Why You Should Play An Echo Knight Fighter | D&D 5e

[@enterthedungeon]

One thing that I really want to stress, but I don't necessary talk about in the video, is how fun the Echo Knight is to play. While Echo Knights are really powerful, the core mechanics of the subclass are a blast to pilot. It is a joy to play and honestly to DM for. Is the Echo Knight the best subclass by far? Yes, but I wouldn't change a thing about it and I think that's the most important thing.

[@DeadpoolAli]

The "ghost lance" build is the most fun character I think I have ever played!

[@lootsgaming4428]

Me and my dm have decided to have a material cost with the echo and for my character it is severed heads and I think it balances it to a reasonable amount

[@outbreakperfected9374]

3:36 Correction: at 3rd level an action surging echo knight makes 4 attacks. Unleash incarnation is once per attack action, so using action surge to take an additional attack action procs unleash incarnation again. You have to use a second charge, but still.

[@tuseroni6085]

omg...if you have a +4 con at 5th level you can make 8 attacks (1 attack, UI , extra attack, UI, action surge first attack, ui, action surge second attack, ui.) this goes up to 11 if you have a +5 con at level 11, the DPR on that is damn near 200 if you use a +1 gun with +1 bullets and you have a +5 to your dex, and you have sharpshooter and archery style, a heavy crossbow would get the same effect if you can't use a gun except +1 heavy crossbow and +1 crossbow bolts. assuming enemy has AC of 13. but at AC of 18 it's still 123 damage... imagine a young red dragon shows up with 178 hp and you just blast it 11 times and drop 123 hit points off it in one round. that dragon is gonna GTFO, assuming the rest of your party doesn't finish it off before it can even get its turn.

[@outbreakperfected9374]

@@tuseroni6085 UI is once per attack *action*, not once per attack. Extra attack increases the number of attacks per attack action, it does not give you additional attack actions. Haste grants you an additional attack action that is limited at only one attack (it doesn't deactivate your extra attack feature for that attack action, it just limits the number of attacks to 1 even if you could normally attack multiple times per attack action); and as UI is part of the attack action per its own wording, it cannot be used to increase the number of attacks you make with the additional attack action granted by haste. While this is the Rules as Written interpretation, many consider UI's attack to be separate from the attack action and allow it to be used with the haste attack action.

[@DeadpoolAli]

I believe this subclass is where martials should be at. twilight/peace/nature clerics, chronogy/divination/blade singer wizards, lore/eloquence bards, hexblade/genie warlocks. all of these are insanely strong and its long time a martial could step up. echo knight made another copy at 18th level? arcane casters using wish for a full simulacrum for double action economy. true polymorph to turn a rock into a young dragon and your friends into adult dragons. when I look at a martials late game abilities I ask "is this really stronger than wish/simulacrum/maze/meteorswarm/prismatic wall/ true polymorph/shapechange or even just basic foresight basic foresight could definitely just be a martial being "in the zone" so they do everything for advantage and everything attacking them has disadvantage, a battlemaster at 17th level should be able to achieve this high level flow state... so here's a bladesinger/hexblade doing martial stuff but better for 8 hours lol. And if we relegated it to just in combat ie 1 min durations 1x per short rest it still just matches stuff like greater invisibility/shadow of moil which can be done by those gish casters at 7th level. The game NEEDS martials like echo knight, bear totem barbarian, and gloomstalker for all the craziness that a (smart player) caster can pull off. love the video tho keep them coming!

[@drb10057]

Straight facts, in the same book there is a subclass that can basically make your whole party invulnerable and invisible to most enemies (Chronurgy w 10th lvl feature combined with Leomund's Tiny Hut).

[@arianall]

Yes but also keep magic items in mind the wizards fireball never gets an additional buff to it through items but a fighters magic item that do an extra d4 fire dmg will be applied to each of their attacks, overall though i absolutely agree with you given most martials need such specific ability scores and need more out of combat fun abilities

[@DahLekKnight]

“Where I fall, ten more shall take my place! And one hundred each of them! So strike me down! I am the harbinger!" -Ollanius Pius, Imperial Echo Knight Guardsman Suddenly, he went from speaking figuratively to speaking literally.

[@1rotzy]

So I'm just gonna tell him. At level 3, you can make 4 attacks with Action Surge since Unleash Incarnation can be used once PER attack action. And it only gets worse as you level up.

[@hiirozero3623]

10 attack at max, and you haven't multiclass yet

[@Dankston]

For the shadow martyr ability, its not you swapping spots with your shadow its sending your echo to take an attack for "another creature that you can see" 6:02

[@enterthedungeon]

Good catch!

[@Dankston]

@@enterthedungeon not that it really makes the subclass any less over the top powerful.

[@Zoe-uz9kn]

Yeah, I was super confused

[@TheTsugnawmi2010]

Who’s gonna tell him about the Ghostlance multi class with the hex blade warlock? 😂

[@enterthedungeon]

I am VERY much aware of this lol. I've had 2 players use it against me. I still get nightmares...

[@SpencerSpice]

Little correction but your thinking forcelance. Ghostlance is with the undead patron utilizing form of dread to lock movement

[@rcschmidt668]

Honorable mention for the high level artillerist with 2 turrets. I have a pretty powerful character where the turrets do damage, and I concentrate on battlefield control.

[@playinzegame]

​@@SpencerSpicewhat is force Lance I can't find it anywhere

[@justbplz]

How does force lance work?

[@anonymousweeb7424]

I really like the echo knight, simple because it is so strong in every direction. Yes other subclasses are strong in there own way, but they all fall short in some regards but the echo knight has next to no flaws and that to me is exciting. Is it potentially too strong? Yes, absolutely, but I've always been in favour of scaling up rather then scaling down. To me, the echo knights where I feel all martial subclasses should be, so as to make up the potential imbalance in a martials ability to affect the world at large. Because while power imbalance might be a myth or blown out of proportion, there is simple no other martial subclass which allows you to affect the fundamentals of the universe like a caster, like the echo knight, which is to me the sticking point in the martial vs caster debate.

[@jimmyneutron2329]

I think all martial classes should have some sort of X factor that lets them keep up with casters. If you play a martial you will ALWAYS be 2nd fiddle to any caster ever.

[@sebastianrojo8952]

My concept for when my current chasacter dies its an echo knight ×gloomstalker. From a noble family the one that couldnt use magic, focuses on fighting, your twin a powerful druid, in some tragic event the twin dies protecting you and some of his essence got into you, the echo is not your clone but the spirt of your twin that latched unto you in an attempt to protect you even after death. The extra abilities you get from ranger eventually are abilities your twin had in life, and the longer his soul remains with you more of his abilities and power youll get. I also saw that the echo was just a portal you created to walk through or punch through, thats also pretty cool

[@colinwalker6804]

When you get around to Ranger and cover Gloomstalker, remember that Gloomstalkers 3rd level ability “Dread Ambusher” will work with an Echo Knight Fighter, allowing for by far the most attacks in a single turn a player can make…till you get a Gloomstalker 3 Samurai 16; which theoretically can do as many or more attacks. If a lot of ranger players leave Gloomstalker by level 3, then assuming you start a level 5 campaign (which isn’t too uncommon), you are one level up away from the balancing disaster of a “Gloomknight/Echostalker”. I’m going to break it down just so anyone can see this madness. At 3rd level Gloomstalker Rangers get the feature “Dread Ambusher”, which will give you a bonus to initiative equal to your wisdom modifier, and states this: “At the start of your first turn of each combat, your walking speed increases by 10 feet, which lasts until the end of that turn. If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon's damage type.” Assuming your level 5, combine it with Action Surge on the first round of combat and you get a free 2nd attack for a potential of 3 attacks with any weapon, not bad for someone without extra attack yet. Then you hit level 6, take Echo Knight, and the “Unleash Incarnation” part says the following: “You can heighten your echo's fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo's position. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.” So now on turn one, if you action surge, you will do a minimum of 6 attacks in one turn (and that’s with me assuming you had to spend a bonus action to summon the echo, otherwise you could get a crossbow expert or Polearm Master attack in too). Then at character level 8 (Ranger 3, Fighter 5) they get extra attack so it becomes 12-13 attacks in one round.

[@enterthedungeon]

Yep, I've DMed for a Gloomstalker Echo Knight before until level 20. By the end of the campaign they were rocking with the Alert feat and GWM too. This multiclass is an absolute TERROR. However, it also means that as a DM, you don't have to hold back :)

[@ShadestheMothman]

Shadow martyr doesn’t teleport you away from danger, only teleports your echo to you. So you’d still be in melee range when you use it

[@egbert5871]

i like how it can give fighters more to do then fighting with the scouting ability's and echo claiming

[@olivierlaborde7887]

also one thing that the scouting gets is that you can swap place with your avatar when its scouting. so if you manage to get into a loot room, you can pop back into normal form, steal all the loot and literally just teleport out

[@btothekfromg5973]

In our Campaign right now we were allowed to rework our characters a bit to compensate the loss of a player. Of course that ment we players tried to keep our core character concepts in tact... so my gloomstalker melee got a few tweeks... and now with 3 level ranger and 5 level echo knight my guy dishes out 8 attacks the first round and doing some nice bonus damage thanks to hunters mark and all attacks with advantage in the dark... my Dm loves and hates the monster I created.😅

[@adamrollins2475]

The biggest issue I have as a DM with the Echo Knight is that it's... really confusing. The Echo counts as an object, but if it counts as an object that means it doesn't need to make saving throws for a lot of spells, but it should have to make those saves due to the nature of its creation. Like, Catapult says it keeps going until it hits a creature, but Echoes aren't creatures, so RAW it shouldn't hit it, even though RAI it should. It's incorporeal, which means it can't interact with much of anything, but it also occupies its space which implies it has some sense of physicality to it. Spiritual Weapon is similar in many respects, except you can stay in the same space as a Spiritual Weapon, as opposed to Echoes which you can't. According to Crawford it counts as an object, but there's so much about it that doesn't act like your typical object that the only way to handle the rules calling is to just put your foot down eventually. It's a very cool subclass, but I've definitely had more headaches about it than any other subclass I've seen.

[@CoreWatch1973]

Great synopsis for this subclass! Yes, it powerful, though I’ll say this, any DM worth a damn who plays any premade adventure by rules as written and who is expecting that adventure to be balanced to a group of 3-6 characters (about the average for most groups I’ve ever played in), well then they are highly misunderstanding the creativeness of any average group of gamers, and that they as DM’s are not themselves also taking advantage of what their greatest strength of being a DM is… simply put… understanding that all you really need to do to challenge the characters is to know what your players action economies are, predict their abilities and movements, and then capitalize on their weaknesses by preparing proper encounters to exploit their weaknesses. By knowing the weaknesses in their parties makeup’s and knowing that they as the DMs are the ones controlling the story, the pace, and the total number of action economies on the field that they can bring to properly counter the party is truly the key to challenging and half way decent group of players. “To beat the devil, you have to be the devil!”, if you want another simple golden rule, then always tell yourself this as both when your the player and also when your the DM, “What’s good for the goose is also good for the gander.” Throw echo knights back at the party sometime, and watch them go crazy! Use the parties abilities against them. Be the better monster that the party needs you to be as the DM, and good at building encounters that can infuriate your party of munchkins! Anyway bud! Great video, keep up the good work! I could go into hundreds of scenarios where the echo knight isn’t the end all to be all, as I’ve played 3 different versions of them thur far as a player myself. But yeah it’s both fun and also infuriating to fight against as a player as well. Cheers! 🍻😎🌴

[@Fierlyt]

I'm planning to play this in a campaign already. The character is a reborn of a character I was playing in a previous campaign that died, but was revived by the god of revenge they faithfully served in their previous life. They died as a monk, but without memory of their training they're now a fighter relying on instinct and muscle memory. The echo flavor ties in with being reborn. They learn to project their true self from the body they were revived in. It seems the god of revenge truly wasn't finished with them yet and has strengthened their soul to the point it can physically manifest, which is also why they need no food or sleep as a reborn. (With a muti-class 1 level in barbarian, sometimes the main body might enter a rage and act on its own while the echo acts as the character would.)

[@cald1421]

Here after Kim chose this for her Nova character in high rollers. What a badass

[@cjon7982]

I've been playing a DEX based dual rapier Sea Elf Echo Knight in Rime of the Frost Maiden for a couple years now. We hit level 9 recently. I've been enjoying every second of it. We used to have a paladin, rogue, fighter, druid, and wizard. Due to life obligations and RP elements the paladin was replaced with barbarian and rogue replaced with bard. The group comp seems better now since the changes. Either way, this subclass is a blast to play.

[@olivierlaborde7887]

Im playing Rime right now and Im thinking of multiclassing fighter and then pushing for echo knight. then I'll be a homebrew monk class (way of entropy) echo knight.

[@gnomesaiyan1680]

The MOST fun I've ever had playing a character was three levels of Echo Knight on a Bladesinger Wizard build. Ping-ponging around the battlefield, melee swinging from Echo's location, while my squishy self was safe and sound at range.

[@lr781]

My echo knight was also a Dhampire (looks like a tiefling) and abused the sentinel feat. the bite’s bad damage made it more balanced, but as a con focused character I just would never die…

[@Alzorath]

honestly, the only stipulation I ever feel the need to put on echo knights is limiting the uses of the bonus action spawn effect per long rest (usually tied to the proficiency bonus) - allows all the fun stuff, but keeps "power gamers" from being tempted to exploit it as much outside of battle. That said, session zeroes are important. And while you can teleport to your shadow - Shadow Martyr only brings your shadow to the creature being attacked, it doesn't move you, and it has to be a targeted attack (so breath weapons, wouldn't work)

[@sarcasticsage984]

I don't think that be a very good idea as the Echo have like only 1 hp. Also even out of combat the echo cant do much. All the echo can do is attack and nothing else. It cant take any other actions.

[@Alzorath]

@@sarcasticsage984 out of combat it could feasibly do anything you can (since it occupies space, as opposed to being ethereal) - and it is the only summon without some form of creation limit. It's also one of the most flexible battle summons in the game... thanks to position transfers, taking attacks, temporary life, bonus attacks w/o action/bonus action use, etc.

[@luminous3558]

@@Alzorath its not a summon. Its an illusory point in space where your body can manifest parts of you like your weapon arm. So I would be really wary of treating it like a summoned creature, its closer to an illusion with some matter to it. If ever the echo does anything it is always the player acting through it.

[@Alzorath]

@@luminous3558 A mysterious and feared frontline warrior of the Kryn Dynasty, the Echo Knight has mastered the art of using dunamis to *** summon the fading shades of unrealized timelines to aid them in battle ***. Surrounded by echoes of their own might, they charge into the fray as a cycling swarm of shadows and strikes. They are summons, albeit of alternate timelines of YOU, rather than extraplanar entities (extraplanar entities being by far the most common summons, though admittedly - there are material plane minions and summons too) What you described was something more akin to Spiritual Weapon or at a stretch Spirit Guardians - which are apparitions of power at a remote location that have a visual aspect, not a distinct targetable entity.

[@Maximilian_Romus]

I love this subclass. Such a simple machanical idea, so much room for player creativity. I dont like any other MM classes or subclasses but the Echo Knight is genius.

[@birubu]

Had a situation with a hyper-fast flying enemy like 100ft or something away and 50ft in the air in near death HP territory. Run 30ft + Dash 30ft + Summon Echo 15ft (diagonal up) + Move Echo 30ft (diagonal up) + 10ft Reach (diagonal up) = 115ft horizontal, 50ft vertical "range" Then Action Surge to make 2 attacks, Unleash Incarnation for +1 attack to confirm the kill Echo then disappears due to bring further than 30ft from player character

[@olivierlaborde7887]

Weak. I have a tabaxi monk fighter multiclass. 55 base run speed atm, but the tabaxi dash is literally insane. double movement for a turn so 110 base movement running speed 220 action dash, 330, step of the wind, Jump in air, action surge attack, attack, attack. use my crusher feat to move them 5 feet, but my DM said that instead of knocking them 5 feet I can instead choose to make them prone, so thats cool, advantage on the rest of the melee attacks. Its really strong but kind of needed to keep up in the party. We have one gunslinger Mind Flayer player with a homebrew Mind Flayer race which is so cool. he can cast levitate at will and detect thoughts at will too. really really fun

[@cs319103]

I have a Archery Fighting Style Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter Echo Knight that throws nets as the main attack action and follows up with the bonus hand crossbow attack with advantage (from net). This combo isn't as efficient as a one man army, but it does allow the rest of my team to take advantage of a netted opponent. Sharpshooter's extended range works for nets too allowing me to throw nets from 15ft away without disadvantage. Flavor points - Rather than a "shadow self" my DM allowed me to use a "shimmer" and I treat my echo as a watery reflection of my sailor themed fighter.

[@jeanettekozue7287]

this is a fighter subclass that can make you feel not that bad compared to spellcasters IN COMBAT. But in non combat situation where you have to fix things that are without combat, it's still lacking because welp all i can do is whack things pretty much. And also it's not *that* broken, like wizards exist. Clerics exist. in a fully optimised party, the echo knight can hold their ground in combat but they arent stronger than your spell casters

[@scrubyt2668]

I'm playing a Changeling Echo Knight/Wild Card Sorcerer Multiclass with Dissociative Identity Disorder and my party loves her. I flavored my Echos as the other personalities manifesting in really. So it's like I'm playing 2 characters at once in real time

[@pauliepizzo8633]

This my personal favorite fighter subclasses you feel like a one man army with this sub and this is why i love fantasy games

[@Dave004]

I love this class, but I feel the later abilities pale in comparison to Manifest Echo. 7th level Echo Avatar sounds useful on paper and it can be, but remember anytime you're using it for scouting and don't want to be noticed, you have a medium sized shadow that looks like a human flying around that will be noticed. So while it can go much farther than a familiar, people will notice a shadow humanoid much more than they'd notice an owl or a rat. So not the best at being stealthy or inconspicuous. 10th level Shadow Martyr is also pretty weak, by 10th level it can protect against 1 attack per short rest and that attack isn't even a guaranteed hit. This means you can use your reaction to protect a Wizard but then if the creature rolls a nat 1, you protected nothing, and if the creature has multi attack then it can still keep going at the Wizard since the Echo only prevents 1 attack whether it hits or misses. It should have at least allowed you to send it against a guaranteed hit, or if not, allowed you to use it Constitution modifier amount of times per short or long rest. 15th level ability is decent, 2d6 plus Con Temp hit points at that level isn't amazing, anyone with Inspiring Leader will give better but at least you can keep replenishing every time your echo dies so pretty decent. 18th level is great but not many are going to get that far. Of course comparing it with some abilities like 7th level Battle Master then I suppose all of them are great lol

[@CanadianCrits]

Think this evaluation/video could've used another once over. Theres been a bit of a misunderstanding about the 10th level feature, which doesnt in fact teleport you away. Also, the 15th level feature onky applies temp hp if you don't already have temp hp, unlike other temp hp sources, which can lead to much wasted hp. I've also found the 18th level feature to be not that great. You can threaten more spaces, but without extra reactions, thats not much. And splitting up your attacks is mechanically horrible. All in all its a STRONG subclass, but not THAT strong. Ps. Take the Sentinel feat. 😈

[@Iceheart86]

How about being a Plasmoid Echo Knight? You could flavour the echo as you just splitting and becoming two, like cells do.

[@GooseEnjoyer]

Honestly its about time martilas got some good stuff. Matt mercer has created both the echo knight which is much closer to being on par with spellcasters and the bloodhunter, which is quite strong. It's about time we got strong martials.

[@sarcasticsage984]

To be honest you can make 4 attcaks at level 3. As unleash incarnation says when you take an attack action. So take attack action do 1 attack, do unleash incarnation and then do action surge take another attack action and then unleash incarnation again flr total of 4 attacks

[@brandoncreek5709]

I love the flavor of an ancestral guardian/echo knight. Tank and spank!

[@NomNom1970]

There is a multiclass warlock / echo knight called a Ghostlance that is so different from any other class. Pack Tactics did a really good video on it.

[@JonnySaysHi413]

For anyone familiar with Dark Souls 2, I've always wanted to play Lucatiel as a Githyanki, whose brother is lost somewhere on the Astral Sea. But he keeps showing up when Lucatiel is in-trouble a la, a summoned phantom in Dark Souls and in this case as the Echo Knight's Manifest Echo.

[@Randoman590]

If you're on the receiving end of an Echo Knight as a DM and need to keep them in check a bit, I would point out a couple of things: * The Echo cannot act independently of its controller, so any lockdown on the Fighter stops both at the same time * The Fighter cannot see through the Echo's eyes except using the Avatar feature, and he won't do that in combat. Which means cutting off line of sight between the two prevents him taking opportunity attacks through the Echo. He can't make an OA against a target he can't see * Your enemies should not have any trouble distinguishing between the Fighter and the Echo. The rules say it is "a magical, translucent, gray image of you". Flavour is free, of course, you can dress that up however you want, but the intention is clear that they are visually distinct. So any enemy that understands the rules will know not to waste attacks or spells on the Echo. Basically, get creative with your spellcaster enemies. Hold Person, Hideous Laughter, Wall of Fire, Greater Invis, Major Image - just a few examples of ways to shake things up for them. All that said, remember that the game is not You VS the Players. Keep these in mind to challenge them when appropriate, but do not go out of your way to make them miserable or punish them for playing a subclass. Let them do their cool thing most of the time, it's why they showed up to the table.

[@Janky03]

My idea of a echo would be that the pc is shadow can take a physical form, or that a ghost or spirit/soul is the echo.

[@ERBaruin]

I had an Echo Knight on my table once... He made encounters trivial -Tried to wall in the party behind a wall of force and he just created the echo outside of it, switched places and killed the wizard thus ending the wall -Lower intelligence monsters would attack the echo, miss most of the time, but when they actually hit it was all for nothing, just a wasted action and the action economy was broken -He would teleport into the air to attack flying monsters -He would Action Surge and have his echo attack too making 7 attacks and killing my tougher baddies -It was impossible to pin him down with effects like web and such, he would just switch with the echo -And the scouting... he didnt use it that much, but man, when he did it was super frustrating Well to be honest everyone in that party was OP af, except for the cleric

[@thod-thod]

so many save effects trigger when a creature is in that area or touches that item - just an echo grabbing it and disappearing bc damage destroys it and suddenly the players are always completely safe

[@sarcasticsage984]

Yeah that depends on your dm as the echo can only do 1 thing and that is attack. No dodge action, no dash, no item interaction. Nothing execept attack.

[@luminous3558]

Surely casters can't do any of that stuff...

[@DiceTossVideos]

so if you just limited the number of times you can manifest echo and teleport to your echo then this becomes balanced? just do like a number of times equal to your con or prof bonus per short or long rest?

[@luminous3558]

Its already balanced. If you limit the echo summon then you just become a vanilla fighter after 2 combat rounds. The echo doesn't add to action economy. All it does by existing is give you range on your melee attacks. Compare this to a caster. Any problem an echo knight might cause can also be caused by a same level wizard. Reasonable nerfs would be: - the echo can't move on summon so you can only reach 15ft on the initial turn instead of 45ft. - unleash incarnation(bonus attack) doesnt work with action surge by being limited to once per turn.

[@DiceTossVideos]

what about an infinite keep away? as an archer you can never be closed in on you can just swap places and move out of melee range forever plus get attacks of opportunity each time. he also mentions the infinite climbing tech. and that's not true about the wizard, that's just blatantly false. no wizard at 3rd lvl has infinite teleportation uses. or infinite echos. idk if you have ever dm'ed before, but one tool in a dms kit is to wear down a party. the decision to use and when to use finite resources becomes an interesting part of the game. with such a strong feature and the possibility to abuse it in infinite techs suggests it is not balanced. @@luminous3558

[@crazy36069]

Echo Knight is probably the only Fighter Subclass that can truly match up to full casters. They can attack more, they have insane utility (at 7th level, when the Echo is 1000ft away from you, you can teleport to it using 15ft of movement. Crazy as hell.), you can stay away from melee combat, you can gain great temporary health consistently, and at 18th level, you can do it all twice as well. Sure, a caster will beat this in terms of AOE, Utility (bunches of spells), but this gives more uses of its utility features (infinite), and makes the fighter better at what it is doing (hitting stuff for good damage and being a frontliner).

[@NotreDanish]

What nerfs would you suggest to make it not quite OP? I wonder if unleash incarnation should be changed to prod bonus times per day, or maybe moved to a higher level, like the same level as the scouting feature.

[@egbert5871]

maybe limit how many can summon in combat (like can't meat grinder them 0 make on it dies as many times as you want is crazy like maybe start with 2 times in combat then more as you lvl up?

[@luminous3558]

Make unleash incarnation once per round so you limit the action surge madness. Maybe prevent the echo from moving the turn its summoned. Overall you can't do much to it. Its a strong martial but your party probably has 2 to 3 casters that will quickly outscale your fighter in terms of broken abilities. Might be best to sit down with the player to ask if he could not directly try to oneshot the big bad in every encounter. Rework your encounter design to allow fighters to healthily do their thing: put big enemies that need to be kept from storming the caster pcs and some mage enemies that do spell stuff. Now the echo knight could rush in to kill the mages but that could leave the casters open to getting rushed in return.

[@luminous3558]

@@egbert5871 no this is the worst way to go about it. The echo is the essential feature. Remember it does nothing if ignored. Monsters don't have to aggro onto it. If the echo is left alone it simply allows the fighter to attack at a slightly longer range. Always keep in mind that a strong martial is a mid caster at best so whatever nonsense stipulation you put on the fighter should also hit the party's wizard, cleric somewhat.

[@egbert5871]

@@luminous3558 ya , i personally don't think it needs a change or at lest not big one. Its not like other classes have crazy strong subclasses

[@thegraphite]

If you multiclass your Echo Knight to be a subclass with a companion, then when you summon your Echo does your Echo have an Echo companion? Like a Ranger Beast Master with animal companion. Casters with a familiar inherently tied to them? Or in my case, I'm building a potential Echo Knight/Artificer Battle Smith that has a Steel Defender. The companion is an integral part of the class. In my case, the concept in this - Warforged, so my character appears as a construct. His steel defender is a construct humanoid and same size/build, and it looks like him (except less gear of course). It looks at first glance like there are 2 of me. Then I summon an Echo. Now with my echo there, it looks like there seems to be 3 of me. Or... does my Echo have its inseparable companion Steel Defender also, in which case it now looks at first glance like there are 4 of me? The real me, my Steel Defender, my Echo, and my Echo's Steel Defender? I have searched online and cannot seem to find ANY place that even begins to address this. A pleasure to meet you; I am Buzzby "the Several."

[@farseerflore9512]

My Echo Knight hunys Demon, Djinns, Genies etc, and is possesed by a Ronnin Oni that's slowly taking over her mind without her knowing. The Oni posses the mind of anyone who takes pride in destroying him until he finaly takes over their consciousness. Stole it from 40k 😄

[@shadowldrago]

I wish this class could work with Ranged attacks, because then I could play Lucky Luke and literally shoot faster than my own shadow. Mostly because I think that would be very funny.

[@maxthillens1324]

I like this subclass a lot but you are kinda over exaggerating the lvl 7 feature thats just find familiar or seeing eye or lots of stuff

[@jdomond1]

It's my mane in a video 😊😊😊😊🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@trentmartin1061]

Technically at 3rd level you’re making 4 attacks with action surge it’s not limited to once per turn it’s ANY time you take the attack action.

[@enterthedungeon]

Very true as long as you have at least a +2 Con modifier!

[@Itachi45481]

Playing my echo fighter was fun even multiclassing my dm felt I was playing malenia blade of mickla

[@sashamarcy7381]

May i just say... STANDO POWAAAA!!!!

[@jacobyullman5005]

I love the concept of multiclassing an Astral Self Monk with an Echo Knight Fighter to effectively give yourself a Jojo Stand. 😂 Also, technically speaking, I think an Astral Self Monk lvl.17 + Echo Knight Fighter lvl.3 Is capable of making the most melee weapon attacks possible in a single turn. At maximum, a Samurai Fighter can make 9 attacks in one turn using Rapid Strike and Action Surge. Meanwhile an Echo Knight's Unleash Incarnation can be used when you make an attack action, not limiting it to once per turn. So if you're an Astral Self Monk lvl.17 + Echo Knight Fighter lvl.3, you can attack 3 times for your attack action thanks to Astral Barrage, then Unleash Incarnation for another attack. Then, you Action Surge for 3 more attacks, and Unleash Incarnation once again. That brings us up to 8 attacks in one turn. Then, we use our bonus action to Flurry of Blows for an additional 2 attacks. Making for a total of *10 attacks* in one turn (11 if you're hasted). Make all of those attacks from your Echo while you stand back with your arms crossed, and you're really living that Stand user fantasy. Equip this build with the legendary Gloves of Soul Catching, and you're ready to kill gods. (Edit: Quick correction. A level 20 Echo Knight can actually make more attacks in one turn. With 4 attacks from the attack action, 4 attacks from Action Surge, 2 attacks from Unleash Incarnation, and 1 bonus action attack from two weapon fighting. Totalling at 11 attacks.)

[@joseda3rd354]

I’ve wanted to multiclass Echo Knight with Monk. What’s the level progression (Monk first or fighter) Also how do I deal with unarmored defense and how do I prioritize ability scores?

[@Espere]

the number of uses of the echo should've really been limited to maybe the proficiency bonus. This would still make this class pretty powerful in most fights, but not as absurd as whatever this is.

[@ZenoTypeX2]

I'm actually in a campaign with an echo night. Yes it is quite powerful but it could still be taken down if you know what you're doing as our echo night has almost died several times

[@Andrew_the_Worthy_Shield]

In relation to spellcasting, I see this as perfectly balanced.

[@iprainwater7461]

Now you say that it's a nightmare for a DM, I say it's perfect BBEG material. BBEG has a party of Echo Kights. All of whom are mini bosses who are slightly stronger than the last one. BBEG is 20th level.

[@Reepicheep-1]

"It's broken!" Now give them a bow and Lucky Feet

[@raigheb9306]

Echo Knight plus Sentinel made my DM cry blood.

[@tacticstonk4740]

In my humble opinion, we should remove the limited charges of unlwash incarnation to better balance echo knight to full casters

[@samuelgeyman]

I would say bladesinger wizard beats out echo knight point for point You will NEVER feel weak as a blade singer, you get 9th level spells which no amount of attacks or echos are gonna compete with, huge ac and if you make it to level 18 the game is won, there is NO more game to play when wizards hit lvl 18 and up

[@Aczie042]

So, this class is just Dante's Doppelganger style from Devil May Cry 3 made into a class.

[@wmdavidhamilton]

RAW ...it would be stronger...You can teleport 1,000 feet. I don't play that way... but....

[@lolurnotkelly]

“Echo knight the shit out of everything”

[@tenlosol]

Honestly this is why I don't include CR stuff in my game. Besides not watching or listening to any of it I think CR stuff creates such a wild imbalance it's almost stupid not to take it and it just getting boring always seeing it. Like new setting backgrounds that give away free magic, which I always have a player take and it's always "I was there for year but then I ran away but I get these things."

[@tnatstrat7495]

The imbalance isn't really that wild and most the CR stuff is underpowered, not over. Really it's still average compared to a Divination Wizard.

[@tenlosol]

@@tnatstrat7495 agree to disagree then.

[@feral_orc]

​@@tenlosolit's alright, most people who play 5e actually care nothing for game balance and really consider themselves to be playing against the game.

[@tenlosol]

@@feral_orc I'm aware and it's a little frustrating when you can't find the right DM who can balance it or treats it like combat simulator. I really need to find a local pathfinder group sometime I've heard it balances stuff better

[@fr0stw0lf97]

Imagine you play Samuro from Heroes of the Storm. There, i gave you a player character idea. Have fun (not you DMs 😂)

[@wmdavidhamilton]

Add boots of speed and a potion of speed...

[@dezlacell7610]

Ban the subclass?!? I have to respectfully disagree. The echo knight IS very powerful as a fighter, but in no way unbeatable. It still outgunned by full casters, and it can get completely dropped if it fails a save at the wrong moment. Additionally, all of it's features need the echo to be manifested to be used. A bad initiative roll and it's getting rocked real fast. Also, if you want to use all of it's features with full synergy, you have to build your character for melee combat. So closing the gap against archers/ranged attackers can be a problem at any level. If anything, all martial classes, including the monk, need to be this powerful in their own unique way.

[@enterthedungeon]

Where did I say ban the subclass?

[@project_ronin4789]

Echo knight is literally just Talion from Shadow of War

[@mikemckinney7031]

My only thought about this awesome, yet Overpowered character class, is to power it down to this; you can summon an Echo Knight as many times per long (Or short rest) rest as your character has proficiency bonus. Duration you can have it up to 1 minute each. But that is my humble opinion.

[@sarcasticsage984]

That just take all of the fun out of it

[@luminous3558]

Why? You are already playing a martial which means outside of damage output and tanking you are worthless. Giving the echo limited use implies that you want the fighter to run out of uses at which point they become even worse. Casters don't have the stipulation of only using spells equal to their proficiency modifer per long rest, no they have like 10+ slots by lv5. Also you seem to overestimate what the echo actually does, it contributes no damage or actions and instead eats into the fighters bonus actions mostly for utility.

[@friskscipio]

15 level and the fighter only took maybe 40 damage? how? is the dm new and doesnt know how to balance encounters? is he still throwing you goblins? did the fighter was just lucky and barely got hit with weak attack? is the fighter a range fighter? at 15 lvl 30 to 40 damage is what you can expect if you succeded an aoe saving throw without resistance of that damage. or maybe im wrong and i have a dm that constantly throws us tougher enemies, he does tell us to have a backup character.

[@pewpewmegapew4169]

1 aoe

[@truesavagejack]

Rangers next? Gloom Stalker OP? Really love these by the way.

[@enterthedungeon]

Ranger eventually! I'm leaving the next class to a vote I think

[@supersalty_9459]

two barbarians doesnt sound like a bad idea lmao

[@gurugru5958]

As a DM, I hate it.

[@MrGunsnrosesfan100]

Just like to point out that there's a difference between "good" and "powerful" This subclass is absurdly powerful, which I don't think is good. It may be fun to play, but it's not fun for your DM to play around and it's also not fun for all your allies to do all they can just to see you do more.

[@tacticstonk4740]

Tell that to the over powered full casters

[@luminous3558]

Its a literal vanilla fighter with more movement options. Are your casters asleep?

[@stevenpopp4649]

Broken combo.. warforged gunslinger multi subed into echo knight... devastating

[@TheBronf]

am i the only dm that looks at this subclass and thinks " easy to deal with" so it isnt a problem? just me? ok.

[@Outland9000]

I think I'm not a huge fan of this class... Sounds too OP, even as a player. If you had one in your party and they are just smashing every foe you come across that wouldn't be much fun for the rest of us would it. However... A Monk with a dash of Echo Knight, that could be interesting.

[@kurtpearson2793]

Great Class, could use A LOT more limitations. It’s just another broken home brew. I’m guilty of this.

[@Andrew_the_Worthy_Shield]

It's worse than homebrew: it's official 5E content, unlike Blood Hunter.

[@luminous3558]

Its a fighter with a competent gap closer. Just design your encounters with more than 1 important enemy and you are fine.

[@Zr0din]

ABSOLUTELY Ban this subclass! Why the heck is this not a Monk? then it may be ballanced.

[@wmdavidhamilton]

Two levels of Barb...18 Echo...

[@deadmanfred]

Bit of missinfo here. You can't martyr yourself, only others, so that whole wall echo thing he talked about several times doesn’t exist. The scouting isn't that good. The echo can't open doors or even stealth.

[@Kintsugi_Landmine69]

I played an Echo Knight/Gloomstalker once. Worst DnD decision of my life as a player. Do not give Echo Knights more attacks, omg! I had a blowgun that literally did 1 damage and I felt absolutely broken! That's not fun for me. I'm gonna try to play my next Echo Knight very differently. I feel like the subclass has the potential to not be busted if you just don't be a dink with it. Just because you can do some insanely busted combos, doesn't mean you should. Discretion is definitely advised.

[@natehansen3098]

hexblade multiclasses are still worse... i think

[@DavidAndrews-eb7gm]

Echo Knights are lame, one trick ponies

[@The_mekboy_you_deserve]

With echo avatar you can also teleport on the position of your echo, so you can walk an entire dungeon, teleport, your echo dies and then you can resummon it next turn, you gain flanking against the BBEG then you manage to pummel it to the ground with an action surge and unleash incarnation, congrats you're probably doing 5d12+25 damage. Congrats! Your DM hates you now. Congrats you need no party anymore. I just love it for the flavor, power, utility and everything else, you're magnificent in almost everything you do all alone. As a DM I have learnt to love to hate it. An enemy kills the echo, happiness.jpeg, realises the Fighter is 30ft away and you already used your attack action, then it realises the fighter can also summon them infinitely while staying 30ft away.

[@sarcasticsage984]

Yeah you can't teleport when using an Echo avatar and as Echo is considered an object it doesn't give you flanking bonus either.

[@sevret313]

If that actually works then your DM failed to set up a proper encounter as you went in there without any support.

[@The_mekboy_you_deserve]

@@sarcasticsage984 Is the echo considered an object? Weird, I have not seen it depicted in this way ever, but it would make sense. And since when does it specify that I can't teleport during echo avatar? The level 3 feature says that I expend a bonus action to teleport to the echo's position no matter the distance, and the echo is destroyed if you end your turn while it is more than 30ft away from you. This means that in a previous time within 10 minutes I could have used echo avatar, then dropped the ability in one of my later turns (no action required) and teleport there as a bonus action. Tell how would that not work in this instance?