Why Your Next Bike Fit Should Not Use Lasers

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About Neill Stanbury: neillsbikefit.com.au
About the RCA: roadcyclingacademy.com
Expert Bike Fitter Neill Stanbury explains why laser bike fitting can cause more problems than solutions. Fitting people to bikes should be the main priority when it comes to bike fitting. Fitting people to set parameters may sound good in theory, but there is a lot more to this process than one might think.
#cycling #bike #fit

[@cwmoo]

Hope you come back to read this old comment. In my mechanical engineering and product design classes back in college I learned about a famous US air force study. In 1926 the air force calculated average leg length, average arm length, torso length, etc, for a sample of their pilots, trying to make the perfect plane cockpit and seat. This ended up causing severe ergonomic issues for almost all of their pilots, so the military commissioned a follow up study in 1950 of 4000 pilots. They found that there wasn't a single individual that was close to average in all dimensions. Every individual pilot had some large deviation from "normal" in at least one major dimension. Therefore there was no possible way to design a static cockpit that would fit every person - which caused the Air Force to develop adjustable seats and controls, so that the fit could be customized to each person. “The tendency to think in terms of the ‘average man’ is a pitfall into which many persons blunder,” Daniels wrote in 1952. “It is virtually impossible to find an average airman not because of any unique traits in this group but because of the great variability of bodily dimensions which is characteristic of all men.” The same is true for bike fitting. Trying to stick to an average knee or hip or arm angle is doomed to fail.

[@Jin_KX]

Completely agree. My worst position was done by a fitter who relied entirely on Retul fitting system's recommended angles. Saddle height was way off to the extent that I felt pain in my palms the moment I mounted the bike. Back ache also kicked in almost instantly since I was incredibly unstable on the bike. It is so incredibly misleading that this is the same information that gets spread around the Internet and I always relied upon them since I figured that experts have developed this. Came a turning point after riding for years with so much pain I decided to disregard everything I've read (except Neil's video and Steve Hogg's material of course!) and learn how to feel for my position. God bless you all for providing these insights! Problem also with bike fitting systems is also that they need to sell it so it appears that everyone who goes through the course gets certified regardless of how competent they are in biomechanics.

[@ronitdebnath]

Colby Pearce had told once how the Systematized approach is irrelevant to most individuals. In US Air Force they did a study on 4000+ individuals to check what number of people lie in the middle 1/3rd of each parameter. And the answer was none. Out of 4000+, none of the individuals fell in the middle 1/3rd of each parameter and that is what the system with fit you to. Steve Hogg talks about how a neurological approach is so vastly superior and qualitative to a biomechanical approach which is quantitative. A quantitative approach assumes that everyone's muscle recruitment is similar at that angle. And it simply is not. In seat height itself some have their hams chopping at the bottom of the stroke at 145 degrees, some at 135 degrees some anywhere in between and that, where it happens is the correct seat height for you. Not 138-142 degrees which is the "average range". It assumes everyone's switches off at that range. Same for ankle angle. Many people are severe toe pointers, many are severe heel droppers. Its their business. Forcing them to pedal with a technique in between simply doesn't work. If someone needs a wide stance and they are given an average stance they will develop medial/lateral issues in the knee. So to sum it up, the average is so irrelevant to the individual.

[@Tommy31416]

This is one of the most informative comments I’ve ever seen on KZbin. Chapeau Sir and thank you 👍

[@ronitdebnath]

@@Tommy31416 Grateful. I am from India, cycling hasn't caught up here like in the west but hope to be a world class fitter in the years to come.

[@jerrydixon9865]

Finally someone saying exactly what I wanted to say forever. I live in the states and man I wish there was a way I could get this guy to fit me on a bike.

That's it! As an Old School cyclist, I've been saying from the very beginning that bike fit doesn't really work, it's just a reference. This video explains things very well that I can't even think of.

[@mohess1]

I’m a bike fitter and use motion capture exclusive on all my bike fits. First, I agree fitters that rely solely on the numbers motion capture provides are missing the mark. I’ve hooked up riders to the system and the initial capture were within the systems parameters. What I tell the rider is, your within the system’s standard , but your fit is not right. Then we go to work… Secondly, placement of the body markers are critical. I spend no less than 10 mins placing markers (knee landmark is where some fitters get it wrong). I also use a system the measures pelvis rotation, the system provides a linear graph and numbers, where I can see micro adjustments a riders is making. When a rider is making several micro adjustments I know the saddle is not supporting the rider, and a saddle adjustment is required. Final I agree, a bike fitter that fits a rider based solely on motion capture numbers isn’t seeing the whole picture. My viewpoint is motion capture is the “science”, and the “art” is making adjustments based on movements on the bike regardless of the numbers a motion capture system is spitting out.

[@mohess1]

Agree!

[@donwinston]

I've been hesitant to get a bike fit from my local bike shop because they don't have fancy equipment like this. I guess I should reconsider.

[@cyc00000]

Neill has to be the best in the biz

[@sleephealing4009]

Absolutely agree. This is an honest point of view from an expert bike fitter. Thanks to both of you Neill and Cam. Hoping someday you will be doing a bike fit sessions here in SG.(Handmade is still better than CNC)

[@avitch2]

So appreciate your perspective and expertise. As a consumer, it is just very tough to know who knows what they're doing and who just sounds confident and knowledgeable.

[@frankspeakmore7104]

Thank you so much for showing Chris Froome. I have tried for ages to obtain a a good powerful pedalling stroke, and watched bike fitters on KZbin and they mostly talk about angles etc but Froomes position went all against that with a low seat and high RPM which added to the frustration and there are plenty of other pro riders who are fast but also fly in the face of angles etc. I think that lasers are a good "aid" bit experience like you have is much much better. Thank you so very much.

[@colecoleman1499]

What a timing of this video. Just recently dived into bike fit angles and learning about this stuff. Glad to know it's irrelevant and OMG! I had the same concern regarding the placement of dot. Great you pointed it out.

[@edsassler6749]

Here’s something to consider. Steve’s definition of knee control is the ratio of mechanical advantage of the quad to the mechanical advantage of the hamstring. The attachment points and fulcrum points are known, and can be seen by motion capture. If you take the top of the patella as the fulcrum point of the quad and the back of the knee as the fulcrum point of the hamstring, the mechanical advantage of both systems is SIN of the angle. Take the ratio of the two and you have a function showing control of the knee. I did the math, came up with a function based on an offset from retul’s knee position (requires 2 measurements) and sent it to Retul. They ignored it, probably because they didn’t understand it. Going by a target knee angle is simple - it’s also wrong most of the time. They stick with simple…

[@MrLuigi-oi7gm]

Great video. For me, the word "smooth" is what I like to think about when setting my seat height. I will lower and lower my seat till I get to the height when I feel totally smooth throughout the stroke. When I get to that height, I am also in control throughout the stroke. So I agree the "being in control" is also a great way to address seat height. Not that you needed my agreement!!! 🤣🤣🤣

[@GerhardDIETRICH]

Great video and congratulations for your opened mind and break out from the standard but to telling the thruth is important 👍👍👍👍🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹ps: many bike fitter will hate u now

[@mohamadjamil3164]

Excellent advise. I totally agree and it is individual and changes from bike to bike.

[@BrianMcDonald]

I had an old bike fit and have been fine tuning the fit for a new bike with slightly different geometry. I didn't do anything like the fit systems mentioned in the video, but I used lasers for two things that were helpful for me in making micro-adjustments with my Q factor and saddle height where I didn't have another person looking at me. Aside from using the lasers to level the bike, the first thing was where I had a vertical laser that was aligned with the center of my pedal that let me see where my knee tracking was smoothest and most symmetrical based on the q factor and saddle height adjustments, and a horizontal laser at hip level that let me see when I was minimizing hip rocking the most. I have above average body awareness, and I felt like I was able to break new ground from the previous fit in reducing the issues that my anatomy brings to the table with cycling mechanics.

[@mrwezbo]

Yeah I think a key distinction here the title gets wrong is the use of lasers or the use of the angle recommendations - the software doesn't necessarily use lasers but gives garbage recomendations. Lasers help to see alignment for sure.

[@savagepro9060]

Jacques Anquetil, considered the most perfect pedaling machine in cycling history, was famous for extensive toe-down pedaling. To this day, he still holds the record for what we now call: World Time Trial Championship, back then known as the Grand Prix de Nations. Also he was the first to win the Tour de France FIVE times, the Giro, TWO times, and the Vuelta, ONCE. The FIRST to win all THREE Grand Tours. Imagine how many times people told him to change his pedaling technique!

[@BadassStealthFace]

Obviously he would have won six Tours if he used lasers. Even champions can be boneheads.

[@slowcyclist4324]

So basically it means that he was able to continuously and perfectly replicate an imperfect cycling stroke? Folks need to start to realise that performance in a field is not the same as theoretical perfection. That comes from years of study and calculates analysis, and rarely time on the bike.

[@savagepro9060]

@@slowcyclist4324 it was the same with Andre Agassi and his coach Nick Bollettieri. Agassi would hit the ball all over the place, but Bollettieri never stopped THAT. But rather, allowed him to continue until he perfected that imperfection. Thus creating HIS style. It took a while, then . . . BOOM💥💥💥

[@savagepro9060]

@@BadassStealthFace laser equuipment in Anquetil's era? Doesn't that make YOU a bonehead?

[@BadassStealthFace]

@@savagepro9060 well done guy

[@mikehhhhhhh]

Been watching these fit videos out of pure interest for the last 6 months and the philosophies and explanations resonate so well, I just wish I could find someone like this in the UK. I went for a fit and the results left me making more power but with more problems 🙃

[@ronitdebnath]

Have u tried Bikefit james or the Steve Hogg certified ones in UK?

[@mikehhhhhhh]

@@ronitdebnath James is top of my list so far. He’s fairly local. I will research Steve Hogg certified, thanks

[@dogxcd]

Garry Kirk (Glasgow) and Scherrit Knoesen(Reading) tick the boxes

[@mikehhhhhhh]

@@dogxcd after the above recommendation, I found Sherrit and had a fit with him last week. It was a great experience!

[@chrisault3122]

cyclefit try those guys

[@maurosartor990]

Il miglior video in assoluto che ho visto ,dopo aver cambiato tre biomeccanici di livello "standrd".Considerazioni di alto livello professionale.

[@alainpfammatter8224]

great informative video. He is so right.

[@airman8368]

1000000% agree. The sad fact is that customers think the amount of "bling" a fitter has is directly proportional to how good the fitter is. But nothing can replace experience.

[@kidsafe]

I've got a low saddle height too. 177cm tall with a 71.4cm saddle height while also riding 165mm cranks. Setback is about 63mm with a 240mm short-nose saddle. Inseam...not actually sure, somewhere around 81.5cm I think. I recently acquired Abi Smith's EF Education-Tibco-SVB SuperSix. She's probably a centimeter shorter, but her saddle height was 74.5cm with a lot more setback.

[@IlanPearlman]

1st bike fitter i went to, the fitter used one of these systems. Changed my position and told me everything was great because the system said every angle was within parameters. Despite not feeling good and not resolving the issues I wanted to address. Second fitter, like Neil fitted me according to my needs and body and the issues I wanted resolved. The other thing is generally they only measure one side of the rider, so how can they possibly address leg length issues or any asymmetric issues?

[@felixjackson2670]

Yep. Been doing bike fit for past 10 years..always thought the ‘laser’ thing was rubbish. Look at Flat foot style of Merckx..then the Toe down of Anquetil. Opposite end of the spectrum,both riders best in the world.

[@dogxcd]

I find a laser very useful for levelling a bike in the turbo trainer and setting/measuring seat setback without parallax (using a big joinery square on the floor)

[@robertcatuara5118]

I was willing to spend a lot of money for laser fitting. Luckily my fitter was old school, experienced and didn't use the system. He charged me a fraction of the price and I followed up a few times till it was perfect.

[@adamkubiak1933]

Same observation here. The systems measure angles at joints and neglect the fact that they influence one's ability to recruit muscles.

[@JulianAndresKlode]

Other topic that'd be interesting is fitting bike vs fitting on your bike. Some fitters argue fitting on your own bike is rubbish because your bike may be the wrong one, so you should find your right position on a fitting bike and then transfer it to the bike if it works (or well get a new bike that would fit).

[@ronitdebnath]

James from BIkefit james does that.

[@JulianAndresKlode]

@@ronitdebnath I'd still like to see the two have a discussion video. Have a couple talking points maybe collect some questions and see where approaches differ.

[@Jari1973]

Thank you for the video! According to current trends.. what size bike should be for a 165 cm man.. 46??

[@DanielGruszka]

If Neill started a cult, I would definitely leave my family and join it

[@JayLato]

considering the thousands of other variables, would the left right power balance feature of my Assioma Duo help with determining if my seat might be too high?

[@unclepauliestl]

Agree!

[@bryanthutchinson2639]

Any bike fitters you would recommend in the Seattle area? Also, what’s your opinion on the IDMatch system? Is it different than retul?

[@cshowe80]

I’d love to hear what fitters like Neil, the artistic fitter, feels about the new aged AI Bike Fit software. He said “the longer you do it the better you get” but that’s not true for AI. Load the data & go …

[@k473r]

I wish I saw this video before spending a lot of money on a bike fit. I'm suffering more than before and I have 200€ less to spend on a good pair of shoes or a nice saddle.

[@jamesong2672]

Recently there is even one call ID Match. Don’t even fit u with a hood. Holding the drops all the way. And those I seen that went for the fit were riding toes down.

[@bakerk5030]

is the no hands naruto run bike fit method objectively the best way to do a bike fit? It assures that most of your weight is off the front.

[@edsassler]

Retul has always been a data based system, but I never considered that it’s distorting it’s own data. Their sales pitch says they’ve done 200,000 fittings, the numbers from those fittings create their database. If their fittings started with saddles set too high (they did) the acceptable ranges will also run high and over time the whole massive database will be too high. Let’s face it, they are doing more automated harm than good bike fitters focusing on one individual at a time can correct. That’s achieving job security in the worst possible way.

[@davekashuba4730]

You know, I have one simple request, and that is to have bike fitters with frickin laser beams attached to their heads.

[@RichieStanaway]

Not as good without cam going ‘hmmm roight’ in the background after every sentence

[@pensarfeo]

I don't understand though, do measurements help or not?

[@amjan]

Of course they do.

[@pensarfeo]

@@amjan Could you elaborate more on this?

[@glennoc8585]

I have a short femur to tibia ratio albeit an a average rage leg length to my height. I favour a higher seat and forward position with clear set back.

[@jerryavalos9610]

That is what you like, you can be your own bike fitter, you look for comfort and efficiency.

[@robertmcfadyen9156]

Lasers "cannot" account for asymmetry and bodily imperfections , flexibility .

[@larrygrossman8021]

Oval chainrings and a Selle SMP saddle: Are you trying to make your bike look as goofy as possible?

[@MiguelAugusto1982]

lol. would like the explanation on the oval chainring as well :) have to search that video.. :)

[@mirceaandreighinea]

:-) well, this is a good one ;-)

[@russstarke6004]

Apples and oranges but I still find it humorous that there is a laser device in the background.

[@jessejarjour]

And Niel's website shows him working with lasers.

[@amjan]

Oranges are rounder. They are better for measurments.

[@EnragedMollusk]

I like the way Australians say "ashoom".

[@MiguelAugusto1982]

looool.... almost made me wake up the kids bursting out laughing 😂

[@miguelpaul1164]

Do your videos in white or light grey cycling shorts and do them standing about and you WILL GET MORE VIEWS!!!

[@patrickparisienne1917]

If a fitter spends more time looking at a screen rather than the rider, it’s a red flag!

[@nicknick194]

The guy on the yellow Factor looks like he's in a really awkward position!

[@jamespan617]

If it fits. Why fix it.

[@ozgurinsan]

cycling should not be this complicated.

[@andrewgavin...]

Hopefully the bike fitter is smart enough to understand ALL the taught parameters are baseline to get started, but not the recipe for a good bike fit for the different cyclist that they work with. The ONE absolute about lasers in bike fitting is lasers do help with separating money from a customers wallet.

[@edsassler]

That’s not how they teach. My shop sent me to Retul University a few years back. They teach it as a step by step method. While I was there they did demonstration fittings on paying clients. A woman came in with back problems, they did their step by step fitting and charged her $300, and she left with the same back problems… Bike fitting is really about interfacing a machine with terrible quality control (the human body) with a machine that has good quality control. It’s always going to be problem solving. They can’t teach that.