Will Meloni's Devolution Plan For Italy Backfire?

[@danycashking]

6:58 a single political party controlling the legislature by default regardless if a majority of the population voted for them or not? That would NEVER lead to any issues whatsoever.....

[@jamesevans1890]

It's certainly not perfect. Italy has tried out various electoral systems in recent years and in 2014 the PD and leftwing allies gained a big majority in parliament (340 seats) with 29.5% of the votes cast. In fact 5 Star gained 108 seats with 8.69 millions votes and PD gained 292 seats with 8.64 million votes, i.e. fewer votes and nearly three times as many seats. I doubt many electoral systems would be less democratic than that....although France and UK in 2024 tried their best....

[@User-r5g5f]

Sounds like Labour‘s recent victory in the UK 😂

[@nielskorpel8860]

But why not simply proportional representation? Let n be the amount of seats in Parliament. Every nth portion of the vote is one seat. Period. Why must there be these weird quirks all the time?

[@L_back]

@@kelliott7864There are too many parties in Italy that want the same thing. If that’s not an argument, then I’d say - convincing a massive chunk of a polarized society is tough. I’m not necessarily supporting this system though

[@imresitkei8287]

Just take a look at Hungary. FIDESZ received 54% of the votes and they got 68% of parliamentary seats. They achieved a legitimate supermajority in 2010 that they held on to eversince then by replacing the entire constitution. They passed 13 amendments in 12 years for a constitution that they wrote for themselves. Due to the 9th amendment they can give the government emergency powers for basically whatever reason. They use it to circumvent the parliament (that they already have a supermajority in) since 2015. First due to the migration wave then covid pandemic and now the war in Ukraine.

[@Federico-je1yr]

I didn't know that Trentino belonged to Lombardy

[@fiorino4554]

As a lombardian I wish😔

[@thenamesianna]

Trentino used to be part of Veneto before WW2

[@luigifranceschi2350]

@@thenamesiannabefore WW2 regions didn’t exist. There were only provinces. And Trento was a province. The province of Trento was called “Venezia Tridentina” and it was corresponding to approximately the borders of the today Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. So Trentino never belonged to Veneto

[@turkishultranationalist]

Trentino belongs to Austria

[@luigifranceschi2350]

@@turkishultranationalist ah, and Antalya to Italy.

[@dropshot1967]

at 3:35 "the election capitulated Meloni into ...". Should that not be "catapulted Meloni ...." ? I don't think she surrendered ;-)

[@napoleonfeanor]

She did on immigration

[@BlankPageEmperor1334]

Lmao you can do more than one take, Ben 😂

[@rogerbellver3085]

and "power fully centralised in 'rom'" but I love it :)

[@lobstermash]

It's not the poster, it's KZbin's bloody stupid autocorrect. Happens all the time.

[@andysierra1618]

Meloni has capitulated giving us access to the following equipment: 25k infantry equipment 30 Trucks

[@maximus3178]

As an Italian, regardless whether these reforms are actually useful or not, changing the Constitution of this country has always been a risky bet for any government. The fact is that everybody agrees that it needs to be updated to the current era, since it reflects a society that doesn't exist anymore and it's not written on stone. Actually this kind of reform has been attempted both by the left and the right equally 2 times (including this one) in the past, but both sides pretend each time this proposal is new because people (often conveniently) have short memories. So one side says they want reforms, the other one starts wearing the cosplay of the Constitutional Guardian (as if it really is written on stone) battling against authoritarianism. Only because both sides want to have their stamp on this reform and credit politically out of it, instead of reaching a unite national proposal. Edit: at least 2/3 of the parliament seats are needed for a constitutional reform to have a pass. If this threshold doesn't get reached (80/90% of the time) the proposal must go through the ballots via referendum. The contradiction is that historically Italians love to exploit that importance to express satisfaction or dissatisfaction toward the PM, rather than focusing on the matter at hand. That is why these reforms are so hard to have a go in Italy. In the majority of cases they either get rejected or don't reach a quorum. The constitutional reforms which made it through in 80 years can be counted with your fingers. That's because politicians don't know how to get people interested in the specific topics and often have a "do or die" approach to them. Basically they tie the destiny of their political careers to the results of the referendum out of ego, like Renzi (center-left) in 2016. This works if you're popular, but if you're not people will vote NO just to get you out of there. Apparently Meloni learn from her predecessors and doesn't seem to want to apply that approach. In fact she started that non matter the result she will continue to do her job

[@rushyscoper1651]

yea but its more the proposed idea is bigger take all mentality, imagine 3 right wing parties and 1 left wing party left gonna win by default, u can take 30% of the vote and be treated like u won 55% of the vote. its silly anti-many parties system, u basically hard stuck in 2 party even harder then USA.

[@floris1111]

Super interesting! Thanks for the context from NL (:

[@marcbrasse747]

That’s the way of politics. Get fat from the status quo, preach you are there for everybody, blame the minorities, avoid doing what is necessary.

[@will_mar]

There is no need to change the constitution to make necessary reforms. The fact is no right nor left (but especially the filthy right) have no clue about what Italy and its people need, but just what Italian oligarchs need. This channel is too praising towards Meloni, I'm very sick of English liars.

[@Zestieee]

Yeah that's a bit funny. The Constitution is sacred only when they want it to be, otherwise they'll say it has problems. And this is true for all parties and sides in our political scene

[@ValerioVota]

I don't remember Salvini apologising to southerners

[@user-sh3cf7kd6e]

You know, that's extremely ironic how the Padania party hate it when the EU treats Italy when its even slightly similar to their treatment of the south.

[@andreaxyz3959]

very untrue

[@user-sh3cf7kd6e]

@@andreaxyz3959 What is exactly?

[@silva3658]

​​@@user-sh3cf7kd6e north Italy is literally one of the richest area of whole Europe, south Italy is one of the poorest region in western Europe, the situation is definitely not the same. The treatment Italy gets from north Europe is strictly because south not north.

[@user-sh3cf7kd6e]

@@silva3658 First of all, Northern Italy has much lower GDP per capita than Germany for instance. Northern Italy also has its own share of economic problems. Secondly, how is that related to what I wrote?

[@lorenzofabbri8686]

Germany has the highest GDP among the E.U, this does not mean that northern Italy has a low GDP. It is funny when you say the E.U., you probably only refer to Germany, even though there are many other countries in the coalition.

[@MegaMegatron15]

I am reminded of that famous quote "We have made Italy. Now we must make Italians." Even now, we can still see the shadow of lacking Italian cultural unity.

[@stevenhombrados1530]

It’s also in Spain, with each autonomous region asking for more and yet playing the victim that the central government steals from them.

[@ilFrancotti]

Wrong thumbnail. Trentino and Alto Adige-Südtirol are provinces of the same region.

[@capitanodisseo429]

Yeah but they work similar to regions given their special autonomy status

[@francescoboselli6033]

To fair more than one region it would be correct to speak of two united provinces (so showing them separate on the map is not that wrong)

[@ilFrancotti]

@@francescoboselli6033 Showing them separate is very wrong as it led these guys to completely fuck up the region's border by merging Trentino with Lombardy. They have been together as a single subdivision for centuries. The degree of autonomy each province enjoys from the other does not justify any incorrect interpretation.

[@nukekidontheblock8349]

@@wildfire9280 look up “irredentismo italico” stronger than ever

[@robjus1601]

Thank you

[@anthonyn.7379]

I remember when the fight broke out in the parliament back in June. I was actually fortunate enough to visit the Chamber of Deputies in Rome the day after that fight broke out, and the air amongst the workers and the deputies felt very tense. Our tour guide told us that we would have to be evacuated if a brawl erupted again.

[@diegocanale1124]

😱

[@zUJ7EjVD]

Bringing back FPTP is the single worst way to stabilize Italy's government.

[@theinterofamnma]

FPTP never was Italy's election method so in no way is anyone "bringing it back". Moreover, the reform would be even worse than FPTP: it simply plans to award a "bonus" amount of 55% of MPs to the coalition that get even just 1 more vote than any other

[@stereomachine]

It's crazy how long we've known that FPTP is bad but how little's been done in so many places to end it

[@flori5296]

​@@theinterofamnmabefore implementing MMM it did use FPTP, but yes this isn't FPTP it's much worse. This is actually similar to how commune councils are elected in Italy.

[@zUJ7EjVD]

@@theinterofamnma You're description of "worse than FPTP" is basically just FPTP.

[@theinterofamnma]

@@zUJ7EjVD FPTP refers more to a system where the entire country is divided into constituency, and each constituency elects one person on the first round, and that's pretty distortive of the proportional representation. The proposed reform however is more like a "country-wide FPTP" with only one constituency.

[@Hadar1991]

3:41 Whenever I hear "Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia" I have a little brain freeze and I start wondering "Isn't he dead, surely he is dead", and after checking it once again, in fact he is dead. So it kinda feel as somebody would say "Shinzo Abe's Liberal Democratic Party". Please don't lynch me, I am not an Italian. :p

[@SirAlric82]

Yes he’s dead now but he was still alive in 2022 when the current government won the election. Also Forza Italia is still using “Berlusconi for president” in their symbol in order to continue to benefit from their late leader charisma and popularity (something the current leadership lacks)

[@Hadar1991]

@@SirAlric82 Wasn't he like 90 years old in 2022? :D And Americans are complaining that Joe Biden is old. :p

[@AbraXas-bi9ux]

@@Hadar1991 secretly, he was 124 😂

[@SirAlric82]

@@Hadar1991 He died of illness at age 86.

[@sonodietrodithe4iltuoincub848]

​@@Hadar1991to be fair he looked younger than my dad and he is 64

[@BenPaganelli]

This was an excellent piece all around. Very well explained and informative.

[@vittorioianora2010]

As an Southerner Italian, I can affirm that Lega secretly still blame south and its population

[@ungaaatioo2359]

it just rebranded as eu policy and immigrants this video confirms that

[@vittorioianora2010]

@@ungaaatioo2359 Maybe you don't understood me, the Lega and leghist still "hate" south italian because they still think we take their taxes with no real good reason but they, the leghist, do not say that anymore since then they wouldn't get the votes they get from south. you're also right, Lega hates EU and immgrants but the most funny thing is that, when they want the north to be indipent, they prefer EU to Rome meant as the central power

[@MrLaptopus]

If they hate you then why do you want to be in the same country as them?

[@patriarch7237]

@@MrLaptopus He said "Lega", not "Northern Italians". Lots of overlap I'm sure, but they aren't the same thing.

[@patriarch7237]

@@vittorioianora2010 "Lega hates EU and immgrants but the most funny thing is that, when they want the north to be indipent, they prefer EU to Rome meant as the central power" Similar with the Scottish National Party in the UK (apart from the anti-immigrant thing, they are left-wing). SNP are/were very pro-EU because they hate deferring to London, and the EU was seen as a good counterweight.

[@fabioferronato571]

In the maps, Lombardy is wrongly depicted to include also Trento province

[@MMajor13]

7:00 Wait, that’s basically just the Acerbo Law all over again. Can’t wait to see who ends up wearing the fez this time around!

[@ElysiumCreator]

6:20 I didn’t know Italy’s capital went through a change in spelling recently

[@HahaDamn]

ROM

[@xbirdshorts5075]

CD ROM

[@rurak2727]

Maybe a German map?

[@jacopo1farina]

It's now called Astana

[@KamBar2020]

Slava Pizza 🍕

[@melonking9752]

Trentino is a part of Trentino-South Tyrol

[@MrUsermister]

"Brothers Of Italy" is a very coarse and misleading translation, as it doesn't consider its grammar and etymology implications. The real meaning is actually "Brothers And Sisters Of Italy" and that reads as the whole of the Italian population, hence the Italians.

[@gavv5911]

“There are no northern Italian questions, there are no southern Italian questions, there is only the questions of a single people”

[@wendyreed9682]

That's what you think!

[@JDsnoopy]

Congratulations for a video that concisely touches all relevant points, including some nuances of recent Italian politics not often covered or understood by international media, and provides a truly comprehensive overview for the topic.

[@forza-e-honore]

Amazing that Southern Italians were good enough to help build the U.S. into an economic powerhouse, serve in the U.S. military which saved Italy from fascist dictatorship, and work in northern Italian cities and other European countries, but the South isn't good enough for northern investment.

[@ilmaio]

Because of mafia, dear. Nothing wrong with southerns, it's the South the problem, and too many people accustomed to free lunches provided by welfare. Southerns in fact emigrate and prosper anywhere else, because they are the ones that want to be able to pay for a steak, and are not interested into free sandwiches. Regarding "saving" Italy from dictatorship, the matter is debatable to say the least. Equally southerns fought bravely into the RSI, probably because they saw themselves as Italians.

[@shutupMaji]

Hard to invest in the south because the mafia will take it all I guess

[@bendursley]

Super informative! I've been watching your videos for a while now, and they are always clear, and you break down topics well. Thanks!

[@rafakrzentowski9549]

0:36 23000 GDP per capita-amoungs the poorests regions in EU, meanwhile it's more that most of post-eastern block countries

[@albertofuzzi7200]

historically Italy has always been a rich nation, even during the dark ages, thanks to a great geographical position and good artisanal skills widely developed in its inhabitants.

[@kingkayfabe5358]

Things are also way more expensive in EU countries than in Eastern Europe or other less developed countries, which makes the high gdp per capita less impressive

[@rafakrzentowski9549]

@@kingkayfabe5358 I'm talking about countries that are in EU and were in eastern block like Poland(in 2021 it was 17,8 K per capita, Romania 14,6K, Bulgaria 11,6K)

[@lucapolidori8817]

You have to compare it to the average cost of life, that in Eastern Europe is much lower than in Italy

[@tylerclayton6081]

@@albertofuzzi7200 Italy and European inequality is awful. The UK as well is basically a third world country outside of London

[@jochen9367]

Funny enough Sanchez is planning a similar reform which would also benefit North or more specifically Northeast regions and the right is the one doing the opposition.

[@FrankeNamensKarim]

Spain and italy are different, the regions and their interests are different, the plan isn't exactly the same and spains far right is pretty socialist while Meloni is for a free market and makes politics for the richs

[@mrantipatia1872]

@@jochen9367 Sanchez's reform is well written, Calderoli's not. We are not against Federalism, we are against this shitty-written reform which would be pro-secession

[@rushyscoper1651]

for spain its not about money, its about not feeling like they are one country and wanting independence or getting close to that as much as possible. italy whole thing is we rich lets split from the poor, that is stupid and very short term thinking.

[@FrankeNamensKarim]

@@rushyscoper1651 yes, but I'd still like to add that there are some regiona in Italy that want their own state and don't really feel like part of rest Italy. Especially in sicily, where 30% (I think it was more, but I am not sure) want Sicily to be an independent country

[@MarketsDriveTheWorld]

​@@FrankeNamensKarimtell me in history when immigration was a socialist policy given that it's clearly a capitalist one.... There is nothing socialist about today's left they just do different interests for the rich.

[@crash.override]

The "directly-elected PM's party automatically gets a majority" provision has creepy echoes of the Acerbo Law, that's all I'm gonna say.

[@StanAbelHU]

I see the historical parallel would not look good, but if the prime minister would be elected by a good system, or at least two-rounds, it doesn't sound too bad (it can be better than the MMM system now, which can distort in weirder ways than a majority jackpot). Provided of course the party who wins the 55% cannot win any of the other 45% seats, because then it's just a supermajority with virtually no opposition.

[@AlphaHorst]

​@@StanAbelHUno this is really bad. A Party with 2% of the vote could get an outright mayority with all other parties getting less than 1% of the vote But more realistically in italy, usually a party has 25-30% of the vote and find similary mined allies who got between 10 and 20% of the vote. So if the winner now gets 55% just because and still has similarities with the other two parties the majority would in almsot every vote be 70-80%. This system eradicates opposition and democracy as a whole. Its "Winner takes all" for single person voting and supercharges it to a whole nation. It is absolutely not representative and will lead to a 1 party rule with at best 2 parties present like in the US. You no longer need to talk with people, you just need to convice a single person more than anyone else to be handed rule over anywhere from 1% to 98% of peopel who did not vote for you.

[@StanAbelHU]

@@AlphaHorst You don't have to illustrate the flaws of FPTP to me, but still FPTP on a national scale with a reasonable majority jackpot is somewhat more reasonable than FPTP from districts. Districts can produce electoral inversions and very arbitrary bonuses, especially in a multi-party system. But I don't want to assume good intentions of Meloni's party in this, it is highly suspicious of course. I'm saying if there's opposition to pure proportional representation and fears of ungovernability, then some versions of a majority bonus (small) or a jackpot (properly implemented) are not neccessarily bad. And what's the point of directly electing a prime minister if they can be completely blocked by a parliament? Of course a system where the winner gets 55% from 30% and then can form a coalition to get a supermajority and change the constitution should never be allowed, and proper checks and balances are needed in any case (Senate, referendums, different supemajority rules etc.). But if impemented in a way that is thought through and limited, a majority jackpot is not the worst idea, it's a more consistent bonus and limited measure for a specific purpose, while district based FPTP is always arbitrary. Problem is it's hard to set up a good system like that, and they probably won't. FPTP for the prime minister together with lists is not a good idea because it can produce extreme results, but at least it makes it more or less resists manipulation (fake list for prime minister). A two-round system for prime minister and majority jackpot is more fair because then a majority will elect the majority party, but then they might get extra seats with satellite parties. Probably the best way would be to only hold a second round with a majority jackpot is there is not workable coalition, but then it doesn't really work with the direct prime minister election I think

[@MarketsDriveTheWorld]

​@@AlphaHorstif you have 51% of the seats the opposition doesn't matter anyway..... The only thing that matters is if the people elected betray the electors or not....

[@ericdane7769]

@@MarketsDriveTheWorld But in coalition governments you still need to compromise and there are balancing mechanisms. Coalition governments work, as long as the landscape isn't too fragmented (or inexperienced), and there is a good/stable interaction with the bureaucracy. Seems to me (but I'm no expert on Italy) that the problem lies there, not with the electoral system.

[@ronnyskaar3737]

This is a road to unrest and discontent.

[@HurtmePlenty1993]

Italian here, trust me, most of us won't do shit to try and change this, the people I'm a part of are (mostly) dumbasses that simply don't care how bad things are and will get, all those who wanted change already left this place, and I'll do the same when i can. Leave that nation to fall, nothing will fix it, because of the government or because of the populace.

[@Counterfactualy_no]

I'm not Italian, but giving the party who's candidate for president won 55% of the seats would give the president so much power... too much power

[@lars-erikstrid2278]

Unearned power. So it's bad.

[@carlomartello-]

Shut up

[@theuglykwan]

It's the prime minister who holds power. The president is head of state and while the commander in chief, doesn't have that much power with regards to legislation.

[@Helga7850]

But the Italian LEFT has only 4 regions out of 20...so it's UNJUST to give economic power to the LOSERS of Italian politics. That's democracy. The great majority of regions, the most productive ones are governed by the right-wing. THAT'S DEMOCRACY

[@nicolomone4796]

Not president, prime minister, two different things

[@antoniotorcoli5740]

Meloni can not fix Italy. Nobody can. Furthemore, she chose loyalty over competences and merit. The result is that her ministers are embarassing.

[@fungool]

The thing is loyalty is the most important thing in politics...

[@luisbarbosa8136]

@@fungool exactly.. some people don´t get that

[@elcocodriloazul]

@@fungool yeah loyalty is how fascism started.

[@spaniardsrmoors6817]

Italy is top 10 in every wealth category and as military power, #2 EU Industrial power, G7 member/founder, what are you talking about?

[@antoniotorcoli5740]

@@spaniardsrmoors6817 I am talking about many italian ministers.Check them out ,only Crosetto Giorgetti and Piantedosi are decent. Furthermore, Italy is the only european country where , according to OCSE and Eurostat data, real salaries decreased in the last 30 years. You forgot to mention that Italy has the highest public debt in the EU. Do you know that there are legal contracts paying less than 5 euros per hour? Do you know that many young italians, especially in the South, are working their asses for a non declared job paid less than 700 euros per month? Do you know that thousands of illegal immigrants work basically as slaves ( it's called caporalato) in the fields of Puglia and live like animals in barracks whitout electricity and running water?

[@SirBinley]

While I am an admirer of TLDR News, its graphics, story composition and presenters, and I hope it continues to prosper, I do think that they could do better on pronunciation in some of their stories, eg Veneto. It only takes two minutes to track down an English speaking Italian (or Bulgarian or Swede or whoever) to ascertain the correct pronunciation.

[@merrymachiavelli2041]

If they are putting out multiple videos a day, and those videos have words from multiple different languages, and some of those have multiple pronunciations/are quite obscure, it adds up to quite a lot of work for a small team.

[@ancienregime5578]

Or simply use google translate lol.

[@Lore_96]

Where is the "haha" reaction where you need it

[@AlphaHorst]

Calling a bill that literally fully seperates regions from one another a way to "solidify greater italian solidarity" is utterly funny. Its like saying "Splitting germany in halve post WWII created a stronger, more united germany"

[@patriarch7237]

This kind of devolution is supposed to act like a pressure relief valve for regions which are fed up and threatening to leave. If you have a region which is unhappy (let's say it's either poorer or richer than the rest, far from the capital, and feels rightly or wrongly that the capital doesn't care about it) the inhabitants will start agitating for independence from those snooty metro types/foreign overlords. Giving devolution/regional powers allows them to feel like they are getting some control over their affairs, whilst still keeping them within the larger nation. This can sometimes work (Scotland and Catalonia, for now at least) and sometimes it doesn't (Ireland 100 years ago, most colonies sooner or later). There can also be a bit of cynicism as well - give the local leaders responsibilities, and you can (fairly or not) point the finger at them when their region struggles "see what happens when we let Independents run your region? Vote for us, and lets not try this again". I'm not saying that's really what is happening here; are rich northern regions really threatening to secede from Italy or kick out their southern neighbours?

[@andreascovano7742]

germany is a federal goverment though. As is the US.

[@mat3714]

​@@patriarch7237 Doesn't work. It will only open the gate for more demands and will create parallel societies resulting in cessation cycles every time theirs political pressures for the wrong reasons.

[@cla1988]

​​@@andreascovano7742 exactly, but he doesn't know what federal republic means...😅

[@KamBar2020]

Slava Pizza 🍕

[@italiastoria]

The map of Lombardy includes Trentino… very good video!

[@iGamezRo]

She do be any% speedrunning that "Acerbo Law 2.0"

[@quinnnewman9538]

This seems like a blatant power grab

[@ilect1690]

i find it ironic how the south is the poorest area concidering for most of history its been the north that was poorer, campania use to be the richest region of italy during the roman republic

[@DaDunge]

Got to say I find Meloni's wider wocnstitutional reform to be a lot more worrying than thle regonal autonomy thing.

[@felicepompa938]

She doesn't have to numbers to pass that without a popular referendum, which she'd badly lose tarnishing her political career forever and that's the main reason that proposal has been a suggestion at best. She could try a couple of months before the end of the legislature to test the waters/to use as propaganda in the incumbent elections

[@marcobonesi6794]

actually,with the current reform,the north ironically risks paying even more for the south. Since the basic services must be guaranteed in every region,and several southern regions do not have the fiscal capacity to guarantee even the basic services. So the north ironically risks to be taxed even more. Unfortunately,this reform is not real federalism,that would force the southern society to elect skilled bureacrats to manage its scarce resources.

[@r.a.3829]

"Dovrebbero" hai detto bene, ma in molti regioni (tipo Molise e Calabria) molti dei servizi base non sono garantiti perchè sotto-finanziati, quindi no, le regioni del nord non pagheranno di più per via del sud

[@marcobonesi6794]

@@r.a.3829 no,visto che quei servizi non sono sottofinanziati. Ricevono gli stessi soldi delle altre regioni in base alla popolazione residente. Quei soldi sono semplicemente gestiti con i piedi dalle elite locali elette dai residenti. Tanto il grosso dei soldi che amministrano non viene dal proprio territorio. Infatti un vero federalismo costringerebbe i residenti ad eleggere gente che sappia fare decentemente il proprio lavoro.

[@WhichDoctor1]

but surely, once the north is faced with increased taxation to pay for minimum services in the south, won't that just be used as a rallying cry for removing minimum service requirements entirely? The far right has a habit of slowly breaking well fair systems until they can convince enough people that because those systems are broken, they need to be scrapped entirely

[@ad_astra468]

Yeah sure, we’ll just get harsh austerity in the south followed by a bunch of smooth brains pointing to public service quality falling as our fault. You want souther Italy to not “weigh on the north” and reform? Pull a Singapore and just kick us out the country, we’re the minority after all if the rest of the Italians wanted to do so it could be done trough a referendum.

[@marcobonesi6794]

@@ad_astra468 no. Since you do not have the mentality of the people of singapore. Moreover you lack a visonary leader like lee kuan yew that made their economic miracle a reality. You have people like de luca or emiliano. Outside italy, the south would collapse.

[@RealMattHaney]

If you want the south to be better, go help them be better, rather than cutting yourself off from them, which only exacerbates differences. Duh. Also, yeah automatically giving a legislative majority to the executive branch is totally not problematic and definitely won’t backfire or be something you’ll be upset about as soon as your opposition party gets elected. 🙄

[@ASlickNamedPimpback]

Should’ve went for Modernize the Mezzorgino instead of Strengthen Northern Industry, smh my instead

[@andysierra1618]

@@ASlickNamedPimpback Hahaha nice reference, they should've also picked dispersed industry

[@mr.archivity]

Considering that Cavour hated southern Italians you should see why this happened. He purposely did not approve the promises Garibaldi made to the south and instead wanted the north to control all the value. Then WWI started and the king himself forgot that there were other regions outside the northern ones

[@danield2836]

i feel like the mezzogiorno was beyond salvagable already

[@mr.archivity]

@@danield2836 no we can do it. The main problem is that a lot of politicians there misuse funds. For example it was the case where a hospital construction received funds and in the end the work wasn’t done for not enough funds. When they went to check 80% of these vanished during the travel thru country >region > province > city They weren’t found and the case did not continue as the investigations were suspended. Even tho it won’t make the situation good in a day it would at least stop it from degrading further.

[@Savvysnek]

I don’t even play HOI4 but instantly knew this must have been a paradox reference lol

[@stevedimartino683]

Great job, thank you

[@dstinnettmusic]

Northern Italy: I see this as an absolute win!

[@bastabuonismo]

yes....but for ISLAM !

[@theduck0]

​@@bastabuonismo oh get that islamophobia out of here

[@CLAUDIO1993]

Such change of the country structure (which divides even more the country on many levels) needs to be requested via a Referendum who is decided by the overall Italian people and not decided by politicians who have their own interests in these decisions. We have now collected votes for requesting a people's referendum!

[@jorgewu6225]

Stingy North calling for fiscal autonomy to stop the wealth distributing to the poor South, where many of their cheap labours come from, sounds like Catalunya to me 🇪🇸🇮🇹😅.

[@petergray2712]

It's a problem almost universal to Europe. Go to Germany's southern Lander like Bavaria, and you will find a lot of politicians who are for cutting off the East German Lander financially for the sake of keeping more revenue for themselves. This perceived bias is one of the major reasons the AFD has gained power in former East Germany.

[@RealMattHaney]

I don’t understand why the bigger businesses in these areas don’t go look for opportunities in the more cost effective regions. Are there not tax incentives for them in the cheaper areas? In wealthier places, taxes should be higher, so businesses are incentivized to move or expand to more advantageous places. That creates jobs and wealth in those areas also and over time helps grow and stabilize the region.

[@catmonarchist8920]

Imagine if the South of England ever got fiscal autonomy. Would be like a nuclear strike had hit Scotland, Wales, and the North of England.

[@jaygenglish2669]

Like Germany and UK too.

[@luigifranceschi2350]

You missed an important part. The new law was possible only thanks to a reform in the constitution done more than a decade ago by the centre-left government that had the constitution modified purposely to allow devolution to the regions of some of the central powers, and related budget. So the new law is just putting into effect the provision of the centre-left. What is difficult to explain is the U turn of the centre-left that has pushed for it until yesterday to the point to modify the constitution, which is much harder than a simple law like the one by the actual government.

[@isag.7468]

So Italy will go back to being regions

[@luigifranceschi2350]

@@isag.7468 central functions like defence, police and criminal law were never in discussions. Here we are talking of functions that are already devoluted for the autonomous regions or provinces. Like roads, education, urban planning etc.

[@vittorioianora2010]

Actually the centre-left did this constitutional reform in 2001 under the Amato Goverment so that the centre-right did not that to prevent a more devolutionist law by Forza Italia, Lega Nord and National Alliance

[@nicolomone4796]

You missed another important part, why they did it. To give something to the autonomists and shutting down Lega's surging percentages

[@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870]

I mean the U Turn of the center left is rather easy to explain When they did that reform, as well as others they now oppose like the Jobs Act, it was the CENTER Left that did it. It was dominated by members coming from the Christian Demicracy lineage. During those years, the Center LEFT was splitting from mainstream parties, because of their opposition to those laws and reforms. However, after working for the first couple years, this approach ended up weakening the Center Left, to the point last election it had the smallest voter share since Berlusconi's sweeps. So then, atleast in the case of the Democratic Party, the Center LEFT won the primaries. The members expelled or who left in previous years, came back. While the Centrist members, were now the ones expelled or leaving, forming the failed Third Pole experiment.

[@diemme568]

where did you get that wrong regional map !

[@jpsion]

of course it will backfire. only free market is compatible with modern expectations.

[@Leonard-td5rn]

Meloni is from Rome not southern Italy

[@z_1599]

The whole thing of money going from the north to the south is used in Belgium too. The main proponents of fiscal autonomy say that since the south can't rely on the equally split taxes they need to make economic reforms themselves for growth.

[@conconmc]

I think Italy would be better off tackling corruption. Creating a large well funded independent anti corruption agency with judicial reform would be the best think for all of Italy.

[@mr.archivity]

They already tried it. And it ended up corrupt 😂

[@Dendarang]

Streamlining the state, getting rid of unnecessary bureaucracy and establishing an anti-corruption office with wide sweeping powers and no local interest (by, for example, tying it to the EU) would go a long way to helping Italy. That said, that has to be balanced with the simple fact that Italy needs quite a bit of administrative capacity in order for the state to function. The 200 billion euros in EU funds that Italy's been trying and failing to distribute since 2022 are proof enough of that.

[@SneedSeeding]

@@Dendarang Italy's own issues stem from how the unification of the country started in the first place. The Central government kicked off by pillaging the former Two Sicilies into what it is today and letting it fester into a mafia-ridden region who's issues spread throughout the country. Since the Two Sicilies had a very strong King and this was incompatible with the 19th century vision of Liberalism they uprooted all its institutions and replaced them then were shocked when that backfired. Combine that with the patronage of the Mussolini Era and postwar Italy and boom... courruption state.

[@simonedagostino9358]

"creating a large well funded independent anti corruption agency" to fix a corrupt gov't. Who do you think would appoint the commissioners?

[@jacklemonfizz6898]

the main problem of italy is the bureaucracy and the italian left

[@francescoprencipe6401]

very accurate information. congrats! However please check the Lombardy region, doesn't include Trentino as well which is part of the other region of Trentino - Alto Adige

[@burhanbudak6041]

Optimates and populares, reformist and conservatives, Caesarians and Pompeians, second triumvirate and Conspirators is classic Italian splits.

[@gianfrancobenetti-longhini8192]

I always tend to see the merits of any proposal, and having lived away from Italy for some 41 years, hence not having political inclinations other than being anti dictatorships. I do however evaluate proposals for their long term effects. Now after 30 years in trying to understand how Italy functions, I may say that I have discovered why it does not function. The reasons are many, and it would require too many pages to cover them all. So coming back to the "optional" proposal of Meloni on "Devolution" (as termed by you), I personally see benefits. It is already applied with some Regions, and is positive for some. Why is it so? It boils down to who governs the Region. I had a very competent person handling one of the nine sections on a large project in Kuwait, started in 1980, and after completion four years later, I asked him if he was going back to Italy. His reply surprised me ..... "I am not mad, I will go anywhere else" ..... not understanding his reaction, he explained to me that if he wished to start ANY activity in HIS area, within a few days a member of the local "mafia" would knock on his door and would explain the "rules" he has to abide to. The person explaining this to me was from NAPLES. How can the South of Italy prosper under such conditions? Their best and honest persons go elsewhere. Meloni is trying to make every Region responsible for it's results, not being parasitic on the rest of the country. So you may now understand why some do not want the change. In the USA a similar system seems to be applied, for better or worse.

[@deeperunderground09]

There is an error in those maps. Trento is not a part of Lombardy.e

[@DG_5856]

Italy is very diverse, you can't apply the same politics in the whole nation, the geography is totally different so are the inhabitants

[@Sayitlikitiz101]

Italy as a united nation is a recent concept, people seem to forget that. Devolution in a nation where regionalism are so strong is always a dangerous bet. Good luck to Italy.

[@louiscypher4186]

On the contrary it's the best path forward. When regionalism is strong and people feel their voices are shouted down by other regions it stokes the fires of independence. Devolution gives more power and more control to regions allowing for a more stable future.

[@rutgerius123]

I think after 160 years you can no longer call unification a 'recent' phenomenon. Italy balkanising themselves so Mommy Meloni can stay in power would be funny shit and on brand Italian though.

[@nietzscheankant6984]

@@nukekidontheblock8349 ... Do you think you sound smart, *mis*understanding OP, and then throwing copious amounts of "ahahaha"s in there to boot?

[@Kevin-zv6ds]

@@nukekidontheblock8349 Pretty sure you just oversimplified Italian ethnicities too.

[@abiku2923]

​@@rutgerius123160 Years is absolutely recent history.

[@dl6860]

Excellent, this is exactly what will incentivise each province to perform better.

[@lewis123417]

The north south divide is so well known we even learned about it in geography lessons in school

[@zacharyhenderson2902]

That thumbnail looks eerily like a WWII front lines map.

[@zedtrek]

The difference between the North and South of Italy is similar to the UK?

[@Micfri300]

Yes but it's the opposite.

[@n1thmusic229]

@@Micfri300 It's also much worse no?

[@DaDunge]

Wealth wise perhaps but the north and south of italy went their separate ways around the fall of the western roman empire and being forced back under one roof with the unification of Italy wans't great.

[@Patrick-y4d1z]

@@nukekidontheblock8349 I think there's also a lot of historical aspect to it. Florence, Milan, Venice etc, are all in the north. And most of the European trading partners will be north of them (France, Switzerland, Germany, UK etc).

[@LawsonBowling]

I have taught modern Italian history at the university level for many years. The continuing hold of the idea that if only the Italian government spent more (and that is what it means, whatever the euphemism) on "the South," the South would become "equal" to the North. And no matter how many lira, or euros, that have been expended, the fantasy lives on (because there is money in it--for some). There are all sorts of reasons that different areas in large countries exhibit different levels of economic development. And, change is possible--the southeastern United States has very much narrowed the gap between itself and other regions of the USA. But when you remember the seemingly endless talk about "Italy's South," not to mention all the money the DC spent to buy votes there, it's just hard to stomach the same old script.

[@AaronOkeanos]

I think the system is fine. The problem are the people and parties running. They are only interested in themselves and/or in their region. The instability of the system is only reflecting this. Find better leaders because the current proposal is not fixing the problem it fixes the consequenes in favor of bad leaders who want to win easily.

[@wendyreed9682]

Well nobody else has managed it! It just remains to be seen.....

[@warrik3958]

Love how hate makes people vote against their own intrest😂

[@cyancat8633]

The bull of wrath is blinded by the red of the cape after all

[@Carlottamarta]

great video!

[@GP-qn5sx]

well if they retun the 400 million liras they stole and the industry im ok with it

[@vixcontango]

Good changes👍

[@kfair3331]

6:17 Rome ❌ Rom ✅

[@plainpaper4829]

haven't watched this video yet, but yes, it will backfire by a lot

[@Lucas_Ficz]

If you want to decentralize regional taxes and allow each region to keep their own you better just emancipate the south and build a wall at the new borders. The south-north exodus that this bill would usher is without precedents

[@dinomarchioli3650]

Can't undo 60+ years of socialism in 1 year. She is doing great - thank you...

[@marcotaticchi5343]

If you interview 100 Italians, 80 of them will tell you: 1) Yes, we do need something to avoid political instability (unfortunately we had about 70 Governments in 70 years of Republic) 2) No, we do not need to give more power to the Regions (Managing Covid was a mess because every Regional Governor wanted to decide by theirselves without central coordination)

[@nicolek4076]

If you're going to report on a foreign country, look up the pronunciation of the various names. Padania is pronounced as you do. Italian pronunciation is completely regular, by stress VERY often not on the penultimate syllable..

[@123_1]

Rewarded winner means: grip of power forever... Just look at Orbanistan!

[@CaFe73100]

or the UK?

[@123_1]

@@CaFe73100 Both are failures

[@zbynekurbanek3345]

why shouldnt a democratic win be rewarded?

[@rubbishrabble]

Hungary is 9.604 out of 745 million. That's like saying make Austria smaller.

[@rolandowagner7775]

Nationalist leaders like Orban and Meloni are enormously popular in their own country for a reason. They aren't globalist and EU shills that destroy their own country with millions of third world invaders (spurned on my the globalists) to please WEF demons. They put their country first. What a CONCEPT!

[@stevenhombrados1530]

Very interesting!

[@Ruddpocalypse]

7:00 holy fuck, they really are the successors to Mussolini

[@Nome_utente_generico]

For real you believd this propaganda?

[@lucapolidori8817]

Yes they are. It's just a different form of fascism, more tied to our time, but still fascism.

[@sgassocsg]

Troll. Chinese troll, NKPD troll.

[@alexurfantasy]

Vehnehto not vinito lol , greetings from a Latino in NYC

[@mrantipatia1872]

I'm Italian. In the South, NOT even some members of the majority (FI - Forza Italia) DO want this "Italian way for Federalism", because it simply is a way of allowing richer regions to do whatever they want. But we won't allow them to win. No pasaran

[@rezzoc91]

My problem is that some people instead of targeting the real problems of this law they are using points like "they will be allowed to learn dialects at school" which should be instead a good thing. Why is the Italian left an enemy of minority languages in Italy?

[@JonM-ts7os]

Get a job.

[@benpuljak2304]

More autonomy is great. If southern Italy can't help itself than the north shouldn't have to bail them out.

[@milantoth6246]

Yeah, except irl, most revenue the north sends is lost in bureaucracy and corruption anyway. Local authorities are much easier to hold accountable for said corruption than a national/federal government is.

[@shafsteryellow]

Is it not better to run your own economy?

[@wildfire9280]

The divide was historically so bad the resident racists of the era sought to make “south Italian” a race unto itself… Coincidentally, Italian-Americans (largely from the south) have done far better outside of Italy than within it.

[@neptune1525]

Hi. Is Rome as rich as the north or as poor as the south? If any Italians can answer me this 😊😊

[@Federico-je1yr]

it's a mix. Not too poor but also not too rich.

[@nper]

Rome area has a high gpg per capita, but the rest of the region Lazio is more similar to the rest of the south

[@shaunperth]

I live only 35 km from Rome in Lazio and it definitely is not rich and most folks not wealthy

[@FrankeNamensKarim]

I was many times in rome, from my experience the touristic parts are pretty rich and there are some other rich areas, but the rest is pretty poor

[@bear8190]

Hi im from Rome, i can say that the city in the center is rich but the rest of the region is poor

[@joythought]

3.40ish: Perhaps you meant "catapulted" rather than "capitulated". Very different outcome for Meloni.

[@hishamalaker491]

Aren't most Italian Americans from Southern Italy.

[@ad_astra468]

Yes, while most Argentinian Italians are from Northern Italy.

[@shafsteryellow]

​@@ad_astra468damn the southerners got the win their

[@socialistrepublicofvietnam1500]

Specifically because southern Italy was way poorer than northern Italy

[@Andreas-pj6np]

No, by now they are all americans, notbitalians.

[@Bergamot88]

Most portuguese immigrants come from the north, or the islands. They left for better opportunities

[@thedude9014]

Nope she can’t , she won’t . She ll make it much worse

[@rheffner3]

There is nothing here in Italy that needs to be fixed. Life is good. The national government means nothing to the average Italian. It is all about family and village. Good food and fashion. Friendship. Who ever is the PM makes no difference to the average Italian.

[@oscaresposito1433]

😂

[@Antreus]

People don’t know the history as to why the north is more prosperous: it’s because of the civil war in the south that occurred before the Reorfanization of the peninsula, but also they moved all of the south’s rails northward. Railroads came to southern Italy first when it was the Kingdom of Two Sicilia. They lost all their rail tech , it was robbed, and it became easier to industrialize the north because of its proximity to Europe markets

[@rashan112]

You forgot to mention how the League also was caught red handed taking about 60 millions of euros from Russia government. I think it is a very important thing to remember, in the grand scheme of things

[@AaronOkeanos]

Really? Putin fingerprints are everywhere Europe, America, Asia doesn't matter. He is a curse to the planet. At least this explains why Meloni wants to stop the Ukraine-support. She is payed to do this.

[@theteamxxx3142]

PD gets soros money , 5 stelle gets china moneys , the ex PD secretary spent 11 millions for masks that never arrived in 2021 for the Lazio region and many more

[@BlahAnger]

Past me to future me; "Why has nothing changed???"

[@ThePhiphler]

For how many years have this transfer from North to South been going? Has it fixed the problems in the South?

[@cotechino905]

Im afraid since the unification

[@cazwalt9013]

Nope

[@hello20490]

Central governament consistently invested less in the south than the north so of course no, the problem was never fixed. What a surprise right?

[@louiscypher4186]

The transfer of wealth has never been designed to fix the problems. It's always been about mitigating the worst of it.

[@chilloutcentral2097]

In reality, wealth has been sucked out of the south for a very long time

[@JWentu]

0:37... you have some problem with Italy's map here. The northernmost region, called "Trentino-AltoAdige", has been split in two and you gave Trentino to nearby Lombardia region (the one with Milano)

[@francescomasiero7285]

It's correct, Trentino and Alto Adige are quite different

[@gabriele1695]

@@francescomasiero7285yes but Trentino isn’t a part of Lombardy.

[@DaDunge]

0:30 Eh... the split between north an south goe sback a lot longer than unificaiton. It goes back to the disolution of the western roman empires. The north became a number of small polities. Where the south more or less always was under foriegn control.

[@dadaistaingegniere]

North Italy was not on foreign control? Hahahahaha!! You have serious historical issues.

[@DaDunge]

@@dadaistaingegniere Differet historical control.

[@valentinafuffa535]

almost looks like many smaller administrative regions are more effective than a central government would you look at that

[@dadaistaingegniere]

@@valentinafuffa535 Fuffa... do you realise the huge increased taxes in municipalities and provincies in the last decades and that the euro inflation is provoked by governments and it benefits politicians only? Italy is a russian doll of corruption, it doesn't matter if you see a smaller doll with different drawings and colors, the frame is always the same. Healthcare was a national service then, it was "devolved" to Regions, and seemed to work at the beginning because there were inefficiencies cut, but after 5 years the deficit of the state and regions continue to grow. If socialising economic activities would be a good thing so the USSR had never collapsed.

[@julienmercier2114]

It’s funny how much room the microphone takes on the screen. You can almost hide behind it.

[@Leptospirosi]

As an Italian, I can say that 100years (1924/2024) of extensive redirection of wealth from the north to the south of the country, clearly has not worked: the differences have never shrunk despite the state encouragement to move highly productive plants from the north to the south, fully subsidized and paid for by citizen taxes. Everything moved to the south turned unproductive and often a burden for the state, as what was making huge profits in the north turned into high deficit welders in the south, in exchange for "working positions". You cannot fight an infrastructural handicap to competitiveness, as geography cripples any effort. The Rise of the Legal Nord, as a coalition of "Lega Lombarda" and "Liga Veneta" in the eighties was not driven just by the desire to split, but as a byproduct of the real, raw numbers, as 80% of the members of the Parliament, from 1965 to 1990 were coming from the South, leading to a misrepresentation of national interest in Rome, despite the south accounting for less then 1/3 of the country population and may be 20% of the GDP. Mafia infiltration was rampant and wealth redistribution was uncontrolled (rainfall), where useless grand infrastructures were built and managed by local politicians and mafia members fully funded by the Italian Taxpayers (they were called "Cattedrali nel Deserto" or "Cathedral into the Desert"). At the turn of the century, many things changed and a degree of autonomy have been given to Regions, now responsible for local financing and to endorsed to ask for specific funding by the state on specific needs, rather then being at the receiving side of an "open tap" line: public health and resource management is now regional. This was also merit of the staunch opposition if the Lega Nord to the old Rome-Centeic system inherited by the Sabaudian State. In the 10s and 20s the Lega Lombarda party has shifted to a more Federal conception of the state, like Germany and USA, gaining votes from the South in the process. The old MSI, once a staunch defender of the centralized approach and the most vocal opposer to the Lega Nord ideas, went through a similar transformation, changing to Alleanza Nazionale and diluting the most centralistic ideas, as Italy turned into a more federal (fiscally) shaped state. When the two parties, Alleanza Nazionale and Lega Nord fused into the single political entity "PDL", with Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia in the early 10s, they were no more what they had been in the XX century and evolved into more modern parties. The introduction of the Euro posed new challenges and what was a originally an anti-Rome sentiment in the Lega Nord become an "Anti-Bruxelles" narrative, and with the dissolution of the PDL, the old Lega Nord became the party Lega. In the same way, the Post Fascist (Fascism is also a type of policy approach, not just a historical movement tied to a specific man's actions; under this view, Russia is currently a Fascist country despite not being openly a dictatorship.) MSI, still tied to the ideas of WWI, and the Risorgimental "Sacrality of the State", shifted to more traditional "right wing" positions, with conservative ideas and a strong accent on public security, while keeping its roots to a more "Social friendly" approach then the USA Republicans or the French Goullists". After Alleanza Nazionale got fused into the Center-Right PDL, the last vestiges of the old MSI were lost, as many of the most right winged politicians had seceded into the MSI-DS and slowly disappeared from the political scene; the emerging party we have now, the FdI, is more historically then ideologically related to its ave, most of its current members being born "after" the party shift and never been part of the old system of the Sixties and Seventies

[@irtakus]

The problems you are describing with the wealth redirection seem to stem from corruption though? Bavaria (in Germany) was pretty much an agrarian society in the first half of the last century, but consistent wealth redirection from the richer northern regions turned it into one of the most advanced ones. Contrast that with the new states in the east of Germany which have similar problems like you describe. This is a failure of policy not a failure of the concept.

[@Leptospirosi]

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​@@irtakus not really: corruption is always an effect, not a cause of economic depression. If a citizen sees clear opportunities to do better on his own, it will fight; if he sees no future, he will bargain for support from corrupt people in power. Bavaria was agrarian, but it's located exactly in the middle of Europe. Once the Industrial Revolution started, it was in an ideal position to grow. It was at the crossroads between the north Germany, France, Bohemia, Austria and the Italian plains, an ideal production centre for an industrial nation. Corruption plays a big part in the south, as everywhere money flows uncontrolled, but the problem is geography there. The South of Italy was BY FAR the richest province in Roman times, and even up to the Dark Ages, as the Byzantines and the Ummayads were the motor of the western economy it was in the middle of the good exchange of the known world. As the Mediterranean Basin lost importance, between the Ottoman advent and the Industrial Revolution, as western Economy gained traction, the Padan Valley became the richest region of all Europe, sought after and fought over for 1000years between the HRE and France, while the South declined. Already in Longobard times, a few Lombard Dukes were richer then Charlemagne himself, and this happened just in 2 centuries, since the ruins of the Gothic wars and the Justinian Plague. Without the south, Italy would be richer than Swiss, to put things in perspective, free to redirect its huge GDP into growth. The Milan, Venice and Florence triangle became an Economic powerhouses during the middle age, loaning Kings money that kept entire countries afloat, and they still are a sizable force when it comes to industrial output. Rome lives because of its political significance, but Naples and the cities below it are too far away from the centre of Europe and too disconnected by geography and distance compared to the north, so anything built there would not be competitive compared to the well connected north, when it comes to infrastructures and production costs. Mafia also has no interest in helping the South to improve: the bridge on the Messina Strait would greatly enhance mobility and good transports but is actively opposed by the locals, as poor and subsidized citizens are easier to control with fake pensions, made up jobs and worthless employments in exchange for votes and support. The construction of a fast artery between Salerno and Reggio Calabria took almost 50 years which is nonsense unless something shady was going on. Cortuption is a consequence, not a cause of the problem as it thrives in economically depressed areas: Russia, Moldova, Georgia, Turkey, Armenia, China, most of the Arab world. Everywhere there is misery, corruption grows. In the end, unless the Mediterranean Basin regains relevance the south is just a backwater of the EU, and I don't mean "relevance" for goods trades, as anything can be easily unloaded in Triest, Ravenna, Ancona and Genoa, but rather a flourishing economy generated on both side of the pond, and this is the reason of the attention the Government is pushing through improving the economy of Tunisia Libya and Algery.

[@drjordan5706]

@@Leptospirosi Good comment, could've made your point clearer in less sentences tho xd

[@Marco-tb1uj]

sorry, but they sent money and forgot that and industrial area to thrive has to get some decent infrastracture? Now, explain to me how is it possible that in 2024 below naples we still don´t have any high speed rail and why the hell in the past 25 years nothing was done to promote tourism. Did we forget the massive wast of money we used for rimini in the 80s anbd then all the venetian and ligurian coast while we have campania, puglia, calabria and sicilia that had to rely on themself? Look at svimez research in the data. There were some conditions that were blowing the money received from the south out of proportion. by looking at the expenses and doing some proper calculation it was seen that the south was actually not a net receiver as portraied usually.

[@dadaistaingegniere]

What you say is and old tale. Savoy unified the territories, stealed southern deposits to pay war debts. But then they endorse as representatives in the Parliament and the judges in the courts all the good fellows. Read "The Leopard" of Lampedusa, it's clear and true. Italians northerners just don't figure out that after the II WW they are the southerners of Germany, Switzerland and Austria. There's no difference of working culture between italians when they stay abroad.

[@CommonSwindler]

Italy, especially southern Italy hasn’t been a well-governed state since the days of Federico II. His death in 1250 meant that Italian statehood was killed in its formative years, and it has never recovered really-and won’t; history determines everything.

[@paul1979uk2000]

Italy's problems seem a bit like the UK but in the UK, there's a north-south divide with no easy fix. But I sense the problems in Italy are worse with the division and corruption. Can these problems be solved? Of course they can, but a lot of work and political will is needed to solve these problems and we are talking decades of work not years to really repair this damage, this is the case for both the division in Italy and the UK. In any case, Italy trying to blame the EU for its problems is the same mistake the UK did, many in the UK, especially the north blamed the EU for the problems in the UK, the UK ended up realising after Brexit that the EU wasn't the problem and that the real issues were with the government and the institutions in the country, I feel it's the same in Italy, basically, stop using the EU as a scapegoat for the problems in a country as that isn't solving the problem, much deeper reforms, a reduction in corruption and changes to the institution to make the economy more dynamic are needed. As the UK found out, blaming the EU for all the problems is sidestepping the issue and not solving the problem, Italy have been doing the same mistake, and in the case of the UK, it only dawns on them once the UK was out of the EU and they couldn't blame the EU for all the problems in the UK, I hope Italy doesn't fall for that same trap that some in the far right want to push, because it will only make things worse for Italy, in fact, more so then it's doing for the UK as the UK is seen as more stable than Italy. Anyway, I'm more in favour of regional governance of the regions depending on how it's done and implemented, but richer regions should always help out the poorer regions so to not allow a massive imbalance in the country, but that help should be conditional on reforms and change, basically, the rich northern regions continue to help the southern regions but under the condition that the southern regions help themselves and that should be the case in all countries, after all, letting regions in a country fall behind isn't good for anyone in the country and there are a lot of economic benefits to be had by helping them to develop, but these regions have to be pushed to develop, so no free handouts and continue to help them but with conditions. As for devolution, there are some benefits to that, who after all is going to listen and be more connected to the local regions more, a regional leader or state leader? The closer the leaders are to the people, the more likely they are to listen to local concerns compared to a national government, but with that said, there are many things that are better done at a national level or EU level, it's really up to us to find the right balance that works for all, but clearly, the current system in Italy and many other countries isn't working as the system feels too detached from the population and there concerns, hence the right of the far right in Europe and North America,

[@roccociccone597]

The only Italians blaming the EU for our problems are the uneducable ones that keep voting for people like Meloni. Be it in the north or the south.

[@BritanniaItalia]

Im half southern Italian and half English and I can say they are not even closely the same in any way. The divide in England is far far better than the divide in Italy. The italian situation is much more economically unstable and the south is still economically far far far poorer than the north, even with consideration of the population difference.

[@carlodefilippi6914]

0:35 what happened to Lombardy? Looks it was stretched by the hair 😂

[@User-r5g5f]

Both decisions seem like they will backfire badly on Lega. The former seems to be an admission that the party will never be more than a coalition partner, unless the country is somehow broken up.

[@sao9995]

I don't recall Salvini having any reason to apologize to Southerners. The North produces, and the South needs--period!

[@antoninodarioconti6347]

I am a medic from southern italy that worked for a year in northen Italy (Milano and Emilia-romagna). I shall give you my thoughts about it. The most valuable resource in every country is not oil, industry, agricolture etc. It is people. We have countries' economies without oil and industries. Some countries go on without a good agricolture. But people? Have you ever seen a country with an economy but without any people inside it? Yes, me neither. The plan to not let southern italy develop, but to just stay there only for strategic interests is unfolding. Many people in the north have origines from the southern part of the country. In the hospitals I worked, more than half of the nurses/medics came from the south. A third of the patients are people from southern italy that want to access better structures in the north. In the north there is an hidden will to keep the south poor so that my people keep emigrating there. Because, even if some of them despise us, they deeply know that we are the most similar people in the world to them. Italy is not divided by language (All of our dialects have latin origins, all of italy speaks italian), not by religion (all of italy is catholic), not by culture. So, to fill the gaps in their ranks, they prefer to force us to go there. If the south had more jobs, it would be terrible news. They are already suffering in shortages of people that work (In the hospitals I worked in it was astonishing, there are no medics around, and those few there are from the south). These reforms are necessary for that. Otherwise, the economies in the north would die. Add the natality crises in italy and...there. You have the picture.

[@vittorioianora2010]

Più verità in queste parole non so dove trovarle, poi mi hai appena fatto ricordare che tutti le grandi menti di questo paese, intese come medici, ingegneri e tante altre professioni, sono meridionali. Che poi questa situazione ha fatto trasformare la Lega, che agli albori era un Movimento 5 Stelle nordista, un partito bugiardo come gli altri che ha cominciato ad odiare gli immigrati e l'Europa solo per non far capire a quelli deli sud che votano la lega che l'unica cosa che vogliono è vedere il sud sprofondare per non perdere voti, e per di più questa legge non farà morire il solo sud ma anche il nord perché con i servizi che non funzioneranno al sud tutti i meridionali se ne andranno al nord e, tempo che tutti i leghisti di adesso possano morire pieni soldi, andrà tutto allo scatafascio perché le regioni del nord collasseranno e l'unica opzione sarà il privato che costerà troppo e quindi tutti noi moriremo.

[@hsgame4088]

Beautifully explained. Thank you.

[@seejur]

The problem is that most of the funds send to the South these past 60 years or so (or more) have utterly failed to develop it. Not because the Southern people are lazy, but because the connections between politicians in Rome and the organized crime in all those regions made it extra sure that money went to their own friends instead of the development of said regions. I think letting each regions keep their taxes is a good way to make sure those little shits do not get their money anymore and force people to really check how public funds are allocated and spent. A parallel would be Ford in the US. When protectionism was in place complacency took place and their car slowly become bad, and finally when free market entered the US car market they were forced to improve. My opinion is that in the short run the South will suffer from it. Probably a lot. But in the long run it might be the step that force the public administration in the South to reform instead of being complacent. What I know for sure is that if billions and billions of Euro did not fix the South in this part century, they will not fix it in the next one.

[@albertofuzzi7200]

I've never seen this side of things. Amazing, you're extremely brilliant. It's true that the North is suffering from the lack of people, since most of the most skilled or instructed workers go search for a job elsewere. Forcing southerners to migrate to replenish the dwindling lifeblood of society and economy is yet another sign of the incompetence of the ruling class and the ones who vote for it.

[@AbraXas-bi9ux]

@@antoninodarioconti6347 I found a lot of generalization in your words. there are minorities in Italy that dont have Italian as mother tongue. being one of them, I have felt a bit excluded from your narrative. what is still a mistery to me is why the Southern people do not do anything against the arcaic structures (i.e. mafia) that keeps them living in almost third-country-level conditions

[@fabiopaolobarbieri2286]

There is a major mistake in your map. Trentino is not in Lombardy.

[@bellicapelli8155]

Fun fact about Italy: in the public secror nominal wages are the same everywhere, but you pay 1200 euros to rent a flat in Milan, while you pay half in Palermo.

[@mr.archivity]

Even less that half.

[@byunbaekhyun2283]

why? is palermo a bad city? (like crime-ridden?) genuinely asking as a non-italian.

[@alu6215]

​@@byunbaekhyun2283The regional economic inequality in italy is huge. I don't think there are many countries with comparably uneven wealth distribution in their territory

[@bellicapelli8155]

@@byunbaekhyun2283 nah, Milan is worse crime-wise. It's cheaper because there are few/no job opportunities, which is the reason the south is is generally cheaper in nominal terms, but the wages are also lower, you generally have less purchasing power, unless you're a public worker: in this case you have a much bigger purchasing power compared to the north since the wages are the same.

[@malogibeaux4946]

@@alu6215 "I don't think there are many countries with comparably uneven wealth distribution in their territory" Laughing in Parisian.

[@9marcao9]

Good article. Have you never consider to explain Gattopardesco to a non italian?