Why was Sauron Evil? - Sauron's Philosophy | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth

[@MR-ux2vu]

Maybe he was rejected from an art school in Valinor

[@_semih_]

Nice hitle r reference

[@truebigboss]

lol

[@codieomeallain6635]

Tbh Hitler’s art wasn’t bad if you look at it without thinking “fuck Hitler”

[@alistairmackintosh9412]

A good description of Melkor's motive.

[@BJETNT]

That was funny but I bet most did not get it. Maybe because most aren't old enough or don't watch enough History Channel unlike me LOL. It never ceases to amaze me how far Hitler got.

[@kragary]

Sauron would make a great personal trainer. He'd hammer you into shape whether you'd like it or not.

[@colonelautism9957]

Or a good math teacher

[@limorapp]

Hammer time

[@colonelautism9957]

@888GRM lol

[@zejzild]

Seriously, tho... it'd be a great name if anyone's planning on creating a new chain of fitness centres - SAURON FITNESS (if it hasn't already been done, that is)... tee hee ^^ Building an army worthy of Mordor one gym at a time...

[@quincyjackson7855]

Well... I always wondered why human Sauron looked like a super Chad, more like a model with piercing glowing eyes. Dude just wanted men who worked as hard as he did, lol.

[@ernestcheesy962]

I mean, if genocide is the price to pay to have this kick-ass armor...

[@cristianaligarcia]

I would, I mean I want someone to build me an army worthy of mordor.

[@jeffmorin5867]

You say this as a joke...but it betrays your true selves...

[@cristianaligarcia]

@@jeffmorin5867 shall I describe it to you? Or would you like me to find you a box?

[@jeffmorin5867]

@@cristianaligarcia The extent I expected from your lot. Not much.

[@mikeMakhno]

Armor by Hugo Boss.

[@armandowillem]

"For he was not as evil as his master Morgoth in only that he served another and not himself in the beginning of his corruption."- Tolkien describes the difference in evils of Morgoth and Sauron.

[@RendezvousWithRama]

"What Sauron wanted most of all was to create a perfect world in which everyone worked efficiently together in a very coordinated manner" - history has a thing or two to say about how this tends to end.

[@wiggawithattitude]

Utopianism can never be anything other than fantasy.

[@maxalaintwo3578]

"B-b-but that wasn't REAL *insert -ism here* "

[@Josh-mon]

@@maxalaintwo3578 what we need is the whole world to be "ism" in order for it to truly work!!!!! :O

[@informationyes]

Everyone shall be equal I just need absolute power over you to make this happen

[@GORT70]

I was thinking the same thing

[@dominicmerzib2096]

Good or evil saurons armour is easily the coolest armour I’ve seen in any movie or game

[@jamesandthemgiantcheeks2798]

I agree full heartedly

[@honeybadger1810]

Correct. He is the most threatening looking character I have ever seen.

[@garyoak317]

Agreed

[@muhammadhidayat5678]

Artorias and ringed city knight form dark soul

[@D4NOMAUS]

It reminds me of the daedric armour from skyrim

[@h0b0y0da4]

Is it weird to say sauron viewed the world as nothing more than raw material to shape into a perfect form? Like a diamond set into a golden ring for example. Or even the forging of a jewel encrusted sword. As he was after all a smith of Aulë. I'm sure sauron had a greater perspective on what can be described as raw materials in the greater world. Raw materials that only required a bit of hammering apon an anvil to become what he deemed perfect. Which could also be another example of why he chose mordor. It being a land of fire, stone, and ash. I'm sure he felt right at home as any blacksmith would.

[@anniewilson9186]

but he was himself a spirit. you might be right, and that philosophy would explain why he caused so much chaos. "sin as such does not exist, but you commit sin when you act in ways that are adulterous to your true nature and create disturbances." -said Someone once. 2020 attests to that truth, as we're both form and spirit. Sauron was pure spirit. so his disturbances were greater. we bipeds have had to combine ours and pass them down thru the ages to achieve this kind of chaos. God we could do so much better.

[@_semih_]

@Joseph Norm Don't u know English?

[@Jim-Tuner]

In the second age at the absolute peak of his power when he effectively ruled Numenor and nearly all of middle earth, the whole of his plan amounted to building a temple where morgoth was worshipped and people made human sacrifices to Morgoth along with launching a war directly against the Valar. I would say he viewed the world as morgoth did. That he was fighting a war to drive all the influence of the Valar out of middle earth by controlling and/or ruining everything. Morgoth could fight that war at the level of the literal matter of the world by driving his power into it. Sauron fought that same war with his lesser power through the rings and by corrupting others through the rings.

[@mw9688]

@@anniewilson9186 where do you get your weed?

[@siddislikesgoogle]

@Joseph Norm because it demonstrates order and will towards an end, like beauty and symmetry. The fact you can recognize complex mathematics as ethereal concepts in your mind, and don't need to touch them physically, is enough proof you are well equipped to sense the immaterial and tell order and chaos apart. We are well endowed, embrace the gift.

[@chasepittman7346]

I always saw Sauron as being similar to Light Yagami, both of them were highly intelligent people who had really good intentions which spiraled into narcissism and power hungry mania once power went to their heads.

[@jonathancampbell5231]

The difference is that Light was more moralistic and wanted to eradicate evil, while Sauron seemed to start off as more amoral and was more about Order. I would say that Light started off with slightly more noble intentions in terms of actually wanting to help people- despite what is said in the video, Sauron never really thought he was making the world a better place for people, not least because "people" didn't actually exist at the time he first fell: the Elves, let alone the Dwarves or the Men, hadn't come into being yet. Mortals with their pesky "free will" actually irritated him.

[@Jim-Tuner]

The best way to understand Sauron's goals is to look at what he did at the peak of his power in the second age when he effectively ruled Numenor and most of the world through Numenor. He built temples to Morgoth where there were human sacrifices. He encouraged Numenor to use all its resources in a war against the Valar. He had all the power at that point and there were no good intentions in what he did with it. He may have had good intentions when he originally joined with Morgoth. But by the second age, its tough to see any positive agenda in him.

[@LordMortanius]

@@Jim-Tuner To be fair, he was intentionally working to screw over Numenor.

[@errwhattheflip]

Light was far more immoral tbh. From the very beginning, Light was comtemplating on killing innocent people (like random bullies or even just anyone and everyone around him). He was never truly good. Sauron was a good person with character flaws@@jonathancampbell5231

[@jprocha1570]

I do not think Sauron was doomed from the start. Thinking this way eliminates the idea of choice. It was choice that Sauron made, and it was choice that had him change his views overtime. Sauron could have chose a different course but in spite of being a heavenly being he was not the creator and therefore not perfect. So ultimately he was corrupted by pride and hunger for power and control.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Oh yeah, it's more of a question of what could have happened to change his choices and set him back on the right path? To me it seems like the moment he refused the summons the Valar, he basically lost any chance of redemption

[@jprocha1570]

@@GeekZoneMT yes I believe with no one to keep him in check, he had no one to stop him from pursuing power.

[@_semih_]

@@jprocha1570 yes. Osse was lucky because his wife Uinen was there and stopped his corruption. But Sauron/Marion had no one around him...its kinda sad

[@sgtpaloogoo2811]

@@_semih_ though him and Morgoth can have hang out in the void i suppose.

[@Swiss_femboy]

@@sgtpaloogoo2811 Im imagining morgoth scolding sauron and telling him what he could have done better, and sauron just rolling his eyes at the old man like an edgy teen.

[@shanenolan8252]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

[@BJETNT]

I agree with you completely but how do you make a better omelette without breaking some eggs in the process. If we just got rid of the bad people like multiple offenders or child molesters rapist that kind of thing that would be a good start but where you draw the line and decide who is bad. Politics get involved on that type of thing too much. I guarantee you if we started putting a bullet in the head of the really bad with no exceptions I think a lot of people that weren't doing things that were so bad fall into line quickly. There would be exceptions but when you can go to jail for decades for selling weed for drugs with non-violent crimes I think that's crazy. Something like 81% of the people in certain jails are nonviolent drug related crime. They make the situation worse in the world and not better. I've never seen anybody come out of prison or jail for any length of time and be a better person. Anything over 15 years put a bullet in me. The reason in my mind the road to hell is paved on Good Intentions is because good intentions are not drastic enough. You have to be willing to do something extremely invasive to really make a difference. You either die being a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. 2 face said the same thing as what you just said for the most part and just said it in a different way. I actually like his methodology!!! People that get other good people killed and say oh I didn't know what they were going to do with them need to to die. The Nazi troops did exactly the same thing because they were told to so they could pass the bus and not to mention they were on drugs that took away a lot of their empathy. But you know what they still committed the crime so they needed to be killed too. But when I think of people like the ones that stood up to Pablo Escobar. You said you can have my silver or my lead!!! It does not make you a bad person to want to live. Anyway both ways don't work but Playing devil's advocate I would rather died trying to do something rather than not doing anything positive at all.

[@shanenolan8252]

@@BJETNT agreed and your examples also also there are types or reformers like the people who banned drugs and put those non violent offenders in prison and legal people or political figures who exploit loopholes well intentioned exceptions for centuries back but used today and when questioned they say it's the law

[@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal]

And the road to Tartarus is paved with stupidity and bad intentions

[@shanenolan8252]

@@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal lol

[@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal]

@@shanenolan8252 you say that now but when you try to sacrifice a god to itself you'll be singing a different tune that being a of a wolf howl

[@redjirachi1]

Morgoth: Divine Comedy Satan Sauron: Paradise Lost Satan

[@RepublicConstitution]

Excellent

[@brucejedilee5290]

Kinda

[@v.9964]

This is a perfect example

[@cornycontent1915]

Mm, neat comparison

[@tevildo7718]

I do wonder if during the First Age Morgoth the being who invented lying and taught Sauron the art of deception if he tricked Sauron into believing that Morgoth's goals were the same or compatible with Sauron's.

[@craigdurso3005]

Very clever thought , that is quite possible in all seriousness

[@Diogolindir]

I think its kinda nice how Sauron was always interested in jewelry 💚

[@AnshuSingh-oq9go]

@@Diogolindir ;)

[@yourstruly4817]

Because love is a burning thing and it makes for a firery ring. Being bound by wild desire didn't help his reputation either.

[@GeekZoneMT]

It burns burns burns, this ring of fire!

[@mixererunio1757]

The ring of fire... Tutututu tutu tutu tutu tuuuu

[@TheGreatDearLeaderJimPickens]

More like Bore Ragnarok!

[@Lee_Lee1776]

This is my favorite comment ever. Johnny Sauron.

[@arthurdent6828]

@@Lee_Lee1776 The TRUE man in black...

[@blakehillman6494]

"No one person should have absolute power." I love the lessons you draw from Tolkien's works. Keep up the great work on these videos!

[@159tony]

Sauron is a good being that was blind to his own short comings and thus the results of his actions worked counter to his goals.. had he distanced himself, tempered his patience and kept at it.. he would be more like gandalf.

[@kanrup5199]

Gandalf? Gandalf... ... oooooooooooooooooooooh Gandalf! I remember!...the pointy one...

[@deanostanley8530]

Sauron has one of the most interesting arcs in all middle earth. Do you have a video on Sauron in the first age? Maybe not enough material.

[@GeekZoneMT]

I'm working on covering Sauron's history soon, though each 'age' will probably have it's own video because otherwise it would be way too long :)

[@deanostanley8530]

@@GeekZoneMT look forward to it

[@jenniferleeswanson8140]

@@GeekZoneMT I love long videos!!! I watch these when I work out or walk. It’s nice to have long ones not just clicking for new ones 😁

[@georgedunn320]

I'm having trouble accepting the notion that Morgoth is an admirer of "Chaos." While he does try to corrupt the Music, it's not in an attempt to abolish it, but to dominate it. Similarly, he doesn't wish to destroy the silmarils, but to possess them. He does destroy the Trees, but probably because they're not portable, in accordance with the Villians' Prime Directive, "if I can't have it..."

[@carcerharlson9767]

Loved the use of Gehrman, The First Hunter's theme in this video.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks man, that theme really left an impression on me while playing through the game!

[@austinr3554]

What's the track that's at the 3 minute mark?

[@carcerharlson9767]

@@GeekZoneMT You might be interested in the soundtracks of From's older games. I highly recommend the OS from their King's Field series. King's Field IV's *Mansion of the Howling Winds* and *Dark Reality* tracks are outstanding.

[@furryferret8514]

It's one of the dwarven themes from the battle for middle earth II game

[@bigbadseed7665]

Perhaps Sauron misunderstood Morgoth's goal. Perhaps he saw the vast armies serving Morgoth and assumed that Morgoth's goal was to create a new world order in which everyone served him. This explained why Sauron would want to follow Morgoth, since he probably thought he could help Morgoth shape this new order into Sauron's own vision of a perfect world.

[@jonathancampbell5231]

That actually WAS Morgoths' goal, at least in the beginning. It's just that he got more and more nihilistic and destructive over time as his failures mounted and his power weakened. Sauron actually wasn't there for his master in the end, as he was in hiding from him after failing an important mission, which is how Sauron escaped justice after the final defeat of Morgoth and his forces by the Host of the Valar in the first place.

[@tevildo7718]

It is also possible that maybe just maybe the guy who invented lying and taught Sauron how to lie might have lied to Sauron about the full extent of his own nihilism and deceived Sauron into genuinely believing that Morgoth had the same goals or at least compatible goals to Sauron.

[@_semih_]

@@jonathancampbell5231 "he was hiding from him" where is this from? Stop bullshitting! He was Morgoth's most trusted right hand man and Tolkien states that Sauron was 'extremly' loyal to his Master. Of course Sauron was there and fighting for his master at the end of the First age. He was commanding Morgoth's armies during the war of wrath. As it said in the Silmarillion Sauron was Morgoth's greatest servant and his chief lieutenant above other Lieutenants (Gothmog and Glaurung) There is a lack of Information about War of wrath that's why Tolkien didn't mentioned Sauron during the war but the end. It does NOT mean he was 'hiding' somewhere lol

[@jonathancampbell5231]

@@_semih_ I read it somewhere. On further study it appears to be more of a fan theory (though one shared by a few people) to account for him surviving the War of Wrath while Morgoth and his other generals were defeated; that, since the last record of him in The Silmarillion is being defeated by Huan and Luthien and losing the Isle of Tor Sirion in the process, that he might have been hiding from his master out of embarrassment and fear of punishment following his failure. But, you're right- it isn't in the text itself. My mistake.

[@_semih_]

@@jonathancampbell5231 I know that. It was a fanmade "lore" video. But Its not true and impossible in the Legendarium. As I said in my previous comment, Tolkien states that Sauron was extremely loyal to Morgoth while Morgoth trusted in him more than his other servants. They were loyal to each other as Master and apprentice... Saying 'Sauron was hiding from Morgoth' is the same thing saying 'Eonwe betrayed Manwe' 🤦🏻‍♂️ Also if you were Sauron and wanted to betray your master, why would you go and settle into Taur-nu-fuin? That place is almost the front side of Angband, too near to Morgoth's door... If Sauron really wanted to betray and 'hide', he would go to far East or south, not front side of his master's fortress

[@TheVictorLoyiso]

Sauron: “For The Greater Good” Grindewald : “For The Greater Good” Thanos: “For The Greater Good” Ra's al Ghul: “For The Greater Good” I think we’ve just about had enough of the greater good thanks! 😅

[@badgasaurus4211]

Frozone: “For The Greater Good”

[@xenochrist15]

Dr. Fauci - "For the Greater Good"

[@niranjs2739]

Morgoth: " For The Greater Bad"

[@xenochrist15]

Joe Biden: "Forgot what's good"

[@danielecogotti8394]

@@xenochrist15 No politics thanks

[@TetsuShima]

Morgoth after being defeated: "You fools! My beloved Sauron will end what I couldn't finish!" Sauron: *Gets defeated by a deformed hobbit* Morgoth: "Last time I trust in a scholar"

[@GeekZoneMT]

Don't disrespect Hobbits man :'(

[@TetsuShima]

@@GeekZoneMT Their feets creeped me out when I was little

[@GeekZoneMT]

Ok that's a valid point to be fair!

[@_semih_]

@@TetsuShima He was NOT defeated by any Hobbit. Technically Hobbits were failed. Lol According to Tolkien, it was Illuvatars himself who caused gollum to fell into the lava with the ring

[@mrserbia2769]

@@_semih_ gollum was the one to destroy it as it was hinted in both the movies, as gandalf said to bilbo you must not know how to kill but how to spare a soule, so gollum was the chosen one the one who was corrupted by the precious, i dont like Gollum he friked me out.

[@turkeybeard2010]

There is only one lord of the ring, and he does not share power.

[@lillith3159]

Morgoth: Who needs a ring when you have a hammer?

[@lillith3159]

@DoomedGenX Morgoth: grrrrrmmffff MELKOR SMAAAASH!!!

[@samwrai]

But he should. Delegate power is part of a good administration.

[@eldiablo786]

@@samwrai not when it comes to the One Ring

[@eluilus4017]

He did. God's enemies devil demons all their lies plans deeds be binded failed punished destroyed in the name of Jesus Christ!

[@nfragala]

I think that it's important to remember that during the music of the Ainur, Morgoroth was attempting to follow in the footsteps of his father (Iluvatar) by creating equal and opposing music. When Ilu ended the music and scorned Morgoroth, he felt remorse not anger. It was this shame that would later calcify into Morgoroth's desire to rule all living things, but the core of that desire was shame- not evil. Much like a bit of sand between the membrane of an oyster that later becomes a pearl, Morgoroth's hatred stems from a nugget of shame; not evil. After the music has ceased Ilu states that all Morgoroth's attempts to overcome the theme of Ilu only served to complete ilu's purpose. Something like: "Even as the cold and bitter winter will freeze life giving water, it will fall from the sky and eventually bring respite to the arid lands, bringing forth life where there was none. So it is in the shame he feels, not his own evil desire, that all he does is actually in the service of Ilu that Morgoroth yearns for dominance. To be as is father is; not to oppose him. But that's the flaw of Morgoroth. In his own mind Ilu is the master of the universe; not simply the creator. But as all whom seek dominance learn (one way or another) it is in creation where the true power lies, not dominance.

[@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal]

1:58 I can definitely see that in reality I work as a 3d printing service which is basically modern craftsmanship and there is definitely a perfectionist aspect especially when I have to make my own models to print I don't think I'll ever turn into a evil person but I definitely see how that is a logical pathway to evil

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah! I especially with the eagerness to complete our creations, which can lead to the end justifying the means!

[@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal]

@@GeekZoneMT I mean yeah especially since some prints can take multiple days and as such I'll need to make more supports and a bigger raft so that it doesn't fall apart half way through as such wasting time and filament which is always in desperate need but the more I add the longer it takes and as such the other orders will be delayed this is kinda like setting up roads and trains incase theirs a breakdown there needs to be an alternative path to prevent anarchy

[@eds1942]

@@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal Or run out of filament 16 hours in shortly after you decided to get some rest.

[@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal]

@@eds1942 has been known to happen though I'm quite good at estimating

[@eds1942]

@@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal My slicer program tells me how much I need, but I’m a noob. Imagine Sauron with a 3D printer. I should try to replicate the Dwarfish rings at 30% infill this time.

[@HaragothNAR]

Been binging these videos over the last week or two. I hadn't read The Silmarillion in a long time, I had forgotten just how deep the lore and messages are in the world of Middle Earth.

[@GeekZoneMT]

What do you guys think about Sauron's philosophy? Was he doomed from the start or could he have salvaged his plans somehow by choosing a different course of actions? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome! I'd also like to give a quick shout out to ThePhilosophersGames (kzbin.info), he's a really awesome LOTR youtuber and he was kind enough to discuss certain parts of this topic while I prepared my research!

[@sebulller]

yeeaaah when speaking about so many subjeckts as you do. could you make them longer and actually talk about them insted of skipping them?

[@yourstruly4817]

Well, Gandalf was also a Maia, but other than Sauron, he elected the way of pain.

[@GeekZoneMT]

what exactly was skipped Sebastian? :)

[@michaelsavage7884]

Perfect video to summarize Sauron. But I wonder if after Sauron fell his black shadow cloud over Mordor was his soul going to the Void? Do u think Morgoth saw Saurons fall from the Void and Sauron went back to him after the destruction of the one ring?

[@sebulller]

@@GeekZoneMT well the diktator part and such. and so on and video for an another day hitn hint hint poke poke. They are very good but in my mind to short. Longer versions please!

[@Voyagerthe2nd]

But at least Sauron created thousands of jobs and was the best economic manager in Middle Earth

[@adamboyle3331]

All orcs were guaranteed by law one liter of mud water daily. Mud water is a basic human right.

[@_semih_]

@@adamboyle3331 orc right*

[@hobbitassassin1]

Aww hes a teddy bear at heart really he just needs a big hug and someone to talk to

[@quantumratio4311]

lolsen

[@RaptorJesus]

"This is why in his mind, he didn't believe anyone could refuse the power of the One Ring, let alone destroy it". I mean, he was half right. No one could destroy the Ring.

[@razorfett147]

"Some of the worst things IMAGINABLE have been done with the best of intentions " Alan Grant

[@Nindrhu]

The other lesson of Sauron: the world is not relying on any one person, or even organization, to save it. This is where that dangerous "for the greater good" mentality comes from in the first place.

[@kurtjohnston8370]

Your parroting the typical modern attitude of Liberalism. Shouldn't the outcome of an action be considered as to whether it is moral or not? If the ends don't justify the means, why should the means justify the ends?

[@waylander7777]

@@kurtjohnston8370 Chicken egg dilemmas quite often are distractions from actual causal origins and the questions that desperately need to be asked. What precisely is this Greater good to be decided on? Who is qualified/justified to decide on both defining and acting in the name of this greater good? Is there only one or many greater goods or even any good at all? Does context matter in deciding what is good? How long should the greater good take? Is coercion ever justified? ETC. Waaay before we are argue about the dilemma and is results, we need to be dissecting its base assumptions and flensing clear its epistemological foundations.

[@kurtjohnston8370]

@@waylander7777 LOTR lore has Eru Illuvatar, there exists Moral Objectivism at the Ontological level. Real world, Phenomenologically speaking every person has belief systems about Morality of an action and outcome, it is just where they order/privilege that and so Absolutism v Consequentialism is just a false dichotomy.

[@waylander7777]

@@kurtjohnston8370 Sounds like an appeal to authority to me and that's somewhat of a logical fallacy. Any moral framework has to rest on the strength of its own internal structure rather than simply the omniscience of the progenitor. A false dichotomy being somewhat more relevant if absolutism vs Consequentialism were what is being posited. (by myself). I am making a more existentialist point driven by causality as the modus operandi. This can occur within most if not any possible scenario including LOTR.

[@Swiss_femboy]

@@waylander7777 This is quite old but. The greater good is the most positive outcome for the most people or „beings“ in the world, it’s determined by logic and comes from analyzing the state of the world without the influence of Morals, doing what has to be done and not what is right or good. Life is chaotic, and that is why pure order always ends up as tyranny, because to keep living beings in cheek, you have to make them go against their primal nature. There is a difference between a good force and a simply positive force from a viewpoint without morals. But pure Order will always eradicate intelligent life, because intelligent sentient life is always the most chaotic. Which is why tyrants mostly surround themselves with the greedy and dull, who can be steered easily.

[@smithy3211]

Bro, im speechless , this is your the BEST video so far. While others just covering facts from the books about Sauron, you created the whole philosophy. This was your top tier work so far. Well done.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Cheers man, but all of this info is from the books :)

[@smithy3211]

@@GeekZoneMT I know, but you covered it very well.

[@Sofus.]

It can be absolutely wonderful when powerful people say "I do not know"

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah, and very rare! :p

[@Dunarcarn]

We as humans hate the idea of not knowing, because it's a sign of being humble. And we, as prideful beings, wish to be seen as wise, and so become full of pride. I forget which of the Greek philosophers said it but the quote goes like " And the Oracle said that I was the widest of all the Greeks, but I said that I alone know nothing"

[@incontinentiabuttocks7115]

I've read that the more you know with the more confidence you can admit that you do not know something.

[@antoniofilippocaccaviello6699]

@@Dunarcarn he was Socrates.

[@FatPankakes101]

I really hope the Amazon show dives deeply into Sauron’s motivations and character. There’s so much they can do there.

[@craigdurso3005]

Nope , they’ll screw it up just like Star Wars

[@allenwilhelm7799]

It will. Sauron will be a white supremacist driven by his hatred of the LGBTQ+ and trans POC of Middle Earth. Enjoy!

[@JT-zw4df]

@@allenwilhelm7799 yeah really though.

[@kanrup5199]

'I really hope the Amazon show dives deeply into lotr' ... oh you poor (dumb) soul...

[@georgechapman9688]

I hope the amazon show gets cast back into the fire chasm from whence it came

[@likac92009]

It's very interesting how in Tolkien's legendarium the ones who want to create something on their own, creatures with imagination and talent to do so, always follow the path of no return. Apart from Sauron and what you said in the video, Melkor started that way during the music of Ainur, Feanor was able to use the knowledge of Aule and raise it to another level by creating Palantirs and Silmarills, also Saruman who invented explosive and war machines in Isengard...and yes, all connected not to Melkor directly, but to Aule. Even Balrogs were Aule's Maiar, if I remember well. Aule himself radiated that energy it seems, after all he created Dwarfs without Eru's knowledge, right?

[@inspektorradisha]

Except for Feanor was.not.evil and he and his sons despised and fought Morgoth, and his grandson fought Sauron.

[@likac92009]

@@inspektorradisha I never said he was, I just said he was treated like all other creators: once you try to be an independent creator, you are being punished. Like being a creator is a foul word...speaking of Celebrimbor, I could include him actually! Isn't it funny how he, the greatest smith of Middle Earth, accepts Sauron's help while Gil-galad, Elrond and Galadriel refused his help? Again Tolkien tries to tell us something about people who are seeking knowledge and self improvement?

[@borealsullivan5486]

@@likac92009 He was a catholic after all. He was conditioned to believe from a young age that seeking knowledge and to desire progress is an inherently selfish, corrupt aspiration. So no wonder.

[@ezride445]

Yeah but Aule never wanted to dominate and control his creations. It’s the act of creation but wanting to control them. Aule created the Dwarves because he wanted to created, not control.

[@cerberus6654]

This has to be the best of you videos. Incredibly analytical, emotive and deeply, psychologically prescient. Brilliant work!

[@ldx8492]

Thoroughly brilliant all along, very very nice video Karl!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Awesome, thanks Andrea! I'm glad you enjoyed it mate!

[@ldx8492]

@@GeekZoneMT No thank you for this content, I am eager to discover everything concerning the Philosophy of the Legendarium, and even more if said content is done by you!

[@leonscheffler]

This is by far my favourite video of yours so far and I hope to see more Sauron related content in the future. In my opinion, he is definitely one of the most fascinating characters ever created

[@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal]

I find it likely that morgoth didn't actually want to kill everything because the silmarion is written from the perspective of the elves which would be very hostile and a bias so it is entirely possible that he and sauron had the same philosophy

[@GeekZoneMT]

In the book Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien actually says that Morgoth would never have been happy until he destroyed the entirety of Arda (including the Orcs!). This is why at the end of the day his goal was pointless, because no matter what he did, he could never completely eradicate it, the most he could do was turn it into a mass of a chaos.

[@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal]

@@GeekZoneMT ah I see

[@jonathancampbell5231]

Morgoth wanted the power to create something from nothing, which only Eru was able to do, and everything Morgoth made was ultimately an imitation. The fraudulence of what he was doing, along with growing anger from losing to the Valar time and again and growing weakness, madness and fear from losing his power over time (since in order to bring life to his creations he had to actually impart his essence into them, and he wasn't able to replenish this while being at odds with Eru), caused him to become more spiteful and hateful towards everything in existence, reduced to such petty acts of villainy as stealing the Silmarils (even though they actually burned him the whole time they were in his possession) simply because they were shiny and pretty. In a way, Morgoth is more like Hitler than Sauron ever was- he was a frustrated artist, driven by envy, hatred and bitterness at his own failures. I think it's less that Morgoth consciously wanted to destroy everything, just that this is the path he was headed down, while Sauron would have simply tried to control everything. In fact Tolkien didn't say that Morgoth wouldn't be happy until he destroyed everything, but that he would be driven to destroy everything and he wouldn't be happy even then- if he reduced everything to dust, he would still hate the dust.

[@anatoldenevers237]

Jonathan Campbell my understanding of Morgoth is that he first wanted to rule everything, and make his own world(which I'm sure would have been a living hell because Morgoth is Pure Evil), but when he realized he could not, he decided to annihilate all of existence out of sheer spite, he hated everything that was not his. IMO Morgoth is one of the most evil characters ever, second to AM.

[@ajmerthethy6724]

@@jonathancampbell5231 My god. What an overtly nihilistic person. It’s kind of unrealistic.

[@dremora10]

Great video as always dude - Love hearing Dark Elf music!

[@sayagarapan1686]

Brilliant. Lots of great insights and a grounded perspective on the character and purpose of Sauron. Well done.

[@KeppyKep]

This may be one of your best videos yet. Really interesting topic and very well-explained

[@csabascs5913]

Hi, Karl! I’m a big fan of your videos, but i think that this time you’re wrong when you say that the goals of Sauron and Melkor were in complete contradiction. I disagree with your statement that Melkor was an agent of chaos whose main goal was to destroy everything. That was not Melkor but Ungoliant. Melkor finally ended up somewhere there as well, but orginally, he was not like that at all! Just think about it! Originally he was the greatest of the Valar who had the highest level of creativity and the greatest motivation for creation, for the realization of his ideas! That’s why he was looking for the Eternal Flame in the primordial Darkness. Because he wanted to build, to create, not to destroy. That’s why he started to weave his own tunes into the Great Music during the original cration of the world, causing a disharmony. Because he wanted to realize his thoughts, his ideas. He only turned evil and destructive when he was denied the possibility to create! So he started to hate, to feel resentment for Iluvatar and his creations, because it was him who didn’t let him create, who didn’t let him put his own ideas into the creation of the world, but suppressed them instead. And imho it’s more Iluvatar’s fault than Melkor’s own fault that he’s become evil and destructive. Because Iluvatar acted like bad parents do! He didn’t allow his child, Melkor, to realize his potential and become independent, but tried to beat him into complete submission instead! He didn’t support Melkor’s childish attempts at creating things (that he inherited from Iluvatar itself) and make a place for his creations in the Big Creation, but punished him for even trying to create on his own! He acted like a father that is a painter beating the shit out of his child for playing with his paints and canvas... But even after that, Melkor only wanted to rule the world first, to squeeze the rulership out of the hands of the other Valar, so that he can impose his own order on it - again in order to be able to realize his ideas! Only when the other Valar proved to be stronger, having defeated him, imprisoned him and humiliated him again and again, he became completely destructive and became Morgoth, the enemy of the world. But considering how his father, brothers and sisters always treated him, I cannot really blame him for that. And considering the above, I think that there is no big difference between the goals, motivations and fates of Melkor, Sauron and Saruman. Originally all of them wanted to create, to realize their own ideas, and to impose their own order on the world, and all of them turned evil only when they were denied the opportunity to actually do so.

[@titakaty53]

"Originally all of them wanted to create, to realize their own ideas, and to impose their own order on the world, and all of them turned evil only when they were denied the opportunity to actually do so." And rightfully so...They have proved themselves unworthy of such talent. They were awful beings with apathy for everyone who lived in Arda and they destroyed the trust people had in each other.

[@csabascs5913]

@@titakaty53 You mean all the Valar? To some degree I agree. Except Ulmo I guess.

[@titakaty53]

@@csabascs5913 No. I meant Sauron Morgoth and Saruman. The Valar followed Eru's orders.

[@csabascs5913]

@@titakaty53 I disagree then. I think that the other Valar didn’t stand on a much higher moral ground either. They were just more social, but not more moral. They were like high school bullies who bullied the strange lonely guy until he had enough and killed everyone with a shotgun.

[@kavalier8778]

Very good video. Sauron is such a much better antagonist than most. Great motivation.

[@joonaskekoni2867]

Sauron broke down, not only by power, but by spirit, when Isildur cut his ring. It contained to big part of his soul. From that time on, he was newer able to be use the indirect methods of Annatar, but only pure military power. He did not have joint military headquaters, but managed everything by himself. This is why he failed to understand the possibity of destruction of his ring. The Sauron of 2nd age would not have been fooled so easilly.

[@margaritamarin7526]

@GeekZone I'm so glad you decided to make this video, and I wish I had discovered it sooner! (I've watched your Saruman video as well!) The layers to Tolkien's villains is one of my favorite topics to discuss with people. Did you ever make that second follow-up video about why Sauron followed Morgoth? I think you're right in that it was a little bit of the case that Sauron saw what he wanted to see in Morgoth because Melkor was a fantastic deceiver, but despite their seemingly divergent goals there is more compatibility between them than one would think at first. Order and chaos have many interesting connections in the same way good and evil do. This is my take on the subject: Unlike Ungoliant, Morgoth preferred to corrupt things rather than destroy or consume them outright, but he was also not obsessed with order and acquiring more power like Sauron: Morgoth primary goal was to corrupt everything he possibly could to spite Eru and express himself: prideful and chaotically evil, but willful and greedy, and thus not completely incompatible with Sauron: Morgoth was predictable in his selfishness. Melkor could be viewed as an evil artist in a way, frustrated by his inability to create on his own, and both envious and lacking respect towards the works of others; Tolkien said that's why Morgoth's primary enemies amongst the free peoples were the Elves, because they too cared more for beauty and self-expression than for power. If we think of Morgoth and Sauron as an artist and a craftsman respectively, their alliance makes a lot of sense. I don't remember if this is the exact quote, but in 'Beren and Lúthien', one of Christopher Tolkien's compendiums of J.R.R. Tolkien's unpublished works, the Orcs under Sauron's command but working for Morgoth shout "Down with law!"; so that and Tolkien's statement that Sauron admired Melkor's ability to use power to enforce his will provide clues: There is a difference between law, as in fixed rules and legal or moral authority, and order. So this may be the key reason why Sauron sided with Melkor: Sauron desired perfect order, but he saw the laws of the Valar and by extension Eru as limiting the possibility to create more order because there were rules (i.e. divine laws) that got in the way of enforcing his perfect vision upon things. As Mairon, Sauron did not think he could achieve his aims if he had to continue to work with the other Maiar or the Valar, or if he could it would take too long. Whereas without Eru's and the Valar's laws, Sauron, in serving Morgoth, could ENFORCE order: make things the way Sauron wanted them to be by using knowledge, power, and violence to make Morgoth's will the only thing that mattered. But after Morgoth's defeat, Sauron came to see that Morgoth's lawless order did not succeed in the long term: Given Morgoth's priorities Morgoth gradually gave away his power to corrupt the world, making him eventually too weak to resist his enemies, and after the War of Wrath all Morgoth's destruction and evil became pointless in Sauron's eyes because it did not produce lasting order. Sauron then starts to see the order of Morgoth (absence of law) and the Valar (Eru's law) as BOTH fundamentally flawed and thus he sought his own way. From then on, Sauron hypocritically used the memory of his master to espouse the "freedom" (i.e. lawless, selfish evil) that Morgoth championed to gain followers, including amongst Men, inspiring them to renounce the Valar, while paradoxically using his status and knowledge as a Maia to collaborate with the Elves and convince them that working with him and making the Rings of Power for the greater good was in their best interest, but in truth was working to deceive and enslave all living beings. And Sauron could justify all this in his mind, because he had come to the conclusion that it was not enough to either reject Eru like Morgoth or serve Him like the Valar: Sauron wanted a third option, to become God and control everyone, as you rightly pointed out. The law of Eru would be effectively supplanted by the law of Sauron, and therefore his true and perfect order beyond good and evil (which just turned out to be totalitarian evil) could be finally achieved: as you rightly point out, power became its own justification and any means was justified. In Sauron's mind, if Eru Ilúvatar was going to neglect his duties and responsibilities to his creation by allowing free will, and therefore suffering, then Sauron would have to rule instead to "minimize" suffering. And to do that he needed absolute power, like the kind that Morgoth foolishly threw away in his crusade to spite Eru. So perversely Sauron sees himself as "reformed" from his time as Morgoth's servant, when all he became was a new form of absolute evil in his quest for ever greater power and control.

[@dylantorres2496]

My favorite day! Not because it’s Friday but because I get a GeekZone video! Whoooohooo! Keep it up!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Awww thanks bro

[@b0bbuffet]

Yes and a new episode of the Mandalorian!

[@benyoblick8006]

That was such an awesome video! The artwork was the amazing!!! Such good stuff out there!

[@everexpanding1]

Interesting perspective. I'd always seen Sauron as utterly malevolent without a hint of goodness in him but this implies that he was well intentioned.

[@anatoldenevers237]

Gerard Guzzo he may have thought his goals were noble, but don't think that Sauron is an anti villain at all. He is a sadistic manipulative genocidal monster. But yes he is more complex than many people assume

[@josephraffurty9293]

Another great video! Well done. I’m glad you pushed back this video’s release to make sure the topic was properly presented. I can’t imagine how much work this must have taken to research. Applause. Very interested in your comparison of Sauren and Morgoth you mentioned earlier. I’m sure it was very tempting to get trapped into that topic. Looking forward to future videos. Thank you patrons for supporting this channel.

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The very nature of the ends justifying the means inevitably leads to the increasingly skewed perception that any objective of the one holding power is worthy and therefore by default any opposition, no matter what or why becomes an evil obstacle to be destroyed or submitted by the one wielding the power.

[@159donat]

Your voice is so calming, you should be the audiobook voice for tolkien work

[@caesarmendez6782]

Sauron may have existed in the 'Light' & wanted a 'good' world but his 'vision' of how things should work didn't match the way the world of people actually did work. And he no doubt had personality traits that would lead him into dark evil.

[@I86282]

Yo that was a badass analysis. That was in a video about a Sauron. That was a video about recognizing ourselves in all the characters of Middle Earth. As seen through the eyes of JRR talking. Badass!

[@sedatedsith]

Another fantastic video! Take care and be safe my friend.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks man! You too my friend! :)

[@lordjulian4263]

Nice video! Thanks! One minor thing about the ring: Sauron was right in that none could resist it. It got destroid by 'fate' or 'chance' but not by Frodo. He actively refused to destroi it in the end. All who had posession of the ring could not resist it. And all who did lile Galadriel and Faramir did not really posess it they did not take it. Smal but relavant detail.

[@nfragala]

Morgoroth didn't want to destroy all life, he wanted dominion over it.

[@anatoldenevers237]

Anon at first he wanted to rule, eventually he decided to just wipe out everything

[@noreaster7171]

Melkor/Morgoth wanted to create life like Illuvatar. He journeyed into the void searching for the ‘flame imperishable’ not knowing it rested with Illuatar alone. Morgoth became jealous and decided to corrupt the song which created the world. He would then journey to Arda and sought to make it in his own image. Once again he could not create life only corrupt and twist it. Morgoth sought to destroy all that would not bow down to him alone. Morgoth’s intent was to embarrass the Valar and Illuvatar by enslaving all of Arda.

[@noreaster7171]

It’s just too simplistic to classify Morgoth as an evil nihilistic being bent on destroying everything. He was the greatest spirit created by Illuvatar so obviously he was most likely extremely intelligent. As I said earlier I believe his intent was to prove to Illuvatar that he knew best by taking Arda and bending it to himself. In this way perhaps he hoped Illuvatar would provide him with the ability to create life. That is the one obsession that leads to Morgoth’s fall. He wanted to be either the equal or even greater than Illuvatar.

[@nfragala]

@@noreaster7171 mostly well put.

[@nfragala]

@@noreaster7171 it was vanity that drove Morgoroth, not obsession. In the beginning he was much like a child who desires to emulate his father, but since the flame to create life resides only within iluvatar Morgoroth became loth and vanity consumed him until all that his father created he wanted dominion over.

[@alexandrudanciu7874]

This one especially, was an EXCEPTIONALLY high quality explanation of Sauron thoughts and mind. Absolutely powerful explanation and so accurate. Thanks for the video. I enjoyed it to the last silabus😊 I'm in total agreement with every single word that you spoke about Sauron.

[@kevinobill4818]

When I think of Sauron, I always see him as a domineering figure of evil and chaos.

[@GeekZoneMT]

That would probably be more appropriate for Morgoth :) Since order remained an important characteristic to Sauron

[@halo091]

Sauron was about order

[@KarlVyt]

@@GeekZoneMT I'm curious about something. Why do you think Eru allowed Arda to be created in the form that it was , that is its very essence infused with Melkors discord. Since Eru is basically the LOTR version of God do you think he realized that without good and evil present in the world , the whole thing wouldn't work otherwise?

[@KarlVyt]

@Joseph Norm I whole heartedly agree. I only was referring to how "good" and "evil" in Tolkien's mythology of middle earth is supposed to function.

[@anatoldenevers237]

Kevin O'Bill Morgoth, he is the embodiment of Pure Evil

[@10uRization]

I’m happy to find you and i enjoy your vids. There’re lots of facts and ideas you can offer me to debate with my friends, like we can talk till we pass out lol. Thank you for creating what you love to do! :)

[@mitchrowell371]

Amazing Karl keep up the great work my friend!!!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Cheers buddy!! :D

[@goodreason3123]

Great video. For years I wanted some context between Saurons and Morgoths relationship. I got it little bit here.

[@kaedo-2740]

*Sauron escape judgment* Valar: >:c Sauron: I did it for the greater good! Valar and Eru: *Surprised Pikachu face*

[@_semih_]

Valar and Eru: "*Bruuhh*"

[@kaedo-2740]

@@_semih_ Melkor: that's my boi

[@_semih_]

@@kaedo-2740 lol :)

[@colonelautism9957]

Inb4 sauron did nothing wrong spam

[@arcticwolfplays5519]

Just from the beginning of the vid, I like you already. You’re the best Geekzone.

[@valentetorrez3398]

I think one of the things that makes the mythology of Tolkien’s works so timeless is that they are deeply rooted in human nature & cut to the core of how people have come into conflict throughout human history. That’s why it’s so easy to see the good of your perspective & evil in any other that doesn’t line up exactly with yours. It’s easily illustrated by the comments where evil is ascribed to the opposing views of the person commenting. As you mentioned in the video the true evil is in obtaining or trying to attain absolute power. Believing so blindly that your vision is the only one that matters or is right. So much so, you become willing to disregard & destroy any differing perspective. Very poetic that Sauron is referred to as the all seeing eye when his descent into evil can most accurately be attributed to blindness or tunnel vision.

[@1Plebeian]

I extremely like Gandalf's expression of how Gondor fell into disrepair. How the kings languished and their attention strayed. It's a deep cut on human consciousness and indulgence in a vacuum.

[@HuffeNuvven]

Wow where do you even find all these great pictures? They blend so well with you talking over them! Great video as always :)

[@alejandromolina7270]

Everytime I hear "the greater good" all I can think is Hot Fuzz. "This is all for the greater good" "The Greater Good" said the group at once. "Shut it"

[@jorgerivera244]

The amount of chills and goosebumps I got from hearing The First Hunter's theme was off the charts...

[@marckrieger3277]

Wow i learned something new about middle earth today, thats what i love about your videos. Never immagined sauron had an amazing back story like this. Fit into Tollkiens dislike of modern technologys that most of the evli guys are conected to the angel of smiths.

[@lsporter88]

A most thorough and excellent explanation. More like Poetry than Commentary.

[@panhandlersparadise1733]

Sauron wasn't evil, he was the good guy in the story. 1st- He understood Melkor's music was part of of Illuvatar's song, which had to be finished before the more beautiful second song could begin. He was trying to help that song play out so Middle Earth could move into its age of paradise. 2nd- He made the 9 and the 7 rings to provide Elven immortality to men and dwarves. The kings of each were greedy and hoarded the rings' power to themselves instead of sharing it with their subjects; you can't blame Sauron for that. His intention was to be helpful. 3rd- Sauron's orcs (and other subjects) earned their positions through their own prowess and ability. Any orc could become a chieftan or even a king with enough ambition and talent. Men, elves, and dwarves utilized hereditary systems of determining who was noble and who would be a starving peasant throughout their lives. - When you put those together, you realize the greed of elves, men, and dwarves made them not want the second of Illuvatar's songs to come to pass, as it would make everyone equal in a paradise world. Their rulers were trying to prevent Sauron from bringing about paradise so they could maintain their power and wealth and keep their rule over their subjects instead of sharing Illuvatar's blessings among all the people of Middle Earth as intended and planned by good people such as Sauron.

[@anatoldenevers237]

Honestly can't tell if this is serious or not.

[@ad61video]

"Thats pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps." This quote from Pulp Fiction fits Saurons situation. He would not have listened.

[@EscapeMCP]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

[@nathanielhellerstein5871]

So is the road out of hell. It's the same road. The question is what direction you are going on it.

[@bigfish3428]

Have been looking for a hour for a video that is going to put me to sleep.. it's definitely going to do it. Thank you.

[@starkilr101]

It sounds like Sauron has read Plato’s republic many times

[@josefharvey5614]

I love this character. Wouldn't mind serving this guy without all the evil killing, but he genuinely sounds like an interesting person to have a chat with. Lol

[@arcticwolfplays5519]

So Sauron was once an anti-villain but became an actual villain.

[@anatoldenevers237]

Anti-villains can certainly be actual villains at the same time, they aren't mutually exclusive.

[@chefitaly7339]

How could anyone down vote this video? Crazy, awesome job man

[@AngelArm1110]

Funny to think how Sauron was, in a way, a lesser version of Morgoth, having a smaller dominion, and essentially replaced Morgoth after his fall, and Saruman, who followed Sauron, became a lesser version of Sauron, in the scouring of the Shire, he became, in a way, another dark lord, with a yet smaller dominion

[@psychotripnerdstuff]

Yes! I've been waiting for this video! Thanks, Carl!

[@GeekZoneMT]

You're welcome buddy, I hope you enjoy it ;)

[@sadek__4952]

Can you please tell me what's the name of the theme you are using ? I tried to find any kind of link to it but can't. The music is really cool tbh

[@GeekZoneMT]

Hey Sadek, if you're referring to the opening song it's called 'Eternal Hatred' from Warhammer total war :)

[@sadek__4952]

@@GeekZoneMT exactly what I meant here, thank you very much I was hoping I could be here early on some vid so I get to ask you. I was lucky today lol, thanks again

[@Hoss_Delgado977]

I love your videos and watch each upload attentively a few times and then put them into my sleep playlists because you have an enchanting/relaxing voice and it's relaxing being retold stories I've been told before.

[@FighterOfSwords3]

I never really percieved Morgoth's end goal being the destruction of all living things, but rather that he had dominion over all and could create his own beings as well. This is why he attempted to find the Secret Fire in the Void. Therefore, I don't think Sauron and Morgoth had incompatible goals.

[@badgasaurus4211]

He wanted to create for himself but Eru would not allow it so he set out to destroy Eru’s creations. If he was not allowed to create then why should Eru? Sauron’s goals would have not have tied up with morgoth because morgoth wanted to destroy everything Eru made, and since there is only one world available, Sauron would eventually have to jump ship. Sauron would work with what was there, morgoth wanted rid of it all.

[@jonathancampbell5231]

Yes, that was his goal in the beginning. He only became nihilistic towards the end. Like Sauron, he started off with good-ish intentions, or at least not purely evil ones.

[@badgasaurus4211]

@@jonathancampbell5231 I mean, morgoth’s intentions soured pretty fast. The second he got on arda he wanted to destroy everything and everyone

[@jonathancampbell5231]

@@badgasaurus4211 Been a while since I read it but it's not the impression I got. When he first got into Arda he was more interested in finding a space he could call "his" and begin breeding new forms of life etc Those life forms ended up being monsters for use in war, but that was more because he expected the Valar to try and stop him.

[@badgasaurus4211]

@@jonathancampbell5231 Sure but in order to get that he had to destroy what the valar has already made. Remember how he went to aman and destroyed the trees of light? And no, he definitely made those creatures with the intention of fighting the valar and the Eru’s children, it was no defence mechanisms.

[@ericgardner3140]

Amazing video. I especially like the intro quote from Paradise Lost, very appropriate for this topic. I have often drawn parallels between the story of Sauron and story of the fall of Lucifer from the Old Testament. As we all know, Tolkien was a Catholic, so you can also see the ties to ritual practice, as well as the theme of corruption that runs so heavily through his works. I find your take on this theme to be most insightful. Keep up the good work!

[@danmoar94]

Dominating the minds of others is basically a sin? Someone should have told the Shadow of Mordor developers..

[@christophersanchez7731]

No it was meant to be a parallel In the games Celebrimbor as a Wraith basically became Sauron As the Bright Lord he used Talion as a vessel to dominate the minds of Orcs to make an army to overthrow Sauron and spread his own light to the world for the Greater Good But as Shelob in second game finale reveal, it was simply trading one tyrant with another, which was why in True Game ending she helped Talion in giving himself the choice to oppose that future by becoming a Nazgul and held back Sauron’s darkness for years, even as Sauron and Celebrimbor became one and oppose eachother until their ultimate demise wit the One Ring’s Destruction years later Celebrimbor’s fate was a parallel to Sauron himself and how he became a tyrant for the greater good, which Talion in the end opposed both in the True Game ending and made sure the right conclusion happened

[@pablito4762]

He just wanted peace, justice and security for his new Empire.

[@sebastiaanvanveen3719]

Great video mellon, one of the best i’ve ever seen! So intressting that Sauron’s phylosophie wasn’t evil. But with time passing, he began to see himself as a god. Wich corrupted him.😇😁

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks Seth! It was one of my favourite to research so far, probably second only to my video on the Nameless Things :)

[@paulcave87]

my favorite video of yours so far! Excellent in every way. thanks!

[@johnnybhoff226]

Can you make long lore videos. Going really into the depth of certain battles, characters or even realms. I think it would be really informative and exciting to watch. Either way i love the content and will not be mad if I don’t get my 1 hour video. I just think it’d be really interesting.

[@GeekZoneMT]

To be honest usually even a weekly video can take me a while (especially to research), so hour long videos would take a month at least to prepare :) But whenever I discuss a topic I will also do so in its entiriety, for it would be a disservice on my end to leave anything out :)

[@johnnybhoff226]

Thank you for responding, I can understand the worries and where your coming from. It would be a ton of work for you to do. Either way I love the videos keep it up and I’ll be here!

[@jono8884]

The art is fantastic. I would love to see The Silmarillion with this art as a movie.

[@RicoThingol]

So Sauron was briefly good again after Morgoths fall? Is this in the Silmarillion? I don’t remember

[@GeekZoneMT]

It's mentioned in Morgoth's Ring, in an essay on the motives of Sauron

[@RicoThingol]

@@GeekZoneMT thank you! Need to buy it asap. I would have thought that he was irredeemable after what happened under Morgoth and how cruel he was.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah it's probably the best book from the Histoy of Middle-Earth series, other than the Peoples of Middle-Earth :)

[@tarmairon431]

What do you mean "briefly"? He was always good, but kings like Gil-Galad or Elendil defied him out of spite or out of egoism to keep their power.

[@comradecannabis7874]

@@tarmairon431 I don't think it was mentioned in the video, but Sauron also eventually wanted to strip all sapient life of free will. Does that still sound heroic and 'good'?

[@ofantastycekameralnie1600]

This is a really great episode! Like flying :) The material was great. In my opinion, this is a difficult topic to tell, but you made it! 👍

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks man! Yeah it was a bit difficult to organise, though I'm happy with the way its turned out :)

[@squall2590]

I always seen the unfinished sequal of lotr being morgoth coming back to middle earth and the main cast finding out he still had control over saurons mind and that he was trying to take over so he could comeback and find the silmirils or someshit like that

[@Alizudo]

Well Tolkien actually did write 1 chapter to a LOTR sequel before stopping. And I can tell you, it's nothing at all like what you just wrote.

[@squall2590]

@@Alizudo the one chapter he wrote was about middle earth during the end of aragorns sons rule, and that one of minus triths guards who was at the black gate was investigating a cult, and if i remember correctly nothing was really specified about the group, i mean you couldent see sauron as a puppet being controlled by morgoth, and the reason sauron was being controlled is that the silmirils are in middle earth, because let's not forget, that sauron was a servant of morgoth, and that morgoth could be whispering in the the cult leaders ear, so he could come back and take over middle earth, and launch a war with valinor for one final battle, i mean to be fair ive admittedly never read the silmirlion.

[@Alizudo]

@@squall2590 Morgoth is in the Void. He can't see, he can't feel, he can't hear, nothing. Morgoth cannot and will not return until the End of Time. Sauron wasn't being controlled by Morgoth just because he had the Silmarils, that's stupid. The Silmarils had nothing to do with Morgoth's plans, he just wanted them.

[@squall2590]

@@Alizudo thats info i didnt have, so maybe thats not the way it could happen that way, i mean maybe the cultists are trying to end the world for morgoth to come back you know, maybe I'm right thinking that, maybe I'm wrong, you don't know, and i don't know, but think for a minute, that maybe because we never knew we could think about what could happen,even if it should be outside the realm of possibility, think about it like this, we both know hes in the void you say he cannot see or hear or anything, but when you think like that, you forget the most important part of lotr and the hobbit and the simirilion, that being its all fantasy it dosent have to smart or logical, i mean when nothing is explained very well in the books whats the excuse? Its magic when you think like that you also forget one of the reasons the books were written, that being to explain tolkiens languages, you honestly have killed any enjoyment for yourself for taking it so literly, just take the minute and think about what it could be about,if not morgoth coming back then what? Id honestly like to know

[@nhlcbj]

Great video, I love analysis videos of villains like this. And being a Vaatividya fan, using Gherman’s Theme from Bloodborne was a great touch!

[@LordWyatt]

What I love about Malchior and Sauron is how both represent Lucifer/Satan. A being who wants to change the perfect creation by going away from the Source of Life by any means necessary. Malchior wanted power for chaos, Sauron wanted Order through HIS rule. Their goals differed but their reasoning was rooted in the same Pride😂👌

[@stephenstevens6573]

I watch quite a few LOTR channels. I never comment, but I have to tell you, that your videos are by far the best researched and best delivered. Thank you for what you do!

[@Klyis]

I find it interesting that Sauron worked with Morgoth given that their goals were ideologically opposed. Do you think that had Morgoth won the War of Wrath Sauron would have just overthrown him himself? There had to be a inevitable breaking point between the two of them at them some point, but Morgoth was just deposed by others forces before it was reached.

[@_semih_]

Sauron was extremely loyal to Morgoth and he was his most trusted servant as it mentioned in the books. So Sauron wouldn't try to overthrow his master

[@masseyfurguson8871]

*GeekZone your amazing, thank you for all you do!*

[@bartoszpastuszak257]

Good guy sauron -created industry -gave free Jobs - helped tribals Yup, sauron is true good guy.

[@D._Eath]

'There's nothing more terrible than someone out to do the world a favor.' - Terry Pratchett