Will This Lawsuit Be THE END Of Moshing At Shows?

[@TankTheTech]

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[@annakissed3226]

Speaking of money. Perhaps bands need to carry the same sort of insurance as you do for doing dangerous sports. And Insurance company takes a bet based on statistics on what a person needs to pay against the risk of a payout. So that if you want to go into the moshe pit, you have to show you carry insurance to cover any payout or your at risk of going bankrupt or not being covered for any injuries you suffer.

[@CountryMouseCityCrimes]

Stoked to see that Frontieres album on the wall. You just got cooler.

[@ShooterMcKevin1]

Big fan of moshing at shows, but some people have unfortunately found a way to justify punching other people in the face and get mad when they get hit back.

[@KelticKabukiGirl]

We all knew the etiquette in the 90s and 2K pits, it leaving the underground attracts the wrong people.

[@katiesnyder6296]

I love moshing when it feels like a community (which thankfully has always been my experience) I was running so fast in a pit and slipped because someone spilled a drink, 3 people stopped to help me up and make sure I was alright before we all started moshing again

[@KelticKabukiGirl]

@@katiesnyder6296 Everyone actually part of a real Metal/Hardcore scene show knows to help people and proper etiquette. Its those in between and mainstream band crowds that seem to not know to help people up, or not be dicks.

[@KelticKabukiGirl]

@@katiesnyder6296 I pulled my groin that way... I hated wet linoleum floors...

[@mephisst]

@@katiesnyder6296 that is something, each time I'm in the pit, this is exactly how people react. If someone's off their fit, or lost something, it's a community call to action.

[@doomslayer2754]

No fan should ever "expect" to get hurt at a venue regardless the genre of music or band playing. Unless you voluntarily go in an active pit you shouldn't be in danger.

[@rolithesecond]

Not even in an active pit do I expect to get hurt, as in intentionally

[@m.o.d.5784]

Then stand not in the middle of the stage in the 1 to 10th row. Expecting…well, no, but there is a chance. Otherwise, visit a Celine Dione show….

[@brandonerwin7031]

Expecting a risk and assuming the potential of a risk are two different things. Anyone who goes to any show and they are on the floor with a bunch of other people who are jumping up and down, should understand there is a risk involved. You don't need to be in the pit for a crowd surfer to land on your head coming back to front. This happens all the time to shows I've been to. Unless you stand all the way in the back, you should assume the potential of bodily harm. Intentional or not.

[@colonelhstinkmeaner8547]

Tbh, it's part of the shows. I've had crowd surfers dropped on my head, and I got hit on my lower back by someone at the pit. It's going to happen if you don't like people being next to you. Don't go to the shows or just hang around the back or balcony.

[@Aughtel]

​@@colonelhstinkmeaner8547not much of a Mosher, so can confirm there's usually a place off to the sides where we hang out

[@_NoDrinkTheBleach]

I've been in several venues like that. There are no safe spaces, unless you count the bathroom or standing outside with smokers.

[@jsimsgt96]

My local spot for sure lol. ESP hardcore shows.

[@patrickglover9566]

We played Mohawk place right after the tour we did with y’all in EC last year. They were EXTREMELY adamant to us about their no moshing policy. I was told directly from the staff that I’m not allowed to tell the audience to do anything, as well as we’re not allowed to do anything, or else the shows done immediately.

[@TankTheTech]

Correct me if I'm wrong, your show would have been after this stage diving situation event occurred, right?

[@patrickglover9566]

@@TankTheTechYup! Ours was in June.

[@dhughes636]

Would never play that venue ever again, your fans dictate policy, the ticket purchasers dictate activity, taking away their good time ends the whole business

[@beforemanhattan]

Mohawk Place is actually closing now.

[@dhughes636]

@ every venue that tries to ban pits should immediately close

[@Jdkicked]

I hate that this person is getting so much hate online for sueing, they arent sueing because they hate the band or anything, they just want medical expenses covered and this is the only way to really do that in this coutnry with the multi-million dollar medical bills our system has caused. This cant be the first time someone sued over getting hurt while moshing, if they use this case as the excuse to stop moshing, thats all it is: an excuse. There have been "no moshing" signs for decades, they didnt put themselves up for no reason so this cant be the first legal issue about it. Bands do need to protect themselves by trying to become legally seperate entities from their individual members (doesnt prevent all legal responsibilities but it can help)

[@TankTheTech]

I haven't seen one person giving her hate outside of some people making the generic "should have stayed out of the pit" statements. I think when I filmed this on Twitch, we were all in agreeance that the singer was at fault and what happened to her was horrible. Also, yeah, she needs her bills paid for, because the GoFundMe was a nice thought at the very least, but $88,000 doesn't make a dent in US Medical Care when it comes to spinal injuries.

[@TheOmegaRiddler]

The fact is, she had temporary paralysis. I get the impression from an interview that a family friend gave, that she can't walk or if she can, it's not very well. It is said she is limited to being in a room and can't really go places. She'll only deserve hate if she's claiming she didn't know the risks because that family friend said that she has been to multiple shows from that band and has been in their mosh pits. I think the band is going to be let out due to the actions of the band after the injury. Personally going to the hospital with her, and donating $10,000 to her gofundme. I think the judge is going to dismiss them from the lawsuit because that would probably be viewed as a settlement, leaving the venue and the promoter pointing the finger at each other.

[@lollirotzombie3805]

@Jdkicked I mean.. did we all forget when Randy Blythe was imprisoned in Europe and couldn't make/barely made it to Knotfest? Now that I think about it, could be part of why there are "no moshing" rules in the US when there are especially issues with just how "great" our Healthcare is... Could anybody expound on that?

[@joekruger1857]

​@lollirotzombie3805 yeah but Randy actually pushed someone off the stage and they hit their head and died. He was getting pissed that people were climbing all over to stage dive and getting in his face.

[@withinthrall1445]

@@lollirotzombie3805 Randy's situation was very different, and not a moshing thing. Plus I remembering seeing no moshing signs around that time as well. Many venues didn't want the risk of a lawsuit.

[@Kurenai666]

Spinal injury could also mean being paralyzed from the waist down. Thankfully she'll make a full recovery according to the article, but you can imagine the costs. So while I agree that you have to assume some risks (broken nose, black eye, cracked rib or something), an injury to this extent is another thing. Someone has to pay the bills. Sucks all around. There should be insurances that cover stuff like this for bands and concert promoters.

[@TankTheTech]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm on her side of the argument here. She got severely injured by what I'm guessing is 180+lbs just jumping on her with no warning and has to go through rehab for who knows how long. And most concert promoters DO have insurance. This lawsuit could very well be going after the insurance payout.

[@ExarchGaming]

from other articles i read she's far more injured, it said she was paralyzed from the neck down except for one arm, and apparantly she can only communicate via texting.

[@TheOmegaRiddler]

That's not what the family friend said in the news video linked to the article. She's limited to a room implying paralysis or limited movement. Apparently she is confined to her house because of this. Her doctor is apparently saying they can't really give a full diagnosis because of how bad the injury is right now. My guess is they're still running tests and she's in rehab to see if they can avoid surgery.

[@teijaflink2226]

I think the bands and venues should be very clear if there will be moshing. As a female I want to stand at the front of the shows too but I would have zero change if a big dude landed on me, we both would probably get injured.

[@fritzallen9123]

​It is unfortunate she was injured at the show, but if she fell off a ride at a Disney park and broke her spine she wouldn't be able to sue if she signed up for Disney+. In the fine print of the "i acknowledge and agree to terms" it says you wave the right to litigation. Which means you can't sue over anything even death. The crazy part is, how many people do you think have D+? If live nation, ticketmaster​ and so on did this when you make an account, we can keep the lawsuits at bay and keep thrashing @@TankTheTech

[@toeman89]

I've been at festivals that tried to control mosh pits from getting too rowdy. I remember at the Shindig Festival in Baltimore when Gogol Bordello played, the concert security brought up their biggest dude (dude was like 6 ft 7in, 300lb of muscle) he was posted up on the edge of the mosh pit with a couple other guards. Whenever he thought someone was getting too wild in the pit, he reached in with one hand literally tossed them out of the pit like someone throwing away a banana peel (one of the dudes he tossed out was wearing a banana costume ironically lol). It did keep the pit from becoming too wild and was also hilarious to watch this Hulk looking dude just tossing people around like dolls.

[@miguel213]

Sounds like the right dude for the job lol

[@asalas.photography]

I think there's a line between moshing and a grown man throwing themselves into a crowd of what seems to be (given the genre) mostly younger fans. Photographing these shows over and over, mostly younger girls move toward the front and are not expecting to be dived on. In that sort of situation you don't have time to brace yourself and taking on that much weight I can see why she was injured. As a front man, you should be assessing the situation before pulling something off like that.

[@Silber7]

Very much this. That guy seems zo have just jumped onto a girl from what it looks like - judging by that one clip possibly very quickly without warning or looking himself. maybe there hardly were even enough people able to catch him there in that moment? Just guessing and going by the little information seen here. Also comment at 4:30 Doesn't seem like a 'regular moshing' problem to me...

[@brujo1099]

Moshing isn’t real. Pits are. Y’all are so new to this you don’t know what our culture even is.

[@asalas.photography]

@@brujo1099 been a musician 10 years and a music photographer for 7 years. What you are saying does not make any sense, please remove your head from your posterior and actually read what we are saying.

[@gingermadman]

Guy is 6'5 and purposefully aimed for the smallest girl he could at a fucking pop punk show.

[@Desteny6]

Afaik the singer did this before aswell. At a show like this, I'd be taken by surprise if he just jumped randomly. At a hardcore show, you expect people to do that all the time, like Tank said. At a show like this, I've never seen the person in question jumping without any kind of notice to the crowd. I've been to many shows and with music like this, everyone knows that it's best for all (the crowdsurfer and the crowd) to make sure that everyone knows whats going to happen - e.g. the crowdsurfer will usual signal with their hands for people to move closer if neccessary and then give a little time for the people to be ready. Blindly jumping into crowds from a stage is something you'll only do in a very select range of genres.

[@livierae95]

As a small woman who goes to small venues, sometimes there is no such thing as staying out of the pit. Trust me, I want nothing to do with it. I've had my husband and other guys move in front of me to protect me in the back of venues. I think the most we'll see out of this is all venues putting up no moshing/surfing/diving signs. Whether they enforce them or not is to be seen. It could be that everyone has to sign some kind of waiver saying we understand the risks of going to concerts like we had to do with covid.

[@younglobwedge]

Bird isn't a small "woman"

[@livierae95]

@@younglobwedge I’m just saying my experience. There are plenty of small men who wouldn’t fare well in the pit either.

[@EGS_Media]

The lawsuit just needs to focus on stage diving. With crowd surfing, you're generally warned someone is coming. With moshing, you can see it going on. Stage divers just suddenly do it and nobody is prepared.

[@mtgguiltfeeder4111]

This this this!!! Stage diving is the most dangerous because of the downward force. A crowd surfer can land on other people but the force isnt nearly the same. You dont have the same time to prepare or protect yourself, especially so close to the stage.

[@lza5735]

Lol okay nerd.

[@snuffcore9686]

I'll bite... what's the difference between stage diving and crowd surfing?

[@strogaa]

@@snuffcore9686 Crowdsurfing you normally get lifted up by some people and lay backwards or forwards on the hands of the people. If you don't behave like an absolute idiot as a crowdsurfer and the crowd stands tight enough, it's completely save for everybody. Stagediving you jump from stage onto the crowd, which is supposed to catch you up. It's way more risky, cause the crowd has to catch your weight AND your fall, way more impact all of a sudden than when they just lift and hold up a crowdsurfer. I've seen way more people getting injured while stagediving (divers and crowd) than crowdsurfing or even in the rudest moshpit.

[@alexelrod242]

I got drop kicked in the lip by a stage diver at a knocked loose show, not entirely surprised. But I was way off to the side, leaning up against a building support pole, 20 feet away from the pit, and this dude stage dove feet first right into my face. I had a chunk of lip hanging off my face and a blood soaked shirt.

[@SergeantNemo]

That twitch comment "you could be on the toilet and get hit there" made me chuckle a fair bit 😂

[@gaellawyer8779]

I hear you on the how do you enforce a no stage diving rule from a music industry professional like yourself perspective. But there is something you are potentially overlooking from a purely legal standpoint (I’m a lawyer and a metalhead). You don’t try to enforce the rule during the show. Rather, the way to enforce such a ban is actually ahead of time. You tell every band, these are the rules that you directly have control over (e.g., no encouraging a wall of death, no calling for crowd surfers, etc.). And these are the subset of rules that you have control over that are so important to us, that if you break these rules, we will consider that a material breach of the contract and will not pay you for the show, and you include no stage diving by band members in that rule. Obviously the effectiveness of such a rule depends on how big the band is. If you tried to do that to Five Finger Death Punch, Metallica, Disturbed, etc. They could say GTFO, we’ll play somewhere else where there is no risk of us not getting paid. But a band like Trophy Eyes probably has less leverage and has to play where they can. Plus, the reality is the venues those types of bands play in tend to be significantly more dangerous (in large part because of how tiny they are and not being able to “stay out of the pit.”) And the no moshing, no crowd surfing signs are only partial protection. Depending on the jurisdiction (remember basically all injury cases are governed by state law, so how it is apply is different in each state), they are likely a good protection from a lawsuit if the person hurt was in the pit or crowd surfing (e.g., I was surfing, someone lost their grip and I fell and my head hit the floor). They are NOT a protection against a lawsuit by someone like Ms. Price who really is a bystander to that conduct. There, a lawyer could say “my client felt it was actually safe to be near the front of the stage because of the no moshing policy. The venue’s failure to enforce their own rules actually increased the risk of injury because it gave my client a false sense of security.” And I can tell you, in lots of jurisdictions, that would probably be a pretty good argument.

[@apl2606]

If the crowd isn't very dense or not paying attention you must not stage dive. That's reckless indeed. Make sure there are enough (strong) people to catch you and that they are aware that you are going to jump.

[@madjock-ig5bv]

I see a lot of fellow non Americans making comments about it being "typical in America" to sue. This is quite often true, however one thing a lot of folks may not be thinking about is that if something similar happened in just about any other country the person wouldn't now have a MASSIVE bill to pay. This person might not have health insurance, and if they have any it might not cover this. If this happened say in the UK, the person would come out of hospital, get social help until fit enough to hopefully get back into work, no chance of that in the US.

[@TankTheTech]

Totally get your point, but it's also "typical in America to sue" BECAUSE our health care is shit. I don't think anyone is judging her for suing, just pointing out how American it is to do because, well, like you said, you kind of have to. Which is a shame.

[@madjock-ig5bv]

@TankTheTech absolutely. It is tragic that someone can be financially ruined by an accident. I wish it was different for folks in the US (I have many good friends there and I have enjoyed some great trips as well following my favourite band on tour) as they deserve better.

[@MinkxiTes]

@@TankTheTech people ARE judging and attacking her because she is suing and typically blaming her, which obviously is total bs, but people are hateful like that

[@patshaughnessy8488]

i use to work at the venue referenced in the lawsuit and played on that stage many times. It's a smaller club [300 cap] and the stage is probably 2-3' off the ground, and there was never much stage diving, there were shows with bigger bands where security cracked down on that and stopped it. It's a terrible situation all around. A girl's life has been changed forever and a beloved venue will be shuttering it's doors.

[@TankTheTech]

Sad situation all around.

[@jeezycreezy4220]

@12:00 The first time I saw Flogging Molly, a mosh pit broke out during the song "The Worst Day Since Yesterday." Go listen to it and try to imagine moshing to that. Having experienced that, I can totally see a pit breaking out at that kind of show, wether it makes sense or not.

[@TheOmegaRiddler]

I saw a pit break out to The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus. I took a few shots to the back from the pit. I honestly didn't think that was a band that had that type of crowd.

[@Garagantua]

Well.. I'd say that likely has something to do with the rest of Flogging Mollys setlist. I've seen people mosh to accoustic pieces - but that was still a smaller pit than during the other songs.

[@cowboystormchaser]

Bruh some of Taylor Swift's stuff is more moshable than that one particular song lol.

[@Frahamen]

I saw the thumbnail and title totally expecting to disagree and complain but turns out it's actually a well thought and nuanced video.

[@DreAdeDcoRpSE]

I was a bouncer at a venu in Hartford CT called "Webster Theater". When I worked there, I don't remember signs that said that, but we did say at the door, "No moshing, no crowed surfing, no stag diving.". If memory serves me, it was also on the ticket in the fine print on the back. There might of been some paper ones that were laminated, I just never paid attention. That band, I agree, I would never expect stage diving or anyything from that style of music.

[@TankTheTech]

Oh I've had many nights at the Webster back in the day. Haha

[@DreAdeDcoRpSE]

@@TankTheTech Oh yeah. I liked that place and liked working there. I left there shortly before Ben Wu's disaperance. I don't know if you ever got to work with him, but he was a good guy and I know many bands liked him.

[@garyr7646]

the signs exist now. it still happens tho.

[@DreAdeDcoRpSE]

@@garyr7646 Yeah, I havn't been there since 2007 when I left. They may have had them, but I was usually floating between the underground and main stage, or dealing with the barricade. I know we said it for liability and I want to say there were signs, I just never paid that much attention. I know we said we didn't allow it, but we did unless we saw someone going too far. But for the most part, if someone when down, they were helped up by others in the pit.

[@bottomofastairwell]

I live in Boston and nearly all the venues here have "no moshing no stage diving" signs. Still happens all the time anyway, so the signs are really there for liability. So if someone DOES get hurt, they can point to the signs and be like "we told you not to, so this is on you"

[@pantboy72]

"Glue crowd to the floor" At a couple UK venues I've been too the carpet is so sticky you practically are glued to the floor if you stay still long enough 😂😂

[@equinox7839]

😂😂😂

[@SulkyKarris]

The "expect to get hurt/ it's your fault if you get hurt" mentality is also very American, I think. Preparing to get injured when attending an event of any kind wouldn't cross my (German) mind at all.

[@danielberger1378]

This 💯 I'm going to shows because I want to see the bands in front of me perform, not because of a bunch of high and/or drunk idiots whose best night is going to be bumping into each other

[@Garagantua]

That's strange. Yeah you shouldn't expect a 90kg guy to just jump on you like it looks like in this case, but if you go into any moshpit, you can't be suprised if you get bruised or maybe even get a bloody lip. Not like this happens to everyone in every pit, but I have both happen to me every once in a while - and yes, that happened in germany.

[@Catsandcamera]

@@Garagantua Of course if you go in the pit you might get hurt, but not just going to a gig. I've been to 100s of shows, I don't pit, so I don't go in expecting to get injured

[@xkyrainnesx]

I remember being at a BMTH show on their sempiternal tour (Scotland) and a crowd surfer landed on one of their crew members. Crew guy broke both his legs, pretty graphic 😬

[@jdkoftinoff]

These kinds of rules were the original inspiration for the song “Safety Dance” by “Men Without Hats” - Ivan Doroschuk was kicked out for “pogo dancing” which was a precursor to moshing !

[@DG-yo3tk]

Did NOT know that about “Safety Dance”… wow. Now “the Politics of Dancing” comes to mind…

[@jdkoftinoff]

@@DG-yo3tk Ivan is still touring now, 40+ years later...Now I want a metal remake of Safety Dance!

[@krymera666x7]

I’m a long time metal fan and have to say I’m not too big on moshing. Moving with the crowd is fine, but I’m really there just to see the show.

[@AsherOvSacrifice]

Agreed

[@BlackCatBritt]

I've been to the Mowhawk Place before- I saw Madina Lake there in 2010 when I was 16. It's TINY and there is zero separation between the crowd on the floor and the stage. My cousin and I actually leaned against the stage in between sets. I've now been to over 100 shows and Mowhawk Place is absolutely the smallest.

[@Peculiarpersuer]

My local venue, for MANY years, has had a 'Enter At Your Own Risk' sign at EVERY entrance and no moshing sings throughout the club, though they allowed moshing anyway. It was for sure just to cover their butts. As far as this case goes, I can't see her not winning.

[@lionfromthenorth4580]

Even in Europe, where they have strict safety regulations on big shows, accidents happen. The Roskilde Festival in Denmark had death casualties during a Pearl Jam show not long ago. Not because of crowd surfing or so, but people pushing from behind, stepping over people lying on the ground. I always have a rule when I go to a show and that is always have a easy way out of there! I brought my 2 daughters (15 and 16) to Sabaton Cruise. A ship with limited capacity to host concerts. 2000 tickets sold (sold out) and everyone wanted to see Sabaton. We found a good place on one side of the stage, but still 1st row. And still easy to get out of there if necessary. My kids and I had a blast!🤘

[@RedRabbitMedias]

If the venue has signs, but never enforces the signs, the signs are meaningless in court.

[@equinox7839]

Just to comment on people saying this happens in the US because she has to cover her medical cost: here in Germany, your health insurance would cover the cost, but they would also try to sue the involved parties to get their money back.

[@APurpleSpy]

I'm local and have photographed left to suffer and tallah along with quite a few local bands there. It is a very small and lax venue from what i have seen. Bands and crowd are basically left to do what they will, i do not remember seeing anyone at any point that looked remotely like security. Also there is talk backed up by some documents that started floating around yesterday that mohawk is shutting down.

[@AnTirKP]

At Rock Circus 2023 (in Netherlands) there was a VERY large sign indicating "No crowd surfing". It was large and obvious enough that I posted a pic of it to Facebook (complete with "sad face" marked up on the image). I did crowdsurf. I got dropped onto my shoulder blade on concrete, resulting in a fractured scapula. This was day 2/3 of the festival, I didn't know that it was broken until I returned home from the event. I NEVER ONCE considered suing the venue / band / people who dripped me because: A. I'm Canadian, not American B. I saw the sign and assumed my own responsibility I can still feel the results of the injury a year later, and it serves as a reminder that shit can happen.

[@Lumbergo]

if there was ever a seriously strict and enforced ban on moshing I would straight up stop going to shows. and I'm not even one of those that pits for an entire set - but sometimes the music just grabs you and you have to go in which is one of the best feelings at a metal show. losing that, I would begin to find many a show so boring and unengaging that I would begin to question why I even went. like you said, it is part of the culture.

[@TankTheTech]

Younger me would agree 100%. I LIVED to go to shows and mosh and go crazy during the bands' set.

[@unai49999]

I sprained my ankle during a electric callboy show this summer... It was worth every second

[@Lumbergo]

@@TankTheTech you're never too old. I turned 40 last year and still jump in the pit at nearly every show I go to. hell, there are people in the scene here who are older than I who still pit. that said, I do understand if you have a prior physical injury that would make moshing a bad idea.

[@Lumbergo]

@@unai49999 yup, you assume the risk but in the end it's up to you if it was worth it or not. I've certainly had plenty of minor injuries in the pit over the years - always was still certainly worth it. hell, I did much more stupid and dangerous shit when I was a teen and in my 20's than moshing, tbh.

[@teewhy6994]

@@Lumbergo So I have to acept X amount of injuries to watch the band from in front of the stage? At some point you understand how effing stupid that is, right?

[@BlackCatBritt]

The Mowhawk Place actually put out a post yesterday on FB that they will likely be closing for good soon. No actual date, just "soon". A lot of the comments were wondering if it was due to this suit, but whoever is posting to the account just said the owner has some "personal issues" (reddit rumors are saying he has a drug problem and it's essentially just the employees even keeping it afloat atm) and refuses to sell the venue, so it will likely just flat out shut down even though several people have offered to buy it. Apparently the owner also owned a neighboring venue called Electric City, which was shut down by the city for code violations.

[@kresimo1]

Damn dude, most dangerous people in the pit are the young ones that know nothing of pit etiquette and are at a show with somewhat 'softer music' and they think 'oh man, I'm gonna do some moshing'. They just aren't around it enough to know what is a good or bad move. I'll take a crowdkiller at a hardcore show anyday over a drunk college frat guy at a butt rock show. maybe just me though.

[@motherfudger6664]

This goes along with my comment, these people aren't at CBGB's 43 years ago and don't know what they're doing...

[@irmiwolf]

for me its the old burly guys who forget that they have 100lbs extra force ready to be delivered straight into my back while I try to enjoy the show I paid for.

[@pickledparsleyparty]

Why sue the venue, though? What are they supposed to have done? And tbh stage diving at that club looked more like leaning into the front row until they pick you up.

[@brycenholmesVI]

This same situation happened in Portland about a year or so ago to a local band called Drift Away.

[@vampking405]

Mohawk is a great venue for small bands and vital to the buffalo scene, unfortunately closing soon partially as a result of this.

[@TankTheTech]

That's a shame to here. It seems like we're losing all of our older independent venues.

[@Watchestoomuch75]

I've played there before. Great venue, the staff was great we were treated well !! Damn shame to hear this. And there where cool places around it to check out, and mingle with different social groups all in one area

[@EricMoranFilms]

I love going to shows. I love the culture, the moshing, crowd surfing - everything. I always assume risk when participating in these things. I even saw trophy eyes a few days after the incident. All that being said: it’s hard to see a 6 foot something guy jumping backwards into the crowd without looking anything other than irresponsible. Also that stage is barely even off the ground so people have no time to even react.

[@bottomofastairwell]

Yeah, a band member stage diving at a show where there's a solid thousand people on the floor, where tons of purple are already surfing and moshing, that's one thing. But at a show with only 200 people? Kind of nuts

[@JeffLynnGuitar]

Here is where I see this going. Venues will continue to post signs as they should to protect themselves. The next thing you are going to see if it hasn't happened already is a clear disclaimer on ticket purchases stating that by purchasing a ticket they waive liability. The next thing is going to be amended contracts being sent back to artists and booking agents stating that if the artist does stage dive or encourages it the venue/promoter can withhold payment to said artist. I used to work at a venue in St Pete and very rarely did we have any serious injuries in the pit, the audiences were respectful enough of each other to keep it contained and not go out of the pit. Sometimes did the pit get a bit to big and affect other people, yes for sure but for the most part no one was seriously injured.

[@aaavellone]

Lawyer's kid here. One thing I've learned from being a lawyer's kid is that since this case is being tried by the state supreme court we already know a few things about the litigation. First, they lost in normal court and are now appealing to a higher court. Second, when you take your case up the ladder of courts it becomes harder and harder to win your case. This is because the next highest court HAS TO take the previous courts ruling into consideration and a lot (or maybe all of the time) of the time the baseline is "you lost and now you are here with a loosing case trying to win something." So I wouldn't worry to much about this being detrimental to the future of moshing or slam dancing at shows. That fake karate stuff though, that can get outta here.

[@offthewallsk818]

Mohawk place’s slogan might as well have been “yeah, we’ll book you”. I enjoyed playing there. I like the local scene. I hate the way our guitarist got gear stolen there. There was virtually no security there.

[@erix5184]

There was a place like this in Cleveland called Peabody's... depending on what kinda show, there wasn't a "safe" spot unless you jumped behind the bar, the fucking bathroom didn't even have doors.

[@ccampbell0782]

I have lived in Buffalo for 42 years and have only been to The Mohawk Place once and that was to see The Damned Things years ago and it is a really cool venue but you know when you go in there that it is not a venue you do any moshing or crowd surfing at all. Its really just a bar with a stage setup and that stage is small and only like 15 inches off the ground. I could be wrong but I thought i heard years ago it had closed and then reopened with new owners but kept the name.

[@TankTheTech]

Wait, people DIDNT mosh at a Damned Things show??

[@ccampbell0782]

@@TankTheTech haha people were jumping and having fun but not moshing like you would think. Back then the security was a little more strict on it, which was the same year of that previous lawsuit

[@ccampbell0782]

i should say, bouncers not normal concert security haha

[@the_arrowflight]

surprising the singer hit a Fan and not a wall while stage diving! that venue is TINY!

[@habbathejutt5749]

When his happens in germany, the court dismiss the lawsuit with the note "general life risk". And I just find it hilarious that venue or band people can get to jail for it in the USA.

[@Martin_Koepl]

You have to sue in America in a case like that, because you somehow have to pay your hospital bills.

[@TankTheTech]

Yeah, and to be fair, $88,000 from a Go-Fund me isn't gonna come close to paying for hospital bills from a spinal injury.

[@Martin_Koepl]

@@TankTheTech There are days where I am more than happy to live in a country with public healthcare.

[@habbathejutt5749]

@@TankTheTech I dont know, I've newer saw a hospital or medical bill in my live, beside of the 5€ flat rate payment when you get your pills from drug store. And that alone plunges me into financial crises regularly. :D

[@Vicar307]

Do you have precedent for that or are you just making this up? Why do you think personal liability insurance exist If getting hurt by somebody else is just: general life risk?

[@shura_screams]

Off topic but, happy new year Tankyboy. Hope you and your family had beautiful holidays and a good start into the new year!

[@MerchMike]

I've been to this venue many times in the past for work + just to hang out and I definitely don't want to be one of those guys who says that you assume responsibility of injury for being in the pit, but I just want to clarify that there's enough space on the floor, not seen in the video's photos, to avoid any crowd interaction as well as a raised up viewing area (not seen in the video's photo) at the back of the crowd right side. Hoping for a fast recovery for Bird!

[@AwesomepowerJS]

I was in Buffalo for the GWAR concert, and there was some moshing, and it was such a fun show, and no one to my knowledge got hurt.

[@contraversialwhy]

The helmets at that show were hilarious!! I'd totally do that. I don't even own a bike. Just hop to a show with the rest of the special kids. Lol😂😂😂😂😂

[@Kaktysh_metal]

How much of an idiot does one have to be to attempt stage diving in a venue like that?

[@GlassFortress31]

Been there plenty. I have no idea how you can even stage dive. The stage is like 3 feet high. Venue is also not very big. Not the smartest thing to do at mohawk place

[@Friskee62]

I was stage manager for a HELLFEST in Syracuse, NY at an indoor skate park about 18 years ago. Mastodon, Hate Breed and others like them. The pits were huge but no one got hurt. A lot of circling and air kicking and punching...the chance for injury was there, but no one got hurt, thankfully.

[@jillporter8083]

I actually live in Buffalo and have been to Mohawk Place. You can pretty much stand halfway between the stage and the back wall and touch both (slightly exaggerated but close enough lol)

[@mrgriff7677]

Anyone that pays money to see a band has the right to go wherever that ticket permits them and not expect injury. You wanna dive, give your crowd a reasonable head's up, it's not hard.

[@Gotham_n_glam]

This story hits close to home being a Buffalo native that attends a lot of metal shows. From what I understand, the issue here seems to come from the band member stage diving, not the Mowhawk Place or any crowd members moshing. At a small show like this, you're honestly safer in the pit than immediately outside since the crowd is aware, makes room and helps you up if you fall. It's truly a shame, and it was very nice of the band member to help the injured woman, and they should be held responsible for their negligence. It always seems to be non-metal shows that these injuries occur, and the attention is always directed at mosh pits.

[@southernmetalhead1535]

That place looks as small as The End in Nashville. I remember going there to see my buddy's band when his band was having their EP release party back in 2018.

[@jordanalbano9780]

what I love about your channel is you cover all the exact same things I see on my socials 🤣

[@PaulHabrelewicz-s3r]

I play bass in a horror metal band and we have tons of blood in our show so no one really mosh’s! We do warn them if they don’t want blood on them to stand back!!!!

[@Scoots1994]

I went to a show where you had to go ON THE STAGE to get to the bathroom. There was a grounding problem and the singer kept getting shocked any time he touched the mic. This was in San Francisco. I'm sure there have been lawsuits before this one.

[@motherfudger6664]

I'm in the bay area, what venue was this?

[@IzaakClifford]

I've seen this band 3 times now here in Australia and let me tell you, every one of their shows has an insane pit. First time I saw them, dude got knocked out going over the barricade cause there was only 1 security guard and no one caught him.

[@charlotteice5704]

I think it was a bad thing of the singer to do. We can't say for certain how clear the venue was about the ban, but I think that you always have responsibility to the fellow humans around you and that you should always be considerate of them. I do not agree with the people saying "everyone's responsible for their own wellbeing". The fact that you're in a situation where some amount of bodily injury is expected (which this kinda wasn't) does not absolve you of your responsibility to not severely hurt others, which is why there are certain unwritten rules to moshing that we're all familiar with. Although this was stage diving and not moshing, I think that "don't throw your body into people who look like they're not prepared for it" absolutely applies here. I think that there would have been safer ways to achieve the same kind of effect. When someone wants any sort of stunt to be part of a show, there always needs to be a risk assessment and it's clear that Trophy Eyes didn't do theirs. I'm not some OSHA inspector type who demands that even the smallest band hires someone for this and has it in writing, but this risk assessment should at least happen as a thought process. It's the job of the person planning the show, be it a director or the band themselves, to think about (or hire someone to think about) all the risks this exposes the people to and all the possible ways to minimize them. To not take this critical step in the show planning process is very irresponsible and downright negligent in my book and I believe that the singer is rightfully being sued for this behaviour. Although I do think the band genuinely feels sorry for the injury, given the apparent lack of apologies for their (former) attitude towards this topic (i.e. quietly deleting the "f you" response), I can't help but feel like the donations were primarily an attempt at damage control. My theory is that the singer decided on stage diving anyways in spite of the ban and upon realising that this decision caused someone a life-altering injury, he did everything in his power to reduce the likelihood of a lawsuit, knowing what it would entail. It's really sad that someone has to sustain a life-altering injury and a venue may have to close its doors just for an arrogant singer to learn his lesson, which he better did.

[@splitprissm9339]

16:50 No, I think they just wanted to remind us that Helmet (Page Hamilton's band) is actually pretty good!

[@benjaminwhitmore9621]

Been to Mohawk quite a few times, mostly local bands. Did see Shadows Fall there once. Super small like you said, there aren’t a lot of places to stay away from people even if you’re trying

[@bronsontolliver9027]

Went to a Drowning Pool/Nonpoint show over a decade ago at a little spot in Lynchburg, VA. There was a strict no mosh policy. You could jump in one place, but any contact was immediately acted on. We bumped elbows while hopping. My buddy is about 6'2" and he got snatched mid-air by a mammoth of a security guard. He said that was the first and last warning. Kinda weak experience, but the bands were good.

[@wesleybrehm9386]

That sounds like a serious injury. Somebody’s gotta pay the medical bills. At this point it’s basically suing the insurance.

[@themobseat]

Yeah, so serious that she’s going to make a quick and full recovery. If the band doesn’t have liability insurance, she can take their homes and everything they own for decades.

[@kaitlynmarie5545]

I went to see Palaye Royale in October. Amazing concert! Definitely not hardcore or heavy music at all, but their singer was stage diving, climbing lighting equipment, etc. It was at a much bigger venue where you could easily avoid him doing that if you wanted to, so I feel like it's a completely different scenario, but I bring it up to say plenty of rock groups that aren't super heavy do this kind of thing too. (I'm NOT blaming her, just reacting to the surprise that they're not a hardcore band) I don't wanna say "man I really hope the venue/promoter/band get their asses sued"...This situation was the singer's fault but he and the band did the right thing once they found out she was hurt. I do hope that she recovers well and is able to get her medical bills paid whether it's through this lawsuit or more people finding out what happened and donating to her GoFundMe. Edit to say: Maximum the Hormone reference was unexpected but fuck yes!

[@dedrxbbit7549]

I never go to tiny venues for this exact reason. I’ve been to a total of two shows that had a mosh pit and you could barely call it that. My wife and I went to go see INK, FiR, and Underoath. It was at a larger venue that had high risers, floor seats, and a dedicated standing space that formed a giant square in front of the stage specifically for moshing. While FiR was on stage, Ronnie asked for all of the CHILDREN who were standing in the mosh area to form lines on either side of the square and then told them to just run towards the middle, go crazy, and have fun. The other time was at a Highly Suspect concert, of all things. They started playing Pink Lullaby and he just started screaming at everyone in front of the stage to start moshing hahahaha. A few people did, but there weren’t any fights. Worst thing that happened at that show actually was a guy got so drunk he got alcohol poisoning and EMS had to take him away, but that’s it. That’s not to say that I haven’t been at shows where moshing is totally warranted. I’ve seen BB a few times, Korn once, Underoath as I mentioned before, and a few other ones.

[@ericbontheweb]

Damn, my band used to play mowhawk place all the time and its a dope venue and the pits there were always great. We even opened for the casualties there once. Sad that something this serious sounding happened there Edit: after seeing the article, that picture is quite deceiving. If you're at the bar you are well away from the stage. You dont need to be in the pit at mohawk place.

[@Desirsar]

In the video, the stage is low and the singer seems like he would have just leaned on the crowd and been carried back. Was the Mohawk Place stage higher and he decided to dive hard rather than just lean onto the crowd like the clip?

[@flemingmv1]

It’s only about 2/3foot high. My fiancé played there with his band and I’ve been there. Completely stupid to dive from that small height.

[@isaacisback8786]

The problem is that, in the US, you have to pay for everything with your own money. So anything that costs you something and is not the result of your own actions and decisions (like accidents) is prone to be discussed in court to resolve liability issues. In other countries, like France or Canada, for instance, they've got social security and if you get an accident, the state takes care of the majority of the bill and private insurances (which are way cheaper than in the US) pay for the rest. So there's less reasons to lawsuits since accidents (non lethal, of course) are considered only accidents and the only thing that is a problem is the accident itself and not what it could also lead to financialy. And the result is that everybody lives in fear of being sued and hence a lot of things are getting forbidden.

[@KeaganZ2737]

The only two times I got hurt at shows didn't even happen during the show. Dislocated my knee walking towards the crowd, and I got a concussion on my way to the bathroom. My face caught a stray fist, and being wheelchair user put me at just the right height. I used to use the pits to move forward through the crowd, I loved standing in the eye of the storm, waiting for my chance to slip through.

[@Rallarberg]

The implications of such laws will be extra expences for the promoter/venues with low capacity, like the one in this example. This will in turn will be put on the crowd to cover - as with every added expence. Even tiny venues would need extra video surveilence (if they even have any to begin with) to be able to get out of being liable for any injuries. That cost can quickly add up, since you'll need tech that are able to provide positive confirmation on identification of both/all parties involved in a constantly moving mass of people and poor light conditions in the crowd. Festivals and large venues have plenty video surveilence, often top of the line with professionals monitoring and analyzing, so I don't think those would see any extra cost added. Other than that, I think the changes in any laws would only lead to ticket vendor sites and other related websites to add another sentence to their ToS. But, as mentioned by others here, such lawsuits would probably be dismissed most places.

[@fritzallen9123]

They should make make a "I acknowledge and agree" check box online when you buy your tickets. In the fine print it says injury could happen, enter at your own risk. As for ticket sales at the door, right on the ticket 'enter at own risk'

[@nepop7614]

@TankTheTech Hello from Germany! I just wanted to ask, since you’ve been on tour in Germany, if these no moshing rules are also happening in venues here in Germany? Since I’ve never been to a show here, where there was a “no Moshing rule” (at least that I’m aware of 😅) Greetings and Mosh save 🤘

[@julianmorgan8536]

I could maybe see when you purchase tickets, they also attach some sort of waiver that you fill separately? Is there a way a waiver could be setup that protects all parties involved (Bands, promoters and venues)? Could be gigantic pain in the ass to setup for every tour, but might be worth it in the end. Edit: I just realized if buying more than 1 ticket, it would be impossible to get the other people you’re buying for to sign waivers. Unless there was a link you filll out afterwards? This could help with the scalpers as well? Limits them because they wouldn’t be able to fill out multiple forms? But I guess they could always make up names and indenties? Now I feel like I’m just talking to myself lol. But would love to hear some feedback on if this could work and/or it how it would fail miserably for other reasons I haven’t stated.

[@zackadams419]

Being 33 now, I still love being in the pit, even though I don’t mosh or crowd surf anymore. I still love being right there with the action and with others where we are free to do those things if we please to feel free and have fun in front of our favorite bands. Banning moshing, crowd surfing, etc would totally kill that atmosphere because if places do try to enforce, many people wouldn’t feel that same freedom, therefore not enjoying the shows as much anymore.

[@aprilkurtz1589]

When I was a young OG punk in Chicago we pogoed to punk music, then moshing came in and it was fun, too. People rarely got hurt, if you fell you got picked right back up. Shame it's not that way now. But it's stupid to go into pits these days and not expect that you may get hurt. I think that the band has gone above and beyond for this young woman.

[@Zoopop13]

same! as a Chicago punk myself, also a women, its never been like that. i think its a lot of the newer people who dont know ettiquet. i would always assume at any show theres moshing/diving tbh.

[@jeffhall2411]

I am not a mosher, but i have been at the edge of a mosh pit due to the way the crowd just flowed.. i was with my 11 year old kid and had to drag her away because the moshers were throwing elbows when they hit the crowd. i try to stay away and move myself away from pits that start up for a reason. its just not for me.

[@danielberger1378]

I'm right there with you. I totally love going to shows, and I have seen a lot in recent years. I try to be as close to the stage as I can, but usually halfway to the left or right of the center, because I know what will eventually happen when the show starts.

[@dw7704]

Years ago I was at a concert for a band I’d seen before. They were hard rock, but not a moshing band. They don’t stage dive or crowd surf, and never said anything to incite any of that. We were down at the front, mid stage, and suddenly people started moshing. So you can’t say “Stay out of the pit” , there was no pit, but someone started moshing, others joined in, not sure if it was voluntary. I tried staying out of their way, but that proved impossible. This detracted from my concert experience. I got out of there and watched the rest elsewhere. But would have enjoyed it more up front. After the same thing happened with two other bands I stopped going up front when possible, but missed it, well other than the moshing, that the bands did nothing to encourage. I think it was just people who liked moshing and they started their own thing. Fortunately I was not injured.

[@delix787]

11:25 that’s an iconic moment for the channel! 😂

[@Hair8Metal8Karen]

Nothing could have prepared me for that...

[@MissFroglover]

Ha-ha! Did not know that helmets on concerts was a thing never heard about it 😄 However sometimes it might be a smart but heavy precaution 😉 Besides... it's actually a wonder people don't bump heads more often. Interesting topic. Have a great Weekend 🤘

[@magiclover9346]

At a the last Polaris gig i went to they had to cut the set by few songs. 3rd song in someone went down and snapped his ankle. Had to wait for the paramedics to come and take him to the hospital

[@rexluscus68]

I don't think venue size is a factor. When a friend and I saw ICP it was in a very small place with only about 200 people. During the opening acts we got closer to the stage until we were right in front of it when the last act before ICP was on. As soon as they finished i told my friend we needed to get back. When she asked why I just told her to trust me. We were only about 25-30 feet away but we didn't get hit by people moshing or soaked by Faygo even as small as the place was. A couple of years ago we took my (at the time) 11 yo daughter to see a band at an arena. We were on the floor. They wanted to get up close to the stage but I nixed that idea because I wasn't getting my girl crushed or injured by some idiot. There was some moshing near us but there was enough of a barrier between that and my daughter. God have mercy on anyone getting to wild and hurting my children at a show because I sure as hell won't have any. My point? You should know what you are getting into so the venue should not be at fault for your ignorance.

[@ESUSAMEX]

As someone who has attended more than 100 concerts in the rock and metal wing of music in my 50 plus years of life, I can say I love watching the crowd mosh and go nuts but I have never been into it personally. I have always stayed away from the mosh pit area. I do not need a dentist or medical bill added to my ticket and parking fees. I wouldn't count out any major changes due to this incident. After all, this all happened in NY State. As a native New Yorker, I can attest that the state loves to add more laws to NY society. The state looks for the slightest excuse to enact more laws. And once New York (or California) make changes, the rest of the nation tends to follow.

[@BornOfMetal]

All I see happening is A clause in the contract between the venue, the band and the promoter holding them(the band) financially responsible for any physical/mental injury caused by a band member perpetrating/participating in Stage diving,Moshing,Hardcore dancing ect with any member of the crowd and venue staff

[@dirface]

This could be a thing. Skateparks began to close in the 1990s primarily due to liability concerns and rising insurance costs. In the long run, this could result in hosting shows becoming financially unsustainable for smaller venues.

[@floridapunkarchivist]

Hi Tank. Another great video. You're a smart man and I'd love to make you smarter. It's anyway, not anyways. That is all for today. Thanks and keep up the great work!

[@perlundgren7797]

anyways, adverb, 1: US, informal anyhow, anyway (Merriam-Webster) Also: It's "Hi, Tank", not "Hi Tank".

[@floridapunkarchivist]

@ hi, Perl. You are correct. Congratulations on correcting me while confirming my correction of Tank was correct. Why did you have to edit your comment while correcting me?

[@petibankuti]

About how to enforce it with bands: I was on a tour (as tm), where it somehow became a thing that in one of the songs of the other band I did a stagedive. It was fine everywhere but then at one venue (where I didn't see no stage dive signs) the security guy came to me after and when I realized he had a problem with it, he said "You would have to leave now but I won't kick you out, just don't do it again", when I said I have credentials he said then if I do it again the band has to stop playing. That was a fair warning from him. Sure enough a few days later we had a show at a venue that seemed to be pretty strict about stuff... I told the security guy my "plan" and he said it's fine just let him know when and make sure people are paying attention, don't just jump in and surprise everyone. I also felt like this was a good way to handle it.

[@Stands-In-The-Fire]

Tank with the MTH clip... my worlds are that much closer to combining :D

[@allmixedup111111]

My first 311 show was at the aragon ballroom in chicago in 2001.And on my ticket, it specifically said no moshing, no body surfing. I actually had a pillow made of my first concert ticket and I put that on there 😅 they will always find a way to escape liability. But I don't think that's going to stop people from moshing

[@jennifergebhart5873]

There’s been a similar issue in the indoor rock climbing community. Gyms have worried about closing because people are negligent and want to blame them when something bad happens. I get being new to a culture or not knowing much going into an experience but I think some level of responsibility falls on you as the consumer of an experience to know what you’re getting into.

[@emojack]

The issue is that people often think a lawsuit is the result of two parties hating each other. But often it is just to have a legal entity clarify who's insurance has to cover expenses. Nothing more, nothing less - no hate, no bad feelings, just a legal process.

[@FIDEL_CASHFLOW_]

The only venue I've ever been to before that didn't allow moshing was The Norva in Virginia Beach. I saw In Flames there and while it was a great performance, it just didn't feel right without moshing.

[@Ozzy83666]

7:55 Question... this will be my first metal show I've booked, so I need to know; Do those signs actually protect myself as a producer/promoter and for the very too? Or are we still technically liable for crowd surfing or moshing regardless of how many signs we have posted?

[@blackphillip8486]

I'm truly shocked it hasn't come to an end yet, as sue happy and soft as people have become I would've thought moshing would have been stopped years ago. I think it's been a reflection of the sense of community us music fans and attendees of shows have and the mutual respect we have for one another's safety that made it last as long as it has.

[@PaulvonderHeyden]

What about generally disallowing moshing and making a special area where it is allowed? This doesn't work in small venues, but at least in the bigger ones it could sound like a compromise. Would this work?

[@dustercat21]

Are you gonna cover this again when the results of the lawsuit happen? I'd be curious to get updates and your response to it

[@tomb7890]

I was just at a venue two weeks ago that had a good take. "Vigorous dancing " was allowed. If the venue staff determined it was anything else, you were ejected.

[@jaizen2023]

I would really really like to know if there’s actual contract between the venue and the band and on that contract does it stay anywhere about that clause about no Stage diving?

[@marktaylor6246]

I used to love how the old Exit/In Nashville used to handle that way back when. One of the exits was right in the alley. They would just grab people and throw them out in the alley. It was hilarious to watch.