TacticalTortoise i should also have remembered your doing this for demonstration purposes :P sorry mate!

@adolphzimmerman7882 Ай бұрын

This does not quite make sence as you have to end base to base if possible. Also not the opponent get to pile in before they can warp away?

@kryzys5385 Ай бұрын

They dont get to pile in because they did not charge anything and they are not in engagement range.

@adolphzimmerman7882 Ай бұрын

Still, you would have to be really good with blocking yourself, to create the situations Trevie showed.

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

It certainly depends on the charge roll, but comes up way more often than you'd think

@EyeBall720 Ай бұрын

When u say "at any point during the fight phase it was engaging an enemy unit" (3:05), is that not wrong as the rule state, on screen. "it IS with in engagement range" implying that it has to be at the point of activation

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

Those are the requirements to be eligible - if either was true during that phase, then it was eligible to fight that phase and can Warp Strike at the end.

@EyeBall720 Ай бұрын

@@TacticalTortoise Right your referring to the requirement of the ability, not its current eligibility to fight.

@jonathancoyle1571 Ай бұрын

I think in theory it's strong but on the table it will be overated

@pastaest929 Ай бұрын

How is indirect fire effective against them if they spend your whole turn in reserves?

Ай бұрын

Hitting them after Rapid Ingress? 🤔

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

They're likely going to be on the table at some point; where they deploy there or RI in. The CSM player could certainly just deep strike them and hope they hit the charge out of reserve but that's so much jankier.

@arj693 Ай бұрын

I am not sure your opponent during his turn can force you to sequence YOUR abilities in any specific order. I don't see what would stop you from declaring Opportunistic raiders, doing the fallback AND THEN declaring the Warp talon return to reserves ability.

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

The active player always determines the order in which simultaneous effects resolve - based on the exact format rules the inactive player will either have to declare all of their triggered effects first and allow the active player to dictate sequencing, or the active player will dictate the order in which the decision to use each effect is made (the rules are ambiguous on which way that interaction goes, but most of the time the difference is pretty meaningless).

@chromehunter2074 Ай бұрын

That's not true at all. It says end of the fight phase. Strat is used, then put back in strategic reserves. I play necrons and use hyper phase all the time. End of the turn is slightly different then end of the fight phase. It is possible for your opponent to surround the warp talons and force them to use a desperate escape. But there's nothing in the rules preventing a player from saying are you done your fight phase, they say yes, play the strat to fall back then back into reserves they go. Your opponent cannot prevent you from using a strat.

@arj693 Ай бұрын

@@TacticalTortoise I don't have the new codex and can't reference the rules exactly. I don't believe the rules say you can force the inactive player to declare all their rules at the same time. That would be an assumption, unless I've missed something in the core rules. I don't think there are really two things happening at the same time here. So the "inactive" player does the fall back strat, moves his models and then declares that now that they are unengaged, he will use the Warp talons' ability. I can't see how the active player would say "Oh you can't because back when you couldn't use the Warp strike ability, you had to declare that you wanted to, and then I would get to decide you use the Warp strike ability first, which you couldn't and now the fight phase is over". That does not seem grounded in the rules.

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

@@arj693Timing rules are certainly a weakness of 40k's mechanics, but I think you'd have an extremely hard time convincing someone to let you resolve an effect *after* the step in which that effect resolves has been completed 🤷‍♂️ Edit: It's probably relevant to mention that every tournament format I know either requires that all relevant effects be worked out and declared simultaneously and the order chosen by the active player (WTC does this), or gives the active player control over the order in which their use must be declared (most US tourneys work it this way). Again the rules are ambiguous on exactly how timing is meant to be resolved, but that is how most of the scene understands it afaik

@arj693 Ай бұрын

@@TacticalTortoise But I'm not. It's still the end of the fight phase. I've just finished doing one thing (the strat) and after that I am doing another thing that is only possible after I did the strat (supporting the argument I would make that they are not happening "at the same time" even though they happen in the same timing window). In my opinion it is the active player that is going to have an extremely hard time arguing that he can shut the door on the "end of fight phase"-step as described in my earlier comment. I don't think the bit about sequencing in the core rules is enough. But yeah, all this could have been made clearer in the rules.

@thetimebinder Ай бұрын

Yeah, this is going to get "Once per game"

@trentathawat6714 Ай бұрын

Seems probable, but how long will it take to institute that change? If it's not until the Balance Dataslate after the upcoming one, it means a good sixth months of this unit dominating the meta.

@TLPlants Ай бұрын

Things like this often makes me think GW doesn't actually play their game.

@dementiamaster12 Ай бұрын

As many pointed out. If a unit has been charged it will then make a pile in move, probably re engaging the talons. Also charging models in 10th must end base to base with enemy models if possible. That way, talons will probably have to kill the entire unit 90% of the time for that ability to work, or use a strat to move away

@kylenewnam8231 Ай бұрын

A unit that had been charged, but is not currently in engagement range, does not get to activate and so it does not get to pile in.

@Swordsmansmith87 Ай бұрын

@@kylenewnam8231so you just pull the models from the back and if they fail to kill the whole unit you're piling in.

@mischa3726 Ай бұрын

That's why in the video, he suggests charging a wounded model so the opponent doesn't get a choice and has to take that one model away first. It works, but it's pretty niche. I think the talons works way better if you expect to actually whipe the unit you are charging though

@msquared016 Ай бұрын

What is that online simulator?

@JohnBryett-wt9uj Ай бұрын

Table top sim

@TacticalTortoise Ай бұрын

Https://tts40k.com

@ToddGrindle Ай бұрын

So death guard seem fairly decent against them? All troops in rhinos... PBCs picking those talon squads off. Just thoughts... Not sure.

@trentathawat6714 Ай бұрын

Overwatching with all of their Torrent weapons makes Death Guard more resistant to this unit than other factions as well.

@real-lomas-chenko Ай бұрын

What's the logic of them having an invun? Seems arbitrary

@Nikusarusan Ай бұрын

pretty sure the jumppack intercessors also have one, so jumppacks propably EDIT: i was wrong, JPAI dont have an invuln so my guess is a good as yours

@Congojackk Ай бұрын

Theyre demons…

@lohikaarmeherra-1753 Ай бұрын

Warp talons have passed the treshold into demonhood.

@gavinziozios1431 Ай бұрын

They're basically flying possessed, that's why

@revandriel9233 Ай бұрын

DAEMON SAVE!!!!! They've had it for a few editions now.

@chromehunter2074 Ай бұрын

Fight first only works in the subsequent fight phase, not after a charge. Charging unit always fights first.

@Swordsmansmith87 Ай бұрын

Incorrect. If you charge a unit that fights first ie for example a world eaters MoE with bezerkers. Moe's unit fights first before the unit that charged them.

@mischa3726 Ай бұрын

The actual rules are a bit more nuanced. Having fights first while getting charged does give you the opportunity to fight before the charging unit, because in your turn during both 'fights first phase' and 'normal fight phase' your opponent gets to activate a unit first. In the fights first phase this is specifically relevant if your opponent has a unit with the fights first abillity since he gets to activate first. Most of the time he will not have any of the units meaning your units with fight first will just fight one after the other (everything that charged get the fights first abillity for that turn) Fights first does not mean you get to always fight first. It just means that unit get to be activated in the fights first phase which works with the same activation rules as the normal fight phase

@chromehunter2074 Ай бұрын

@@mischa3726 when you read the rule, in the core rules, the unit that charges gets the fight first ability. It does get complicated when there are multiple units in the fight phase that are still eligible to fight. I mean, so yes, there can be units that can fight first after the charge phase just not those units that were charged. Im not sure if my comment was clear on that or not. However, your opponent will always get the fight first ability in your turn regardless unless you have units that have the fight first ability. It hasn't really changed since 8th. I was just trying to keep it simplified as a single unit charging a single unit.

@mischa3726 Ай бұрын

@@chromehunter2074 but thats wrong I think. if you have a unit that has fights first abillity and your opponent charges (in his turn) it BOTH units have the fights first abillity that round. however in the fights first phase since it is your opponents turn YOU get to choose the first unit for activation which can only be a unit with fights first therefore you can attack frist even though your opponent charged. The same way your opponent gets to activate a unit first in ongoing combat

@chromehunter2074 Ай бұрын

@@mischa3726 you could be right? I want you to know im not arguing with you im just taking what the rules say and explaining how we play the game. I just want to make that clear before so there's no hostility lol. According to how the core rules are worded any units that charged that turn get the fights first ability. It also says that for other rules that any unit that has similar rules that whose ever turn it is goes first. So, I, we have always played it as if a unit charged they get to activate and do their attacks first, then it's the opponents turn to activate and do their attacks. Once all units that have the fight first ability have fought it goes back to the opponent being able to activate and fight first alternating back and forth. This is how I have played every game in 10th. I could very well be misinterpretating the rules. Im not at all saying I or my opponents haven't been playing 10th completely wrong this whole time, but this is how we resolve the fight phase. So, let's say turn 2 was the charges. Turn 3 would activate all the fight first units then alternating between the remaining. Always have had the units that charged, get to do their attacks first. Never had a single disagreement with any of my opponents when we resolve the fight phase this way. There could be a whole lot of people playing 10th wrong lol.