Will China pull ahead with battery technology? | Transforming Business

When salt-powered e-cars recently rolled off the production lines in China, it hit the headlines. Not only because sodium makes up one of our favorite table condiments, but also because, so far, no electric vehicle has been able to run without lithium - an element that is difficult to extract and pretty expensive. So what are the pros and cons of the new sodium-ion battery technology? How big is the market? Why is China so far ahead in sodium battery technology? And what role do European companies like Northvolt and Altris play?
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
0:42 The role of lithium in battery production
1:28 Sodium-ion batteries come into play
2:28 Chinese CATL produces the new batteries
3:24 Impact for lithium producers in Latin America
4:24 How sodium-ion batteries are produced
5:28 The European battery manufacturer Northvolt
6:19 Why is China so far ahead?
7:33 Booming market for lithium-ion batteries
8:38 Conclusion
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#Transforming Business #sodiumbatteries #batterytechnology

[@maladaptedmalarkey]

The future of sodium is in grid and home. The future of lithium is in higher performance transportation. There is plenty of room for both to develop at a robust pace over the next few decades.

[@JustB3NJI]

And it's bestr to have a mix of tech. being ep on just 1 thing, for anything, is not ideal.

[@Superpooper-2020]

We inddians w0uld those sodiuk battries because we d0nt have en0ugh f00d here. 0ur c0untry ranks 111th 0ut 0f 125 c0untries in w0rld hunger index we need f00d n0t battries.

[@deathpunch3917]

​@@Superpooper-2020Yeah , you need food but Chinese don't

[@NoobNoob1986]

This is the correct answer

[@duyataksis5210]

China will dominate both.

[@lwwells]

“Pull ahead”? Lmao. Germany hasn’t even entered the race. 😅

[@temidayoosun6746]

They badly need a feel good factor.

[@sirati9770]

i think they mean the EU

[@lwwells]

@@sirati9770 Noway has started. But yes.

[@toyotaprius79]

"Diesel good"

[@toyotaprius79]

​@@sirati9770held captive by petty capitalist politics

[@Dono-da-Blaze]

"Why is China so far ahead?" China is not putting billions in wars and genocides. They are working hard for decades.

[@ziedyacoub8488]

well said

[@metamind411]

If a country on its border it has good relations with would be invaded it would spend trillions on war and it would still be ahead. It's not militarism that's pulling the EU back, the EU is not militarized

[@MissMan666]

this is one sector. It would be easy mention many much more important sectors where the EU is far ahead of China. Chip manufacturing etc, just to name one, China is not even close to EU in terms of being able to manufacturer advanced chips, in fact zero % of the worlds advanced chips come from china.

[@solomon-iy8km]

Chinese always start from zero to hero.

[@rickoffee]

@MissMan666: EU is far ahead China in chip **TOOL** manufacturing not necessarily in the processes for chip manufacturing.

[@user-rh2vc3ny9s]

I really appreciating hard working Chinese people

[@Pleezath]

Nordic people where first though

[@Snipe_the_Hype]

😂

[@ziedyacoub8488]

China always prevails in the end .

[@user-rh2vc3ny9s]

@@Pleezath Nordic people became violent because of money problem 😂

[@A.L.765]

Being first doesn't really matter as much as what you do with it. Business history is filled with tons of examples that illustrate that. Xerox was first in many technologies but it was Apple that made it work. Kodak was the first to develop digital cameras but it was Canon and others that made it work.@@Pleezath

[@polysporin8332]

Sodium batteries advantage in the cold ❄️. Up to -30C. Without losing charge like lithium.

[@aligenc659]

They can also be charged faster.

[@Superpooper-2020]

Maj0rity 0f us Inddians can't even aff0rd 2 meals a day, d0nt have access t0 t0ilet and clean drinking watter

[@nannon2934]

​@@Superpooper-2020 world know that

[@TanVai]

@@nannon2934

[@toyotaprius79]

That doesn't even explain the tip of the ice berg. Better temp durability, flexibility, storage longevity and cycle life

[@almdrs]

China is ahead in LFP, lithum ion and now in sodium batteries. I think I can see a pattern.

[@DalHrusk]

Western countries are ahead in gender

[@HermanWillems]

All that technology is invented in the West though. We just have a difficult environment to produce products cheap because of the many rules we have in the west. China has less rules, this you also see at all the nature being destroyed and rivers being extremely polluted. So there is no level playing field now.

[@luismvg11]

​@@DalHruskwhich is a good thing. One is a social problem one is. Technologal problem . Totally different

[@luismvg11]

​@@HermanWillemsthey have less rules but my experience in working in China mean something is that the more they develop as a country the more they can afford to put more environmental rulea. That's why nowadays theor skies looks blue for the most part instead of grey like 10 years ago

[@DalHrusk]

@@luismvg11 You are wrong. Both is social problem. What a society emphasizes and invests in, it will also get. Western countries are solving made-up problems while losing their technological superiority. Solving made-up problems in general is also a major source of bureaucratic and economic burden for R&D and manufacturing.

[@TAL142]

Nobody is stopping Europe from competition. China is not the one yelled at UK to tell them to stop using Huawei 5g. You are free to compete if you wanted. There are plenty of lithium around. Just that the Lithium technology is more mature while sodium and other are still being tested. You can come up with 10,000 possible alternatives but you have to be able to commercialize them. And in the new technology, all countries are starting at the same point. There are no mature technology Europe or US control the patents. Fair competition is not something US and Europe like.

[@HermanWillems]

LFP is literally invented in USA. Regular Lithium-Ion batteries also invented in USA. Most technology in the battery space is invented in the west. Not in China.

[@100c0c]

None of the battery chemistries used today are new. They are at least 20 years old. Invented mostly in Japan and USA.

[@TAL142]

@@HermanWillems Why does that matter. Solid fuel rocket was invented in China. So was gunpowder. I don't see other people stop using them. Just because someone came up with the concept of Lithium ion batteries doesn't mean he has the rights to all forthcoming patents on the commercial uses of new batteries. If you want to talk about real heist... In 1848, Britain embarked on the biggest botanical heist in history, as well as one of the biggest thefts of intellectual property to date: stealing Chinese tea plants, as well as Chinese tea-processing expertise, in order to create a tea industry in India.

[@TAL142]

@@HermanWillems Why does this even matter. China discovered gunpowder and invented solid fuel rockets. I don't see anybody stop using them. Many inventions are based on old invention from the past. But just because someone had the concept, this has nothing to do with the new patents. This is far cry from Britain embarked on the biggest botanical heist in history, as well as one of the biggest thefts of intellectual property to date: stealing Chinese tea plants, as well as Chinese tea-processing expertise, in order to create a tea industry in India in 1848. Can someone claim cars are from SE Asia 4 wheels carts they invented centuries ago because they both have 4 wheels.

[@DukeLM]

​@@HermanWillemsso was bsing

[@samdam00]

In recent times i see DW news is so obsessed with china somebody is really getting jealous 😄

[@huckleberryfinn6578]

China is competing with Germany in many industries. That's why there are many reports on China.

[@mingouczjcz3800]

When losing the competitions, they either try to nastily smear or play tricks against its counterparts. When winning the competitions, they pose as superior race.

[@siamcharm7904]

its state reporting as opposed to news.

[@sihksahmir5635]

like WION and FIRSTPOT

[@petergreen5337]

❤exactly

[@cetocoquinto4704]

The big problem with this is that europe is still dreaming while china is now selling lifepo4 batteries on people who DIY here in south east asia..especially on solar storage applications. Dont know how europe could catch.

[@moocorp4574]

My Tesla built in Berlin has Lithium Iron Phosphate, battery is from China though.

[@maximusasauluk7359]

It's because Europe functions as a free market economy, China directs investiments as it sees fit. Until recently anyway. Europe is now pushing the markets towards renewable technology and things like semiconductors. There are benefits of having an authoritarian government that knows well where to invest, such as the case of China and battery tech, although that's not always the case, their real estate market did collapse in the end.

[@toyotaprius79]

Reckless regulations here in Europe also impede so much potential in DIY and community scale microgeneration

[@Tabula_Rasa1]

@@maximusasauluk7359 The housing market has more to do with low interest rate and an industry that is easy to do unlike high end tech. Dont think the govt was pushing for Real Estate. They even mentioned that housing is for the living and not for speculation. You cant stop greed and that is why those 2 RE giants wont be getting a bail out. Their 5 years plan since Mao has been industrialization, technology and food.

[@antaracallupecristianisrae1956]

​@@maximusasauluk7359i heard that china's collapse since 90's keep dreaming bandera gordon chang bot 😂

[@khunden]

are you people high? they're already ahead of everyone

[@maximusasauluk7359]

That is true, however what is also true is that China relies much on the West for high tech components that they require for various things including to research this tech, because it can't achieve the same technological prowess alone. All this to say that the best engineers and innovators are still in the West, China just started pouring money into this sooner, I have no doubt the West can catch up, if anything it will be to earn profit on it because this market will grow massively.

[@luting3]

I have many examples that China caught up. Do you have an example that western caught up something China leads? Find something more innovative, that is the chance.

[@TuhunluunBionoid]

@@maximusasauluk7359keep believing what you wrote. 😂 I like west, but the arrogance from you guys sometimes is just suffocating .

[@juvezhang1715]

​@@TuhunluunBionoidChina is full of talented scientist....no one can compete now ...and future

[@Broskisnowski]

@@maximusasauluk7359the West places several embargoes and sanctions on China to prevent IP theft so they don’t quite depend on the West.

[@sepilokfui]

the most crucial point in the whole reporting is "but we can not get any figures..." that shows how good your reporting 🎉

[@fsckool6894]

well you gotto pay for that kinda journalism

[@taiwanmark]

Yea, that's pretty poor

[@tangenquattro]

What are you suggesting? Put force on the Chinese government or the manufacturer, to give them access to information on how many cars with sodium batteries are out there? There is no such thing as free information, certainly when it comes to the Chinese

[@ceridangauv3955]

it's very difficult to get info out of china these days.

[@martinmey6237]

​@ceridangauv3955 How reliable are the information put out by the CCP? There are no such things as independent sources in China.

[@Brewed-mi1ue]

The short answer is, yes.

[@JigilJigil]

NO.

[@jibinjohn8871]

Long answer is, yes😂

[@Brewed-mi1ue]

@@jibinjohn8871 😂😂😂😂💯

[@Come_to_light119]

It's hard work that keeps you ahead.

[@chillydawgg4354]

And stealing other people's ideas & copying them

[@Come_to_light119]

😂​@@chillydawgg4354

[@damianodonnell5844]

@@chillydawgg4354 your just mad that china actually did somehting

[@user-yj8zw7hk6f]

@@damianodonnell5844 he is telling us what he truly believes in cause he is doing exactly that.

[@fancyIOP]

There’s nothing like talking about Chinese technologies but interviewing Europeans to give feedback about it. Typical European documentaries.

[@wsmithe2209]

What do you expect from them? Not surprisingly.

[@7_years_and_]

Can't blame them because Chinese won't talk to foreign media without government approval that will never happen .

[@sulblazer]

@@7_years_and_While this may be true, it’d be nice if the video mentioned the difficulties in retrieving credible information from Chinese battery producers.

[@wsmithe2209]

Repeat lies a thousand times, it will become a true story. This is typical western media.

[@Anonymous------]

​@@7_years_and_ Chinese don't talk to foreign lying media, period.

[@netroy]

The reporter is conflating a lot between "Sodium" and "Salt", that's like using "Water" and "Hydrogen" interchangeably. Besides that, thanks for reporting on this. We really need a global push to build much bigger grid-storage, and Sodium-ion can definitely help quite a lot.

[@wloonie]

Because we usually get hydrogen from water and sodium from salt. Not precise, of course, but understandable.

[@musafawundu6718]

Much of the general public will not understand the nuances of what salt is in terms of being in solid state a compound of a cation a positively charged atom and a negatively charged one. Table salt or sodium chloride is generically taken to be as salt.

[@madcow3417]

I put together a power tool battery with sodium ion cells. The lower voltage per cell makes them not drop-in replacements. They can't discharge as fast as lithium ion, so high current applications (draining a battery in 30 min. or less) are a bad fit. Electric cars aren't great: sure you expect the battery to last multiple hours of driving, but normal accelerations are short-term high current uses. Home energy, where a large battery is supposed to slowly drain over 24 hours or so, would be my choice for this chemistry.

[@rhoharane]

That was just my thought. Heavier, cheaper batteries would be great for large, stationary applications. And the more it's able to fulfill those needs, the more lithium will be available for the other things that really need it, at least until they find better solutions.

[@robinhood4640]

I agree with both of you, it's seems to be a no brainer to me. Why are we using high energy density materials, which are hard to extract in the needed amounts, for applications that can work perfectly with more abundant materials.

[@Ryan-ff2db]

This is why they will have limited use in these fields. CATL predicts that sodium-ion will only reach 18 percent of the passenger EV market. Mostly in small city cars, shuttles, that sort of thing. I can't imagine much penetration in the power tool market if any. It's stationary storage like grid scale BESS systems and home storage where these batteries will shine. Weight has no meaning in theses markets and voltage drop-off is much easier to control with large systems.

[@theshadowoftruth7561]

But what if you add Supercapacitors to handle the short time high current demands needed to accelerate.

[@andersgrassman6583]

@@theshadowoftruth7561 Or a mix of the two types? The lithium type used as analoguous to "turbo charge" in combustion engines?

[@datianlongan5567]

Car companies are all focusing on longer range & faster charging Lithium battery that priced average EV out of the reach of many people. Sodium battery should fill the gap for a huge market of working class folks who only need

[@MrGanbat84]

Thanks China bringing us into Eco World and giving us high quality cars.

[@FunnyPhobos93]

Look at their Emissions Statistics and the image of a „Eco World“ Nation crumbles quickly.

[@JoeyBlogs007]

The sodium can be taken from all kinds of places, including desalination plants.

[@eish3291]

Sodium is more abundant anywhere on the planet, so no expensive mining costs hence lower production cost meaning more affordable cars to the public.

[@theworddoner]

Another advantage that sodium batteries have over lithium batteries is that they’re more Weather resistant. While they may have overall less charge than lithium, they actually hold their charge in cold weather and are less volatile in warm weathers. This is incredibly important for colder countries as well as incredibly warm countries. Lithium loses a third of its charge in colder temperatures and is more fire prone than salt batteries.

[@anthonywanjala558]

What about the fire hazards

[@chasx7062]

@@anthonywanjala558better !!! Sodium batteries are heavier

[@Tabula_Rasa1]

@@anthonywanjala558 They are safer. It seems to be better than Lithium in almost everything except energy capacity. People like to run the EV for weeeeeeeks without charging. lol

[@ceridangauv3955]

yep and they charge and discharge twice a fast i think. Imagine charging your car in 5 mins.

[@anthonywanjala558]

@@Tabula_Rasa1 then can be employed on aircrafts to replace the nickel cadmium and lead acid batteries.Their is a bright future ahead...

[@user-kz6xj8qr8d]

what a rambling report

[@thomasgade226]

sound is choppy in my player

[@malcolmstevens2838]

You need a better player​@@thomasgade226

[@visions.of.excess]

yeah they way they cut up the few soundbites they had was really insulting

[@Hereford1642]

Arts graduates reporting on Science.

[@vrealzhou]

Sodium batteries are already mass replacing the lead acid batteries in two wheels vehicles that doesn’t need extreme performance and mostly used in the cities. There are already DIY shops can replace the old lead acid batteries to sodium batteries on your old electric scooters. Those scooters were designed for using lead acid batteries which has less energy density compared to sodium batteries so they have enough room to install. And the new batteries can provide longer life, can be discharged to 0%, and perform better in the cold weather.

[@polyteky]

where can we buy those or is it only available in China ?

[@vrealzhou]

@@polyteky only in China right now. I don’t think it will be possible in EU because the law requires bike licenses to ride those e-bikes but in China it doesn’t required.

[@benzo1d]

DW News likes to talk about China. Why don't you share more news on Germany? I would love to hear more about Germany 😊

[@FunnyPhobos93]

If you watch a lot of stuff about China, KZbin will recommend it to you. Make the effort to see what DW says about Germany and you will find it. Laziness will not yield the answers you are looking for..

[@masterchinese28]

Sodium probably makes more sense for large storage, like on power grids, due to it's heavier weight and larger volume. The ability to recharge more times without losing capacity is also a plus for this type of application. Over time, the tech will improve and then make it into smaller devices.

[@Clark-Mills]

WRT: Batteries, EVs, solar (future energy): China seems to have a more sane and cohesive big-picture structure. I'm from the West and mostly I see the market just doing style changes while really sitting on our hands in the R&D segment. (Apple, SpaceX & Tesla are exceptions).

[@blackknight4996]

Apple just abandoned EV.. space X test failed. The West middle name is fail.

[@Clark-Mills]

@@blackknight4996Just you and me here... ;) Apple was very late to the party and with Lucid sitting where Apple wants to land and the saturation of the high end (luxury/expensive) EV market Apple really had no chance to enter. A wise move ultimately. Starship did well, it's a massive test assembly and so long as they're advancing they should do fine.

[@harriemeeuwis978]

It's simple. What will be the price of a sodium battery compared to a lithium battery? And what the experts forgot to mention in the storage possibilities is houses and appartment buildings. Cheap storage possibilities will revolutionize household energy.

[@Anonymous------]

Solar panels and sodium batteries will be the future for homes.

[@HermanWillems]

Yes LFP now dominates Home Storage batteries. But it's all about the price per kWh and the longevity. If that goes below that of LFP then it will take over. You just need also a bit more space in your house.

[@Anonymous------]

@@HermanWillems Batteries should be placed outside the home, in a secured metal shack in the backyard if there's one.

[@ZweiZwolf]

@@Anonymous------ Doesn't need to be metal - cinder block would be my choice.

[@Anonymous------]

@@ZweiZwolf Now I think concrete blocks are better material for storing any battery that can burn on its own.

[@user-qg6du1ru4w]

Two months later, I was working as a sodium ion battery engineer in a Chinese company called Zonergy. I think sodium ion batteries first replaced lead-acid batteries in the market, that is, low-speed vehicles and large-scale energy storage. It can complement the advantages of lithium ion batteries.

[@rickagfoster]

No, just today’s lithium reserves of 98m tons is enough for 7 billion BEVs. New reserves cropping up all the time. Yes, lithium will “cut it” but yes sodium is much cheaper and far easier to get.

[@pezza39817]

The price of lithium has crashed.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

It had been unreasonably high and is returning to normal.

[@gcvrsa]

Sodium-ion batteries with Prussian Blue (ferric ferrocyanide) have relatively high energy density, and are much cheaper and easier to manufacture than lithium-ion batteries, plus the are much safer to use than lithium-ion batteries, but they have an overwhelming advantage in recharge cycles, and can go 10,000 or more discharge/recharge cycles, where lithium-ion batteries can only withstand a few hundred. There is no doubt that lithium-ion batteries will be the preferred option where energy density and weight are the biggest concerns, but the fact is that the cost of lithium-ion batteries and their relative danger is going to mean that in very short order, most consumer applications and most heavy industrial applications will be using sodium-ion technology, because it is simply much more cost effective. Most people would be willing to have a thicker cell phone if it meant that the battery will last more than 1-2 years at most.

[@HermanWillems]

I agree, they will live alongside each other. Sodium is better for Stationary batteries. And Lithium for portable.

[@StiltFactory]

Thanks for this story, I wasn't aware of this technology. Cars and portable energy are all the rage right now, but what about a story on vandium flow technology and the applications for homes and whole towns? It seems promising.

[@danm94]

Having a guy from a lithium company talking how they need to protect lithium production and giving his ideas over sodium batteries is kind of sus in the first place, lol. This is on par with the Ericsson engineer who said that there are physical limits to wireless radio transmission at the beginning of the 2000s when the idea of 4G appeared and now we already have 5G on our phones and some already work on 6G.

[@andersgrassman6583]

I think you misinterpreted him. I was involved in Ericssons introduction of 3G to network operators. Ericsson was very visionary. But there are always aspects of different technologies. Such as density of celltowers for different frequencies. Which has implications - both positive and negative, also depending on the setting.

[@Broskisnowski]

Bro is fine with massive ecological damage lithium mining and processing does, he is totally a corporate goblin

[@ChristopheDD]

We need cheap, small and light car with removable batteries to charge at home. Chinese understood it better than European companies.

[@Charvak-Atheist]

Sodium ion battery is best for Stationary Grid Scale storage. BTW, Stationary energy storage market is much bigger than EV battery market.

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

yes and no. a household would need 5kWh...10kWh storage. a car needs 80kWh storage.

[@sydulparvej9745]

@@stefanweilhartner4415 in this world there are more houses than cars.

[@markojotic]

Please, it's not salt.

[@user-gl7xm3kf3y]

Salt and sodium are two different things.

[@SOMTRUCK480]

Germany auto manufacturers have been in recently years subservient to with China and they forgot about their own destination 😂😂😂

[@miroslavstevic2036]

Nobody mentioned safety issues and flammability of Li batteries. I am confident that safety and lower cost will eventually turn the tide in favor of Natrium.

[@jetli740]

that been solve already, iit the early battery that caught fire

[@miroslavstevic2036]

@@jetli740 Solved? Last year, 17 people in New York died from lithium-ion battery fires, the fire department confirmed.

[@stefenleung]

Just by the impact to the environment on refinery lithium I'd prefer to use Sodium battery, in case the technology of the sodium battery can afford a full day use before recharge.

[@dr.saritgreendas3105]

Lovely...I have been waiting for this last 5 years

[@gimmins]

There are already couple of companies that used sodium batteries for home. I’ve been following sodium ion batteries for months and what I am noticing is that many of them just went silent. Lower density is less of a problem if you plan to keep it in one place, like at home. Size and weight is also not an issue since home batteries can be big and don’t need to be moved. Moreover, sodium batteries are not flammable, so this is the PERFECT application. I just don’t know why all the companies that were trying to do this went silent

[@phillyphil1513]

re: "what I am noticing is that many of them just went silent. *crickets* re: "I just don’t know why all the companies that were trying to do this went silent. A: because they recognize (same as the Crypto scam) that the JIG IS UP...!!!

[@martinmey6237]

Maybe they found a break through and just waiting for a surprise announcement. Why let the Chinese know what's new and improved? So they can hack and steal? Who knows, maybe it's nothing. All new innovations are still coming from the West.

[@polyteky]

can you share the names of those companies

[@JoeyBlogs007]

Sodium can also be used for road transport power, once supercharging becomes ubiquitous and thus range becomes less important. If you have supercharging every 50km to 100km, sodium will perform fine.

[@andersgrassman6583]

You can have sections of highways that charge vehicles. It can be done inductively / "wireless".

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

@@andersgrassman6583 far too expensive. really.

[@jonpetter8921]

Europe with its innovation heritage could compete with any nations if they have the policy will. They just need to work together.

[@AB-fi5jt]

Vassal states don’t have any chance to compete.

[@waichungsham1578]

if thats true you would be dominating the battery industry.but

[@temidayoosun6746]

Am sorry you can't compete .. you have chosen to be a US vassal, there is no competition without sovereignty.

[@jonpetter8921]

@@AB-fi5jt You meant the most prosperous continent on earth ? Basically #1 when t comes to Human Developing Index.

[@jonpetter8921]

@@temidayoosun6746 Hi kid. EU/Europe is the most prosperous, safest region in the world ? First in Human Development Index, the best health care, best public infrastructure, highest qulaity of living. The US is far behind in comparison. China and India further behind.

[@footsorebird0365]

This seems like a very dis-genuine report. You constantly miss referred to them as salt batteries, when they are sodium ion. Very different. Molten salt batteries are their own invention and very different from these. And you didn’t even mention the Indian sodium ion battery producers.

[@lluow]

I know right? I don’t understand the obsession of China from the west. They never look at India’s achievements in green energy and EV development. Not a single report on it. Such a bias. 😢

[@arunrajap]

One doubt, are we getting sodium ions from sodium bicarbonate? Or is there any better source?

[@amunra5330]

Yes, they will pull ahead.

[@Tini_Scrapitti]

Battery technology development is astonishing, but I believe a crucial aspect that must be factored into this field is also the entire environmental life-cycle impact.

[@Funktastico]

battery technology development has been abysmal for the last half century

[@manjeetkolte8601]

They're recyclable so the environmental damage would be only done once compared to fossil fuel extraction.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

Sodium batteries are easier to recycle than lithium batteries.

[@vygasvid]

Thank you nice reporting, would be nice to see regular updates on the battery development. Please also include information about the state of solid electrolyte batteries and lithium-sulfur batteries.

[@johnslugger]

*The Problem is Sodium Ion only have half the range 100KW per KG.*

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

165Wh/kg (university bayreuth, germany). the first EVs with LFP had 160Wh/kg

[@johnslugger]

@@stefanweilhartner4415 *160Wh/kg is an IN THE LAB rating but not in real life. It's more like 100Wh/Kg. I purchased 20 Na/Ion batteries from China and did discharge testing on them and they came in at 100Wh/Kg peak. Also a Tesla battery does 260Wh/Kg so it is just not good enough for consumers with RANGE ANXIETY. I think it will take way more work than you think. I am also very impressed with the new Carbon/Cell lead acid battery that only uses Carbon felt sheets doped with active lead chemicals! They only weight 15% of a tradition LEAD/ACID battery and have 400% longer life and 600% longer run time and can be 100% discharged without harm. A 190AH auto sized battery only contains 14 oz. of lead total and do 280Wh/Kg for over 12,000 cycles and are easily rebuilt in a few hours for a few bucks to work like new. A Lead-Acid battery WITHOUT the 130 year old lead-grid design could be the future. Lead chemisty only requires a conductive surface and a very tiny amount of actual lead metal if re-designed correctly. Also you must know it's the lead grids that fail 99% of the time. Answer: Get rid of those heavy grids!!!*

[@NirvanaFan5000]

sodium may be a better solution for stationary energy storage, where weight doesn't really matter.

[@billykulim5202]

lithium still has the largest power, so big kw engine car still need lithium, sodium is for small home car

[@yvan2563]

I would have liked to see LiFePO4 batteries in all those comparisons, not just lithium-ion vs sodium. Lithium-ion: high-power, sports cars and trucks. LiFePO4: regular power, small cars. Sodium-ion: home power storage.

[@bankaitensazangetsu6391]

China is going absolutely crazy these days ! They're developing new things over and over

[@lokesh303101]

Sodium-Ion Batteries are for Large Scale Applications like Power Backup for Microgrids.

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

it will be standard in home batteries in a few years together with solar power.

[@ZweiZwolf]

Sodium will be for every application that is more about price than absolute performance.

[@gpsfinancial6988]

LFP batteries do not require cobalt or nickel to work.

[@TomTomdog]

But the power density is low. Thats why Teslas short range uses LFP but in long range model, they use NCM cylinder battery by panasonic and LG

[@kevinlin4895]

Chinese battery makers have substantially improved LFP energy density over the years to a point where it's only about 20% weaker. However, the fact that you can charge LFP up to 100% rather than 80% for NMC makes it almost a wash. BTW, Chinese battery makers like CATL and BYD makes NMC batteries as well.

[@HermanWillems]

@@TomTomdog I have the LFP model 3. It can go pretty far with that tiny 60kWh battery because it's super efficient(the car itself).

[@prg2457]

Excellent report on the energy storage landscape.

[@99dynasty]

Sodium is abundant, it’s just a matter of scaling up production in your country of choice. This is good for the world

[@FBAagent]

Chinese people and Swedish people in this are very cool neutral powers in the power dominated by economic interests that are often not in line with logic and progress.

[@JigilJigil]

All the neighbor countries of China consider it as a hostile country and most people of China support CCP's political and geopolitical actions and behaviors.

[@kevinlin4895]

Sadly Sweden has now joined NATO so is definitely NOT neutral anymore

[@andrikurniawan531]

where is CATL interview and chinese person interview?

[@nbl1807]

This would be great to store wind, solar energy for our cities with such batteries. But doing so, salt going to be precious ingredient for our food ))

[@misterfunnybones]

Public transit is the only long term viable solution to transport. EV+ICE=SOV=gridlock. If you cater to cars, you get more cars. Check the Katy Freeway in Texas or the 401 in Toronto for data.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

Public transit in cities. Cars in the countryside. Park and ride so people from the countryside can enter the city without bringing their car in with them.

[@7_years_and_]

Couple of year back here in India there was big noice about sodium battery production . now as usuaal China made it so far ..lol

[@user-uu2wp5ny3u]

The difference is that we have the technology needed for sodium batteries, you guys are just there to escape the reality of China's lithium battery technology being the world's first in the world to engage in whimsical thinking

[@sjishah]

Chile was the largest tapped lithium producer, but now there is another competitor in the market called "Afghanistan" the world's largest lithium-ion untapped mines, which China already leased for the next 25 years.

[@robdevilee8167]

I think sodium's the future, because lithium batteries are a fire hazard, and sodium batteries aren't.

[@marcinhibner9507]

You can also have capacitors in staged volume discharge with sequences of various in for various needs and moments in change and discharge thats a multi trillion dollar idea. Do it now.

[@jetli740]

capacitors 😂😂 low power density it total useless, that why no product ever use capacitors as power storage

[@theshadowoftruth7561]

@@jetli740 ever hear of Supercapacitors?

[@waichungsham1578]

@@theshadowoftruth7561 go make some you seem to have the solution

[@jetli740]

@@theshadowoftruth7561 name 1 product use Supercapacitors as energy storage?

[@anm3037]

Europe is busy with war funding 😂

[@ValentinMorio]

The US 👀

[@mosestekper7659]

You need to be alive to own a phone.

[@mihnea229]

If your country was invaded by another you would beg for somebody to help you.

[@restlessmedicos785]

True

[@AleksFolk1]

Europe has a population the size of China, give our take whatever. But the difference is that the entire population of China is working to better China, where the entire population of Europe is still working to better their own individual countries. For this reason alone, Europe will never pull ahead of China.

[@imjanng]

Well said! China is the East equivalent of Europe except they became a nation but Europe never became a nation. They are still separated.

[@rmar127]

Australia also had a couple of sodium battery companies making waves too.

[@SolRC]

Need a SALT box backup for my home.

[@deanuehara1728]

I would have appreciated the facts about relative energy density of the two technologies with current state of the art

[@andersgrassman6583]

This report wasn't that great overall. It lacked a lot. I don't think the journalists even understand the most basic things, so reporting suffers.

[@phillyphil1513]

re: "I would have appreciated the facts about relative energy density of the two technologies with current state of the art" nope can't give you that. this "scam" is known as a LIE BY OMISSION.

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

In standard cars NMC lithium ion batteries are at 260...280Wh/kg energy density. LFP lithium ion batteries are at approx. 200Wh/kg energy density. Three years ago LFP lithium ion batteries were at 160Wh/kg energy density. Sodium Ion batteries in the lab are at 165Wh/kg (university bayreuth).

[@edwinloh1509]

That’s really fascinating !! With more advanced technology coming forward, sodium-ion batteries can be produced with less heavier and much smaller. Batteries can be sold at cheaper prices.

[@matthewhuszarik4173]

Na-Ion batteries aren’t new. They will just never have the same energy density. For fixed applications like home storage and small or remote grid storage, they may make sense but for large-scale grid storage flow batteries make even more sense, but for vehicles in North America and Australia probably not. It will be more advantageous to make much lighter Li-ion vehicles and making them more affordable. So while the Na-ion battery industry will grow don't expect it to replace the majority of Li-ion applications.

[@ZweiZwolf]

Sodium is cheaper, so it will replace every Lithium application that cares more about price than absolute performance. The overwhelming majority of product is VERY price-sensitive, so Sodium will be the overwhelming favorite going forward.

[@matthewhuszarik4173]

@@ZweiZwolf Most applications battery price is not the issue weight is. Portable electronics and hand tools will most likely remain NMC and not even switch to LiFeP. High performance and luxury vehicles will remain NMC and mid range vehicles and trucks will likely go with LiFeP. Only inexpensive short range commuters car will likely switch over to Na-Ion. Where Na-Ion will do well is in home and small utility backup where routine maintenance would be an issue. Large scale utility backup will probably switch to flow batteries because of the total capacity and very low self discharge rates. Na-Ion will be in the mix, but it probably won’t be replacing any other technology completely.

[@matthewhuszarik4173]

@@ZweiZwolf You do understand that Na-Ion batteries offer lower performance for a given weight or volume. So any application where either are important, which is most of them they will stay with Li-Ion.

[@ZweiZwolf]

@@matthewhuszarik4173 You should understand that price usually dominates over performance, because it doesn't matter how good a thing is if it's too expensive. There are very few cases where absolute performance matters and you cannot increase size and weight to compensate. Portable electronics used to do just fine with Ni-Cd, and cell phones used to be much thicker. Hand tool battery packs used to be NiMH. Cars have plenty of space for bigger batteries, and improved charging infrastructure will reduce typical range requirements all around. Sodium price & performance will continue to improve, further squeezing the Lithium use cases. Expect Sodium to replace 80% of what Lithium does today.

[@matthewhuszarik4173]

@@ZweiZwolf You know history refutes everything you are saying. If cost was everything we would all be using lead acid batteries for everything and Li-Ion technology would have never developed.

[@badeadrian]

The electric vehicles same price... company is making more profits

[@vinnieramone4818]

If could charge my car at my apartment (I park on the street) and charge it again at my destination, I would be ok with a 20 or 30 mile range. I imagine others are in the same situation

[@123_1]

Agree... battery is good for e-scooters and ice cream carts...

[@miroslavstevic2036]

80-90% of people live in the big cities. Small cars with 50..100km range (when new) and a lot of chargers will do the trick 100% It's not the batteries or cars, it is actually charging that is the problem ...

[@andersgrassman6583]

...also I would love if the charging was inductive / wireless. It's been tried in garage settings, as far as I know, but in street settings it would be even more attractive.

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

@@miroslavstevic2036 it would be cool to rent a small car with 100...200km range (which is no problem at all with sodium ion) while taking the train for the main part.

[@ZweiZwolf]

@@miroslavstevic2036 China simply installed HUGE numbers of chargers to solve the charging problem. China installed banks of 20+, 50+ chargers at the malls, parks, basically every parking lot. Urban taxi drivers simply top up during their lunch break, cheap and convenient.

[@FernandoPerez3h.]

That occurs when the focus is on economy and development, rather than on inventing new gender categories, as Germany does.

[@AthleticHobo-br4qh]

Even if Germany focused 100% on economic and industrial competitiveness, the much lower wages in China and much larger government subsidies that the Chinese government can give so their industries can outcomes foreign competitors is worrying.

[@XKS99]

@@oiuqreofnqoiruegnqerg the Frankfurt school was . . . In Frankfurt. A lot (but not all) of the insanity currently gripping the West started there.

[@XKS99]

@@AthleticHobo-br4qh both the EU and China shape (distort) their markets with incentives and regulations. Question is which set of distortions will have the best outcome. It’s strange that the US had generated world changing companies without an explicit industrial policy directing them.

[@djape1977]

​@@oiuqreofnqoiruegnqergfew years ago a Reichstag member started his speech by addressing everyone present by reading all 70+ personal pronouns currently in use in Germany. It is quite hilarious and you should be able to find it easily

[@miriareu]

Wow that's awesome to hear! Well done China!.

[@coolstuff8925]

Great documentary with practical insights. Lithium is still the winner 🥇 I believe.

[@windsong3wong828]

China have more TMT engineers graduate than USA or EU combined. The research in China will lead the world.

[@windsong3wong828]

@@oiuqreofnqoiruegnqerg Just read it up bro. Pay in China is 1/4 of USA ….so, the same research dollar goes further in China.

[@caty863]

Does this girl know that the term "salt" is not specific to table salt? Li also, as a metal, forms salt.

[@misterfunnybones]

Lithium salts are used as psych meds. Perfect. Now we can reduce emissions & not go insane at the same time using the same chemical elements. 😂

[@almdrs]

Salt is both a generic and specific word.

[@caty863]

@@almdrswhat is that specific meaning?

[@almdrs]

This: " In chemical terms, salts are ionic compounds. To most people, salt refers to table salt, which is sodium chloride. Sodium chloride forms from the ionic bonding of sodium ions and chloride ions. " Ionic compound is the technical, specific definition. Table salt is the generic, that most people know about.

[@caty863]

@@almdrsFirst, DW is not "most people". This is one of the biggest media platform in the word; so you need to be someone to work there. Second, Na is not salt. it's just the metal that would bond with Chlorine to form the salt you are talking about.

[@Kosmonooit]

If they are going to be lot cheaper than Lithium then certainly they will be popular for stationery energy storage systems, where the larger volume is not a big issue. Another plus will be more cycles of course.

[@urbanstrencan]

Really good video keep up with great work and more on EV and battery tech😊❤

[@johnjakson444]

Which one is better, peas or carrots?

[@afterglow5285]

peas.

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

meat and eggs

[@JigilJigil]

*The Comment section is occupied by the 50 cent army.*

[@user-xt5yz8wm7z]

Troll 🤣🤣

[@Paul-yh8km]

I think sodium ion batteries could be offered on eBikes. The BMS on eBikes is less sophisticated than EVs so the higher safety and higher tolerance of temperature could be an advantage. Also a reduced range may not be such a big deal for some ebike users. I typically ride 2 or 3 miles and rarely do more than 5 per trip.

[@silentblackhole]

Great to have tech that relies on something so common. Because of the low power density it won't replace lithium to be used in small consumer electronics but will be good for home power batteries to power the whole house and store solar etc and similar large static low cost uses where size or weight isn't an issue.

[@ZweiZwolf]

No, Sodium will replace small electronics where price matters. If your cell phone were cheaper, but 2 mm thicker, it's not a problem.

[@davidtindell950]

thank you, well presented !

[@ravikurup8350]

So when will the west sanction these Chinese battery companies for being too green? 😂

[@shencheanglow3726]

Battery size can be compensate with more charging stations. Or by development proximity charging along highways, auto charging of batteries while driving in such lanes.

[@alimuqadus786]

Sodium will reduce lithium demand / dependency atleast in small ev's or in smaller products.

[@JLeonSarmiento]

This is huge news

[@okfun5276]

China accounted for 75% of the battery market share last year. What are u talking about "pull ahead"?

[@tedwong7037]

i thought China already did?

[@doujinflip]

China says they're mass producing Na-ion batteries now, but we've yet to see them actually on sale.

[@miragept]

Chinese exporters already sell them for a few months, currently their price is worse than LFP but guessing in the future they will be correctly cheaper. (used "batteryfinds" as source of that exporter)

[@BMWX1-2023]

What is the price difference per kilowatt hour?

[@steve-qe7tj]

What the previous commenter said, there is plenty of room for both types! The heavier sodium batteries will work great for home and even Urban electrical storage! The lighter, more efficient lithium will be used as it already is for automobiles and mobile devices!

[@XKS99]

“Will China pull *farther* ahead with battery technology” should be the title.

[@JigilJigil]

LOL, funny wumao.

[@XKS99]

@@JigilJigilwhat does wumao mean? That you don’t hate Chinese people?

[@directxxxx71]

​@@JigilJigil Another BBC/CNN/EPOCH_TIMES/FOX NEWS fed 🤡 is here It's funny that people in the west do not trust their government and medias but when comes to reports on China, they believe them 100 percent. Is that stupidity or naiveness or both?? 😉😉

[@dinnerwaltz]

The U.S. still hasn't opened up the U.S. market to Chinese EVs. The U.S. is like that, when the U.S. is better than you in a field, they open up their market to you, but when they know they can't compete with you, they don't open up the market.

[@JigilJigil]

They just don't want China's junk EVs, China's EVs are notorious for catching fire, BYD is the record holder of that.

[@arshadhamedmirza]

They keep saying salt, when they mean Baking Powder. Salt is NaCl not Na2CO3

[@andersgrassman6583]

These journalists don't actually understand much. Also consider the target audience for DW channel.

[@Steven-vo4ee]

Salts are salts.

[@marktrinidad7650]

Bro. They would be doing full scale production on their current technology at the end of the decade? The Chinese has already a full scale production of sodium batteries. God knows what they would be having in the next 6 years.

[@MarcoPolo-hn8or]

🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳👍👏👏👏👏

[@dxelson]

BAN BAN BAN, cant compete, BAN.

[@Khyberization]

Europe at this point can not catch up to China, and is likely to fall further behind. Normally industrialized nations have cheaper cost to energy, and higher automation which allows them to counter the cheaper cost to labour. China recognized this years ago, as they went heavy into coal, and dams to achieve lower energy costs to attract industry. China however was smart, and there are inherent advantages to a totalitarian state, and that was the shift to batteries, as they wanted to lower oil consumption because they held so little of it. With lower energy costs and cheap labour they attracted more and more industry and automation. Now Europe can't compete in any, except for maybe automation, and I would say they on par. Europe needs to work with Africa if they ever hope to compete with Russia, China, or the US. And China is already more aggressively pursuing ties with Africa in manufacturing, while Europe tries to just use Africa for their resources.

[@tvm73836]

Faradion of UK is a world leader in Sodium Ion technologies