Why was it wrong for David to take a census?

[@jeffreychase3287]

This was a great teaching. I also didn't realize why a census was bad I God's eyes. Thank you for clarifying with scripture.

[@feliciavale4279]

Indeed, I feel the same, thank you for this teaching.

[@Sandman1255]

And you still dont if you listened to this

[@yothomasbarnes]

Just want to say what a blessing this video was to me, thanks a lot.

[@timotheusmiller]

You're very welcome!

[@miguelpincos]

I end up praying after listening to this. Thanks for the the clarification. It has to do more with Identity and sense of Belonging.

[@timotheusmiller]

Thanks for the encouragement! Speaking and listening to God is our oxygen.

[@AKGUS]

God is good! I stumbled on this video after wrestling with the same passages a few days ago.

[@cherylbaker3353]

Oh I love what you said you’ve met the kindest person the strongest and the kindest person you’ve ever met that was so beautiful!!

[@timotheusmiller]

It's so rare to see power and kindness, but the Lord exemplifies it! (Thanks for the encouraging words!)

[@nicklang88]

This video has the most views because you dive deep into a tough biblical topic, and use the Bible to interpret the Bible. We need more content that explains what the Bible is trying to say instead of trying to figure out how each verse applies to us - that will come naturally with the former. I always thought this had something to do with God saying that the Israelites would be more innumerable than the sand on the seashore, and that David was challenging that. This is a better explanation, and better accounts for the other census that was taken. Great work.

[@timotheusmiller]

Thanks so much for the thorough comment Nick. And good eye! The principle of "interpret the difficult passages by the numerous and plain ones" is something I appreciate. I preach and teach at our church in long form content on the podcast but when I make videos I typically aim for very short. So I'm intrigued at this rather long one being well received. Anyway, thanks again for the comment, Nick!

[@dantessmith7334]

I agree with your thesis at 4:30 in the video. Been studying this issue for years and you made it make sense. God Blessed you with Wisdom in these matters. Continue on your journey.

[@timotheusmiller]

Thank you! May you enjoy the sweet Presence of Jesus in every endeavor.

[@anonymousforcommentslol6075]

i LOVE the way you talk about this! you seem so gentle and i LOVE the way you talk about God

[@timotheusmiller]

Thanks very much!

[@smashingartful]

Very cool, thanks for sharing!

[@dfwelitelogisticsllc]

Great teaching thank you for sharing

[@hillpraise]

Thanks for the video, I am appreciative that you point out that David knew the character of God, that he is merciful. When David cried out to God. God recalled the angel, could you imagine what that looked like, wow! 1 Chronicles 21:16 AMP [16] Then David raised his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, covered in sackcloth, fell on their faces. I know that all the mysteries of God we will never fully understand but yet my heart trust him completely .

[@bettymofokeng3404]

Wow very profound,... the kindest God I have ever met🛐

[@timotheusmiller]

He really is the kindest Person I've ever known. And the strongest. And that combination is just beautiful!

[@Kcoley-ny7lq]

U got a subscriber out of me boss your very wise and this was a amazing teaching

[@bonniemoerdyk9809]

I remember discussing this w/my dad, his reply wasn't quite as deep as yours...so thank you!!

[@timotheusmiller]

Wow thank you!

[@DonieleEdwards]

First time viewer and already subscribed. Thank you for your teaching on this often troubling and neglected passage. It was such a great breakdown 👏🏽👏🏽

[@timotheusmiller]

I really appreciate the encouragement!

[@cherylbaker3353]

Great video thank you so much

[@Zappacuda]

Hey man, great video! Wonderful discussion. PS. Love the sponge bob decor, keep it up!

[@timotheusmiller]

Hey thanks for noticing! I've repainted my office since then but there is even MORE SpongeBob now. :)

[@HershelPeppers]

Goodness, great teaching. Thanks, Brother.

[@MotorGong]

I am so happy I found this video. I followed this teaching so well (because of your style) I wish you'd do more :) Thank You so much for sharing!

[@timotheusmiller]

Thanks so much! Lately I've just been recording audio for the podcast because video seems to take so me a lot longer. castbox.fm/app/castbox/player/id1966675

[@MotorGong]

@@timotheusmiller Thank You for the link to the podcast, I look forward to listening to it soon! ♥

[@MotorGong]

@@timotheusmiller I listened to the 720 or 220 podcast of yours recently, and absolutely loved it. It is obvious to me that the Christians you teach are Blessed to have you, as I am able to hear the occasional polite verbal engagements. I look forward to listening to more, and my only regret is that I don't live closer to see you in person. :)

[@timotheusmiller]

@@MotorGong Wow! Thanks for the kind words! The church is really tiny. Like 50-65 people. But it's also GREAT!

[@MotorGong]

@@timotheusmiller For someone as myself who has just recently FULLY found my way to Jesus Christ, the size of your church sounds excellent....it seems like the larger churchs can lack that personal connection and I hope to discover a smaller sized church....my assumptions could be absolutely incorrect though lol. I look forward to commenting on your other podcasts soon, I've been reading and studying the Bible in an attempt to catch up with the rest of the wonderful believers. God bless you good sir!

[@chessversarius2253]

I clicked on the video because I was asked the same question recently, and because of your channel name :) This was very good, thank you!

[@timotheusmiller]

Oh thanks! Yeah back in the day I had a blog and my friend said, "You only write about guitars and theology so call it that." I've kind of just stuck with that ever since...

[@tanakjesuspictures7446]

Good insights

[@karlforjesus]

Totally awesome understanding 😮my brother

[@navigodelaney119]

Excellent teaching.

[@timotheusmiller]

Thank you!

[@theframepodcast]

This was wonderful! Excellent answer for a question I didn’t know I had. Thank you.

[@timotheusmiller]

Wow, thanks!

[@rickl4159]

Your explanation of the juxtaposition of Genesis 11 and Genesis 12 was beautiful. Praise God. In one hand we have humanism and in the other we have God's glory. We all have to choose if we want to be god or if we want to recognize Him as God. Wow, thank you.

[@timotheusmiller]

Yes, I'm still captured by that theme! Identity and hopes built on tangible success through human mastery vs identity and hope found in the invisible God of the impossible promise.

[@ryancampbell3513]

Awesome. Good job.

[@vernonmutale5495]

Wow indeed the lord God almighty is great...David knew the heart of God this is powerful may God richly bless you Amen Amen and Amen 🕊🙏🔥🇿🇲

[@timotheusmiller]

Yes, that combination of power and kindness is stunning!

[@gravityisfree]

I appreciate these thoughts. Thanks for sharing. It's been a challenging part of scripture for me.

[@timotheusmiller]

Yeah, for sure! Sometimes living with questions is more an act of faith than living with answers, but we've not always been trained that way...

[@gravityisfree]

@@timotheusmiller I agree. I think it's important for us to be intellectually honest- something I rarely find practiced. For me, the point is that we know enough and have experienced enough of God's truth to walk by faith.

[@timotheusmiller]

@@gravityisfree Part of my coming to faith was standing on the side of a mountain in Colorado watching the sunset over a valley where a stream ran and beavers had made a damn and birds were in flight and I heard a voice say, "You know I'm real." And I was VERY freaked out. Because I was not yet ready to trust the God who spoke... It was a process after that and more interactions that broke down my remaining defenses.

[@gravityisfree]

@@timotheusmiller What a moment to remember and value...Thank you for sharing that. I find the memory of these kinds of moments to be highly valuable in the darker moments that inevitably meet us in this life. You can always say, "but I know that happened, I know He was there, and I remember what I felt".

[@timotheusmiller]

@@gravityisfree Yes. We can't live on the mountaintop, but we navigate the valley by the perspective we gained there

[@KingKong-fj4dk]

This is excellent teaching. Thank you

[@BabygirlShaniLewis1998]

thank you for clearing up the David confusion for me, it really shows that the bible is one and God's commandments applies to everyone in the Old Testament, its understandable that they may forget cause they are human at the end of the day, but David felt the conviction of his action and sorted out the consequence of his action. it also show how much he truly loved God.

[@navigodelaney119]

As you were speaking, the thought of patriotism popped in my head just before you mentioned it. I have had similar thoughts about it in the last few years. We are citizens of heaven. Patriotism and nationalism sounds honorable, but it also draws one into the affairs of men, wars, politics, and all sorts of things not conducive to the mission of sharing the Gospel.

[@timotheusmiller]

I view patriotism as good and natural; I hope every person loves their country, just like I want every person to honor their parents even if their parents aren't that nice. But patriotism can sour into Nationalism where we no longer act in love. As you said, since our citizenship is in heaven, the agenda of the kingdom of God takes precedence over against any national agenda.

[@xipus08]

Blessing 🙌

[@keithloweart]

Some wonderful insights. Thank you for sharing

[@timotheusmiller]

Hey thanks Mr. Keith Lowe!

[@vickieadams6648]

I wondered about that census too. I assumed it was because God wanted David to know that if there were any battles in victory, it would be because of Him (Elohim) NOT physical strength from David.

[@timotheusmiller]

I still wonder! And I think your intuition is pretty good.

[@ShiraSpeaks]

Very nice thank you 🙏🏽

[@timotheusmiller]

thank you!

[@mdhj67]

Didn't God incite David to conduct the census? Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.” 2 Samual 24:1-2 Or was it Satan? Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.” 1 Chronicles 21:1-2 And was David punished or his people? So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel from the morning until the appointed time. And there died of the people from Dan to Beersheba 70,000 men. 2 Samual 24:16 Is this the Lord's character? He incites David (or maybe it was Satan, who knows), then murders 70,000 bystanders because David did what he was incited to do.

[@timotheusmiller]

You did an excellent job summarizing the problems.

[@darrylgrace401]

Great job 👏 thank you

[@timotheusmiller]

Thank you very much!

[@beastbotello24]

So good! Thank you so much!

[@duncescotus2342]

"You never count your money when you're sitting at the table. They'll be time enough for counting when the dealing's done." Kenny Rogers.

[@timotheusmiller]

Hey listen, if you can quote some Kenny Rogers in a biblical discussion, you're winning!

[@duncescotus2342]

@@timotheusmiller Thanks bro, but that bit of wisdom is the extent of my Kenny Roger's quotes!

[@timotheusmiller]

@@duncescotus2342 Well then throw some Johnny Cash in there and it'll work just as well if not better.

[@duncescotus2342]

@@timotheusmiller Okay, hold on, let me think. "Drive on, it don't mean nothing, it don't mean nothing, drive on." That one works for just about everything!

[@fnfn9229]

really enjoyed this explanation and the other topics u discussed. Subbed

[@timotheusmiller]

Wow, I really appreciate that, thanks

[@christianmenendez7733]

Great explanation. God bless you brotha.

[@timotheusmiller]

Glad it was helpful!

[@carrie75]

🔥 Thank you!

[@TeAmJeSuSGo]

The Lord had directly commanded that the people would only be counted if God commanded it for they belonged to the Lord himself. Also, it had to be done in a specific way. When David ordered a census that was not commanded by God, it was as if the People belonged to David and not to the Lord. The commandments that are broken making us unclean have a certain punishment, but to sin against the Lord himself earns a special kind of punishment.

[@lloydmunga4961]

Humans are not cattle

[@timotheusmiller]

Amen!

[@nadia05681]

Thank you!

[@anthonymiller6081]

Did God actually 'incite' David to number the people ??

[@timotheusmiller]

Hello there! I'll give you my two cents... That's where 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chron 21 differ on their perspective of the event. Both view it as wrong for David to take the census, but Chronicles says satan incited David to do it, while 2 Samuel expresses that God was displeased with the people corporately and "moved David against them." A difficult passage! In difficult passages I tend to appreciate the classical wisdom that says let the fewer and more obscure passages not be taken to over-ride the more numerous and plain passages. James says God tempts NO ONE to sin nor is He tempted. I'm also reminded of the interplay between Pharaoh hardening his own heart, and the Lord hardening his heart - that sounds scandalous upon first reading, but after more reflection it seems like God's hardening is about giving stubborn people over to what they're bent on, as Romans 1 says. I don't claim this resolves the tension fully, but thanks for the question and may God bless you today with peace and joy!

[@Alanvids]

In 2 Samuel 24 v1 , God told David to take the census. David added his own specification to the census, hence God's punishment

[@madreamer]

One thing I'm not seeing in the bible is that pastors are shepherds, seems to me they are sheep just as the rest. People are supposed to follow the pastor as he follows God but they aren't the shepherd.

[@timotheusmiller]

I hear you loud and clear, and you're right, there's only one Good Shepherd. Having said that, "Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;" (1 Peter 5:2) To be clear, I agree with the point you're making. They ain't "my" people. It ain't "my church." I mean, it is the church I'm a member of. But leadership is a stewardship of God's most precious possession, His blood-bought people. And that's a sobering thing to contemplate.

[@madreamer]

@@timotheusmiller copy that , I understand leadership. When He said smite the Shepard and the sheep will scatter that was the Apostles, I think too many times pastors forget that they are sheep along with the flock, even though God expects leadership to come from them.

[@kurtweiand7086]

There is more to this census then you covered here. Matter of fact you gave me a whole new perspective on it. Read 2 Samuel 24 vs.1. God was bringing judgment on lsrael and used David's own free will to get it done. Because God judged David guilty is proof of this. And the nation received God's judgment as planned.

[@timotheusmiller]

@@kurtweiand7086 That's a good point. More going on in the unseen realm of God's wisdom...

[@palbey]

I have a question,why is it that 2 Sam. 24:1 says that it was the Lord who incited David while 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that it was Satan who incites David?

[@timotheusmiller]

That is a really good question, isn't it? I probably don't have "the answer." But I have a response. It seems that sometimes in the permissive will of God, satan is allowed some leash to do things that God normally restricts or disallows. Perhaps in this sense, both passages you cited can be an accurate description of what happened. God withdrew a protective covering from David, and thus satan tempted. Just a thought. Thanks for the great question! If you have a better or different response, I'd like to hear it. I am also reminded that James is clear that God doesn't tempt anyone or cause anyone to sin so where does that fit in?

[@thereaction18]

An interesting parallel to David with Araunah is Abraham refusing to be enriched by goods he retrieved from the plunder of Sodom after tithing to Melchizedek in Gen 14. He also insisted on paying full price for Sarah's burial site in Gen 23. Somehow these all seem connected having something to do with preserving the integrity of their covenants with God. David received the anointing and Abraham was promised the land. They wanted no one but God to receive credit or have a lien or claim of interest as an encumbrance on their entitlements.

[@timotheusmiller]

Good stuff. I really love the three principles of, "I will not sacrifice to the Lord burnt offerings that cost me nothing." And "The fire falls on sacrifice." And a third: "No one is to appear before me empty-handed." I remember that some Sunday mornings. "We aren't here for us, not first and foremost. We're here for God. And am I bringing something to Him that costs me something?"

[@chapmaned24]

It's not a sin to COUNT the people. The sin is...NOT COLLECTING MONEY for those counted. See Exodus 30:11-16. God does NOT have to COMMAND David to take a census. Exodus 30 does not COMMAND Moses to take a count, either. IT states WHEN you take a census, not a command to TAKE A CENSUS. And 2 Samuel 24, God "moved" David to take a count, not God commanded David to take a count. God's anger was with Israel, not David. Satan, on the other hand, just wanted to get David into trouble SO THAT Israel would be killed! But there are DIFFERENCES between the 2 accounts. They are not the same account. For my comment here, I don't care about the count number in either case. But, below are the OTHER differences: For example: In 2 Samuel 24:13, God gave David 3 choices of punishment: *1. 7 *(SEVEN) years famine, or **2. 3 years *(YEARS) fleeing from enemies, or 3. 3 days pestilence But in 1 Chronicles 21:12 God also gave David 3 choices of punishment: *1. 3*(THREE) years famine, or **2. 3 months *(MONTHS) overtaken by enemies 3. 3 days pestilence That's a major difference, not to mention the other differences in the census, as well as the CURRENCY and amount needed for the THRESHING FLOOR in order to STOP the pestilence. Threshing Floor (Belonging to Ornan) 1 Chronicles 21:25: *600 Shekels of Gold. Threshing Floor (Belonging to Araunah) 2 Samuel 22:24: **50 shekels of Silver. My reference is the KJV, but I do know, and am aware of other versions of the Bible, such as the NIV, which makes everything the SAME account. For example...2 Samuel 24:13 shows THREE YEARS FAMINE instead of SEVEN, which would make both accounts the same...except for the currency and amount, and who the threshing floor belonged to. Those are still different, reflecting the same as the KJV. Having said all that...Numbering the people is NOT the sin. 1 John 3:4 states that sin is the transgression of the law [of Moses]. Romans 3:20 states that the law [of Moses] is the knowledge of sin. So, we have to take it back to the law of Moses in order to determine WHAT the sin actually is. Exodus 30:11-16 11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the Lord, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them. NOTE: DID YOU SEE THE WORD PLAGUE IN VERSE 12? 13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs:) an half shekel shall be the offering of the Lord. 14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord. 15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls. 16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls. Numbering the people is not the sin. Neglecting to COLLECT MONEY FROM THE PEOPLE COUNTED is the sin.

[@therealdaverice]

❤

[@garrygull8354]

How is it gad the seer. Was used to give him three choices? He was a Moabite. Forbidden to practice the mosaic law. Or enter the covenant. Yet God used him to council David apart from practicing the law?

[@timotheusmiller]

Hello Garry. Thanks for the interaction! Firstly, I was unable to find any evidence that Gad was Moabite. In fact, it seems far more likely that he was an Israelite from the Tribe of Gad. I'm no expert, but would it have been normal for a Moabite family to name their kid after one of the 12 Israelite tribes descended from Jacob? Secondly, even if he were of Moabite origin (like Ruth), it seems fairly unscriptural to assume that God could not raise him up as a prophet if he were a genuine believer/worshiper in Yahweh. God is the God of all nations and the chosen people are meant to be the means by which that truth is discovered. Genesis 12 is pretty clear - Abraham and his seed are not chosen instead of the rest, but FOR THE SAKE OF the rest. Election has a global missional intent and that intent will find its fulfillment in Jesus. But back to my first response: I think Gad the Seer was an Israelite from the tribe of Gad.

[@garrygull8354]

@@timotheusmiller I believe ken Johnson out of Olathe said he was Moabite and I think he said Nathan was not an Israelite also. I'm not sure where he got that info but he has a KZbin channel

[@garrygull8354]

@@timotheusmiller if ye be Christ's ye are Abraham's seed and hiers of promise! Isaac had nothing to do with being a child of promise. It wasn't his works his birth was miraculous in the sense God renewed Sarah's youth. Our new birth is miraculous!

[@garrygull8354]

Acc to ken gad wanted to enter the covenant. And David told him no. It was forbidden by God. He said what about Ruth she's Moabite. He said David inquired and God told him Moabite women were exempt but not the men!

[@timotheusmiller]

@@garrygull8354 That narrative comes from a later extrabiblical source, from what I gather.

[@proudhon100]

1 Chron 21 refers to how many men of the sword were there. This suggests David was thinking of a war of aggression, George W Bush style. Sad how many Christians went along with that episode of "Christian war fever" (CH Spurgeon).

[@timotheusmiller]

Interesting take. Thanks for a thoughtful comment. Peace be with you!

[@timotheusmiller]

Also -- I LOVE SPURGEON

[@proudhon100]

@@timotheusmiller Thanks for taking the time and trouble to comment. You don't have all that many subscribers but you have a very healthy number of comments.

[@grantbartley483]

Babel is not pronounced 'babble'.

[@timotheusmiller]

You're probably right.

[@grantbartley483]

@@timotheusmiller It's more like 'Baybel'. You'd have to look into the Hebrew to get the etymology, probably.

[@timotheusmiller]

@@grantbartley483 Yeah I think that's correct

[@grantbartley483]

@@timotheusmiller If I had to bet on a rather obscure challenge, I'd bet that 'Babel' and 'babble' do not have a direct etymological link. The latter seems more Anglo-Saxon to me

[@thereaction18]

Well we're never going to know how they originally pronounced it since they were all scattered and their languages confused, are we?

[@abdullahmohammady7568]

God told david to take a census