Why you're not having fun in MMO's anymore - [MMOPINION]

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MMO's were better back in the good old days!
Apart from the fact that, no, that's not always true.
Old MMO's, such as Everquest, Tibia, Asherons Call, Ultima Online or Meridian 59 aren't objectively better, or worse, than Warcraft, Final Fantasy 14, Guild Wars 2, The Elder Scrolls Online or Runescape.
The game may have changed but, you know what's changed more?
our lifestyle.

[@reverbedvonacular]

"Remember when you had friends?" Damn, didn't hold anything back there eh.

[@daviouscram2101]

Me: thinks back and remembers all the guilds I've joined hating me regardless of mmo. "Go on."

[@brianschuetz2614]

I have plenty of friends. We just don't hang out in WoW together. We gather in person and play a variety of games, including D&D.

[@Haruka_May]

I know that's not the reason because I've never had close friends.

[@MsHojat]

It's a _TERRIBLE_ argument. I had more fun playing game with strangers and meeting new people and _making friends_ with people in a guild. It had nothing to do with my local friends. I didn't even play _any_ MMOs with local friends.

[@blakeobrien6068]

@@Haruka_May i agree

Honestly I think the reason I'm not enjoying MMOs anymore is because I rarely, if ever, interact with strangers like I used to.

[@mattmason8474]

There's two main reasons for that as well. 1. Games are easier or well documented so you don't need to ask questions or coordinate with your group. 2. Combat has become so action oriented and gameplay so face-paced that it leave very little time for chatting.

[@kwando472]

@@mattmason8474 None, it's based on the person themselves, I have created a raiding community with 10 static groups in final fantasy 14, I am talking with almost all of these members which are 80 of them btw. And the discord is also at 300 people, I am actively improving the community talking with people having people interact with the community trying to make it feel alive. And mean while I come across a lot of different kinds of people, some are very social while others are just not into talking or are anxious and only like to dm me because they feel safer that way. Humans are diverse and some people like being social other don't. If for some reason you think you don't like playing mmo's anymore because of the I am not talking to strangers, either do something about it or you might ask if that's the real reason.

[@ZoeBarber]

Have you tried talking to others rather than waiting for them to talk to you? I make sure every group I join I say hi, people are much more social when you are social too. I have good chats and do mutliple keystones with the same players. I had a guy who had completed 180 20+ keystones... doing +10's with us for 3 hours just because we were social and had a laugh. A complete stranger.

[@godsdemon7441]

That's by the games designs now. I agree

[@edumazieri]

​@@kwando472 True but I think there`s more to it. Its great that you created those groups and that you interact with them, but you are all just doing the same one thing and thats the only thing the game lets you do together. Yes, there are some other stuff too, but it's still a very limited interaction compared to what it could be if the game wasnt so theme parky. The game`s design is a bit at fault, as there is very little reason or tools to do anything together other than that. Everyone basically has to do the exact same things Only difference is whether one of you is a healer and the other is a dps. The only content in the game is what the devs create, and there is very little room to use your imagination and create new things yourselves. You are kind of forced to do those things if you want to progress and the game has only one point which is to progress... so you are a raiding community... because thats the only community that can exist. See what I mean? I am sure its great, but it could be much more.

[@FriedEgg101]

One of the biggest disappointments of adult life, for me, was finding out just how hard it is to make new friends as an adult. I mean actual friends, and not just people you're cordial with.

[@slaveobra8648]

I feel u brother, I just started my first work last year and damn I hate how my colleagues is bringin each other down just to kiss ass with our boss, like bro we're all eventually gonna get a raise you don't have to kiss ass and spread rumors about other people to be above them, this adulting sucks for real.

[@What-he5pr]

Same here man. I hate being an adult because of this. I'm borderline suicidal.

[@VernulaUtUmbra]

I've tried to throw some parties with people I work with, invite like 14 people, and get maybe two of them to show up consistently. I made three pounds of dip and spent four days eating it because no one showed up that time.

[@wvutrip3931]

Don’t think it’s necessarily hard to make new friends it just people usually have their friends established by adulthood and they don’t really want more close friends. So it can be hard for someone new to the area, job, etc to break into those friend groups

[@blenky5516]

​@@What-he5pr hey man, do u game on pc? I'm kinda in the same boat as u, wanna lobby up? I just started eso on pc

[@jasonbourne4865]

The reason I enjoyed MMOs more back in the days is that there wasn't this huge apparatus of online resources surrounding them, and terms like "meta" didn't exist. Your progress and prowess ingame depended more on your own imagination and resourcefulness than your ability to consume walkthroughs and videos on class builds and boss strategies.

[@KubinWielki]

Yeah, that's one of the big reasons why "the magic is gone". In the days of old, you'd have to ask other players about not only secrets, but also just regular gameplay features (especially if tutorial sucked, which was quite often the case), and then you could develop your own style and share your wisdom. Now, you're usually kindly directed to a wiki or a youtube tutorial.

[@newguy3588]

@@KubinWielki Right? Remember when it was cool to share some knowledge because you were there before? Or people were nice enough to take you somewhere and show you the ropes a bit. Now it's grind to max level, grind for gear, etc. It's linear with no chance of exploration. The best memories I have from video games are where I can tell a story about how I got into a situation and got out or died.

[@meatheadmarc1032]

THIS TO A T

[@absynthe404]

Availability is never the servant of possibility. You don't have to look anything up if you don't want to, even if it grants other players an advantage. You can still play like a total idiot if that is your solemn choice.

[@CPSPD]

1000%, i find this also with path of exile. ive found that with me and my friends theres a big pressure to just follow an optimal guide that, whilst looking and playing cool, is passive in your development of it. no creativity, no personal touch, just follow the guide and clear as fast as possible.

[@ThePhuNetwork]

Keeping up with dailies/weeklies, grinding, and getting fomo'd left and right instead of just exploring the world and chatting with strangers kills the fun for me.

[@MariusThePaladin]

Agree. MMORPGs used to be much more fun for me because it used to be new world to explore with hidden magical things hidden everywhere. Now everybody know every bumfuck about it and gameplay changed from exploration to doing tasks to optimize their characters.

[@MarcelRiegler]

There's still some MMOs that actually care about the gameplay from level 1, instead of just grinding up to max when "the game begins". I'm thinking mainly GW2, where no expansion has ever added higher level gear and literal exploration gives you literal experience points.

[@Obelion_]

the whole "the game decides when you play it and not you" is definitely an issue, but you also gotta remember daily quests were already a thing waaaay back

[@ThePhuNetwork]

@@Obelion_ Tradition or not, it still sucks.

[@parthon]

@@Obelion_ The funny thing is that no they weren't, at least not really. WoW had to up the daily cap from 8 to 25 when they added more dailies in the original TBC. Then dailies became a staple in WoTLK, but they were generally optional. You could power game through them in a month, or spread them out over a longer period. There wasn't so much a race to max it out super fast to keep up with the meta. Then Cata, and mop tied reputation to them. So if you wanted the best gear you had to do dailies every day, 8-20 of them, on top of your dungeons and raids. Part of Activisions plan to increase engagement. Get more players playing every day while bleeding subs. So yeah, they've been around since 2006ish, but for someone like me who started with EQ1, they weren't always a thing.

[@mcfarvo]

Maybe the real MMORPG is the friends we made along the way

[@Adamantian9]

@@laoch5658 and of course that became the norm cause everyone wanted to be that guy, so just playing the game and talking to ppl stopped being the focus for mmo rpg's. they've been trying to bring that back, but going it solo and min maxing everything and speed running content has just permanently damaged the mmo rpg landscape and design philosophy. the only mmo rpg that ive come across that still holds old mmo rpg values important while being progressive is Final Fantasy XIV. been having a blast grouping with and talking to the community there, they're super active and really nice. they dont mind at all if you're new or a returning veteran they are always willing to help and talk, its honestly really refreshing. an mmo rpg where you can finally take your time, oh and the stories in FFXIV are INCREDIBLE! they're SO good!.

[@Tavis_aka_Kalik]

Sucks I met the best group of people / raid guild in Wow, and when I left didn't stay in contact with any. Wish social media was bigger back then.

[@MahalGC]

@@laoch5658 Both are extremely important; Without a drive to play a game but still having friends you just jump to a different game to be with them and have a good time, but if you have the drive and no friends then it's only a matter of time until you're lonely in the game and give up on it unless you reaaaally like soloing forever.

[@peterlopez2388]

Bro.....

[@markwick11]

what anime is this?

[@xINVISIGOTHx]

I used to love this mmorpg called Dofus, until they kept changing it and making it worse. I played it for over 10 years I think. Way too many good things to list about it, but 1 great memory I have was this weapon I had. A bow. It was pretty high level but barely did any damage, and was expensive to make. It was very hard to use: you had to change your stats (for the worse?) to equip it. Why use it? It took money from people you hit with it. Their actual game money. Leaves their bag and goes into yours. I found this guy I hated, AFK out in the middle of nowhere. I attack him in PvP, he's still afk. I start making these healing barriers around him, like a cage. I start shooting him, stealing his money. The barriers (giant carrots actually) heal him every turn. He stays AFK for like 28 MINUTES! The bow steals a random amount 1 to 5,000, I stole like 80,000 before he came back. He started cursing at me and attacking the carrots surrounding him because he's stuck in a carrot cage lol. I can't remember who won, I think I did. But the important thing is I got some really funny revenge and a lot of money from someone who was a jerk to me, and I will remember it forever

[@Justacheese]

Holy shit. I never wanna come across you pissed off in any game. If you didn't know who I was, then I would be fine randomly wandering into you, but I never wanna get on your bad side after reading that. Got a feeling you would find a way to screw someone over even if it wasn't in Dofus. Even without a money stealing bow, I bet you would find a way.

[@xINVISIGOTHx]

@@Justacheese yeah I'll take revenge as far as I can go as long as I don't think I'll get banned

[@shionkreth7536]

Revenge is a dish best served cold. :D

[@ptkato_]

I tried Dofus once, I couldn't get around its mechanics and ended giving it up, I got too used to the simplicity of games like Tibia or RuneScape

[@heycntthinkofanyname]

Lol I remember you and your guild, also loved to play Dofus but I feel like many other game developers they fell into the trap of fixing what wasnt broken, see WoW, Runescape - also I read somewhere that they lost 30% of the playerbase when switching to Dofus 2.0

[@generaldane]

As I grow older I realize this doesn't just applies to MMOs it applies to single player games as well, I can't tell the last time I had a truly 'magical' experience playing a game like I did when i was younger

[@TheUltimateBlooper]

I thought about that too, but now that I think for a bit - I really did have intense or emotional experiences playing the following (off the top of my head, but a long read. *TL;DR:* there are still plenty of very high quality and incredibly imaginative games that can very much give you that "magical" experience): God of War reboot (a cinematographic masterpiece and a satisfyingly challenging game). The Witcher 3 (the Ciri story...wow...). Detroit: Become Human (overall choices I made for the story). It Takes Two (co-op with my missis - I've never played a game created with such imagination and attention to detail!). The Wolf Among Us (A visual masterpiece running on a twisted version of the tales of old). Monster Hunter World + Iceborne and Generations Ultimate (lots of co-op with the missis). Mafia 1, 2 & 3 (the stories are just so good and I really like the mafia premise). Bioshock Infinite (The story and just how lifelike Elisabeth felt as an in-game character). DOOM 2016 and Eternal (just badass gameplay at break-neck speeds). Just Cause 3 (surprisingly satisfying progression that allows for more and more grandiose destruction). Kena: Bridge of Spirits (excellent story and tight gameplay). Diablo II Resurrected (this one''s clearly nostalgia xD). HITMAN reboot series (best Hitman games ever, extremely fun to replay and unlock new items). Hades (the story, the music, the writing, the gameplay, the everything... First and ONLY game I've ever got 100% achievements for on Steam)! Prey 2017 (very immersive if you're a stealthy person. Very cool story!). Wolfenstein reboot series (Old Blood / The New Order / The New Colossus - Uber difficulties just feel right!). Valheim (co-op with the missis again. A lot of fun moments spent building a very nice base). Undertale (very unique game). Metroid Dread (I've never played Metroid games, but I tried the demo and liked it a lot. Bought the game and wasn't disappointed!). Diablo III (spent like 400h+ SOMEHOW on the Switch faming seasons and gear for my barbs...). The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap (bought some old Game Boy advance games to experience as I've never had one. The Minish Cap is a very clever game that was just the right amount of challenging and intuitive that it was a delight to progress through). Zelda Breath of The Wild (a modern era Zelda game that rewards ingenuity. Like SERIOUSLY - it's very satisfyingly interactive in many ways that aren't even obvious at first to a gamer). Super Mario Odyssey (My first try at a 3D Mario game after getting it as a gift for my Switch. One of those great Nintendo games again). Superliminal (it's a wacky experience that challenges your perception. A technological marvel!). Cyber Hook (I got hooked...). Slay The Spire (I didn't think I was into card games, but this one is very well made and just keeps pulling me back in for more). Beat Saber (it's a VR one, but a total must). BPM (you just can't stop...). Minecraft (lots of co-op and birthdays during covid spent playing with the missis and friends). Terraria (it's actually not at all like a "2D minecraft" and also impressed me just how good it is!). Spyro Reignited Trilogy (I have not played the PS1 originals, so this was a new game for me - a very fun, great quality platformer). Dusk and Ion Fury (probably also somewhat nostalgic by their graphical nature?). And so many more... West of Loathing, the new South Park games, Forza Horizon 4... For me, anyway. Have you tried any of those? Thoughts?

[@Tymbee]

A semi recent one I could think of is 'Hollow Knight'. Not many modern games actually let me recapture that childhood sense of wonder, where you just get lost exploring a beautiful new world. Like not trying to get too serious, but its upcoming sequel is one of the only things I'm looking forward to in life rn. 'Dark Souls 1' is definitely up there as well. You've probably already heard about the combat and lore being good, but the huge interconnected map and focus on unlocking organic shortcuts make the place feel more real. Later titles use disjointed maps you warp between which made it feel too gamey for me to get the same childhood feeling. 'Rain World' left a huge impact on me with its setting and brutal survival mechanics. You play as a mutant animal in a post apocalyptic setting just struggling to find food, shelter, and not be eaten as you uncover more about the past. I literally haven't been able to beat it, but I keep coming back because the world is that immersive. 'Monster Hunter: World' could be a runner up if you haven't played a Monster Hunter game before. Definitely a bigger timesink like 100hr+, which I get not everyone has time for. Older games like Freedom Unite are great too, but World is the most accessible. 'The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild' is good too. I think the big draw for for me is a focus on exploration, so there's a bunch of other Metroidvanias that sort fill that hole. If you've already tried 'Hollow Knight' and want more, maybe try: 'Momodora: Reverie Under the Moonlight' is great, and only like 8hr playtime. 'La-Mulana' this one's brutally difficult and not for everyone, though definitely very rewarding if you're into it. Depending on how much you're willing to look up guides, the playtime can vary wildly. 'Axiom Verge' this plays like a more modern version of the original 'Super Metroid', and does a lot to subvert Metroidvania genre tropes for people that are hyper familiar with the genre like me. Heck, just play 'Super Metroid' or 'Castlevania: Symphony of the Night' if you haven't before. Metroid Dread too.

[@stevenmcsteven6693]

Single players definitely give a lonely depressive feeling. I believe there are few exceptions though..games like Dark Souls...or this one masterpiece psychopathic gem of a game called Kenshi

[@KevinNijmeijer]

Had the same feeling, I really thought I wouldn't enjoy games as I used to anymore. Then I played Elden Ring and it gave me that exact feeling back. You just gotta find the right game, and that's tough with all the dogshit garbage that gets shipped as AAA these days.

[@generaldane]

@@KevinNijmeijer Interesting that you's say this because I am 70+ hours in Elden Ring now myself and feeling the same lol

[@joroc]

'No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.'

[@botousai]

Existential crisis mode activated after reading that quote :p Beautiful though.

[@andronikoswendsofchange1151]

Heraclitus?

[@booskie4316]

@@botousai The you that's finished reading this is different than the one who started reading this. Both of those "you" are dead by the time you read this.

[@bahumatneo]

Unless you dig into his old tweets and hold it aginst him.

[@Furbantofu909]

well said

[@Hzuuuu]

Why I'm not having fun in MMO's anymore? No one answers to me talking in the chat box anymore. Not even in a city full of players.

[@MrpotatoChips]

They're all with their friends on discord or something. When you think about it, stuff like guilds were features originating in games when apps like that didn't exist. That WAS your social app, most likely. Nowadays the social/community aspects of gaming can be done better by 3rd party apps, to the point where some guilds have their own discord server now. Times change, man.

[@MrpotatoChips]

They're all with their friends on discord or something. When you think about it, stuff like guilds were features originating in games when apps like that didn't exist. That WAS your social app, most likely. Nowadays the social/community aspects of gaming can be done better by 3rd party apps, to the point where some guilds have their own discord server now. Times change, man.

[@Haruka_May]

@@MrpotatoChips It would be nice if there were more MMOs out there for people that like being social and those that want to hide in their little bubble.

[@Akauyra]

I don’t think social apps like discord are a benefit to that end at all though. One of the big draws of an mmo like WoW was that it was such an organic way to meet people on your little adventure. For everything else discord and the likes are good for, fine.. But it does tend to be overly cliquey. In an MMO though? It has no place and its a tragedy that ppl would be stuck in their own discord server

[@loganreed9340]

Idk, trade chat in WoW still holds the legacy of the Barrens. You probably logged in during unsociable hours or in a barren MMO.

[@OMeffigy]

For me what changed was the rise of 3rd party voice chat. I always had a wonderful time being my character typing at people but now a days people require you to sit in a voice channel so they can tell you how bad you are at the game before booting you.

[@zodiartsstarro]

This happened to be in Dragon Nest. Carved my way to cap and basically got grilled by a tryhard in a discord chat because I wasn't playing "to the guilds standards" as I just wanted to have fun. I left and really didnt play again.

[@dragonsyph2557]

What i miss is VALUE> Now days you spend 60-80 bucks for a new game and beat it in 5 hours. LIKE wtf? With old games you had endless nights of fun.

[@autumnleaf2263]

It's the exact opposite for me. I never had friends in the game and I have way more free time now, but it's not fun for me anymore. When my life was shit, Azeroth was a better place to be. My life is infinitely better now and so the game just feels like a treadmill of chores. Thanks for helping me put it into words.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

I kinda have both your and his view? I do believe having less time in my lifestyle made me want to play MMOs less, but it's also the c h o r e s. The daily missions specifically are so tiring... It's repeating the same thing, over and over again. That's why I drop most MMOs very quickly, I didn't like the gameplay, how much grinding I had to do, Dragon Nest and DDTank(I don't know if this game counts as MMO) were the only one's that I kept playing for long due to their somewhat unique gameplay, but man repetitiveness grew old. I agree with the video and how social aspect was important for a lot of people, but it's only partially true for me.

[@crankpatate3303]

"It needed teamwork and this was fine, *because you had friends* " This one stings.

[@Obelion_]

​@S p right? people are so sad nowadays, as if you cant make friends past 25, its easier than ever. if you have to play with people you know irl just play anything in your local game store and you will meet people to play games with online in no time. ive never played with RL friends because i was the only mmo enjoyer i knew and the guys i met online were amazing. im never one who sits in discord talking for 8 hours but the guilds i played with mainly raiding were absolutely amazing people i had so much fun with. i feel like half the mmo crowd is just sad people who never figured out how to function as an adult. You can easily have that lifestyle of playing video games all day with friends. if you want to you can get a 20/30 hour job that is way less time investment than school or college was. doesnt pay much but playing video games all day makes you living expenses go straight to zero

[@insertcognomen]

@S p So you're wrong...you had friends in the game because you made them in the game. Just because you didn't bring your irl friends into the game didn't mean you didn't have friends in the game

[@LordGrizzly89]

Ha, I work a 32 hours job and it's still more time investment than school was ^^ But at least nowadays my mom doesn't come in to turn of the N64 because I played for an hour xD

[@reallyanotheruser7290]

Saddest thing is: Since my third last year in school i have such a hard time making friend and trusting anyone that i NEVER made friends online or in games and ALLWAYS played EVERYTHING singleplayer. For 14 years now. The concept of making friends in games is absolutely alien to me

[@DingoZed]

MMOs are now more concerned about how they can squeeze more money out of players rather actually have pride for the game.

[@melanieenmats]

Yup this is the thing the author imo totally underestimates. I think this invalidates his whole video. The design principles have changed a lot. Games used to be made exclusively by the game developers. These days the marketing departments have more input than the devs. Before this change that was gradual, games were designed for fun. Now they are designed -just like social media- to make you spend as much time as possible, and to to make people buy microtransactions. It is very important to realize that fun is no longer the main goal. Fun is but a tool to help you get addicted at some points. The video author with his emotional take imo was a bit pedantic, and mostly missed the point.

[@DingoZed]

@@melanieenmats Blizzard is the perfect example of how times ruined such a great game company.

[@Copratra]

Also the players are trying to find fastest route through the games to the "top tier" "end game content", demolishing the need for low-mid-level questing. Which the companies are doing their best to serve and monetize.

[@fmgmailaccount2445]

@@DingoZed If that was true why did so many people stop playing Vanilla WOW already? Its not nearly as monetized as the current wow.

[@indeffpino123]

@@fmgmailaccount2445 because vanilla wow is a 12 year old game that most people already experienced

[@Kaittycat]

My favorite parts of MMOs from childhood (I was aged 9 when I started playing Everquest) was just being lost and immersed in the world. That game had no hand holding at all, online resources were non-existent or scarce, so it was a big, scary, uncharted world, no maps, no markers, with wandering terrifying enemies that scowled at you, ready to attack, but it was incredible to explore. Getting helped by veterans, getting my first platinum piece, exploring Ak'Anon, discovering the Necromancer's guild behind several hidden walls in the sewers of Qeynos.. Riding the boat for the first time and zoning into sea, stopping at an island that was way outside of my league, and going to another city. Joining random groups in the early teen levels and exploring dungeons because you couldn't really survive on your own and it was always dangerous.. Comparing to my experiences in WoW, FFXIV, GW2 leveling & dungeons where, for the most part, you just zip through as fast as possible, solo your way through or group and gather up mobs, AOEing them and healing through all damage with ease. *I still play and enjoy those games immensely,* it's just different and less memorable to me. The slower pace and difficulty is really only found at end-game raiding with a guild that is unfamiliar with content, I still hold memories of raiding in WoW: Legion in 2016 with close friends pretty dear. The exploration and wonderment of EQ back then was incredible, I'll agree it was definitely enhanced by being a child at the time, but I'll disagree that it's the same; times have changed. Modern MMOs are not really scary and VERY, VERY hand-holdy, they're downright afraid of challenging the player until the very end. I kind of wish they would have a self-imposed difficulty slider - let me underlevel myself for a loot boost or something while I'm leveling. Instead the gameplay is to play solo through the slog of unchallenging story quests for dozens of hours in FFXIV, Ark Online, BDO, New World and others. Still, a few modern games, not MMO's, have invoked that childlike exploring and curiosity for me: Outer Wilds, Tunic, and to an extent, Death Stranding. I beat Outer Wilds over a year ago, I'm 32, and I still think of my experiences in that game on almost a weekly basis. It's frustratingly memorable, I'm wishing I could forget it so I could play through again fresh.

[@cupriferouscatalyst3708]

I played EverQuest on Project99 for a few months recently and honestly, I did feel some of that magic. I went in with the intention of not reading any wikis or forums, and all the players I met were so friendly! It was always "Oh you don't know where that city is? Follow me, I'll show you!" or "Hey, I see you're taking a lot of damage. Here, try this shield!". I have no idea how the population was like beyond the few areas I saw, but it really felt like the perfect setting for anyone who wants to pretend it's 1999 and jump into an MMO completely blind. Also, it really warms my heart that this is the third mention of Outer Wilds I've seen in this comment section. That game is just so, so wonderful and special.

[@dragonsyph2557]

ME TOO, back then everything was NEW, gaming was new, online was new, online gaming was new, gaming PC's were new, and to first experience that all while everything was new was just AMAZING> And doing it all on Dial up 56k was awesome lol, then upgrading to DLS, EPIC>

[@matej5433]

I think deep down we all know this is true. I've been convincing my friends it's not a new MMO they're longing for, but a redo/re-experiencing of their youth. For some, that's a tough one to face.

[@mojebi3804]

except that's not true at all. Why is there not a character creation that can match SWG even to this day?

[@redshift912]

It’s an absurd argument . I was way past my youth when mmos became popular ( in my 50s now )

[@chiefavagef0x837]

What I feel like everyone needs & also I feel like it's also the key or part of the key to happiness is by retaining some part of your childhood self I lost my innocence by the time I was 9yo & have had a hell of a life .. these days now I'm on my feet some & actually can, doing things I did & loved as a child like drawing playing Animal Crossing (untill recently Pokémon was on that list older gens still are tho) it genuinely keeps me sane & happy.

[@chiefavagef0x837]

@@mojebi3804 pretty sure what the video was talking about is just a problem that plagues most ppl or he's being pretentious & pretending he knows what he's talking about could be either or in my opinion lol although I do think it's just a problem that us few can't relate to at least not anymore I got over my nastalgia craze awhile back

[@Ookami20]

Holy shit… you just exploded my brain.. you’re right….

[@archsteel7]

My happiest memories were playing LOTRO with my dad. It didn't honestly matter what we were doing. I miss that.

[@SpiderFfate]

I love that game, Id love to see him review it, but, thats awesome, I always wanted to play games with my dad, and he did play dc universe online with me a few times, which was awesome, but he just wasn't really a gamer and didn't really understand a lot of it, so it just didn't work out, but I guess I'm just saying i think its really cool that you did that

[@adamtajhassam9188]

this i can say honestly thre wasa time where suvivability and leveling was 120 in wow - this i can say made me stick around killing bosses w enough challenges- i went back yes w better PC hardware and still had friends...Dying more felt like crap the game felt more like work in SL - expansion wow- today i look @ the game try to enjoy and felt a greater disconnect then a reconnect i still have time in my life work money etc balance despite a few things going up here and there still didnt come back due the fate of fun.. having 350 to 600k health was more satsifying then 52k ... ah yes a memories i wish to relive . as for graphics it felt real enough and cartoon enough.

[@alexanderrahl7034]

I remember playing WoW as a kid with my dad and just goofing off or exploring while he went through the tedium of keeping my ass alive lol. Then when I got my ex to play WoW for the first time, she wanted to goof off and run around too. Looking back, I really regret trying to get her to do quests, because It didn't click with me that she was experiencing the game the exact same way I used to, and the way I wish I could again.

[@lucascorreacamargo1134]

same... rf online with my dad was cool as hell

[@maesanthrope9270]

I still remember 11 year old me (I’m in my 20s now) running downstairs to tell him I’d finally hit level 20 (I was obsessed with making new characters so that was an achievement at the time)

[@LordAus123]

Came for the explanation, left with an existential crisis

[@ItsJustMe0585]

Yup... Means I guess we'll never find that feeling again. :'(

[@Rig0r_M0rtis]

@@ItsJustMe0585 I'm currently just buying games on Steam hoping to play them all when I retire at 70 yo....

[@ksrknwht300klls]

@@Rig0r_M0rtis is it sense of wonder? Is it dementia? Don't know. Don't care.

[@kalkovonschpritzendorf1914]

@@ItsJustMe0585 Depends... even though my best years of gaming experience were in my High School, I've had some amazing never-before gaming experiences long after graduating. Some games can still catch you, if you let them... and the accessibility of them is much higher than it was in the "olden days". For me it was Space Engineers a year ago... the thrill of being in a ship, in what seemed to be like a scene taken out of startrek, out of fuel, being grabbed by the gravity of the planet... being in the shadow, wihout access to solar, slowly burning the Ice in storage to make new fuel, hoping it would last, slooooowly gainig altitude, hoping the fuel won't run out before we run out of the gravity... We managed to survive, but barely... that was on par with some of the greatest experiences from Azeroth ;) Also the bizzare moments that games like Sea of Thieves can get you into can be as much thrilling, if you have the right company. Don't expect to relive the moments from 10 years ago... but don't give up on making new awesome ones. The good times aren't limited to the past...

[@twinblade63]

honestly. this shook me lol

[@TG-ge1oh]

That feeling you mentioned...returning from school and turning on the old pc... I've been chasing that feeling for the last couple decades... Everything's gone meta now. I just want to pick up the most fun looking weapon I find and then die a hundred times at the first miniboss because I CAN. That's my idea of fun, bumbling around and realizing a week into the game that a ranger doesn't do sword and board. I sincerely feel that this is your most relatable video ever. Almost like a poem by Shane Koyczan.

[@Revz8bit]

My wife and I got married in WoW the week after we did irl. Our guild did it in a raid night, even awarding DKP (was during classic) if you showed up dressed properly and such. The raid leader even had us line up and stuff and read our vows, like a real wedding. I'll never forget that!

[@ISCARI0T]

but how cringe is this??

[@iwantmmore]

@@ISCARI0T its not cringe at all. Let people enjoy things! I've been to multiple in game weddings in many games and its quite fun! If it makes them happy, let them be!

[@MrSnrub-eb8pz]

​@@ISCARI0T cringe wasn't a term and circa 2005 these games weren't full of normies

[@KONONEKODA]

- download the game by the nostalgia - play the game - realized: it's not the game i miss, it's the time that i play that game

[@brokefun7545]

100% . RuneScape and maple story are the only games that keep me around to gaming. As weird as it is

[@trapchan86]

@@bananapeelonhead No, stop, I can't do this anymore. I'm so fucking close to relapsing, but being a boomer on RO these days is suicide.

[@mercster]

Yep, this. You can never recapture the wonder of childhood. Most manbabies who cry about current games aren't mature enough yet to realize this.

[@Aaron-mj9ie]

I downloaded the MMO from my heavy gaming years(There's still a few hundred people that play it,) and I was caught off guard by how much it had changed. Basically, all of the things I loved about it we're gone and replaced with "Daily missions" and "Solo friendly content". I even tried playing a legacy server, but that required jumping through so many hoops to get a buggy version of the game I remember, that nobody really even plays.

[@wozzielfc401]

I downloaded classic wow thought it was gona be so great for a few days it was then it hit me this was made for 2004 era and it should stay there . It didn't have the same magic as where I didn't know what the hell I was doing and the style is so outdated let alone I dont have a whole day like I did when I was younger 🤣

[@RainbowDevourer]

TLDR; Why you're not having fun in MMO's anymore is because you're not having fun in Life anymore... A kinda sobering thought

[@StraightcheD]

13:33 The final line is more abstract and melancholic - MMO has changed, but YOU have changed more.

[@zeehero7280]

Hell yeah that game sucks! so pay to win, and so punishing! realistic graphics are the only plus.

[@Conny-tk8md]

That line's definitely true for me!

[@hungariannerd8445]

I was in love with Classic WoW, because it was the first MMO I played - and I played it on Christmas when I was 12 years old. After that christmas my parents broke up and my family has been broken. I am 27 years old, when I see the Dwarf starting zone, I can almost feel the warm loving feeling of family. Coldridge Valley is a time capsule that has captured a moment in time, a specific memory from my childhood - when everything was perfect. I only made it until level 40 before my parents broke up. And I've realized everytime I pickup Classic WoW, i start getting bored and losing interest around level 40... I don't do it on purpose, it just naturally happens.

[@Tim99GT]

This really hit me. I think as men internalize mental anguish and it comes out in odd ways like you described. I just wanted you to know that this story made me feel, and I hope you find happiness.

[@hungariannerd8445]

@@Tim99GT thanks man. Yeah I’ve found happiness throughout all the “stuff” of life.

[@metal_monocle7334]

For sure. I can still conjure that same feeling when thinking of playing vanilla almost 20 years ago. However when I boot up Classic I feel nothing but boredom.

[@slaveobra8648]

Life is crazy in so many unexpected ways brother, keep the fire burning. Age is just a number, don't get caught with the things that this society is pushing in our face.

[@derprofessor7027]

I was 11 when I played my first mmo. It was new, exciting! I thought I was the coolest guy with all my gear. Life was simpler back then too, i was care free. Those times are gone. Im not saying that I don’t enjoy mmo’s anymore, but as an adult, it just doesn’t hit like that anymore.

[@AngRyGohan]

I think there is a simple explaination for this: Younger people are more impressionable. When i was a kid or teen, i was satisfied like with the oldest version of Mario. If i had to play it now i would fall asleep how simple it is, despite still liking 2d platformer games.

[@Exil22]

I agree with some of what you said Josh. Absolutely, a life without responsibilities (middle school or whatever) made ALL games more enjoyable. I used to kick it with the boys on Modern Warfare 2,, some of my favorite gaming memories are from those after school COD sessions. But - I do think something very real is at play here, and not just simple nostalgia. My favorite MMO memory is of playing runescape back in 2005, and I still actively love and enjoy the game today. The thing is, even oldschool runescape is extremely different from playing it in 2005 despite the game taking on the 2007 reboot. Everything is based on grinds, XP Gains, not wasting XP, and minigames are completely dead content. Nobody plays the game for "Fun" anymore, and I think a large part of that is because of how available information is. Players used to fear a quest like Monkey Madness, saying how incredibly hard it was, and the sight of another player holding a dragon scimitar meant they were super knowledgeable. Nowadays, nobody would ever just walk around the world and create their own adventure in their own way... they would never mine coal at a completely inefficient spot. The access to endless guides, wiki pages, and overexaggerating of how important it is to be a high level rather than just having fun is what makes the experience so much different. When everyone is a huge noob, and has no idea what they're doing, the social aspects of the game such as the minigames, chatting with people in a major city, and world events like the party room seem like a fun thing to do, not a waste of XP.

[@conwillis2297]

Great point well made 👍

[@BobaFettFan]

I catch myself optimizing the fun out of games and I hate it

[@CheezMonsterCrazy]

Part of it is the availability of information, but I also think our own ability to process that information plays a part. Guides and walkthroughs and in depth analysis existed for RS even way back in the early 2000s. But as kids we simply weren't concerned with looking for those things, and less likely to be able to apply the information even if we got it. We're adults now. We optimize, because that's what life has taught us to do. We can't help finding the best XP/hour, or most efficient routes, the best gear for a particular boss. Our time is at a premium, and that extends into our recreational activities.

[@warfighter1988]

Exactly I think survival games are a perfect example of this. They start of nice and super immersive until a huge clan with way too much free time tske over the server. You're whole play time from that point out is about progressing instead of exploring and having fun. Mmos are no different they start of fun but after a while everybody is just racing to the endgame, everything you do needs to serve some purpose. It also doesnt help that we've seen every type of game a 100 times already, its damn near impossible to create a new fresh mmo experience

[@kevinmiller8111]

Thank you! I had a similar experience trying to get back into the game. I played Runescape for 7 years it was absolutely amazing simply because how easy it was to talk to people and meet friends, hell I still talk with my old guildmates I met back in 2004 despite quitting the game back in 2011. I tried to play the game again multiple times, nobody talks to random players anymore, the game was back but not the community.

[@dylanmontana4521]

TLDR: You're depressed and dead inside now

[@romanosdiogenes3638]

World in constant financial crisis for the last 10 years, global lockdown due to the covid pandemic, even kids today are not as carefree as we used to be, they can't even go out for a walk today without wearing a mask for example. This makes for a very different setting than the one we lived in 10-15 years ago.

[@KrillWhisperer]

Staph.

[@jimmym3352]

He depressed me about the dating talk. I always wondered why other women couldn't interest me like my first. And honestly, I don't even want to date again because I feel like it will never be like the first one I was with. Maybe I'm that way with MMO's too. None have recaptured the magic I had with WoW. I feel like it's foolish to even try. I'm not going to waste time and money on other MMO's (or not even modern WoW).

[@sakuyarules]

I mean, that's true for me, lol.

[@someoldatheist6712]

exactly

[@CorpseTornado]

I think the biggest thing was that when I played EQ back in the day it was novel to me AND to everyone else. There wasn't as much of an ability to just Google the quests or secrets in a zone or storyline, a lot of mysteries just stayed mysterious for a longer period of time. I think those 2 factors are what I miss most. And it's true that we're not going back to that, Google and wikis are here and not going away. Now the fun is more in getting good at the game and the socializing, which were always factors, but the emphasis has drastically increased because of the reasons I mentioned, the loss of the mass novelty and persistent mystery.

[@MrIrrationalSmith]

I'm almost a year late to this video, but I'd like to add that it's harder for me to get immersed in games as I get older. I'm almost 30 years old, and I'm very aware that the game I'm playing is a product with successes and shortcomings. I'll consciously recognize and applaud the excellent soundtrack, but I'll also acknowledge the limited gameplay mechanics and - ever aware of my mortality and valuable, limited time - decide if the game is worth investing my precious minutes and hours. I remember being a kid in the 2000s and feeling completely immersed and awestruck in the worlds of Fable and TES: Oblivion and early WoW, but that feeling is incredibly rare now - nigh unobtainable. Adult me will never again be hyped about a game like teenage me was about Mass Effect 1 or Halo 2. Games are still fun, but they're more like going to a carnival or amusement park instead of disappearing to another world with endless possibilities. And maybe now that I regularly play D&D I'm a bit spoiled by the *actual* endless possibilities in TTRPGs compared to the limits of video games.

[@Khannea]

Wow 2006. It was friends. It was the novelty. I was blown away by undercity, like I was TOTALLY lost in Tirisfal Glades. I felt the foggy cold on my skin, I smelled the graveyards, I felt the exhaustion of running around. I LITERALLY explored the Barrens for days. These days are gone.

[@broco1163]

100% agree. And I disagree with the video because I think that feeling, our feeling of immersion, was a result of the game itself and its design, not the moment in our lives. I'm older, but I still have plenty of free time. The problem is that MMOs feel formulaic, optimized, rote, and focused on scheduled gratification. To use WOW as an example, MMOs have become a math problem on how to keep people subbed, with a carefully timed stream of arbitrarily delayed reward systems, like raid release schedules and mechanics like Renown and Soul Ash caps, Artifact Power and Azerite. Servers have merged into massive faceless millions, instead of the relatively small communities where even normal players could develop a name and reputation. MMOs are very different creatures than they used to be, and it's not something that can be hand-waived away by the fact that I have kids and bills. I can still stay up until 1am playing MMOs. My best memories aren't necessarily from an all-nighter. The games have become corporate, and lost their soul in the process.

[@Purriah]

One of my best memories of wow is literally just leveling in the barrens on my first character. The world was so vast and there was so much beauty in watching the sunrise over ratchet. Truly an immersive feeling that I haven’t felt since exploring new zones in WoW in wrath and before

[@quickdudley]

I played WoW again for a while a couple of years ago and definitely missed being able to find someone to team up with just by hanging round just outside a dungeon for a few minutes (although back then it worked better than it should have because there were only a couple of players on my server who'd already made it to level 60)

[@chm1367]

I felt that

[@loganreed9340]

@@quickdudley well, you can. There are social guilds and communities in WoW. Just go, find one that suits you and blast on. You're just trying to find excuses to praise old times and bash new.

[@Muca105]

Came for an answer, left with depression.

[@mathiasboulougouris3836]

@Balkan Rifle No I really think he meant life sucks for a lot of adult people. But if yourself find meaning and maybe hapiness in your new priorities, all the power goes to you obviously. Most people haven't quite figured how to do this yet according to my own observations.

[@Conny-tk8md]

Thank you for this thoughtful analysis, which definitely hits home for me in most parts! I'm in the process of re-subscribing to Gemstone IV and reviving characters I haven't played since 2005. This old-style text-based MUD holds a very special place in my heart because I met my first husband in that game. I have way less time to play these days, but I find myself homesick for Elanthia several times a year. Rationally, I know I can't relive those exciting old days on dial-up (remember the modem dial tone?), but I get an echo of the person I used to be when walking around Icemule Trace or sitting in town square just watching and listening. *sighs*

[@DaltonTrigger]

I gotta say the one thing I miss about older MMORPGs, that you see a lot less now, is the ability for all players at all levels of the game to be involved. Take Ultima or Ragnarok Online, for instance. As a low-level player I couldn't join end-game dungeons, sure. But I could still gather useful resources, and sell them to higher level players to make my money. I would still be wanted in guilds because gathering resources and money and selling stuff at the market and so forth were all very valuable, communal tasks that even a newbie can assist with. I would help my clans win clan battles by sitting back home making healing potions or whatever. You had many ways to participate and progress. My problem with MMORPGs now is how many have the "theme park" experience like you described in other videos. Where you are experiencing the exact same SOLO gameplay as everybody else, killing the same number of random animals for the same quest NPC, and there's no robust market or other features in the game to keep your attention. You are just on a slog from level 1 to level 100 so you can finally join the end-game raids. It's like the only gameplay exists at the end of the game, and new players are just time-gated. Can't enjoy the "real game" until you grind for three months!

[@Atned]

I came here expecting someone to confirm my bias against modern mmo's and how they're so watered down or hold your hand the whole way.. but instead got some pretty wholesome feedback and perhaps even an epiphany on why I don't really enjoy mmo's anymore: adulting is hard, makes you an impatient SOB, and takes a lot of your time now.

[@budsak7771]

Or maybe jedi mind tricks do work only on the weak-minded. 🤯😶

[@Daragh356]

Short Version: Life is more depressing and lonely the longer you're alive.

[@Volkbrecht]

I used to think I had that problem. But then along came some games that had me right back where I was in my early adult years, among them a rather simple game called Bastion. That made me realize that there was indeed something wrong with the games I play, not with me. It's worth digging for the good stuff, and a lot of games are indeed not as good as "they used to be".

[@vincentlee7359]

So because life is short and will move on after I die, I should just kill myself? Got it.

[@Volkbrecht]

@@vincentlee7359 That certainly is one way to look at it. Mortal, sentient beings are a bit of a cosmic joke.

[@Entropy3ko]

Or maybe your life is better now and MMOs just seem not a fun escape anymore. After all if you have a shit lonely life but on an MMO you are awesome and have friends, you will remember more fondly then when you have a good life and IRL friends then MMO does not need to provide for that relief and they will seem more boring.

[@zenjr1004]

@@vincentlee7359 Or you could think there are young people having a shitty childhood. Maybe you could help them while you last. In fact it would help them and you. Just a hint of purpose in life.

[@cheezeofages]

My favorite memory was in my first MMO, LotRO. Where I was with a party and we were only level 8. We'd gotten done slamming some of the quests that at the time were geared to recommend a team. And we just were running through the woods and started chilling in an small river with a small waterfall. I thought the atmosphere was really nice. Just having gone to battle and then the tranquility of the river contrasted with the waterfall just high enough to be worried about taking fall damage. It was chill. And the second member of the team was into the relaxing waterfall hijinks and swimming off it. The third was like "The swimming isn't relaxing. You can't even dive like in WoW"

[@davidds0]

you are so lucky that LOTRO was your first MMO. imo also the best of its time!

[@thorin1045]

well, here is mine, well, two of mine, both from swg: first, moving in one of the bus planet, and made the mistake of putting on the master tailor title. the next 30 minutes was almost enough to move 30 meters. got bombarded constantly with requests of cloth. the last guy was in a search of a tailor for a ring, or to be precise, two rings, for an ig wedding, talked about a few minutes, while made the rings and renamed them for the two participants name. when was the last time you bought rings for weddings in an mmo from an other player, and not from an ig irl money using store? Second is similar, someone from a chat asked for bunch of cloth, told him to go to my house (more option with the proper tools and we can trade the items to try on) than for nearly 30 minute, he try various cloth, asks for ideas and combos for colors and designs, literally like an actual shopping, it was an almost true rpg event, not just a bs-ing for best armor stat and moving on.When was the last time you went on shopping useless items to look cool, not from the ig irl money using store, but from an other player.

[@josephbradley7527]

Honest answer: more free time is what I would need to really enjoy an MMO

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

Compleyely understandable.

[@Ian_Darksword]

This is incredibly true for my experience as well.

[@Xanthelei]

More free time and specifically looking at WoW (my first love MMO), way less RNG-locked progression. Even after I stopped having hours every night to give to the game, I still enjoyed logging on and slowly plugging away at personal goals. Then those personal goals became time-sensitive RNG-based things I may never see the right daily or mob spawn to complete and I just can't care enough.

[@lordmech]

@@JoshStrifeHayes a game you should not have left out is Star Wars Galaxies.

[@0ffd]

Lol ain't no MMO right now that is worth your free time.

[@anonymousjeffry1864]

Snap shot: " Damn you are already 24 years old? " Me being 40 now ...

[@StardustSpiritDragon]

I dont hate guilds it just the fact I hate people love me because I dont want them to hurt me in the future. That why I play by myself and only make jokes with the mens..... I just want to be positive all the time but Nostalgia and the negative over take me over time..... Man life is complicated.

[@RijackiTorment]

You are absolutely spot on about the outside lifestyle being the bigger influence. I have gone back to playing the game I left in 2004, Everquest, because I reconnected with someone I played with back then and he enticed me to try it again. I even went back to my old server, Firiona Vie. And, there was a much smaller guild than in the past, but a regular night of grouping if only for a couple hours. We expanded to a couple other grouping nights to fit our schedules and linked up with another diminished guild for a regular grouping session. It rekindled the joy in the game because of the people. I've rolled up new characters as well as dusting off some of the old characters I had (some had gotten a 'bump' to level 85). I have been enjoying playing again, but it much much smaller time blocks than I did years ago. The game has changed, yes, and a lot of the early levels are heaps easier, but it's still possible (as a subscriber) to "level-lock" after you hit 51. The reason for the leveling being faster is a legitimate development decision. The producers of the game want to get players into the new content, the new expansions you pay for. Thus, the time-to-level is to get into the higher levels is roughly the same as it was when the level cap was lower. I'm not sure if the leveling curve is the same on progression servers as it is on 'normal' servers or if they're toned down as well as having content locked until certain marks are hit, either time or population related.

[@joelr951]

I had such great memories of camaraderie and challenge when I played WoW. Your video really spoke to me, as I've tried multiple times to find the same feeling I had back then. Its led me to purchase multiple MMO's, only to drop them later as they never gave the same feeling as back then. Thank you for the video!

[@MhnFive]

The only mistake this video def made is saying it was because life was "Better" and not just accommodating. For many mmo players, they got into their first game because of the exact opposite. Life was terrible for them. Be it lack of friends or fulfilling goals, they needed an escape. Mmos provided all that and then some at the click of a button. Hell, I'm sure we've all met people that can flat out admit their guild mates were at one point the highlight of their days, or their mentors that gave them reasons to live. Now that veteran players have passed the chapter in their life and must look at mmos as video games instead of social portals, is it really a surprise things were just "better" back then.

[@sdbzfan1]

I remember my first guild, LegendZ, the guild I joined because it was accomodating to newbies back in Dragonball Online, I played it back in 2013 as a 14 and could figure out how to play japanese games without understanding a single word, one of my favourite memories from that game was me and my guild mates getting together for a mock ingame wedding with our guild master and vice master, after that my voice guild leader said since she would play the game less and the guild would probably disband that she would get the members cash items as a last hurrah, I asked if I could a Yardrat Costume as I thought it was both not very expensive and cool looking since I already had sunglasses, Loved that costume after that and I wore it from that point onward after the guild disbanded and until the servers closed but I didn't care I even had old guildmates ask if I wanted to join our friend guild Uprising but I wanted to stay a vagrant, I think I was lv 45 by the time the guild disbanded because after I had gotten to lv 50 and leveling up got harder I decided to hang around low level areas and help new players and low level players, I had a pet that could party teleport as a skill which helped players get to areas for quest since I could teleport and fly at the time so I could bring the practically anywhere but I simply helped them with quests that had them fighting super bosses at the low levels to make it easier for them as i could pull the aggro yet also dodge hits since I was so much higher leveled I continued with this mindset into other games like Digimon Masters online where once I got high enough I would spend my free time logging on just helping people, i like to think I made their day a little better in both games, i don't play mmos much anymore as I just can't get into them anymore but that's fine I'll come back when something calls to me(Blue Protocal)

[@lunahemera6387]

I know this is an old comment on an old video but what you said resonated a lot. I began playing Guild Wars 2 when life was downright unbearable and it was that escape route and the people I met on there who literally inspired me to keep getting up every single day that made it so much fun. Achieving something together felt meaningful and significant. Now that chapter has long past and I got my life in order, and I can barely enjoy the game. Those people have stopped playing, and I don't feel I get anything out of it anymore.

[@MhnFive]

@@lunahemera6387 Glad you got to share. Might be a bit old but hell, people stumble across these type of videos all the time. You really got no clue how many people will scroll across comments like these and walk away with newfound perspective.

[@CenKyne]

Hey I'm Cen from Project 1999. Just wanted to say my experience from the olden days was the enjoyment in fearing the world itself. There is a joy in traveling on an adventure where death has consequences, and leaving the city gates is scary because the monsters out there are strong and will kill you. When you put a team together in town and actually make it to your next destination the thrill is incredible. It's the lack of fear that ruins newer games for me. Fear is exciting.

[@MrGrimshad]

100%

[@WhoTnT]

I hated Borderlands 3 for this same reason. There was no challenge or fear of dying like in BL2. I could just stand and look at some of the bosses in BL3 for quite a while before having to worry about dying. The stupid thing about it was that only after you finish the campaign(~40-50 hours) then you could adjust the difficulty to make it a challenging experience and it immediately became a much more fun game.

[@E3kstrand]

I completely agree. Other than fallout 76 not having NPCs, I felt that the experience was addicting at launch because the world was brutal and resources were limited. Now the game is piss easy and sucks even though they added NPCs. Legendaries ruined that game big time.

[@cmdrfunk]

I went back to project 1999 to play EQ in like 2009 after not liking MMO's for 10 years. Yep, it was better than the modern MMO's of the time. It had nothing to do with nostalgia, free time, or friends. EQ definitely has more challenge and you're afraid to die deep in a dungeon. I played WOW the first month it came out and got to 60 in like 2 weeks solo face tanking mobs with a rogue and never played it again. Death is/was meaningless in MMO's. I honestly don't even know now since I haven't played any in a while except Wildstar for a month or two like 7 years ago.

[@ref7ecting]

Exactly

[@nuadasilverpaw5702]

My biggest MMO memory was when I played EQ1. Shadows of Luclin was launching later that week. They decided to do the prelaunch event on a work day. I was almost late for work because I wanted to witness it. To make things better, I was involved in it. Out of hundreds that were there, myself and 3 other people were picked. For being a part of it, we received a new title (They changed our surname to 'of the Nexus') and we each got a bauble called "Propylon of the Nexus" which would teleport you to the TP hub in the new lands. I barely made it to work on time that day but it was worth it.

[@dragonsyph2557]

HAHA such good memory's, i took 2 weeks of work for PoP and Luclin haha.

[@cardsthatmatter4923]

I absolutely agree with you. I've been playing MMO's my entire adult life (I'm 44 now), and I've had this exact conversation with my friend on numerous occasions. It always comes down to the first MMO we ever played being the best, most immersive, and most fulfilling.

[@d4c269]

"you're looking to the future hoping to recapture the past." this hits deep. why'd you go and give me an existential crisis while talking about MMOs?😥

[@goblinphreak2132]

we look to the future because we want something new that provides a challenge. when you make the same game over and over and never expand upon it, it becomes easy. worse when you simplify a game to make it easy to hit a wider audience. we want to recapture the past by having a game that is a challenge, that presents a fun experience. new games cannot do this. because they aren't fun and they don't present a challenge. worse, give a child today who loves pokemon, the old red/blue version. they will quit saying its too hard. guaranteed. ive seen it plenty of times with family members and friends who have kids. they don't like hard games. so how do you make money when kids today aren't forced into that challenge? you make it easy. which is why today's games suck.

[@TheAyanamiRei]

The only way to fully enjoy an MMORPG again is to look at Key Factors: #1 Finding a group of people that keep you coming back to the game. People that you can create awesome new memories. #2 Try to enjoy each game as it is, instead of trying to chase the past. Instead of trying to find ways it's similar to your Old Love....find ways it Differs so it becomes NEW Love. #3 Be realistic about how much time you can realistically devote to said MMORPG. An then look for games that you can speed through (Having a subscription to STar Wars: The Old Republic will get you to Max Level REAL quick). That or find a game where you feel may give you lots of smaller reward, instead of a BIG reward that may take 10+ hours to get into. To know what Epic Fights/Dungeons that you'll have time for or not. #4 Think about what you really want and need from an MMORPG. Are you someone who kept playing fantasy titles, because of your OG MMORPGs, but maybe want to try something free? Do you need a game where you do NOT need to subscribe to have fun, or be FPS without too much of a Fee to Play? Do you want type of people might you want to play with? Try to find all those different variables that makes a game Fun and Fulfilling as well. Both Short AND Long Term.

[@jimjimson6208]

@@goblinphreak2132 I agree that a lot of AAA games are dumbed down, but there are plenty of games that aren't. Sure, some of 'today's games' suck, but guess what? So did a lot of games 20 years ago. There has never been a shortage of terrible videogames, and I wish people would stop acting like it was some recent development. If you don't like simplified mainstream videogames (which is understandable) then don't play them, its literally that simple. At no point in the history of videogames have you been more spoiled for choice.

[@crystallogic2543]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIW0m5KVmb-ShMk

[@beasthaven1571]

Time to find...a new genre to play.

[@christianbeasley665]

I didn't expect to face an existential crisis after watching gaming content.

[@APyralis]

Me either... and yet here we are. There was some damn hard truth here.

[@planexshifter]

and now I am sitting here, realizing I am old and my best days are behind me. At least I have my memories (for now)

[@anderpanders6210]

In the end, all past is worthless. The past is only useful with regards to the future. Your memories help guide your path in your life going forward. I used to miss the past so much. But I've realized that only the present counts. Best of luck to you guys. Realizing our inevitable single directioned passage through time is not an easy cake to swallow.

[@hannya_little]

Man I feel you here I am in the middle of my office working hours, got lunch break, decided to browse KZbin and this was recommended only to be reminded how old I am now.

[@MrJustCallMeJames]

They always sneak up on you.

[@amitbecky1826]

You helped me understand , get a realize of the pure reason of my old times that i had so fun, i was knows that but not so clearly like now. Thanks!

[@shigurekun5]

I am guilty of trying desperately to rekindle the MMO spark that I once enjoyed. I started back with Star Wars Galaxies in high school, eventually moving to WoW in 2006. When you mentioned looking back at my fondest memories, the thing that stood out the most wasn’t so much the event, but the people I played with. The friends, rivals, and enemies I made in the game still stand out the most to me. The bickering on Endor that turned into a fight with my rival, where I came out victorious in the duel. The houses that we as a guild decorated in our city on Dantooine. Or our first kill on Mimiron where it was just myself as a resto shaman and our tank alive, and I managed to kill the head, heal, and we defeated the boss. But I look back at that, and many of those people that made me enjoy the game have left. Of the original guild mates, I was the last one playing. Now I am married, have step children, and the thought of having to log in every day for an hour or 2 for dailies to keep up and remain competitive in a raiding roster is just not appealing. Increasingly convoluted raids with so many mechanics to remember turns what I used to enjoy into a second job. It sucks realizing that the games are changing, and not always for the better, but I’m changing and getting older with those games. The school days are long gone and never returning. Life slowly becomes more convoluted, stressful, and busy, meaning less time to dedicate meaningfully to a game that requires substantial time invested, especially early on or you “fall behind”.

[@stranger.granger]

When I was a kid, riding my bike in the street with my friends was the most amazing and fun thing ever. They just don't make good bikes anymore.

[@goblinphreak2132]

this literally shows his hypocrisy and stupidity. bikes haven't actually gotten worse. they got better. however, games today have actually gotten worse. dumbed down to fit a wider audience. look at New World from amazon. They promise one thing, then realized it was too niche for profits. So they completely changed their minds and took the game into a new direction. A generic direction. which proves video creator is a moron.

[@Thobbit8]

@@goblinphreak2132 Yea No.

[@TheGladGolem]

@@goblinphreak2132 Whooooosh!

[@pitching]

@@MrOuttheir games are getting worse with being easier like mmo on moblie with auto attack/walking without even trying and buying mount/outfits without grinding for it or adding bots in games like fortnite or coming out with AAA game being broken like fallout 77 , cyberpunk , anthem , WWE 2K20 , Warcraft III: Reforged , Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 5 and so on ....... every decade more AAA Games come out broken

[@datnillavondizzle]

You mean kids used to actually go outside to play?! What planet are you from?

[@reven4215]

This may hold true for some people but for me its something else. As a kid I was limited to 1 hour of computer time a day and I had no friends, currently as an adult I could dedicate 8-10 hours or more a day to games while stuck inside if I wanted and I have a tight group of friends to play them with but I'm not getting the enjoyment I once had. A huge part of why old MMOs felt so great was because the world was full of mystery. Playing your first MMO as a kid before KZbin and streaming you didn't know what to expect in this massive world. You were used to playing single player games with maybe the occasional LAN or online if you were lucky. The idea that thousands of other people from around the world were all playing with you was novel for the time. Jumping into an MMO now cant capture that feeling because you have reviews, KZbin videos and streamers spoiling it for you. You've got all the information and secret about the game one google search away. You know how MMOs work and you've been playing online games for years. The Mystery is gone and it wont come back. Its really sad but at least those of us that experienced it can look back on the memories we made fondly. I feel bad for the newer generations who wont be able to experience things like old MMOs and the old internet.

They can't spoil the game for you if you don't watch the videos.

[@maazypaaz]

10000% this. Its the mystery, the adventure, the desire to explore untouched territory. Now every streamer with a prereleased copy launches a full review and easter eggs in 10 secs 10 months before launch date. RUnescape, all you had was the online forums, that you had to UNLOCK to figure out how to do certain quests. World of Warcraft was a completely different beast entirely. Wizard101 was also really good at this, as the only hints you had were on forums. I think we can recapture the MMO landscape if an MMO companies straight up Ban ingame footage on youtube. Therefore, you are stuck only using forums and your brain.

[@hugofontes5708]

same story, same feels, except I had 3 hours instead of one

[@TheOriginalSkyGuardian]

You also have more jerks playing and bullying the noobs when they are trying to learn about the game(s) they are playing and not wanting to rely on wiki or KZbin. It sucks because the jerks take all the fun out of it. I play Wizard101 and am a high level and even though I am at 115 there are jerks who STILL call me a noob or jump into the battles and try to tell you how to play because they think others are idiots. It's really stupid and idiotic. I help those who need help and am nice to everyone who is respectful. That is how it should be. Play like you are a kid. Not like you are a bossy little jerk.

[@JesperRoos]

@ it can because everyone else watches the videos and force it upon you.

[@sgtjonmcc]

For me it was ALWAYS playing with everyone I actually knew, there were 5 of use and we all played together, and were in the same guild and raided with each other. But it was also exploring the world of Azeroth, finding all the dungeons, and secret places.

[@TranceCore3]

most fun I ever had in an MMO was back in the day called Mabinogi. Based on your accent, the UK didn't have the game for too long. Everything down to the combat and mechanics in the game that makes it so good to me. And when I don't like playing and feel like being social, I could compose music in the game.

[@JohannLudwigEdel]

Best moment: Warhammer online, defending a keep with only 11 people against 100+ for over 4 hours.

[@MsHojat]

Eh Warhammer online was decent, but really had a bunch of issues with being quite stale. I think another issue was balance, and I think your comment kind of touches on the balance issue.

[@dksgalaxy2268]

Dude yess

[@JohannLudwigEdel]

@@MsHojat Balance wasn't a problem, I had 3 accounts. 1 with all chars maxed out, best gear. 2 with random chars i leveld and deleted over and over again to enjoy t2 and 3 while helping out newbs organizing pvp groups. 3 with t1 twinks fully kitted out. So I have a quite clear understanding of the balance between the factions and classes. And while it never was perfect, it was perfectly serviceable at all times even when people were complaining 247 about supposedly broken classes. Most balance complaints came from people getting outplayed without them noticing. Even the whole faction number imbalance stemmed from people following blindly a few videos/threads proclaiming order as overpowered. So overall quite standard for an mmo. Stale content, well it was a mixed bag with quite a lot stale pve quests that I couldn't agree more but pvp quests and pvp in general I found really entertaining. Sadly mythic put the game on the back burner directly after release and the skeleton crew focused on the wrong priorities, so it never got the content it deserved to have more of.

[@FredAureus]

Warhammer Online is alive and totally free to play on the Return of Reckoning server.

[@kelpyg162]

Every MMO ive played in the last few years was just a solo experience with other people running around. I remember playing DDO back in the early 2010s and in every tavern was full of people, all talking in chat and trying to get things going. People were wayyyy more interactive with eachotehr back then and i dont know what changed.

[@craidiefin]

we optimized the fun out of the game.

[@faithful360]

Kelpy G you hit the nail on the head! I completely agree. In addition, I don't think it's a "your life sucks" as Josh seems to constantly hammer home, it's that games are designed significantly differently in that you're the hero now, a God like entity that no longer really requires a group to do things, that interaction has been engineered out of gaming is just sad.

[@elimayfield9458]

for me its time. i dont have the time i did back then to wait around in a tavern or in a city to find a group.

[@xXAkirhaXx]

Have you tried playing FFXIV? Things are going on 24/7 here. And I'm not some young first time MMO player. I played Everquest before PoF, when Yakeshas were the end all be all of weapons. You just have to put yourself out there. I mean, ESO actually has people RPing in taverns all over the place, and often.

[@pullt]

People still gather in the taverns, they just talk to their friends, of which you are not....

[@syclonepanda1047]

This makes so much sense. I've been having a lousy time jumping from game to game to try and recapture the early days. I have a story. My first MMO ever was Perfect World International back in like 2008 and I was ADDICTED! I could not wait to log in every day after school. Although I wasn't able to all the time, because at that time, the only PC we had in the house was in my parents room. I met my first online friend and we were inseparable. We exchanged phone numbers and would talk all the time as we were roughly the same age. The best part was that his mom and dad both played as well and I remember just thinking his dad was the coolest guy in the world because he was such a high lvl and had amazing items. For birthdays and such, they would gift me cash shop currency and or in game items and we just had a hell of a time playing together all the time. I still remember his dad's character name. He was a lvl 84 Barbarian named Masta_Windu. I only felt that way one other time when I started playing WoW late Wrath early Cata. Got addicted to that and met a lot of great people that I raided with weekly and everything. Such good times. I've grown to be more introverted as I've gotten older which has definitely made it very hard to branch out of my current friend groups to join guilds and such even though I really want to. None of them feel as amazing as the first guild I was in, or had the same magic of meeting a friend and becoming best friends online. Anyway, sorry for the long winded response. I just wanted to give my story :)

[@verablack3137]

The most fun I ever had in an MMO was when I ran an alliance and co-ran a coalition in Eve Online, and we decided on a whim to take some sov. Hit and run tactics, full on David and Goliath style, and we had FC coverage for all time zones. It was great, but it was also basically a full time job, it worked while I was unemployed, but now it is everything I can do to claw back 5 hours a week to play games. The most I can do is some solo PVP occasionally. Solo is okay, it is still a decent PVP game, but without the time to invest to actually be an active FC, leadership role, or CEO it just doesn't have that appeal.

[@dhunter1133]

As someone who's played MMOs for nearly twenty years - starting in his 30s as a married man with an established career - the biggest change I've seen in the genre is the change from just having fun to chasing the achievements. At its core, MMOs are about cooperation with an online family; when the bar for success is low-to-moderate, you don't have to be picky about who's in that family. Maybe your solid performer won't play without his low-performing wife; in a low-bar scenario, that's okay. But when you're chasing achievements and legendary modes, suddenly, you have to start excluding people and the "clench factor" for those who remain goes up. Instead of relaxing with a few drinks, now you need to be wired and have your shit together. So what happens when you're a hardcore player who suddenly develops age-related disabilities? You're tossed out on the side of the road. "Sorry man, hope you get better, but we can't carry you anymore." That hurts. And it further hurts when you go to a social guild with some moderate success that's constantly losing its best people to progression guilds, because you're little more than a feeder guild. At a point in time, you realize that the sense of belonging and comradery you had has been lost, because of pointless achievements and gear reskins that people think are so important.

[@Veelq]

Achievements ( as a design system ) are very damaging to the games we play today, especially mmo/virtual worlds type because they ( as well as many other design decisions ) take away yet one more decision from the player - the decision to decide on what is an achievement for me. That is a very big decision, game defining in a sand box type of a game i would say and its taken away by some arbitrary system that tells me what is and what isnt worth doing, its basically a system that tells me what is fun and what is not ... and thats scary. And as you said - it can even spark some toxic situations between players that want to play together.

[@louisms5068]

Spot on I’ve been playing mmos since my mid 20s and I was always working. My best memories are from Everquest and Daoc cause those games make you have to work together. New mmos are single player games with other people in them. The old mechanics are outdated and qol is nice but some of it is just silly and too much.

[@LuisSoto-fw3if]

True. With all the mechanics, different builds, and stuff you have to play MMORPG as your second Job to get ahead. I remember playing Lineage 2 and even though was grindy AF, it was fairly easy and straightforward to play. If you want gear, just logging in once in a while to your clan, play sieges on weekends, and some small raid parties used to be enough to get the gear. Hell, my dad and I got up to grade A equipment (when S was the highest one) all by ourselves in like 3 characters, and we just had fun killing mobs and spoiling them for mats. Now the grind is boring AF, since all you do is repeat the same dungeons hoping RNJesus gives you the piece you are looking for. It's much more fun when you had a "to-do list" to get the item you wanted. Recipe: Check Key Mats: Check A gazillion normal Mats: Check = Profit.

[@dhyde9780]

For me. I think it's the social structure. MMO's are pretty toxic now.

[@ivylilybasket]

@@dhyde9780 I agree. I was a raider in wow in top 150 guild at some point. Then the guild disbanded because leadership got bored. Suddenly I was going to guilds with much lower rank and being scapegoated into being "the one who holds progression back" not because I was a bad player, but because every guild I joined had the inner clique who "can do no bad" and outsiders who were assigned the worst jobs and blamed for everything. I tried 3 guilds until I called it quits, seeing the same pattern over and over and again. I tried to be nice, helpful, cooperative, do the "b* jobs" to climb the social ladder, to not avail. I was ditched 3 times after months of loyalty, 2 times at the very last boss of the current raid, which I then killed with another guild proving myself I can do it... but I was sick and tired proving people I'm not a donkey and being told times and times again "yknow you're actually a donkey, bye". My SO quit not so long after, again the guild disbanded due to officer burn out and the saddest farewell people told to the guild was "shame we're disbanding, this was the only guild without people being homophobic, transphobic, women haters, n-word spammers or making anal jokes". Then I realized how low has the bar sunk. I guess I'm too old to mesh with the "cool kids" anymore.

[@phelipeperegrino8424]

Oh, man, you brought tears to my eyes when you were describing the joy of playing in early childhood, jumping into bed when the sun rises through window and you realize that is already morning and you have 2 hours of sleep before school. It hit me with memories of almost 20 years ago, me and my guild playing Ragnarok Online.

[@stevenmcsteven6693]

Its absolutely true what you say about the real life being a factor to enjoyment in games, but having every MMO become a pile of microtransactions bull sht doesn't help either. Long gone are the days of MMO where you had to grind 100 hours for the best and cool looking items, now you just swipe a card and it has become the standard. Subscriptions are just not enough anymore

[@OnetastyJoe]

I think people underestimate this so much even with the outrage for the monetization. Its just completely unacceptable. What made the original wow cultivate such a large playerbase is the respect it gave to the players. What you did in the game was never something that others could just buy their way to. Sure gold selling was a thing even back then but it wasnt something the company encouraged and they did ban people for it, giving a clear sign to everyone else. Even the original wow would have never gotten this big and not even as big as it was if the game threw all those microtransactions at the players from the start. Original wow also never had this "game starts at 60" mentality at the start, it was exciting from start to finish. You cant just give people a way to buy their way to the top and expect them to respect you for it. What monetization does to the mentality of the playerbase is why it is so unacceptable when it comes to respecting the players.

[@joshuajohnston90]

This was a truly heartwarming piece to watch. I thoroughly relate to most everything you say. You make some very great & valid points. Presentation is well done. I appreciate your work more than I can say. Keep it up brother.

[@lairizzle]

This is a big true. It’s literally the ability to play uninterrupted for 12-15 hours with 0 responsibilities that allows you to escape and live in the world. Most of us who are older now; wives, children, jobs, homes, etc. You can’t fall into the world as deep when these things are constantly taking you out. As I’m writing this my wife literally asked me to help her do something. I can’t even write a comment lol

[@JustDaZack]

100%! I managed to life like that until a year ago and now it's hard to imagine ever finding so much time again.

[@cali4806]

Lol same bro, same... *cries while vacuuming*

[@renzokuken631]

Yep, true. And now I have to go to work. /cry

[@ouchhurts]

ya but our parents fell into those games while raising us our lifestyle hasn't changed inflation has forced us to give up some of our hobbies to stay alive.

[@elitistnoob9564]

100% this! my MMO career now basically boils down to just doing mundane solo things, because I can never get 15 uninterrupted minutes to do any kind of group content.

[@loftus4453]

My husband and I started playing mmo’s in our 30’s. We had full time jobs, a child, our own home, dogs, a cat and even a horse. Lots of responsibilities. We started playing WoW with our son in 2005 and the magic of that game pulled us in just as it did those of you who were younger without all those responsibilities. So it’s not solely due to age/level of outside responsibilities! We still play mmo’s today, but I agree the magic of those early days is gone.

[@markp2085]

I started playing video games back in the early 80's. In college I really got into MUD's. I use to run a BBS and had turn based games people could play against each other. Everything was so new and exciting. Today that newness is gone. Do not get me wrong, I love playing games like Black Desert Online, Guild Wars 2, The Elder Scrolls, etc - but they are all kind of the same. Been there done that. Shoot, I remember when playing my Sublogic Flight sim on my TRS-80 was so exciting with its 5 FPS and maybe 100 x 100 resolution in the stunning color of white on black. Man, that was sooo fun.

[@JasonfromEarth]

Well said. EQ was my 1st love. I've been playing on P99 for ~10 years now and it's great. I only played the game for ~6 months at launch but it was enough to change me forever.

[@Tigerradde]

P99 is great. When i started there it was a coming back to EQ after 15 years. First thing my woodlef druid did was... falling to death. Damn you Kelethin. But i still have a blast playing it from time to time.

[@Simple_Caster]

I played a lot of Ragnarok Online from Highschool thru college. (Looking forward to you doing a video on it!) Compared to newer ones, they seemed to be more difficult back then. No fast travel, no easy exp sources and the absence of dailies forces you to play social and make new acquaintances and focus of raids and levelling. The absence of online guides and such gave it a rich feeling of discovery and exploration. They haven’t perfected the art of pay to win and strictly made money from player subscription and created a balanced end game and gave you the feeling that everyone has a chance. Players were very social and I made a lot of friends who I still talk to this day. Nowadays, I’m unable to commit as much time as I used to due to adult stuff and I feel you hit the nail right in the head with lifestyle being the determining factor

[@SomeGuy-nd1dz]

Nah, I have more friends now than back then when I was lonely as hell and depressed, yet I am not having fun now, especially not while playing with my friends who just focus on doing checklists and stupid mobile game-like chores. But you are right, its not the game. Not me either. Its the way we play these games. We watch Twitch and KZbin videos about the game, absorb all the info and perfect strats, and then just work on "finishing" the game. Back then, when you played Everquest, you were lost. We can't go back to that time, information is thrown at us and you can't escape it, and games are designed now around you having absorbed all this info anyway. Thats why to this day the most fun you will have with a MMORPG is on launch day for the first few hours before everyone figured everything out already. You can still relive those glory days.. . For about 5 hours on a game's launch. After that, you go on KZbin, you go on Twitch, you go on Discord and its information overload, no more secrets, no more thinking required, just do what this dude or that guide say, check off the tasks, and thats it. And even if YOU ignore that stuff, your friends and 90% of the playerbase won't, so it still affects you. When you join a group to finish a dungeon, you better already know everything in that dungeon or the group will hate you. No social interaction required, its all about efficiency. And that's why MMORPGs are your part time jobs now, not games.

[@poisonated7467]

THANK GOD. FINALLY. IVE BEEN SAYING THIS AND MORE FOR YEARS. THANK GOD SOMEONE FINALLY GETS IT. There is even more to what you say, trust me. You are correct though.

[@AvgiEfexis]

bruh, just dont watch those guide, explore at your own will

[@poisonated7467]

@@AvgiEfexis You clearly dont understand then. Its a community game. Sure, it may help with his personal experience just slightly, but it makes a huge difference when the whole population is fixated on knowing and doing things perfectly and getting to end-game as fast as possible. Take Classic WoW for example, in some guilds they FORCED you to get world buffs to raid or you'd either get kicked from the raid or even the guild. Didn't use DeadlyBossMods? Better to fill that slot with someone who has it. Didn't use questie to level up as fast as possible? Then, "you're playing the game wrong". No matter what way you look at it, being bombarded with information is the WORST thing you can do to an MMO community.

[@AvgiEfexis]

@@poisonated7467 maybe i play mmo differently than most people, i casually play them with my friends, my knowledge came from them telling me personally and vice versa, we don't really watch or read guides and strats to be perfect, bcs it feels more like a chore than having fun, we don't really play to be the top, we just.. idk having fun exploring together. i guess your perspective about how to play mmo and friend group that you play with matters too. at the end of the day, some people like the current state mmorpg and some people don't, and that's fine, just enjoy it our own way.

[@poisonated7467]

@@AvgiEfexis I would encourage you to go try the private server Project 1999 for Everquest then. I think it will change your mind on MMOs, but besides that P99 recaptured my love for MMOs after playing WoW for 15 years. WoW was my first and favorite MMO. P99 EQ took that spot within two weeks of playing it. It taught me a TON about MMO game design and game design in general. Oh, and bring some friends along because the world of Norrath isn't so forgiving. =)

[@forwatching6708]

Alternative video title "why you will never be that happy again"

[@GC_Rallo]

Took your test, played Classic EQ even though I really started playing MMOs with WoW, had way more fun than any modern MMO has given me. I made friends, got frustrated after dying in hard to reach places, felt accomplished after completing a questline for a class armor set or weapon, had friends help me out along the way and was there to help them in return. That doesnt exist in today's MMOs because it isnt required, nothing is difficult other than end game "veteran/heroic" difficulty content. Not having that higher difficulty content throughout makes it a waste of time to try forming friendships, just hit the Dungeon Finder window. Solo players arent to blame for this though, playing solo used to mean you didnt have a set group to play with all the time, not that you never spent a moment forming any sort of relationship inside the game. Several of my friends could be called solo players, though they still interacted in chat and would group up when they had the time and when they NEEDED to. The complete removal of difficulty or any reason to reach out to other players defeats the point of the MMO, the only reason to put up with the inferior/boring combat systems and grindy progression is to accomodate other players, if you are going to have zero interaction with them, you're putting up with all that for nothing when you could be playing a single-player game that offers a far superior product in terms of combat and story.

[@captmcneil]

I partly agree. The lightheartedness of logging in and just doing anything, letting things happen happen, rather than being invested in progressing and raiding and whatever is certainly individual and something that never comes back. I would also argue, this is where (for most people) the memories are from. However I would also say, older MMOs (and I mean, including classic WoW, for example) allow more for that. Granted, there are different opinions about this, like Noxious talking about immersion (does the world feel like a "world"? Does it feel dangerous? Does it make you feel small? Etc.) or MadSeasonShow arguing about balance (or rather the lack thereof). But even in your own MMO reviews of newer games, I felt there were recurring critical points (other than monetization), like being too much 'a visitor' of the content (notably Rift). In short, I think a slower pace allows for more things to happen. And modern games are incredibly fast-paced. This is also the core difference between WoW Classic (up to, let's say, 2008/2009) and Retail. Yes, people are still having a great experience in various modern games. But I don't see any MMO using today's established design principles ever getting 12 million paying subscribers, years after its initial release, again.

[@critiquegeek7987]

To a certain extent, I agree that older games are not necessarily "better" games. However, the argument that this is because of changes in our individual lives is not accurate either. As others have pointed out, some people actually have more free time now than they did when playing the old school MMO of their choice back in the day. In my opinion, the problem with MMOs is largely tied to a greater cultural shift that has occurred beyond gaming. The entire world is increasingly about instant gratification. The focus is on the destination, not the journey. The MMOs of 20 years ago reflected a different time in our entire culture, in which the internet was still relatively new and everything occurred at a far slower pace (again, not just talking about video games here). I believe that the reason people feel so passionate and nostalgic for those early MMOs is because they represent a unique period in human history; the internet was now something stable and prevalent enough that we could play in persistent online worlds with hundreds or thousands of other people, but the internet culture had not yet become the cynical tool that it is today. So yes, I also long for the old days of MMOs. I fondly remember logging in just to explore a random part of the world or to hang out in town with friends. We *existed* in these early online gaming worlds in a way that we do not now. This, I believe, is the core of the nostalgia people feel for those games. They weren't just "games". So yes, the modern MMOs may objectively be better "games", but they cannot hold a candle to the experience of existing in a living, breathing fantasy world.

[@SephirusOakborn]

Wise words! I support your oponion. It is like people's nostalgia about 80's or 90''s. It was all about the journey, not the goal.

[@benkelly7182]

MMOs changed but we’re missing the part that we changed too. Great post.

[@blakecarson6555]

I was chewing on many of the same points you mentioned while watching. I'm glad you've written this to communicate a counterpoint to the videos ideas.

[@gathasofpersia6432]

Many years have past..................but, I STILL remember the quintessential moment in gaming: Warcraft, some 10 years ago. The scene, a dungeon run. A group of hardcore players, talking in game about the challenging run to be made and.................wait for it.................. here comes "Leeroy Jenkins" !!!!!

[@ViniTheCrazzy]

@@SephirusOakborn retrowave!!! i love soo much synth! my lately years get a eletronic music to pure synth retro vapor waves styles... is much more fun than the new shithole outthere

[@TN51234]

I was less or not at all depressed 10 years ago so that was probably the case, was easier to socialize with people, now its hard to even say "hi" to stranger in the game.

[@jimmythecrow]

arent all adults depressed? i think we are. This......is life.

[@Mehric]

I agree with you both. I used to chat up people all the time in the early 2000's, now it's hard for me to join groups or guilds in any new game I try.

[@Capt_Dango]

With you on that, even when I try to join a guild and make an attempt to talk to everyone, the motivation quickly fades when that voice in the back of your head keeps going "you'll never fit in with them, they're just nice to everyone they dont actually care" or or crap like that. Though I recommend you keep trying. If you find a game you really want to sink some time in, look for a guild and just join and see what happens. Keep guild chat open, partake in their events, post on any social media they have, etc. And if it doesnt work out, whatever, try joining another. Hope you find that one group that are so great, you'll forget your anxiety and start talking without even realizing. Good luck.

[@Dubtoy94]

@@Capt_Dango I like that, thanks for the advice

[@danielengel4593]

Sad but true, I play WoW solo, even if I joined a guild monts ago. No voice chat no raids, just random solo stuff that I can do in any other non MMO single player game.

[@jons787]

As a 40-something gamer with lots of responsibilities and limited free time, I am glad that many new games (including MMOs) have difficulty adjustments, instant saving, and alternatives to Souls-like grinding. It lets me enjoy fantasy and MMO games more with what little free time I have. I’m glad I can still play these games rather than having to give them up because I don’t have infinite free time and a messed up sleep schedule.

[@thorbrigsted5580]

I almost agree. I think what changed isn't just ourselves, but the players as a whole. The people playing were more adventurous, less meta. My best memories always revolved around the people i were playing with, not about my own situation. I still have amazing MMO experiences to this day, but in few select games where people are still socializing as they did back then. The reason why new games are hated is because they're no longer catering to a small niche, but to a wide range of gamers. As you mentioned, a lot of more recent games offer handholding, and that is a big part of the reason i think. Without handholding, you seek the help of your fellow players, in-world, and that's how the good stuff begins.

[@KurumiXIII]

I'll never forget the feeling I had when I played my first MMO. Everything felt so new, the possibilities felt endless and magical and making friends in it was super cool. I spent a long time after the magic wore off trying to find the next thing that could capture the sense of wonder and excitement that game first gave me (though never did quit the first) and it just never existed. It took a lot of games to finally realize that I really WON'T be able to have that first experience again, because being the first was what made it special. The closest I've come to replicating that experience was when I finally got into FFXIV and made tons of new friends and saw similar world building and map designs to the ones that had captured my interest in the first place. I think once you come to accept that it's a LOT easier to actually have fun and get into what they offer now, as opposed to chasing old ghosts that just can't be re-created. Great vid!

[@Alex_M.R92]

I'm about to start my first mmo. I am a console player and I only love campaign games. I usually play games for their story. But I want to give multiplayer like mmos a chance cause they look awesome. Please can you recommend fun one that have friendly people on it.

[@Shinigami41395]

@@Alex_M.R92 Guild Wars 2 has a lot of focus on story, very friendly and helpful players, and a wide variety of content. The base game is free to play, so if you don't like it, at least you didn't waste any money, but if you do like it, the expansions are reasonably priced.

[@Alex_M.R92]

@@Shinigami41395 will give it a try. Thanks

[@Cazvolaine]

UO, EQ, AO, AC, The Realm, Meridian 59 ALL Came out during a time when talking to people on the internet was a new and exciting thing. We may have grown up and have busy lives now but the entire sociology of interacting with people on the internet has changed and the strata of that is something MMOs fall under.

[@thegamesforreal1673]

This so much. People tend to point at the lack of social interactions in modern MMOs, or the microtransactions, or the "dumbing down" of the game, and sure each of those are factors along with many other in-game things, but the biggest factor that goes under the hood is internet culture in general... Online culture has changed DRASTICALLY over the last 10 to 15 years, and the early MMO's all flourished when online culture, and especially gaming culture, was a lot less min-maxy, a lot less toxic (still toxic but not as much), and in general just a more chill mindset...

[@Andreas_42]

I agree, the possibilities of the internet and online gaming were new to me. I got my first internet provider for Diablo 1, and I can remember my excitement to be able to chat with people from all around the world for the first time. Today I'm used to it. As for the genre of MMO, I've kind of seen it. It was new, it was fun, but it got boring after a few 1000 hours. I moved on. I still enjoy playing online with my friends, but I don't need a giantic community to communicate with.

[@Cazvolaine]

@@Andreas_42 As I always say while waving my hand "I've slayed the mightiest dragons and I've saved the prettiest princesses."

[@blakebruner5038]

That is such great point. I was about 11 years old when EQ came out, and I distinctly remember it being one of the very first things I ever did on the internet. In fact online gaming is what made the whole concept of having internet make sense to me. There wasn't a lot to do on the world wide web for a kid in the 90s. I had just recently been introduced to the AOL Instant Messenger, so you can imagine that firing up EQ and being able to instantly communicate with other people's avatars IN A VIRTUAL WORLD blew my mind. I have no doubt that this greatly amplified my enjoyment.

[@WaffleIronSunday]

I have many good memories playing The Realm. The vast differences of each social circle, the level of community, and the journey to 1k..

[@FrostDrive]

My favorite part of MMO experience, was in childhood just waiting half an hour for Runescape to load, while hearing that epic startup music slowly kick in, and watching the fires get lit on the login screen. Just waiting to play was the funnest part.

[@MattGamesYT]

I know this is an older video now but i've been considering going back to Warcraft after years and it hits really hard. That being honest with yourself bit is spot on, I recently left my career as a teacher to do something completely different because of exactly the reason you list here. Just wish i'd realised it so much sooner! Cheers Josh!

[@benm3382]

Just remember, there's no such thing as sooner.. you realized when the stars aligned to make you realize. This IS the sooner!

[@strangeape2461]

To me, there are 2 things that killed MMO's. 1 - Group finders and cross server grouping. That alone, imho, killed the server communities. while it maximize the time you are playing, when you join a group, no one talks for the most part. Back then, since the rest of your group was on the same server, you'd chat because we shared the same world. you built relationships. it made it so you were involved as much in the game as in the community. 2 - The advent of discord. I love discord, but the last few times i tried wow, basically the guild was more or less a guild since people formed groups and used discord to chat making the guild chat pretty much dead. it's not the only reason, nor is it universal, but it did have an adverse effect in that regard.

[@someone-ji2zb]

Most mmorpgs suck. When WoW was at its peak, all competition was mediocre. Now WoW is still on top, but it is run by corporate shills who don't care about consumer satisfaction, but rather how to best ride the fine line of people barely purchasing the product instead of long term player retention. Discord didn't kill guild chat, Blizzard did. The game has been devoid of community since mid cata, and had been getting worse. Discord at least provided an outlet for those who wanted 'something'. Bottom line is that Blizzard had and still has the power to design the game differently, but they wont.

[@CptMagnus]

I agree with #1. Especially in WoW the normal dungeons during leveling are either way to easy or you run them like 5 bln times already, so people expect you to know what you're doing and do it as quick as possible. It usually takes 10 minutes to run this dungeon with no deaths, so everything else is someone elses fault. Unfortunatly that translates to raiding as well..everything besides the last raid is "child's play" and shouldn't be hard at all. I remember, when I tried to come back for Cataclysm and wanted to join a lower tier raid, all groups demanded gear from the next two raid-tiers.

[@phaunvods]

I realized that I enjoy games more when I stopped looking at trailers/leaks. My initial love of MMORPGS came from the sense of discovery. Many games these days are "ruined" because most of the playerbase knows the entire game before they even play it.

[@TheAzureGhost]

Yea that mentality kinda drove me out of enjoying many mmo too... Want to tackle some new content? just a few minutes after someone declares that someone else comes arround with a guide how to beat that content... not to mention to constantly getting told off for not playing "optimized".... Personal player knowledge becomes worthless as long as it is not considered top of the world class as everyone has easy access to pretty much all info they need through some streamer or guide maker, making the only apreciated skills come down to reaction speed and being good at following guides/orders.... I still have fun like i had in the past in a selected few games.... but not cause the games are exactly good but cause i found likeminded players who stay away from all out of game info sources like they are some sort of plague, bringing back the experience of discovery and diverse guild roles

[@StupidButCunning]

When I think of my favorite MMO memories, two things come to mind. Both with WoW during the Vanilla/BC days. One was exploring and leveling up in an interesting land wrought with perils, often with a small group of people you met along the way and growing together with them. It took time and everyone learned to play their characters better to overcome the challenges. At times, there were moments of heroics sacrifice such as how I always cast Divine Intervention to save the Mage and let the Warlock and Warrior get away and drop aggro when a Devilsaur caught us by surprise in Un'goro Crater. Or when I told everyone to run while I kept it busy, but after fighting it for 5 minutes keeping myself alive as a Holy Paladin, the Warrior charged in to assist me and the others followed in and we took down our first Devilsaur. Building these connections and the moments that arose as a result were vital to my enjoyment whereas these days MMOs seem designed with the intent to let anyone easily solo to max level without any social interaction. Hell, half the time you can buy max level and make yourself a burden to groups because you have no idea what you're doing since you didn't go through the learning process of a lengthy level up process. This shift in the online gaming culture is one reason why most modern MMOs are not enjoyable to me. The second memory that comes to mind is of progression raiding in Black Temple. Encounters had interesting mechanics that we had to figure out on our own and work with perfect synergy to overcome. Reliquary of souls in particular. Not enough DPS? We all die. Not enough heals? We all die. Tanks not tough enough? We all die. DPS goes in too hard? We all die. Not recognizing and reacting to every specific mechanic as it happened? We all die. None of us were bitter about wipe after wipe, because we were working together to overcome a difficult challenge. This brings me back to my point on MMOs being too easy these days. I want to feel challenged. I want to be forced to group with others in more than just instanced encounters. I want leveling up to take time and every level to feel hard-fought and earned, and that it actually matters. I don't want the game to begin at max level. I want the journey to max level to be the game. I understand that what I want in a game does not appeal to the lowest common denominator, and therefore will not generate the most revenue. As such, my expectations for any future games are always fairly low. The algorithm of what generates the most profit is well-defined and honed further with each passing day, and said algorithm does not favor me.

[@Fexghadi]

Exactly this. If you enjoy challenges in video games, nowadays you have to come up with some of your own. Like, in FF14, despite what the vast majority of its toxic narcissistic community of ERP-focused casuals will tell you, even the "ultimates" are a complete joke, and anyone putting in the effort can learn and beat the fight in a matter of twenty or so hours in a group of even skill. But sadly all it takes is one slow learner to hold the whole party back, and while back in the "good old days" that person would have been told to find another party, nowadays they are being babied and hugboxed instead while not improving their focus or trying harder one bit, and it's the person who gets annoyed first by them who's the black sheep. On top of that, as you expressed, companies need to make their money and will naturally cater to the masses, leaving the high-profile raiders in the dust more often than not because it's almost never that population that will make the companies rich - they're usually better at the game than the average monobraincelled attention-starved crybaby and will not keep their subscription running 365 days a year or burglarize the cash shop. And on top of that, said masses will quickly feel endangered and belittled by anyone "too good" and will try to bring you down with them because it's easier than rising up and improving. We live in a truly sad world.

[@Tleilaxu0]

As a former dedicated casual player of WoW (as in I never cared about raids or PvP, but still played the game a whole lot), I do agree with the point about challenge. It was something that changed so gradually in the retail game that I never really noticed it, but I remember that when I tried out the private server Nostalrius a few months before it got shut down, I was surprised at how much of a challenge even non-elite enemies could be - and how much I enjoyed that. It was such a change from the then-current retail experience, and from other MMOs I played at the time like SWTOR and The Secret World. Suddenly I really had to pay attention to the world around me, making sure I didn't attract too many enemies at the same time, keeping an eye out for patrols and trying to stop enemies from fleeing and causing chain aggro. One enemy was manageable, two required cooldowns or potions, three were a death sentence. See an Elite or Rare enemy? Just run. And that's not even mentioning those occasional enemies with weirdly powerful abilities, like that one tribe of murlocs in the Swamp of Sorrows that could slap you with a -50% accuracy debuff, or the infamous Defias Pillagers. It's an overused comparison, but it all felt very Dark Souls-y. If it wasn't for the fact that ActiBlizz has become too evil to give money to, I'd be back in WoW Classic right now.

[@dougdeming3115]

So, I saw this video from Last year, and Although I can see the point that is trying to be made and I agree that Novelty is a huge part of any new experience (especially MMOs), and the concept that being younger, less tied down and more free adds to the yearning for the "Good ol' days" and how the game was a major part of that feeling. However, let me posit that there is yet another equally important thing when gauging Old MMOs Vs New MMOs. That is: How we the players and the developers interacted with one another. One of the reasons I feel like Everquest will have a magic that no other MMO will ever achieve is not because I remember lazy summer days in high school getting home from the pool with friends to then hop online and play for a few hours. That does have an affect for sure, but Everquest was inadvertently crafted as a world first, and a game second. Whether this was the intention of the developers or not doesn't matter, what matters is that once the people responsible for the content of Everquest started to shift focus from building a world, to "Balancing stats, Creating encounters, and Designing levels" rather than letting the world be what it was (and yes that means in some cases a broken mess) and focusing on the game aspects of that world, all of a sudden you get the 1-year expansion cycle (a little longer for other games) with forced power creep and new expansion junk loot replacing old expansion raid loot. See, when The Ruins of Kunark first released back in EQs heyday a large portion of the items you could get from Plane of Fear, Plane of Hate, Plane of Sky, were all still relevant, in fact, even a lot of the mid-level stuff stayed relevant with mostly only raid gear from the new content replacing the other pieces. One example of mid level gear holding its relevance being the Flowing Black silk sash, despite being an item you could camp in your low to mid 40s. This was part of the charm of Everquest, you didn't need to rush into the new content to get decent stuff and that allowed for a lot of freedom for players. The turning point started happening when players started to really look at some of the more minute aspects of gameplay and became frustrated with imbalance. Wizards were absolute trash in Vanilla - Velious, having very limited usefulness outside of raids, While Necromancers were Gods in Solo, Group, and Raid encounters, Monks were amazing and Paladins were nearly always relegated to being a back-ups, back-ups, back up tank and just standing around doing forgettable levels of DPS. Then there was the time aspect of it as well. Early on you had lots of people and lots to do but as people leveled toward the end of the content those zones became more crowded forcing long wait times and since most classes needed to have at the very least 2 other players in their group to make leveling even plausible you might be waiting around for 2-3 hours before you get a chance to play for 1. So of course the Developers wanted to change that and they did their best but I think in most of the cases EQ was built ad-hoc so much so with developers just kind of winging it, that a lot of the decisions on how to deal with the issues players were presenting weren't just "lets roll out a minor tweak to this or that and test where that gets us and make adjustments as needed" they dropped the "here is a whole new thing, hope you like it because it's not going away, and we don't really care if it breaks what made this whole thing special in the first place". Now looking at game development through the lense of experience anyone that started making MMOs after the first few games were out (the Old Guard of MMOs as it might be said) wanted to make sure that the issues experienced by players were addressed upfront, and so they built systems from the group up to accommodate that. In early WoW it was instanced dungeons with meeting stones so you could gather your group and move out faster, max numbers on raid parties to limit the zerg effect that previous games encounters would have. later it became group finder and raid finder, and then cascading tranches of mechanic heavy focus over world interaction and the distillation of player to player interactivity boiled down to "enter dungeon, everyone should know what they are doing, (they don't = freak out at the group and rage quit) (they do = everyone silently moving through the content till the bosses are killed, looted, then exit). Clearly the Devs of games weren't doing this as an intention to kill the game's appeal they were addressing real, and valid concerns but those course corrections are a very large part of why MMOs are no longer fun, and you'll likely never see another game that will be.

[@Keyce0013]

There's a joke in WoW's trade chat that I see on rare occasion: WTB friends

[@DiamorphineDeath]

Buying GF, 40 gp. Pls respond.

[@PaLcEk89]

the worst feeling is when you watch guide on yt and i says you need a friend to do it.....

[@aqualust5016]

This should be every guild's name

[@BattleToads]

@@PaLcEk89 Or when you just bought a new game and find out that its "best played with friends."

[@bevoburn]

They should participate in a friends GDKP

[@fictionmyth]

I remember when I played Everquest and they came out with the "Legacy" servers. The idea was that you'd play through the content from scratch, much like what WoW is doing with the classic servers. The primer/press release said something very poignant. "These servers are set up to give players new to the game the chance to experience the content in a way that's new to them but that hooked so many players into our world. Though, we know these servers are anticipated by the older player base, please be aware that you will likely not relive the experience you first had in Everquest. Much like you can't relive your first kiss..." I am likely butchering the quote and am paraphrasing from a memory that's around 13 years old, at a guess. It really struck me how accurate the sentiment was. "You can't relive your first kiss." You can kiss the same lips but you can't have that butterfly, nervous, scared, hopeful, excited, anticipation again. You can't understand something and learn it at the same time. (Not usually anyway.) That feeling of conquering the game from scratch is something so important. To set a personal goal for yourself, 'I want to be this and have that and do these things and join that group and...." and then meet it or exceed it. That starting out of "Where do I go? How do I do that? What should I do? That thing killed me!? That item dropped?!!" and all the rest *is* the experience. It is the distillment of fun. The people you'll meet and befriend or hate. The love you'll fall into with the world, the character, the players, and the whole. It can't be recaptured. I fully agree that the world you live in outside of the world you play it is so, so important. I still remember the joys of playing Everquest with my friends. The coming home from college or work and playing until I should have been in bed hours prior. The ISP kicking me off every night at the same time for about 15 minutes while they cleared out their cache. The hours spent on Alahkazam (I never did memorize how to spell that URL). There is just so much to list. Those moments of elation when I got something awesome. (I used to play on the Test Server. I still count the night I had a Developer give my dual-boxed characters the titles "Fiction the Sinful (The rogue) and Salvint the Sinless (The cleric)" as one of the most amazing nights of my life. I was shaking in tears happy. I know that's lame to a whole lot of people but to me, in that moment, I was infinite. (To quote PoBaWF) (I actually had their names changed to "Fiction the Myth" and "Salvint the Savior" for RP reasons that I won't go into because that's even more embarrassing.) Those little events where you checked a box that many dream of checking but never do are what makes the game. Having it be difficult or rare can make the experience more impactful, for certain, but there's so much more to it. Having those around you who appreciate your excitement and joy. Those who helped you gain those things that made you so happy. Having the time and lacking distractions to really dive into things. All of it, all of it together makes for the magic. The magic that, sadly, most of us will never recapture. Though to throw out a couple quotes... "Don't be sad that it's over, be glad that it happened at all." "A man never enters the same river twice. For it is not the same river and he is not the same man..." May all of your gaming and real-life experiences be as magical as you wish them to be!

[@justinsteele8400]

Well made point! I do think there is some nuance to it as well as far as gameplay design, but also understandable that game development changes over time. For example - old school Everquest was made to be a multiplayer game, you could solo to an extent, but it was designed for you to find groups and do content as groups. Without the existence of fast travel, and instance finders, you had to communicate with others to form groups. Camping mobs also meant downtime - you'd sit and chat with your groupmates between fighting. This gameplay design helped push the Multiplayer aspect of the game. In a game like WoW Retail - you can pretty much just hop on and solo away - you can jump in groups with instance finder where nobody even talks to each other, etc. On the flip side though, the new games being faster to level and having more time-saving mechanics has the benefit of not as strongly encouraging unhealthy playing habits. When everything took so much more time back on games like Classic EQ - you'd find yourself dumping a lot more time into it. Maybe you would be planning to get off for the night but you die and then have to spend another hour or more doing a corpse run because you didn't want to lose your items and levels. I think in most regards the new gaming designs are much friendly for people who want to play casually and still feel like they are progressing - but that older design definitely helped pave the way for the social aspect.

[@steelytemplar]

I agree with part of your thesis here - that great memories of old MMO's are a result of the game combining with a variety of other circumstances involving that time of your life. I differ in the idea that this is because that previous time was a better time. It certainly wasn't always better for me. I started playing MMO's in my early 20's. There was a lot about my life at that time which was very hard for me. Looking back now, at 40, I am absolutely happier now as a 40-year-old having been happily married for 11 years (met my wife while playing an MMO, so obviously THAT was some great memories for sure), having become established in my career, and owning a home. I think that, to me, it's more like that was the time in my life when MMO's fit for me and I also happened to meet particular people who made the experience fun. That idea of MMO's fitting into your life is a big deal, I think. My wife and I continued to play MMO's after we were married but eventually stopped. It wasn't that we hadn't enjoyed our time playing these games together or didn't have good memories of them. Rather, our lives had simply evolved so that we had other interests and other uses for our time. MMO's just don't fit now. And that's not any judgement of the MMO's themselves. It's simply how life works - that your life changes over time and it's normal for your activities to evolve. So, to put it simply, I think maybe instead of great MMO memories being from the better time in your life, they are from the RIGHT time in your life for enjoying MMO's to the fullest.

[@robquinnpc]

Early MMOs were honest experiences designed for fun. Then they learned that for player retention they had to remove the fun and replace it with repetition and content gating.

[@huldu]

Exactly. The design was different their goal was not the same as it is today. Now if someone creates a mmo the whole idea is for it to be MASSIVE and have millions of people playing. If that doesn't happen it shuts down. Also I very much agree with the repetition and content gating. Just logging into a mmo nowadays is basically to do daily chores. These things didn't exist back when I played the first generation mmos. We logged in to have FUN not to do chores.

[@madskillz1o1]

big true

[@matthewadams8294]

I tend to agree that it has little to do with free time (For me). The secret is accepting you won't recapture that feeling because it never really existed. As "Time" has passed we've assigned and reworked our memories. I've noticed things from 5 years ago are now starting to have that tinge of nostalgia to them but I can honestly look back and say "You are looking at this from rose tinted glasses". As some of us get older we are able to see so much more and it's terrifying. I think we all believed we would just stay raiding MC forever. Or that song at a concert would never end. The love we had for someone would never fade. We are starting to understand how our elders felt and feel as the world has already passed them by just as it will for us. Enough rambling. The point I guess...... Enjoy everyday to the fullest as you will likely look back years from now with that same expression. "Those were the good ole days".

[@whyisgamora4191]

Hmm exactly! Memories are constructed. Some of my favorite gaming memories are from when ARK just came out and we grinded like 100 hours in a week and had a huge base and dominated the server. My mind tells me I had the most fun I've ever had during that time, but in reality 80 of the 100 hours were spent grinding stone or metal, which was really tiring.

[@AndrewTheFrank]

Yeah I think part of it is us reworking our memories, but a part of that feeling is form dopamine dumps in our system from the game and social interactions. The more these dumps happen the more the amount of receptors change in our system meaning we have more and more trouble achieving that initial high.

[@knightmer3645]

@Matthew Adams " As some of us get older we are able to see so much more and it's terrifying. I think we all believed we would just stay raiding MC forever. Or that song at a concert would never end. The love we had for someone would never fade. We are starting to understand how our elders felt and feel as the world has already passed them by just as it will for us." Damn, This is one of the most depressing things I've heard about life. And as someone who likes his depression, I thank you both for the depressing and for the insightful part of it.

[@charlesphilips1656]

this applies to a lot of games i use to play this video is great hope you do well

[@steffanvandepoll]

I think the most fun i've ever had in an MMO was when I was raiding with a small group of my guild members (10 man raid) in WoW back in Wrath of the Lich king days. So the third expension.. it was our first time actually completing Naxxramas. And a lot of players would probably laugh this off since it's one of the easier raids back then. But for us - a casual group - back in the days when there wasn't a group finder and raid finder etc. it wasn't just a personal experience but something really shared among a group with friends. It felt amazing and just something I never forgot! I even still have a video our tank made of the fight and I watch it back sometimes to remember that evening. The coming of the group finder, raid finder etc. though mostly reduced most communication in dungeons to.. 'go go go' people would randomly pull if things didnt go fast enough and in general the whole experience became something of speed and personal gains over achieving something with a group. The other players might as well have been npc's. For me.. this is why I stopped playing WoW and a reason why I still have problems picking it up again today

[@nickalimonos3588]

Nothing beats good old' fashioned Dungeons & Dragons; started when I was 14, still play today at 46, and some of my best experiences I've had within the past few years.

[@VinciGlassArt]

This.

[@Firestar-rm8df]

Hard agree. I've fled from AAA titles, and receeded into D&D because it is a great game. The support for homebrew and fun is limitless(depending on the toxicity of the group). Sadly I've played with a lot of toxic people just because it is so hard to find local players, but despite some very, very, very unfun experiences from that, moments from those games still make up some of my favorite moments in gaming ever.

[@michaelflores9220]

@@Firestar-rm8df Wha't's home-brew?

[@Firestar-rm8df]

@@michaelflores9220 In case you aren't just pulling my leg, and for other curious, I will give a definition. Homebrew is a term used in table top role playing games (TTRPGs) such as Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder, Vampire of the masquerade, Call of Cthulhu, Windrose, and Shadowrun to name a few popular ones. It refers to the ability of tables to used their own modified rulesets as often times the official rulesbooks are treated more as guidelines. In fact, dungeons and dragons famously has a preface by Mike Mearls that outright states that you don't need to read all the rules, and that D&D is yours and will be unique to you. Though that spirit seems to be lost all to often these days, especially with the way WOC is trying to run the IP of late, but I won't get into that. Homebrew rulesets allow for infinite imagination and creativity in TTRPGs and, in my opinion, is a huge part of what makes them the greatest form of entertainment to ever exist, when well executed. If you don't like a rule it can be changed. If you don't like a bunch of rules, you can throw them out and build your own system from scratch. As game dev is my passion, I could gush for weeks about it, and even just TTRPGs specifically, but I hope to have answered the initial question and will cut myself off from rambling here. EDIT: fixed typos

[@TexasLiberTea]

Absolutely! I don't have a favorite mmo memory, I want to enjoy them but from OG Everquest all the way through ESO's latest expansion, I've never enjoyed playing any mmo enough to stick with it. Ttrpg's though, have consistently rewarded the time spent playing or running them. And I wasn't introduced to ttrpg's until well after I started trying mmo's so it's not like it was my first experience.

[@angelgarlantart]

I really love this video. My favourite part is where you mention being honest with yourself and making changes to your life. It reminds me of when I first started seeing a therapist several years ago and started talking about how I felt about myself and my life. When you are not happy with yourself, it will leak through every aspect of your life including how you feel about video games. It's very difficult to find enjoyment in anything if your motivation is to distract yourself from your personal problems and jumping from one thing to another looking for the "best" distraction. I've done a lot of work on myself to develop a healthy self-esteem and to create a life for myself that I am happy with, and from that I find that I have more fun playing video games nowadays than I did in the past. It's definitely true that your lifestyle plays a huge role! There's too many games to choose from that it can't be possible that they are all bad. Good video - reminds me how much better my life is now and how that carries over to everything including the video games I play :)

[@MotoFrenzy_]

I found your channel and been watching some videos and then this one came across and yeah I totally agree, As of know I'm actually enjoying a lot GW2 I recently got it and is a fantastic game but to be honest some times I feel a bit overwhelmed with all the side systems it has aside from just grinding, and hey Is not the games fault, is just that unlike 15 years ago or so when I first played MMORPGs I don't really have the time to dive into every mechanic of the game. Also I admit that the greatest memory I had on a MMORPG was to came back home and log in to Silkroad online with two of my classmates, we used to do everything together online just to come the next morning at school and talk all day long about how we killed that boss or about the new loot we got. We even created our own guild it was small but everyone was so chill and cool. Now as a father, and 9-5 worker damn is hard to get that feeling again but again the MMORPG are still great!

[@Goofin1]

This is a great video, I have been searching for years for the perfect MMO to help me recapture the magic of when I was 12 - 16 years old. Nothing seems to ever light the spark and this video is correct about how lifestyle and friends are the main things that made the game fun for you. I can confirm playing old school mmorpgs I have never played before are very boring to play and I don't think past video games are necessarily better but the nostalgia keeps me coming back to them.

[@bevoburn]

Author Thomas Wolfe said "You can never go home again" and he was right.

[@Elroth999]

But he lacked vision, and a temporal discombobulator

[@usul573]

I can whip up some macaroni and play Donkey Kong but I won't have quite the level of glee and not have a care in the world.

[@Augenstein]

The problem I'm having with newer MMO's is that the character I'm playing doesn't feel like MY character. In the sense that character "creation" in MMOs pretty much just means choosing a name for one of several already-made characters (maybe choose a color or two), followed by an overly-specific heroic storyline that singles out your character's place in the world despite being the same as every other player's. This did not used to be the norm. The problem is devs are creating MMOs as though they're single-player story-driven games, but with everyone playing them in the same room. Imagine if God of War were exactly the same, except you saw other Kratoses going through the stage at the same time as you.

[@ZXMirakuru]

How's that older MMOs had more special characters? same reason as the video, because people spent way too much time in the game forming communities and reputations, nowadays, that's replaced by having more knowledge about the game and switching the in game celebrities to other characters like streamers

[@Augenstein]

@@ZXMirakuru it's not that older mmos had more special characters, it's that they had more personal characters, even if bland at face-value. And a big part of that is the devs not imposing that identity on player characters, but rather leaving that in the hands of players. The idea that characters should be special is, if anything, part of the problem with newer MMOs. A good example of this issue is in Black Desert Online, a game that was hyped for it's deep character creation. No matter how many options and sliders you had, the devs had still decided that the Tamer was a petit Asian girl, the Archer was a youthful Celtic-looking man, etc... The dev's ideas of WHO these characters are. Their identifying traits and demeanor, preselected for each character type by the developers, not up to the player. And while it might seem like that's just "one MMO", I repeat that it's an MMO that was hyped on deep character customization. More often than not, when I try out a newer MMO the character creation is really just "character selection". Which of course reflects on the in-game population, just identical clones of the same cast of characters with one or two being particularly more used than others. It doesn't make the game-world actually seem populated in any sense, nor does it make the player character seem like they have any consistent place in it. You're just the "brawler" character, and that guy over there is also just the "brawler" but a few levels further in than you are. Again, this didn't used to be the norm, and really comes off like the design elements of a single-player design approach made arbitrarily "mmo". Like suit-and-tie devs jumped into the genre without knowing the difference in appeal, prioritizing "cool heroes and epic stories" as opposed to many-player interaction in a wide-open world.

[@edilangsultan3522]

Play Albion 😅

[@pbonfanti]

@@Augenstein you have a point here, they are massive multiplayer, but not 'roleplaying' as your character's personality is already defined by the devs.

[@j.joseph5353]

@@pbonfanti You ARE your character's personality. That is pretty much the only meaningful variable between two players of the same or similar race/class combo and lvl.

[@FlincherBach]

Well, Josh, its pretty great, that you combined psychology and our expectations from MMO (and all games as well). It definately very interesting to hear - how our brains works with it. Thanks for the video a have a nice day :)

[@Blobby90]

Can't believe I'm saying this but my best memory on an MMO was during World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth. Yeah, I know. I joined a premade group for the Mechagon dungeon and since it was mythic I came in very nervous, expecting people to be very hardcore/elitist, but they weren't. The tank was an absolute star who was adamant on making sure we knew what to do while still having fun. The healer was quiet, barely spoke, but never did anything to offend anyone and everyone else just had a good attitude. We wiped countless times but we'd share what we thought went wrong. As we were nearing King Mechagon we started to have trouble with mobs so for the first time in years I actually had to Crowd Control with Polymorph. Then we spent so much time on King Mechagon that we even considered quitting, it was late and we'd been in the dungeon for three hours by this time so we agreed to do one more pull of the final boss and it was like we all got a second wind. We were on point, we were flowing together and using our cooldowns correctly and finally we brought the tyrant King Mechagon down and united Gnomekind once and forever. I've been on WoW for years, since before TBC, but that was my favorite dungeon group ever.

[@shionkreth7536]

One of the biggest problems in MMOs today - you're playing them alone. Social people who still manage to make friends in games, despite modern design not being conducive to that, are the ones still enjoying themselves. I used to make tons of friends in MMOs, but after playing final fantasy 14 for over a year I made like one acquaintance. However, I've made a dozen friends just from chatting with people in post-match chat in Brawlhalla; people who then want to play other games with me. I'm the same guy with the same lifestyle, so it's a hard sell that it's me and not how MMOs are now. Dungeon finder groups with randos who treat you like an NPC that you never see again after the dungeon is over is NOT how it used to be, and I firmly believe it's killing the social experience of the MMO; which is the most memorable and emotional element of them. I'm not sure why people are so intent on minimizing or dismissing that reality.

[@astralwyrm3787]

I remember FFXIV before dungeon finder was implemented. It hollowed out all of my enjoyment of the game. Can't get a group of people together to do anything because everyone is using the finder. I gave up on it after heavensgard because if I wanted to play a single player game I can go play single player games. Which is what I have done.

[@ivylilybasket]

Preach brother! It's not that we have less time, it's that everyone around seems to be in a hurry to do their stuff as efficient as possible, making friends is harder when people have the "less talking more killing" mindset. I got scolded several times in group content because I took few seconds pause to type a reply to a whisper, guild message or party message... "Go already, what are you waiting for" etc.

[@smokinjoe4709]

I used to play SWG and to travel to another planet you had to take a shuttle. Well, that shuttle have a 10 minute wait between them so if you ran up as the shuttle was leaving, you had a 10 minute wait for the next one. I met several of my now lifetime friends just standing there waiting on the damn bus! SLOW DOWN!

[@shionkreth7536]

@@ivylilybasket Yeah, I agree completely - they actually put downtime in games in the past SO people would have a chance to socialize, and while it may have been too much in some games.. I think it was definitely important to the social experience.

[@Thes4LT]

This is the #1 reason modern MMOs aren't as good. Dungeon finder killed WoW too, and the trend today is toward solo and instanced content almost exclusively. People are divided into little social ghettos that never interact with each other and which aren't visible in the world itself. It's always really depressing to me that a game called "Guild Wars 2" has no guild wars, or really any guild interaction at all.

[@garydose129]

I agree that games were more enjoyable when we had less responsibilities and more time. Also after thousands of hours playing MMOs they are not as novel as they once were. However, after trying classic wow I think old MMOs are better because they were designed to be social. New MMOs focus on long single player campaigns to unlock social/group play (lfg is a group technically, but hardly social), and I play MMOs for the people more than the story. I can't speak for everyone, but I spent 90% of my time in classic wow in a group, but 90% of my time in retail wow playing solo.

[@jmcconnor01]

because our free time was less valuable to us back then. it's more valuable now, so now it's even moreso each of our responsibilities to choose how we spend our time in game

[@artt8381]

Try eve online

[@jhoughjr1]

@Manek Iridius not true. the most fun I had in wow were precisely because I wasn't solo. the teamwork was great.

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

exactly the same for me.. i love the social aspect not the running around in your own little bubble ignoring everyone around you..

[@zarroth]

@@artt8381 eve is garbage. I guess it would appeal to someone with OCD that likes having exactly 7 buttons to press, once every 15-20 minutes or so. The gameplay itself is garbage though. I signed up for a year based on its hype back when it was 3 years old, and I couldn't believe people enjoyed that nonsense, but I stuck with it hoping it would get better, but it doesn't. The game play loop of eve is just horrible.

[@Palmecia22]

The funny thing for me, is when you asked "what was the moment you had the most fun in an mmo" i just realised that, for me, it's all about GW2, and i still feel it to this day, it's been a whole year doing anything possible in this game for me, and i still have and i had, a lot of fun. I think, for most of people out there, wandering after being burn of the main game they had for years now, the issues always come to "Found something where you feel at home" and i mean it. It's not a matter of the game, but of the player, the exact good moment, with the exact feel and mood, and you got yourself a new home. Never just tell "This game is bad i won't play it anymore", give it some year or month, come back, and see, if your mood and your ?maturer? self would love this game. When i was younger, i hated GW2 from the start, friend tried to gift me the collector so i can play with them, and i just hated it, i created my stupid human thief, i crossed this damn bridge, watched this boring ass cutscene, and i was DONE. And now i'm here, years latter, and i've never had such a blast as i had in GW2 (i played a lot of MMO i've loved like wildstar, wow, and FFXIV, but none ever hit the spot like this game did for me). I hope my story and wall of text, will help someone sad to not feeling home in what he used to love, keep trying budy, you'll get there.

[@weebemperor5786]

9:16 is very different for me, since I've mostly played MMORPG's alone, so I'd go with the 1st option. I've played Old School RuneScape with one of my closest friends before, but not long after he showed it to me, we both pretty much quit. There was also a time when Genshin Impact first released, where me, my brother and his friend would play together and divide roles. It was really fun to do, but that didn't last long. My brother and his friend already stopped playing a month into the game, maybe even less than that, and I'm currently still playing it. It's honestly just sad that everytime there is an amazing multiplayer game that I show my friends or my friends show me, we either both quit, or I play the game alone until end-game