Why Zelda is GARBAGE in Melee, and how she changed in Project M

[@ReunionMana]

From a Zelda main, Zelda’s character archetype/kit is entirely focused on defense. Her slow speed and laggy moveset (across all versions besides project m) cater to a punish playstyle, and the combos she does have are reliant on a laggy option connecting (grab, utilt, nair), meaning capitalizing on enemy endlag is her best option. Since the introduction of Phantom in Smash 4 and Ultimate as well as the Din’s Fire change in project m, she’s become a kind of setup/trap/projectile character, but she’s still defensive to the core. Her shitty attributes (slow speed, large model, floatiness, low weight) mean getting combo’d is detrimental and generally her disadvantage state is hard to escape, so staying out of disadvantage becomes a mainstay of her playstyle, hence the defensive focus. Additionally she can’t approach opponents because of her lack of fast framedata, meaning on top of the slow/strong moves that she has, Zelda ultimately just wants her enemy to come to her, fuck up their approach, and then she can do whatever she wants. If you think that’s dumb and a terrible playstyle, then voila, you’ve understood what we low tier mains have been dealing with from day zero. Narratively speaking from Zelda’s origins as the princess getting captured by Ganon, it’s sort of fitting that once her opponent gets in on her they’ve basically won-she can’t escape disadvantage like she can’t escape Ganon. I think her moveset and attributes might’ve been chosen intentionally to stay in line with her role in the game series.

[@NodokenStar-k917]

The problem is that speed is almost universal through all the Smash games and characters who play defensively stands little chance against characters who can dodge attacks easily. And since she has no backup options to compensate her weaknesses it makes her very difficult to play. If Zelda wants to play like a zoner then she needs tools punish faster characters.

[@burnerffx]

i aint reading allat

[@kie2]

I dunno I feel like you can play anybody defensively and you're just left with only that playstyle on bad characters. Zelda was my first main back when I was like 8 for whatever reason and then the next time I had any interest in her was Ultimate where I think they really nailed the character even if she's still undertuned. One of the balance concerns I have with project + is that any buffs to Zelda are then necessarily buffs to Shiek as well. So if Zelda was in the top 20 or something and had a different matchup chart to Shiek I could totally see her getting lots of play in specific matchups. Even in Melee some people (definitely people on the fringes but some people) think Zelda is a potential good option to deal with ICs. So I mean if that was greatly expanded you'd probably have 3 or 4 matchups Shieks would always take as Zelda.

[@Kasunoske]

i'm a zelda main, she's SS tier when i use her

[@Kasunoske]

and i mean in melee

[@sandeater0214]

LUL

[@Cristeve]

@@Kasunoske We're proud of you :)

[@genericbonk]

Yeah, her down b is probably the best move in the entire game I hope it gets nerfed

[@Cristeve]

@@genericbonk Wow, that definitely-not-old-and-overused joke was so funny! Have you worked in a circus clown group before? You would do great

[@gnardawgyt]

Zelda #6 on the tier list because she can switch to Sheik is just plain fraudulent

[@dustymcwari4468]

The definition of being carried

[@kiwikarp9509]

This is based on other comments I read, but it was also cause no one had an answer to her sweetspot forward or back air.

[@Xaos_]

I will say, I love that you’re doing these videos, but I think that you need to make longer videos for a character like Zelda, with how unknown she seems to be compared to a lot of the cast. There’s a lot to go over with her, and if you’re doing a comparison video, just saying “she’s better because these moves/attributes are better than in melee” without giving solid examples, then people are still gonna be left wondering *why*. Like, for example, when you went over her tilts, you essentially just said that “they’re better for combo’s/poking” , but there’s a lot more to them than that. That primarily applies to ftilt really. For example, up tilt has invincibility on her moving arm, and it’s a very good kill move at late % because of its high bkb and kbg. Another thing you mentioned was that Naru’s can be canceled after the attack frames, which is partly true. Naru’s can be land canceled, by doing an instant short hop Naru’s, and if done correctly, the lag of Naru’s will cancel after the attack frames when she hits the ground Sorry if I sound too harsh on this, I’m just really nit-picky with my character lol

[@666blaziken]

Legend has it that in P+, if you manage to hit an opponent with the actual detonation explosion (rather then pressing side b) you will have experienced nirvana.

[@jhtv5757]

I used to juggle people with this in college lol

[@Cristeve]

I don't think she's THAT bad, it's just that she may look like a horrible character compared to Sheik She has the potential to be at least a Low Mid Tier character Pros: 1.- Slow, but easy and short combo game, Dash Attack is one of the most spammable moves in the game, it can both combo or kill 2.- Her multi-hits are really annoying because how unpredictable they are, Jab is stupidly easy to hit and you can use Up Smash and Neutral Air many times in a row if the final hit fails 3.- Side B and Neutral B are underrated, they are really good, Neutral B is a easy edgeguard tool and a pretty decent and annoying out of shield option and Side B can make different things depending on how does it hit, it can combo into a Lighting Kick at high percentages or cancel opponent's second jump while it's coming back the stage 4.- She can stall under the ledge infinitely as many other characters, her Up B has a hitbox that is big enough to be able to stall safely 5.- Zelda has one of the best throw games, she can combo with Up and Down Throw very easily, chaingrab with Up Throw and also kill with Back Throw Cons (Everyone knows them lol): 1.- Slow frame data 2.- Her stats suck, she's one of the slowest characters at run speed and she's floaty 3.- You have to be in a very specific spot in order to be able to grab the ledge with Up B without going over it 4.- Her multi-hits barely work correctly, which is both bad and good at the same time, but mostly bad 5.- As you have Sheik as an option all the time, you need a lot of willpower to be able to keep playing Zelda during all the match, unless you're a Zelda main that's not a problem

[@lapplandkun9273]

1. Also predictable 2. You can SDI out of her upsmash. Jab also being stupidly easy to hit could be applied to virtually every other character. Ganon also has a good jab 3. You must be referring to ultimate zelda, because melee zelda's neutral b is lackluster, where in ultimate, its a viable move. Side b also doesn't combo to lightning kick. Again, you're referring to ultimate. 4. You can only stall for a certain time limit in the tournament ruleset. There's a reason why its banned. If you also have to switch to shiek just to play zelda adequately, then you're not maining her. You're maining Shielda.

[@Cristeve]

@@lapplandkun9273 You're clearly not a Zelda player and you only judge based on popular opinions, you can stall infinitely on Slippi because there's no rules and of course nobody could do that forever in tournaments; Din's Fire does combo into a Lightning Kick at around 80-130% and Neutral B isn't the same as Ultimate but it's still a decent move, just like in Ultimate it's good for edgeguarding and in Melee the hitboxes keep active for longer

[@sandeater0214]

Love Zelda, my favorite character in smash. I'm glad she's good in ultimate, but I accept the struggle in melee. Side air for life! This was also a great video, keep it up

[@ZachHonest]

Thank you, I appreciate that. I'm working on a video on Pichu coming soon.

[@kitkat9716]

i love seeing this retrospective content about smash characters and people in general. great work

[@uraninezak]

Zelda was considered better in version 0.00 because moves that dealt less than 1% couldn't be SDI'd out of, so her multi hit attacks actually connected reliably. RIP that being consistent. I wish Ultimate brought back Zelda and Sheik transforming again. Given Shiek's combo prowess and Zelda having so many kill move setups, It would've been a very solid combination. Just not sure if people would be willing to sacrifice her phantom. The number of comments of people trying to say Zelda isn't bad in base Melee crack me up. If she wasn't bad, she would have tournament presence.

[@ZAPRST8879]

Late but just change dins fire for phantom and made zelda use more fire base move to represent din fire

[@lapplandkun9273]

No. Zelda should keep her phantom. It complements her defensive playstyle and it was the exact design philosophy. The whole Zelda/Sheik thing wasn't bad but it was clear people were only using sheik

[@bucketfullabiscuits7865]

Also I’d like to mention a Zelda-like character in Rivals of Aether, Absa! The kind of stage control tactics you can exhibit if you put dins fire and lightning kicks on a character with mewtwo physics and quick attack, insane. I can’t stand playing any other version of Zelda now because they feel so bland to me

[@lyrabelacqua4120]

Yoo Zac, Where’d you get that greens screen.

[@ZachHonest]

It's actually in my editing program, I learned how to edit in debug mode so I can take shots with a blank background and just remove them now. Kinda neat

[@trixssbm]

@@ZachHonest what is the "edition program"

[@ZachHonest]

@@trixssbm Sony Vegas Pro 17. But Im thinking about learning something else because it crashes all the time.

[@TheTrixster690]

I wonder where would Shielda be ranked in the Melee tier list if people used them as intended ? (As well as their placements as separate characters) Anyone else also thinking this ?

[@TheTrueBrawler]

Probably low on the list mainly because of the time it takes to swap between them.

[@lapplandkun9273]

Mid low. Might as well stick to shiek and play a viable character

[@andrewbank4696]

I'm personally more of a fan of Smash Flash's Zelda (than Project + Zelda) since the devs changed her moveset purely with comboing in mind. That way, she played pretty similar to sheik in that their combos are intuitive, but instead of having devastating edgeguards, Zelda has strong (but hard to hit) finishers.

[@alizafar2624]

V0.9b Zelda is better than beta Zelda

[@clovis-]

competitive melee absolutely relies on fast hitting combos, but that doesn’t mean zelda sucks.. competitive play and yknow, couch play are entirely different. she can be a lot of fun to play with!!

[@nomthepainaway.5187]

Really wish she was made or reworked to function similarly to that of Peach and Puff in where their Ariel game is outstanding, defensive play is incredibly and stage recover/off stage control is terrifying to go up against too. A character can be slower, floatier and even lighter than most whilst still having a powerful kit if you just give them good enough moves and mechanics made with intention of defence oriented play. Dins fire really could work similar to how it does in Project M/ Project X and be what turnips are to Peach. To me the most incredibly delicious part of it all is the idea of a defensive floaty character in the vein of Peach or Puff COMBINED with sheik to make one character that transforms into two completely different playstyles to go up against what they need to for whatever situation. I could see Zelda being better at air game, off stage control, recovery and overall defensive play to be helpful when the offensive aggressor Sheik is having trouble in whichever areas. Such a missed opportunity to make such a versatile and flexible duo.😭 I feel Sakurai had a vague idea of this being the case with Zelda given how her Dins fire (despite the dumb free fall) skewers her descent and allows her to move horizontally in the air while using it, her Ariel’s are hard to hit yet devastating and she’s an overall floaty easy to kill character. She obvi has some very promising moves it’s just a shame she doesn’t have the kinda mechanics that the likes of Peach and Puff have both for movement and pressure to utilise nor enough promising moves to make up for her glaring weaknesses. Though I do think defensive floaty play with the strengths I listed before would’ve been and still is the perfect offset and placement for Zelda to have as an opposed to Sheik. Making her their opposite in strength when it comes to stage KOing and relatively gameplay on how to get there. Would’ve been so cool, like having a Fox and Peach combined into one character that transforms on a whim to whatever situation or opponent they’re up against. Though challenging for the player to use both of them correctly individually THEN ALSO combining their given strengths/playstyles together into some nasty combos and jaw dropping switching moments.

[@jackdaone6469]

Was the Transform that slow? I got pretty good at timing the transform mixup just right for Zelda to finish off a weakened opponent back in the day. Brawl pissed me off because the transform sequence was, like, a full 2-3 seconds and thus it made using Transform to go from Sheik to Zelda for a mixup worthless at that point. But it seems to me that the answer would have been to shorten the transformation instead of lengthen it.

[@lapplandkun9273]

Brawl's transform was worse because of how the disks in the game individually read. In melee, it was faster because it loaded both characters. Brawl was meant to be slower because of how the game read the files

[@michaelj9153]

Why is zelda both light and slow I feel she should actually be very heavy

[@ZachHonest]

Zelda in Melee feels like she has an identity crisis LMAO

[@carcharo7]

You calling her fat? 😡

[@yungmuney5903]

I think Zelda is supposed to be a "Wall" archetype. Slow but Powerful, all about setting up a 'Wall' of danger to harrass your opponent, heavily punishes you for approaching them incorrectly. However if you get through their defenses or get pass their 'wall', it's gg for them.

[@captainmega6310]

Look at Ultimate Zelda, I think I got it. She's supposed to be a defensive glass cannon

[@lapplandkun9273]

@@yungmuney5903 That was the design intended for zelda by sakurai. He meant for shiek to be fast but weak while zelda was slow but strong. it didn't pan out like he intended, because shiek actually had a bunch of killing moves that were better than zeldas

[@azurecerulean1279]

wow its rare seeing a zelda retrospective video let alone melee zelda, amazing

[@ZachHonest]

Check out the channel, there's more stuff out now.

[@WorkTheGrox]

Good video however zelda is not a bad character. If used in a smart way there can be great results. Put some respect on zelda players, show some highlights if you are going to include someone in a vid.

[@mattzr1550]

I would say neutral special and up special are good parts of her kit.

[@jameslisterthemarthplayer8322]

The best Zelda in Smash has to be Zelda in Smash Ultimate, she’s so cute.

[@oliverafton1444]

As a Zelda Main... yeah she isn't very good... but i still love to play as her. I'm sorry, but i prefer to use Zelda than Peach, maybe it's because i think Zelda looks cuter than Peach tbh, so if i had to choose between them... yeah, Zelda.

[@Midnight_Afton645]

so do I. I mained her in ultimate before i got Pyra and Mythra and I'm going to a summer program that allows you to play video games in a certain period. Since we didn't have clearance to get DLC characters this year I played as Zelda again after god knows how long and I forgot just how cracked i could be when playing as Zelda sometimes.

[@tardissins7512]

Zelda can do some wacky stuff in melee if you know how to use her. I’m still shocked how quick short hop back/forward air out of shield is

[@ZhimeZSR]

Great video on Zelda! Thank you for covering her in PM/P+!

[@Abigdummy4life]

P.S.: Twilight Princess Zelda is the hottest one to me cause of both being a burnette and rocking dem cute knee high boots, so she moves up tiers in my book >//////> Not like Brawl saved her one bit after Melee though...

[@lapplandkun9273]

Dude, Project M is a mod made by the community. It isn't an official smash title. And they never gave it to her because they based Zelda off of Melee and Brawl's physics engine. Project M was made to mix both Melee and Brawl's engine together and was made during Brawl's competitive lifespan, which was why it was based off both those games and not later titles

[@clay2889]

Very interesting video, I don't know a lot about Project M, but I am a Zelda main in Smash ultimate and can relate to a lot of her struggles. It was cool to learn about her history in smash

[@kennythekid130]

This was a great video!

[@cvlcek144]

I have a pocket zelda main. I honesty don't have problems against mostvthe cast except Sheik, and Puff tbh

[@TheTrixster690]

How was transform programmed incorrectly ?

[@ZachHonest]

It's too slow to make viable competitively.

[@alizafar2624]

Melee was a rushed game, it had a lot of glitches and bugs like marths grab range, and link nair hitbox duration. Transform should have been at frame 1. Zelda should have been the same as sheik except her attacks are stronger, much like pyra and mythra.

[@alizafar2624]

@@nekofnek4762 I think they just spent all the development on sheik in melee, and just left Zelda with all the flaws. Even then brawl onwards Zelda was still low tier (ultimate Zelda is still debatable), the developers don't know what to do to make her a better viable character. Project plus did give Zelda credit but she still has flaws with range. Her up smash has hitbox and timing problems hitting a standing picachu. Brawl minus did give Zelda better spacing options due to her extended hitboxes.

[@Cristeve]

@@alizafar2624 I strongly agree, Melee is that glitchy because it's a rushed game, many hitboxes don't even work correctly or are missing

[@lapplandkun9273]

@@Cristeve also, G&W has a smaller shield for some reason even though the rest of the cast has standard sized shields and can't l cancel half his aerials

[@themonoloco8245]

How many peaches bessides that 1 retired player have made results? Naw bro peach does suck

[@TheDeepThinker-sq3iy]

The answer to your question is IN your question einstine. she DOESN'T suck... because SOMEONE *WAS ABLE* to get results with her. being difficult to use is no reason to be labeled as bad. the fact ANYONE can just grab a labeled "bad" character and manage to compete and WIN against elites demonstrates how a character can be seen, redefined and even go as far as re shaping an entire metagame.

[@robertsmall5168]

6:03 *he

[@evanwilliams6406]

I prefer Zelda in Ultimate.

[@malonee]

I remember seeing the zhime combo video back in the day. I miss pre 3.0 zeldork

[@sfee9386]

damn your content is crazy good i did not expect this

[@Athesies]

I dont think zelda's up b is all that bad if you learn all its tricks and quirkiness, its got properties that let her reduce its landing lag that sheik just doesn't have. Its a tough call but id say its just a bit worse than sheiks up b. I mean end of the day you can use it to do the armada slayer, it can't be that bad

[@pinkykart9325]

that intro was top notch

[@robastergaming6074]

idk man, her down-b in melee is kinda op

[@ZachHonest]

you right tho

[@susiehaltmann3342]

Im sorry Zelda was actually a top tier when Melee first released? What the fu-

[@brycehayashi]

Perfect music while describing her move set

[@ZachHonest]

my recent videos are even better lol

[@spacebaby3591]

The by far best move Zelda has in melee is down special

[@1122markj]

You just don't know how to play as Zelda in Melee. EDIT: In fairness, barely anyone does.

[@lonk_skonk]

Yeah Zelda's really good if you use down B

[@dannueldelacruz8566]

Soy el único que cree que los ataques de fuego de Zelda en Melee dan pena?

[@nothanksthough]

oh hell yeah thats mikey

[@LilfoxTheHybridHylian5967]

Yes..

[@burnerffx]

how was she ever top 6

[@potatostuffing5643]

The actual title of this video should be,- "Why Zelda is GARBAGE in EVERY GAME in the series, and how she STILL SUCKS in Project M".