Why we Avoid Praise at Forest School - How to be non judgemental in your practice

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Hi Forest School people! If you've found this video helpful - I've also got a free downloadable document you may be interested in - 'The Role of the Adult at Forest School - A Guide for Helpers'. It's available on my buy me a coffee page - www.buymeacoffee.com/forestschoollou Check out the 'Extras' page to access it and other free Forest School goodies!

[@forestcampclub]

quite interesting.

[@WildGingerBruce]

There was a lot of information in that video, I would be pleased if I were you, Thank you for sharing this with us all *trying hard not to praise* ATB Bruce

[@ForestSchoolLou]

LOL - Thanks Bruce! I notice you practicing not praising there :-)

[@nickybarnes7904]

Thanks Lou, feels like i have had a FS tonic top up 🙂

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching!

[@sigridwatkins6707]

Very helpful video, thanks Lou!

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching!

[@JuniorPullen]

This was very difficult to swallow! A lot of points for discussion. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience.

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching! I agree - it can be very tricky within mainstream education systems to challenge established beliefs. I found listening to Alfie Kohn really useful - there are lots of recordings of him speaking on KZbin, he's well worth checking out!

[@gemanarmiglenastef1841]

This has always been such a debated topic in our center sometimes debated in the mind:). I feel hopeless sometimes because i see it engrained in staff, in families and in children ... the damage has started soon long ago that i feel like swimming in an ocean. So much truth in what you say. Thank you.

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching! Yes, it runs deep in our consumeristic society and can be a very emotive topic! The way I see it, is that we can model non-judgemental approaches & then maybe other people may notice and also start to do it and so on... like ripples in a pond 😀

[@tracywillis8460]

I love your channel! I'm opening an in-home daycare with a large outdoor playground. I'm looking at all sorts of nature schools for inspiration of how to turn our play area into a nature classroom.

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching Tracy!

[@LearnPlayTeachenglish]

I notice you basically got life the universe and everything covered in that one!🙏 Can I add one more alternative to praise? Just be quiet! 🤫 So many times we feel we have to say something, like WE are the ones who need to be noticed or feel heard, but at FS we're there for the learners and we should be noticing them... including noticing when all is fine and we're not actually needed!

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Absolutely agree - and silence can be such a powerful thing, creating space for all sorts of things. Thanks for watching and sharing!

[@lynnpreece8461]

Goodness this really resonates with me, even as an adult! Being a people pleaser, chasing the Facebook likes etc Super interesting! Thank you Lou 😊

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching Lynn!

[@natashaharvey8958]

Thank you for sharing this Lou, it will be useful for me not just at FS but in all my practice - sharing with my colleagues so they can hear it too 😊

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching Natasha, and for sharing! Hope it stimulates some rich discussions with your colleagues! 😀

[@AdamCrossley-xp1fg]

I really appreciated this video. Thank you for not just outlining why praise can be detrimental, but also suggesting some alternative ways to communicate. I found that very helpful. I’m fascinated by the idea of nonviolent communication and will definitely look into Rosenberg’s book. Edit: I’ve had a really interesting discussion with my wife about this video. She’s a Y1 teacher. We both agree that intrinsic motivation is the ideal, but there are definitely situations where children need to learn something that they don’t want to, such as handwriting or maths. There are also clear rights and wrongs in handwriting and maths. Praise is very useful in these situations, where intrinsic motivation may never get them the skills that society requires them to have. Of course in FS, there’s no pressure on children’s attainment. So it’s a great opportunity to foster intrinsic motivation. What do you think about this? Are there situations when praise-based language is the right way to get children where they need to be? Or is it always bad? (Besides your example where you said the praise was serving your own needs to keep the class quiet.)

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching Adam! Definately, check out Marshall Rosenbergs work on Non Violent Communication - there are some of his training videos on KZbin if you do a search. In terms of praise within the school system - its so tough, as the majority of schools are based in sanctions and rewards based systems, it is quite deeply engrained and can be really tricky to try alternative methods if you are the only one questioning it within a school. Ultimately the whole system is not set up in a way to support individuals needs and foster intrinsic motivation. In a more individualised education system there would be no need to get all children of a certain age to achieve certain benchmarks in handwriting or maths at the same time. In an ideal education a childs natural curiosity would be cultivated and encouraged to grow so that children learn maths and handwriting at a time that is the most relevant to them and in a way that they can apply it to their own projects in a meaningful way. Someone I would really recommend taking a look at in terms of this is Alfie Kohn - again there are lots of vids of him speaking at events on KZbin and one of his books worth checking out is 'Punished by Rewards'. He suggests that by externally rewarding a child (including praise) we make that child less likely to initiate whatever it was they were doing when we praised them when we are not there in the future. This is because the child becomes fixed on the reward rather than the task/learning/project/attitude they were doing. So praising a child for doing neat handwriting makes them less likely to spend time and effort writing neatly in the future if we are not around to praise them. This then leads to rewards having to grow more and more. Praise/rewards works in the short term, but not in the long term. An alternative opinion to this would be Carol Dweck creator of 'Growth Mindset' - she suggest praising for effort and attitudes rather than outcomes. Louis Weinstock mentions her work in the conversation I had with him - kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZLKpHaDYrB3Y6Msi=e9_AkNCMn0DIzNN0 I confess I'm more with Alfie on this one though - looking back I can remember times in my own school life when rewards became the focus and I didn't truly learn anything beyond cramming enough to pass the exam and get the grade I needed. Its such a massive cultural mind shift though! I think starting conversations about this is a really positive way to get people to question the status quo of society.

[@AdamCrossley-xp1fg]

Thank you for writing such a detailed and thoughtful response. I like your vision of a society in which we don’t require children to achieve specific outcomes at specific ages (and then judge both them and their teachers when they fail). It reminds me of one of my favourite books, The Dispossessed by Ursula Ke Le Guin. It’s a sci-fi novel that imagines what a truly anarchist society would look like, and the school system is similar to what you describe. I can’t recommend it highly enough.

[@wendybailey6720]

You explained the non-judgemental approach Lou clearly. I've started using the approach in my childminding setting after one particular parent constantly tells me that their child is clever for walking on a balance beam and using a swing 🤷‍♀️

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching Wendy! Best of luck gently sharing the approach with parents! 😀

[@lisag954]

Hi, what a lovely and interesting channel. I could’ve done with this nineteen years ago. Still very enjoyable to watch and informative. Thank you 😊

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching @Lisa G !

[@SJSeeryMusic]

This is such a helpful clip and exactly what I was hoping you’d cover! Thank you, Lou!

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching! Glad it is useful to you... in a non-judgemental way of course! 😉

[@jasminhamilton1147]

Thank you for this video! Thank you for the links. Your videos are very helpful!

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching Jasmin! Glad you are finding them helpful.

[@inbalroll633]

I am completely shocked and confused by that video. I grow up with a mum that believes in that theory so never praised me. So when I moved to Australia and learn childcare It was very hard and not natural for me to praise children for everything that I often been told that I need to use it more. I worked hard on that and was very proud with myself when it became more natural to me to do that. Now I watched your video and everything you said is so true and make sense but I am so confused and I feel that I need to re-evaluate the way I talk to children again

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for your honesty. I've noticed that this topic of not praising can be really challenging for people - especially within the mainstream education sector. I guess mainstream society has 'normalised' judgements, to the point where some people have lost sight of any alternative. It can be tough doing something different from what the rest of society is doing. I think this is where Forest School can be really powerful - decision makers in education often think its 'just' playing in the woods and good for 'broadening the curriculum' but what we are doing is more subtle - we're empowering individuals to be themselves, know their own mind and find their voice! I'm curious as you mentioned being raised in a non-judgemental way - were you aware of this at the time in your childhood? and how do you think that method of parenting affected you growing up?

[@ondfinneran8225]

Very interesting i have shared with my colleagues thku

[@kjones780]

I loved watching this, I'm looking at a career change to forest schools and going back to working with children (I used to be a sports coach) but in a more holistic, outdoor role but which courses and topics discuss this way of coaching/leading children? Is this now part of the standard level 3 childcare courses? or are they like still mainstream schools?

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching! It will depend on where you are. In the UK we have nationally recognised qualifications to become a Forest School Leader. It is not normally covered in any great depth in mainstream childcare courses - although might be mentioned.

[@CoreyPope1]

So if a child were to offer me a bit of mud tea, is it praise to say "yummy" or is that just playing along?

[@ForestSchoolLou]

Thanks for watching. I personally would say that their has to be some sort of positive judgement behind the statement for it to be praise 'well done, you're so clever to make the mud tea its so yummy' which I think is different to actively engaging in the role play 'what yummy tea, I wonder what the ingredients are?' I guess there could be a fine line between it.