Why were Hiroshima and Nagasaki selected? -

[@WorldWarTwo]

This question comes from apexspr10, thank you for the question.

[@enoughrope1638]

Might mention that Nagasaki was one of the imperial Japanese navies largest naval yards employing tens of thousands of military workers, and Hiroshima was the location of a Japanese division, major munitions factories, and a massive arsenal... they considered a hell of a lot more than the firebombs, media coverage, and cultural importance.

[@DreadnoughtTheWolf]

I heard that if the war in Europe continued longer than the targets would be Dresden and Leipzig. Is there anything true about this?

[@rocko7711]

❤

[@abitofeverything343]

How publicised were the nukes in wwii? Like, was that something that the us made a big thing to the public about or was it completely secret. Also how did news of the bombing first get out? Was it an announcement by the US or accounts made from Japan?

[@antonibertolacci7030]

EVIL!

[@anthonylowe921]

Random note: a man named Tetsuya Fujita was living in Kokura at the time and would've almost certainly died if the city had been successfully targeted. He became fascinated with the weather patterns caused by the blast, eventually moved to America to study weather, and invented the "Fujita scale," which we still use today to categorize the intensity of tornadoes. (With F5 being the strongest.)

[@TylerD288]

Wow! Cool fact!

[@thelizard556]

Well we NOW use a better version of that scale which is why they now have an E before the F as in EF.

[@johndouglas4375]

@@thelizard556the EF scale is still based off his work. The only reason it exists is because of the mile wide tornado in Oklahoma, that was closer to the theoretical limit of the F5 scale.

[@kasvos9292]

Fujita 5?

[@usaturnuranus]

I still have a very old, yellowed copy of our local paper that was printed not long after Dr. Fujita visited our home town following the "super outbreak" on the night of April 3 - 4, 1974. I was 16 years old, our church youth group had gone out to do volunteer cleanup work in the aftermath. The difference between severe weather forecasting then compared to today owes a great deal to his research during that tour. We saw things that were unimaginable during that cleanup, and came to realize that a great many of the old, barren, stand alone chimneys and brick foundations all around the county weren't from houses or barns burning down, but from massive tornadic storms from days gone by. Sobering experience.

[@Mate-vg2ft]

The fact Kokura wasn’t bombed due to the smoke also spawned the phrase “Kokura luck”

[@crashstudi0s]

That sounds ironic, as in "yeah, we got it bad, but could have been worse... way wrose"

[@boobyslater9390]

@@crashstudi0s The term is a bit more complex than that. It's essentially that an initial moment of bad luck resulted in a good thing happening.

[@Rocketsong]

I wrote a song about that last FAWM.

[@solarnaut]

thanks. Apparently “Luck of Kokura” : "when one avoids danger without even being aware something bad was going to happen. "

[@netherman1325]

It's kinda ironic in a depressing way that kokura was spared a horrible fate due to heavy smoke covering the city from another bombing that took place in the near by city.

[@EddieEidee]

And of course everyone loves to mention how Stimson and his wife honeymooned in Kyoto too. That city was just too historically and culturally important and renowned for its beauty. Destroying it would have been more shameful than destroying other cities. They also considered dropping it on Tokyo bay as more of a harmless demonstration, but they decided the goal should be to horrify the entire world as much as possible in the hopes of preventing a nuclear war in the future (and of course they wanted to scare the USSR).

[@gauephat7760]

Stimson did not honeymoon in Kyoto. That's a misconception that popped up somewhere in the past few decades.

[@EddieEidee]

@ really?! The historians even said that in the documentaries.

[@aachoocrony5754]

To prevent newk wars in the future? You're a special kind of del***d. They were dropped to tell the Soviets to back off from the region and that the Japanese were to surrender to the US instead.

[@RedKresnik11]

Stimson just said it was a city of great historical and cultural value.

[@tomhenry897]

Bunch of BS

[@JarrodFrates]

The popular claim that Stimson spared Kyoto because he honeymooned there is almost certainly wrong. Stimson does seem to have visited once or twice, but nuclear weapons historian Dr. Alex Wellerstein has concluded after much research that Stimson honeymooned in North America and/or *maybe* Europe after his wedding in 1893, but there is no evidence at all he and his wife visited Kyoto until 1923, some 30 years later. Stimson openly claimed that bombing Kyoto could cause problems in post-war Japan because of its cultural heritage, but Dr. Wellerstein has suggested that it may also have been the only small gesture of defiance he could take against the generals running the firebombing campaign with which he strongly disagreed. Kyoto couldn't be firebombed because it was a potential atomic target, but he also ensured it couldn't be touched by atomic bombs, either.

[@efhi]

Whatever the case my thanks to Stimson for saving Kyoto

[@ares.arctic]

Even Oppenheimer got that one wrong

[@insight827]

We have the transcripts...

[@NoSaysJo]

​@@insight827 post them then kid.

[@digitaljanus]

Weirdly, this story got mislabelled to FDR himself in (Ford & Chrysler executive) Lee Iacocca's memoir, when he relates a tour of the Mitsubishi plant in Kyoto many decades after the war. I asked Wellerstein about this once on r/askhistorians and of course, it's even more nonsensical than applying it to Stimson.

[@yourgodemperorofeverything1354]

Fun fact. Thanks to close relation pre-war and during war between Japan and Poland, in Nagasaki there was mission of Polish catholic monks and church that was build in 1931. It survived intact, sheltered from blast by the side of the mountain, and monks instantly went to help victims of the bomb, qnd continued to do so. That mission and church are still.operational to this day, and there's even known holy side there visited by many Japanese and turists alike.

[@tylermiron6854]

They were praying the rosary at the same time that the bomb was dropped. The church and monks were protected by the blessed virgin Mary not from mountains. They targeted the church when dropping the bomb. Everything around the church was completely destroyed by the bomb except the church. Look up pictures of the area where the church was after the bomb was dropped.

[@goosemann2389]

​@tylermiron6854 why didn't Mary protect the hundreds of thousands of other innocent civilians killed by the bomb?

[@austingode]

Fun fact ?!? …… what a stupid saying

[@yourgodemperorofeverything1354]

@austingode E? It's interesting fun fact. Mostly becouse previously, during 198-1921 period, Japan saved many polish orphans from syberia, and later during Nagasaka bombing, Poles helped Japanese civilians. Not many people know that Poland and Japan had very close ties (including their intelligence agencies working together, polish agents using Manju passports, Japanese consuls saving polish jews, poles.spy webs hidden as parts of Japanese embassies in Third Reich, to spy on Nazis and Soviets). In Polish history, Japan in XX century was a good guy. So, it is a fun fact. It's a good saying, gives you some interesting information that can surprise you, make you learn about something.interesting, so, fun.

[@sierrabravo.]

There’s nothing fun about your horrendous fact

[@seanentzel9616]

Ironically now those two places have great significant historical and cultural meaning for all the wrong reasons

[@johndor7793]

explain

[@HollowBackGirl]

They done blew em up ​@@johndor7793

[@SolarMillUSA]

@@johndor7793……. Because everyone around the world knows the names of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

[@seanentzel9616]

It wasn't really a joke.. but I was kind of making a dark joke that one of the targets was taking off the list due to its cultural significance but now due to what happened there are these two places hold equal if not more cultural significance due to what happened there

[@scarpfish]

Unlike a lot of American cities, particularly in rust belt states, Hiroshima and Nakasaki are thriving.

[@mosin_boi]

I also heard know that there is a saying in Japan "kokura luck" meaning something very bad prevented something worse.

[@LordDIO-z4w]

Funny we have a similar proverb in german "Glück im unglück". It means luck in misfortune.

[@az8677]

According to a magazine article, the crew of the B-29 was instructed to drop the bomb with visual sight only. It just so happened cloud cover obscured Kokura so Nagasaki was the alternate.

[@sor3999]

Like Seth MacFarlane missing his flight due to a hangover which ended up being one of the planes hijacked on 9/11.

[@blarghblargh]

​@@sor3999 the name of that plane? Albert Einstein

[@MrHardfoot]

That makes me think of the guy that was supposed to go on the Dyatlov Pass expedition, but he came down with dysentery.

[@stevenslater2669]

I spent 5 weeks in Hiroshima in the late 1980s. Ford of Japan had an office there, and I was Ford Engine Engineering working with our Engine Resident engineers on a program. One of the Ford Resident engineers was quite a history buff and worked hard to learn the Japanese language. He said Hiroshima was selected as the target because it was heavily industrialized but somewhat isolated from the north end of the island by mountainous territory. He said the U.S. scientists were concerned (remember, this was the first A bomb drop in anger) that the blast could incinerate the entire island or maybe even the whole world if dropped up north over Tokyo & the blast had room to spread. So they settled on the south end of Honshu. I was in Hiroshima on the anniversary of dropping the bomb. My hotel room was directly across from the “A bomb Done”, the skeleton of the prefecture building that was used as the aiming point by Enola Gay. The area had been transformed to Peace Park with quite a few shrines. I was there on 6-August. The shrines were crowded with mourners and I stayed out of the park for a few days.

[@lup1up]

Thanks for sharing ur storing, geniunely

[@sharpshooter13ify]

What’s more the bombing of Nagasaki was as close to botched as one could get with a nuke, by that I mean when the bomber got over the city low cloud cover meant they dropped the bomb off target in a valley, meaning that as ridiculous as it sounds the attack on Nagasaki could have been more deadly

[@petergray2712]

They were also running out of fuel, and they couldn't loiter until the clouds cleared. But while they bombed the valley, the radiant energy of the explosion set off a large forest fire that could have done immense damage if the area they bombed was more heavily populated.

[@alanmcentee9457]

Nagasaki is surrounded by mountains. It was chosen hoping that the bomb blast would be contained and amplified by the bowl shape. Also, there was a Naval base in Nagasaki that was still operational. There were several ships that were operational even if they had no fuel in the harbor.

[@shaider1982]

Kyoto, after all, was the old capital of Japan.

[@LifeWulf]

@@mpgodjr Imperial capital, specifically. And Tokyo is Eastern Imperial capital.

[@AngPur]

Also where the Emperor was no? Might be impossible to get surrender without him

[@giovannilloretsorribas2836]

​@@AngPur the emperor moved from Kyoto to Tokyo during the Meijj Restoration in the 1860s

[@alanmcentee9457]

@@AngPur The Imperial Palace was avoided by American bombers on purpose. The military planners wanted a counter to the Military leadership, even if they were all on the page. American military planners believed that taking the war to the civilians, similar as they did to Germany, would weaken the country's will to resist. That is why so many cities were firebombed in Germany and Japan.

[@HeungaOh]

Technically, there was no 'formal' announcement that Kyoto is no longer a capital, so in very vague terms, Kyoto still is a capital

[@MsZeeZed]

Nagasaki was home to a large Mitsubishi shipyard and Hiroshima a large Army arsenal and district HQ did give them some military legitimacy to be on the target list. However, Japanese shipping production as a whole had collapsed by that point, which is why the small unbombed Nagasaki was a late arrival to that list.

[@alperkaanbilir1776]

Yeah, right. Except that Army arsenal in Hiroshima wasn't in the city proper and was not damaged in the bombing.

[@krankarvolund7771]

They explicitly told why they chose these cities in the target document and it was NOT for military reasons. Japan was going to capitulate after the bombs (and arguably without them), there was no reason to target anything military.

[@RedKresnik11]

@@krankarvolund7771they needed a “reason” or we would just be evil.

[@OFinn77]

​@alperkaanbilir1776 The arsenal was destroyed. They tried to get a response several times from the depot, and there was none. None of the Japanese military command wanted to believe 1 bomb could do so much damage, so they sent observers to confirm its destruction.

[@alperkaanbilir1776]

@OFinn77 "Ultimately, the crew of the Enola Gay was permitted to pick the aim point and chose the Aioi Bridge at the center of Hiroshima. More than 70,000 men, women and children were killed immediately. In a cruel irony, the munitions factories on the periphery of the city were left largely unscathed." Source: Katie McKinney et al., "Hiroshima and the Myths of Military Targets and Unconditional Surrender"

[@MikMoen]

Fascinating to think tens of thousands of lives hung on the suggestion of a single person.

[@who-nobody-never]

More interesting is they were largest centers for christianity and foreign influence that was allowed in japan, and basically wiped them out in a burst of hell fire. A lot more could probably be said about subtle reasons why certain folks decided to destroy those areas.

[@oligarchies]

​@@who-nobody-neverAre you suggesting that the predominantly protestant USA destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki because they were christian centers?

[@strickersniper7909]

Still do

[@who-nobody-never]

@@oligarchies No, they just chose them randomly for fun. And the state department was totally not flying plane loads of patents and technical information up thru anchorage to the soviet union, and mccarthy was just crazy with his list of communists that ended up actually all being accurate, but he couldn't say he got it from captured wires in finland at the time so it must have just been fake. He was a senator, but the house committee made mistakes he had nothing to do with, so we can ignore him. Hes a bad bad man. NY times didn't cover up the mass murder of christians in the 20s because of reasons, or anything else. It is all probably nothing.

[@oligarchies]

@@who-nobody-never Oh boy. We've got the christian persecution myth and a weird defense of McCarthyism rolled into one. Have a good day sir.

[@thisissparta789789]

Fun fact: Kokura and Yahata later merged into one city as Kitakyushu, along with Moji, Tobata, and Wakamatsu.

[@Das_Ungeheuer]

I knew I heard somewhere that Kitakyushu was one of the original targets (well, at least part of it was)

[@Mew_Mokuba_Akari]

I find it sad and fascinating that a man survived BOTH bombings! His home was in Hiroshima and because they were at the store his wife and son also survived. Then when he recovered he went to work in Nagasaki. He was telling his coworkers about what happened when they saw the explosion from the second. He survived and lived to his 90's.

[@Rickinsf]

Stimson told Truman that bombing Kyoto "would be to commit an atrocity for which the Japanese will never forgive us..." and reminded the president that we would have to govern the country at war's end.

[@schusterlehrling]

Actually Truman had no say in both the target selection or the order to apply the bomb. Both were already arranged by FDR, who ordered the Bomb to be used once it is operational and who put up a target committee.

[@JarrodFrates]

@@schusterlehrling That's preposterous. FDR died on April 12, 1945, and the targeting committee didn't meet to begin discussing targets for the first time until April 27. No decisions were made until May. FDR had no knowledge of the target list before he died because there was no target list before he died, therefore he couldn't have decided where to strike. And even if he had, as president, Truman had every right to change those orders. In reality, Truman only got involved with Kyoto because Stimson personally asked him to do so, as the generals were trying to ignore his attempts to spare the city. Other than that, he left decisions to the targeting committee.

[@schusterlehrling]

@JarrodFrates FDR had no idea of the target list, but ordered that a committee should determine the targets. Truman had no idea of the bomb at all when the committee first met. And he did not interfere. He let Jimmy Byrnes handle the affair. And note that Stimson countersigned the request by General Groves to apply the bomb, not Truman. Note that it was just a request, as the order to use the atomic bombs once they were operational was already given in 1944. By FDR. The first thing Truman had ordered in the matter was to stop the application of atomic bombs after Nagasaki.

[@JarrodFrates]

@@schusterlehrling Truman was briefed on the Manhattan Project by Stimson and Grove on April 25, two days before the first meeting of the targeting committee. He had every right to do what he wanted with it, including stopping it entirely if he wanted, regardless of what instructions FDR left. FDR was dead and therefore no longer president. Truman was a live president and could override anything that FDR left behind. And as I said, Truman left *almost* all targeting decisions, including sign-off, to the committee. The one time that he interceded was when Stimson appealed to him to ensure that Kyoto was removed from the list because he was afraid that Groves and the others would ignore him, which they were very much planning to do because he was a mere civilian and they regarded use of the bomb, including targeting decisions, to be exclusively in the military domain. Truman issued a direct order in July 1945 that Kyoto not be targeted, and the generals obeyed.

[@goatsplitter]

They shouldn't forgive America regardless.

[@Zilliguy]

There’s something almost cruel in the idea that your city as opposed to someone else’s was bombed simply because smoke drifted a certain way

[@yaroslavyerin9951]

Also it was a smoke of some other burning after bombing city. Saving it's neighbor by being destroyed

[@JinnaiT]

I'd be pissed

[@davedixon2068]

some would say GODS WILL, some say CHANCE

[@333_studios]

@@davedixon2068invoking gods will in this situation is a rather grotesque. History could have easily gone another way in the Cold War. “Thank the heavens that New York was torched to a crisp instead of LA!” Go preach a sermon on God’s sovereign will to a mother whose face has melted off from dna failure following radioactive fallout. In tragedies such as these it is always better to simply say, it was chance, or the folly of other men.

[@alpha_9997]

Theres something cruel about targeting civilian infrastructure with the most deadly weapon known to man.

[@davidbe3560]

apparently a lot of Catholics lived in Nagasaki. The whole thing obviously is so sad.

[@johnobeid67]

Probably a deliberate act. Anti-Catholic bias was just as bad then as it is now.

[@fuxticDOTexe]

​@@johnobeid67oh nooo poor christians, so oppressed :[

[@johnobeid67]

@@fuxticDOTexe well, yeah, they are the most persecuted religion in the world. So I guess so.

[@SecureHandle]

@@johnobeid67Why would you assume a predominantly Christian nation would target a city with a high amount of Catholics solely because the people there are catholic…

[@tomriddle8933]

​@@fuxticDOTexehave you heard of the 30 years war?

[@deuslra3088]

For those who are wondering why they didnt nuke tokyo or cities more like tokyo. They didnt nuke tokyo because it was already destroyed and they wanted to show the effect of a nuke. They couldnt show the effect on an already destroyed city

[@ZenSickness]

Never forget that we're ruled by psychopaths.

[@networknomad5600]

The nukes were based. Cope, since you apparently can’t handle the simple logic of tens of thousands sacrificed to prevent the death of tens of millions.

[@AaronCorr]

US nukes Kyoto instead, now all Kaiju movies feature radioactive yokai

[@lazylucy1583]

Hope and pray mankind has learnt about the damages caused by atomic bomb , are wise now and never use it again anywhere.🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@molliestanton2869]

Fools in DC were bandying about the use of " limited nuclear strikes" for Ukraine to inflict on Russia. By some miracle those knuckleheads haven't so far, but it is a talking point among neocon idiots like Lindsey Graham, who talks on TV interviews about it, as though it can be limited, and as though it is an option.

[@dingo1yongo]

The thought that thousands of civilians were sacrificed to make a "spectacular show" is despicable.

[@marksmith4346]

It achieved most of the objectives, saving American lives and also prevented WWIII which would have probably kicked off with the Korean conflict but the USSR and China knew the US might melt their countries so everyone engaged but only in limited measures. Was it a tragedy, absolutely. Was it necessary, no but the alternatives were worse.

[@dingo1yongo]

@marksmith4346 the japs had surrendered, the bomb was to make a show the Russians. It wasn't necessary to stop the war which the japs had lost. The fact that we are so comfortable with human beings from a far away place being slaughtered in an industrial scale is most evil

[@kenmanx1298]

What a Horrible, Dark day for all of Humanity! 😢🥺

[@General5USA]

Yeah.dark because the people were considered useless and incapable of talking care of themselves. America just helped Japan to get rid of the dreggs. That was down in Germany . Poland , and next the USA. Covid was only the start.

[@gnas3390]

It ended WWII so an entire generation would disagree with you.

[@meddlingcactus5104]

@@gnas3390 I agree with them. Japan was already willing to negotiate surrender before the bombs were droppped. Truman however wanted unconditional surrender and also wanted to scare the USSR so when he inherited the problem when FDR died he had no desire to stop the bombs from being dropped. And even after the bombs were dropped Japan STILL didn't surrender until the U.S. agreed to let the Emperor keep his position after the war (which, tragically, the U.S. was going to do anyways but the communication between the countries was all kinds of awful) There is a lot of other context and screwups from around this time that add layers to this. I definitely also agreed with the bombings from what I was taught in school (I assume you were taught the same thing in school), but funnily enough American schools teach us that the main, most important reason for dropping the bombs was to avoid a U.S. ground invasion into Japan and save upwards of a million American lives... but this reason that definitively proves the necessity of the bombs being dropped wasn't even a reason used at the time. Even in Truman's speech right after the first bomb was dropped he stated "The first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base (a lie). That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians (again, total lie, Hiroshima was targeted because it was a "CITY" of a proper size that it could be destroyed by the bomb). But that attack is only a warning of things to come. If Japan does not surrender, bombs will have to be dropped on her war industries and, unfortunately, thousands of civilian lives will be lost." Nowhere did he mention dropping the bombs as an alternative to invasion, because they weren't planning to invade. He also said "thousands", rather than the "millions" number that got made up later. It's true they had drummed up a possible invasion plan just in case, but weren't planning to use it since Japan's war faculties had been so thoroughly destroyed the U.S. could just keep doing bombing runs and blockading almost completely uninhibited. The bombs vs. invasion narrative didn't come into existence until years later when people started criticizing the use of the bombs. Phew this was a longer comment than I thought it would be. I hope I don't sound like I'm talking down to you or anything, I'm really not. I believed the same thing until a few years ago, and in general I'm just angry at how poorly history is taught in the United States.

[@jokersmith9096]

​@meddlingcactus5104 Thank you for sharing knowledge. It is a shame books like The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb and the Architecture of an American Myth by Gar Alperovitz are not read in American schools.

[@tidbit1877]

@@meddlingcactus5104 Nonsense, the war was 2-3 years from ending and the Japanese were prepared to fight for every inch of every single island. What you wrote is a convenient lie probably concocted by some modern Japanese nationalist historian that is rewriting history to their liking. The bombs definitely ended the war early, and definitely saved more than a million lives. At the time America could barely even get their bombers to Japan and back because they didn't control any islands close enough to Japan. The beef with the USSR didn't really kick off until 1950-ish five years after the war ended. The primary reason for using the nukes was to force Japan into an early surrender; and you'll notice that the first nuke did NOT work, it took two bombs in order to force the surrender. The US had to threaten to drop a bomb every week(or every day) until Japan surrendered before the Japanese finally backed down.

[@SmellyBeanBag]

The kinda morbid fact that it dropped on Nagasaki actually saved a lot more lives. As fatboy was a much more powerful bomb then the little man bomb dropped on Hiroshima. But it was dropped off centre because of cloud cover and actually went off in a valley away from the centre of town, mitigating much of the efficacy of the bomb

[@20fsj-63shoker]

“Saving lives” would have been to not drop any atomic bombs anywhere.

[@toddspangler6669]

​@@20fsj-63shokerThe estimates of not dropping the bombs and continuing the war would have had casualties in the millions on both sides. Or at least that's what we are told. However, I wish atomic and nuclear bombs had never been created. They are still a threat to all living things.

[@mcarrowtime7095]

@20fsj-63shoker No, that would probably have led to more dead people total. Unless, of course, you think that the invading American soldiers would’ve just been super duper extra careful to make sure none of their mortars, artillery, CAS, machine gun fire, submachinegun fire, grenades, or rifle rounds didn’t hit unintended targets, along with the entire rest of the Japanese military and every other military aged male in any conflict zones.

[@SmellyBeanBag]

@20fsj-63shoker i know that. I never said that it was a good thing they dropped it. The fact is that it was dropped and it was off centre, thus I said in a morbid way it saved lives. I was stating a fact. Obviously, it shouldn't have been dropped. Obviously, the war should never have been fought. It was dropped as a display of power to the soviets who had entered the war against Japan. There was evidence that Japan was about to surrender. You have twisted what im saying. More people died in one night of fire bombing of Toyko, then the atom bombs...

[@killercaos123]

“We are able to replicate the surface of our sun, but we are not able to accurately predict the weather ahead of time.”

[@zandernewson9933]

“Internationally Recognised” translated, “This will put it up the Soviet Union”

[@tomhenry897]

BS

[@NotSure-hd6sm]

Good stuff Maynard

[@robertgallagher7734]

"Killing the Rising Sun" is a good read & covers this in more detail, including the horrific battles across the south Pacific.

[@kaiserknight1217]

Amazing book.

[@100Haidyn]

Love ww2 history thanks for the content!!!!!

[@VigneshKumarelite]

Am astonished no one is contemplating what kind of a war crime this is. This is not age of empires or age of mythology games being discussed, where farmlands were destroyed virtually to conquer a settlement and even in the game the villagers were mostly spared while using powers.

[@generalzod7959]

Not a war crime.

[@heythave]

Huh, so one country bombed another country and started a war with them and then gets bombed in return is called a war crime?

[@Daniel-om4ce]

@@generalzod7959intentional targeting of civilians is the most war crime-y war crime I could think of. I understand the reasoning behind its use, but it’s still a war crime

[@chungfr]

Compared to what the Japanese army did to the rest of Asia?

[@heythave]

@@VigneshKumarelite Someone said that they were targeting massive arm depot and troop stations that were in those cities.

[@christopherwang4392]

In the alternate history novel _1945_ by Robert Conroy, there was a chapter in which President Harry Truman and his advisors discuss which Japanese city would become the next target for a third atomic bomb to support Operation Downfall, the planned U.S. invasion of Japan. Kokura was ultimately chosen as the next atomic bomb target due to being a potential transit point for Japanese reinforcements from Honshu to Kyushu.

[@Sacto1654]

Hiroshima was also picked because it was a major Imperial Japanese Army base and a major embarkation point for soldiers leaving Japan for the front lines. Kokura was originally chosen because it was a major railway hub (it was the junction of the Kagoshima Main Lineand Nippo Main Line) and there were many factories that supported that big steel plant at Yahata west of Kokura.

[@Remitonov]

tl;dr The atomic bombing had strategic importance in the planned invasion of Japan. It wasn't just to intimidate the Japanese. And given how radicals in the military nearly managed to gag the Emperor's surrender message, it's safe to say the psychological effects are gravely overestimated.

[@khuhruzhsvethmeorv8318]

​@@Remitonov tfw the fascist empire doesn't care about its people

[@meddlingcactus5104]

@@khuhruzhsvethmeorv8318 "You can't frighten them by killing poor people-- that's their day job"

[@meddlingcactus5104]

@@Remitonov I mean the U.S. had drafted up a plan to invade Japan, but that was just one plan of multiple they had. It wasn't until years later members of Truman's cabinet started saying they did the bombs to prevent a U.S. invasion. Before the bombs were dropped Japan was already defeated militarily, completely incapable of stopping air bombing raids and the U.S. blockade. The primary sticking point for Japan not giving an unconditional surrender was they wanted to keep the emperor in power (which the U.S. wanted to do anyways they just refused to let Japan know that for some reason), and they thought the Soviet Union wasn't going to invade (they were). To be clear the emperor already thought the war was clearly lost and wanted to surrender before the bombs were dropped but agreed to hold off at the behest of his cabinet until the U.S. agreed to let the Emperium remain. And then after the bombs dropped... yeah u hit the nail on the coffin... they STILL refused to surrender until the U.S. agreed to let the emperor stay in power (which again, THEY WERE GOING TO DO ANYWAYS) Sorry for the rant I'm just still nettled about how poorly I was taught history in school. Have a wonderful day.

[@sigarodifigaro]

I actually read an article from a japanese newspaper that included a testimony from a factory worker in Kokura who was ordered to burn a bunch of things which produced a lot of black smoke. Kokura was warned of the bombing before the plane reached them.

[@cubonefan3]

The smoke was from the firebombing of a nearby town….

[@Dudemon-1]

They were cities that had large military presence.

[@itzamia]

Something similar happened during the Civil War. In the summer of 1864 Union General William Sherman set Georgia on fire from Atlanta to Savannah, but because of it's beauty and historical significance, Savannah was too pretty to burn down on his march to the sea.

[@panzerkampfwagonmausbattalion]

didnt the us originally plan on using the atom bomb on berlin germany or am i mistaken with something else?

[@SephWylie-o1k]

They might have had Germany not already surrendered. It’s commonly taught that the reason the US dropped them on Japan was because Japan refused to surrender, so as a last resort they did. But the goal wasn’t to destroy Japan entirely, hence they didn’t drop it on Kyoto or Tokyo. It was to demoralise them. Even to this day the Japanese refused to use the word surrender. They never surrendered but “found the terms acceptable”

[@BHuang92]

There was some consideration but by the time the atomic bomb was ready, Germany surrendered when the Soviets took the city.

[@Hendricus56]

@@SephWylie-o1k And even if the war was still going on by then (let's assume the generals where allowed to make actually working defensive preparations in the East), Allied troops would have been in Germany itself, not to mention most cities were basically destroyed. Reducing the effectiveness you get from them

[@sqwidlord8344]

I believe the original plan was to use them against Germany but by the time the bombs were operational Germany had surrendered and basically all suitable targets had all ready be reduced to rubble

[@kongming66]

​@@Hendricus56 Japan was firebombed somewhere between 10x - 20x scaled to what the A-bombs did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so I doubt it was because of the lack of targets. The bomb was going to be dropped to scare the Soviets, which might have stopped them going any further into Germany. The Japanese reluctance to surrender probably made them a higher priority, along with the Soviets already steamrolling into Germany by the time the bomb was ready

[@StevenDykstra-u3b]

Unlike elsewhere currently, where cultural targets are an important factor for those dropping bombs.

[@brianwelch-qq3ti]

Don't forget Hiroshima had one of Japans last full divisions stationed there along with many munition stores and factories

[@ProjectThunderclaw]

As evidenced by the quotes in this video, that was not really a factor in the decision-making. They explicitly rejected the idea of going for a purely military target, instead deliberately targeting large civilian populations. Indeed, the main reason Hiroshima still had some military and industrial capacity was that the nuke targets were deliberately NOT subjected to conventional bombing in order to maximize the visual and emotional impact of the atomic bomb.

[@danieldanielson2324]

I read a few articles that Hiroshima was decided on because its topography was mainly flat and it was a city largely untouched by bombing raids. Hiroshima was also a hometown for military member’s families. So when you read about “crushing the will of the Japanese,” they meant a Japanese soldier finding out that their family being vaporized at home.

[@eileenworth7862]

And Nagasaki was predominantly Catholic.

[@SuperSafetychick]

Was Truman a Freemason?

[@redrick8900]

Not even close.

[@Livinghopefulandhonest]

“Why was Hiroshima and Nagasaki selected as prime targets for the atomic bomb?” Mate if another target was chose you’d be asking the same question for it

[@racay9082]

I have heard that they were the most Catholic cities in Japan. The same as Dressden In Germany

[@DeVo35]

And there we have it, boys and girls.

[@SuperSafetychick]

And wasn't Truman a Freemason?

[@DeVo35]

@ Yes, he was.

[@seanmduggan]

Something that I did not know so thank you for the post.

[@borninvincible]

Splitting an atom over a civilian population twice is just wild.

[@marinanjer4293]

Japan emperor's delegation approached the US leadership in June and July to surrender to avoid a Soviet ground assault. The US refused and insisted on deploying the two bombs anyway.

[@timothycarson114]

Yes that's right.

[@plebasaurues]

So they targeted civilians for clout and people are still defending it.....

[@Kalashnikov413]

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki are strategically important cities for Japanese military at that time, so not really

[@Jonas-Seiler]

yup, but I am not aware that any other warring party didn't also predominantly target civilians, except maybe, very ironically, the soviets

[@Greg-Storm]

If any other country set nukes on innocents it would be heresy. America truly is the land of hypocrisy, back then and more so now

[@MyToastyToast]

@@Kalashnikov413they explicitly stated they wanted to strike at the populace. Also, the military facilities at both locations were still intact after the bombs

[@MyToastyToast]

@ it was atrocious, but the US actually gave the green light to Japan to do so despite Korea being an ally. Read up on Teddy Roosevelt, we blessed the “colonization”

[@BogardanLord]

Love your narrator's voice❤

[@charcolew]

Not-so-fun fact: The two atomic bombs were different (one uranium, one plutonium) so the US could see which was more destructive and which was deadlier to humans.

[@charcolew]

@@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch All those tests were not conducted on human populations.

[@joelspaulding5964]

Not at all a fact- other than the two different fuels

[@charcolew]

@@joelspaulding5964 So why did they use two different types of bomb then, if not for comparison purposes? To make it more interesting?

[@robertwaid3579]

Thank you for the explanation and the reasoning behind it. To have ever had too make such choice's. Must of really messed with those official's mind's not only at that given Time of necessity? But the immense mental repercussions they had too endure later? But it must've been extremely agonizing & possibly unendurable for them later in life. IN retrospect I think 🤔 it was a choice that had too be taken too End, that Global, Conflict as humanely as possible then and there. For if it hadn't been taken at that point. Million's of more Lives would have been lost by all side's then involved. This is only 1 view point in answer too the subject. Thank you.

[@bobbydennis6729]

Korkura is by far the luckiest city on Earth. It was a backup target for Hiroshima, and the prime target when it was dropped on Nagasaki, as this video said. It dodged a nuke not once, but twice

[@badabing8884]

Terrible. I was in Hiroshima back in June and visited their peace memorials. Just so sad. 😢

[@s.f.f.f.t11]

Stimson said that Kyoto was of great cultural importance, and it's honestly very respectable that he persuaded the President to not do so. No, Stimson did not honeymoon in Kyoto; that is a myth. He did it because he recognised the impact it would have on post-war Japan, to have destroyed a place of such cultural significance and heritage.

[@mtwata]

Nah someone who was part of the worst war crime in history is not respectable whatsoever.

[@s.f.f.f.t11]

​@@mtwata You think this was the worst war crime in history? Ha. How ignorant. This was perhaps the greatest mercy in the history of war. Two bombs that would end the war. Killing a few hundred thousands to save millions more that would've died later. You severely lack any knowledge of history of knowledge if you think this to be a severe war crime. What Japan did? Those are severe war crimes. There is no denying the brutality of war, but it is obvious to anyone who knows basic history that this was a mercy. Read up on your history. It will help you, trust me.

[@khuhruzhsvethmeorv8318]

Crazy to try and fit all this into a short, the channel Shaun has an in depth breakdown of all these events and why they happened. There's also a couple of misunderstandings/omissions in this video

[@UNSC-Saratoga]

A lot of people forget that both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets. One housed a MAJOR communications and supply hub for forces in the south of Japan and the other was the headquarters of the 6th Army Group which was in command of a majority of the troops stationed on the beaches where an allied landing was likely to take place during Operation Olympic. I can’t remember which city held which but both were selected because destroying them would make an amphibious invasion much easier if Operation Olympic was followed through.

[@viswanathnarshima5572]

What ever might have been the reason, but greatest damage was done to humanity and became an example of how low we can stoop down to attain our aim.

[@WodLndCrits]

A random guy on 11:02 on the ninth of August: "NOT AGAIN--"

[@timesnewlogan2032]

His name was Tsutomu Yamaguchi.

[@jamesevans886]

Both cities had each built Japan's super battleships. Nagasaki was the alternative target as the primary had too much cloud cover.

[@Beezde3z]

Why wasn't Tokyo considered?

[@t-60studios]

It was basically non existant due to fire bombings

[@nicholasmuro1742]

Yes, it was already fire bombed in April.

[@roy6907]

1) The Tokyo Firebombing happened just a few weeks prior. Almost all of Tokyo was burned down and more people died in the raid than either Atomic Bomb. 2) The only target left in Tokyo was now the Imperial Palace, which was strictly forbidden to hit, as the U.S. correctly assumed the death of the Emperor would result in Japan never surrendering.

[@mamv80]

@@Beezde3z they needed the main culprits to sign the peace terms

[@enscroggs]

There were others who knew about the Manhattan Project but were not members of the targeting committee who objected to the targeting of cities but not for any fake "humanitarian reasons" like those of Miss Sabrina Hawk. For example, General George C. Marshall pointed to the many cities, (e.g. Tokyo and Kobe) burned to the ground by conventional firebombs that had not moved Japan to surrender. (Not having witnessed the Trinity test, Marshall found the power of the A-Bomb simply inconceivable.) Instead, he wanted the bombs saved for the invasion of Kyushu scheduled for November 1945 to use against Japanese shore defenses. Fortunately, Marshall's objections were ignored, and as a consequence, the invasion never happened.

[@philiprice7875]

and a million US troops say "thank you"

[@jacco4418]

Cultural hotspot wasnt a problem with dresden

[@BeedrillYanyan]

Hey don't cry now

[@knockrotter9372]

oh it became a hotspot alright

[@roy6907]

Two vastly different nations. Nazism existed for barely a decade and didn’t yet ingrain into what we consider German Culture. The fanatics of Nazi Germany were a concentrated few rather than in Japan which had over a thousand years of cultural influence on its people. Also an important note, this is specifically about the deployment of Atomic Bombs, a symbol more than a weapon. We had zero issue firebombing Tokyo, the real heart of Japan, which killed far more than either Atomic Bomb did.

[@Jonas-Seiler]

the soviets even tried to get that acknowledged as cultrural genocide, but the allies vehemently refused, no doub't that genocide definition would have been applicable to japan as well

[@redrick8900]

Dresden wasn't the US's call.

[@GrinderCB]

The Operations Room has a detailed video on the Hiroshima and Nagasaki A-bomb missions. The B-29 "Bock's Car" attempted its bomb run over Kokura but smoke from a firebombing raid further north plus low clouds obscured the target. So the bomber went to its secondary target of Nagasaki and had to make two passes before it could drop its bomb. Had that run been impossible, the plane would've had to drop its bomb out in the ocean before returning to base. As it turned out, the attack on Nagasaki was technically a miss in that the bomb fell long, missing its target by over a mile. As a result, much less damage and fewer casualties resulted by that bomb not hitting in the most densely populated part of the city.

[@Channel-23s]

Also iirc both locations had military targets/bases in the middle of the cities and the Japanese reaction “meh” seeing as how during the war Fire bombings were doing work on the wooden houses although the Bat bombs would’ve been more deadly than the Nukes the Tokyo fire bombings killed more than both the Nukes combined but the Nukes were more flashy in the end so people don’t bring it up really

[@oligarchies]

"Flashy" is certainly one way to describe a weapon that reduced two cities and it's people to ash in a day. The nukes were essentially warning shots, the fact that the death tolls of firebombing campaigns in their totality are even comparable to the work of 2 bombs in one day makes me doubt that the Japanese reaction was "meh". The threat of the capital being nuked was far more important than the death tolls.

[@stevekem1347]

Read 'Barefoot Gen' for a Japanese child's take on the bombing

[@Muthumalai_Tiger_Reserve_Aana]

US has the audacity to call itself the protector of peace.. after that quote..

[@davidcheung8595]

At that time and in that situation, YES.

[@nicanorbadal689]

Is the fujita scale used to measure intensity of hurricanes and typhoons as well

[@mehmetsahsert3284]

Had the chance to visit japan and i would kiss that man gor convincing truman. Kyoto is legit the most culturally magnificent city in all japanese isles. It was beautiful. And historic. I wouldnt want to live in a world without thay city. And í must say, thinking about how many kyoto like cities were destroyed throughout our history, simply gets me sad as fuck

[@robrichards1473]

I always heard Sasebo was a first target but cloud cover caused them to change

[@Stella-gm7bo]

Weren’t pamphlets warning the citizens dropped before the attack?

[@johnmorkunas6707]

This is a lot more reasonable than some of the other theories I've heard.

[@ThatManCarryingSand]

It's called a war crime.

[@corporateturtle6005]

MURICA: What's 'War Crimes'?

[@dogevoadoriii]

Don't forget japan was much worse than the US in terms of war crimes

[@seanrodgers1839]

All of the lives that could be different. I had a relationship with a girl from Fukuoka, but closer to the target area. We have a daughter. Her parents were there when the bombs went off.

[@sol-dono1235]

Yeah don't bomb Kyoto, I'm a villain not a monster type shit. People were doin some shit back then

[@davedixon2068]

its what is often called a WAR, buildings get knocked down and lots of people die, its been going on for the whole of human history

[@andrerobitaille982]

The Targeted city was to become a vast experiment on the effect of radiation on human beings. They have 2 other city that can have been used for it.

[@magustrigger9195]

They were hit because they were the two centers of Christianity in Japan though small both were the most Christian

[@Kalashnikov413]

Not the reason why they dropped the bomb on there

[@SuperSafetychick]

Was Truman a Freemason ?

[@vic5015]

And I thank Stimson. Despite not being Japanese myself, I have relatives in Kyoto. I've never met them, but I'm glad they weren't nuked.

[@ericdpeerik3928]

You forgot that they had military installations, which is what they were primarily selected for. Hindsight, they purposely chose highly populated areas, because they wanted the collateral damage, but they didn't say that out loud.

[@defrocker0569]

Thus, now you have Godzilla

[@niodium7195]

"Selection of atomic bomb targets" Nagasaki: *Panik* "Nagasaki not included in list" Nagasaki: *calm* "Nagasaki added to list" Nagasaki: *Panik*

[@mrkoalateagaming]

Man it’d grind my gears being a full melee build and having to fight a ranged boss. Cool design though

[@raviolithebest8644]

I believe Nagasaki is also of cultural importance, since that’s where I think the Europeans could access Japan during the Edo period

[@Moonstone-Redux]

It was, and is still a major port in Kyushu for the exact same reasons it was the only port accessible by people not from China, Korea, Ryukyu or Hokkaido. That also was kind of the reason it was targeted as well.

[@finnbergermann]

At 11:02 on the 9th of august over the valley like ball lightning…

[@DannyBoyYeh]

one of the worst military atrocities in history.

[@MemeDeliveries]

you should read about nanjing massacre and unit 731 before you take japans side…

[@julyper]

@@MemeDeliveriesTo recognize the fact that the US killed hundreds of thousands of civilians with the atomic bombs is not to excuse war crimes committed by the Japanese military. Both can be atrocities. Stop thinking in black and white. Civilians didn’t commit the atrocities. Should the Vietnamese have nuked New York City because of the atrocities committed by Americans in Vietnam? Should the Koreans have nuked Seattle? Should the Iraqis have nuked Portland? I could go on.

[@patricewilcox792]

😮 Interesting Info.😮😮😮

[@nisnast]

That's fucking scary, deciding which CITY, not military base or army depot, but a city full of civilians to wipe out from the map People survived by pure chance and they were never even aware of that

[@williammerkel1410]

Those cities often contained military bases, barracks, headquarters, storage of goods and munitions, military factories, plus the fact that by that point the entire population had been officially mobilized, which is why American air crews were instructed accordingly, they were officially told that there were no longer civilians in Japan.

[@ex1st.here.994]

​@@williammerkel1410But they were wrong, of course there were civilians. What kind of silly reasoning is that? Lol

[@oumajgad6805]

​@@ex1st.here.994Funny, Japan didn't had any issues slaughtering milions across half of Asia and the Pacific, but USA is evil for making them pay...

[@ex1st.here.994]

@@oumajgad6805 soldiers did that not civilians

[@aintnunya8058]

@@ex1st.here.994 Like it or not civilians are a large part of the war machine.

[@sirspuds]

Not so fun fact, my grandmother lived in the shipbuilding district of Kokura, she would’ve been a young child at that point and would have certainly not survived if the bomb had fallen. Kokura luck as they say.

[@ryanfinley3304]

The atomic bomb was America finally saying, ok I'm done with this

[@TheTrollhead]

Dont fk with the dragon in the west.. I hear it breathes noxious fire.

[@ericsonhazeltine5064]

The weather

[@vsk_ind]

The bombings killed between 150,000 and 246,000 people, most of whom were civilians; In the Philippine-American War (1899-1902), as many as 200,000 Filipino civilians died; During the Vietnam War, American soldiers killed between 300 and 500 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians, mostly women, children, and the elderly, also as part of the Vietnam War, the U.S. secretly bombed Cambodia and Laos to target North Vietnamese supply routes. Also not to forget the mass killings and relocation of the Native Indians. America does have some obsession with killing innocent people.

[@HiroshiSurigana]

Finally a sane person ❤

[@FzeroVaporeon]

Horrible behavior is not unique to America, all powerful countries have done horrible things

[@akandesaheed3835]

The bombing of Hirrosima and Nagasaki was a war crime commited by the United States.Both the allied and the axis committed horrendous war ceimes.only that the ones committed by the axis attracted world wide condemnation because of course they never won.

[@theuglypina8395]

Everyone who know history know how cruel and savage the japanese were in ww2

[@ThinkingJames]

They invaded us Filipino's

[@KimaniWaGikimah-c9t]

When He maketh inquisition for blood, He remembers them; He forgets not the cry of the humble. 9:12

[@sgt_slobber.7628]

They were Industrial towns, that’s why they were targeted!!!!!

[@Moonstone-Redux]

Common refrains talking about how unfair the use of the atomic bombs were seem to miss the point that there would be no reasonable timeline where either city would escape with minimal or no damage. This isn't 2024. The laser hadn't been invented and "precision" bombing had a circle area probable of 300m (more likely to not hit your target than do). And lest people pull out the radar guided glide bombs already in use, ships are very different from factories.

[@enoughrope1638]

@@Moonstone-Redux Not to mention something like 7000~ chinese people were dying every day the war dragged on.

[@Moonstone-Redux]

@@enoughrope1638 the counterattack to take back Malaya that would have started at the same time as Operation Downfall would have been no less devastating, not to mention the war crimes the Japanese were already committing even in relative peace time. It never happened because the atomic bombs so thoroughly devastated all hope of any sort of defense that the Japanese could muster, making the Japanese swiftly surrender and withdraw from their occupied South East Asian territories.

[@Gitsmasher]

Bless Mr Stimpson... if its Kyoto the Hatred would be run forever.

[@Onthejazz247]

It's hard to picture any of the major powers holding off a military mission due to historical or cultural significance. Is Rome the only other such example

[@ethank5059]

The Germans avoided bombing Paris during the invasion of France in part due to the historical and cultural significance of the city. As the French lost ground they opted not to defend Paris to avoid its destruction. Both major powers actually did take history/culture into account at times when making choices about where to strike or defend.

[@Ultimate_Charizard]

On the flipside, the Nazis were so incensed at the bombing of historic Lubeck, that they started specifically targeting cities in Britain with historic and cultural significance. They picked their targets using tourist guidebooks.

[@cynicat74]

I would say probably Rome, and Constantinople are the only other cities considered as culturally significant. Maybe Athens, too.

[@gilbertlloyd8691]

Thats wild. To learn it was circumstantial that nagasaki got bombed is nuts

[@EniGmav34]

Remember the man who survived a nuke at Hiroshima and went to Nagasaki just in time to take the second one. Absolute chad survived both

[@timesnewlogan2032]

Tsutomu Yamaguchi. Lived to be almost a hundred years old.

[@LaraCroftCP]

A black day in history.

[@philiprice7875]

so would have a million dead US troops on any mainland invasion side note the stock of purple hearts ordered to give to the invading US troops was still being used in Iraq.

[@Sandlin22]

History is full of them

[@YS-fr6nu]

So was Pearl Harbour

[@bhaskarroyOD022532]

Another version is that Henry Simpson loved Kyoto as he visited that place with his wife for their honeymoon.

[@WorldWarTwo]

It’s connected. Stimson was one of the voices to spare Kyoto, in part due to his personal experience. However, his honeymoon was not the main reason, only a reference in his support of the decision.