Will Apple's M4 close the gap with NVidia?

[@vertigoz]

The amount of memory available to the GPU is quite enticing though

[@marvelousdecay]

That’s true. It’s definitely one of the benefits of Apple’s architecture. If only they didn’t charge so much for it! 😂

[@fgarciaish]

​@@marvelousdecay the gpu memory is a game changer. I have an M2 Max laptop and run gpu based c4d simulations on it (cloth, pyro) and it runs laps around my threadripper + 4090 box. On the 4090 a heavy simulation runs out of memory after 30-60 frames. In the end I do end up sending the cached sims back to the windows box for lighting and rendering... since the 4090 is multiple times faster for that. That said, the RT cores in the M3 chip were a huge improvement when it comes to ray traced rendering, a few colleagues have mentioned... excited to see what the M4 brings, as I can see the gap narrowing with each iteration.

[@marvelousdecay]

Yeah for stuff like that the extra memory the GPU can use is awesome! I'm very much looking forward to what M4 will bring too! I just wish we didn't have to wait until 2025 to get it. Oh well... I can wait a few more months... 😬

[@vertigoz]

I wonder if AMD APUS could do something of the like with 8700g... All the benchmarks are geared towards CPUs, sadly.

[@vertigoz]

On reviews I couldn't find a single usage of AMD APU, don't know if there's no software, of the ROCm drivers aren't available for it, but it really puzzles me

[@solidgalaxy3339]

Hi Dimitris, I appreciate your knowledge and experience sharing. I have a question, am about to purchase a refurbished macbook pro max but hesitant on which one to go for, m1, m2 or m3. Of course the older models are cheaper, but when I checked on apple's website, they say that m3 chip now supports ray tracing. I would like to know, how significantly ahead is that compared to the m1/m2, let's say percentage wise. I am concerned about apps like 3d max/blender rendering. Thank you so much

[@marvelousdecay]

When it comes to 3D rendering the M3 (Max) is significantly faster than M1 and M2. The M3 Max for example is faster than the M2 Ultra. So if you're looking to get a new machine, aim for the m3 max. If you can wait a couple more months the M4 is just around the corner. I will personally wait for the M4. From what we can tell it's going to be a nice jump in performance so if you can afford to wait you'll be better off.

[@solidgalaxy3339]

@@marvelousdecay what do you think would be best: An M1 max, 32gpu, 96GB, 4TB Or M2 max, 38gpu, 64GB, 2TB Or M3 max, 40gpu, 48GB, 1TB

[@marvelousdecay]

In terms of raw speed the M3 Max is the better option of the two. My only issue with the setup you posted is the very little SSD space and the relatively low RAM. If you can bump the M3 Max to 64GB and 2TB you'll have a nice beefy setup. But if you gotta cut something go for the 64GB Ram and keep the 1TB SSD. Just keep in mind though that you'll have to carry around an external drive to help with storage. But it's a good enough compromise.

[@solidgalaxy3339]

@marvelousdecay I appreciate your response again. I might be able to upgrade after 6 months, but I need something to work with now and sell this once. So the above 3 listed were my only options.

[@cjadams7434]

As a M2 Ultra Mac studio owner.. its kinda sad what happened…apple shouldn't be applying iPhone economics of new every year big bumps.. this is crazy… Now if you were to “subscribe” to a machine with an update plan. or finance it with a rollover to a new machine.. that might be better.. but it would have to be also be available to the SMB market! - Right now i have an M2 ultra mac studio but using a PC with RTX 4090 for Octane render which btw works seamlessly now i hit render and the PC kicks off..you get 10 render nodes on octane! - It does its thing running headless in the corner and i don’t need to touch it

[@marvelousdecay]

That sounds like a good solution. I assume the PC is used for final rendering not interactive rendering as you're working on a scene. Is that correct?

[@cjadams7434]

@@marvelousdecay - well the M2 Ultra is no slouch… think 3070-3080 ish feel for lookdev stuff its just fine also with octane it leveraged your network nodes even for IPR so in a way my M2 has a 4090 in it for both lookdev and final frame. This is the way the octane folks designed it! - The IPR and FF renders BOTH use all GPUs no matter where they are.. I don’t even touch the PC

[@marvelousdecay]

That’s excellent that you can use your PC for both lookdev and final frame. Best of both worlds. I have to check what Redshift is capable of in that regard but I don’t think that’s possible.

[@cjadams7434]

@@marvelousdecay well for starters you will need a FULL priced seat of Redshift for each render node BOOOOOOOO! - octane gives you 10 render nodes with the entrprise sub for 30 bucks/mo. so frack redshift… - did it for a while and it sucked very clunky.. you eitehr use antiquated TeamRender setup or have to resort to something like Deadline. With octane you just flip on the networrk render setting in octane settings and then install the octane render node on each node box.. no plugins no cinema 4d no dcc nothing.. just octane node. its all handed via orbx… so totally seamless just hit render and it uses the network nodes. simple.

[@TerbrugZondolop]

Frankly I am saddened by this prospect. Imagine paying 4-5 k for a studio mac only to have to hsve a PC - high end - as well to render. I blame the developers for this as well. Most of my software is not arm optimised because they are lazy. So as a punishment I have to fork out money for a PC.

[@reallycome1]

Like you, I've been an Apple loyal customer for 20 years, BUT this year I moved on, to a dual Nvidia 4090 water-cooled PC. Once Nvidia releases the 5090 I will upgrade both 4090 cards. I came to the bitter conclusion that Apple will NEVER be able to compete with Nvidia when it comes to 3D workflow. By the time Apple will be able to beat a dual 4090 setup, Nvidia will fly to Pluto. P.S. I paid under £7.5k for my PC.

[@marvelousdecay]

Yeah it might come to that point for me too. Let's see... How do you find Windows? Have you adjusted to it or you're still missing stuff from MacOS?

[@reallycome1]

@@marvelousdecay I got used to Windows within a week and absolutely LOVE the dual 4090 setup. As a side note, I am still using my M1 MacBook for presentations as I love Keynote and also for emails when on the move, but 90% of my work is now on the PC. Best regards from London.

[@bradamor]

Love my Mac (just came from Windows) and can’t see myself ever going back, even though the price difference is large. But the more I get into machine learning and AI, the more I think I will just build a beast (second machine) that I can just update when required, where a MacBook Pro does not give you that option.

[@regis_red]

I’m not sure the problem is hardware related only. Apple does not have anything like CUDA or OptiX. Maybe the answer is on the Metal side?

[@marvelousdecay]

Apple has finally introduced hardware ray tracing with the M3 series and hopefully it’s nicely implemented on the API side too. Apple seems to be working closely with developers for software like Blender so hopefully the API and hardware will keep improving based on the requirements of the developers. Let’s see how it will turn out but I think from the M4 onwards, is the point where things will start getting interesting…. Here’s hoping!

[@regis_red]

@@marvelousdecay Let’s hope!

[@captureinsidethesound]

Programers simply stick with what they are familiar with and that's NVIDIAs architecture. AMD would obliterate NVIDIA if the Blender community of programmers actually programed around the GCN/RDNA architecture due its efficiency with any low-level API. This is evident with any game developed on a DirectX 12 Engine like Unreal Engine 5. NVIDIA is well aware that they will likely get to run over by AMD and Apple with futher render applications. Hardware Ray Tracing is for real-time gaming. Typcically, Path Tracing is used only for rendering CGI with photorealistic results. But, now software Path Tracing like Lumen have nearly covered the gap due to clever programming techniques while also being real-time. Apple and AMD are focused on the majority, not the select few sitting at studios like ILM. Thats not mentioning that the "cinematic look" isn't entirely based on realism so Twinmotion and UE5 are very attractive at this point because of what it can do in real-time. The amount of time and moeny spent on re-doing a render just for slight changes is getting old. Having a mutiple iPads or iPhones as a cameras veiwport while also being able render a quick semi-realstic 3D composite with the same stylised lighting that the camera sensor is seeing is a dream come true for directors and VFX teams. Especially, if they can also do it within the same color space as the camera. Actually, we are already kind of doing that with Nomad Sculpt for iPad and Samsung tablets. Nomad Sculpt has HDRI lighting, tone mapping, curves and color grading in real-time. Take a quick HDRI and 3D scan of the scene with your iPhone, put it in Nomad Sculpt, line the tablet with the same composition as the camera and you can get a very convincing result of what a 3D composite will look like in the scene. Yeah, director's dream of that.

[@BubbaSatori]

No, the M4 won't close the gap to Nvidia. It also won't close the gap to 96 core Threadripper Pros, either. Unless it is the fabled M4 Extreme. I don't know that it matters to those who are wedded to the ecosystem. A big improvement with the M4s without matching PC or Linux workstations should be sufficient for them.

[@marvelousdecay]

For me the bigger issue is having to spend an incredible amount of money for performance a PC half the price can get. If they at least didn't charge so much for SSD and RAM upgrades it wouldn't be this bad. If they somehow fixed that part I wouldn't mind getting a Mac Studio that doesn't perform as well as the competition.

[@cjadams7434]

@@marvelousdecay i just got a standard PC from microcenter shoved a new psu and a 40i90 in it.. now my mac renders hapily with octane

[@TamasKiss-yk4st]

@marvelousdecay but their RAM upgrades are only unfarly expensive, if you compare it with the bad way.. i mean even the SSD has higher initial price and also higher upgrade price.. and just to reach the M3 Max 400GB/s transfer speed, you need a laptop motherboard with 8 channel DDR5 and a PCIe 8.0 x16 slot for the GPU, and that motherboard simply doesn't exists, so you compare the HDD with SSD in price here. They have significantly different transfer speeds.

[@GlobalWave1]

I’m almost certain there will be an M4 extreme in the Mac Pro. It will be mighty impressive in many tasks. It won’t match a 96 core threadripper pro but that thing runs horrible in many programs as most software isn’t made for such a beast. Not to mention the thermal and energy that thing uses. I’d love to see the GPU side on an extreme. If they could fix the scaling issue that would greatly help. I don’t think it’ll reach a 5090 card but it might trade blows in certain tasks.

[@ed61730]

No, no it wont. and this is someone who used a macbook pro for cinema 4d

[@akin242002]

Excellent video! The M chip series has been catching up to Nvidia bit by bit. Nvidia RTX 5080/5090 will still stay ahead of Apple M4 GPUs, but Nvidia is seeing Apple in their rear-view mirror.

[@SpaceChimes]

I watched some precious videos on your channel when I was choosing between an m2 ultra or a PC with a 4090. I went for the PC. The reason is upgradability. Let's say the m4 extreme is out and it beats a 5090. If I bought a Mac, I would need to sell the m2 ultra and buy a full machine for at least a 4000 Euros price difference. But since I bought the PC, I will just plug in the 5090 on pair with the 4090 and beat the m4 extreme for less than 2000 Euros. (I did spec the PC for future multiple beefy GPUs)

[@marvelousdecay]

Absolutely. The upgradeability of a PC cannot be beat. That was the role of the Mac Pro back in the day, but this architecture is not making things easy. You just cannot grab a new card and add it to your system. I’m hoping that at some point the Mac Pro will be able to offer that flexibility again, but for the near future we’ll be stuck with whatever the SoC can offer.

[@cjadams7434]

@@marvelousdecay thats why i use the mac as the dcc and front end and a bog standard PC with good gpu i can upgrade.. think of it like a larger Egpu… LOL. best of both worlds!

[@TamasKiss-yk4st]

But don't forget the cost of that upgradeability.. the slot where you put the 4090 and 5090 is a PCIe 4.0 x16 slot (32GB/s transfer speed), and even the M2 Uktra had 800GB/s transfer speed between the CPU and GPU, that is 25x faster speed.. similar like to compare a 150MB/s HDD with a 3750MB/s SSD.. and i guess you don't prefer the slower HDD just because it has some advantage over the SSD if you ignore the transfer speed.. i mean it's not enough just calculate more data, if you can't send to the destination without a delay, than the other method can still show the result faster on the screen (like the calc speed is 1 frame daley on the slower GPU, but the stronger GPU even if calculate the result in time, it's need 2 frame to send it to the destination, than the 1 frame delay is faster)

[@kerotomas1]

Integrated crap can never ever beat a high end desktop of the same generation, not even close - with that said the apple chip will handle anything but really gpu heavy titles ( the desktop 4090 - not the nerfed travesty nvidia selling in laptops - is infinitely faster than even the M3 Max)

[@occasus7964]

The M series will never beat the recent RTX cards. It just won't happen

[@petehboy2]

Do you think 3d rendering will come close to nvidia?

[@ronmiller171]

This is BS! The M4 includes gpu cores, but it is NOT a GPU competitor to NVIDIA!

[@davelidster2280]

Apple will never surpass Nvidia - that's just not what they do as a brand. Apple is machine ware that's beautifully crafted and insanely easy to use. It's reliable mediocrity. Apple will find their niche though very soon. But it will still be 10% behind cutting edge.

[@SereneBobcat]

For 3D artist the M line of Mac are really disappointing. Super expensive for terrible performance. In the context of 3D work. I think these are the worst Macs ever built.

[@marvelousdecay]

Yeah the price to performance ratio is definitely off. If they managed to fix that part, then it would be fair but currently it feels like robbery when speccing out a higher end Mac

[@chidorirasenganz]

I think the M4 generation will handily surpass Nvidia aside from the 50 series. The hypothetical performance of the M3 Ultra (~7k) would be beyond anything but the desktop 4090 in blender and the M3 Extreme would be around 14k. Considering we should see at least 20% raw performance increase for M4, I see the 40 series being left behind

[@TamasKiss-yk4st]

Don't forget even the Ultra had only a 300W power supply (on the full system not on the GPU alone..), and M3 Max had 56W limit on GPU, so if you just checking the performance/W they are already better, they just refuse to use 600W on one part. If M3 Ultra release (which won't because of the missing interconnect bridge), that reach nearly the 4090 performance with just half or even third of the power consumption. Until they "just" 300W on the chip, they will nit take away the crown of the 1000+W machines for a while, but they just use about the same amount of power under heavy load like the others in idle mode.. (like M3 Max had 96W power supply, which can maintain the usage for weeks, so the machine itself never use more than that, but an average 1000W setup has about 80W idle power consumption.. which is not far from the 96W what is the max power consumption on the Apple side..)

[@chidorirasenganz]

@@TamasKiss-yk4st Considering that each generation roughly doubles in performance (in Blender) I don’t think it will take very long. Also signs point to the next Ultra likely being a dedicated SoC design instead of 2 Maxs. Just like the M3 Max

[@GlobalWave1]

Well they will most likely skip the M3 from here on out. For many reasons but mainly so TSMC and Apple will go with the most reasonably new 3nm chip. So expect the M4 ultra will most likely be a single chip and if they have an extreme hopefully they can fix the scaling issues more. That would most likely be in a Mac Pro though. I would just love to see the M4 laptop. I think they should add 10 more GPU cores and that would be a great speck bump.

[@tbud3734]

A company like apple can never compete with nvidia in 3d rendering, fanboys could buy 50000$ M4 extreme mac for 3d rendering but professionals are not fools if they understand same performance can be achieved in 2000$ 5090.

[@titianobsidian6549]

I would like to go back to mac's but apple make it so difficult. It crazy to spend so much on a mac that date so quickly. It's not possible to upgrade the gpu after 3 years to make the machine still relivant. So if you spec out a studio costing 6000 to 8000 grand then 4 years later it's dated.

[@marvelousdecay]

Yeah that's true. It's one of the reasons I didn't go with the first versions of the Mseries chips (M1, M2, M3) since things are still advancing pretty fast. Hopefully the new Mac Pro will have upgradeable graphics... Here's hoping..

[@otdosa]

ok they are getting closer to nvidia - with the ULTRA - which is NOT cheap. :| so it doesn't help tbh. just like the dude in the video says.

[@alexanderzhulin3528]

27k in CB2024 is a laptop result. Desktop gets 35k.

[@Yoshua-Robinson]

The answer is easy, 3D market or Mac Pro sales accounts for less than 0.3% of apple’s revenue. The whole Mac business accounts for about 6% apple’s revenue. Where most of that are MacBooks and iMacs. Why would they invest more resources in something it brings them little money compared to iPhones, iPads, MacBooks, iMacs, Mac Minis, Apple TV, Apple Watch AirPods and Online Services? For NVidia on the other hand fast Chips are their core business and to be always in front of Apple in the speed race is crucial for their existence. BTW those Mac Pros are built in the US (Austin, TX) not China. So you cannot compare the production costs of a PC made out of plastic in China with those high quality materials used in Mac Pros. Are two different worlds and different customer based. No Apple will never sell Mac Pros for half the price is not in their business strategy, same way Ferraris will never be available for the same price as a low end Mercedes or BMW even if those ones are even faster. If you want a fast and cheap machine buy a PC if you want an elite machine with high quality components, superb ecosystem and an amazing OS buy a Mac Pro. End of story.

[@occasus7964]

Lmao "superb ecosystem". Nothing about the Mac pro is high-end, except the aluminum case.

[@3dduff]

THANK YOU! Someone finaly talking about the complete disconnect that the Mac hardware at its price point when compared to the PC for 3d animation and rendering. I have been a life long Mac guy, but about 10 years ago I accepted that I can do more and faster 3d animation on a PC. But this is not just a 3D issue. Almost every pro-market production artist I know works on a PC because the Mac no longer has ANY competitive edge. I want Apple and the Mac to succeed. There are situations where artist will accept a slower system for the dependability and MacOS, but Apples pricing just knocks them out of the conversation.

[@marvelousdecay]

Yeah unfortunately the pricing is out of hand. As you mentioned already I wouldn’t mind having a machine that’s not great at rendering but having to pay 8 or 10k for that is just crazy.

[@kenwong5807]

hope mac studio Cancel M3 Ultra， upgrade to m4 this year

[@mbertufpv]

Dream on

[@thewaliiiii]

Easy, get a PC