Why We Keep Retelling Persephone's Story

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▪️Persephone the Destroyer, Kore the Maiden. Why do we keep telling this story and reimagining these characters?
Thumbnail Art by @truesquidk
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▶️ Overly Sarcastic Productions: • Miscellaneous Myths: H...
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[@Princess_Weekes]

I hadn't expected so many people to be interested in my in-depth thoughts about Lore Olympus lol. Since that wasn't the focus of this video, but I also don't want y'all to be too disappointed here are my ~thoughts~ (1) Age gap: I already said it doesn't bother me in the video. I go back and forth if it should have just been ignored completely rather than made a point of at all since I feel like it bothers people that it was brought up and then hand-waved. I think RS was trying to be responsible in that regard to at least acknowledge there would be a power imbalance since her readership is broad. Yet, I feel like it only brings focus to the issue. People are going to make their own decision about if they think the relationship is comfortable or not and I don't think (in this incarnation) it really needed to be discussed. (2) Depictions of Abuse/SA (TW): As a survivor of date rape and an emotionally abusive partner, a lot of what happens in these moments focusing on this really aligns with my own emotional experience. Especially the assault scene with Apollo/Persephone. Not only has something like that happened to me but has happened to multiple women I know. It rings true. As for Minthe, I get why it can be frustrating to have an abusive person also be shown to have some sympathetic elements, but I don't think addressing that absolves Minthe. (3) Lack of Body Diversity: I did notice that other than Hestia we don't have much different body shapes other than height and I agree that is disappointing. (4) Tone: I saw one commenter mention that the series has both slice of life and narratives of abuse happening at such a shift it can be jarring. I do understand that criticism. I think for me, because of a lot of manga/anime I read it feels almost normal to have storytelling that breaks up like that. Especially because as a creator-you do want to break up strings of sadness. I know it can feel like a deviation or "filler" but as I get older, the more I sort of see the need to not just wear the audience down. It reminds me of how in Utena, you'd have these really intense psychologically drive episodes and then a whole episode of a side character getting dunked on. In the moment I just wanted the meal, but upon rewatching I'm thankful for the break. Anyway, those are my thoughts in general and if there is anything anyone wants to ask me we will just do it here

[@CostumedFiend_Audio]

Ok, what you said about tone is almost exactly what I was thinking. Having grown up reading Shojo (and other manga) I feel like the pacing of Lore Olympus feels very similar. Not to sound like an old lady, but I think the problem is that for younger audiences things in webcomics and TV happen so quickly that slow burns feel like they're taking forever. I'm personally someone who doesn't mind easing into storylines and likes to have time with characters. Occasionally I'll think it's been a bit too long in between the side plots, but overall, I think it's fine.

[@RosieG9012]

Kind of disappointed that these are people’s main critiques of the comic. I fell off reading it after season 1 so when people started mentioning “controversies” and “bad depictions of abuse” I assumed that something new had happened and been horribly mishandled but… no. seems like most of this is just… complexity which is acknowledged by the narrative as such?

[@ShyyGaladriel]

I’m looking forward to listening to your interview! Thank you for sharing this! I loved it!

[@mjcrom]

Also, on tone, that's just what being a survivor is like sometimes. Life is normal, normal, normal, HORRIFIC, normal, normal, DEVASTATING, normal...

[@anyaeacmen9578]

When I inevitably get Nebula it will be almost solely for that interview! Great work as always!!!!!

[@davidmaxwell4696]

Thank you for the justice for Demeter!!! It feels like every adaptation from Percy Jackson to Hades presents her as a horrible, overbearing parent. Especially when Zeus, Mr Abusive Parent incarnate, is literally right there

[@animeotaku307]

Right?! Her daughter went missing, of course she’d freak out! What mother wouldn’t? At least LO gave her a legitimate reason to be overbearing. I may not agree with her, but I understand that she was doing what she thought was best to protect her daughter.

[@alinashirinian2485]

Exactly! It is completely fine that people have their own readings of this myth, but them trying to present their version as The Canon is what I take issue with. I know that many people grew up with abusive mothers and they take comfort in interpreting this myth as Hades saving Persephone from an abusive home, but it is honestly shocking to me how common, I would even say "trendy" this interpretation is. To me the most striking part of this story is and will always be the pain of Demeter, a mother whose beloved child was taken from her without her KNOWLEDGE (consent wasn't the real issue there, given the time period). Imo, the only abusive asshole there is Zeus (as usual, lol).

[@blanca3806]

I mean in Percy Jackson every God, including and specially Zeus, has a pretty negative representation. Demeter’s is one of the lighter ones.

[@davidmaxwell4696]

@@blanca3806 Yeah, she comes off better than Zeus, but that's a pretty low bar lol I think Riordan wrote her pretty flat to begin with and really only expanded her when Meg came along in ToA I think Demeter's only "on-screen" appearance in the whole series is in The Last Olympian where's she's just a nagging mother-in-law stereotype driving Hades, Persephone, and Nico up the wall over not eating enough cereal. Its a far cry from her being the compassionate mother she was in the myth ToA remedies it slightly with her sending Meg Peaches. Most Olympians in the series do the bare minimum, much less send a magical companion to protect their kids lol though she doesn't do much else besides that, as far as I can recall or even appear so its not much of an expansion of her character

[@demetria-n]

I agree. (I suggest you definitely don't look into my name at all, don't do it, I see you typing in that google search bar ;))

[@witchplease9695]

People love romanticizing the idea of a brooding, dark yet powerful man falling hopelessly in love with a bright-eyed beautiful young woman. Its the mythology version of bad boy falling for the good girl, devil falling for the angel, the beast falling for the beauty. A tale as old time (pun intended). I’m personally tired of the trope, though I do enjoy Lore Olympus and retellings where Persephone has agency and is equal to him. In the original myths, he’s one of the few Gods I like as he seems to just be a chill guy that minds his business and loves his wife. Even in the Disney film he’s a likable and entertaining villain. I’ll never forgive Disney for trying to convince people that Zeus and Hera are good parents though.

[@jaheimjohnson2267]

The way that I was laughing seeing Hera being Hercules' loving mother in that movie!😂😂😂

[@witchplease9695]

@@jaheimjohnson2267 Such propaganda 😭😂

[@jaheimjohnson2267]

@@witchplease9695 Right! Like this is the woman who literally hounded Hercules from the day he was born, to the day he died!

[@cepahreinholt8710]

Disney's hercule is more a superman story than a hercule story. From this point of view it's kind of a nice movie. It just don't have a lot to do whith greek mythologie.

[@kaly_ths_291]

As a Greek, seeing Zeus being in a happy, monogamous, no cheating relationship to Hera, was really s o m e t h i n g (entirely confusing)

[@coffin_qt]

My only complaint with a lot of modern retellings is I do feel quite a few of them often give Persephone the “uwu smol bean, cinnamon roll” treatment and I’d like to see more of her as a strong, capable woman instead of a naïve girl, I want more of her duality of being a goddess of life and a queen of death. Greeks used to not utter her name in fear of invoking her wrath and in quite a few myths, she’s depicted as being a bit sadistic and the one between her and Hades to duel out harsher punishments. I really love Hadestown’s version of Persephone for going for a more mature version of her. She feels complex. She’s still light hearted and fun loving (seeing how she acts before having to depart from up top to Hadestown) as I’ve often seen Persephone depicted while still feeling like she’s come into her own, she’s aged, she is a Queen and knows it.

[@animeotaku307]

Agreed! I really liked “Hades” Persephone being something of a schemer, albeit in the “gotta play damage control here” way rather than anything ambitious.

[@Charolette21]

It didn’t help she was a bit child coded as well. Frankly, she should have given off the vibes of what Tolkien’s Galadriel in the first age of middle earth (hell, maybe the years of the trees) and grow to become the 3rd age of her.

[@Charolette21]

@Nina I honestly would have respected her more if it was intentional and kept her a plant.

[@tattoocutiegal7629]

@Nina I think your misintpering Persephone character here, it is an accident but not there kind where you lose control of your body but your composer. Persephone didn't lose control her powers she just found out the Minthe is reponslbe for her current predicament and snaped, Persphone has thoughts and feel ever since she was young but she has been trying to ignore them because she believes they conflict with her sweet, kind person Persephone (and others see her as) but Persephone doesn't have to one or the other and the entire story is about her Realizing that she can be both the bringer life and death.

[@Senekata4]

Well, if you want a good retellings of Hades/Persephone (but not only) with a Persephone who is not a "uwu smol bean, cinnamon roll", there is Theia mania

[@m.g.4446]

From Demeter's perspective it's a mystery drama about a single mother investigating her daughter's disappearance

[@Duiker36]

Honestly, why hasn't this story been written. (I mean... I'm pretty ignorant, so it probably has and I haven't heard of it.)

[@despinasgarden.4100]

@@Duiker36 we need a version of this story.

[@fulana_de_tal]

And let's not forget that while her daughter, of which she became pregnant after being r4ped by one of her brothers, was being kept away from her by her other brother, her third brother came along and r4ped her again, making her pregnant of another daughter that she ended up neglecting because she was still depressed about Persephone's disappearance If anything, Demeter is the victim of this story

[@bardishcryptid]

I’d read that story. If it exists, someone should definitely share it edit: screw it, im writing this. i wont finish but its worth a shot

[@itnv4876]

@@Duiker36 there's a song from two spanish dudes that paint the story from dementer's perspective, its from a series called " destripando la historia " im sure there's english subtitles somewhere

[@lizzzylavender]

I just think it’s funny seeing people debate about the “original” Persephone in the myths as if she is just one person in one story with consistent characterization. There are about a billion iterations of the story, and I think it’s hilarious to see people say “well Persephone ACTUALLY-“ like bro there is no definitive story, it is myth, it is fluid.

[@Sunlight311]

Oh thank god. Sometimes I feel like the modern discourse about it fixates so much on the literal story and forgets that this is a MYTH. Is a religious narration that people used to explain the changing of seasons, and because of that it has numerous variants but the archetype remains. There are also asian and african iteration with the same narrative type and you just need to check Aarne and Thompson folk tale classification to see how many versions were in just eurasia. Kore transformation from young, naive virgin into married underworld deity Persephone was a representation of the passage of time and a ritualistic representation of the passage from childhood to adulthood. Hades could be considered a plot necessity in Persephone narrative, a way to explain why winter lasts so long and also the whole concept of winter = death and change.

[@cheri31]

I get upset about it because myths have a basis in history. Persephone was likely kidnapped because it's supposed to reflect what actual Greek women were forced to endure -- being married off against their will because powerful men would persuade their fathers to have their hand in marriage. Yes, there's a lot of discourse, but the fact that it is rooted in truth and real women being forced into marriages against their will is also a fact. It's why I really don't like this narrative that Persephone went willingly. It's disrespectful to the real women the story was likely influenced by.

[@Rebecca-bk9bd]

No there is literally only one version in original mythology lmao

[@mariagaldo2074]

@@Rebecca-bk9bd that is totally not true. even if there was a written story dated earlier than the others, it is preceded by centuries of oral tradition and inspiration from other folks myths and tradition

[@butasimpleidiotwizard]

@@mariagaldo2074 oral history from 3000+ years ago isn't relevant in this discussion, why even bring that up? We don't know about Hades and Persephone because of the oral tradition of the ancient Greeks, we know about them because of the recorded versions of the myth and while I personally have not done much research into Persephone I'd be inclined to believe the statement that there is only one surviving recorded version from the actual culture that developed the myth, and it is that surviving version upon which we base our modern interpretations, therefore it is the only relevant version.

[@jayda.orr06]

I think the characterization of Demeter is a lot of modern work retelling the Hades - Persephone's story is that she is "Mother Gothel" woman who wants to lock Persephone in a tower. When Demeter just loves her daughter and is freaked out when she goes suddenly with a strange man with the permission of her rapist brother.

[@godofthebirds3915]

Well, Hadēs is no a strange man, is, like Zeus, his brother too

[@Jabroniville]

Yeah Demeter kind of gets the raw end of the stick in modern retellings... mostly because current writers are trying to make the Hades/Persephone thing a "Star-Crossed Lovers" thing full of romance and the somewhat-dark soft boy falling for the pretty flowery girl, and the only way to do that is to make SOME people the antagonists, and that usually ends up being an overprotective mom because there's few others that are still integral to the myth, haha. Punderworld just makes Zeus a party-boy who gives bad advice but Demeter is super-hostile the entire time.

[@despinasgarden.4100]

@@godofthebirds3915 with a brother like Zeus and Poseidon, no wonder she wants to keep him away from Persephone.

[@chewymint5224]

i mean any mother (or parent in general) would freak out if their children gets kidnapped by a stranger

[@angelicarose921]

@@chewymint5224 so true. Yet hades is also demeter’s brother as she procreated with her other brother, Zeus who gave permission for their brother to take her. Just so much incest in this

[@Ginny1Knights]

I also feel like people calling the myth problematic and criticizing the rise of this story are missing the super WEIRD part about the common version of the myth, which is that Demeter has a say. I know things with the gods are weird, but culturally it is still very strange. Hades asking Zeus for permission to have Persephone and kidnapping her and presenting her with a fruit to which her acceptance meant they were bound to each other were all common marriage traditions of the time. Not to say we can’t criticize any of that today, but that being in the myth itself seems pretty normal to exist. What IS weird is that Demeter wanted her daughter back and by all accounts, Hades did what was considered proper so there was absolutely no reason for Zeus to rescind his approval of the marriage and when Demeter took her grief out on the world, Zeus caved and asked Hades to give Persephone back. Knowing Ancient Greece’s treatment of women, this stands out to me that this is a story that turns around and kind of sympathizes with and favors a mother demanding back her daughter who was already given away by her father. So while Persephone only spends half the year with her mother, not a COMPLETE win for Demeter, it’s still an interesting stand out that a moral that says “a man should still consult the mother of his children before making decisions for them” is even hinted at.

[@Kelly_C]

the thing is though, _i_ know the cultural context of the myth, but most people don't, and people looking at it and going "wow seems like a good romance to me" really irks me. like I saw someone interpret the rape of proserpina as "possibly having a romantic, tender connotation" which like ???? have you SEEN the sculpture ??

[@corycianangel6321]

Kelly C what sculpture? does it have the same title?

[@Kelly_C]

@@corycianangel6321 the rape of proserpina

[@vodkamutini3979]

@deionei that didn't happen??

[@Kelly_C]

@deionei in what version

[@randomgirl2282]

Also, I notice that Persephone is almost entirely defined by her introductory story and less by other myths such as with Adonis and Minthe or her role in Eros and Psyche, I think it would be interesting for her roles in these other myths to get touched on

[@persephoneweiss8851]

*Lore Olympus: Well. It is my time to shine😎*

[@mj-f7135]

There is another hades and persephone story that does that on webtoon. 'hades and persephone' I think

[@beccag2758]

Overly Sarcastic Productions has a decent chunk of myths and research videos about her if you haven’t seen them

[@olive_mist2870]

She also may have raised Dionysus

[@alicedeligny9240]

I think Minthe is in a lot of retellings, as Hades' current or ex girlfriend.

[@DeadInside-ct6dl]

Also you made me think about another goddess (A Hindu goddess)who's SO underrated, who kind of mirrors Persephone's stories? Parvathi, considered to be the goddess of motherhood and fertility (but also is considered to be the form of THE primordial energy og the universe, what a queen), but her story is more of her desiring after Shiva (god of destruction) and basically MOVING him to marry her (cause he was kinda the og celibate, and usually going into penance was more of what men did), and they live in *relative* stability.

[@sleepycowboy18]

I absolutely love Parvathi! She's my favourite hindu goddess, an absolute god ass queen and shiva is her simp lul

[@Psy_Ro]

This might be a controversial take but fate grand order event Tokugawa restoration labyrinth event kinda gives one of the best versions of Parvati. Tho, too much in its fate ways.

[@Musubi95]

@@Psy_Ro I knew a fellow fgo player would be here also yeah FGO Parvati is a good version too

[@L3onking]

I'm a priest of Brahma, and I really appreciate how you understand the essence of Maparvati (Ma, for Mother a honorific) In Vedism, Shiva is known for helping bring things to their natural conclusion, so to Parvati, she can see how advantageous he would be as her partner. Remember these are the gods who's children made Bollywood, every song has the explosion of tantra. If Brahma is the scriptwriter, Vishnu is the director, Shiva is the Main Actor. That's why he's 👌👌👌

[@purbasapanigrahi3389]

I know right,being the literal univers and everything in it is so cool and badass

[@annapires991]

I resent a lot of the modern portrayal of Demeter as this overbearing terrible mother (thanks Hades for avoiding it), because a tale of the unconditional and bottomless love of a mother for a daughter is not common in media as of now and it certainly was not common back then. Paraphrasing, the idea of a love that could “undo rape and death itself” is just so powerful and tragic. I also wish for a portrayal of Persephone in equal standing to Hades, in terms of wit and maturity at least. We have some less famous ones, but all famous ones do not approach them like this (again, except Hades? Lol).

[@MsAngelique]

Maturity equal to Hades? Difficult to accomplish. He's old enough to be her father. Not that I have a problem with that.

[@sonofcronos7831]

​​@@MsAngelique The original story (homeric hymm to demeter) dont say her age, but she was likely thousands of years old since she was born even before Zeus married Hera (because Demeter was his fourth marriage, Hera was only his sixth or seventh marriage), so she was older than some of the other gods like Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Hermes, the Muses, etc. And some of these gods like Hermes are present in the story so is way after Persephone was born.

[@lityne5577]

There was this classics professor on TikTok, and she made a video discussing the myth. She specifically mentioned how prominent greek women, who had status but little power, spent most of their time with their daughters, because men were more free to socialise and their sons would leave, so it was just them and their girls until one of those women was sent potentially far off by their fathers, to be married. At which point the mothers may only see them once or twice a year for special festivals. She then suggested that the main character of the story is Demeter, who represents those women, but from a uniquely empowered perspective of being a vital goddess. What I found even more interesting was how she then discussed that Demeter's attempts to make Demophon immortal was a blatant fuck you to Zuse and Hades, because if she can give out immortality and thus divinity without Zuse, his position as king of the gods would mean nothing, and if she can make everyone immortal, then being king of the underworld becomes equally pointless. I've never really looked at the story the same since then, but IDK how much of that was her opinion/reinterpretation and how much was her explaining what Ancient Greek people would have understood.

[@lexa2310]

Is that Professor on KZbin as well? Would like to see that video too.

[@shadowmaster1313]

I think the reason that Demeter = helicopter parent happens is that giving Persephone agency means she should *choose* to eat the seeds and that motivation is easier if she's leaving something she doesn't want / trying to force the ability to stay in the underworld

[@marocat4749]

I wish it would give an understandable motivation to be to overprotectiv thou, but yes it makes sense. Maybe that its just her nature to nurture and thats the darker side of nature or something.

[@randomthoughts0829]

Or because everyone who retells the story that way has massive mommy issues and hates women

[@alinashirinian2485]

@@randomthoughts0829 I wonder how many of these people that paint Demeter not even as an overprotective mother (which is honestly valid), but as an abusive villain, are parents themselves.

[@alinashirinian2485]

@@marocat4749 she probably just didn't want her daughter to be raped by Zeus like almost everyone else had been at some point

[@godofthebirds3915]

@@alinashirinian2485 Hadēs* Demeter know that Persephone stay with Hadēs and she is afraid of she being hurt or something

[@charlieni645]

Not being able to see Hadestown on stage is making me physically in pain.

[@trashking471]

God same

[@CyanAnn]

Same 😭 i just want to see Hades and Persephone dance

[@animeotaku307]

It’s coming near me in a few months and I really can’t wait. Got my shots and getting my booster and wearing a mask (which I know is going to get soaked in tears and snot) if it means finally seeing it.

[@879SCSP]

Literally busted out $200 just to see it in Orchestra seats in LA. I have loved it since it was a CONCEPT ALBUM so I'm readyyyyy

[@karlwilker579]

@@879SCSP As someone who's seen the broadway production (One month before Covid hit no less), you're not ready.

[@rikuapologist]

hadestown persephone is ABSOLUTELY my favourite persephone, i love how anais mitchell puts this spin on her that's so unique from any other version of persephone i've ever seen but that makes SO much sense. persephone as a Wine Aunt™️ with this sharp bite to her and manic energy yet also a warm and caring heart? LOVE her. i want more older persephones like her

[@wisdommanari6701]

Who is the bad guy in this story Me: it's Zeus Melina : Zeus it's always Zeus Me: I'm psychic 😎

[@pagodrink]

I honestly really like your idea of us changing mythology to reflect our own values, cause it's honestly true. Most people see same sex couple in Greek mythology and reflect them to our own standards in relationship, but from what I remember from history class, same sex couple were mainly older men showing their "manliness" by being with younger men and that relationship would end as soon as the younger man grew up or they found a wife, not very romantic cause society didn't crave romance in those relationship (again some details are probably wrong so let me now). So taking control and giving us a opportunity to tell these stories ourselves, queer people and woman, is really powerful. Speaking of which, where are all the retelling of Narcissus and Ameinias? There is a gold mine of story telling potential there!

[@squeezie_b8895]

No, pederasty was practiced not as a means of exerting ones “manliness,” but part of the education a young nobleman received. It was essentially ritualized sexual abuse. Beyond pederasty, many Greek men widely engaged in homosexual liaisons. The only caveats were certain sexual acts and prostitution (or being a “kept” individual). But of course gay men weren’t couples as they are today - no one enjoyed that sort of relationship bc misogyny, classicism, and other forms of oppression hurts everybody.

[@di7209]

@@squeezie_b8895 From what I’ve read even though it was meant to only be between younger/older men in some cases people would stay in these relationships even as adults or be of similar age and depending on your status people would kinda just have to deal with it. There was a similar trend with Japans wakashu

[@crytypingcryptid6974]

Im not an expert on greek mythology in the slightest but would the story of Hyacinthus and Apollo be this same thing? I only know the vague basics of the story really.

[@animeotaku307]

Something I'd like to bring up with Demeter in Lore Olympus; she kept Persephone ignorant about her powers and away from the male gods because she believed that one of them would want to take advantage of her daughter (Apollo and Cronus prove her right, as well as Zeus swallowing Metis). It's very similar to, say, a mother making her daughter dress chastely so that she doesn't tempt men (and so they won't rape her). While I'm not condoning Demeter's actions, I understand that she was doing what she felt would best protect her daughter and it's sad that she had to take measures like these after other gods have taken advantage of fertility goddesses in the past. On another note, I once read a fanfic where the whole "the Earth is freezing over" wasn't because Demeter was mourning the loss of her daughter (she actually approved the marriage) but because she learned that Zeus raped Persephone AGAIN and decided that letting winter cover the earth and wither away all the offerings would be the best way to teach him a lesson.

[@charadreemur8884]

…I want to see that fanfic. Do you remember what it’s called/where it’s from?

[@kimititan2658]

@@charadreemur8884 *Also agrees on seeing the fanfic*

[@dtanatanoshugotenshi9347]

yooo is it on ao3?

[@smily9021]

I'm also interested on the fanfic 👁️👁️

[@IHEARTCALYPSO444EVA]

i would like to read the fanfic too👀

[@myconfusedmerriment]

Thank you for calling out the "Demeter is always an overbearing helicopter parent" thing!! I get why it's used as a plot device, but it doesn't need to become a canon trait for every retelling. Demeter's anger is justified!! And she's a cool af goddess in her own right!!! Also, if anyone knows of a version where Demeter's sadness in winter is explored as an allegory for seasonal depression...please tell me because I want that to exist.

[@RenaDeles]

one of my favorite retellings is still a story on AO3 where the author reimagined Persephone as asexual, and she uses Hades as a way to escape suitors, using her wits to get people to stop bothering her and Hades goes with it cuz he doesn't mind and just like somebody to talk to. Edit: it's Kore by oneiriad

[@yesthatmousyiris4887]

Omg Persephone as ace HELL YAS! (Don't mind me I'm aroace lol)

[@animeotaku307]

There’s also “The Return of Happiness” by knightinbrightfeathers, which also has Demeter in on the relationship and approving (Persephone is ace, but not aro).

[@dulaman]

Embarrassing.

[@Giuggiulu.]

Personally I absolutely love the interpretation of Hades and Persephone's story as a commentary (and a sort of therapeutic narrative) on the grief that mothers experienced at the hands of their husbands and other men that got to decide when and how their daughters got taken away from them. That's why I actually hate the portrayal of Demeter as an overbearing mother, she is a representation of what actual women went through and an example of how not even power and status will protect you as a woman from the violence of men of your same status.

[@linseyspolidoro5122]

I was raised as an eclectic pagan and have recently started leaning more towards the reconstructionist side. I have always been fascinated with Persephone. I just started reading _Finding Persephone: women’s rituals in the ancient Mediterranean._ While it is a little on the academic side, it has been super interesting since a lot of the more domestic aspects of worship haven’t often been recorded since they were seen as inherently scandalous.

[@numanumantis5462]

That’s very interesting! Who is the author?

[@evelinaxxo9593]

Now I want to find this book and read it, thank you

[@linseyspolidoro5122]

@@numanumantis5462 it’s a compilation of essays and has a bunch of footnotes but it was edited by Maryline Parca and Angeliki Tzanetou. The cover has a pomegranate with red text on a black background for the title. Hope that helps.

[@isabellp.5730]

How did you like the book? I've been waffling on purchasing it for a while now, but it's kind of a lot to spend without seeing many reviews.

[@Nightman221k]

I’m SO happy that you mentioned Class of the Titans. It’s my favorite Hades and Persephone depiction cause it’s unconventional. Hades is the meek and posh and Persephone has the princess/nurturing side but also has a little temper to her. And Hades having a posh dandy accent and being proud of his decorating and softer hobbies and calling Cerberus his puppy is adorable. It’s just so much better to me than having Hades being a goth bad boy and Persephone being the wilting flower.

[@KatiCleo]

As a little Greek nerd, I grew up surrounded by all these myths as a child. I really love your analysis and positioning of the three main characters of this story. Now towards Demeter the hysteric/overprotective/helicopter parent I'd like to offer another myth about her that isn't much talked about. It is the myth of what Demeter does while the Earth is covered in ice as she waits for Zeus to concede. She disguises herself as an old woman and poses as *insert word for ancient greek version of nanny here* to a noble family, where she starts raising their kid, she then proceeds to decide that since she misses her daughter, she is going to turn this kid into an immortal and have a kind of replacement-god-child, and holds it over the fire in a ritual that is implied to end with killing it (which is part of the process to becoming a god), until the mother comes in, freaks out on her and chases her out. As a child this myth really freaked me out I remember and Idk perhaps this was a myth that circulated as a cautionary tale, but it actually made the modern interpretation of Demeter as this overprotective and anxious parent very realistic to me (probably because that story traumatized me hahaha). About the age gap in Lore Olympus and other iterations of the myth, I honestly don't really get bothered by these sorts of elements in stories because for the most part, we are looking at stories of gods. In my head as a child and as an adult, being a god means you have no concept of time, of mortal norms and morals, of laws and of "common decency", which is why for example a lot of female goddesses in Greek mythology imo are so powerful compared to their mortal counterparts or the real women who were in most parts of Greece at the time only marginally better than slaves. I do have to say I really appreciate the foresight of my age though, I remember finding Zeus as this cool Chad Alpha dude as a kid in these stories (probably because greek storybooks never used the word rape of course and as a kid I didn't get subtext or the complexities of such relationships, though I did think he was an asshole for some stuff. Framing is so important honestly...)

[@sherryhassler5932]

Your story of Demeter/Nanny trying to kill a child to make her immortal is very interesting. I've never heard that one before. It reminds me of the story of Abraham nearly sacrificing his son Isaac, on the demand of his god. I know they are not the same, but stories remind me of other stories and it tickles my brain. Thank you for that little bit of story.

[@grimreapergal]

Eh, I see your point BUT, you’re looking at it from a literal view and ignoring the historical context and societal norm of Ancient Greece that the story is supposed to mirror. Here’s a quote explaining: “Demeter was upset because Persephone's abduction to her felt like her daughter was in a sense "passing away". That is why she grieved so much. In Ancient Greece, when daughters were married off using the kidnap ritual, mothers often never saw them again. Demeter was not allowed to enter the gates of the underworld or “death”, so to her, it was as if Persephone had died and that she would never see her again. The story of Persephone's abduction was symbolism for this type of situation that Mediterranean mothers went through during the ancient times. Newer versions of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter where Demeter is portrayed as more of a villain role are not to be taken as fact. They are an author's interpretation of very old writing.” By this point of the story- the story for Demeter wasnt “Persephone is missing” it was “Persephone is dead.” It was a finalized thought now that she was never gonna see her again. So I wouldn’t say it was an overbearing mom response, it was a grieving response as any mother is gonna grieve for their kid,, why it was weird? Because it’s Greek mythology and she’s a goddess. Also the kidnap ritual of marriage that was commonly practiced in Ancient Greece, was probably fucking terrifying hence Persephone being joyful seeing her mother again when they are reunited. There really aren’t indications in the original story that she resented her mother… like at all. Demeter also is shown (in the version of the story where she’s the one who kills Minthe instead) to have major pride over her daughter’s underworld role and marriage to Hades hence her getting angry when Minthe insults it. So yeah she was definitely terrified because her daughter marrying “death” meant she’d never see her again. See the symbolism? But now with the pomegranate seeds half eaten. Life can blossom over and over again. And we have seasons. Just like how mothers can always be visited by their daughters today (but that wasn’t the case in Ancient Greece. A mother can only dream). It really was a women’s justice story and a comfort story. And mother’s found comfort in it. Reducing her justifiable motherly grieving response to “overbearing” can come across as misogynistic. That’s why people are so defensive over her role in this myth. Especially knowing that Persephone did cry on numerous occasions in the story. You can turn the story into whatever for modern day drama etc, but this is still initially, a story about a mother grieving over her “dead” child.

[@queendsheena1]

As a reader and writer of retellings, it's always intriguing to see what the next iteration of these old/ageless stories and myths will entail. Been binging your videos, knowledge is power.

[@tinytimm5905]

oohhh you might love the webtoon kaleidoscope it’s a retelling of dante’s inferno

[@grammaemi7504]

Thank you for talking about Lore Olympus! I was in an emotionally abusive and sexually coercive relationship when I was 15 and it wasn't until this webtoon that I saw SA assault represented in the way that it happened to me. I think retelling the story of Persephone is important in modern day times as we understand more about SA and the power that women have in themselves. Now you just have to mention all the trashy YA novels I definitely didn't (I did...) read about teenage versions of Persephone and Hades. Love your work!

[@ladygrey4113]

I think lore falls into the trashy ya category. I get people saw themselves in Persephone but man does the author drop the balls in multiple occasions in a way it felt more like “trauma! Character development time!”

[@chrystianaw8256]

@@ladygrey4113 no

[@chrystianaw8256]

@@ladygrey4113 it's not trashy

[@idontknowanymore9966]

@@ladygrey4113 i agree that it feels like just trashy ya, this webtoon has also some weird things with the age gap (Hades is clearly way more mature than Persephone and their power imbalance seems clear) and all that, it made me really uncomfortable, and it feels like the character simply cannot develop without having some sort of horrible thing happen to them.

[@shizhixv5856]

@@idontknowanymore9966I agree.Lore Olympus is kinda...superficial.

[@lyannarhodes5205]

Madeline Miller, queen of modern Greek reimaginings (see: Song of Achilles & Circe) has just recently announced she's currently writing a Persephone retelling novel. NOT a Hades & Persephone story (so many readers immediately assumed it was gonna be a romance book following them) but SOLELY a Persephone story. Based on the nuance and beauty of character Miller's done with Circe, I CANNOT wait for this book. This will quite literally be the death of me

[@amiera1233]

That's SO exciting!!

[@shizhixv5856]

OMG

[@zoeapostolidou3964]

Actually, as a Greek I can tell you that Madeline Miller does not create respectful portrayals and forces modern US understandings on them. For instance, she has a habit of adding r*pe and misogyny in her retellings even when the ancient sources don't mention them. She had Kirke be SA'ed and turned her into a sadist. She constantly makes demeaning comments about the Gods and our beloved heroes which our culture has been based upon for millenia, and she severely dislikes healthy/loving female relationships, to name a few of her faults. So please, don't call her the "Queen" of anything, much less Greek mythology retellings. Also, so many Greeks have been dreading this book ever since it was announced because we all know what will happen in it and what will follow, seeing as people use her as a source. I'm actually calling it now. Demeter will be a terrible mother. Just terrible. She will use the Orphic tradition and have Zeus assault Persephone before and after her marriage to Hades (because hey, free drama and victimisation) and all in all, she will turn her into a lesser image of what she was for ancient Greeks just to have her represent Miller's beliefs. Also, I seriously doubt cultural context will be added as Miller has no idea on how to either understand or portray it, as she's shown.

[@ven_nom8636]

i had no idea, she writes so beautifully, im excited!

[@shizhixv5856]

@@zoeapostolidou3964 I totally agree with you. She wrote them as modern Americans, not gods. And I felt her book is kinda harmful to the children, I mean those harm&hate plots. I read her book when I was 15 and I felt quite bad after finished my reading.

[@ortusleo7367]

I love that a myth from literally thousands of years ago is still undergoing a transformation. Even though (the majority of) people don't believe in most ancient gods anymore, there is a cultural fascination in interpreting and reinterpreting their stories to fit modern culture.

[@zoeapostolidou3964]

Hey, It's not a matter of anyone believing in the Gods, nowadays. The myths are part of Hellenic culture, as they have always been, and consequently belong to the Greek people, regardless of what deity we pray to. As part of Hellenic culture, the myths cannot be "altered" and they cannot "evolve" to "fit" modern culture unless that culture is Greek culture and the "evolution" has been done by Greeks. And, I'm sorry to say, but we haven't touched the myths in 2000 years. It is actually an incredibly entitled pov to think that any foreigner has authority and can claim ownership of the myths of a culture so that they can even claim to "evolve" or "change" them to fit their cultures and ideals. Greek culture isn't "free for all" just because it's popular.

[@m3rrys0ngstr3ss]

Hearing that bit of Halsey at the beginning made me grin. That point about Demeter is important, and even if LO was still having her be a bit shrewish, she has damn good reason to be scared about Persephone's safety, given her possible fertility status.

[@djadelaney]

My mom had me when she was 19 and not really in a place to parent, and I lived with her parents a lot of the time, and she would read me a version of the Persephone story that focused most heavily on Demeter's longing to be reunited with her daughter, and so pomegranates are a symbol for us

[@KaiInMotion]

Because fanfiction and Wattpad have taught me that if a man kidnaps me he's my soulmate by default

[@mommabear5297]

I think one element that makes this particular myth so fascinating for modern retellings is that for those of us who do enjoy studying the classical lore there are so many different versions of everything else and yet this story has the least variation I've found despite the fact that it contains the most subtilty. Even having a name like 'The Rape of Persephone' if you apply knowledge of the era, culture, writing style, etc the story is nowhere near as black and white as it seems in terms of agency, consent, respect, right, wrong, love, need, etc. The commonly known bits are actually only a tiny piece of the story.

[@mariedit9935]

In "Destripando la historia" (on KZbin) Hades version of the story is that Demeter is an evil mother in law and controlling to Persephone. Then later Demeter's version comes out and you see Hades as the person who took the one she had a good relationship with, and since Demeter was raped by Zeus and Poseidon her depression when Hades took Persephone is 100% understandable.

[@soph1.1]

Just one thing I had to get out of my system, we always say Persephone is a spring goddess but she actually isn’t…. She doesn’t create spring, she just causes it. Demeter creates spring when Persephone come back, it would be more accurate to call Persephone the Herald of spring rather than the goddess of spring. Her only confirmed position is as queen of the underworld, making her more of a goddess of the underworld than a goddess of spring. (If anyone here knows more than me and I messed something up please feel free to correct me)

[@Blueeyesthewarrior]

This is very true. Persephone has absolutely no power outside of the underworld. I think that in and of itself it’s interesting. Consider that the Mycenaean version features, then god of the underworld, Poseidon as her father, it is possible that in being brought to the underworld, Persephone is awakening her true power as a goddess.

[@harayaalirak4040]

if i remember right, wasnt there also multiple goddesses of spring in greek myths? So for persephone, becoming queen of the underworld would expand her domain (like how there are multiple goddesses of marriage and childbirth, though Hera is most commonly attributed to those titles)

[@zoeapostolidou3964]

@@Blueeyesthewarrior that isn't correct. Persephone was a Goddess of Spring Grownth and yes, she had powers outside of the Underworld as she was a dual deity. If she offered nothing to the world above, then she would not have been worshipped alongside Demeter. Also, we do not know if the early version of Poseidon was the father of Preswa (Early form of Persephone).

[@coltonwilliams4153]

I’ve recently started thinking that maybe she’s the goddess of the cycle of life and death itself. It would explain Hades’ reaction to her. One of the only gods who didn’t cause any kind of drama suddenly kidnaps a goddess to make his wife? Skeptical. Unless he felt that they had similar natures.

[@j1430]

@@coltonwilliams4153she is, thats not even a theory thats how she was worshipped. im sick of modern interpretations showcasing persephone as purely spring/floral when her role as the goddess of spring’s growth was about the cycle of rebirth and death and the connection between it. through seasonal transformation and the duality of it, because agricultural deities and chthonic deities were always related and involved with death in some form. its the same with the scythe which is used for harvest/agriculture/crops, but also the symbol of death. persephone has domain and rulership in both realms.

[@laexploradoraaaXD]

I literally just bought tickets for Hadestown so I'm cracking up.

[@laexploradoraaaXD]

You've sold me on the Guardians game. Gonna watch all the cut scenes

[@Sairagna]

I think it would be reasonable to believe that the Greeks had knowledge of other older cultural myths about Persephone being a Cathonic God so I kind of interpret Hades kidnapping of her taking her back to where she belongs. I definitely interpret Demeter's behaviour as less hysterical dragon mom and more general parental anxiety about your child growing up. She was probably not asked because everyone other god knew she would never consent, no matter the person/circumstances.

[@callanightshade8079]

"Anubis ain't doing this" is the best line I've ever heard lol. I love ancient Egyptian mythology (and their history in general) ❤️

[@user-gl6fv2tw1y]

Thanks for defending Demeter. She was just a caring mother who wanted to protect her daughter from her uncle. And the fact that Persephone is the result of assault may have also played a part

[@moondivine2288]

I mean I Greek mythology there’s a lot of incest between the gods. I highly doubt that Demeter would care that Hades is her brother and Persephone’s uncle. I wouldn’t call Demeter a 100% innocent. A mom shouldn’t stop her daughter from living her life. But I do feel bad for her because in those times women had no voice. Zeus arranged Persephone to get married without consulting Demeter.

[@idontknowanymore9966]

I feel like she didn’t care at all about the uncle part, more about the kidnapping part because gods all were somehow related, being family back than wasn’t that big of a deal breaker as it is nowadays (hell, zeus and hera are SIBLINGS). if hades had talked with demeter instead about the whole marriage thing, i feel like she wouldn’t say no because he’s her uncle, ya know? maybe, she would’ve been fine with it, the whole taking the kid without him or zeus saying ANYTHING to her was the problem

[@sonofcronos7831]

Persephone was not born of assault. Demeter was Zeus fourth wife, even before Hera, and she conceived Persephone that way. Their union is the standard sky father/mother earth union that exists in most of mythologies (and in greece too before that, with Ouranos and Gaia, and Cronus and Rheia).

[@sonofcronos7831]

​@@moondivine2288she did not stop anything. There is literaly 0 stories or sources of the ancient times of her controling her daughter. If Persephone wanted o marry someone she would let it. If you are a mother then your daughter vanishes what would you do? That is the point, not that she was controlling her because that is literaly based on nothing.

[@moondivine2288]

@@sonofcronos7831 the thing with Ancient Greek myth is that there are many versions. Mostly because they weren’t written down. In most of the versions I seen Demeter hides her daughter Persephone because she doesn’t want her getting married. When Hades falls for Persephone and talks to Zeus about it he plots that Hades should kidnap her because Demeter wouldn’t approve. I remember seeing this and thinking, if Demeter only let Persephone pick her husband she wouldn’t put her in a position where Persephone gets kidnapped and scared. I do try to look at it from both sides, I know how terrible it is for being a woman back then. Zeus married her daughter off without consulting her. I don’t blame her reactions but, at the same time no one asked Persephone what she wanted.

[@Meh4232]

'the snake is a misogynist' my new favorite quote

[@asteri8299]

17:54 : Correction- Zeus and Poseidon. Apollo is depicted in the myths as having a very unlucky love life, and as a result be very... overbearing with his romantic feelings with some of the men and women he pursues, however he does not have a canonical history of sexual violence. Just being really bad at reading other people, and his closest ascribed affair to violence was the story of Daphne- who scorned his advances, and turned into a laurel tree when he pursued her to persuade her. In the canon, he never physically harmed her in any way or emotionally abused her. Though the way women where especially treated at the time, her reaction was still justified. Aside from Daphne, all of his failed affairs lacked the violence the other gods' have. All of his successful affairs where reciprocated. Generally, the Olympians where regarded in anxious honor, including Persephone, with only a select few actually liked by the mortal people. Ares was the most hated and feared- and Apollo and Hades being the more well liked of the gods. I'm stating this correction because of this: women very much worshiped Apollo and held him in high regards as one of the only gods who treated the women in his life with the respect and honor that was ill-afforded. I'm sure you meant Zeus and Apollo just came to mind, it happens. But I don't see much correction in the comments and I, as someone who honors Apollo as one of their deities, felt the need to do so. It is important for the people who worship these deities to have their deities represented properly, especially in discussions of modern myth. If this wasn't an error please disregard this. I loved your video, you covered a lot of my gripes with fiction's depictions of Persephone. Lore Olympus did Apollo an incredible disservice, and while people writing fiction are free to make creative liberties, for mythology still revered, studied, and evolving today I feel its important to put more thought and care into how you depict the characters in people's religions. We wouldn't take Jesus and write him as a sex offender, we shouldn't do that with the gods who where explicitly depicted as very much NOT sex offenders.

[@ashcanicall5297]

🤚 I was honestly about to make the comment but you beat me to it.

[@Blueeyesthewarrior]

Well, Apollo was certainly an attempted sex offender. The reason he was so “unlucky” is that there were a lot of unwilling mortals on that list who died or turned into plants attempting to flee him.

[@MsAngelique]

Agreed. It's just as bad as claiming Hades is Satan.

[@calicojacque]

"who was to blame?" "... Zeus. It was Zeus. It's always Zeus." Feel it in my bones.

[@myconfusedmerriment]

I feel like people get kind of hung up on what is the "correct" version of this myth and that just feels limiting to me. We're talking about ancient stories with these complex archetypes; there's more than one way the story can go! The romantic part of me really likes the "opposites attract" take on the myth where Hades is just a chill guy who loves his wife. However, one of my favorite Hades & Persephone retellings was "Bone Gap" by Laura Ruby, which explored the myth from the angle where Hades was very much a villain. Persephone's such a fascinating character, a goddess of both life and death and the cycles that connect them...I will take all the Persephone retellings, all of them!!

[@di7209]

Oh my god bone gap is one of my favourite books I thought I’d hallucinated it it was so surreal. It didn’t know it was a Persephone and Hades retelling though !!!

[@myconfusedmerriment]

@@di7209 Maybe “retelling” isn’t quite the right word…but definitely “inspired by.” It’s been a few years since I read it, and it doesn’t come outright and say it, but I remember there were these subtle hints near the end where I felt like Roza’s kidnapper was meant to be Hades. But I also remember it being so subtle that it felt like an “easter egg” of sorts-the book was phenomenal even if you didn’t pick up on it. I should really read that again…

[@brookesmith6998]

I got to see Hadestown at the Kennedy Center a couple of months ago. I really enjoyed the show! I liked their version of Persephone as a self-assured individual with her own motives. It was cool to not only see Orpheus and Eurydice's relationship blossom, but also the mending of the relationship between Persephone and Hades.

[@Randoplants]

“It’s always Zeus’s fault” OMG I SAID THIS AT THE SAME TIME :D

[@Randoplants]

I always loved OSR’s video on Persephone, so I am extra glad you’re covering it!

[@lizb7271]

I for one love OSP too. On the subject of reinterpreting goddesses and writing new stories about them, Freyja is quite interesting. One would probably have to largely write out of whole cloth though.

[@FireDancingKira]

I’ve been a big fan of Lore Olympus for awhile and as a survivor myself I feel like Rachel did an incredible job depicting how complicated and messy working through it is. The way she writes drama and tragedy is incredible but I’m also grateful for the lighter chapters as well Also I’m so excited I found your channel!! I loved your perspective on the myths

[@Lilas.Duveteux]

Another part of the myth of Persephone is the idea of the protective mother. Those stories were originally told at an era where a kidnapping could be considered a legitimate wedding. The desire to have a mother powerful enough to do something about it was a fantasy held dear. She could also be a symbolic representation of the seeds waiting under snow or the maggots turning the bodies of the dead into fertile soil.

[@tristantries9211]

That point about women's realms is not entirely accurate. It was accurate for the upperclass and nobility but for the poorer classes it was not. I did a college project on fairy tales and their origins and it was surprising how many of them in their original form was empowering to women. These came from rural villages like in the French countryside where every member of the village was important for the survival of the village. Women were not relegated to only nunnery or marriage or prostitution because they HAD to do everything or they would die. They had tanneries, ran Mills , did medicine ECT ect. They were respected and valued members of their communities. Now if you wanted to argue they ran these things through marriage only I'll admit I don't remember because it was 11 years ago but I don't think it was just that. Most of our fairy tales that became very women in distress as victims only were changed when they reached the nobility because the upperclass didn't like the violent empowered women in those tales and didn't want upperclass women to get ideas.

[@gooderambles]

-Princess (Paraphrased): "There aren't many powerful Goddesses who aren't virgins or in constant fear of being assaulted." -Aphrodite: "Am I a joke to you?"

[@athena3268]

Also she was very sexually active, even while she was sleeping with Ares (after cheating on her ASSIGNED husband Hephaestus with him) with many people

[@EspeonMistress00]

Aphrodite was an asshole to other woman.

[@gooderambles]

@@EspeonMistress00 Patriarchal Misogynistic Athenians wrote the versions of the stories we have today. Blame them for her character assassination. They did the same thing to Hera, who reportedly was viewed favorably in Argos (as opposed to Athens), but their versions didn't survive. It's completely within the realm of possibility that Aphrodite was dealt a similar hand.

[@unoriginalbun8325]

No shade, just pointing this out, but she said that there aren’t any *unmarried* sexually active goddesses who aren’t also victims of abuse.

[@athena3268]

@@unoriginalbun8325 which Aphrodite wasn't

[@suvinuoska]

TBF, the older I've gotten the less interest I have in stories with obvious power differentials. This was an interesting overview, though :) Def would love to have older/more powerful Persephones in future reimaginings. Looking forward to the Vampire Diaries videos :D

[@AnisaThePunk300]

i never recognize how starved i've been of Blackness and Black culture in fandom convos until i hear a joke about persophone and demeter getting taken to the red table 😂 lol love you melina

[@PropiaRealidad]

My personal take on why: Romanticism of a bad guy turned "good", or "The Beauty and The Beast" scenario. As you said, Hades is usually seen as the "bad guy" or antagonist of some sort due to his ties to the underworld. In the myth of Persephone this is accentuated with the kidnapping, implicit rape and "trickery" with the pomegranates. Since the myth doesn't go much further than that, people assume Hades just "stablished" with her and was emaciated. They usually ignore the implicit rape since it is not mentioned, and empower Persephone by cutting ties with her overbearing mother (in most myths Demeter was indeed overbearing). Basically, the myth could be simplified into it's most pure state as "humanity's conquest over the forces of nature", with Hades being an unescapable force (death) that Persephone was able to "subdue" in some way. It's important to note Persephone is rarely, if ever, mentioned to be powerful before becoming queen of the underworld, she is not even mentioned as a goddess most of the time, making her one of the deities most similar to humans/mortals.

[@_.hybrids._1680]

I know this is a year later, but I have to correct something important. There were never rape involved in the story. The word rape or “rapus” as used in the story meant thievery or stealing. The meaning of the word we know now came around the 14th century AD, far, FAR after the hymn was written. If they wanted to have Persephone raped as we know now, they would have used the word “steprum” which does closely translate to rape as we know it today.

[@lucalopez9604]

Weirdly enough, one of my favorite interpretations of Persephone is the one found in the music videos from Destripado la Historia here in YT. Because the videos are meant to condense all this mythology in a catchy song and how Persephone in most myths is always presented alongside Hades and Demeter she doesn't appear much, but even then with just the animation he has such a fun personality, I love how in the Hades video you see a Persephone that LOVES that she's now the queen, as well as showing Demeter as a helicopter parent, but in the Demeter video we see her side of the story and its a take on her pain at losing her daughter. I would love to see more media take on those qualities, a Persephone that LOVES to be the queen of the Underworld and owns her new position, as well as a relationship with Demeter than from Persephone's point of view might appear helicopter-y but it only seems like this because of Demeter's very valid reasons to be wary of others (especially their family) and the fact that she really loves her daughter. Also, Destripando la Historia music kinda slaps.

[@godnoble]

"Spoiler alert: the villain is Zeus." JINX THANK YOU for pronouncing Hekate correctly!

[@isacami25]

OSP reference! yeeeeeeeeeeeees and also, yes. the thing with demeter is that she's upset her daughter is missing and then she's upset her daughter's father is such an asshole. i get mad when retelling paint the mother as the bad guy. she was worried about her daughter, give her a break.

[@annamote7243]

Back in like 2010 I had a pomegranate scented shampoo and ya know, shampoos always had funny names back then. It was called “long term commitment” it was one of the funniest things I’d ever seen

[@raej1891]

I love Persephone. I remember one of the first stories I read as a kid about Persephone, was when she stepped on this other woman that Hades used to be with and turned her into a mint plant because she was bragging about their relationship to Persephone's face. I like the point you made about Demeter. I remember one myth from the Orphic tradition of myths, the one about the birth of Zagerus/ Dionysis, Demeter was super concerned about Persephone's safety so she sent Persephone to live with Artemis or Athena for a bit (Idr which one, sorry I read this a long time ago >__

[@ataventurine7515]

Actually, it was the opposite….Minthe trying to seduce Hades as a married man but he turned her down before anything escalated and Persephone took notice of this, turning into a giant woman trampled her to dead….her left over become mint :)))

[@A11y_Kat]

Love the reference to Overly Sarcastic Productions’ discussion on this same topic, before their video I didn’t know just how much nuance there was to the history of this story!

[@aberrantcow]

I loved this video! You really contextualized why women connect to Persephone’s more modern journey by highlighting her agency in her journey. Love it!

[@allygetch]

I was so happy to hear Punderworld mentioned, I've loved Linda Šejić's work for a while after being introduced to it from following Stjepan's Sunstone series. Also their snippets of cross collaboration are such artist relationship goals. Wonderful video, cheers mate.

[@abbywolffe4114]

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but the best retelling I've read of this myth is Neon Gods by Katee Robert. I'm showing my hand little because it is a dark romance novel, but there's a really interesting dynamic between Hades, Persephone, and Demeter. Obviously there's a romantic angle and a mother/daughter angle, but Hades and Demeter both have political power and they have to reach a mutual agreement on Persephone's running away/kidnapping. Persephone's love for Hades skews her ability to gain the upper hand over her mother, and her love for her mother makes her consider if her relationship with Hades is worth it. Again, because it's a smut novel, Persephone's "corruption" is like, discovering she's into BDSM or something, but from a plot perspective, Persephone's exploration of her darker character traits is an extension of what _Demeter_ has taught her--to be ruthless, to play to your strengths, to make smart bargains. So the way she resolves her conflict with her mom is by saying "you need to trust that I can take care of myself, because you taught me well." Which I liked because for a mother, knowing when to back off and let your child grow is incredibly important, and Demeter placing trust in her daughter allows her to accept Hades as a political and familial ally. Persephone is also in her mid twenties so she's perfectly capable of advocating for herself. I picked up the book expecting to blow through another bad H/P smut book and came out of it with my current favorite Persephone depiction.

[@hankboog462]

Hades game in particular is interesting because a major theme throughout that game is working with the hand you were dealt and making peace with the things you can't control. Everyone gets to exercise some autonomy but ultimately has something they HAVE to be; Zagreus just can't leave the underworld, Hades just has to keep doing paperwork for the dead, Persephone was already "gifted" and that can't be undone. Their power comes in their ability to make something work with that; Zagreus finds a role in the underworld that suits him, Hades becomes more content with his family and his job, Persephone finds love and joy in this arranged marriage. Persephone's case obviously has real world baggage that the game does address and should be taken with a grain of salt, but I think she still ties really well into that theme in the way she's depicted.

[@doodle7342]

I really love the Lore Olympus Webtoon series and I love how it gives Persephone a lot more agency. I really love how she is still a kind, caring woman but still extremely powerful and capable of great acts of wrath.

[@MegaMilenche]

Apollo rape was utterly unnecessary for the story though.

[@doodle7342]

@@MegaMilenche personally I think that the way it was portrayed is very respectful and the way they show how it affects her even years later is very respectful but I can see where you are coming from

[@MegaMilenche]

@@doodle7342 My issue stems from the fact that in the original myth, Apollo never came near Persephone. He was after Dafne. It just felt like a cheap way to make him the villain when he was never one in Persephone's story. If author felt it was absolutely necessary for her to be raped in order to grow, the most logical choice would have been Hades only. But, off course, she couldn't have done that and keep them as a romantic couple.

[@Pumpkinseed-Sunfish]

This video really fills a hole in me because I myself have been consuming a lot of Hades/Persephone stories lately and I’ve been wondering why I find them so compelling. I think one of the components that I personally like so much is that I identify with Persephone growing to understand her power and self worth with her partner. While my mother is not a helicopter parent, she’s often contributed to some of my insecurities that I have personally found freedom from with my own partner.

[@wendynerd1199]

I think the reason Demeter often gets the shaft is equal parts winter and because a lot of young women can relate to feeling infantilized and "protected" well into adulthood.

[@jackcade8790]

Yeah in at least some versions the winter thing kills is *going to kill literally everything on earth*, which is why Zeus agrees to return Persephone. Even if you're sad about your daughter, killing literally everything on earth is maybe a bit of an overreaction. So you can understand from where the idea of Demeter as unreasonable might originate.

[@458pinki]

SOMEONE FINALLY TALKED ABOUT PUNDERWORLD TOO OMG. I love punderworld and lore olympus so much

[@ranniazorya]

Reading Lore Olympus made me realize that people in healthy age-gap relationships probably feel really left out of media and rarely ever get to see the unique challenges they had to face in navigating romance together. I'm glad that Lore Olympus tried to address that confusion and gave someone who's not me something that celebrated them.

[@DrMike18]

It really is frustrating, especially as a queer person. Like the queer dating pool is already small enough that it makes sense and common that a lot of age-gap relationships will exist and many of them are very healthy, but we’re so bombarded with negative images of age-gaps that even when there’s something as small as a three year gap that everyone wants to scream that younger person is being abused.

[@ranniazorya]

@@DrMike18 this is a very good point. It reminds me of an earlier video of theirs on purity culture, which mentioned how people twist fanfiction to make queer writers seem creepy and predatory. So many of our ideas about purity in online discourse are conservative attitudes disguised as 'won't someone please think about the children???' rhetoric.

[@IsisAlv]

what i always try to keep in mind about age gaps is the power dynamics and the moment in each person's life. me and my bf are 6 years apart, but we both met in college, and our lives are similar. there's a difference in life experience, but it's nice to be with someone who's more mature for a change. maybe that's why i love lore olympus so much. it's very different from another relationship i had when i was younger, with a smaller age difference, and that was remarkably worse, because the moment was wrong for me, and because i was vulnerable.

[@emma7933]

Exactly. Online I see a lot of people acting like it is the age gap itself that is abusive, not the imbalance of power it can cause in certain situations. I know a couple who have an almost fifteen year age gap. They are a perfectly healthy and normal couple. If they'd started dating when the younger one was a child or just become an adult I can see why that would have been wrong, but everyone involved was a consenting adult when they got together. I'm not sure if this is a cultural thing (I am from the UK, not America) but I've seen people claiming that a five year age gap is cause for suspicion. Context is a thing.

[@TheSlipperyNUwUdle]

@@emma7933 I’m American. My mom and stepdad are 15 years apart. They met when he was 25 and she was 40. I’m not sure if it’s a double standard and they would have a problem if my mom was the younger one, but not very many people give them shit for it. They’ve been together 15 years. I don’t personally see a problem with it as long as everyone involved was an adult when they met. Though I’m 27 now and I couldn’t imagine dating and marrying someone with three kids. Lol even if we were all around ten and older when they met.

[@kjlucky6501]

“I’d be the voice that urged Orpheus when her body was found, I’d be the choice-less hope in grief that drove him underground, I’d be the dreadful need in the devotee that made him turn around, and I’d be the immediate forgiveness in Eurydice, imagine being love by me”

[@Carlos-xh8jl]

The Wicked & Divine artistic portrayal of Persephone is definitely the best, the vibrant colors on that run are outstanding!

[@Armaggedon185]

Good stuff. I think there’s still much unexplored space Persephone can go to, and I hope to see another story with her. Perhaps about Demeter.

[@WeShallLoveOn]

I do love Lore Olympus, but I admit I dislike the age gap. I see how younger women might want to see that, but maybe because I'm older now it's harder to overlook. Hades is doing basically everything right...but I know irl that shit aint flying.

[@Q33Rwitch]

I would just like to say that in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, after being returned to her mother from the underworld Persephone tells Demeter that Hades forced her to eat the pomegranate seeds, and the seeds are described as honey-sweet twice, which is a weird way of describing them considering they are more on the sour side. Eating fruit in the ancient world often symbolises sex, and pomegranate is also accosiated with sex and fertility because in greek mythos the first pomegranate tree was planted by Aphrodite. Also in Ancient Greece marriages often before consumating their marriage brides would eat a ripe fruit - a quince, an apple or a pomegranate. The marriage between Persephone and Hades being consumated and therfore official makes a lot more sense as to why she was bound to the underworld than just eating there. And just to make things clear in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter it was definitely not consensual. And in the Hymn to Demeter there is no evidence that Persephone felt any way other that negatively about being abducted and her time in the underworld. So yes there is some evidence of sexual violence against Persephone, although not certain. edit: omfg a lore olympus fan. their depiction of sa is fucking disgusting, it only happens to make hades look good. persephone only goes to therapy because she wants to be a good gf to hades. it's also clearly obvious that its a self insert for someone with an older man/younger woman power imbalance fetish (i have a very strong feeling the author only made persephone 19 so people wouldn't say its a pedophilic relationship) and it only uses the names of greek deities because it gets you clout

[@Princess_Weekes]

Hey, I appreciate that you don't like Lore Olympus, but I also don't know why you have to be so antagonistic. I am aware it is not an accurate retelling and as a sa survivor, the nuances of it spoke to me. Also, I think putting that kind of intent onto an author just because you don't like the retelling puts a lot more malice into what can just be a different story. Anyway, I appreciate you watching and correcting. It has been awhile since I took a class on this topic in grad school and it's a reminder that it would be fun to take one that is more in depth. Thanks. x

[@lilbrit0821]

I truly believe the writers and directors of the pjo movie did not read the book. They for sure had an intern write up some spark notes, completely ignoring the book, Rick and the fan base

[@animeotaku307]

Considering that they had Persephone in the Underworld DURING THE SUMMER, they didn’t even read up on basic Greek mythology.

[@lilbrit0821]

@@animeotaku307 oh shit, never connected the facts. I was probably too distracted by them turning the goddess of spring into an Bitter BDSM loving house wife

[@barronmaxxx2991]

My favorite version of H and P is when Hecate helps Demeter search for her daughter. Hecate is goddess of magic triple form seeing in all directions with her torch and her hounds she flies with Demeter and because Hecate was beloved and feared by gods and mortals. She can protect if you leave hr some food for her dogs at a crossroads....Finally Hecate takes Demeter to the Underworld and it was there that marriage agreements were made because Demeter sees the love her daughter has for Hades and him for her.

[@aisadal2521]

Eyyy, it's wonderful seeing somebody tackle this topic, since I've been wondering the same thing myself for a while now! 🥰

[@OpheliaTerat]

I didn't really like Lore Olympus, Persephone's character just seemed too childish for my taste and it made the age gap feel weird. I liked her character design though. Characterwise I think I preferred Punderworld. I really wish that Demeter was portrayed as less of a helicopter parent type in these modern retellings, but It's kind of hard not to fall in to that trope in stories where Hades and Persephone's love is mutual. Maybe in these retellings it'd help if the writer showed a likeable side to her. Like showing how much she genuinely cares for her daughter and fears for her safety. Maybe even keep the other gods' original creepiness, giving her a reason to be distrustful of him.

[@DragonTamerRi]

From the moment I first heard about Hades “tricking” Persephone with pomegranate seeds I knew the story was preserved in a way that appeased Demeter. Zeus is the villain in this story and I paused the video to go hit the like button as soon as you said that. Demeter’s rage and terror at having her daughter taken with no warning is entirely justified, especially when you consider the men in her family. Anyway the legend wants me to believe the goddess of Spring and the daughter of Mother Nature herself didn’t know eating the seeds would bind her to the world of the dead. She probably grew the tree herself! I certainly can’t find any references to plants of any kind in Hades before she was down there. I prefer to believe when it was time to return to her mother she suspected Demeter might never want her to return and was all “This is the best husband and seat of power I’m going to get in this family. Babe, bring me my pomegranate. I also believe the pomegranate in the context of the story to be a symbol for how her love for hades grew against all odds and that the fruit symbolizes a happy and heartfelt reunion between the two as pomegranate season starts around October right when Persephone would return to her husband and her throne. To be fair I am a hopeless romantic and Hades and Persephone are Greek mythology OTP.

[@cheri31]

Okay, I have to respectfully disagree because I hated how romanticized the myth has become. Myths all are based in history. There is historical precedence for all myths and they're supposed to reflect the values and instances of the culture at the time. For the longest time, women were married against their will to more powerful and influential men on their father's blessings without the consent of their mothers (which we see in Persephone's story). I hate hate hate the retelling that she went willingly because its completely disrespectful to the real women --no, GIRLS--who were forced into marriages against their will. Persephone is, by all means, a highly feminist myth because I truly believe it was one of the only made/told by a woman. It's not telling girls to "just do what you're" which a lot of stories did (i.e. Narcissus -- "don't reject someone or you will be cursed" was a warning to young men who thought about rejecting their older "teachers"). It painted Hades' behavior in a negative light. It wasn't a happy ending and I liked that. I like that the harmful practices against young women wasn't being glorified.

[@eaterbattery]

@Cheri Sua Pal. It's a story. Stories change with time. Yes, ancient Greece made it a warning for young girls about the whole non-existing consent that was common, but nawadays it's really uncommon. At least, in Europe, the continent in wich the story was written. Nowadays, to make a feminist story, you have to tell young girls that they can be whatever they want, that nobody can decide for them. Wich actually really sounds like the OG story... Except it put Demeter as the "bad guy" (she 's just an protective mother, not really bad, but yk what I mean) because she' s forcing Persephone to do as she says.

[@Lobboi]

@@cheri31 what are you talking about the dude your replying to didn't say that she came willingly but that she chose to eat the pomegranate seeds willingly and also in the myth it goes to great lengths to show that zues was the one in the wrong.

[@coltonwilliams4153]

@@cheri31 What are you talking about with Narcissus? The story about the man who willfully and gleefully broke so many hearts that it caught the attention of the goddess of vengeance herself, prompting her to punish him by having him starve himself to death because he was so busy looking at his reflection? Where does his teachers come into that? 🤨

[@cryptidcore4662]

@@cheri31 while myths have historical precedence that shaped them, they are also archetypal stories which will naturally change as people, contexts, and cultures change too. myths are their own language and will never be perfectly transliterated from one generation of storytellers to the next, but that doesn't have to diminish the etymology of the ideas explored!

[@naolucillerandom5280]

I'm in the comments answering the title before watching the video! I think it's because there are so many ways to interpret the original tale. It can be a tragic tale of a mother loosing her child to a monster, it can be a romantic story of two very different people finding true love in each other. Mom can be heartwarmingly caring, or a narcissistic jerk, the girl can be innocent and fragile, or determined and independant, the guy can be just an akward good guy, or he can start (even stay) as a villain-like character. And any in betweens and combinations of these are posible, so when you add a setting and context, it makes for a completely different feel of the story every time.

[@lovetherain3x3]

Overly sarcastic productions for the win! 👍🏽 Love those guys

[@krmillustrations512]

I know this is an older vid but I hope you see this, a comment on your last minutes about topic choices-- It's okay if your topics are the same as your peers. You have your own thoughts to share, you have your own memories of experiencing the content that we want to hear about. Don't ever, ever let yourself be turned off of a topic you love just because someone else did it. From the standpoint a viewer, I watch so many videos while I'm working. I love these for something in the background. I will 1000000% watch more than one video on the same topic. Chances are pretty high I'll watch 10. Create away with passion, we appreciate the blood, sweat and tears you put into your work!

[@banrions]

love this! i've always been really fascinated and latched onto persephone since i was a teenager. reccently, i read two different sapphic retellings of the seph/hades myth and found them both really interesting in very different ways. one leaned into the abduction/rape aspect of it and one didn't, and they both had some interesting interpretations of demeter, too. (the dark wife by sarah diemer, and captive in the underworld by lianyu tan, if anyone was wondering).

[@Katie_eeeeee]

"If you turn around, Bright Eyes..." 💀

[@pagodrink]

Also somebody needs Hera and Ganymede to team up and dump Zeus body in a riverbank, cause those two have it rough.

[@siyabongamotsuenyane]

Beautifully written video. I love every section. You answer questions before I even ask them. So sharp. Thank you for an awesome essay.

[@ruplayinggame3080]

I loved that you mentioned the idea of women escaping into marriage in the past, cause I just read a GREAT historical romance, called Portrait of a Scotsman, that is very overtly inspired by Persephone and Hades. And the heroine, a suffragette actually starts the novel while painting a picture of a classical theme - the kidnapping of Persephone. She gets tricked into marriage by this guy who made a lot of money doing sort of mild criminal *underworld* things. But the book is great because, even if Hattie is attracted to this guy, she still feels trapped by the marriage and her station as a woman in the 1880s and the plot takes that quite seriously. It's really good, I recommend it wholeheartedly!

[@natalief9654]

The best Persephone x Hades dynamic is Persephone being a badass Queen of Hell and Hades drinking respect woman and loving his wife juice

[@alicelima2320]

Persephone is not Despoina, they are half siblings. Despoina was born from Demeter and Poseidon, and so did her sibling Arion (who's a horse). Persephone, on the other hand, is the child of Demeter and Zeus. Kore and Despoina didn't merged on later myths and became Pesephone, it's pretty clear on other myths that she is *only* Kore. Despoina, Kore, Demeter and Artemis were all worshipped alongside each other by the cult of Eleusinian Mysteries.

[@brandyloutherback9288]

Greek Mythology summed up: Zeus always ruins everything!

[@ranniazorya]

Also, the characterization of Demeter as a helicopter parent spoke to me so much because of my own experiences. When you have an abusive parent, you want so much for someone as or more powerful than your abuser to come in and just remove you from the situation, to make you feel like you can be loved, despite what you parent told you your entire life. That's one reason I love Gothic couples: the girl's femininity and softness and hopefulness (the exact things she's considered weak and stupid for) are elevated and praised. These traits start her on her journey, becoming her power instead of her vulnerability. Initially, it puts her on the margin, where she meets the monster, both of them able to understand each other because they're both considered subhuman and wild and primitive. She brings her ability to love and he brings her power and lays it at her feet. I really like that about Hades and Persephone, the monster and the girl angle. You have two different forms of strength meeting.

[@IsisAlv]

i really saw me and my mom in the relationship between them in Lore Olympus. it's a complicated emotion, to love your parents so much and still feel overwhelmed by them. most media portrayals of abusive relationships don't show that much nuance.

[@randomthoughts0829]

Thank you for admitting you have mommy issues and can't bear to see an older woman in charge of her own story saving her daughter. Now project that somewhere else other than an already disrespected goddess who was NEVER a helicopter parent and only wanted her daughter bakc

[@EspeonMistress00]

@@randomthoughts0829 I hate to break it to you but Demeter in Lore Olympus is a classic example of a helicopter heck even a controlling parent.

[@randomthoughts0829]

@@EspeonMistress00 ACTUALLY shes probably the most loving mother in the show. Every example of her "helicopter parenting" has been told to us by other people but honestly, she's just your average overprotective parent. She sends Kore money, encouraged her to do her studies and prepare her for the world, she wanted persephone to run the barley company as an EQUAL. She hid persephone in the mortal realm but considering EVERYTHING DEMETER FEARED CAME TRUE, her fears were proven right. The only dumb thing demeter did was hide the whole fertility goddess thing from persephone instead of letting her harness it. Y'all just hate women and it SHOWS

[@chrystianaw8256]

@@randomthoughts0829 🙄

[@FaithOriginalisme]

yaaas for the OSP shoutout. Been binging all your videos

[@AlvarM]

This was an amazing deep dive and I'm all here for it. I hate when media showing Hades decides to hide Persephone. I found a couple of new things to seek my theet into thanks to you.

[@calebstephens601]

The OSP shout out earned a like immediately!

[@Rheaheart128]

I love the way that you explained this. It shows all sides, not just making one person the villain. And you talk about the different translations, different mythos, etc. Love it and your energy.. and your shirt! 😆

[@evangoodwin7471]

When you said “Thanatos…” with the maxed out hearts I felt that

[@salamiander]

this question has been simmering in my head for years and i never managed to articulate it- thank you for making this video and giving such an interesting exposition

[@piplupz1586]

OSP May be the best channel on KZbin. It balances education and entertainment to the perfect degree for me.

[@cammiedavis9435]

I think the main thing about Demeter becoming a Helicopter parent is usually a reflection of the author's own issues with their own mother. It's a byproduct of the first thing you learn to do. Putting your feelings into words and many authors have a motto, "write what you know" which means they reflect their own parental issues into their work, especially in retellings of Hades and Persephone. Not to mention, Persephone did make a choice. Depending on the interpretation. She WANTED to stay in the Underworld and the only way she could come back was by eating the pomegranate. In that case, Demeter is ignoring Persephone's choice to be an underworld deity and forcing Persephone to come back to serve her. After all, Kore is a minor goddess compared to her mother. In the Underworld, she is considered Hade's equal. That's probably where the controlling mother dynamic comes in. But it more broadly has something to do with the unconscious hatred of winter the writers probably have. In the original story, unlike the other Greek myths, the punishment of causing winter doesn't actually teach the Gods or the Humans a lesson on what to do or not to do. (Which makes sense since you cant Stop Winter from coming) Even when Demeter gets her wish, she doesn't get to keep her child and the gods never stop abducting maidens. They just say, "you can have her for a few months just make sure you don't make a new ice age while she's gone ok." You know who winter affects the most. Humans. What did the humans do to deserve this? nothing. So if we live in an age where we don't believe in the gods punishing us for even the slightest disrespect, it's only natural we turn the person who creates something most of humanity strongly dislikes into something of an antagonist.

[@dcowdude]

got kinda baited by WicDiv persephone in the thumbnail and was really hoping you’d touch on her more 😭 WicDiv is my favorite comic series of all time so I was really hoping you’d talk about her. great video!

[@Mathue360]

This was a very insightful way to look at the Persephone/Hades relationship. I didn't realize just how many women remained this story due to the history by giving her freedom

[@xTenshiko]

REALLY excited for your series on Bonnie next year! I'm glad you didn't talk yourself out of it - your voice and perspective is always wanted.