Win and Win compound bow what went wrong?

[@timothycoulter2848]

If win win was smart they would hire you as a consultant! Great content thanks

[@GlenKimpton]

I bought a win and win hurricane because of you. You were the only one that did any kind of video on them and the features looked good to me. More videos would have been good. There was almost nothing else on the internet about them. Getting further info was almost impossible. I ended up emailing win and win. No reply. I called them, then they immediately began to reply. The lack of support ended up turning me off until I kept eyeballing one in my local bow store in Sydney. Got it for a crazy low price and am happy with it other than the backup service. Once again it required me to call win and win before they would get back to my local shop with information. There is no massive development in compound bows each year. The USA manufacturers just have crazy yearly hype. Great marketing move to get people wanting to upgrade each year. The only thing win and win needed to do is provide good support and maybe develop some hunting risers in a variety of ATA that look good. Hurricane looks ok. But the shadow doesnt

[@JJ79_]

They have black wolf.

[@queef3057]

How you finding the hurrican? Im consider a shadow d for hunting & 3d, arion dx for target. I have 31.5" draw so the hurricane may be a bit short axle to axle in terms of stability etc for me.

[@queef3057]

@@JJ79_ That's a recurve riser, not a compound. Recurve risers don't use the term ATA. :) This triggered some thoughts though, not directed at you but a general comment below. Nice riser regardless, but: - Too short for many to be comfortable with as it only come in 17", for recurve size really matters unless you have a short DL. I cant shoot a 62" bow if i want to, never mind 60" which is what you get if you choose their matching limbs. Standard trad/hunting riser size is 19", many prefer 19-21" these days - No quiver/sight mount - Single berger hole - Limited sight window if you shoot longer ranges - Not actually that light, i can find at least two cheaper alloy risers lighter than it without trying that hard - Its around a 10 yr old design, if not older. Its top shelf money too, still to this day. All this makes it a niche riser for trad hunters who want an absolute barebone setup specifically for blind / tree stand hunting. Even then there are better choices for the same sort of money. There are also considerably cheaper options like the discovery which offer far more in terms of accessories and sizes. The black wolf is long overdue an overhaul. Aside that recurve riser they have the black elk. Its abetter size, a better price, but aside that all the same short falls. Its also ugly, being based off their entry kids recurve riser, but forged instead of cast. That's 2 hunting recurves, two hunting compounds & two target compounds (their compounds are also older designs now). Its a limited selection for hunting or compound. Their target recurve line up is actually bloated if you consider the WNS brand too. More so with the 2024 additions. Its not what id call a good hunting line up. But at least they have one. They are releasing trad limbs in s curve too (may even be available in the USA now). Id like to see more new products. They could have easily dominated all sectors if they really tried. W&W black wolf no longer exists anyway, its now the WNS black wolf (same price), so it's rebranded. Same for the black elk. This is normal when W&W retires a model. However ,the W&W black website has been taken offline for a few months now, which is/was the brand they use for all compound and hunting products they make. If the black wolf & black elk hunting risers are now WNS, then what is the defining thing of W&W black right now? Compounds only? Why is the website still down? My point being either new hunting products are coming to fill out the W&W black brand again, or they are slowly retiring some lines without replacing them, restructuring or maybe a mix of those things. I have an email conversation with them where i raised concerns over buying their products when they have no w&W black website. They say they are not leaving the compound market, so im hoping its just a brand restructure and hopefully new products to come. Unfortunately this restructure has been going on all season with no news from wiawis, alongside new 2024 target recurve products being dribbled out that conflict with the already solid line up for that category. Its a mess, no, its a sh*show. Actually, i think this really encapsulates why W&W compounds and hunting products don't sell well. Consumer confidence. They are not known for those markets, we need assurances, and they aint there. If i had confidence im not about to buy a dead design, id spend my money with them on compounds. I just want to know i can get bits for a reasonable time after buying it should warranty fail. I have no confidence i can. Their CS is so hard to communicate with too (they need to employ more western CS staff and/or product ambassadors). With a recurve riser its less of a worry, less parts to break. Their CS is less likely to be required.

[@Voxguitarsrock]

I will just come out and say it. Steve if Win & Win blackball you for sharing the facts or just stating your opinion I will never buy anything else from them. Cheers.

[@rockyreynolds4027]

I’m in Texas and man we have it so easy over here compared to other countries when it comes to archery equipment

[@b4bluey]

The Info you gave in this post is Fantastic , I`ve taken it all on board >> Thank You

[@johnarcher9480]

I’d love to try a Win& Win target compound. This is the first I have heard of them. I LIKE the Darton cam, and the limbs, and the riser. I wish I could see one.

[@florianblonske]

Hey Mate, i have a win&win black shadow 34 in Camo. I can ship it to you if you want to buy. I love the Carbon riser. Just feels good in the hand. Also there was a geil mounted Made of Rose wood. That was the Main reason for buying it.

[@paf1474]

I had a Win&Win Shadow Pro 36, great carbon bow well under half the price of other companies. Would buy a new one if it had rotating mods or better yet license the evolve cam!!

[@liamboyle9199]

They could have done so well... I remember that dragonfly I got and it actually shot really good, all be it the 38s with solid limbs were a bit unreliable.

[@DarrenWard-b9n]

So, as an update to the original comment, ties in quite nicely with your comments steve about back up from win and win. I got my local store to get me an Arion x. Brand new from SSA, 30 arrows later the module snapped, tore the serving on the bottom cam and ended up twisting the bow. Win and win response to the warranty claim was we will send you a set of shims so you( the store) can try to straighten it! Whats that all about? That is not great back up. Luckily the really good people at the store warrantied the bow outside of win and wins response and i have just received my replacement bow, a pse supra rtx. 3 sessions in with it and no looking back. Win and win have asked for further photos as i have raised this with them, but surely they have already dealt with the warranty claim? I just think the back up is shocking. As o5her people have pointed out, once compounds are more active in the sports window, they will then come back with more stylish and competetive bows.

[@queef3057]

Im considering one of their bows, possibly two (arion dx & shadow d). I see they use darton supplied limbs and cams. Had this issue happened on another brand, would a twist have likely occurred? I know their customer service is poor as i use there recurves. Just trying to figure if the design itself is problematic. Another thing, did the bow tune up well when you had it? Some people seem to think its problematic to tune, but it could be them rather than the bow, Thanks

[@benbasile6471]

I had a win win compound bow then the bow made noise found the limb pocket were junkl made with a bolt we had a bunch in the beginning now one one left, wonder why they stopped making them but a great recurve bow

[@honeybadgerclaw4642]

My friend have the same W&w comp target model like yours, I had shoot Mathew's solocam, hoyt cam 1/2, pse Me cam and now i'm using topoint reliance. W&w my friend has to me is weird bow, it shoot very loud, and grip position is very different than other compound bows and very hard to tune.

[@theweekendarcher2056]

I tried to find a left hand win & win compound. Had no luck

[@anthonylubic]

I had the exact problem…I don’t think they made LH compound bows 😞

[@craigmcgovern6801]

Nope. Win and win only made right hand compounds 😢

[@phantomcruizer]

Which means they only catered to the majority!

[@theweekendarcher2056]

@@craigmcgovern6801 Tis a shame

[@davidjensen2411]

Same!

[@chrisgaskell3706]

Perhaps they will thank you for an honest heartfelt opinion. 😅

[@DarrenWard-b9n]

Hi Steven. I agree 100%. I've actually emailed you to buy the arion dx, waiting for a response from. I emailed win and win to buy one direct from them because there are none in the UK, the said only business to business........ stunning business method

[@petrokemikal]

Not really.. Why would a company manufacturing 1000's of bows , suddenly start selling singles to people when they can offload a box of 100 to one shop and then 100 to another.. On top of that, you now ask all the silly questions about how to setup the bow to the shop that sells it to you.. Imagine being win and win sitting there packaging single bows and answering constant emails about when will it ship ? How do I use it ? That would make no sense.. They design them, make up a manual, then sell 1000's at a time and continue the process... The shops deal with all the small talk and headaches..

[@queef3057]

@@petrokemikal Its always funny when people with no business sense give their opinions on business. Well said. I would also add that selling to the public directly undermines the dealers, who they need on board as you already mentioned.

[@phantomcruizer]

If compound is admitted into the Olympics then and only then will you see Win & Win start manufacturing compound bows!

[@PaniKontrol]

I wanted a Dragonfly, I really liked the paint schemes, but couldn't find one here in the States.

[@tamara8872]

Lancaster sold them for a very short time, probably because they're the W&W supplier in the US and that model made a real splash in other parts of the world. As far as I'm aware, they never sold any W&W compound bows after that and I doubt they ever will. The American compound bow market is cornered by American companies that have all carved out their own niches through licensing and other deals. Other brands are agressively kept out of it. No matter the quality, innovation or competitive pricing, W&W never stood a chance there.

[@Christian.Jensen]

I have a win&win blach shadow pro 34 and Im loving it. But I fully buy your arguments Steven.

[@Christian.Jensen]

@@johnbencic8041 thanks, bur its the ez2 cam.

[@florianblonske]

@@Christian.JensenDid you get your bow papertuned??? I had. But my arrow was way to high. So I mounted the arrow rest in a way the arrow is in the same height as the Berger Hole. Now I have a crappie arrow flight with low right tear… French tuning went well.

[@Christian.Jensen]

@@florianblonske yes. It works really well for me. Sorry to hear about your unfortune.

[@sjankarcher]

When I looked for new compound 1.5 year ago I considered win win. It lost because ultimately it does not look as good as competition, has multiple cam options and I was unsure what would be good for me, people were saying it might be hard to get them tuned. Overall I was afraid noone would know how to service it. So I passed on the oppornity, even if it might have been more cost effective, they were cheaper.

[@rolldysharpshooter6593]

In my case, they refused to make a LH model

[@justachankin1651]

Mathews still sell the same target bow for I gess six years...so rapid

[@anthonylubic]

I love my black wolf recurve 👌🏻

[@peterxyz3541]

I was eyeing a WinWin compound on eBay.

[@geoffdrew5207]

There are basically no secrets in compound bow design now, ten or fifteen years ago there was but not today. It's all about marketing and supply, just as you say, people want to shoot the bows the winners use and will pay a premium to do so. Win and Win could easily take top spot in compound sales, Americans are patriotic but would dump American compounds in a heartbeat if they can buy a foreign bow that constantly wins for half the price of the American bows. I don't think Win and Win are thinking big enough.

[@sahhull]

Love the colour of that riser @1:00 I have an issue with compounds. My draw length is often right on the edge between the 2 cams they offer. Its awkward. Im 27 1/2 on a PSE... On a Hoyt and Matthews Im 28inch (didnt like either).. My Mybo Origin Im 28 1/2. So what would I order? I chose a bow based on whats available to have a go with at the shop and ideally it needs to be a 26 to 30 inch so I know it will fit me.

[@HamishGarland]

Just be thankful that you don't have a 32" draw length.

[@sahhull]

@@HamishGarland I know someone does... Massive d-loop is the answer.

[@caseysmith544]

Mathews Genesis brand has had non bow press cams to adjust the draw and wight on bows since the old Genesis Pro came out in the 2000's Sure you need the same allen wrench for the bows, it is not an Elite or top of the line Hoyt that do not use this. I know as a friend got a Genesis in Madison Wisconsin, formerly Middleton era and the OG bows the Genesis 15-35 pound you 100% needed a dowel s to change the limbs draw from the set at 30 inches as the bow was what it was. At the time the bows in 1999 till the Gen --X needed a bow press to change the draw via the one cam but not the poundage as that was via the limb bolts. I know these facts becuse when my friend from Middelton part of Madsion Wisconsin ( lived there 2--12 and 1991 to end of 2000) upgraded from his old Generation 1 Genesis from 1999 the Genesis made , to the wheel and cam for a Genesis Pro and a new special sized string, the bow did not need a dowel for the cam anymore to keep the parts together as they were made as one part on the lower cam or a fixed cam. The poundage was at the time minimum for deer/turkey 40 pounds to not have to use a cheaper used Recurve with a compound sights He later moved back to the original Genesis sized wheel getting the bow set up to get 32-33 inch draw from the bow to get his full draw when he stopped growing and the minimum dropped to 35 pounds for deer/turkey in 2009 or 2010 so a 38--39 pound bow at his draw was fine using the string he had on it from the upgrade and using the last hole on the bow.

[@manuelwebe]

Why if the Korean company is called WiaWis the bows are called Win & Win in Australia & America (I think in Europe are called WiaWis)?

[@leevespa4564]

...I've just brought a black elk ....are the recurves the same!!!

[@jemeriah2467]

You seem to be perkier every time I watch you, after your operation, good to see your ongoing improvements in health.Must be said your diplomacy skills maybe lacking, which I prefer way more than charming bullshit. As we would say here, " Calls a Spade a bloody Shovel'.

[@danieleyles6934]

id love to buy that arion dx of you but sadly i live in thye UK

[@gibberpl1]

As one said, they do not understand bowhunting. Their hunting recurve without mounting holes for quivers.

[@queef3057]

Consumer confidence. If i had confidence im not about to buy a dead design, id spend my money with them on compounds more readily. I just want to know i can get bits for a reasonable time after buying it should warranty fail. I have no confidence i can. Their CS is so hard to communicate with too (they need to employ more western CS staff and/or product ambassadors). With a recurve riser its less of a worry, less parts to break. Its hard to accept the argument of the market is too strong. Some of their limbs and cams are supplied by darton and their carbon riser facilities are cutting edge. Sounds like a poor attempt at accepting responsibility, while not realising the real issue of CS and consumer confidence. (condensed from my big rant elsewhere in these comments. That rant also covers some W&W black specific uncertainties)

[@davidjensen2411]

Stephan Hansen sold Supra's for PSE... Does any Australian know the names of ANY Korean shooters? *Do the Chinese archers use their own cheaper products?!*

[@davidblowe9096]

Late comers into an established market, they missed the mark by not taking on the hunting market - something the yanks have down pat.

[@simonschuh5283]

Win and Win do not make left handed compound bows.

[@shredfreak83]

never seen a compound of theirs in person, only pse & hoyt with the odd bowtech. My guess is they'll sponsor some korean who will most likely clean house in the competition and use that to dive into the market. You don't see their bikes either. and they are looking damn good spec wise, while the price makes brands like specialized and trek look like a total joke (wich they are really). From what i can tell from the japanese pricing is that their top of the line is less then half of what the big brands charge. Wich really begs the question why stores don't sell these like hot cakes.

[@stephenryder8143]

Your better off owning liquor store 😂😂😊