Winchester Miroku 1886 Skinner Front sight replacement - It's too short !

Fitting a new Skinner front sight to my Winchester Miroku 1886. Moving up to hotter loads has rendered my front sight too short so we are going to take a closer look at what it takes to fit a dovetail sight. And we're going to slug that Winchester barrel and compare rifling with the Microgroove rifling of the Marlins.
Also . . . lead in the barrel from cast bullets. We'll also look at what has shown up in the Winchester barrel.

[@bushcraft_in_the_north]

I would have used the sight the other way,so it was a undercut sight. Then it would be crisp and dark. That is how we like them in Norway.

[@TargetSuite]

Hi Morten. The ramped side of the sight has serrations to cut down on glare. But I understand why you would go with an undercut.

[@alancaron984]

Larry Potterfield mentioned ‘Montana Vintage Arms’ as a source for sights. I just ordered a mid range Tang sight for my 1886.

[@TargetSuite]

That's great Alan. One of the other viewers also turned me on to their stuff. Let me know what you think about it.

[@jasoncox4234]

To help with the leading issue, Lee has the problem solved. The case lube if put on your bullet gas groves, will pull out the lead. It is covered in 2nd edition of the reloading manual. It has worked on both my black powder rifles and my 3 pistols. I also cast some harder lead bullets with gas rings with gas checks. Then fire 25-50 depending on how the barrel looks.

[@TargetSuite]

Hi Jason.Lots of folks have suggested gas checks. I'm working to get some.

[@steveww1507]

hey just found your channel I m a big leaver fan . You gut a new sub.

[@TargetSuite]

Thanks Steve! Glad to have you!

[@garyK.45ACP]

Thanks for another informative video! But, to my way of thinking, the sight is backwards, I would put the flat side toward the shooter. But "always follow label directions". Internet advice is free and worth exactly what you pay for it. When you do pour the alloy in the barrel, make sure you are wearing a hot mitt on your hand supporting the barrel. If any of that stuff spills out.....😲 I have been loading cast bullets since the 60s. Most of them of my own making. I have experimented with various commercial cast bullets and have even bought bulk lots of some I really liked. Probably 80% + of my casual shooting of rifles and handguns is with cast bullets. I have been collecting wheel weights since the 70s when you could have all you wanted for the asking (and the labor of picking them up) at any local tire or auto repair shop. I still have tons (yeah, I mean that literally) on hand. You can't get them so easily anymore, a lot of the new ones (if not all) are not even lead alloy, but by the late 80s I had (what appears to be) a lifetime supply. In other words...I should live so long as to use all these up. 😁 I am lazy enough to just use them as is. With a BHN of about 12, they actually work well up to 1600+ fps. WW metal can be a little particular about mold temperature, but I have found the pace needed to keep the molds at proper temperature and I am in no big hurry. I don't experiment with exotic alloys, I just use plain wheel weights. I don't use gas checks except for one mold for .30 caliber rifles. For .45 caliber rifles I use two molds. A 535 gr. Postell "sort-of pointed" bullet for a .45-110 (2-7/8") in a Shiloh Sharps Long Range Express and a 400 gr. RNFP I use in .45-70 for 3 rifles. An original 1886, a Miroku 1886 and a Ruger #1. I sometimes use the 535 gr. bullet in loads for the Ruger also. They won't work in the lever guns, too long. In the .45-70 I use smokeless powder exclusively and I keep velocities to around 1600 fps. My favorite load is 50.0 gr. "Varget" for an average velocity of 1655 fps. (NOT for Trapdoor rifles, but OK in any good lever action) I have no problem with leading. I size all my .45 rifle bullets to .459". I prefer .001" over groove diameter and .459" works well in all my rifles. All the rifles have "Ballard" style, deep cut rifling. I have not "slugged" all my barrels but I know the Shiloh is .458". At .4575", I would still use a .459" bullet. I do not have any "micro groove" rifled barrels and can't comment on that. As you can see, I do not try to push the boundaries of the cartridge, not saying it is bad, I know you can safely get more out of a modern .45-70 rifle, I just don't bother. And I don't have any leading problem. If a 400 gr. bullet at 1655 fps doesn't solve my problems, I have a .405 WCF and a .375 H&H (I have not had ANY problems with elephants or rhinos in my wife's garden since owning the .375) Hah!!!!...she said I didn't "need" an elephant rifle. She was wrong, as usual. 😜 To prevent leading, or at least reduce it... 1. Size bullets (or buy them sized) to .001"-.0015" larger than groove diameter 2. Choose the harder alloys that are offered for higher velocity loads...16 BHN or more. A lot of the commercial cast bullets are made for black powder or black powder velocity. 3. Make sure the lube/coating used is for smokeless powder velocities 4. Choose a gas check bullet if available. Enjoy shooting that fine rifle!

[@TargetSuite]

Oh yes! Busted. I thought about the hot metal after finishing the project. But since it is a low temp metal, my hand would only be scorched by 260 degree molten metal, not 700 degree ;-) Great info about casting. Unfortunately, I sold all of my casting stuff, including 100# of linotype back in the early 80s. Arghhh!

[@garyK.45ACP]

@@TargetSuite Oh...just 260 degrees? Nothing to worry about then. 😜 Hopefully, I am now in my "forever home" and don't have to lug around those buckets full of wheel weights anymore. My oldest son was here in February, before the plague halted everyone's travel, and said "You need to shoot more...so you finish off those buckets of lead before you don't need them anymore. I don't want to move them " Touching bit of sentiment. 😏 I have hung on to them and moved them several times, including putting them, and all my guns and loading equipment, into storage for 4 years during an overseas assignment. They have served me well during times of "shortages"...like now.

[@TargetSuite]

Doesn't want to move them . . . Ouch! And with Christmas right around the corner. Bag o switches for him😄

[@davidgood1699]

You might want to consider buying Lyman cast bullet handbook by author Mike Venturino 4th edition if you are going to shoot castbullets this book goes into great detail about slugging your barrel and what size bullets will shoot best I have been casting bullets for over 25 years and after reading this book I was very impressed very knowledgeable guy Mike Venturino is he shoots long range blackpower singleshot rifles they shoot 500 meters with cast bullets I think you will get a lot from this book also how to remove lead and the causes I hope this will help you good shooting

[@TargetSuite]

Thanks David. That sounds like great advice. I just ordered a copy from Amazon. $24.99

[@davidgood1699]

I went and read a article by Brian Pearce he said there could be a couple of things to solve the problem lead not hard enough and also try another lube that is harder.also too use Lyman turbo cloth to remove the lead make sure the patch is very tight might take a couple to remove the lead if at end of the barrel your lube is too soft

[@TargetSuite]

Thanks David. I am using HiTech bullets from Acme (so far). Since they are coated, they don't have any traditional lube.

[@rooster3019]

I like a downward trend from chamber/barrel throat to barrel. .4575 pretty much ideal. If your HiTech boolits are leading there is a problem, commonly with the end of the chamber to barrel transition being a sharp cut. There are reamers for that, but not for the tryo on nice rifles.

[@TargetSuite]

Thanks! The leading on this rifle is minimal and I was pushing those Acme bullets pretty hard. I will probably cut back a little and make the Acme bullets my "plinking" round. Then get some harder hard cast bullets for serious work. Still learning with this 45-70.

[@joelgeiser675]

Gas checks for your projectiles should solve the issue...dont waste too much time scratchin your head over it. Swage on a couple and get back to shootin!

[@TargetSuite]

Hi Joel. It's somewhat of a budgetary decision. But I will try some Cast Performance gas checked bullets this spring or early summer. Thanks for the comment.

[@garyrice6497]

Hi George, I just mounted a skinner sight to my bolt 1886 browning. Im curious as to what the height of your front sight came to after sighting in with the standard 405 low pressure loads? Mine is also a 26 inch barrel. Thanks and keep up the good work, Ive already learned alot from you. Gary

[@TargetSuite]

Hi Gary. With the low pressure loads, my sight was trimmed to .470" (base of dovetail to top of sight). I'm going to need about .550" to let me shoot the high velocity rounds.

[@garyrice6497]

Target Suite Thanks for the info George, yesterday I made the mistake of only taking an experimental 405 grain load using h4831 when I meant to bring the same bullet with 50 grains of h4895. Got it zeroed at 75 yards then remembered I had another box of 55 grains of 4895 and low and behold it was close to 7 inches high. Lol good thing I have a few extra front sights here at home. Merry Christmas by the way. Gary

[@TargetSuite]

Thanks Gary, Merry Christmas to you and yours !

[@craigschwaegerl4892]

Thanks for the video! I will probably be doing this in the coming months. Where did you get your brass punch?

[@TargetSuite]

Hi Craig. Pretty sure I got it on Amazon (link below) but I had to grind the triangle tip to fit in the dovetail slot. A rectangle that will fit between the dovetail would probably be just as good and a lot easier to form. www.amazon.com/Mayhew-25076-2-Inch-Knurled-Brass/dp/B002XMSBBI/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/135-0068807-5185114?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B002XMSBBI&pd_rd_r=40ca5c4b-584e-4bea-935b-139c84ea0408&pd_rd_w=PF01K&pd_rd_wg=cFXAI&pf_rd_p=09627863-9889-4290-b90a-5e9f86682449&pf_rd_r=NMEEY978AFVZXHFHQ50B&psc=1&refRID=NMEEY978AFVZXHFHQ50B

[@brutlstrudl6748]

@@TargetSuite I've got a Moruku 1895 with a Skinner rear Peep. My problem is that the rifle front site is way too high even with the rear site bottomed out Complicating things is that the front site is already on a ramp so the site has to be higher which ruin the lines of the barrel. finally, the rifle is in 30-06 so it's not going o be easy to get the trajectory to shoot like your 45-70. Ive decided to cut the Barrel off just behind the Ramp and cutting a dovetail slot for a site like the one on your 1886

[@TargetSuite]

Can you just file off (shorten) the front sight?

[@brutlstrudl6748]

@@TargetSuite If by shorten you mean lower, wouldn't that increase my problem?

[@TargetSuite]

@Brutlstrudl I may have misunderstood you. If you meant your rifle shoots too high then you will need a taller front sight. But, if your rifle shoots too low then you can raise your rear sight. If there is not enough adjustment in the rear sight to zero your rifle you can shorten the front sight.

[@dogbone1358]

Had to change the front sight on my 1886 after adding the same Skinner rear sight. Went with the brass bead that matches the original front sight.

[@TargetSuite]

👍👍👍

[@buckshot4428]

I have always found it necessary to install a taller front sight after installing a peep sight. Ammo is another issue altogether. The longer the dwell time will result in a higher poi.

[@TargetSuite]

Yep. My experience as well. Thanks for the comment!

[@musicmatty67]

Fascinating video! Forming a cast inside the barrel is above my pay grade. Could you explain about replacing the front blade… You went from a short blade to a taller blade because you were shooting too high or low and at what yards?? I found a method for removing the lead and wad fouling from a barrel that works exceptionally well. A Cleaning rod usually comes in 2 attachments and one of those ends has the handle. I use just one piece of that Rod without the handle and connect the wire cleaning brush to it. I then take the other end of that cleaning rod which does not have a handle on it and I insert it into a power drill chuck and tighten it down. I spray the inside of the barrel with gun cleaner and let it soak for 5 minutes. I then turn the drill on to a low or medium speed with that wire brush rotating obviously at a high rpm and push it inside the barrel and work it back-and-forth slowly. A couple minutes of working this rod back-and-forth will have the barrel looking like glass.

[@TargetSuite]

I had to change the front sight because the Skinner sight I put on the breech bolt was quite a bit higher than the factory buckhorn sight. So, with the factory sight, I was shooting very high and unable to adjust the rear Skinner sight any lower to compensate. Thanks for the tip on getting rid of leading.

[@TargetSuite]

Nice collection of guitars, by the way

[@dogbone1358]

Looked at this video again and noticed that your brass punch is much different (longer) than the ones (front & rear) I got from Brownells. They work just fine, but beefier and shorter.

[@TargetSuite]

Not sure where I got mine. It is "plenty" long for sure.

[@paul55austria51]

Hi George, I think you have a very good KZbin channel and I immediately subscribed. Here in Europe I have not yet been able to find this skinner sight. I'm going to make these myself. But ....! I have a question. Where did you get that clock with the cat on the wall behind you? Great !! Whenever I reload, my cat is always with me and follows my actions with special interest. Kind regards from Austria, Paul

[@TargetSuite]

Haha! It's called a Kit Kat clock and available online.

[@Fred-eg9sx]

just wondering, the dovetail sights for 1894 would also fit right? Since both the 86 and 94 is 3/8 dovetail.

[@TargetSuite]

Yes, they have the same dovetail slot.

[@tripplebeards3427]

Time to start powder coating your bullets. I have shot thousands of cast bullets in several of my rifles and pistols with zero leading. First rule of thumb is to slug your barrel before shooting cast so you know what to size your bullets at. Thanks for the left to right. Didn’t know that and am replacing a front sight today on a R Murdock 32 rimfire.

[@ericoulundsen5041]

I have had leading problems with hitec coated bullets that were properly sized. Try powder coated bullets sized .001 over.I've had good luck with that

[@TargetSuite]

Thanks for the advice Eric. If the HiTek coating fails, I'll give that a try.

[@DeeMoback]

Eric ...... Exactly

[@rooster3019]

My Skinner front was a bit large and I did file the bevels a little, but mostly reduced the bottom of the sight's base to get a nice tight fit. Size bullets to the chamber throat, not the groove diameter. If the jetting of gasses begins at ignition, it will still leat the barrel. Softer lead is good to a point as is powder coating. prs

[@TargetSuite]

@Rooster I never thought about that, but you are right. I'll look into it.

[@jimfoster2011]

Not sure if you fixed he leading problem, but it may be the lead is too hard and can not obturate at the velocity/pressure your round is shooting at. The formula I found when learning about this; Optimal BHN = PSI/(1422*.90)

[@TargetSuite]

Thanks Jim. Did you get PSI numbers from the reloading manual?

[@jimfoster2011]

@@TargetSuite Yes, many of the manuals I have list pressures. I've used this formula to select BHN for lead pistol bullets. It is my understanding that most of the big box store reloading cast bullets are too hard for many applications. I've noticed many of the niche cast bullets providers offer a range of hardness. Also, I've read that for velocities over 1,800 ft/sec, often, a gas cap is necessary. I've gotten some very nice gas cap bullets from Montana Bullet Works for my 375 Ruger. I have not ran my 45-70 that hot yet to consider gas caps.

[@auntiefiat9769]

George: Can you tell me which Skinner sight you mounted? I am searching for this sight and I cannot find it? Thanks sir!

[@TargetSuite]

Hi John. It's not on their website so you'll have to call them and ask for the BHA sight for your rifle. BHA stands for Big Horn Armory. They make the sight for their rifles but it is available to us Winchester guys as well.

[@auntiefiat9769]

@@TargetSuite Thanks much!

[@TargetSuite]

You bet! Good luck and tell 'em I sent you ;-)

[@auntiefiat9769]

@@TargetSuite You bet I will. It looks like Lohman Gunsmith in Houston will drill and tap my bolt, and ream my M71 to Ackley Improved for a reasonable price...so looking forward to the mods. Thanks for the help!

[@TargetSuite]

John, let me know how it works out with Lohman Gunsmith. I want to cut the throat a little deeper on my Winchester 1892 so I can shoot longer, heavier bullets.

[@kennethdahl4791]

IMO, I would prefer to have a bullet of .459" or better yet .460" to shoot in a .4575" barrel. Also if you are shooting high velocity loads I would prefer bullets with a gas check.

[@TargetSuite]

Hi Kenneth. I've just done a couple of videos using gas check bullets from Montana Bullet Works in my Marlin 1894 44 Magnum. Thanks for the comment!

[@garyrice6497]

Oh and I forgot to add that I even forgot my chrono , probably old age but I figured that load of 4831 barely putted out the barrel more than 900 FPS . Way too slow with Un burned powder in the barrel .

[@TargetSuite]

900fps is indeed slow ! And probably a joy to shoot as well. When I got mine home it had tons of unburned powder in the barrel and action, which is what drove me early on to figure out the dis/reassembly process. I use Varget powder (because I had 8#'s of it). With moderate (1600fps) to compressed loads, it burns cleanly. One thing I discovered early on, is that the 1886 is not friendly when shot from the bench. But even with the +P loads, it was not uncomfortable to shoot standing up (except the one time I didn't mount the crescent butt plate correctly). I'll remember that shot for a long time :-)

[@torbenqvist7730]

Just to compare data: My riffle has a 24 inch barrel. I'm shooting mainly ,459/405 grains coated projectiles. I use a powder called RS36 (reload swiss). 43 grains (hot load) provides a velocity of 1800 fps. Burns 100% clean. I don't want to shot that load from a prone position or while sitting down leaning into the riffle. It kicks hard which is kind of nice and why I bought the riffle in the first place :) I am trying out a different powder: Lovex D060 which seams to be a very affordable powder. I am currently working up a load. The provided reloading data seams to be "very safe" and a bit borring to be hounest. I have a little problem with unburned powder at the moment. I expect that to solve it self as the the load/pressure increases.

[@TargetSuite]

In my limited experience with my 1886, I too have come to enjoy the kick. But that only happened after I started shooting the rifle "as intended" . . . standing up. And then, even the +P Grizzly at over 4000 lb/ft of energy was pleasant to shoot. I read a lot of complaints about Varget being a "dirty" powder, but was pleased to find it burned completely with "full house" loads. It's interesting that the same powder that works in my .25MOA bench rest rifle would also work well in a rifle/cartridge combo that is over 130 years old . . .

[@jakeiouy]

Hey! Quick Question: Could you just adjust the rear sight instead of replacing the front sight? Thanks!

[@TargetSuite]

Hi Jake. The problem is that the rear sight is taller by design than the semi-buckhorn factory sight. So in order to use the existing front sight, the Skinner has to be lowered beyond its range.

[@buckshot4428]

He took a little too much off that front sight.

[@TargetSuite]

Yep. Had to order a new sight. Rookie mistake! Lol!

[@buckshot4428]

@@TargetSuite Most of us have been there.

[@TargetSuite]

Yep :-)

[@brianblackwell2308]

You confused me all to hell, can you give a better explanation about micro groves

[@TargetSuite]

Marlin Micro-Groove rifling is proprietary to Marlin. It utilizes more grooves and they are shallower than standard rifling.

[@brianblackwell2308]

Thank you

[@kadven6447]

Good work on your part but that is one ugly front sight.

[@TargetSuite]

Yep. That's the downside to Skinner and XS sights. They are tall and require a tall replacement front sight.

[@charlesbertram986]

Target Suite, there's usually more than one way to skin a cat. Let me preface these comments by saying I'm definitely not a gunsmith and these are just my thoughts. Don't suppose you've considered the possibility of fitting a filler blank into that front dovetail slot and either filing/milling the filler blank to suit the barrel profile, or modifying (milling/filing) a slot in the underside of a screw-on ramp to accommodate the upper portion of the blank? In either case, the filler blank could be drilled and tapped for the screw that would otherwise attach the ramp to the barrel, direct, and, when so attached, you would have, to my eyes anyway, a much more attractive arrangement with a low ramp and a low front sight blade in the ramp dovetail. Sure there's a fair bit of mucking around to get there, but I'd argue that a fine rifle like that would be well worth the effort. No, it won't look original, but neither does the tall and somewhat ungainly Skinner front blade anyway. 😉😉 As I said, I'm not a gunsmith and someone far more highly skilled than I am would need to undertake the task, but you seem to be pretty handy with a file ......... 👏👏👏👏👏

[@TargetSuite]

Hi Charles. There's more to the story. When I first put the Skinner on that rifle, I cut the new front sight too short, so I put a new one on. That was months ago. But I never trimmed that new sight, so it is way too tall and exceedingly ugly. I need to fix that😄Thanks for the suggestion.