Why You SHOULD KILL Lucien Lachance In The Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion

[@mesektet5776]

Poor Lucien. Cicero knew the truth, the Fool always has better odds than Straight-Man, at least in The Night Mother’s service - lest she start amusing herself.

[@DarkLOREDash]

As always, you are too kind! And I do appreciate a good riddle. But what you say holds water... enough for me to remember when we get to Skyrim 😁

[@kevintech7457]

You should be a dark lore writer, captivating comment!

[@DragonWitch86]

In Skyrim, when you are going through the sanctuary to kill Cicero, if you have the Spectral Assassin (Lucien Lachance) with you, he will tell you that Sithis does not want Cicero dead. I love how they brought Lucien into Skyrim.

[@DarkLOREDash]

Great point! Do you believe its a callback to his own death? Sins of the father, so to speak.

[@DragonWitch86]

@@DarkLOREDash I've never really thought about it like that 🤔 I love that idea. He does also mention Mathieu Bellamont at other times.

[@mspionage1743]

Lucien was one of the most loyal members of the DB we ever run into only being overshadowed in that by Cicero. Both are (were) fully devoted members so killing Lucien was a major blow to the Brotherhood.

[@DarkLOREDash]

Agree fully. Murk anyone else but not your own supremely loyal following. Even typing this irritates me. I guess serving Sithis in the void was recompense for his 'sacrifice'

[@Artix117a]

Was it though? Think about it. Lucien essentially becomes "the wrath of sithis" a wraith in service to the brotherhood able to be sent to take out even the hardest targets.

[@torinjones3221]

I wouldn't mistake Cicero's delusional insanity for loyalty. He is actually mad and widely acknowledged as such. And mad people aren't loyal they're just mad.

[@CheekyBird888]

Dear Brother, I do not spread rumors, I create them -- Lucien Lachance

[@click8708]

I played as a saint and never killed innocents and if I accidentally did I would reload. It was so long before I got into the Dark Brotherhood and I thought it was just a myth (I was a naive kid) and when Lucien said that it was one of the coolest things I had heard, he was so cool!

[@Lillesmol]

Iconic

[@CheekyBird888]

@@Lillesmol one of my favorite quotes!

[@Justin-oh4ro]

7:32 I can't get over the fact that the night mother's head looks like a pnis

[@brendanlee5188]

Literally said the same thing to myself lol

[@JohnnyCaje]

sithis has a fine taste in women

[@Zer0fuks]

"this supremely left a bad taste in my mouth, and many questions...."

[@ziongite]

Yeah, that looks bad, I wonder if it was deliberately done as a joke.

[@CrystalBrightz]

Wes Johnson is a treasure! His voice has breathed life into some of the most beloved characters in gaming. 🖤

[@DarkLOREDash]

Absolutely agree! I attended his VO workshop last year. He geeked out on Lucien lines even to this day. Pure class

[@CrystalBrightz]

@@DarkLOREDash Ace!

[@LizBlizzard]

There's a mod called "Whispered Warning" or something similar that lets you spare the sanctuary members by informing them of your orders instead of killing them. It also lets you spare Lucien IIRC. Would love to see it covered in the channel!

[@loder8592]

seems like a cop-out. You can spare the members in the vanilla game by not continuing, having consequences since you also will forego any of the rewards of further DB quests.

[@LizBlizzard]

@@loder8592 The game is not coded to recognize you sparing them, so while you can headcanon yourself refusing to continue the storyline as to spare them, you will get no acknowledgement for doing so. At least the mod provides tangible feedback for your choice.

[@prosaic4195]

​@LizBlizzard clearly you haven't thought this through, just don't boot up the game so that the emperor may be spared and the oblivion crisis can be prevented.

[@LizBlizzard]

@@prosaic4195 Holy shit you right. Brb, gonna prevent a nuclear post-apocalypse by not playing Fallout.

[@kevintech7457]

This dude is a talented story teller. Dark Lore Dash embodies the spirit of Oblivion in all its glory. and i love him for that

[@MaxPowerCaulfield]

Lucien was my in-game murder husband, idc what anyone else said. I was legitimately angry when I found out what happened to him. Oblivion was such an incredible game because of those moments. The only time I had that in Skyrim was when I got the summon spell for him. It's also hilarious to hear Wes Anderson talk about voicing him, and he's super active with the fans on social media. Wes is great at his work, but just as great at engaging with the people who enjoy it. Thanks for another great video, Dash. I get what you're saying, but I can't kill Lucien lol. The best I can do is leave it unfinished.

[@ShaneBlackheart]

There's a mod you can download to have him as a companion! That's what I did after I finished the quest. He's waiting somewhere near Weynon Priory. I made my own conclusion 😆

[@MaxPowerCaulfield]

@@ShaneBlackheart I unfortunately don't have a pc for gaming, so I'm stuck on that front. I did download the Lucien follower mod on Skyrim, but it's pretty bare bones because he doesn't say anything. He's just an un-ghostly, silent Spectral Assassin. Still the closest thing, I guess.

[@blackchibisan8116]

I'll make this clear. My view of Sithis is life's alcoholic uncle. He hates the amount of noise that living things creates and just wants some damned peace and quiet and if you happen to be the nephew that makes things a little quieter he appreciates you, but the hangover makes him a little pissed all the time, even at you. You don't worship Sithis because he likes you or even rewards you. It is either because you find reward in the act of killing or because you agree with him that there needs to be less noisy living things in the world. Because before life was a thing, his existence was chill and then life happened and it has been nothing but noise since. He doesn't even seem to genuinely hate people... he just wants quiet. And it makes me almost appreciate him.

[@MysteriousStoner]

wow you just almost described me, to a t. Except for the drinking part, since i smoke, but everything else just matches. Why is it so hard to get some peace and quiet?

[@acyour]

You can hear it Lucien's comments. If you summon the Spectral Assassin when going after Cicero. He tells you repeatedly not to kill Poor Old Cicero.

[@the_ecips9692]

They def. did him dirty, I remember being so shocked and mad when I entered that house with him just hanging there. Still wish there was a way to save his life somehow.

[@BucketBoatable]

The way you are forced to follow the obviously fake orders, forcing you to roleplay your character being stupid is on level with being forced to become a werewolf in Skyrim's companions

[@YourWaywardDestiny]

Cicero is slightly _less_ expendable to the Night Mother (and by slightly, I actually mean a considerable amount less) on account of needing her physical corpse to be ritualistically cleansed when away from her crypt and all. He kind of needs to pass on the information of how to keep if she is to continue on being the Night Mother we know and love. Of course, I don't think the writers were considering that at all, but it's worth mentioning that the Nigh Mother's capacity to communicate might be in some amount of jeopardy and so she has much more of a vested interest in keeping Cicero around than she might have had for Lucien. He was only a speaker, and people talk all the time.

[@irkallla]

The way the night mother calls them straight up fools for what they did to him made the blow of his death a little less painful

[@sionnaich8340]

I'm always happy when there's a new video to add to my sleep rotation. I listen to all of these Oblivion videos every night, and since I usually fall asleep at some point during one, I get to listen to it again later. or, I'll wake up too soon and go back to sleep after I restart the video lol

[@billbillson3129]

Solid! Thank you for making and sharing your videos with us!!!

[@DarkLOREDash]

My pleasure & thank you!

[@Acid0Dreamz]

Dash in the morning hell yeah. Wish this was a long one but i'll take it. Always great work mate 😊

[@Todo_2912]

the dark brotherhood questline in Oblivion was, without a doubt, one of my most memorable and favourite questlines ever.

[@kevintech7457]

Very well structured video proposal/intro

[@DarkLOREDash]

Thank you! I actually feel like I am groping in the dark trying to express myself with an essay format. So, pleasantly surprised it wasnt a complete bust, cheers!

[@kevintech7457]

@@DarkLOREDash im always drawn in by your introductions. based on your consistent viewership and loyal audience (of which i am part), Id say you have that part locked down. Im just really hoping this new skyblivion rendition holds true to the lore and that "impactful decision making" still affects the choices of "further down the line" questlines.

[@RKNGL]

It is akin to a time traveler's conundrum. A choice of never meeting the people you love because they'll die because of you. Versus never knowing them and thus losing what made you choose to save them in the first place.

[@mb-ij2vn]

you post this title as i’m having a personal oblivion renaissance and obsessed with him…

[@mb-ij2vn]

okay i started watching the video and you make a great point, to prevent his suffering

[@LearnEnglishCanada]

I’ve got it - write an alternative way to end the Dark Brotherhood quest line. Request crowdfunding to finance making it. Have it as an optional mod for people to download to go with Skyblivion. *Honestly, that’s what we really need with Skyblivion - some mods that will change the story, so it’s not 100% the same game.

[@someonesilence3731]

Such mods already exist

[@DarkLOREDash]

1) thank you, Sean. 2) I think the premise of your idea is phenomenal! I wonder if the audience would embrace it 🤔

[@Snockooz]

It's a very bitter sweat ending. The thing is even in skyrim the dark brotherhood is nearly destroyed again. Perhaps that is the fate of those to serve the void and the brotherhood is just a constant cycle if death and rebirth.

[@jessep5280]

In Oblivion, Lucien says that the cleansing ritual is rarely performed, and that in fact, it had only occurred twice before you're ordered to cleanse the Cheydinhal Sanctuary. I think it's more that the games take place at a time of chaos and turmoil.

[@Val.Kyrie.]

I cried my first play-through. I rode so hard to try and save him 😭 In Skyrim I always conjure his spirit so I can hang with my buddy again ❤

[@Jared_H88]

I mean sure you could have killed him, but damn what a ride you miss out on if you do.

[@DarkLOREDash]

Right, I agree but damn. For his sake? I think its a mercy killing

[@Jared_H88]

@@DarkLOREDash Hindsight is 20-20. But there is no way to know what is going to unfold that first play through.

[@TwoHeadedMeerkat]

I always like going through the DB questlines for the creativity it allows when it comes to assassinating your targets. Everytime Sithis is mentioned, my thoughts are typically some variation of "Huh? Oh...yeah...that guy. Yeah, go Sithis! Give me more quests to do! I dunno, impregnate another Night Mother("

[@Mr.Classic91]

This voice actor is one of the best

[@jamiedubreuil581]

People think, becoming a great youtuber, you need to be good at editing, have a good channel idea. Be flashy.. What's always makes me interested in a channel is the youtubers voice. Your listening to someone talk for hours. You found a good niche, your voice is perfect for this, you just wear the character and it so seamless be patient hone your craft success will come. Looking forward to more videos best of luck Dash. Also "Zero Farwells given" I'm stealing that hazaaaaa!

[@alexdenton6586]

Still more oblivion , very nice , can’t get enough

[@DarkShines86]

It’s nice to know that his spirit lives on, as you can summon him to fight for you in Skyrim.

[@Gyorg-cs5dx]

Your video actually got me to compare my feelings on Sithis and the Dark Brotherhood in both Oblivion and Skyrim, to my feelings on the Nightengales and Daedric Princes. Part of making evil characters or choices compelling is making the player feel valued. The first half of Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood constantly reinforces the idea that people value your skills. You get dialogue with wacky characters. The same happens with the Daedric Princes. Sithis isn't a character and the Night Mother barely has any dialogue. Something similar happens in Skyrim's Thieves' Guild, as Nocturnal feels too disconnected to justify us swearing everlasting service. Why would I want to be treated so poorly when I could gain praise for destroying the Brotherhood or just doing other quests. Oblivion's Thieves' Guild makes you feel like a hero for breaking the law, so why choose the Brotherhood and the empty feeling. Great video as always and I can't wait to see more.❤

[@Gyorg-cs5dx]

P.S. I don't know anything about how the Dark Brotherhood work in Daggerfall or Morrowind so maybe they do some fun things with them. I doubt it would be easy to cover Daggerfall content but if you ever do, it would be awesome!

[@DarkLOREDash]

Thanks for the insight Gyorg. I can never tell if it is a shared emotion, so its cool to see you lay your experiences out. Appreciate ya!

[@DarkLOREDash]

I would love to, down the line! The lore changed dramatically for a lot of factions once Michael Kirkbride was no longer there. I believe even Daggerfall departs a lot from Morrowind too, so, its a bit of a hodge podge

[@TK--cv1uz]

I don't believe she actually knew about Belemont, I think she was just trying to save face.

[@brosephbroman7564]

Possibly. She didn't know why they woke her up. So maybe she doesn't know as much as she makes herself out to be.

[@spartanq7781]

Honestly Lucien ordering us to kill every member of the sanctuary because there was a traitor was suspect. Yet the game just expects players to not think he must be the traitor. Why kill everyone instead of just finding the traitor? It is so contrived and forced and strips the players of agency. Anyone with a brain would find that suspect and at the very question the order. The only way it would make sense is if he was the traitor taking advantage of your characters stupidity. Later when the dead drops change it is obvious something is wrong. Yet the player is not allowed to consult him over it. So were expected to play the fool. When he tells us the mistake he just gets killed without us being able to stop it if we're quick enough. Even when we have proof that can vindicate the traitor we're not allowed to say anything because Bethesda refuses to allow players to do the smart thing. The fact the the Night Mother for no real reason allowed her best servant get killed is unbelievably stupid. It really just puts a damper over everything knowing how insane and quick to kill even fellow members everyone is in this faction.

[@brantnuttall]

12:39 after playing this game quite a lot, I have just realised that this line is very close to Jon Irenicus' line in Waukeen's Promenade.

[@PZLovell]

My personal theory is that the Night Mother periodically sacrifices her children, the guild being a "family", as some sort of renewal-- maybe renewal of the guild, or renewal of the connection to Sithis, idk. I'm more familiar with Skyrim than Oblivion, but you can only get the quests (as a dark brotherhood member) that lead to the destruction of the sanctuary from the Night Mother herself. Which means that she is deliberately orchestrating the events. Bonus that it punishes Astrid, who is straying from their traditions, along with guild members who are most loyal to her. Also, if I recall correctly, there are 5 children in the original sacrifice, and 5 guild members that definitely have to die in Skyrim (with the added option to kill Cicero). Don't remember how many are killed in Oblivion though, maybe someone else knows.

[@jessep5280]

I _could_ get behind that interpretation, but it doesn't happen as often as Oblivion and Skyrim make it seem. In Oblivion, Lucien says that the cleansing ritual is rarely performed, and that in fact, it had only occurred twice before you're ordered to cleanse the Cheydinhal Sanctuary. I think it's more that the games take place at a time of chaos and turmoil. I hope the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary we serve in TES6 doesn't suffer the same fate.

[@PZLovell]

@@jessep5280 Ah, that's fair.

[@Techhunter_Talon]

Funny with Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood that destroying them is a kinder fate compared to what happens if you join them. You are told of where the Sanctuary is and after taking out everyone in there Cicero will likely happen upon scene. He'll see that the Sanctuary is compromised and likely move on to the Dawnstar Sanctuary. There he likely might be able to reform the Dark Brotherhood without Astrid to lead them astray. As for the Emperor? It's likely he'd get taken out regardless of whether the Dark Brotherhood exists or not. They aren't the only assassins for hire in Tamriel after-all.

[@DarkLOREDash]

What a phenomenal insight 👏

[@hereticpride648]

The night mother thinks Lucien is incompetent yet the pc either doesnt notice the contracts are suddenly different or is too stupid to realize they’re being setup.

[@ketrianrenolsin9608]

I agree with you. Considering how good the quest line is, it was sad to kill the assassins. Then to just be replaced with nameless ones. It would be nice if you could get the choice to kill them or go and hunt for the traitor instead.

[@Duendito]

Cicero may be a wingnut, but that doesn’t mean he’s wrong. I always spare Cicero.

[@captainhindsight6994]

Cicero lives in my skyrim playthroughs due to lucians ghost advising against killing him, id never ignore the legend that lucian is

[@CelesteMinerva]

Oh yeah, Lachance was done dirty. I think given how both Skyrim and ESOs Dark brotherhood questlines ended that a lesson was learned.

[@charlieb8735]

I think there’s an interesting question when it comes to the Brotherhood. The susceptibility of the organization to one man’s vengeance frames the entire thing as an appropriate purification of the brotherhood. At the end of the day, all the members of the brotherhood are compassionless in carrying out their murders and it’s somewhat absurd to think that Sithis or the Night Mother would value loyalty or any virtue intrinsically. Loyalty only matters if it is useful. The dutiful carrying out of orders without question was what led to Lucien’s death. I think theres a strong likelihood that “The Night Mother” is Mephala. Her penchant for secrets and betrayals would make a lot of sense. A lack of name for the Night Mother in the original story of her death as well as the significant gap of time between the alleged tale and the beginning of the brotherhood feel like a typical ghost story. The idea of a religion built off of an urban legend would fit with the opinion expressed by the creator in the video. It also makes sense as adapting the Morag Tong to better operate in a place that doesn’t have the same view of Daedric princes. The Black Sacrament only refers to the Night Mother and specifically references “sins of the unworthy”. That seems to be what was at play with her seeming indifference towards the traitor at the rose to highest echelon of the brotherhood.

[@lukehutchinson499]

They dropped the ball with the ending of oblivions DB questline, and they didn’t even pick the ball pack up for Skyrim’s; it was awful

[@GrievousReborn]

My least favorite part about the Oblivion Dark Brotherhood storyline is killing all of the other Dark Brotherhood members

[@rabeccalous1779]

I'm only a minute in and I really am hoping there will be a "I'll kill him when I get Lachance" pun

[@extermulator5869]

The night mother knew Astrid was betraying the brotherhood as well and said nothing

[@elevencharlie9549]

I think what makes the dark brotherhood quest line so remarkable is that it exists in a game where you’re forced into the hero role. I suppose you could refuse to do the main quest line, but let’s be honest, the main quest line is amazing as well. Oblivion lets you be evil, when so many other games of its kind wouldn’t consider anything remotely like that. And it’s not just flippantly evil, it lets you explore the moral grey areas, and heavily rewards for murder. It pays to be evil. But as I think back on the quest line, I remember how bad a taste the ending left in my mouth. So bitter with hardly any sweetness save for the incredible loot. But I suppose you could consider that the cost of being evil. Also that murder mystery house party is pure genius. The best quest in oblivion other than the final quest for the thieves guild.

[@dreadnaughtvcn6932]

Ive always found the ending useful as a story device. Typically ill have a character go full circle. Drop off the Amulet but martin isnt my problem, I go looking for work fitting an escaped prisoner and enlist in the thieves guild. Eventually once im far enough through that questline ill do the quest for the crazy wood elf in Skingrad. He pays well.. whats a body or two for lots and lots of coin? After murdering his targets for money im contacted by lucien. At the end of the storyline I always feel betrayed, used and without family. This does not sit well with my character. After time I finally listen to the prophet in anvil and discover there is redemption possible and there is true family under the nine, cleansing my evil on the pilgrimage. From there, so much more is possible.

[@jeffdroog]

Let's go!

[@Tibbles97]

I think the Brotherhood questlines are done perfectly in that any choice you make regarding them makes you feel evil, and the chaos and imperfections help define the Brotherhood. The only morally right choice is the repeated trope of destroying the Brotherhood and missing out on a whole questline, but we all enjoy being deliciously evil a little too much to resist don’t we? 😈

[@The_Sharktocrab]

My man

[@Mutepoet379]

It’s funny to think that what is largely considered as the best questline in oblivion would have been missed by so many people, if the game didn’t have the bug that counted your duel with the depressed grey prince as murder

[@dragondice9201]

My question is and I need to figure this out for myself because I’m actually planning on doing this. Yes you could kill Lucian and rip the awards that are what he carries on him like his cloak and sword and other things but is it possible to kill him after you kill Rufio? Would it still stop you from going forward into the quest lying, I mean, likely it will, but could you imagine if you could enter the dark brotherhood sanctuary not knowing the codeword to get inside and wipe everyone out like in Skyrim? or could you even go forward with the quest line with them not knowing you killed Lucian? I don’t know?

[@sethcourtad8733]

Most of Oblivion’s storylines don’t really have the flexibility for multiple endings, which is sad but really shows how far AAA titles have come. I’ve always wished I could spare one or more members of the cheydinhal sanctuary, but I think it’s intended to be part of the shock of playing through the dark brotherhood. There’s precedent with the argonian shadowscale for killing people that are friends but that the organization wants dead, and all of the members are explicitly really evil(unlike in Skyrim, where several killers are more victims of circumstance like the vampire who primarily kills pdf files.) I think there’s also a cruel kind of symmetry in bellmont and the night mother. The night mother murders her children and continues to sacrifice them for her own gain, meanwhile Belmont(the villain?) is willing to sacrifice everything in pursuit of avenging his mother, and primarily kills murderers. You could argue that Belmont is serving sithis as much as the night mother.

[@j2c695]

Oblivion I constantly revisit over and over. It’s a shame we will never get a game from Bethesda that is as good as this! Especially give how Starfield went. Emil is also given tons of other videos that have made me not like him as a person. Cheers dark!

[@elvangulley3210]

He's a shit writer tod hangs onto because tod is a shit developer we went from masterpieces like daggerfall and morrowind to skyrim fallout 3 fallout 4 fallout 76 and starfield

[@99lad]

yeah, I never do the kill quest, and where else can you buy magic arrows

[@matthewrowlett1564]

Honestly? It never really bothered me. Sure, Lucien had that cool, goth, badass thing going for him, but depending on dialogue choice, he was kind of an asshole... As for the Night mother Treating Skyrims Cicero differently, well... there is a theory that Sithis is Sheogorath, or a part of Sheogorath... And Sheogorath is the god of Madness... What would one call Poor Cicero if not Mad? Lucien Was Rewarded in death, able to serve his "Family" for eternity... and who knows What else. But this implies something important. The various Churches Deny Sithis, Yet Displays of this kind of power are Only done by the Daedra or the Aedra... so then, what IS Sithis. What IS the Void. Either Another diety in disguise(such as Sheogorath or possibly even Akatosh), or An unknown God... and this REALLY needs to be A plotline in one of the games...

[@underclas]

I wonder if you can kill the night mother or just let Matt attack the night mother?

[@es68951]

I used to be a Dark Brotherhood fan too... then I heard Emil open his mouth

[@DarkLOREDash]

Zharic??

[@TotalFreakZoid]

In my opinion the Dark Brotherhood questline kind of peetered out the moment we finished Whodunit. Which is the best questline of the Dark Brotherhood. All the questlines after it. Even trying to learn who the traitor is just doesn't feel as good as playing the Questline up to the Whodunit part.

[@rinna3719]

Also, as it turns out, it's not like weeding out the "incompetence" did the brotherhood any good. They ended up totally destroyed in the chaos that swept the empire in between oblivion and skyrim.

[@dikiytunets4780]

And this is why I never finish the DB quest line in Oblivion. The contracts are fine and creative, sure, but the ending of it all is just not worth it.

[@issholland]

The reward of the night mother /is/ death

[@Kammithekiller]

my poor mans ;_;

[@ShaneBlackheart]

I remember the first time I played that quest, and I was so upset at the way it ended. I was left with a feeling of pointlessness, I guess? Like all the time I just spent on that was a waste, it ended in nothing, technically. The power meant nothing, as was made clear when the Nightmother let everyone be slaughtered, even the most loyal person. It became a series of grinding side quests that got repetitive. The story was amazing, sure, which is what drew me in, but I created my own conclusion and downloaded a mod to have Lucien as a companion. The story then became: I warned him in time and we both ditched the organization and god that betrayed us. Much more fulfilling.

[@wulerhaufung9468]

The questline is well written with quite a few lovely twists that when you think retrospectively are foreshadowed subtly. As for the apathy and disassociating concept of Sithis, well, these things happen in Oblivion and Skyrim (which some say has 'bad storytelling' overall) when developers attempt to marry ease of gameplay to Kirkbridian lores. While I do prefer better storytelling over gameplay, these are probably what we'll get from official products till the end of this kalpa🙁

[@DarkLOREDash]

Great insight. I really appreciate the take & youre right. Something juuuuust doesn't fit. Like an open wound in your mouth you can't stop tonguing 🤣 perhaps 6 could...fix...help

[@wulerhaufung9468]

@@DarkLOREDash Luckily we have an amazing 'doujin'/modding community to fill and fix our headcanons. Yet the decaying prospect for the authority keeps the wound open.

[@Hologrunt002]

I always had a shitty relationship with thesancuary members so i ended up enjoying it since the only one who reslected me at the time was lucien then not knowing made me happy that he died then less so when i learned the truth

[@SirRavix]

It made me so upset in my first playthrough when Lucien died. 😭

[@SirRavix]

It made me so upset in my first playthrough when Lucien died.

[@biskaye]

i always wished you could at least recruit lucien after killing the listener or something. was hoping he would have a Modryn Oreyn moment and redeem himself.

[@ReinaSaurus]

every member of the dark brotherhood in the cheydinhal sanctuary enjoyed their cruelty while killing. sithis seems to be a concept of nihilism, of denial. his followers do not care about justice, the truth or mercy. they only live for preying on their victims to revel in their annihilation. there is no should or shouldnt here, for as you already chose a path of artistic obliteration and twisting life for the purpose of greater suffering. murder in these stories is as ritualized as it is pleasuring. the actor does as he pleases, forcing control of the night mothers cult over targeted life.

[@dylanj8676]

Bethesda definitely did Lucien dirty. All they had to do was have the other Blackn Hand members kill him. Instead he was strung up and tortured, presumably living through having his tongue and jaw cut off so he couldn't speak to defend himself, large gashes cut into his arms and legs so he can't struggle, organ removal, and literal emasculation. They were probably trying to contrast how comical the Dark Brotherhood questline was otherwise, with faking deaths, falling mantle pieces, murder house parties, and assassinating warlord's on their deathbed that had no real reason for anybody to want them assassinated, but they overdid it with how dark it was, and they couldn't even be bothered to give you the option to remove the corpse, or have it automatically removed and have Lucien given a headstone, so you're forced to stare at the mutilated corpse (I always disable it with the console on PC). To add insult to injury the Black Hand members that killed him were such pushovers and so clueless makes almost zero sense they were able to kill Lucien in the first place.

[@PotooBurd]

When I get stuck in those plot twist choices I generally stop the offending quest. Parthanax is still alive in my Skyrim saves. 😂

[@DarkLOREDash]

Haha you're not a fan of heavy choice? Tough in an RPG

[@brosephbroman7564]

I take him out. He pretty much tells you to. He says he struggles with his urges and eventually he will turn back to his ways. Cool dragon, but sadly he has to be one with the Dragonborn.

[@PotooBurd]

@@DarkLOREDash I like to make certain play throughs “good / evil” but in most of my Skyrim saves I keep that old dragon regardless. (Heck most of my saves completely ignore the main quests and just focus on the side quests / factions) 😂 in my Rp saves I also don’t start the main quest to avoid dragons for the rest of my game, it’s more immersive for me.

[@PotooBurd]

@@brosephbroman7564 to each their own. In my opinion- The Blades and their leader Delphine especially don’t contribute much to Skyrim, they couldn’t keep the emperor safe when it truly mattered. In contrast Paarthurnax has changed sides in the middle of a bloody war, and is the reason the world eater was sent into dormancy. He then continued to help the Nords until the end. His story ends with the question of “Can a sinner be redeemed? How much must they do to prove their change of heart?” I found a character foil in the realm of Christianity- “Saint Paul of Tarsus is considered one of the most famous sinners who became saints. Before his conversion, Paul believed he was doing God's will by killing Christians and didn't realize he was committing a sin. However, God blinded him to punish him for his actions, and Paul eventually converted to Christianity. After his conversion, Paul became a devoted disciple of Jesus and changed his mission from killing Christians to spreading Christianity. He also became one of the New Testament's most prolific authors, allowing God to speak through him. “ - google Snape and Boromier also come to mind. If I could I would choose Delphine in Boethiah’s quest, but regrettably she is an essential npc. Sorry long post I’m waiting for laundry and doom scrolling. 😂

[@PotooBurd]

@@brosephbroman7564 To each their own. In my opinion-The Blades and their leader Delphine especially don't contribute much to Skyrim, they couldn't keep the emperor safe when it truly mattered. In contrast Paarthurnax has changed sides in the middle of a bloody war, and is the reason the world eater was sent into dormancy. He then continued to help the Nords until the end. His story ends with the question of "Can a sinner be redeemed? How much must they do to prove their change of heart?"

[@jacknapier817]

I think it's time to start another questline, these one offs are missing the mark a bit

[@springheeljak145]

Even though I rarely do it, I enjoy destroying the Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim. I can't stand Astrid and most of the family, unlike the Cheydinhal Sanctuary where everybody is great (except that Khajiit)

[@Heracross-iq2cx]

Hello. I am the biggest fan of Oblivion on the planet.

[@shikiixTheYoungWidow]

Is there a way to kill Matthew??

[@humpteedumptee8629]

I thought killing valen right before his release was kinda crappy.

[@DarkLOREDash]

I love old Drethy, so much.

[@Nathan_Coley]

RIP Lachance 😂🤣

[@beck-nightengale]

I was never a huge fan of Lucien, personally. The moment he orders me to wipe out my new assassin family, I really just want to end the questline there, or kill him myself. His death felt deserved after that. Never really understood people's obsession with him... but I also don't get the obsession with Cicero, either.

[@Likhos1]

Bethesda did the whole brotherhood dirty in all three games I played In Morrowind they are fodder and you destroy their sanctuary (tbh you can join the Morag Tong instead, so we don't miss on assassins). In Oblivion and Skyrim, the sanctuary gets purged (kinda) and you replace interesting and varied NPCs for generic goons, at least Skyrim was nice enough to make it so more members survived. I quickly moved on from the faction after it was done in both cases because there was really not much in term of interest, especially in Oblivion.

[@dragondude9637]

There's a mod called "Whispered warning" which allows you to spare the members of the sanctuary.

[@acyour]

Well it is Bethesda. They are known to change things from game to game. I mean no one ever talks about that Oblivion takes place before Skyrim and yet the Empire goes from Full Plate Armor in Oblivion to Ancient Roman Style in Skyrim. That is a serious down grade in Army Tech.

[@brosephbroman7564]

The Empire is weak in Skyrim. Less money. Aldmeri Dominion is also probably intentionally restricting their forces attire and arms so they are less likely to rebel or will be less of a threat if they do.

[@empurress77]

At least a choice to spare the crew (or some of the crew) would be great.

[@CountessKek]

As soon as you get the best damn horse in the game, you can go right back into Lucien's sanctuary. Can't you kill him then?

[@DarkLOREDash]

Priorities 🤣

[@KimberlyKjellberg]

Nope, he is essential at that time. He is only non-essential before you take out Rufio and when following a lead. Well it is a scripted death so unsure if you could take out him.

[@brantnuttall]

It wasn't perfect. I wanted to wipe out all remaining traces of it but you can't kill Arquen.

[@demongoddessx3]

I hated this questline , only the sanctuary members were decent (apart from that one female that makes jokes about members getting murdered.) After that Lucian was the only nice thing left about it.

[@RyanM92]

Honestly don't know why people liked Cicero, I killed him when the option finally came up at the end of the story, and left him as a pile of ash. I never much cared for the DB given they're just an organised group of murders, but I did do the stories as it was more content for me to experience. Went through it in oblivion and skyrim on my 360, but now that i've started again on the ps4 for skyrim, i'm just going to cut them all down, i know what happens, so its no loss.

[@brosephbroman7564]

Yeah. I have beef with them since Morrowind lol. Interupt my sleep? I interupt your organization

[@oni4938]

EARRLYY

[@TK--cv1uz]

Never.

[@PerilousParadigm]

Before i start im just saying i REFUSE this propaganda, I wouldnt harm a hair on his head 🥺🥺

[@SuperLumianaire]

Had I the choice in Oblivion I will have definitely destroyed not just Lucien but the entire dark brotherhood. As when I play an avatar of myself, I do exactly as any righteous person would.

[@brosephbroman7564]

Same.

[@hunterivey]

The Skyrim's version of the Dark Brotherhood Quest is better, because it has more choices and better way of understanding it, where has the one in Oblivion, you don't have many choices, also the quest only happens if you murder someone, also after a while it get a little confusing, but in Skyrim you have to take a contract from someone that requests it.

[@elvangulley3210]

Such a terrible writer he should have been fired years ago the damage he did to tes and fallout is irreversible

[@agentboogeyman7387]

It's funny because way back when I was playing my first character, I was playing a non-lethal Thief. At some point his actions resulted in the death of a bystander and I got the "Your killing has been seen by forces unknown" the moment it happened. Somehow, I had been flagged as the murderer, even though I did not directly kill him. Cue the next time I went to sleep and Lucien was there waiting for me. The *entire* Brotherhood questline for this character was done under duress, for fear of *not* doing it and being murdered in turn. Lucien was this intimidating boogeyman serving a dark deity that my character was unwillingly bound to obey. Not even Lucien's death freed my character from his bondage, as the Night Mother herself appeared and appointed him her speaker. This was the dark, twisted fate of my Thief. Forever cowering beneath the dark gaze of Sithis and the Night Mother, handing out orders to spread more misery and chaos for the rest of his days... And he knew his afterlife was going to be so much worse... because Sithis was waiting to collect... I loved *every minute* of it.

[@Dorgpoop]

I think the night mother and sithis being cruel and uncaring isn't really out of character, it's just that the dark brotherhood follows a nihilistic philosophy. Devoted members like Lucien and Cicero don't enjoy killing just for the friends they make or the fun of it, they have a real fascination and reverence for death itself and are just as gleefull to be killed as they are to kill. The less reverent members like Astrid who ignore that philosophy always meet a sticky end, after all it's a bit hypocritical to preach about the god of death and murder and to avoid meeting that same fate yourself.