Why You Should NOT Get a Patent!

Let's talk about why you should NOT get a patent, what patents are, and other intellectual property buzzwords and laws that you should know as an entrepreneur!
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kern-kendrick.com/
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[@davidsirmons]

"It's all about execution." So I should hire a hitman to take out patent infringers. Fair enough. :D

[@chihuynh4204]

I made a lot of money licensing many patents. Simple I would have not made a dollar without it. This a joke.

[@amirzargham1167]

Haha will cost less!

[@treatb09]

@@chihuynh4204 exactly, you make money by being a predator to a guy that is being picked at like a whale in a pond full of piranha

[@malikasuzetteuniversalbomb8240]

of they sold my design and claimed it themselves by trading my brain yes

[@michaelcarey9359]

Hire a hitman to take out patent infringers? I think there's a patent on that process.

[@carver3419]

I guess times have changed. Years ago, a friend's father, a machine shop owner in New York, invented and patented several tools for making men's hats. A large company infringed on his patents, and he won a judgement. The offending company had to not only pay him a substantial compensation, but also had to relinquish all of their inventory and spare parts. With all of this, my friend's dad had enough products on hand that he never had to make anymore himself.

[@BEACHYz]

carver3419 interesting,.. how long ago was that?

[@crocellian2972]

carver3419 - Happens every day (literally.) My firm won $2.8B this year alone.

[@carver3419]

"interesting,.. how long ago was that?" I dropped in to the old man's machine shop on Bleeker Street in NYC in the early 1960s. He told me the story - and showed me some of the tools he invented. I was later told that during WWII he couldn't get enough materiel to run his shop full time, so he opened a hat factory on Canal Street during the war. I assumed the suit was in the '50s, but my friend has died and I have no way to check.

[@MsSomeonenew]

Well these days you just need expensive enough lawyers, someone who can match the corporate expenses. For the individual this just doesn't work out, especially when infringing companies learn how to make an almost copy which can't be exactly matched so it is down to who makes their argument better.

[@NickDanzinger]

These days, it's hundreds of Chinese factories that will infringe on your patents and they don't give AF about US-based litigation. NYC CNC is completely correct with his video.

[@imabeapirate]

I just filed for my first preliminary patent. I think all inventors should at least go through the process. I learned a ton, and not just about what I invented and the law. Sure, I may not be able to defend it if a Fortune 500 company infringes on it, but having a legal justification which proves I am an inventor is a positive professional discriminator, and opens up new opportunities and resources. A patent also shows that no only are you innovative and can find novel solutions to relevant and complex problems, but that you have the work ethic and drive to document what you've worked hard to design. If all you see is what things cost, you may want to take a look under the surface. Because in the end, it's not about the money, and I am absolutely better off with the experience.

[@mihailfelixdumitresc]

I concur to John on this. To imabeapirate : please come back in a few years time and share with us what you've learned over these years; most likely it will not resemble what you are saying here. I hold 3 patents in 3 different countries (Europe) and If I were to start all over again, I would definitely stay away from any patent process. If you have a say when it comes to a new product, it is customers that will pay for your idea/product/efforts/hopes/dreams/etc. Just my 2 cents.

[@sl4983]

To both of you, how has it gone with your patents? Mihai, wouldn't getting a patent protect from someone ELSE trying to stop you from making/selling the product?

[@simonellis6484]

Me to I could write a book on it!

[@suharsh96]

Wow this is a good perspective!

[@AwestrikeFearofGods]

@@sl4983 I'm pretty sure you can't file a patent for products that are already in the marketplace.

[@6061]

Three minutes into this video and you've completely nailed it. 0:00-3:00 was my exact experience. It completely depends on everyone's exact scenario, but this seems to be very common in the machining and fabrication field.

[@LeckieInstallsLondon]

while they talk about McDonald's, all I can see is the yellow air line on the mill which clearly infringes the McDonald's trade mark!

[@lordmcted]

haha, well spotted.

[@rabiesbabies2614]

Dude you can't patent horse meat sandwiches AKA mc burger..

[@Tedd755]

Look at all those golden arches..

[@chucksierraflpd]

Well played ... oops I ripped off Cheetos Chester cheetah

[@tobystewart4403]

As a former corporate commercial attorney, I find the legal discussion is a little anachronistic. I side with motion that small shops ought not get patents. My reasoning is that patents are useful for actions between manufacturers of products that are subject to mass distribution. Therefore the "age of patents" was pretty much the age of mass distribution, which was tied to the age of mass media. I say "was", because that age seems to be passing. Socialist states still have mass distribution, however surveillance capitalism is creating a reemergence of tailored distribution networks, and local brokers with local endorsements. To understand why patent law is pretty much useless with tailored distribution networks, imagine trying to rip off Matsura machines. You would have to work so hard to copy their precision that you would be a master tool maker in your own right. Their customised, continuous discipline of excellence precludes theft of IP. As Steve Jobs said, you can't steal excellence. Nor can you patent it. Therefore, if you are a small shop, or otherwise wish to build a business based on local endorsement and tailored distribution networks, it follows that your focus must be upon excellence, and the value of human relationships that endorse your values in the local network. Patents, and their lawyers, are for planned economies of scale. If you are in one, get one.

[@crypastesomemore8348]

Ok, but not everyone is trying to rip off Matsura machines. They’re usually ripping off claimed utility on a less granular scale.

[@ChrisEudy-ut4rs]

@@crypastesomemore8348 it's an example of excellence that's it

[@anthonyalder7066]

Thanks for the video. This is an interesting topic as I am actually a Patent Attorney and file a lot of patents globally. Utility Patents are not the solution for every invention. I recommend talking to patent attorney about your invention before commercialising as once you have sold or published your invention its often too late to claw back inventorship rights. Often a cheaper way of protecting smaller innovations is to apply for a Design Patent which cost significantly less and are much easier to enforce as there is no argument about claim language and the innovation only has to be new and not necessarily inventive.

[@F1DesignUS]

Great video John. My team went through the actions of a patent to find out what you did. Also we have since discovered that some of our friends in Asia do not care about the patent at all and they will be happy to copy your idea for their profits!

[@Karonclip]

Mostly china 😂

[@Cerberus984]

@@Karonclip Ironically, Apple is notorious for lawfare against competitors over petty visual distinctions such as icons for apps having rounded edges justifying a trademark or something.. some poetic justice being Apple being sued for design theft from Chinese company who ironically stole their design from Apple insider spies. SMH LOL

[@mikeselectricstuff]

The idea is maybe 10-20% of a product - as you said, it's all in the execution and the work to bring it to market

[@nicolashrv]

this is why you have problems AFTER you sold your product, because it is then when the counterfit goes handy......it will be stupid to counterfit something you will not know it sells or not.

[@igbc176]

@SaltyBrains agree. Im working on my idea and its hard work. And nobody would help until they see success

[@kingpiece1042]

It comes down to this you got to be better than your competitor

[@sl4983]

Unless the competitor tells you to stop copying their patent?

[@phpn99]

You will spend the 50K if the invention makes you much more money than 50K. If the invention doesn't earn money, then you don't enforce it.

[@scottwhittle6319]

you can do a lot of the leg work yourself and save $. and i agree about the "it is your option to enforce"...

[@evbunke2]

John I feel as if you weren't listening to your friend. It seems like the whole time he was giving reasons why parents can actually be helpful, and then you would chime in and say "yeah that's right DON'T GET A PATENT". It seems like is a more gray area than you thought.

[@cocoaccom1953]

couldn't agree more!!!

[@sylanski1]

No offense and no disrespect, but it's seriously disgusting that the world works the way it does. There's always someone taking a piece of something that someone else worked for. Why would a patent be $50k... like seriously!? Just people getting rich off of other people.

[@DanGaiser]

You are wrong and giving out stupid advice. A few decades ago, before LED lighting was a thing, I worked for a vending company in Maryland. My boss CJ invented these LED Strips to put in the vending machines in place of the long bulbs. This was to make the machines use less electricity, and to spend less time going to machines all over Maryland, Virginia, and DC, changing out light bulbs all the time. We made thousands of them in the basement of our warehouse, many of which I made by hand, one component at a time, soldered into place. I tried for a long time to convince CJ to get a Patent but he was always cheap and decided not to do it. Also I tried to convince him that if we can make this LED Strips to replace the long Fluorescent bulbs, then why not reconfigure that design into the traditional lightbulb shape to sell to the average homeowner. He said it would never work, and here we are decades later and he's now kicking himself for not listening to me. Also, another company liked our light strips so much, they decided to get a patent on them and manufacturer and sell them. They also sued my boss to force him to stop making them. They Won.

[@Sootmaker]

There is a time and a place to file patents. As a start up, it's a tough call if it's financially viable to shell out the bucks. If it s a REVOLUTIONARY product or item, that might make it easier or more viable to go down that road but it is an item by item decision. Years ago when I started, I had an old customer tell me......."Come up with something and pound the crap out of it and make every penny you can making, selling and marketing that product. When someone else comes along and starts the same thing, it's time to change. When that 3rd entity starts production, walk away, the market is diluted and move on to your next venture. Sounds odd but it has worked every time and made me wheel barrows of bucks. I don't care about the design or monies after I leave the idea, it's old and time to go for it on something else. Let the next guy make what he can, I have already made my money. I'm like John, small company that has regular customers but also hammers out the job shop type work only I work in wood. Life has been good to me and the way I do it works and works well.

[@eccemono6853]

This made me decide to push through with the production and getting my invention to market and focus all my money and energy to the creation part not the patenting part that is very draining, vague and has very small benefit for someone like me who is just starting out

[@Abom79]

Enjoyed the chat guys, lots of helpful info there!

[@DA-zh9gi]

I agree. I spent about $300K on numerous worldwide patents and then when it comes to enforcing it, the large companies has setup the system so that it is impossible to defend it without several hundred thousand more to defend it. The patent system is totally screwed.

[@Keith_Ward]

Patents in general have stifled creativity. I used to keep a notebook of my ideas for potential patent but pretty much just keep it now as a wish list of things to make/use. I'll never get a patent from the reasons cited here in John's video and from research I did 20-30 years ago. Like many have said before, it takes money to make money, and there is no better example than patents. Much better to just contribute as open source software/hardware. The Chinese see all ideas (patented or not) as "sharing" in order to make whatever they want. It would be next to impossible to stop them or anyone like them.

[@b3nsb3nz]

Glad you had an attorney in this video, as I have recently learned myself you need to talk to someone who actually knows what they are talking about. The law is not something an entrepreneur should be trying to take on, its not a problem you can easily solve by working it out yourself, researching on the internet, watching youtube videos or asking friends (unless they are attorneys). There is a point at which your (mine, the entrepreneur ect.) cheapness is a huge detriment to your business. I watched this video and came to the opposite conclusion of the video title.

[@b3nsb3nz]

NYC CNC I would just say don't let the "potential nightmare" of having to defend a patent immediately put you into a mindset that a patent is beyond you or not for you. I used to think that myself until I spoke with people that have patents and spoke with a good/reputable IP firm. I have come to believe that the process of having experienced people perform a prior art search is a great way to help you understand if what you think is a great idea actually is, and it is immensely valuable in helping you make the decision of taking the next step to file an application or not. I'm surprised Tye didn't touch on that, because the more I learn the more I believe doing so is one of the most essential steps in the process.

[@crocellian2972]

bensbenz - Dead nuts on. You get it.

[@longlivepunk]

Hopefully you guys can shed some light on my situation if you don't mind: I have an idea I've been sitting on that I don't want to develop. I have the basic idea, you could run in a dozen different directions with it, and to be honest: some of them are over my head. What I'd like to do is take my idea to some companies, and see if they'd like to buy it from me. I assume here that I would need a patent, right? I have no protection if I go out and shop my idea around without at least having submitted? Or is that where the one year rule comes into effect?

[@StraightThread]

Manufacturing corporations usually will not even listen to your pitch because likely they are doing R & D themselves and could be working on something similar. If they were to listen to your pitch and subsequently introduce their product to market, they would be susceptible to being sued by you claiming they stole your idea. If you try to sell an idea that you have no patent on, then you are most likely wasting your time and money. If your idea has potential value, your best interests would be served if you seek out competent legal advise to guide you.

[@davidaustin6962]

bensbenz a thorough search is *the* most essential step, if only to learn how to make your invention, and patent, better.

[@CSSIandAssociate]

John keep putting out vids on business. I went to law school. Not to be a lawyer to be a more informed business professional. You get paid on what you know not on what you don't know. The topic of patents you and I are the only ones I have come across that actually know it really doesn't matter. With the exception if you want to sell the company and the buyer wants that protection. Excellent video. You are definitely setting yourself apart. Keep it going. Will from Akron, Ohio

[@anthonyburke5656]

As a youngster, I invented a system related to safety, I patented it, then the US military stole the patented system and installed it on military gear. I rapidly found that it was impossible to sue them and win. So, in revenge against the company that built the gear for the US military, I released all rights in the system to every competitor of that company and we engaged in “cross licensing” where we each had free use of the others patented things. Later we came up with the auto cross licensing of improvements, so the constant creep of development was covered. The firm that stole my idea and sold it to the US government is now about 1/10th the size it was back then.

[@ChrisEudy-ut4rs]

How do you pass the sniff test? 😮

[@mr.winrace5850]

Exactly. Say you have a patent and a big company violates your patent... They will drag out the lawsuit until you can't afford to pursue any longer. So the conclusion is that a patent isn't worth the paper it's written on. Unless you can license it out or sell it like Ty talked about.

[@CrippleConcepts]

Thank you for covering this, I think there is a perception most of us have that patents are the path to making money. After extensively researching patents, I concluded open source for most products is the better choice for society and can still be very very profitable. In my opinion patents stifle creativity. Trademarks and copyrights are important though, I don't mind someone selling a copy of my product but I would be furious if they put my company name on it.

[@crocellian2972]

Cripple Concepts - Groan. To sum up your point, just give it to the Chinese or Indians. You have a crappy attorney.

[@MrRedwires]

The thing is, and I agree with Cripple Concepts here - That patents limit. Look at 3D printers. Patented around 1980; the patent then eventually ran out, giving way for an open and active DIY community. Rarely has a concept exploded AND became so widely and cheaply available for EVERYONE. Additionally: If you are the original creator and you strive for the fine, well-made details, and offer great quality for good price, then your product will sell. Chinese or Indian copies just won't have the same appeal. Even if they are cheaper - they still probably won't be as good as yours.

[@CrippleConcepts]

John - Absolutely true. Some industries, products, and customers are more conducive to open source than others. I work primarily on accessories for power wheelchairs, an industry that is heavily regulated, very proprietary, hard to enter, and that has resulted in archaic equipment, expensive equipment, and minimal ability for consumers to enhance the equipment they rely on. If your customers aren't asking for open source, if a concept is truly novel, if disclosure of design specs could lead to illegal or dangerous use of your product, or there is high probability someone can use your idea and under sell or out market you then I agree 100% on no patent but closed source. For very novel ideas, especially those ideas that are very costly/risky to develop (pharmaceuticals come to mind) I think patents with a limited life make sense. Your SMW products are great examples of products not worth patenting, making open source would probably not benefit many people, and whether open or closed source could be easily replicated but likely at a lower quality.

[@CrippleConcepts]

Crocellian - As I stated in my reply to John, what your product is and what your goal is with that product matters. If somebody want to replicate my products and sell them I will be ecstatic. I sell products to improve people's lives and most of my customers are impoverished. I get more pleasure from designing and prototyping than mass producing. I do not want to spend every dime I make fighting lawsuits to defend international patents. Lots of open source companies are extremely profitable, Lulzbot and Adafruit being two companies who are leaders in open source hardware. Patents are not right for every product, open source is not right for every company or product, I appreciate John giving his opinion and having a patent attorney give his opinion in this video, there is no one size fits all approach to intellectual property rights. I have heard John talk repeatedly about his position on partners, I have listened/read the opinions of numerous other entrepreneurs on the issue of partners, like with intellectual property decisions the decision to take on partners is very individual.

[@MrShobar]

I think that Todd did a very good job with the discussion. He can't (and no patent attorney can) pull a rabbit out of a hat.

[@KeithStrang]

Really appreciate you taking the time to make this type of vid. I'd be interested to hear what your lawyer says about filing a patent to protect against future patent trolls (someone patenting the idea you're executing on and taking you to the cleaners).

[@tnthomas1954]

As a 30+ year patent/trademark/copyright lawyer, it was refreshing to see a real patent lawyer address these questions and correct some common misconceptions. Two things that may not have been emphasized enough, IMO, are: 1) The ability to enforce patent rights is largely dependent on the value of the patent; and 2) the ability to protect with trade secret law depends largely on the ability to keep the technology secret after commercialization. For #1, if the technology does not have a commercial value in excess of $1M, it is unlikely that it would make sense to enforce through actual litigation. You will still be able to enforce against innocent infringers who just didn't know, but the option to sue someone who is knowingly trying to cheat is limited. For #2, trade secrets are a valid option when you can commercialize the technology without competitors being able to reverse engineer it. But if the technology can be reverse engineered as soon as the product hits the market, the value of trade secret protection is essentially zero. Another comment, the $20K (or so) cost to obtain and maintain a patent is chicken feed in the world of products with value. Maybe I'll want to enforce it, maybe I won't, but it's at least a bargaining chip and may keep some competitors at bay. I've seen clients decide not to pursue patent protection for "trivial" improvements that they thought were likely not patentable and of limited value, only to have a competitor file for a patent on that same technology and end up costing the client 10x the cost of a patent to defend against the competitor's assertion of infringement. Do that a couple of times and the economics of whether to pursue patent protection can start to look different. Great video. Not a big fan of the clickbait and somewhat deceptive (IMO) title. It seems to suggest that people should not get patents, and while that is true in some/many cases, it is certainly not true is many other cases. Like when the technology cannot be kept a secret and has real commercial value.

[@somethingoranother9438]

I can definitely see what you're saying, the trade secrets only work in certain situations, and what you describe in the second paragraph is the situation that I fear. Which makes me think, for that reason above all, I should just go ahead and pursue a patent. If I can protect myself from being able to be made to stop, then I can come to terms with the other risks, which I may not necessarily be able to (or see worthwhile to) enforce...seeing tweaked versions pop up, seeing Chinese copies pop up, etc. As long as I can still do what I'm doing, that's what matters most to me. Is this a reasonable thought pattern to have?

[@georgehugo561]

This was a very helpful comment. Thank you

[@mshepard2264]

20k isn’t nothing when its that or making payroll. (im about to let a bunch of preliminary patends expire)

[@tnthomas1954]

@@mshepard2264 $20K is not a significant expense if it gets you a patent with significant commercial value. But you’re correct - to small businesses without the ability to generate short-term revenue, it can be significant indeed. It’s a cash-flow issue, which can be a killer for small businesses.

[@ThomasPoppell]

This reminds me of the Wright brothers. Once they flew, they were in court and spending their new wealth fighting other inventors on patent rights. Same as the guy who invented TV. RCA steam roller over him, he didn’t have the resources to defend his patent in court.

[@wally1957]

I would like to tell you about how the USPTO has ripped me off. I filed electronically for a patent on Aug 22, 2018 and a week later I get a letter from USPTO stating that I had "MISSING PARTS". I was apparently missing the ADS or application data sheet which is part of the initial USPTO EFS WEB application process and is mandatory to proceed to each step of the application process before hitting the final submit button. So how could the ADS form be missing? Second, the Declaration of Oath document was missing and upon talking with USPTO they said I did not sign my name properly with a forward slash mark at the beginning and end of my name which would denote it as an electronic signature. Seriously TWO FORWARD SLASHES? How am I suppose to know this? USPTO could not tell me what happened to the original ADS and they told me to fill out and send document AiA-08 and disregard ADS form AiA-014 as it was too long (8 pages) and send AIA-08 instead. A week later I receive another letter stating that I was still missing the same identical parts to the application plus I was missing a $80.00 surcharge fee. Penalty Really? Supposedly they charge surcharge fees when they consider anything missing, late or is paper delivered through the mail. How can they charge me a penalty for something that is missing from their data system and not my error? Well I was not going to have any of this and I was certainly not going to send them another $80.00 so I sent multiple forms to two different USPTO departments on 10-01-18 requesting abandonment of application and request for refund $480.00 along with a lengthy letter describing why and what happened in my case. I sent the abandonment form so that I could request the refund which makes sense right. I receive a letter from USPTO on 10-9 stating that they received my request for refund and to wait at least 30 days for a response. Meanwhile they take another $80.00 SURCHARGE FEE directly out of my bank account on 10-15 without permission. I called USPTO today 10-25 and they stated my refund request was dismissed!!! That meant I would not get any of my money back. Unbelievable! I was told to call Teresa Williams and was told by this person that since I abandoned the application I was not due a refund. I told Williams I abandoned the application so that I could get the refund. The USPTO also had their data base down for almost a week just prior to submitting my main patent application so I informed Williams that this may be the reason the ADS form was missing. I am told by Williams that he will call me next week after he speaks to a supervisor about this matter. I tried to make this comment as brief as possible but there is much more to this and the frustration is unbearable. I have spoken with 15-20 people since Aug 22 and nothing is ever clear. This has to be one of the biggest scams ever. The USPTO is not user friendly, they don't care about the little guy and especially one without an attorney. Obviously they are out for the money and don't give a damn about anything else. They speak as if everything is a matter of fact and that is the way it is with no explanation as to why. The patent game is for the rich period. If your poor and try to submit an application on your own as I did then good luck because I can't even get past submitting the application and they already have $560.00 to keep as they wish even if it's their error. I say USPTO is a SCAM! I will try and post an update after Williams contacts me next week.

[@gonzooznog8986]

Did you file a provisional Patent Application? I did and My attorney dropped me on the basis of A comflict of interest for he had a product similar to mine After 2 years of paying a retainer feed $ 2000.

[@wally1957]

@@gonzooznog8986 Well you should of got your retainer fee back since the lawyer dropped it due to conflict of interest.

[@wally1957]

So what I did was call my bank and disputed the charges. The bank refunded my money after USPTO did not respond to the dispute.

[@johnborton4522]

Really good, defendable patents cost $50k or so (I'm on several), I've heard it said that even good patents are merely a $50,000 gun which shoots $1,000,000 bullets (because that's what it costs to defend). Unless you can afford to buy the bullets, the gun is near useless.

[@hu5116]

Sorry, but I totally disagree with you! VERY poor advice! First let’s discuss reality. Yes, as an entrepreneur your very best defense against being copied is to vigorously take over the market and dominate it so it presents a high barrier to entry by competitors. But that too is going to take money, and if you have no follow on protection, then you risk that investment being lost by someone competing against you with a larger purse. Note, that is ALWAYS the case, that there will always be a gorilla out there ready to pounce on you and chew you up. That is why you need everything possible working for you and that includes a patent. The next thing though is that you never want to get to the point of having to litigate a patent. If you do, you have screwed up. Having a patent and advertising your products as patent pending or patented will dissuade many would be competitors from even starting to compete with you. But stay coy, keeping your company stealthy against prying eyes, so that they don’t know how big or small you are. They will not want to infringe if they think you might have some big bucks investors behind you. But the patent will let you play that game. Finally, your patent should not cost $10,000. If it does, then you are doing something wrong (unless you are prosecuting the iPhone patent). First, go search google patents and make sure your invention does not already exist. Then, learn how to write patents yourself. You should really do this regardless, because no one will be able to describe your invention better than you. There are plenty of books and resources on how to write a patent. But don’t focus on the adminstrivia of the paperwork (you will hire that out). Learn the overall structure of patents (from the books and resources), and learn power point well enough to draw good looking figures. I usually draw my figures first. Then I number the parts of the figures leaving gaps in the numbers to insert others later. Figure 1 will use the 100s, figure 2 the 200s, etc., usually with skipping 10 or 5 between sequential number labels. Then you start describing the numbered items in figure 1, then figure 2 etc. Finally write the claims you want for the invention. To get in the mood, find and read a number of patents in your field and try to write in the same style. There is a certain style I call patentese that you try to follow, but don’t fret on it, experience will get you there eventually. You want to get your drawings, the verbiage describing the drawings, and the draft claims, and then find you NOT a patent lawyer (who will charge you tens of thousands of dollars), but a Patent Agent. These are often people who are prior patent examines, or retired patent lawyers, etc. and my experience is that they sometimes know more than patent lawyers . if your find a good one, he/she should charge you no more than a couple hundred dollars an hour, and if you did your homework as described above, they should be able to edit your work into a fully viable patent in a few hours. The patent office is going to charge a few hundred filing fee, and my agent rarely charges me more than two or three times that to have cleaned up my draft and submit it. You can save more money filing it yourself, but it’s a pain to deal with the USPTO system if you don’t do it every day, so let them do it as you have better things to do. There may be more costs down the road depending on how things go, but I have gotten solid patents for as little as a couple thousand dollars total. Every case is different, but don’t take this video’s advice Carter blanch, because although they do make some ok points, and getting a patent is indeed not a panacea, it is completely untrue that you should not even consider one. Just be smart about getting it and use it effectively to stave off competition so you don’t ever even have to go to court.

[@crispychicken2743]

I guess it's better to market and manufacture full steam . Make the money and get out fast . Move on to the next project and do it again and again. Then seek everything and retire. Good advice! Thank you

[@visarma9673]

Wrong…. Sell it or license your platform.. get a PCT. I just finally after 6 years received a Chinese patent “today”. I vote for the guy on the left. If your innovation is truly Novel..(?). Get a design patent and a non-provisional.

[@UnderTheSameSun693]

Okay... So, patents are only good for big corporations. That lawyer basically just confirmed that. Thats why he kept using big corporations in his example. So... The take away from this video is that Patents are more trouble than theyre worth, if youre a small inventor. If you are a small inventor, the only person benefiting from that Patent is aomeone like this amazing Salesman in the video. The Lawyer.

[@JohnSL]

Nice video, John. I also obtained a patent for a mechanical design that I was having made. What I didn't know is that you have to make additional payments to the patent office in order to keep the patent after it's been issued. I was very happy that I was able to keep the "total" cost of obtaining the patent at $15K (10 years ago). That is, until I found out that I had to pay the patent office every now and then to maintain the patent.

[@robertqueberg4612]

A patent is only a license to sue.

[@sethw9979]

You say to 'crush it on execution without a patent.' What, then, protects you from being hit with a cease and desist, or even sued for royalties, for violating a patent issued to some passer by that realized you hadn't protected your IP?

[@matspatpc]

Not a lawyer, but work in a company where patents are an important part of the business, and have been trained on patents every couple of years since I joined 6 years ago. So take this as it's written with a pinch of salt and pepper, but: If you can show that you already have invented the widget, and made it public, BEFORE the other company patented it, their patent is still invalid. It is called "prior art" (it existed before the patent application). This ONLY fails if you have not put it on the market or have published the workings of the widget before the other company made the patent application. You do not need a patent to claim prior art, just some reasonable published records. One of the tasks of a patent lawyer and/or the patent office is to search for "prior art" so that they don't file patents that aren't going to be valid. This is also why some patent applications are very detailed, and others more general. In the typical case, the detailed one is describing how it is different from something else that is patented in a more generic way. I think what John says is that: If you make the BEST widget, at a reasonable price, get it to market before your competitor, you ONLY need a patent to stop the other guy from making the same thing. For MANY products, there's little reason to expect anyone else is going to make the same thing, even if you can sell lots of them. Marketing, making the thing well, and selling a good quality product is more important than a patent in running a business - in most cases at least. Particularly for a small company, that can't really afford to spend $$$$$$$ on defending the patent in court. If patent was the only thing making a company great, then none of your well known brand companies such as Starrett, Snap-On, Sandvik, Harley-Davidsson and Honda, etc would remain in business. They don't make things with patents (they do invent new things and use patents to prevent their competitors from doing the same thing for a while, sure, but most of their products are way more than 15 years since they were first invented), they make good products that people are willing to pay more for, than the cheap copies from China (Yes, they MAKE things in China too, because that way, we get lower cost versions of those things) Sorry if that turned into a bit of an essay!

[@Rx7man]

@@matspatpc I think this could be somewhat analogous to "Crescent wrenches" and "Vise grips" Though they probably did have patents at the time, they made something unique and branded that people sought out those brands for those kinds of tools rather than "Adjustable wrenches" and "Locking pliers"... They made a product that was really darned good right from the start and that locked the market to their branded version of the tool.

[@thekekronomicon590]

@@matspatpc unrelated but this guy I work with only buy snap on aka strap on tools and we call him strap on man and he gets pissed

[@Maisonier]

Year 2021: There is any way to have open patents? there is any legal resource to have as a new open standard protected by the international laws?

[@IEDAeconomics]

No you just renew the patent before it expires. You won't ever have to lose ownership to your idea.

[@gamingSlasher]

The patents has totally degraded due to lawyers. It is nothing what normal people think it is or work how you think is should. Patent trolls anyone?

[@EcoMouseChannel]

Filing a patent is the quickest way to get it copied.

[@troyhetherington6744]

Thank you for posting this. Very well done - nice broad coverage of the types of intellectual property with specific information on what each is, the costs and time to implement and implications for enforcement. Haven't seen anything covering this much info so well in such a short amount of time in an easy to understand and entertaining format. Great job!

[@turbocobra]

A great discussion!

[@crocellian2972]

Ramsey Customs - turbocobra - Almost good discussion. It just left out the key point - delusional "inventors" with no idea of market value. I am guessing our CNC man is one.

[@TheDSP1970]

BULL CRAP, I have a patent, cost me less than $7500 cause I have the engineering skills to do the 1st part my self. Also I have spent the $$ to defend it. Large industry won't even look at yer idea w/ out the patent. you speak out of practical inexperience in engineering & industrial trades. I speak out practical experance in this arena. My comet ion would have gutted me unless I had a patent.

[@jason145]

Thank you! Sound words

[@nicolashrv]

Just by saying you paid only $7500 you are putting your credibility on the edge............and the patent verification is the problem, because the verification is done by A PERSON, not a machine. Means if he thinks that functionality is not original, he will reject it no matter what. You can have the verification done by a moron, and he will not understand what you did, and will reject it (or grant it....works on both ways).

[@damianalaniz1118]

I have a great idea and I need help. Do you think you can help?

[@WildmanTech]

I'm with you John. Get in, get your money, then get out. Trademark is worth it though, because there may be many toilet lifting tools, but there's only one "Crapperjack!"

[@occamssawzall3486]

We hold hundreds of patents and license it out. Most of them are technology patents. So we don't patent the actual item. We patent the technology that goes into them. Our Segway/iBot gyros are patented for instance and licensed it out. We do the R&D and license it to large corporations.

[@argentorangeok6224]

Occams Sawzall Love your handle. I was so disappointed in the societal reaction to the Segway. Everyone was like "Oh. A scooter." and I was like "We'll have bipedal motion control in no time!"

[@occamssawzall3486]

ArgentOrangeOK Truth told. The Segway was just a fun side project at the time. Was never really meant for it to take off as a huge thing. Mostly just a test rig for the gyros and stability controls. If you wanna see bipedal robotics systems look up Boston Dynamics. Probably some of the best rigs out there right now.

[@AMetalWorks]

Occams Sawzall, that in itself is the nature of your business. You are not trying to sell these products. Your product is the design.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Alvarez Metal Works Our product is the technology. Which other companies use to make products. So yes. We do "just design" but it's a bit more than that. As cheesy as it sounds, we sell solutions. Sometimes we come up with things no one has an immediate use for, but we patent it anyway because 3-5 years from now it may be a multi-million $ solution to a problem. It's always a gamble, but they're pretty calculated gambles.

[@AMetalWorks]

Occams Sawzall again that is your product and the nature of your business. He's talking about people that come up with an product that they want to build and sell. You do not do that. I understand what you do as I'm sure everyone else does too. We get it. However he's not talking about you or others like you.

[@BigMjolnir]

Your $10k and 2 year time to issue figures are pretty optimistic, especially for any patent worth having. If you want a very narrow patent with limited claims, I.e, something for bragging rights and to hang on the wall, those might be accurate enough. If you want something that is broader and may protect against minor mod copycats and offer the possibility for continuations to make a patent family, you are probably looking at $25k to $50k and 3-5 years...especially if it's a crowded space with lots of prior art. If you go international it depends greatly on which countries you pick, but you should count on $80k plus. There are cases where patents make sense, and cases where they don't. You listed some good reasons not to get one, but it really depends on what the invention involves, what the market potential is, etc. There are lots of situations where they still make sense but it's important to know the difference and why you want one. Good video, that will probably help a bunch of folks avoid needless costs, or to protect valuable IP...probably both. -- Mike I'm not a lawyer, but I spent several years helping folks get patents, so I'm fairly familiar with the process, costs, and various reasons to get one or to skip it.

[@edwardquintanilla8789]

Hey Mike, I'm seeking patent advise. Anyway I can ask you some questions?

[@enginebill]

I agree with you. I got a patent 25 years ago and had no means to make the product and was not able to maintain the patent and I could not get anyone to buy the idea so I wasted about $6000. Had I talked to this guy then I might not have gotten one. About 10 years ago I saw a tool very similar to what I designed being used on the show How Its Made.

[@TraditionalToolworks]

The patent system works completely against open source, so your comment below about still being able to do open source is odd...mainly the way the system works is to use in negotiations when a company comes at you. I agree it's hard to financially make sense, but keep in mind that many corporations have departments of patent trolls that do nothing but go after people that are violating their patents. In the case you have some patents it seems the corporation tries to get the rights to your patents in return to having the rights to use theirs. You need to have patents in order to negotiate. No matter what, patents are destroying creativity, since they make it impossible to create products of similar functionality, which seems to happen indirectly. Patents are evil, IMO. Large corporations pay their employees a lot of money to file patents for the company, and this is especially true for software. Lastly, as you point out, U.S. patents don't hold water in other countries. I know in Asia during the 80s, Taiwan could file a patent in their country and prevent the creator from doing that at all. Things have gotten better, but China still violates patents with products they copy all the time. It's a real mess.

[@snakedike]

I'm a design engineer and have been generating patents for my customers or employers for years. In one interesting case I came up with a critical solution to a problem that threatened a $30M development project. We applied for a patent but it was rejected because a competitor had designed something virtually identical and patented it first. However I noted that the function of the feature as listed in their patent, while also a benefit, was different than the primary reason we designed it. I asked the lawyer to resubmit the patent on these grounds and it was awarded. But there are reasons to patent, just ask the Robert Kearns regarding intermittent wipers.

[@markplain2555]

Great discussion. . In the case of a patent infringement by a 'small' competitor you can get them to stop their infringement by the threat of legal action alone. In my example (a Trademark) I found a few companies infringing on my trademark. I contacted the companies and directed them to the Government site showing my registration and gave them a written order to stop. They don't know how deep my pockets are, but they realise that they stand to lose a lot of money if they continue (legal fees alone). So they stopped. The patent/trademark can simply be a deterrent and I'm grateful to our legal system for it. . As for my deepest company production secrets, I don't patent those ideas (as you said the recipe is made public); I can't police the inside process of a competitor's factory (I would need a court order to start). I have my staff sign non-disclose agreements (and employment restrictions) and train my staff on what they can and cannot discuss even in their social circles. I keep my production processes as an intellectual property secret. . As it turns out, a patent would be handy as banks do favor you if you have a patent (discussed in minute 25). . As a word to everyone - listen carefully to the lawyer (minute 20). Please don't get mistaken between copyright and trademark (I often hear misunderstandings on this topic). Also remember that it costs good money to file a copyright/trademark/patent, thus 'first to file', may not be easy. Some people want to make money from the product first so that they can file a patent later.... but there is a 1 year limit (life is not easy).

[@pobparat8082]

Thanks for sharing

[@nraynaud]

On a tangential note, there also exists the Ⓜ (letter M in a circle), for "Integrated circuit layout design protection", you probably only encounter it when you play with strong fuming nitric acid and a microscope. It's for asserting the rights to a chip design in the electronics industry.

[@harrelsontrumpets]

The reality is that patents ARE very useful and worth defending when they protect a very popular product. I have not patented anything even though I have invented, manufactured and sold dozens of unique and useful inventions that make up the majority of my production today. Will I get a patent in the future? Most likely YES because some of my ideas could very well become millions of products that all of you eventually purchase.

[@HowToHomeLife]

I've been an inventor, designer, manufacturer, and marketer of hundreds of professional technical tools for more than 50-years and have never applied for a patent on a single one! In the 80's I read an article from a fellow inventor stating the following: patents provide zero protection, they provide only one thing, the precedent to sue an infringer in a court of law. If you do not have the sizeable money to pay an attorney to bring this lawsuit to court, attorneys will rarely if ever, take a patent infringement case on contingency, unless it provides multiple millions of dollars for the attorney. In addition, if you do not bring suit against every infringer on your patent, you will lose the ability to bring suit after only one year! This is why I've never applied for a patent, I simply marketed my products with a money back guarantee of utility, and at a reasonable price for the marketplace. David Riddle

[@cthree87]

I'm with you John, I'd rather spend my time looking forward and executing than playing defence. I've seen a lot of good companies fall flat by taking their eye off the ball. Ideally you'll want to do both but there are a lot of factors to consider.

[@DavyMcKay]

I agree with that philosophy.

[@tonyvancampen-noaafederal2640]

The Wright brothers completely stopped development and improvement of their flying machine, due to the amount of time that they lost defending against Glenn Curtis' infringement of their patent. The funniest part of the whole thing was that the Curtis and Wright companies eventually merged. In addition, Glenn Curtis spent an amazing amount of time working on S. P. Langley's aerodrome to disprove the Wright Patents.

[@TubTakesDub]

6 years later…still an amazing video! Not only giving your side but bringing a professional to rebuttal! Excellent👏🏼

[@mitchsalawine5420]

" Yep...yep...uhuh..yep...I got it ..uhuh... yep...interesting...yep..got it..yep" for a guy who is a bit shady for lawyers, he seems to have the skills and qualifications to become one...

[@joefriday1982]

Risky video, but practical. I appreciate both perspectives. thanks for sharing, John!

[@pauldominic2150]

You can submit a 'design' patent yourself for only a few hundred dollars. Of course, it doesn't have the same protection as a utility patent, but if your patent is mainly based on the 'ornamental appearance', then it's a fantastic option. Then you can use the term 'patented' on your product. That perceived increase in value to your product is worth it the measly few hundred dollars!!! The book _Patent It Yourself_ is the 'bible' in the industry.

[@raymondwoods7922]

Thanks John!! This was very informative about the Patent process. Tell Tye , great job!!

[@mykromisfit]

I think the patent laws and the way the system is set up was a great thing back in the day. Way back, when it was relevant, sometime before I was born. Like many laws that aren’t practical today it needs to be updated, possibly even done away with and an entirely new system put in place that is more relevant in today’s world, then again the patent system never was for the average guy, it certainly didn’t help Philo Farnsworth. A LOT of people don’t understand the difference between a patent, trademark, and copywrites. I would greatly enjoy a video on trademark laws and their practical implications, as well as Your (John Saunders) opinion as well as a professionals. I recently had a product blatantly ripped off, I knew that would happen eventually, and I’m ok with a little competition... but the guy goes as far as calling his product the same name as My product, which I have spent 4+yrs marketing, building the brand, and making it a household name (in the small niche market and circles I travel) which is practically synonymous with my business name. Others have made similar products but always used their own unique name. Your 100% right though, just kill it in the marketing dept and keep making good parts, the offshore guys are going to do what they want regaurdless, it’s a real shame when it’s a fellow entrepreneur here in the states that doesn’t have the decency to stay off your toes.

[@HitAndRunJusticecom]

Hmmmmmmm………!! Great information but, Did anyone else had issues with the volume?

[@zamboanga1]

Very informative. At 23:14 the attorney points out that if you want to pursue getting a patent, the clock starts when you first publicly disclose your invention, offer it for sale or sell it, put it on Instagram, etc., and you then have a year to file your application. I am unclear, does that means you have a year to file a Provisional Patent Application? Or, does that mean you must file for the Utility Patent itself within that one year. I am currently preparing a Provisional Patent Application for an invention that I began selling 7 months ago. So, will I have 12 months to file for a Utility Patent or 5 months? ...Thanks

[@peterryseck]

why would it take >2 years to get a utility patent when a provisional only lasts a year?

[@kentvandervelden]

A provisional patent is not examined or published and there's little requirement on the content. It's quick to get a provisional patent while you continue to develop the idea, before going after the utility patent.

[@peterryseck]

Kent VanderVelden well sure, that I understand. but if you file a provisional and you have it for a year, then how are you supposed to get a full utility within the one year of protection by the provisional, if the full utility takes 2 years to get?

[@YodaWhat]

+Frugal Duel You misunderstand the timelines involved. As it was explained to me: The Provisional is a bit like the obsolete 'first to invent' system, in that it gives you a 'placeholder' in line in case some other comes up with a similar thing at a similar time. Expiration of a Provisional does not prevent you filing again later, even much later. How long it takes to _be granted_ a patent is not at issue on this point. Still it's best to have your ducks pretty well in line before getting too formal.

[@kentvandervelden]

I'm not sure I follow your question, but maybe the following will help. One could file a provisional to get a date on the idea. Then, within a year of filing the provisional, begin the process of converting the provisional to a utility patent claiming the date of the provisional. The duration between when you begin a patent and it's issuance, if ever, is not certain to be two years. Do your own research. A sound IP strategy is important to business and attorneys on your side are huge assets.

[@josefrefuses2go694]

Greaat Information for those of us who aren't familiar with patent law... but it is really soooo much more complex than this thanks for the information and going thru the difficulties and efforts to do these interviews etc john

[@1musicsearcher]

That was very interesting. Thanks. I guess I need to take the "Golden Arches" off the trash cans I sell at the flea market.

[@jaxxbrat2634]

Patents are intended to expose knowledge to industry..protection is an elusion..

[@thewayofthemasseuse2697]

Perhaps its more than an illusion and much like a negative... As sharing is positive.

[@johnathanball3344]

Spot on, as a patent holder, I say “DONT GET ONE”. Literally listen to the smooth talker, NOT. Be the market leader and market your product. Trade mark it.

[@Natural-Causes]

I invented a product and it had the name armor in it and under armour “spelled different” sued me. There attorney called me and said they loved my logo design and name and they didn’t want to compete with it on a clothing line. Basically I was young and feel I got hamstrung by them. He flat out told me they had millions and they would tie me up in lawsuits constantly if I didn’t agree not to put the logo on clothing.

[@RockbarCycling-qk1ju]

That is how the big companies work. Note that chinese knockoff products will do that by changing the spelling of a word that sounds similar. If in court the lawyers can assert the general public would still associate the fake product with, then that is infringement. Keep in mind that if the brand name becomes a generic word, like Kleenex and elevator, the right to enforce gets difficult.

[@scottwhittle6319]

Appreciate your passion, but you are way way off....You forgot about competitive differentiation. Use it as a marketing tool. Also, when you build a portfolio then the group of patents can be valuable vs. just one. Nothing better to tell a customer why you are better than then next guy...doesn't matter what it is... you have something they don't. Also, if you start making money or encroaching on market share *THEY* will come and try to take it. Not just investors either... it is a valuable into your company. plus you can "pay" yourself for assignment and expense it out the company without any matching! (reference: I have 6 patents in technology and avg'd about $13K each)

[@cuzzman01]

Utility patents don't cost anywhere near that much if you do it your self.

[@idiotsgarage1668]

Do you know how to do it? I’m looking into getting a utility patent and can use some direction.

[@JDPorter180]

Thank you so much for this type of video! I kinda have a hard time finding good honest information anywhere about patents and if I should pursue one. This is a very valuable video to me because I learned much from it. Me being an inventor who is trying to get atleast one of my finished ideas into the business world, this video really gave me some much needed insight. I tried to pursue a patent before on one of my inventions, I filed the paperwork sent it in and only got it to patent pending status, but i was totally lost on what to do afterwards because i thought i need to file patents in other countries as well cause i learned that patents only cover the region they are filed in and i learned other stuff too that overwhelmed me due to the fact I didn't know what i was doing. I vowed next time i would just keep it simple and focus on starting a business and securing funding which brings me to a question if you can answer it, 24:35 in some situations i think i would need to tell some people about my invention especially when presenting my business plan and the product my business would sell. The question i want to ask is are non-disclosure agreements necessary If you don't plan on filing a patent?

[@allenklingsporn6993]

That depends on the content of your patent and what kind of "inventor" you are. Ideally, you shouldn't need to present your intellectual property to secure funding, and if you do need to, if you are presenting to a possible manufacturer, then you need to have a patent or a non-compete agreement. A non-disclosure agreement doesn't stop anyone from manufacturing whatever you told them, full stop. As soon as your secret leaves your head, it is market-viable. Without a patent, you'll need several agreements (or a very well-defined single agreement) that give you a legal route to pursue, should those financiers decide to break their end of the agreement (s). Again, though, you have to have funds available to go after these lawsuits and the cost is relative to how well or how poorly you crafted those agreements (get a lawyer). I work under probably 1000+ NDA's every single day, and I could easily take that knowledge and turn a profit, if I determine that any one of those organizations didn't have the financial guts to come after me. It is a risk assessment that I would make should I want to do so. Most of those organizations have revenues in the hundreds of millions of dollars, so I tend to keep that information to myself all of the time. However, if it was little Joe blow you with limited knowledge of the law or your rights and limited funds to hire a competent legal advisor, there is certainly a business case that could be justified. If your think you truly have a winner of an idea, then spend the money to get a patent filed. You have much broader protections than with agreements.

[@tyjack007]

Great info. Thanks

[@magicrockman1]

the guy on the right ruined probably one of the best interviews ever had about this niche subject with. got it yup hmm yup, insert dumb comment, got it. got it, yup yup hmmm. like he's worried about his own image of knowledge and can't just be a good listener. so we on this side of the screen can hear. almost edited the video to clip you out sheesh.

[@hulaganz]

You completely skipped provisional patenting!

[@nicolashrv]

because is less $$ for the greedy lawyer

[@JohnDoe-cf8jz]

This video might be four years old but very relevant today for me. I've worked on a new product for just over the last two years and it's finally finished, I was thinking to patent it (and I already know it's totally unique and novel) but the reality is I'm an idea man. a visionary and an entrepreneur so why do I need a patent? I have and can continue to create so many things, I don't really need protection for this one thing. If I thought this new product could easily be turned around and sold to a large company for royalties etc... sure, then it would be a good idea, but this thing isn't going to be that big of a item. Having said that, one thing I did take from this conversation is the idea of making sure to put a registered trade mark physically on my products, that seems like a very good idea.

[@KenMMark]

I submitted a pro se patent application a few years before the law changed from "first to invent" to "first to file." After waiting two years, the response arrived. The examiner gave me 90 days to make several changes. I opted to abandon it. It seems best to be sure there is a large enough market to ensure economies of scale before pursuing the patent. The provisional patent application makes this possible without fear of losing the IP as a result of market research.

[@FamilyManMoving]

Patents are eminently useful (I have several). But...if your only concern is documentation of your idea, there are much cheaper ways of getting this prior art into the record than a full utility patent. And no - a "idea notebook" or whatever schemes relate to them is not going to work. It is dumb, and anyone who suggests it will help you is stupid. Harsh words that are true. The primary use of a patent - for many - is the defensibility of what you have already made. If you have a patent, then you have a tangible (not absolute) claim that you are not stealing from someone else. You can prove that you have prior art, in the sense that if someone else later claims you "stole" their idea, you can show that you did not. If you have no intention of filing a full utility patent but want to document the idea, you can file a provisional patent application for about $250. It is not reviewed by the USPTO unless (and until) you file a full application. The upside here is that the paperwork has been filed and noted by the USPTO. Unless an application is filed, it is now considered "prior art" and you abandon all rights to the patent. At the same time, others cannot claim you never had the idea. It's filed right there for all to see. Provisional applications are not much more than documentation. They have no force of law other than demonstrating (through USPTO records) that you made X on date Y. But that documentation is admissible in court, unlike those "makers notebooks" and whatever registered mail schemes people contrive. Also, once it lapses into "prior art" anyone can use it and nobody can claim a patents against it. This process is frequently used by open source developers who file a provisional to make it harder for someone to later mine their work for patents down the road (this happens, a lot). I have several full utility patents and find them useful. I have also let provisional lapse. The risk of suit is enough for most people to steer clear without me even saying a thing. But my products more than cover the costs of a full patent. YMMV.

[@jayarj7582]

Important information!! 👍

[@GodGivesGraceToTheHumble494]

WOW. I've come to the conclusion that I will do a "POOR MAN'S COPY". Create an 3D Print Image of it, take a picture & or video with it and its Logo, then email the image/video to myself or mail a packaged copy to myself, or perhaps put it in a safe storage unit or all three. :-D Even if in the future someone say, "Hay you stole my idea", you can always prove the real ownership of it by its dates. Then move forward with God's Grace and help in your time of need. May the Lord Jesus Christ protect and govern everyone's good ideas and dreams that will make a great impact in someones life.

[@edgemererd2201]

Did he mention the "poor mans trademark"? I may have missed it.. Anyways, I was told by an instructor during an IP class that simply printing your logo or any item with a "TM", signing and dating said item, then mailing it to yourself is great protection. Make sure not to open the envelope. Just stash it away in a safe place. If the time ever comes that you need to defend it, the courts will accept this as evidence of "first in use".

[@gonzooznog8986]

Poor man'$ patent is Past due done with it, 2014 or 2016 is no longer valid

[@anyariv]

it's not just about having the means to defend it. It's about deterring potential small-time thieves. It's like if you wear suit, people are more likely to think you're successful even if you're a bum, and they end up treating you accordingly. Having said that, everything you mentioned is 100% true.

[@Warmachinellc15]

I pursued getting a utility patent but not so much to protect from being ripped off but more because I found larger companies that may want to carry your product are far less interested in it if it's not patented. They don't want to be ripped off either. Also I found other production shops are not as interested in making it for you in the event you have to outsource the manufacturing if it's not patented. Again, they are not interested in being scooped by other shops.

[@cnckeith]

good discussion..but don't forget about the evil patent trolls, one of the only ways to protect yourself from them is to have a patent yourself and use that patent as a trading chip or leverage to stop them from going after you on another patent that they own. if you don't get a patent, the trolls will patent your idea and sue you for infringement on "their" patent. getting a patent protects your from the trolls.

[@ehkerr]

They cannot sue you for infringement because you can prove origination, and thereby own a common law patent. Even so, you cannot stop them from producing the patented product.

[@occamssawzall3486]

The when to or not to patent something really varies based on the the product, type of patent and your intentions for it. I don't think it's a bad idea for someone starting out to patent something with the intention to license it out. It can serve as a solid, steady base of income to fund other things. If your business is to constantly be making new things every few years a patent is a good idea. Yes it runs out, but the idea is that you'll have something else to make money from long before the first patent runs out. For Coca-cola you're right. It makes no sense. But they are essentially making all their money off a single product till basically the end of time. They don't really have a "next thing". Just a metric ton of the same thing along with branding. That's how they make their money.

[@b3nsb3nz]

I totally agree, trying to patent everything is dumb and a waste of time. But if you really have an idea you believe to original, you owe it to yourself to at least pay for an experienced firm to do a prior art search. If its something that can transcend a single product, licensing is huge and without a patent cannot be done.

[@crocellian2972]

Occams Sawzall - You are also dead on point. The real problem is delusional "inventors" who think they just figured out free energy or something. I actually had dozens of them over 35 years. I never billed them for a single hour. Much to the unhappiness of my managing partners.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Crocellian Well I'm sure plenty of people thought the inventor of the spiralizor (that thing that turns everything into spaghetti) was delusional. Probably is delusional but they're rich as hell delusional 😆

[@BrentLeVasseur]

NYC CNC is a weak mark because it’s purely descriptive, assuming you are in New York City and are in the business of CNC machining. A stronger mark would be something fanciful and memorable. For example Apple for phones/computers. Or Google for search, or Xerox for copying. Which is a better brand, Xerox or NYC Copying? Xerox of course.

[@BlackBallRecords]

Patents and copyrighted things, are nothing more than legalized monopoly. Patents and copyright should be done away with, or monopolies should be allowed, one or the other.

[@tf1977sled]

I agree to a point. If you invent something basic like a new kind of tool. At a working class level i would agree a patent is useless. But if you invented some new form of energy production or something substantial then maybe try to patent it. But this subject opens a huge can of worms esp in the us. Inventing a technology or something big can get you in trouble with people who are going to loose a lot of money from your tech. A patent in that case is the least of your worries. I know a fella who was involved with an electric car when they were new lol. He developed a battery that would allow you to drive coast to coast!, on one charge! When a big car company couldn't convince him to use a smaller battery they bought the company that owned the patents and that he worked for and shelved everything. And he no longer works there. The car was released with a far inferior battery. Better technology existed in every possible thing manufactured today! There are many reasons why we dont see it. But the main one is $$$...

[@shayneoneill1506]

When I was a kid in the early 80s there was a strange old man who lived on his own over the road for me in this rotting old house. I found out later that he was the guy who invented some sort of rocker mechanism thats apparently in all modern washing machines and patented it and licensed it to GE and made millions on it in the 1940s-1950s. Thats millions in 1950s money by the way. Spent the rest of his life trying to come up with more things to patent but never really struck gold again. But he also never had to work another day again, so he just lived in this messed up old mansion over the road from us, on his own. We where kind of scared of him actually, he was pretty wierd.

[@RockbarCycling-qk1ju]

What does his lifestyle have to do with anything? This guy profited from the patent.

[@stepcorngrumbleteats7683]

Very topical and informative. I'm "new school" Open source, and I'll build it for me, for my use, and I'm happy. I have a good friend, loves patents, has 80+ of them, very old school, but I feel that his way of "business" is approaching it's end. Thanks for discussing this.

[@drhender6943]

John, you should be marking both NYC CNC and Saunders Machine Works logos with "TM". You should also talk to your lawyer about marking all of the files (both Fusion 360 files and any gcode) with copyrights and license information. I know you frequently share those files (especially with patreon contributors) at no cost and that's fine, but a copyright and license statement would protect you from misuse of those works. For example, you could attach a license, indicating that non-commercial uses are permitted. That would prevent others from financially benefiting from your work without your consent. A license can also include indemnification clauses, protecting you from liability.

[@LloydDuncan-f5g]

@12:30 Just imagine if you had a patent showing ownership. You could get in touch with eBay and they would remove the knockoff versions from eBay. Additionally, on the subject of someone can just tweak the design and patent that tweak ... if you had a provisional patent starting out, it gives you one year to make those tweaks, adjustments and improvements before you submit your non provisional. That would protect you from someone else stepping in with a tweak improvement. If you are really all in on your product, you should spend that provisional year looking on how to improve your own idea.

[@oldschool1993]

In the old days when most manufacturing was done in the USA, a patent had some value. but with international markets opened up, especially China, a patent for most products has no enforceable value, unless you are a major corporation that can spend a lot of money and also put political pressure on a foreign government. For guys in the small machinery business, the market is so limited in volume that no Chinese company is going to spend money to copy your product- they are looking for mass market items. Therefore your best use of resources is to build a good product at a reasonable price. As an example, a few years back a guy built a PDB for his Tormach machine and tried to sell them on CNCZONE, but his prices were sky high because he was obsessed with a level of quality far above the Tormach machine itself. Needless to say Tormach later introduced a similar device made in their China factory which sold at a relatively low price. Had the original guy been more practical in his approach he could well have established a good business selling his product at a price that he could have been the supplier to Tormach.

[@modfabcom-au9909]

Thanks John, another superb info source. Ty is a very well spoken and knowledgeable guy, props to him for his smooth and understandable explanation of the system.

[@nickp4793]

I have about 10 patents my name is on from when I was working at a Fortune 500 company. They are all a waste of money. They only make money for lawyers (on both sides).

[@CatNolara]

Wouldn't it be better to just keep your invention a secret? Although, if anyone can reverse engineer such a produc (what is often likely) it would be no secret anymore...

[@kenisthistoo7499]

great video

[@BritneySpencer-hl9kq]

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[@rodin4429]

It's an old video, but an interesting little discussion and still quite relevant. I found it useful, if only to confirm some of my thoughts but also just to hear some tidy explanations of details we all know but perhaps not quite. Good video 👍🏻

[@BumblebeeStings]

Wow you guys are completely messing with they’re heads

[@blackopal3138]

Sounds like I can, and perhaps should, copyright my KZbin comments. Is that correct? For example, I may want to be the one known as the first person to copyright their KZbin comments. ... lol, legit question though. I leave little novellas sometimes, it's public. I don't see how it's any different than a science magazine or a published book. I also coin words, and have used them on here. Can you copyright a new word? One I have used often is, 'vessay'. Just like blog and vlog. vessay - an essay presented in video format. Peace *copyrighted by author, - google internet servers, SHAW Communications, 2023

[@Astraeus..]

I just spent 26 minutes watching 2 guys talk about patents and trademarks, despite the fact that I have never invented anything nor am I ever likely to.........meanwhile I get asked on a daily basis why the hell I know stuff that seems so completely rand and/or has nothing to do with me whatsoever :P