Why You Should Lose Levels - the UNDEAD in AD&D

[@EricVulgaris]

Both level drain and lack of morale rules really made undead less scary. A monster that doesn't break unless you have a cleric? That's awesome.

[@theoldwarlock]

We agree that it pushes players to think about the game in a different way. Having someone be a cleric suddenly seems like a way better idea. Thanks!

[@penname8380]

I agree. Because IRL the same player, even given his character history would still be wearing his or her brown pants. I fear neither man or beast, but if a apparition that I could extrapolate was an actual (non prank) entity...Bro...I'm not even going to stick around to roll my lucky d20 save, I'm voluntarlty going to exit stage left.

[@nicklarocco4178]

Don't sword fight Dracula. This is the best advice old d&d can impart on a group. Use a clerics ability to turn undead and magic yo overcome the undead, they're incredibly dangerous in melee and that's obvious. People who complain about level drain simply refuse to alter their tactics when fighting monsters that deal exotic types of damage.

[@RoninCatholic]

"Slimes are unfair unless I can casually club them to death!"

[@grumpygrognard7292]

Being an old-schooler, I appreciate the high level of danger from these undead. For me, however, it's less about the danger and more about the practical explanation of how someone could lose an experience level or rank from losing "life energy". It's far too abstracted. Example: Why would a 3rd level druid struck by a wight suddenly lose the ability to identify plants? What actually makes more sense to me is for the drain to be that of an ability score. I think it fits better with the classic mythology of the undead. Take the vampire draining of blood, for example. Losing blood may make someone weak (loss of strength), or dizzy (loss of Dexterity). A terrifying wraith or spectre may cause extreme fear and stress and an inability to think coherently (loss of intelligence or wisdom). Just an alternate way of handling the energy drain effect and still keep it dangerous.

[@theoldwarlock]

Most people who don't like the full level drain seem to have the same type of approaches you mention. It's been interesting to see what alternatives people have used to see, basically, the same type of result. Thanks for the comments!

[@LionKimbro]

When I was a kid, I biked everywhere, and I learned how to, and got used to, riding with both of my hands off the handlebars. But one day, I had a nasty crash while doing that. I totally lost the confidence to do it, effectively losing that ability. Over some years, I slowly got back the confidence to do it again, though not as well as before. BAM! Real life level drain!

[@theoldwarlock]

Whoa! Excellent example! Thanks for sharing this!

[@chrisa84]

I agree. Monsters that are scary to the players keep them from thinking they can take on anything. There's a bad mentality baked into the newer RPGs with this whole notion of ensuring balanced encounters through the CR system. So much ink is wasted on balancing encounters, and it's all to protect the players from thinking they're not the masters of the universe. For a simple example: according to the 5e rules, a first level party should only fight two orcs. But that disregards that orcs don't organize themselves in groups of two: they fight in warbands, and the cowardly brutes aren't going to want to stick around to fight when they're clearly outnumbered. Yet they're considered a "hard encounter", even though they'll die easily and threaten no meaningful or lasting damage. The whole game world has to be warped around the player character's present capabilities, and level draining undead is an extreme offense to that mentality because it presents a threat that is completely unfair and unbalanced: it's supposed to be.

[@davidgraham6603]

I also like the level drain. The potential serious character impact adds a real sense of dread. They are a great big, bady that leads itself to be the center a series of sessions.

[@theoldwarlock]

Agreed David! Those level drainers are often the center of our sessions for months.

[@deanlol]

I personally don't like level drain due to the accounting involved. When playing I don't want to have to remember the hit points I rolled at every level and when I DM players often don't keep track of them. It's just a hassle. The math actually takes the fear out of it and turns it into an inconvenience.

[@ForeverYoungKickboxer]

Agreed about the fear and loss. We used to treat level drain like a minor or major stroke depending on the creature, plus save vs death magic or lose a point of Con. And have the length of time to recover the level was impacted by Con (but always weeks or months) That was before the 1st stroke among us at the table. Man it's hell to get old but it beats the alternative! So even though for survivors it's not permanent, at low levels it's easily still fatal, and scary! Having to finish the dungeon at 5th level while everyone else is 8-9th isn't easy. And having to put down your dead comrade who rose the next day as a wight isn't happy fun times for the characters (but can be great fun for the players who go with it).

[@theoldwarlock]

We're hearing about all kinds of ways people approach the mechanic. Yours makes great sense. And we're so sorry to hear about your player having a real stroke and I hope they're okay and still able to play. Give them our regards if possible.

[@dq4331]

I've been playing AD&D since 1979 and mostly agree with your point about undead needing something that makes them scary. I've never felt, however, that level drain really fits the "sensibility" and aesthetic of vampires. Wraiths and Specters, absolutely, but level drain is a bad fit for vamps. I prefer to give vampire a powerful grappling /overbearing attack and a 1d4 con drain for their "bite," which turns the victim into a vampire if they reach 0 or less con and only recovers at the rate of 1 point every 1d4 days. A vampire should be using its gaze and ability to stalk and snatch individuals rather than trying to go up against entire parties, anyways.

[@barbarianlibertarian9200]

Just found your channel. My best friend's dad got us into AD&D in the early 90's when we were in Jr. High. I've played every edition. Gotta say I miss so many things from the old school books. You guys have made me realize how much I miss it and would love to play it again.

[@theoldwarlock]

Thanks! We're glad you enjoy the content. Hope you get to play some old school D&D soon.

[@Dave_L]

Losing a single level is not that bad. In 2e, you go back to the halfway point of the previous level. 2e recommends an advancement rate of one level every 9 sessions on average, but because level thresholds are doubled each level up to around ninth level, you will be getting twice the XP relative to your level threshold relative to the rest of the party (assuming the majority of them didn't get level-drained). Then when you consider you're already halfway to your previous level, then you only need half the XP to return to your previous level. As a result, you should only need about two or three sessions on average to return to the party's average class level. Being set back two to three sessions is really not the end of the world... it's just enough of a penalty to encourage players to deal with high level undead asymmetrical: not with a headlong charge but with careful planning and preparation. Interestingly, while losing multiple levels is worse, the XP level threshold math softens the blow a bit. Regaining two levels, for example, should take about 3 to 4 sessions. The only really bad loss is when you lose levels after reaching name level and the XP progression flattens out, or if you lose so many levels that the party as a whole is adversely effected by your weakness and cannot take on the level of monsters they were beating previously (thus they cannot earn XP at the same rate as before).

[@theoldwarlock]

Thanks for the comment Dave. I think you nailed the fallout that often happens with an undead encounter that brings PC's play even more into focus after such an event.

[@TheArcturusProject]

Thank you! This inspired me out of writers block for the direction my next starter campaign will take. Grindhouse, level 0, four characters to each player. I couldn’t figure out what would happen after they were deceived and thrown in a hole and left to their own devices, with imminent danger and sorcery involved. Zombies! The bite-spreading kind. They reduce level by 1, and when they get to -1 they turn into a zombie. They are being used to add to the undead ranks growing in this sealed off dungeon.

[@roumonada]

+1 One of the reasons why I still play AD&D 2nd Edition. Not only do undead monsters mess characters up, but their xp bonuses are super low AND undead tend to have crappy treasure as well. Undead are all-around obstacles which totally are not worth even fighting because the rewards are so low, so players tend to not only fear them, but LOATHE even encountering them. Fortunately, some undead are easily dispatched with turn undead or even magical light spells. ... oh the vampire! I forgot to mention them. So the thing about the vampire is that they have a character class. So every vampire you put into your game is an NPC designed by you. The nastiest thing about vampires, I find, is the WARRIOR VAMPIRES with mulitple attacks. Priest vampires might attack once per round with a mace or cast a spell, but the nasty warrior vampire, with his rapier and main gauche, or his longsword and medium shield, might attack 2, 3, 4, 5 times per round AND may possess weapon skills far superior to even the strongest PC fighter in the group. So say goodbye to Ragnar the warrior's 10th level ThAC0 and welcome Ragnar the level 2 fighter to the group because he dared to go toe-to-toe with Vlad the Impaler for one or two rounds.

[@theoldwarlock]

First, I'm a huge fan of the idea of Ragnar going toe-to-toe with Vlad the Impaler. Second, we completely agree. Encountering powerful undead (like the vampire) is something that characters should always fear, and should have little upside. Even when a character is hired to hunt down and kill an undead creature, they should have to think long and hard about that decision before they make it. As you say, this would be especially true about going up against a Warrior Vampire. Thanks for the comment!

[@mardigan4922]

I agree about level drain. It’s not like your character is necessarily “forgetting” what they’ve experienced (or maybe it is!), but they are not able to do all the same things anymore. As someone who sustained a pretty hefty back injury, it is what I see as level drain. I had to spend months rehabilitating and strengthening my body to be able to be “normal/my level” again. And there are still what appear to be permanent changes to my lifestyle because of that injury. I still get nerve pain where I didn’t before. That’s just what can happen in normal every day life, so fighting a soul-sucking undead creature should be more intense, honestly. Is level-drain the ONLY way? No. But is it mechanically sound? I think so, even if it *feels* bad and game-breaking sometimes.

[@Meeeeeeeestery]

I am a simple person: I spot The Old Warlock, I put a like (never disappointed by content).

[@theoldwarlock]

Marco, we always look forward to hearing from you. Glad you enjoy our videos so much!

[@Meeeeeeeestery]

@@theoldwarlock Guys, I feel like you are old friends: the spirit, the irony, the love for a certain way to experience things. Why should we lose levels as confronting undead? You nailed it (again), because it's damn scary! AND, that invades reality! The undead burn players (players, not characters!) game time! The time YOU spent playing, levelling up...the undead attacks, and it's burnt! Woah, to me this is quintessential, truest, fear AND, mostly and once more, with respect to what we already shared on the Deck of Many Things for instance, REALITY PERVADING. This latter is what distinguishes the most the "original game" (original boxes, Cook, Moldvay, Mentzer, Gygax, D. Cook) from the last WotC iterations.

[@theoldwarlock]

@@Meeeeeeeestery Well said as always! We'll be doing similar comparisons in future videos so check back. We hope all is well in Italy.

[@grailcountry]

I agree with the idea that undead should be terrifying, but level drain never made sense. I would suggest draining constitution or strength would be equally terrifying and more logical.

[@AuthorTraceRichards]

We’re gearing up to finish House of Strahd and go into the castle. To say that all of us are really cautious of facing Strahd is an understatement, and his energy draining ability is a part of that. Enjoy your vids.

[@theoldwarlock]

Thanks much! Let us know how the castle turns out.

[@AuthorTraceRichards]

@@theoldwarlockSurvived House of Strahd. We were fortunate that we didn’t suffer any level drains, especially with a surprise encounter with a Spectre. Strahd teleported away when faced with the light of a sunsword near the end. We escaped, but I’m sure we havn’t seen the last of Barovia’s lord lol. Was a great game and wanted to share the update

[@theoldwarlock]

@@AuthorTraceRichards Sounds like a great time. Thanks for sharing. Hearing about the games of others always inspires me to set up our next session. KYSAF!

[@olivervogel295]

I wish you guys would be in charge at wizards of the coast. I really appreciate your deep understanding of the game.

[@theoldwarlock]

Oliver! This is one of the best compliments we've had! Thanks!

[@jimfreda4468]

i agree,I started playing over 40 years ago and WOTC has become a D&D buzzkill.

[@nordicmaelstrom4714]

That real fear of losing levels is one reason why I love the older editions of the game and have made Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2E the edition I play. I hate feeling like I am playing a damn superhero that can always win no matter what which is so prevalent in all wizards of the coast versions of the game. I love the gritty and hard hitting older editions where as you guys have said choice dictates what happens. Sure I may be a very powerful warrior but the risk of taking on a vampire or something just as equally dangerous like a dragon may not be worth it overall. Playing wotc dnd I feel like no matter what chances are great your group is going to fight this or fight that and not care about taking damage and such whereas in the older editions you really need to think is this worth it or is discretion the better part of valor.

[@mattia9743]

So right, you do not need to pretend you are scared. In AD&D when you face an undead, you are really scared. Really scared!

[@theoldwarlock]

Thanks, Mattia! For us, it definitely makes the game more intense.

[@vechcron]

Perfect I couldn't have said it better myself but I use the Van Rictens Guides in my campaigns the Undead are the apex villains those guides are the perfect tool's for any and all campaigning and I run first and second edition as a rule love your work

[@Omenowl]

I found level drain as a horrible mechanic especially when permanent. The fact you basically don’t advance for that module even with restore. There were a lot more fun monsters to fight than a bad roll that drained hundreds thousands of experience.

[@mykediemart]

I agree with you. Level loss is a bad mechanic for it to be permanent. It also unbalanced as it takes a few thousand xp from a one character and a hundred thousand from another. A constitution drain seems more balanced.

[@Omenowl]

@@mykediemart temporary stat drain is more appropriate. Strength, con, or dexterity.

[@doomhippie6673]

@@Omenowl I completely agree. I have never understood the idea behind level drain. I lose life experience? All the sudden I am a virgin again (not the body but I don't remember how to have sex? I forget how to swing a sword? That never really made sense. So I agree to rather have them drain stats - perhaps also mental stats, if they really attack your "soul". Still I appreciate the thought process here. Thanks for bringing up the topic.

[@omanafire]

@@doomhippie6673 It's like if you thought you were a hotshot at a fighting game and then you get wrecked by someone well more advanced than you. You could go for a rematch and suddenly you do make a ton of amateurish mistakes, you fail to preform combos or parry attacks which you had no problem with before. You didn't forget, you've been put in your place. You see this in sports, especially boxing all the time. Someone who was great just starts degrading after a big loss. Ego damage that they may or may not ever recover from.

[@gryphonwilson7415]

@@mykediemart You can regain a level, you can't (unless using a wish) restore an ability to a prior state though. And that is the point. To penalize the player just enough that they care, but soft enough that it doesn't ruin a character. With casters of any kind I do agree that a level loss is a huge hit, but they wouldn't be the ones fighting in the front most of the time anyway? The ThAC0 system is essentially designed for this level drain mechanic as well. This is because ThAC0 gets better on a two level basis for a fighter class. This means being at level 2, level 4, level 6, etc... means you stand less of a chance of losing absolute combat effectiveness. You might lose a hit die, but you don't lose your ThAC0. And ThAC0, especially at lower levels, is a better measure of how a fight will play out that hit dice.

[@LddStyx]

Level-draining undead is in fact all about the character losing their skills and abilities - because it's inspired by Dracula. Dracula doesn't only drink Jonathan Harker's blood, but also steals his life. Harker loses his intellect and memories the longer he stays at the counts manor. Just like the Cleric with its Turn undead was basically Van Helsing.

[@CaptCook999]

Way back when we first started playing, we encountered a Wight. I believe that it was in the Keep on the Borderlands module in the Cave of the Unknown. None of us knew what a Wight was or what it's abilities were. My character got drained 1 level before we killed it. So when we went back to the Keep we had to hire a Cleric to restore his level. It cost us most of the gold and treasure we had and we also had to do a quest for the Cleric. After that we were a little more careful about going near any undead.

[@Thagomizer]

I like your interpretation of level drain as reflecting the intense spiritual damage the undead can inflict on people. However, I've always hated level drain mechanically. I've often thought that the loss of Constitution might be a better alternative to showing the loss of "life energy", and less frustrating. Also, perhaps the level draining should be temporary, and restored within a day or two if the undead in question is slain. There are other game mechanics to convey the devastation of the negative energy plane that are less frustrating.

[@theoldwarlock]

Were you a friend of the late Thag Simmons? Since we posted the video, it seems people either love or hate the mechanic and we've had emails about people altering the mechanic. I like the idea of levels being restored if the undead is destroyed. I once played with a DM who made level drains more vampiric. Ten percent loss of the levels lost every day unless the undead were destroyed. After ten days, the loss was permanent if the creature wasn't killed. Made for some great adventures after an encounter with the undead. Thanks for the comment!

[@marcusgrimmm]

I agree, I never equated experience points with life energy as you put it. To me level drain seems more like the effects of Alzheimer's then being hit by undead. "I used to know how to cast that high level spell...but..I...can't remember now".

[@Galanthos]

3rd Edition really changed the structure of the game, and I think that change caused a shift in opinions on level drain. In third edition, as compared to earlier editions, each level was more significant, XP charts were uniform across classes, and the XP required per level was calculated much differently, so there were not as drastic of differences in required XP between levels. Further, the game shifted away from XP granted for treasure recovery, and relied entirely on XP granted from combat (and GM fiat.) So, in an old-school game, you can avoid the Wight without losing out on a significant chunk of XP. If you lose levels it sucks, but isn't crippling, and you are likely to catch back up to the rest of the party before they hit the next level. In 3rd edition killing the wight is the only viable option. If you are level drained you are at a significant disadvantage compared to the rest of the party, and you are going to remain behind pretty much the rest of your adventuring career because the way XP scales mean by the time you regain a level, your party has already leveled up again. This structure has been carried forward, so, without making other changes to 5e, level drain would be overly cruel in that system.

[@yourbusinessvalue]

I love these videos. I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, but you raise points that are well worth discussion. I am becoming increasingly disenchanted with 5e because I think it is too easy. If 5e encourages roleplaying it's because it's hard to die with competent play and reasonably good teamwork. I find myself longing for the fear and wonder of 1e, while acknowledging some of its shortcomings, which might be addressed by adopting house rules, even those from 5e... I believe Gary Gygax would approve of your interpretation of the game.

[@theoldwarlock]

We appreciate it, thanks Michael!

[@primusinterpares5767]

Check out five torches deep. It's 5e compatible with an old school style.

[@ontaka5997]

I would go on to fight creatures that could drain levels, but I wouldn't want to fight a Demilich where you could be permanently slain by having your soul devoured without the chance of resurrection. If you are an evil party, you could force slaves or prisoners to attack the demilich first to fill up all the gems with their "souls" making it safer to attack. On the other hand, instead of having your character permanently destroyed, the DM could get creative enough that instead of having your soul "digested" beyond salvation, it has gone off to a different plane and this kind of setting could be used in future adventures.

[@theoldwarlock]

Excellent idea!

[@donavanb1534]

Had a moment recently where a party I was a part of found a chest. It was quite obviously trapped with a ring of Arcane runes around it and dead bodies in a body of water next to said chest. Being the Thief, I naturally take an interest in such a challenge, since that's the whole schtick of a thief. So to elicit a reaction from the chest, I stand 30 ft back from the circumference of the arcane runes and toss a rock inside. Immediately, the Dungeon master rolls a die, then another, then another. The whole party is semi-disappointed, semi-pissed that we are all about to die from what we presumed was a fire ball. However, the DM says "roll for initiative". I was quite confused, thinking maybe some kind of mimic had been released due a seal I broke, however, this was not the case. Apparently, there was a wizard trap placed on the runes that would remove a protection from evil circle near a hole from the chest. We roll awful for initiative so we brace for the monster to come, and the relevance of the story appears. A tiny Undead comes forth, charging me. Assuming it was a Ghoul from the description, I was confident the worst that would happen was a paralyzation which the rest of the party could clear up quick(we have 3 clerics for some reason). This was not the case, instead, it attacked and I lost a level. I Panicked and ran away inciting an attack, which the undead creature, of course, took. I took another blow and lost another level. Feeling Drained, I got out of the dungeon as quick as possible and the party cleared it soon after with 3 turns per round. I ended up back to 2/1 for levels because I was a dual class fighter thief, early dual classing at 2nd level to thief. It took me awhile to regain those levels but it instilled a fear into that character for the rest of his life. Moral of the story: Don't throw rocks at suspicious chests.

[@theoldwarlock]

Great comment and loved reading the tale! And "Don't throw rocks at suspicious chests" is going to be part of our mantra from now on. Thanks!

[@sirkharuse1153]

I'd love to play AD&D with you guys! I love these insights and perspectives on this aspect of d&d.

[@theoldwarlock]

Thanks again, Sir K.

[@retrodmray]

Yes indeed...without that level drain being nearly permanent, short of powerful and expensive magical aid, then what's the point of them being there really. I've been drained and had to earn that level back with XP. 😬 "Superhero-ness"...Lol... love it, and absolutely a part of the new game systems a lot it seems. Lethal and fear is absolutely vital to a great game....I agree. 👍Great one guys!

[@theoldwarlock]

Thanks so much! Had a feeling you would agree with us. You're right, lethal terror does make for a great game.

[@txmetalhead82xk]

My two cents, those tense combat experiences are the most memorable and rewarding. That is what makes it fun!

[@PlanetZoidstar]

I recall hearing the concept of Energy Drain and LOSING levels, and the idea terrified me since you could potentially lose multiple levels in a single encounter. Imagine coming up against multiple Wights and taking a hit from each one? That's devastating even if you win, especially at lower levels. That said I do like the idea that your confidence is basically shot being hit by these unliving monstrosities that should not exist. You would become less capable as your sense of self esteem is broken down, realising fiends like Wights exist, and one just mauled you. What else might be out there you didn't think was real? Could you ever sleep again knowing that? One thing that might make Energy Drain less of a turn-off could having it be temporary. Like perhaps a Long Rest is enough to restore 1 lost level? So over time you could build back your character's confidence in themselves and their belief they can win against these monsters. It's still going to hinder you in the long run if you've lost several levels and you need that many long rests to get back to where you were. It could be many sessions before you're back to where you started. Progress lost and having to be regained. A caveat could be that your XP resets to 0 of the level you just gained, so if you were on the cusp of levelling up, you can't then level up again after the next Long Rest regains you 1 level. *"Were you Level "X" and 10XP away from your next level? Well you just took a Long Rest. now you're Level "X+1" and your XP for that level is 0."*

[@theoldwarlock]

A lot of people have told us that is how they make level drain more palatable for players. One great idea was making a required mini-adventure necessary to get your mojo back which sound great.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

@@theoldwarlock Yeah, I think the mini-adventure idea would be a good way to turn regaining lost levels into their own story arc.

[@jeremycaufield8605]

You haven’t lived, till your entire party gets slammed by a vampiric mimic pretending to be the floor your all standing on.

[@Auticusx]

Fun fact / random D&D player story - My level 13 fighter / level 11 wizard whom had been playing regularly for over two years of weekly games was killed. By a skeleton. A basic skeleton. Critical hit to the head. High roll - insta kill. You all point out the exact reasons I miss AD&D and why I dislike 5th edition so much. There is no tension, no fear, you know you will always win in 5e and there are no repercussions or loss.

[@luthersmithers6052]

I've never been a fan of level drain, but I completely agree to the reasoning behind it. The way I get around that is to apply an XP loss for each hit. An example would be a vampire drains 1d4x100 experience points, a wight drains 1d4x50, etc.

[@theoldwarlock]

I think this is a good alternative if you're looking for a slightly less intense experience! It still adds some extra danger. Keep your sword arm free!

[@luthersmithers6052]

@@theoldwarlock Got to in order to climb those walls. I'm a Thief.

[@B42UC4]

Great video. Thanks guys! I like your ideas, and the good thing about 5e is that it can be easily implemented. There already are some effects that won't allow characters to heal, and you could not allow for a long rest to cancel that effect. There is such a nasty monster in 5e already, the Mummy (Monster Manual page 228), and it is only CR3. If high level clerics are not common in your game world, that is a pretty scary thing to fight, no matter what level you are. I would only add that it is a good idea to let the players know what they are getting into, so they don't feel cheated. Give the characters the ability to gather clues before going against that challenge, or let them know that mortality is high and they might lose their characters at any time. Cheers!

[@muffinboymcgee7411]

The one level drain thing I house rule is the way vampires drain; they have to grapple or dominate characters and bite them to level drain instead of just touching them. Wraiths, specters and other spectral undead, sure contact with them's gonna mess you up, but in no folklore or mythology I know of do vampires drain people and turn them into undead slaves by punching them in the jaw. Besides, vampires have a charming gaze, superhuman strength, genius level intelligence, immunity to normal weapons, shapeshifting powers, mental control over creatures of the night, and most of them are wizards on top of all of that. If the DM is doing them proper justice, they're scary enough without level drain (which they can still do; they just have to put the effort in and actually pin their victim down first).

[@theoldwarlock]

We've had a couple of people say they use a similar approach. It makes logical sense and really fits with how most people imagine a vampire attack (RPG or no).

[@oleolsen2304]

Hey guys, Great episode and I 100% agree with you. Full disclosure, I am a passionate AD&D e1 fan so maybe I just know no different. I am however interested in your interpretation of the Protection From Evil spell on the level draining effects of Wights and Wraiths etc... The description in the Players Handbook and DMs Guide describe "hedging" against the touch of evil enchanted, conjured and summoned creatures. Particularly creatures from other planes of existence (level draining undead exist in both the positive and negative material planes). "The protection encircles the recipient at a one foot distance, thus preventing bodily contact by creatures of an enchanted or conjured nature such as aerial servants, demons, devils, djinn efreet, elementals, imps, invisible stalkers, night hags, quasits, salamanders, water weirds, wind walkers, and xorn. Summoned animals or monsters are similarly hedged from the protected creature." - Players Handbook pg. 44 "Note that this excludes (keeps out) monsters using natural (body) weapon attacks which require touching the protected character." - Dungeon Masters Guide pg. 41 Some would suggest this language speaks specifically to level draining touch of undead and it certainly doesn't exclude them anywhere. Interested in your thoughts on this one. Cheer, Ole

[@theoldwarlock]

Hey Ole. I've always played this to mean that Protection from Evil prevents undead from being able to drain levels of creatures on the receiving end of the spell. It came from a desire to give the players some method of protecting themselves against level drain, usually on short notice or as part of a plan. Part of it also stems from an interest on my part of building suspense. The spell only lasts for, I think, three rounds per level which isn't terribly long - but maybe just long enough to allow any undead a chance to organize better, for the players to try and figure out a fast exit strategy, etc. My players hold the spell in reserve 90% of the time to be used when Major Crisis arrives on the scene. I do allow normal melee attacks into and out of the spell with the pluses and minuses mentioned in the PHB.

[@sw00smon28]

Good insights, fellas. My solution is very simple; make a copy of the character sheet. Players keep it in their folders, ready for their first wight fight! Modern day printer/scanner technology makes it easy.

[@gotpaladin9520]

So with 5e you aren't able to take away levels from party members. This is an inherent flaw in the power curve and dynamics of the math. They make levels milestones of direct power rather than what earlier editions were. Earlier dnd didn't have this damage curve to encounter balance so you could take a level and not see a significant difference.

[@theoldwarlock]

You make an interesting point.

[@worstcat8489]

While not called 'milestones' AD&D has similar points in a character's progression that are just as important (albeit less formally advertised). A fighter qualifying for weapon mastery (the coveted 2 melee attacks a round...3 with dual weild) High Mastery (crit on 16-20), and Grand Mastery (increase the dice levels of weapons by one - 3D6 becomes 3D8) are all 'level' gated progressions that are transformative to the given character. Thieves skills and backstab multipliers are the same - Ranger and Paladin special powers...same same. Casters break into different maximum spell levels similarly - magic item research/ spell research etc.... all hard ties to character level and nothing else. To assert that losing a level and suddenly not qualifying for these class abilities that radically separate a PC from monsters and NPC's is a bad call - losing levels is losing levels and it is always extremely nail-biting - if not moreso in AD&D. I understand that there is an encounter 'formula' in 5e that governs challenge rating and what not, but unless your entire party has the exact same level and power progression - that argument is moot. Sometimes you have starkly different character levels in a party - that happens - and isn't a problem - and a DM that cares about their game will find a way to include everyone at the table. DM's have to actually DM, and not just blindly run a module, or rely solely on the crutch of an encounter formula to provide challenging and engaging encounter experiences. Claiming that characters can't regress is flatly incorrect. They can regress - and should - especially when you are trying to teach them that their stupidity should be painful.

[@HoltzWorks]

I know I'm late, but hopefully the comment isn't entirely off-base: I wouldn't call it more "realistic" to lose levels, since... well, it's a fantasy game and you're fighting a monster that could never exist in reality. What it does is bring a sense of *causality* to the game. It brings a very real and long-term consequence to an action (fighting a monster) that would normally have only temporary negative outcomes for the character if successful. HP can be fully regained between adventures. A sword eaten by a rust monster can be replaced. But levels are something the players have worked for and actually value more than anything. Including the character itself sometimes. Anyway, great video!

[@anon_laughing_man]

Nothing made players shit their pants like encountering a level draining undead. LOL This was legit fear.

[@JohnLee-cc4kx]

One of the things I have valued in my characters, was their physical appearance. I mean the list of characters with missing limbs. This said the undead power to turn your hair white! Oh just thinking about it!!!

[@theoldwarlock]

Yes, the undead can change your appearance in fun and interesting ways.

[@Diabolik771]

I never played 5th, I never went past AD&D 1st. I did not know they wussed out on the Undead. Spectres scared me since Expert set almost 40 years later. You don't fuck with them. If the Cleric can do his thing and attempt to turn them but fails, then my guy runs and runs fast. Remember the look on players faces the first time they encountered level drain? HA HA! "Yes, you have been reduced in level. No you cannot heal that back..."

[@theoldwarlock]

And I think the run and run fast rule is critical to an exciting game! It's great to watch a player's eyes get big when they know it's time to leave behind whatever is happening to try and fight another day. Shows they're immersed in what's happening.

[@wildandwackywade]

Another thing I saw in advanced and original dnd was they punished the players too not just a character. If fifth I get the feeling it's chracter based and not intended to punish us the players.

[@ObatongoSensei]

I've always hated the old energy drain as a DM, since it was really hard to manage during games. Too much to rewrite at each level lost. Also, in many cases the energy drain ability was really nonsensical: you get slapped by a corpse and you loose a piece of your soul? Really? That was hard to justify in my mind, so I reworked most of the undead with that ability so that it made a little more sense. In facts, as you pointed out, that ability is the selling point of many otherwise not so powerful creatures. I find that the best level-draining mechanic so far is the one presented in the Pathfinder first edition's Core Rulebook, with negative levels basically dropping down all kinds of level-based scores or abilities without removing them completely. They are just as hard to heal as the ordinary level loss, they are just as debilitating, and they are still quite scary, but they need a lot less paperwork to be managed. I also like the fact that the negative levels can be either temporary, and so they will eventually go away by themselves, or permanent, and so only magic can remove them, allowing for different types of threats during adventuring.

[@russellharrell2747]

In 5E you can have undead giving levels of exhaustion. You’ll see 20th level demigods running and hiding from wights.

[@TieberiusVoidWalker]

Nice video guys! I have been really interested with level drain as an ability as of late so thanks for the vid. I am glad Flute Loots sent me.

[@theoldwarlock]

Glad you enjoyed it! And thanks for letting us know.

[@ravenburns6600]

The best example is Frodo from LOTR. Even when elrond healed Frodo, the wound still remained, eventually took it's toll and claimed his life. It's often said Frodo was already walking dead after his encounter with the Nazguul on weathertop.

[@theoldwarlock]

That's a great tie in. Thanks for the comment!

[@ScottAtkins49]

Part of the problem, I feel, is that in 5e wotc really pushes milestone XP, and suddenly having a PC or two lower level can really mess that up. I've done milestone XP in the past but for my last campaign I used regular XP awards, and I really thought it worked better. As the DM, I could manipulate the XP (if necessary) to speed/slow the PCs progress, so it really wasn't different in that regard (just a tiny bit more work for me). But I feel like the PCs have way more fun getting XP. After every combat my player's would almost always excitedly ask about how much XP they earned. Thanks for the video!

[@theoldwarlock]

Thanks, Scott. I think it's great for DMs to use alternate methods of awarding xp. For many years, I've only given xp for what a character accomplished that was a unique solution or for something that required and produced excellent role play. By and large, nothing for killing and definitely nothing for treasure gained. Players get really focused on problem solving that way and it's worked well.

[@mattia9743]

That is another issue of the way adventures are designed, but that is an old one that started with original Dragonlance campaign. Modules could fit in any campaign, as you were adapted to your story. The adventures of second edition instead already carried the stigmata of the change. Not a case the best adventures of 2nd edition era were appearing on Dungeon Magazine. Third edition, introducing Adventure Paths, made things even worse. Fifth edition foresee basically just that kind of big tomes, where you HAVE to follow the story, and that is why the issue you points out with energy drain becomes evident. Encounters and fight are thought for a certain level. Balance need is another mind shift players did since 3rd edition. To conclude, there is a lack of freedom in modern games which just Old School players percieve, and unless you have a very good DM will be difficult to play the way we used to, in a modular anthological way. If you did not do already, I would advise you to read "Forbidden Lands" rules and one campaign, will help open the mind. Cheers, Mattia (Italy). :)

[@kingVibe111]

I loved this Wizardry game from Japan where the Master Vampires could drain levels. There was this spell called Megadeth, you only had so many casts of it because Vancian, and while it did lots of damage the only real reason I had to use it was because these Vampires who drained your level. It brought resource management into the game later on after you had enough money to get all the healing items you needed. It basically meant you could explore the end of the dungeon as much as those spells allowed. That meant at maximum you had 9, so as soon as you’re 4 in you realize you might not make it out without turning around. This anxiety was exactly what the first few floors felt like because you didn’t have shortcuts unlocked and had to get in and out the long way. It was really well designed to make players still care about dungeon crawling management.

[@theoldwarlock]

Sounds really good. I've wandered away from the time management side of the game in recent years due to laziness and the immersive side of my campaign has suffered because of it. I've been ramping the focus on time back up in just the past few weeks to get things back to where they should be. Your comment gave me yet another needed push in that regard. Thanks!

[@TheHunter_2525]

I certainly agree that undead are not nearly as terrifying as they should be in 5e, but there are other artifacts of more recent editions that make the AD&D level drain system a bit more concerning than it reasonably should be if ported directly. Namely, the increases to accuracy across adventurers and monsters. After a certain point, at least in my experience, it is a statistical wonder if a creature doesn't succeed on its weapon attack. I honestly can't imagine an adventuring party ever accepting a high-level undead bounty, with that level of certainty of losing multiple levels. No reward could possibly justify that cost unless you are enforcing Gygaxian levels of player poverty.

[@isaacthrower]

I feel it’s one of the many reasons ravenloft is one of the best modules out there, and also the death of many partys…

[@RobertWF42]

Wonder why AD&D didn't have flesh eating zombies that can turn characters into zombies if bitten? Too powerful for a low-level undead monster? Actually AD&D ghouls are closer to the zombies we see in movies.

[@theoldwarlock]

Excellent question! I need to go back through some old copies of the dragon and such to see if anyone else did. I may have to look into developing one for my campaign.

[@RobertWF42]

@@theoldwarlock Might be fun to roleplay zombie infection. After each combat with zombies, players (or the DM) secretly roll with AC modifier to see if they have been bitten (which should be a low probability). If they haven't, no worries. But if they have been bitten . . .

[@theoldwarlock]

@@RobertWF42 Excellent idea! Next stage might be some type of Zombie plague rules.

[@Ratenef]

I couldn't agree more. The modern impression of 'undead' is very wanting. The other undead that could drain levels is the spectre, also 2 levels / hit. In 1st ed this level drain was much more scary, as unlike 3rd where you can more easily regain them, in 1st you typically had to regain the lost xp and re-level up. Restoration was possible, but it wasn't easy to come by.

[@JamesEck9095]

Agree with all of your points and viewpoints. ALSO: From a pure mechanical game design point of view level-drain is just one more player-character resource that can be attacked/reduced not unlike torches, hit points, equipment, or whatever else. It is just one more way to ratchet up the intensity/challenge of the game.

[@theoldwarlock]

We agree 100%! These rules don't have to be set in stone, and whatever is going to make someone's game more difficult and exciting is what should be used! Thanks for the comment!

[@TheArcturusProject]

This is quality, unique content! You had an understanding of a subject that had been lost to time, and you presented it clearly. I’ve watched a few other channels that I won’t mention and they just weren’t for me. Some felt like they didn’t have anything new to offer me, others were obnoxious. Lots of them just didn’t really have anything to say, but shared some random improvised ideas about something to make a KZbin video each week. I usually watch 2-5 videos on a channel before either: subscribing and watching them all, or never going back, no matter how much I think their title will resonate with me. (Because I’ve learned it won’t deliver). Quality over quantity! Ever heard of Broscience? You’d be lucky if he did a two videos in two months. But every one was gold and people flocked to the new releases and now he’s a legend. This is 2 videos of yours that have been new and useful, which I don’t find a lot of anymore, after going through all of Matt Coleville DM, DungeonCraft, and working my way through QuestingBeasts content! In short: I’m excited and giving positive feedback! And providing context and background as a benchmark for my review XD

[@theoldwarlock]

Again, Justin, thanks! We're not trying to become KZbin stars. This is just a bit of fun for us but having people find the content worthwhile (and letting us know) is the driver here. Our videos won't all be good, but it's a goal and hopefully you'll find something worth your time now and again.

[@TheRockinDonkey]

I mean, you can play whichever version of the game you like with whatever rules you like. I switched to 5e because it's been ages since I played and my stepdaughter, who I will be playing with plays 5e. if I have to relearn everything anyway, which I do after over a decade, might as well learn what she uses. she'll be more likely to want to play. as a DM, it should be about knowing your audience. Having fun is what's paramount, and if that means a less "dangerous" game for my players, that's what I want to do. now, if they tell me they're down to try 2nd edition and risk some levels going up against vampires, I'm down. but those lost levels are going to slow the game down.

[@mykediemart]

Level drain is not a good mechanic especially when the effect is permanent. Wight grabs me and I forget fireball? I house ruled over to Con loss long ago. And when I do use any level drain I add a save. I also don't use gold = XP so levels are a bit harder earned. I enjoy your insights

[@theoldwarlock]

Thanks, Myke!

[@jamessatter7418]

My favorite undead is a spectre, which also drains levels.

[@theoldwarlock]

We love the spectre as well.

[@pentegarn1]

I couldn't agree more. Its often hard to RP the fear we might feel in real life....but this truly makes them FEAR the undead. Unless their stupid. lol

[@briansmaller7443]

Back in the day some of those undead monsters were really really tough. Nowadays - meh - just another monster to cut through with not much danger to your character.

[@MrSteveK1138]

Count Strahd and his vampire hordes can drain levels. So watch out! 🦇

[@mordrene]

Great description on why the undead are to be feared. If anyone thinks level drain is too harsh then have the undead drain a D8 per level drain Constitution damage. A wight doing 1d4 hp and 2d8 con will get your attention.

[@theoldwarlock]

We agree! This is a great idea, and a great alternative to level drain if that's just a little too much for someone. Anything that makes long-term/permanent damage is what is going to make the undead as scary as they should be. Thanks for the comment!

[@camerongunn7906]

Therein lies the problem with 5th edition all together. By Tenth level are so the characters aren't afraid of anything. They're not even afraid of greatwyrm dragons or, like your video, greater undead. It just highlights how 5th edition mollycoddles players.

[@sLipLeftdEftly]

lvl reduction sounds like it would slow stuff down, having to recalculate stats a lot mid-game. personally i'd go with permanent max h.p. reduction (with a quest based way of regaining, maybe) and for scarier undead, inflicting a level of exhaustion each round of combat in which the P.C. takes damage from the undead, which would have a pretty terrifying death spiral i.m.o. :) could make the exhaustion harder to shake too. anyhow thank for the interesting vid :)

[@theoldwarlock]

You're welcome JT. We've seen a lot of interesting approaches to adding terror to the undead without level drain. Great ideas!

[@sLipLeftdEftly]

thanks @@theoldwarlock :) the more i think about it- exhaustion that lasts until a long rest on holy ground attended by a cleric performing a night-long ritual would be lean into the vampire's strengths: i can envision a long escape to a temple: each night the vampires attack, and once the afflicted are rolling saves at disadvantage then the vampiric charm ability is going to have people disappearing if their friends don't prevent it, could make for some interesting attritional play :) anyway, thanks for listening to my ramblings on the subject :)

[@GlenHallstrom]

Okay, I've always been kinda on the fence regarding level drains. I see the need as a GM but as a player, it just comes down to it's a PITA to have to refigure your character level in the middle of the game. As for vampires, mine don't level drain (I use the Nosferatu Vampire from the D&D Creature Catalog). I'd rather have them do extra hit point damage if they latch on to you a la stirges because level drain IMO doesn't fir the vampire. They're blood-suckers, make them get a constant HP drain for X anount of rounds unless someone gets them off the target.

[@theoldwarlock]

We've had a lot of people mention the annoyance of basically having to back your character up when a level(s) is drained. I like the blood-sucking vampire idea. May have to integrate a Nosferatu variety into my campaign.

[@BrawlerGamma]

Personally I was never much a fan of the idea of level drain for the reason that, while it's a really good reason to be afraid of a creature, to my mind, it's kind of fiddly and abstract. Maybe in practice it's not so bad, but that's my take. I do like major consequences and the fear you get from something so severe being at risk, though. I'll probably go dipping into this idea once I start doing stuff in some of the games I'm interested in that are a little more light on explicit rules for the purposes of letting you come up with your own... One thing that comes to mind off the top of my head as a possibility is inflicting an ailment on the player that lets them roll saves every so often, and if they fail, lose a small but not insignificant amount of XP, that can only be cured in very specific conditions that aren't easy to fulfil. Depending on circumstances, maybe throw 'em a bone on the cure the first time then make it clear it will be *much* more difficult to acquire next time... Something like that maybe, I dunno. 🤔

[@theoldwarlock]

Excellent idea! Like a chronic wasting disease unless cured in a less than easy way. We've had some other comments sent to us that are similar. Maybe have the effects of being struck by the undead be more dangerous each time it happens in separate incidents?

[@FlutesLoot]

I think level drain is a terrifying threat! I played Baldur's Gate 2 and I always panicked when fighting vampires. I always kept the restoration spells handy and plentiful. Regarding level drain in 5e, there are several monster abilities that are similar to level drain (vampire include). I know they're not the same as level drain, but they exist. I believe 5e's versions of level drain are scary, but they are "cured" too easily with resting. In my opinion, the gripe with 5e is more that resting cures too many conditions. Having stats or hitpoints reduced is much scarier when you can't rest it off. From a logistical point of view, I have a question. Does level drain dramatically slow down the game? Most people I play with would have their eyes cross if they had to reverse engineer their character level mid-fight, possibly several times. As I mentioned Baldur's Gate 2, it was easy since it was a video game. I don't imagine it would be easy to handle mid-fight as a tabletop RPG without computers automatically adjusting character abilities. I really think the absence of pure level drain in 5e is a game design choice more than a change made for wimps (or whatever someone's sentiment about it may be). Level drain seems clunky from a design standpoint. I'd really like to hear perspectives from people who have played with level drain at their game. I think I'll have to write an article about level drain in 5e. It'd be easy to implement by making undead creatures' draining effects more "sticky" beyond long rests and to use exhaustion mechanics. Great topic, thanks for the video!

[@FlutesLoot]

I wrote an article and recorded a video about level drain in 5e! You inspired me, so I gave you a shout out in my video. Keep up the great content. :)

[@theoldwarlock]

Thanks Flutes Loot! We watched the video and the shout out is greatly appreciated. We look forward to investigating more of your content.

[@FlutesLoot]

@@theoldwarlock You're welcome! I look forward to any new releases from your team.

[@colebenacquista3338]

I found myself on the wrong side of level drain in 3.5 so frequently I stopped planning ahead lol

[@rickwilliams7984]

Hey it's Rick again and you've got it right as always their there to challenge you and you, should fear them, I had a friend.who used to was one of my players in my Old School D&D game world and he use to just really hated the undead in my games especially as he would put it "No, Not! Those F*fucking Whites again, please Don't D.M.!" and I'd tell him well your the one that rolled it on the wondering encounter on the monster table, well it was some crazy good adventures an times we did have May Thee Un-Beheld bless his spirit and keep him. Yeah you're right the undead are supposed to be dangerous, their energy-drain abilities are tied to the connection to the negative planes of existence, that why it was never to be so watered down. It's supposed to challenge the player's characters as a whole group and as a Dungeon Master you must see if as a group if they are ready for the greater chance of challenges and Awesome wonders in the adventures to come. Well I hope you keep your witts Sharper than your swords my friend,till next time Blessed Be Thee. Rick Post Script: (D.M.s note always play clever! Thus it's a start and/or a chance at survival in the Game.)

[@theoldwarlock]

Agreed - when your players eyes get wide and they start to cringe, you know the undead are being treated as they should.

[@grymhild]

I've been DMing since 1981, and I've never liked draining xp. I prefer draining Constitution points

[@theoldwarlock]

We've had a lot of people tell us they do something similar to that. Sometimes Strength and Constitution.

[@clone_69]

3e had a nice middle ground with negative levels. Yes, they are not permanent and you can remove them, but a failed save means they become permanent. Still, bot AD&D and 3e are preferable to 5e's max HP reduction that you can simply sleep off.

[@joelstein535]

AD&D - draining creatures? Try a spectre: TWO levels per hit!

[@austinreed7343]

I feel like a good solution would be to give the players a chance to regain their lost levels, under certain circumstances. For example, what if they could expend the levels they steal to perform powerful attacks?

[@theoldwarlock]

Good suggestion. A lot of people have stated that they give players the chance to regain those lost levels through some type of adventure. And using levels as a source of power is a great idea.

[@freddaniel5099]

Level drain is a litmus test for traditional D&D or not. If you fear level loss too much to face it at the table, well, that kinda says "test - failed". I guess traditional D&D isn't for everyone.

[@theoldwarlock]

I agree completely. And "fear level loss too much to face it at the table," really puts the mechanic in perspective for me regarding traditional/old school style of play. You're right, it's not for everyone and that's okay. But we wouldn't have it any other way. Thanks for the comment, Fred!

[@RoninCatholic]

Honestly, it's _only_ wights that should drain experience levels specifically, since they're conceptually based on memory stealing/erasing undead from Lord of the Rings (likely based on some folk story or another, knowing what I do about Tolkien). Other undead like ghosts and vampires should instead do permanent drains to other stats, like intelligence or wisdom for ghosts and constitution and max HP for vampires. Permanent drop to an ability score should give as much dread as permanent loss of learned skill, and be different.

[@theoldwarlock]

We've heard from a number of people that use the same type of mechanic. And you're right, ability score loss is equally terrifying.

[@BlackEcology]

Wizards deliberately removed punishing effects so people "feel good" the entire time they're playing RPG's. It's not about creative/skillful thinking anymore. It's about 5th wave generation nerds not having their feelings hurt in a "threatening" or "competitive" game. Lots of the friends I game with now who are from this current gen are always getting low self esteem if they are punished in a game. Then they turn off and quit. Wizards is just creating games for the lowest common denominator (no punishment / "role players" who want to just do stupid voices and be a super hero at the table).

[@theoldwarlock]

We agree!!! Part of the fun of the game is the obstacles that players have to overcome during their adventures. Making things too easy takes away some of the fun. KYSAF!

[@toddvanevenhoven7736]

One vibe I'm getting from this is that these creatures (Appearance, attack) causes immediate shell shock and the PC is so traumatized by what he has seen or been attacked by he loses a level, skills or attritibutes (Depending on the DM). Personally, I'd go with PC being at -1 on all rolls against the creature the 2d round on if fails initial save. Then if fails 2d save loses 1 pt in ability which is determined by creature and situation. 3d fail loses morale and flees (And thereafter suffers permanent -1 on rolls in future against such creatures). However, in interests of heroic roleplaying can overcome this in a later encounter which would make for a good story. I'd have the -1 to ability last awhile but not be permanent at DM and players discretion. Again opportunity for roleplaying and future storytelling. Maybe the PC really needs to make an important roll using that lost ability and finds it in himself to overcome the loss with courage and grit...or fails which also would make for good storytelling.

[@theoldwarlock]

Storytelling is definitely an important aspect! There are lots of different ways of going about it, but we definitely feel that players should be put at a disadvantage when it comes to fighting the undead. Thanks for your comment and keep your sword arm free!

[@jorrinn1995]

I'm 53. Played 1st and 2end AD&D for 12ish years. I never had a character get over 6th level. I absolutely hate 2end ed level drain. The idea that all the time i put into this game, months normally, to get one level was just striped from me.. It's one reason I will never play second edition again.

[@seanvigil2899]

Ah, level drain and xp cost. Oh the memories. I think it is an interesting dichotomy of the roleplaying and game aspects of ttrpgs. On the roleplaying side it does add a huge threat to encounters, but is frustrating from loosing features and extra book keeping. The game side it is a resource that can be used and exploited for threat and game feel. My personal taste is not in favor on monsters, but more environmental and story based encounters. Time warps and knowledge stealing tomes fit the mechanic better. Letting them choose to mess with pandora's box is so much more fun with a little bit of telegraphing. Huh around this ancient book are a bunch of small humanoid skeletons and adult size clothing, better mess with it! My 5e style approach with it. I think the shift in the general play style of people is what turns people off on level drain. The shift to the more roleplaying side is the current swing of the pendulum, but the OSR undercurrent is growing. I know I'm feeling it!

[@anon_laughing_man]

Levels = LIFE FORCE Undead drain life force.

[@Marcus-ki1en]

I use the level drain effects, but... once a week I have the characters roll a system shock % and they can gain the level back. As a player, I experienced a TPK when a new DM put a Banshee in the first room of a dungeon for us as 1st level characters. We walked in, she wailed, we all failed our saves and end of adventure. Not fun at all. Waste of an afternoon.

[@theoldwarlock]

That's an interesting way to go about some recovery for it! We love hearing about how everyone uses and adapts these rules for their own campaign. Thanks for the comment, and keep your sword arm free!

[@VladimirPutin-p3t]

MY 63rd LEVEL DRAGON BORN BARBARIAN WARLOCK PALADIN PICK POCKET BARD MONK CAN VANQUISH ANY UNDEAD WITH THE SNAP OF A FINGER - WHILE WALKING BACKWARDS AND CRAFTING A +3 ALL-WISHES DECK OF MANY THINGS

[@youtube-critic]

Great video guys

[@theoldwarlock]

Glad you liked it. Thanks!

[@thatswinelord9155]

Hi im a new dm to 3.5 i play advanced dungeons and dragons with my dad and two other players. I was wondering how i should handle energy drain for my players in 3.5 that have only played 5e.

[@theoldwarlock]

Check out this forum page - forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?664040-3-5-Energy-Drain-Negative-Level-Level-drain-Resource. The energy drain from this will be a little easier than 1st edition (if things go the players' way) but the threat is still there. And it can still get pretty bad if things go wrong.

[@billfleming6880]

I only hate the level drain because of having to refigure out the math and abilities lost, saves, it's slow to deal with. But I love most all other aspects of the game.

[@theoldwarlock]

We've had a number of people say that that is their biggest problem with level drain but they enjoy the concept.

[@billfleming6880]

I agree, alternate forms of draining are awesome also, ability point draining, aging, I've even house ruled knowledge draining (ie. taking away nwp proficiency slots) although I always tend to make it temporary or a quest sometimes needs to be done in order to re-attain them. @@theoldwarlock

[@Joshuazx]

I agree with making monsters scarier. Level drain and etc. Do you fellows use save or die mechanics?

[@theoldwarlock]

Hi Joshua. I use save or die. Some other DMs I play with do not. For me it follows that same fear factor concept that level draining undead do. How about yourself?

[@Joshuazx]

@@theoldwarlock i do not. I play with people who did not grow up with older d&d rules and have no appreciation for it. I think save or die is fantastic for sure.

[@paavohirn3728]

Having gone through most editions since the late 80's and currently favoring OSR variants i have to say I never liked level drain as a DM or as a player. I don't like instant kill poison either. I do appreciate the discussion though and i get the terror aspect of it. As a DM i know that for at least some players level drain would ruin their enjoyment. Hp loss is gradual and there should be a real possibility of death. This makes it so that players usually have a chance to adapt to the situation and feel like the best combat is one avoided. To make it work, there needs to be real options like sneaking, fleeing, recon and planning. Foreshadowing can be used to invoke horror and using homebrew monsters the players aren't familiar with works. In my system characters struck down to 0 hp aren't dead unless my mortal wound chart says so but they are incapacitated at least a while after the fight. In Worlds Without Number i like the system of frailty where the character remains vulnerable (instant death at 0) until a week long rest even if they are healed up to max hp.

[@theoldwarlock]

Many people don't like the level drain idea. It's been great to have many people list what they do instead. I need to look into Worlds Without Number. It's been mentioned several times. Thanks, Paavo!

[@paavohirn3728]

@@theoldwarlock I haven't actually come up with a favored replacement for level drain. I suppose I'd just use negative modifiers that are somewhat hard to get rid of. It feels a bit lame but I guess I'd lean into narrating how it feels and if course it's very dangerous for the characters as well.

[@mattia9743]

"Are you scared?" "Yes" "Not scared enough."

[@marcusgrimmm]

I've been playing D&D since the 80's and I always thought level drains were ridiculous, undead steal your lifeforce not your life experiences and accomplishments. We house ruled it that you would lose HP that can only be healed by restoration magic. This way undead were still dangerous but players weren't wasting time regaining lost levels that they already earned.

[@Diabolik771]

Weak

[@AFK0099]

Honestly still on the fence because mechanically that's super messy but really cool narratively.

[@theoldwarlock]

The messy mechanics is the thing most people don't like. The narrative works for almost everyone but, unless you prepare for such things as your character progresses, it can be a bit of a nightmare to reverse accomplishments.

[@AFK0099]

@@theoldwarlock So I'm doing it. I've given the undead back their teeth for my game. This week my party will fear the undead.

[@nicka3697]

The turn undead feature in 5e is really lacklustre. You can't possibly turn a Wight until 14th level long after most campaigns have ended and by that time your fighter can shoot enough arrows to reliably kill it in a round or two your spell casters can obliterate in one round and you can make it run away if it fails it's saving throw. Clerics in 5e no longer feel like the undead destroyers I remember from AD&D. And yes the undead do just feel like any other monster unless your group consciously leans into the vibe but that is not the only problem. Level drain is more problematic in a system where you get so many diverse powers and features as you level that subtracting two or three levels is a housekeeping nightmare. I think there might be simpler options like loosing hit dice and having your max HP reduced permanently or for a significant amount of time (months or years) could provide the necessary fear. The real problem with the Wight in 5e is not that it doesn't reduce levels it's that the HP life drain is undone by just 8 hours sleepy time.

[@theoldwarlock]

One of the best things about doing that video was seeing the range of responses we got regarding the ways people house-ruled level drain. Lot of cool ideas.

[@monicavix6036]

So, I'm halfway through this video and there's one major thing that I feel separates modern DnD from older editions: The mentality between players and the DM. From what I can gleam from watching videos on older editions, it feels like a very "player vs DM" mindset which, in my opinion, can make the game infinitely less fun. More modern games, such as taking a peak into Critical Role (even though I personally don't like it) feels more like "cooperative story telling" than a full mind war between the DM and the other nerds at the table. If I were to personally add these effects into my modern games, it'll be less intense and be able to keep a story going. IE, decrease maximum hitpoints, spell slots, number of X ability such as a Monk's Ki or Sorcerer's Sorcery Points. Make the party venture out to fight undead, they get hurt in more ways than just "haha, I have a sword in my gut! :D," and then have to proceed into a dark, mystical place to try to find a cure for this ailment. And even then, tie it in with a character's backstory! Maybe one of the characters has experienced it and can find the ingredients easier, or have a contact to do more to overcome it. To give a TL;DR from my dumbass rambling: Take these old, aggressive rules and rework them in a way that helps build into a story rather than harming the characters in an irreversible way other than grinding out levels. Edit: We also need more unique mechanics and lingering injuries, anyways! I mean, what if your character gets the shit beat out of them and has a brutal wound that needs time to heal. The modern long/short rest system really doesn't help, either.

[@theoldwarlock]

You make some really good points. I have to disagree (somewhat) with your player vs. DM comment, however. True, I have seen many DMs over the years who have considered themselves to be in an adversarial relationship with players (often just the result of ego). But, their campaigns didn't usually last long because the DM always held all the cards and the players were loathe to attempt anything the DM might not like. What fun is that? In the end, it really comes down to what is the level of trust between the players and DM? All the old school people I play with understand that a high level of trust is imperative to a truly great game. Great cooperative storytelling for us comes about when the DM sets up the backstory for an often harsh, dangerous environment that demands cooperation among the players if they are to survive. Level drain is just a small mechanic in that concept. We see the DM's storytelling role as not being the same as that of the players. The DM creates the skeleton of a possible story while its up to the players to flesh it out in a way they want with the DM there to help as needed. The excitement, for us anyway, comes from peril and knowing good problem solving is the key to getting by it. BUT, the DM HAS to apply the rules fairly and evenly to ensure a game structure the players can rely on for good decision making. Yes, the rules in old school RPGing are often harsh, but we believe that if there is a lot to lose, surviving is that much more fun. Anyway, my two cents worth. Thanks for the thoughtful comments! I enjoyed them!

[@Taricus]

energy drain = long covid and you have to gain back your ability to smell LOL!

[@artao5]

Level drain is fine, but as implemented it's a bit OP. The character should get a save, for one thing; with a fair chance of making it. And not drain TWO levels. Ouch. But otherwise yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I also think ALL corporeal undead should have a chance of causing disease when they hit.

[@theoldwarlock]

We've added disease into many of our undead. It's always made logical sense to me.

[@thedeaforc]

They make me piss myself. Got seduced by a vampire once. Before I totally became a vampire, I blew myself up with my enemy(Aztec king) with 5 pounds of TNT.

[@Ti-nf4fq]

Play the game using the random generator at the end of the DMG. Roll up the characters according to the players handbook. Enjoy. Hehehe

[@theoldwarlock]

That sounds like it could be a fun time. If we do it we'll have to let you know.

[@dreamingdark1817]

Having started playing in AD&D, Energy Drain/Level Drain is a terrible mechanic. Having to de-level characters each round bogs down everything. 3e at least had a better mechanic for the during combat effect of the level drain saving the actual recalculations for after the battle is over. Been a while since I have flipped through the books but from what I remember in AD&D there was one spell in the PHB that could be used as a defense to level drain it was decently high level (I think 4th level), gave only a potential chance to negate a level drain hit and worked for only one hit per casting. I find this to be a lazy way of creating fear. A heavy handed mechanical stick to beat the players with rather than using deeds of the villain to inspire terror and loathing. In all the time I have been running games I have never used it in AD&D or 3e but have seen it used/been in games with it. I have never had trouble instilling fear of a vampire or other powerful undead foes if the player has any investment in the game/character they are playing.

[@gryphonwilson7415]

But that isn't really a fitting criticism as 1st Ed AD&D had a player sheet that allowed for easy tracking of how many hit points were gained in a level, and the system for ThAC0 was such that every two levels it got better. So if you went from level 4 to 3 from a level drain, your ThAC0 would be untouched. But from 5th to 4th or 3rd to 2nd and you were looking at a real drop in combat effectiveness

[@dreamingdark1817]

@@gryphonwilson7415 I never had access to or saw a sheet that logged every level change individually. I started in AD&D 2e. That would make it a much easier de-leveling process. Admittedly we could have done that on our own had we thought about it but extra effort just to make getting penalized easier is not usually a consideration for most. It has been a long time since I last ran AD&D, this mechanic is one of the few I remember as being a problem at the table. (2e psionics outside of Dark Sun is the other big one.) I still remember a comment from a player learning about level drain for the first time: "Wow if we try to deal with this thing, even if we win we still lose." Saw a group once abandon an adventure because it had level draining undead. When they found out, as a group they decided shifting toward neutral alignments and leaving a town to die was better than possible level loss.

[@gryphonwilson7415]

@@dreamingdark1817 That last point you touched on right there is the exact conundrum that the undead pose in AD&D, and it actually involves the players in strategic discussion of how they can approach an adventure. As a player, it is a crummy thing, but you are looking at it from a point of view of mechanics rather than roleplaying, the other form of gameplay in D&D. Sometimes, there are adventures the heroes cannot win in, and that is fine. I think this approach as a DM or even a player, of making an encounter that the players cannot beat now but can come back to with proper preparation, is integral for a healthy group dynamic. The only problem is the DM overdoing the insurmountable challenges.

[@dreamingdark1817]

​@@gryphonwilson7415 I agree that having situations or creatures that you can't win against immediately is important from time to time. Works just fine without level drain in the mix. Doubt the level 5 group is charging off to face the Red Dragon that is extorting the local villages. The group that left the village to die never went back. Zero interest in ever dealing with that risk. Was it metagaming? Yeah it probably was but most players I have had viewed having to fight level drain monsters as worse than the character just dying. At higher levels they probably could have gone back and with high level magic spells just wiped everything out before it could get close. If the go to solution for level drain is wait til you can nuke the site from orbit or the DM has to write in some sort of plot device way to deal with it that seems like an issue. Only deal with a vampire if it is noon and you know the location of its coffin (admittedly this one is at least thematic if feeling a bit anticlimactic.)

[@IbnShisha1]

One of my 2e characters hit 9th level... ... 4 times.