Wind and Truth Reactions 2 (FULL SPOILERS) | Shardcast

[@17thShard]

Hi all! I adjusted the timestamps where positivity begins and negativity begins, so you can skip around however you want! -Eric

[@AdySeifer]

@@17thShard Hi Eric, I would like to hope people aren't just skipping critique about the book for the sake of it, that would make us sycophants; I get the feeling it's specifically what, and how, certain views were expressed that is driving conversation.

[@jasonlarkin8807]

😂 thanks!

[@samkarch2757]

Thanks for adjusting the timestamps, it kept me on the video longer. On the flip side of Ady's comment, I hope you also take the criticism of the negativity seriously as well; there's a difference between critiquing a book and being toxic about a book. Genuine valid criticisms (or personal preferences) can turn irritating or even insulting based on the way the criticisms are stated as angry/exasperated fact. It's unfortunate that you all seemed to agree on your critiques, I think the conversation would have been more pleasant and more substantive with some tempering influences in those moments.

[@17thShard]

@@samkarch2757 This is interesting. I don't know. I loved the book but I found this episode to be balanced (half of it is very positive) and even on stuff I didn't agree with, I found it amusing. I can totally accept there's some lessons to take, but it is hard for me to not shake the notion that a lot of the pushback is, "But I loved the book, this is not fun for me" being in the new book glow or "I can't believe they liked this thing I didn't like". Definitely a thing to think about. I had never seen this episode (I did not edit it) and there are comments that felt this was very mean-spirited. I personally didn't sense that. Clearly there's some tonal difference in what I sensed and what you did, and that's totally fair, and absolutely is your right to feel that way. Perhaps some jokes really do not land when it's like, "But I loved it, what the crap?" I don't know, RoW reactions were pushback on being too positive. All I can tell you is that if we people did not like the thing, we are going to tell you that. If we liked a thing you didn't, we are going to tell you that! I do want to say that as things settle I will definitely be rewatching and taking notes for whatever the next Reactions episode will be. I guess Ghostbloods 1? That's wild to say. I would have loved to put someone who unabashedly loves the book like I do on this episode. Unfortunately, I am the only person on the cast who likes the book that much (and some cast members who couldn't be on either have strong feelings about different things they did not like). All I can say is for me, as ultimately the person who decides what podcasts are done, and the scheduling: It is my intent to empower our cast to make their voice heard. I want everyone to know that I want these to be our honest, sincere opinions. Hopefully in a somewhat entertaining way. I was entertained, but I do kind of like videos where it's dunking on a thing (I have also had a lot more time to process the book, which I think helps me think this is enjoyable). It's totally fine to not enjoy it, though. Definitely stuff to think about though, and I hope you have seen comments of me here engaging sincerely here. I definitely might feel very different about this episode in two or three years. Currently, I think it will hold up better than the pushback indicates. -Eric

[@samkarch2757]

@@17thShard thanks for the very thoughtful response! I realize the irony of critiquing a critique for being a critique, but let me try to flesh it out a bit more, I think it comes down to a couple types of interactions in this particular video: Exaggerated negativity: - Feedback loop of: measured criticism -> someone shares that criticism -> first person builds to an exaggerated / angry / offended rant that is (in my opinion) unjustified and off-putting - Criticisms -> counterarguments -> criticizer dismissive of counterarguments without real consideration - Lack of distinction between personal preferences and more objective criticisms Negated / muted positivity: - Passionate seemingly negative rant -> disclaimer at the end that "it was good but not spectacular" - Begrudging acknowledgements of things as good "I guess that's cool" I'm not saying you need a sunshine and rainbows person on every cast, but these instances undermined some of the more nuanced discussion and nerding out in other parts of the video that I enjoyed. But, maybe that's largely a difference in preference - I don't really enjoy "dunking on stuff" content unless it's really terrible like, say, GoT S8, otherwise I prefer to focus on the good and have the bad as a qualifier rather than vice versa. You could definitely go too far the opposite direction too, it's tough. I appreciate the effort you all put it in, it's great to have this much content to dig into so shortly after a behemoth of a book. You wouldn't get this much engagement if you weren't doing a bunch of things right, similar to how Brandon got an edited 8.5hrs of just reaction videos out of you all!

[@scarletsabre8383]

I will say Ishar just saying to Kaladin's face "I've heard Hoid's songs and stories before, they're not going to work. Sit down." was rather cathartic

[@alexayers8904]

Yeah, it was pretty funny. That and Nale destroying Kaladin in battle. This book put some respect on the Heralds’ names.

[@EnderGraff1]

@@alexayers8904the Taln scene… amazing.

[@BlackHand531]

​@@alexayers8904 Did he use Atium? I was confused?

[@JorgeMorge]

@@BlackHand531the heralds powers aren’t completely explained but I believe they’re using abilities that they have access to due to their connection to Roshar and Honor, not burning metals. The same way Taln dog walks a bunch of fused with his bare hands, they seem to have innate physical abilities.

[@BlackHand531]

@@JorgeMorge I went over the fight so much to be sure lol. Thanks. Wish the Taln fight wasn't off screen

[@nd4159]

Idk please correct me if I'm wrong, but my read on the flute scene was that Kaladin had not suddenly become a master, nor was he even playing music the whole time but the Wind was bringing in bits and pieces of Kaladin's various practice sessions that were good/decent to create a cohesive song

[@danielmorgan6793]

Yeah right? I mean the music continues (due to the wind) while he's speaking with Nale

[@sparhawkmulder1515]

Yeah that was my read. Also, the scene read to me not as magically changing Nale's mind but instead forcing Nale to confront his emotions and doubts himself. Like, it seemed like Nale KNEW that if Kaladin finished the story his conscience and emotions would reassert itself, almost like he kind of wanted that to happen. Also, Kaladin DID utilize some pretty destabilizing and potent lines during the story; "is it your emotions you can't trust, or your mind?" was really strong! I thought he did a good job!

[@infinitesingularity8477]

I feel like one thing that should have been emphasized more (in the text) is the idea that Nale was slowly having his faith destabilized, starting with his interactions with Lift, and that he’s becoming more zealous in an attempt to avoid the truth in front of him. It’s implied that’s sort of what’s happening, but it could have been a bit more explicit.

[@nd4159]

@@infinitesingularity8477 yeah I wouldn't have minded that

[@diepie5144]

@@infinitesingularity8477 yeah the overall strategy is good, but the execution was a bit.. muddy

[@Laloslawyer]

The Kaladin therapy rants are really weird and entirely miss the mark IMO. No shit a dude who is literally trying - without ANY education on how CBT or trauma works - to help other people is going to primarily rely on his own experience. What was that “OH A TIEN?? EVERYTHING HAS TO BE TIEN?” Rant from Shannon? Yes, in fact, a twenty-something year old kid who is still processing his own trauma is going to filter other people’s experiences through his own life. He’s been trying this for 4 days, obviously he’s not going to be great at it.

[@greywatch9365]

Well, I do feel like my point was missed, too, because my point was: this was a Szeth moment that got turned into a Kaladin one. I wanted to experience the emotions and breakthrough Szeth was having much, much more than I wanted to experience Kal whiffing it. Not only was it a whiff of the character, but the fact that one could feasibly kindasorta defend Kal being so bad at this misses the point, because the book didn't need to abruptly pull away from Szeth to go to Kaladin and re-center him. While Szeth is having a breakdown. It's about what the book decided was important. And hey, as long as the book wants me to focus on Kaladin instead of Szeth, maybe Kaladin could have been less infuriating about it.

[@Laloslawyer]

@ okay I’m just going to quote what you actually said on the pod, so you can understand why people may have missed your point. Because that’s not what you expressed at all. “Kaladin, Mr connection, Mr I’m gonna meet you where you’re at, Mr oh I’m halfway through this book and I’m supposed to be pretty good at this therapy thing right now, just a total whiff, he can’t understand Seth except through the lens of his own story?? Oh, it’s a tien?? Are you tien?? …He’s supposed to, by this point, Mr almost fifth oath, he’s been through this arc 4 books in a row, and Kaladin can’t understand or sympathize with someone unless it’s either me or tien - WHO ARE YOU?? This is supposed to be what you’re good at right now, IN THIS BOOK!“

[@darcy7257]

Actually it was the "Kaladin therapy" part of the book that missed the mark

[@Laloslawyer]

@@greywatch9365 and to be clear, I normally love and agree with many of your takes, but I do not think this one came off the way you wanted or intended it to lol.

[@greywatch9365]

@@Laloslawyer I mean, yeah, it was a long segment of the episode, and I started off the entire section with talking about valour stolen from Szeth by Kaladin. And now you know! It is correct to say that yes, I disliked that it for the reasons you said, but also... for even MORE reasons than you thought I was saying it. I personally don't find anything that depends on it being okay for it to be bad as satisfying answers. It doesn't make it more satisfying in my eyes, and the emotional core of why I hated it remains untouched.

[@heatherrockwell9012]

The majority of criticisms in this episode don't quite ring true for me personally---in particular, while I definitely agree that Kaladin took up too much of Szeth's space on a narrative level, I don't think Kaladin botched any of what he was doing in-world as severely as most of the people on this podcast do, and think most of it comes down to presentation issues---but I really admire everyone's ability to feel both very negatively about certain things and still maintain a lot of positive feelings about the book. It's something I struggle with a lot.

[@RegulusFlaminiusIndicus]

Imo Shallan's backstory works exceptionally well BECAUSE Shallan's mother is Chanarach. Of course the Ghostbloods would be present there because their whole thing is about finding out how Heralds get their bodies back. The steward being a ghostblood makes perfect sense as they were keeping an eye on the Heralds. The whole secrecy would also draw a cryptic to Shallan and in part because Chana is a Herald. The cryptic would mean Radiant and that would mean Skybreakers / Nale finding about Shallan so quickly. This incident also gives the context of how Helaran was impressed by Nale and the Skybreakers recruited him. Chana gives the whole context of what, why and how things happened in Davar house.

[@bubbles743]

Absolutely. And to add to that: in the video they are complaining, that the whole Chana is Shallans Mom theory only came from them both being red headed. That was just the reason people thought that is was Chana among the female heralds who was her mom. Mostly the theory came from WoR chapter 10: "The world ended, and Shallan was to blame" as well as Brandon always confirming that Taln didn't break. I really liked this part of book 5

[@RegulusFlaminiusIndicus]

@bubbles743 Me too

[@parkernoyce4295]

Big agree with you here. If this book didn't explain why every major secret society or Invested organization on Roshar was interested in the Davar home I would have been disappointed. A Herald's children are a big deal and a great reason for prying eyes to have focused there.

[@kandkchadwick-fisher3158]

It doesn't work for me because it ultimately ended up having absolutely no importance.

[@romegypt5675]

shannon was so obnoxious about kaladin. Yes, szeth WAS LIKE TIEN. He was yanked out of his childhood to join the military, JUST LIKE TIEN. He was tien if tien was forced to become a killer, and brainwashed to follow orders and laws without thought. Shannon has such a terrible view of what therapy is, and I can't believe she thinks using a framework someone understands to try and relate to someone else is somehow selfish. Did people think we weren't going to be getting kaladins perspectives on what szeth was going through? "Was that your brothers?" This is a FINE QUESTION TO ASK! Szeth has been short with kaladin up to this point, and it's not unreasonable to assume he may have had another sibling he hadn't mentioned. Kaladin is trying to figure out why the stoic assassin is suddenly breaking down crying at a toy. Kaladin has a similar token of his brothers in the carved horse. So Kaladin was wrong about what the toy was, but not in his assumption that it could've been a reminder of different times to szeth. Literally everyone uses a framework of their own life to try and understand others, and yes, szeth is sufficiently different and closed off that kaladin finding it difficult to relate to is to me, totally normal, and anyone thinking it's weird to have trouble relating to someone who is being very closed off is themselves closeminded in assuming everyone should infinitely be able to understand everyone and everything.

[@mahanarena5568]

FR. She was hating because she didn't get what she wanted.

[@greywatch9365]

I mean, I would have loved to get at least Szeth's on what what Szeth was going through. :) Also, Kaladin has already heard Szeth describe his family. He knows Szeth has a big sister and not a little brother. This is information he does have already. It was a deeply myopic moment where Kaladin did put his life overwriting Szeth's to understand him, and in the moment where I nearly had a strong emotion from this book with Szeth and the sheep plushie, being forced out of the moment by a silly unthoughtful question did give me a bad emotional reaction. It doesn't have to be yours, but yes, actually, my emotional reaction to the scene does make sense. Now it doesn't have to be your emotional reaction, but I'm not obnoxious for having it. Be well.

[@romegypt5675]

@@greywatch9365 the way you described and ranted is what made it obnoxious, not the take itself.

[@greywatch9365]

@@romegypt5675 oh, okay, well then that seems inappropriately personal.

[@alexayers8904]

I think part of it is that Kal comes across centering himself a bit too much (which is subjective). Szeth is similar to Tien, but not the same. Kal spends a lot of time thinking Szeth is like him, then like Tien without really considering a third option (or partitioning aspects of Szeth’s story into other characters he’s helped, known, etc). IMO, didn’t bother me, but Kal did some across very annoying and unhelpful for much of the arc with some good moments (like the stew).

[@caioeduardo42]

Imo Szeth taking a stand for not fighting Nale and asking for help was really massive growth from him instead of just being an excuse for kaladin to fight like I've seen some people argue for actually reminded me of a certain One Piece scene that is one of my favorite scenes in media to date and I loved to see him trust someone else

[@kayhan1264]

Luffy help me?

[@greywatch9365]

I WEPT over that moment with Nami, and god I wish I could say the same for this, but... the emotion just really wasn't there in the same way. A completely different reaction, unfortunately.

[@Loomx5]

Right? How is can people see that as Kaladin stealing Szeths moment? Not fighting IS Szeth's moment!

[@Aldrad215]

@@caioeduardo42 I think I also read it this way; Dalinar and Szeth’s arcs in this novel kind of mirror and reflect each other. They’ve both been one thing (a hammer, a weapon, a tool applying force), and they needed to be something else. I think Nale’s scene mostly worked… if not for a bit of cheese that felt a little too “quick” from Kaladin’s side.

[@elekbuday81]

Yeah, Szeth's arc in this book is learning that he doesn't have to do things just because someone else wants him to - he's allowed to choose for himself. And Szeth has made it *very* clear over all 5 books that he *doesn't want to fight any more*.

[@micahlarimer155]

4:14:50 - the fact that Karbranth was spared was definitely meant to undermine Taravangian. He is so obsessed with doing what is right despite the difficulty, and fails in this regard. He is ultimately proven a hypocrite (as we all are, but at least we admit it).

[@etarckneus9702]

He admitted it too.

[@infinitesingularity8477]

It also feels like that has to play some role in his ultimate defeat - Taravangian made a deal with Odium as a man to protect Kharbranth, and the fact that he almost killed them, and then hid them away seems to setting up the idea that it’s a weakness that’s going to be part of what leads to his undoing.

[@blanketslol]

Yep! I also think it's a setup for Valor (complete crack theory). Valor is hiding in the Spiritual Realm and created his own Valhalla for the fallen heroes.

[@mattwilcoxuk]

The danger with getting to super-fan status and also having to wait years between books... you form your own head-canon and theories, and when the author deviates from those, it's disappointing. With the pre-conceptions the cast here seem to have, I understand the gripes. I just don't share most of those preconceptions and think much of it was less Brandon "missing the mark" and more that "the mark" was not Brandon's mark. That said, I do agree with quite a few of the opinions that Brandon could've done better for some things in this book. It certainly needed another round of revisions / editing for language and tone - I've never had Brandon's writing throw me out of a book before. It did here.

[@17thShard]

Yeah, it's definitely a mismatch of expectations. But I think this is pretty natural for a big series, too. This book, like RoW, has been divisive, and the reasons why people like or dislike are all over the place. -Eric

[@mattwilcoxuk]

Agreed, I don’t think there’s anything “wrong” with forming your own theories etc, just that it’s why reality can end up disappointing - the more you’ve thrown into a theory the more the risk. I do hope Brandon actually listens to this episode though, because I think he’d learn quite a bit from it. Personally, I think he could do with slowing down a little bit and examining how past books have been understood vs how he’d intended them.

[@AGrassy29]

Spot on. Well said 🔥

[@greywatch9365]

@@mattwilcoxuk I... don't know that I came into this with any theories, honestly! Everything presented as an alternative came after the fact while trying to figure out, internally, the vibes after "huh, man, why didn't that work for me?" and throwing stuff at the wall as a suggestion for my personal feelings only. If I can say anything about the notions I came into the book with, I actually didn't think I was going to care about Szeth this much. I thought the Kaladin and Szeth story balance was going to be even more balanced in Kaladin's favour than it turned out to be, so what happened was a very pleasant surprise in how well Brandon wrote Szeth! It's just... the /sauce/ on Szeth transformed me so much WHILE reading this book that the reaction I had was completely new and unexpected, only in the time of reading WaT.

[@mattwilcoxuk]

Fair. People react how they react and take different things from the same material. I’ll be re-reading keeping this episode in mind. Personally I quite *like* (some of) the things that were complaints in the later half. I don’t want a book that’s “only write a thing if it’s directly relevant to some other part of the story” because that makes worlds small. I feel that making every part of every scene “relevant” would be more of a “for the fans” choice than anything else could be. I like having no idea why or how Taln tried to off Cultivation. I like the fact that being dropped in media res requires lacking context, and not knowing details to the general gist. I do think the journey of those visions was needed. Etc. Wrapping up a series still needs to be a story, as much as Way of Kings was - and that was nothing *but* mystery and scene vibes - it’s why we liked it. Szeth and Kaladin points… yeah I agree with a few of those criticisms for sure.

[@Purrplegal98]

Good thing Kaladin is on Ashyn because the Foreverstorm would be awful for his seasonal affective disorder

[@Tylersghostify]

Szeth killed a member of bridge 4 and paralyzed another and tried to kill Dalinar twice. Kaladin has had interactions with Szeth in past all extremely negative.

[@oswinhull4203]

Not to mention the countless other people Kal knows Szeth killed in his various other assassinations. In their early interactions on the trip Szeth in so many words accuses Kal of being weak, useless, and a coward. Szeth never apologizes or takes it back by the way. So yeah it is perfectly understandable for Kal, who is notably not a trained psychologist, after spending all of 2 days with this psychopath would question whether he should just give up and let this guy end himself.

[@lift_4_pancakes339]

Thank you i was losing my mind when they were talking about this... let's also not forget Kal effing killed Szeth in book 2

[@Lemerney]

But he doesn't ever think about that in his internal dialogue? He's all just, oh, this is guy is weird, and also he's hurt other people.

[@oswinhull4203]

@@Lemerney Kal specifically mentions how Szeth has killed hundreds of people and he is clearly miffed when Szeth says Dalinar sent him away because he is useless or when Szeth says he's a coward. We already know Kaladin's feelings on assasins and Szeth specifically. He has been giving Szeth side eye since the end of OB. People are already complaining there was too much telling rather than showing or there is too much reflecting about feelings in the book. I don't think it would have helped to have Kal specifically enumerate all reasons why Szeth is a deplorable person. We get the general idea from him questioning whether Szeth deserves to die.

[@fakjbf3129]

@@Lemerney There is an early chapter where Kaladin specifically wonders if he should let Szeth kill himself after the finish the quest. He quickly quashes the idea but it absolutely does cross his mind.

[@connor_phillipz5689]

I'm excited to get past the reaction casts and into the more specific deep dives into individual topics. While I disagree with a lot of the negative opinions I do understand how people could have them and think they're perfectly valid. It has been pretty disappointing though and kind of killed the vibe to go from the high I felt while reading the book to seeing how much a lot of you guys disliked it. Mainly because I don't have any IRL friends to talk about the Cosmere with, so these videos and limited discord interactions are the only times I get to experience these books with other people. Once we get into the deep dives though I'm sure a lot of that sentiment will go away and we can all collectively nerd out again.

[@17thShard]

Next week is Contest of Champions / Retribution, and so you'll feel much better at home. Obviously, the intent isn't to harsh your vibes, totally get that. -Eric

[@connor_phillipz5689]

@@17thShard No harm done at all. I understand the point of these reactions is to share your opinions and I wouldn't want you to be inauthentic about it because of the potential reactions that I and other people might have. Even though I disagree it is good to see different perspectives about the book and how other people experienced it. It was just a mismatch of what I expected from these casts and what I got. Ironically similar to how a lot of y'all felt about the book. lol

[@beeman4266]

I think the first 30 chapters really affected people's opinion on it. I know I wasn't alone with thinking the preview chapters felt.. different. But it was also the last time we're seeing the characters together for a long time. Plus we read them over the course of a couple months so we focused on them more than normal. There's definitely fair criticisms, but I think it's a much better book than RoW. The prose felt a little flat compared to normal and very matter of fact. Flowery prose never been something Brandon focuses on but to me it seemed like there was more telling and not showing at times.

[@connor_phillipz5689]

@@beeman4266 I specifically avoided the preview chapters as I wanted to read the book all at once, so I can't really relate to that sentiment. Interesting to hear that though.

[@joshwhite8862]

@beeman4266 I found the same issues with tonality of those first 2ish days, possibly longer, particularly day 1 felt off. And i hadn't read before release (was super hard to do haha) and did my reread to time so that i finished RoW the day my book arrived and went straight into WaT; felt like i missed the clutch changing gears, was very different. Just to say i don't think it can be purely attributed to reading it over a longer timespan.

[@troyharbpro]

Even if I don’t always agree, I hope you guys never stop freely voicing your critiques 😊 I appreciate the 17th Shard for holding the Cosmere to a high standard; it is good for the fandom as a whole.

[@oliverolson6578]

I think in some of the Szeth Kaladin area people were somewhat off point in Kaladin "stealing the spotlight" from Szeth. First of all, as others have said, Kaladin isn't some kind of mental health expert. He is working with essentially no data, and has been working on this project for a month. Kaladin was never really trying to be a good therapist, despite therapy words being forced into his mouth by the author. Kaladin came through for Szeth as a hero by standing strong when Szeth felt weak and uncertain and then allowing (and telling) Szeth to make the tough choices he had been unable to make up to that point. He took up the authority in moments where Szeth REQUIRED an authority and then handed the choices back to Szeth, saying he wouldn't choose for him. Kaladin didn't even really like Szeth at the beginning of this situation. He was forced to work with him due to his mission, due to being a soldier, and by the end he was standing by Szeth to fulfill his oath to protect. A large point of Szeth's character is that he DOES NOT WANT THE SPOTLIGHT but is forced to do some of the most negative and public acts in the story. Not everyone has to be turned into a turbo confident and self motivated individual in a 10 day span. Kaladin is laying the ground work by being a good friend and standing up when Szeth needs help.

[@franzi2354]

100% agree

[@caioeduardo42]

yeah I felt that him taking a stand for not fighting Nale and asking for help was really massive growth from him instead of just being an excuse for kaladin to fight like I've seen some people argue for

[@Stormhawk777]

Maybe the kaladin hate is a tone miscommunication In the audiobook Micheal Kramer is voicing kaladin with a lot of doubt and thought behind his therapeutic thinking I can see if you read his tone as more malicious or aggro it might flavour the whole storyline differently

[@alexayers8904]

Perhaps. Acting does apply a layer that text cannot. I do think Kal (who I had less issues with than others) does still come across as annoying almost to his and Szeth’s detriment. There’s a splash of unintentional Dalinar in Kal this book.

[@GardenGaymer]

I personally felt like this was Sanderson’s best book I’ve read to date! I’ve heard some negative reviews but I really loved it overall

[@charlestruppi7793]

I feel the exact same way.

[@17thShard]

I am so glad you loved the book! I want to firmly empower you and say that that's awesome, and totally valid. -Eric

[@charlestruppi7793]

@ absolutely. These books wouldn’t be as amazing if everyone just agreed on everything. The discussion and back and forth IS the journey. Thanks to all you and the team do on that front. Thanks that we have BS to provide the destination.

[@AGrassy29]

Lol yeah agreed. & it’s def not “one of the worst Cosmere stories ever”. I couldn’t continue after I heard that one. Insane stuff 😂

[@vinitpatel7517]

@@AGrassy29people with a straight face say this worse than something like Elantris 😭

[@MrsManley7]

I can’t fathom all these negative feelings. I was just so thrilled to be on the ride.

[@eliro5]

I agree fully. It was an incredible experience

[@17thShard]

I'm extremely glad! -Eric

[@thecomb3z786]

Sometimes being too close to something can be a bad thing in terms of enjoyment. If you notice, most of the discontent is about a preferred outcome not being selected by the author, rather than just experiencing the content. "Brandon should have..."

[@dreamshakejunya]

@@thecomb3z786 or even… an outcome running in the fandom that they didn’t prefer lol

[@Fieryxjoe]

Yeah I was gonna say... its so wierd to have a collection of superfans who are all in lockstep agreement that they hate all/most of the main characters.

[@SackOPotato]

I feel like we were reading different books 3:15:00 what is Shannon on about? What a garbage take. “This isn’t something I was ready for Kaladin to be doing” … neither was Kaladin … that’s the point. And 3:16:30 Alex piling on with more, Szeth’s “agency” is to not fight. I fundamentally disagree with these takes

[@alexayers8904]

Think of it under a different light, even if you disagree. In fiction, sometimes a character isn’t great or ready to do something, yet somehow succeeds. Whether it’s hacking or defeating a skilled swordsman-think of it in that light. Kal is proven right and effective by the narrative, even though we clearly see him not being good at it. What a character succeeds in varies on how much suspension of disbelief a person holds in a given area. As for Szeth, it’s not that he didn’t fight. The critique is that he did nothing after choosing not to. I doubt Alex or Shannon would take issue w/ Szeth’s inaction if Szeth at least interjected with some revelation/character insight during the fight or the flute scene.

[@dylanhalifaux]

I think at this point the thing that impressed me most about the book was the pacing. It did not feel nearly as big as it actually was.

[@17thShard]

On my reread, I thought the pacing was awesome. I have heard people find it exhausting, which fair enough but I loved it. -Eric

[@dreamshakejunya]

@@17thShardI felt like that was an intentional choice. I felt exhausted like Adolin did lol

[@pretty5793]

I agree! On my first read I was frustrated when we had to switch POVs. Especially to less interesting POVs. But didn’t feel the length it was well paced.

[@dylanhalifaux]

Don't get me wrong, it's a big book, but it didn't feel like one of the biggest books I have ever read, if not the biggest.

[@nroke1684]

Yeah, this book felt smaller than Oathbringer IMO. Felt way smaller than any Wheel of Time book too.

[@christianrapper5]

Mam, it’s almost like Kaladin is the main character or something.

[@GiuseppeBernal]

Yeah they are upset two of the main characters did what they've been doing in the past four books? What makes them think that would stop? Hell we have 5 more, expect more of it lol They seem to have made up their mind of what should have been and its really clashing with what actually was.

[@casoccer7]

right lol the complaining is so far off the mark

[@ExtraCarnex]

This ep was full of insufferable opinions.

[@plus9775]

​@@ExtraCarnex four and a half hours of "well it's not what I wanted"

[@BrokenOneReigns]

One of my favorite thoughts relating to the idea of Odium being "God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context," is that the same is true of Honor. Honor is equally separated from its context, from the virtues, the Shardic intents, that give it meaning: (Spoilers for the 16th Shard) Devotion, Mercy, and Reason. The Shard of Honor is literally Honor without Reason.

[@Sheija]

Yeah I think there's quote from this book - in Tanavast or Hoid's POV - about all the Shards being separated from God's divine love which "went to the best of them - Aona".

[@pretty5793]

If he does an Aona Novella that would be heartbreaking. I also like what he said about Ati. Ati was the best of them all. Nicest?! If you read mistborn era 1 you would have a different perspective of Ati. Leras the most brave…secret history reveals something different. I really want a book about shards and how they affect people who hold them.

[@GhostEmblem]

the lack of mercy in all of them is the most damning to me I didnt realize there was a mercy shard.

[@fenris5932]

I need to know what the situation with Adonalsium was pre-Shattering so I can definitively say that killing God was a bad idea. Because there's zero universe when having these fragments of divinity rolling around was gonna end well

[@Saturnine37]

I was thinking about this, too, with everything we saw with the other shards so far. I was glad to see it discussed in more detail canonically. It'll be interesting to see it affect the plot more, going forward.

[@passdoutcouchpotatos]

Lmao i loved the Kaladin arc in this book. I dont think he was ever a jackass?

[@Day1PC]

Yeah I didn’t get the jackass comment at all. Loved all the Kaladin scenes so much.

[@storeybook2727]

Me too!! I thought he arc was one of the most beautiful! Was so surprised by those comments and honestly the types of critics threw me off the episode - I understand everyone’s opinions are totally valid but I think Kaladin’s arc was really well done and the point was that he was trying, not that he was going to do everything right

[@donanausetcscom]

Yeah the Jackass thing just came out of left field for me. If I remember correctly it was because he was saying he thought Szeth was acting weird and didn't like Szeth, but I feel like everyone forgets Szeth killed 2 members of bridge 4 and was probably one of the most wanted men in Alethkar for killing the king at one time. Of course Kaladin is going to have a negative opinion of him and see him in a negative light, Bridge 4 were the ones he first swore to protect and save and he killed 2 of them and for a time had criplled one of them. I also think that people have forgotten that Kaladin can be quippy, when he was feeling better and Shallan would make quips at him he would give it back, but now that he isn't super depressed and seems to be acting a little more like that people are mad. (I might very well be wrong and just misremembering, I know where was one scene where he and Shallan were taking digs at each other, so I might just be applying that to more than I should)

[@franzi2354]

Totally agree - Kaladin is just one of my favourite characters ever and I enjoyed everything - and that ending was just great. I'm really not mad we're getting more of him in the following books

[@vinitpatel7517]

Kaladin the heart of the story

[@George_kinsill]

Not to be mean or insensitive, but I completely understand and sympathize where Kalandin is coming from in not wanting to help/save Nale and Szeth. While it turns out that they can be saved, they did commit countless murders. Szeth basically killed enough nobles in Jah Kaved to trigger a civil war, and Nale kille all of the budding radiants that otherwise might have saved the world, nearly ordering the death of Shallan and directly causing the suffering for Kaladin! Storms, Kaladin would not have been a slave if not for the hit Nale placed on Amaram. In my personal day to day life, there are many people that I would never harm, but sometimes I think the world would be better off without. For Kaladin to think this in the face of his world's equivalent of the head of the SS or NKVD is completely justifiable in my opinion. That said, I understand where most of the 17th Shard is coming from via a more psychological as opposed to sociological/political perspective. Turns out that the average/median person is not a mass murderer

[@scaredoclock3881]

My wife is a therapist, and we are both in our own individual therapy. Any good therapist will tell you for having these thoughts, you aren't mean or insensitive. You are human.

[@George_kinsill]

@@scaredoclock3881 , I appreciate that, assuming that you do not mean I am Human, as I am free of spikes and there is no Koloss blood in my lineage.

[@andrewszanto1216]

I guess I just don't understand what anyone expected Szeth to do vs Nale and Ishar? Kaladin was specifically sent there to help Ishar, that was literally the plan all along.

[@randallwilson1971]

My only regret is we won’t get evgeni vs Ian

[@17thShard]

Hah, yeah, scheduling and splitting people was challenging for these. -Eric

[@TheCree2010]

I respectfully disagree with Alyx and Ene around the TW: Suicide. I understand this is a very sensitive topic and everyone can handle this differently so I’m going to be very cautious of what I say and keep it short. Kaladin doesn’t have an understanding of therapy and is doing everything on the fly, he has a very natural and human response when frustrated and tired, regardless of how wrong it is. If Kaladin was able to be reflective and talk it through (if Kaladin had any training and understanding and talked to either of you at all) he would agree 100%. I don’t see this as an excuse though, it’s just a massive growth opportunity for some one who doesn’t fully understand what is going on and the gravity of the situation

[@curtiswfranks]

Hoid was super cool in this book. Idk how Chana attended the Spiritual Realm wedding for realsies, but the fact that Hoid cannot be replicated by visions which are made of pure and bountiful (maybe unlimited) Investiture is really eye-opening. The guy went from an immortal to a god, in my eyes. We cannot sleep on how wild and somewhat terrifying that information should be to us.

[@donovanporter7803]

I'm not really understanding all the negativity - maybe when I do a Stormlight re-read I'll get it.

[@17thShard]

I'm really glad you loved the book though. It's perfectly fine for you to feel differently! -Eric

[@donanausetcscom]

I think a lot of negativity is from how much everyone built up the book in their minds before release. I listened to a video talking about ‘are expectations just too high for SA5?’ After hearing the mixed to negative reactions and I think that’s a lot of why people are disappointed. We have had years building up these 10 days in our minds (like with the contract for example, expecting some massive loophole when in reality it was never going to be that) and for some Therapy Kaladin and him struggling with it, low magic defense of Azir and the spiritual realm just didn’t hit the extremely high bar that a lot of people had. I could very well be wrong. I know for me I’ve been busy enough with RL crap that the cosmere wasn’t in the forefront of my mind and I only just remembered WaT was coming out a few days before release and it is my favorite book in the series after reading it and going about halfway through the audiobook now. I had expectations yes, but I hadn’t been thinking about that and raising the bar for myself, I just expected a good Sanderson ride that had big cosmere implications and it went beyond what I’d expected. I’m just speculating since I don’t understand the negative reactions either, not trying to discount anyone’s opinions on the book because everyone’s opinion is valid.

[@dreamshakejunya]

@@donovanporter7803 it’s seems to me that most people just preferred the head canon they internally built up to what happened in the book

[@charlestruppi7793]

@@dreamshakejunya was thinking the same thing. Evgeni (who I totally respect) basically said he wasn’t that high on Odium’s hero because he really thought it should have been Gavilar. So that storyline wasn’t “bad” it just wasn’t what he wanted. Again, not picking on Evgeni, he’s just the clearest example I could think of for this.

[@17thShard]

I think this is much more, "I felt the book promised a certain thing, and I am disappointed with the result." For me, it's BAM. I wanted her to be released and be hyped, the book really seems to go that way. Then she just leaves. There were a LOT of people groaning long before this book came out about Gavinor child champion, so I can see why someone really doesn't like that. Same with Chana, or Syladin. I think when you don't like something, one thing you try to do is think, why did this not work, what could have worked instead? For me that's very natural to do with movies, for example. -Eric

[@Day1PC]

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, I guess. lol

[@Slater2113]

I’d argue that Kal is and has been a little bit of a jerk. That’s not him behaving out of character. He does this shitty thing all the time where he lets his depressive ‘dark brain’ vocalize ideas somewhat insincerely in order to bring people down. Syl has zero of his shit and slaps him on the back of the head and puts him back in a healthier state of mind. It’s part of what I like about Sanderson’s writing. He gives likeable characters flaws that are genuinely not likeable. So many other fantasy writers use ‘flaws’ in such a way that their character becomes even more sympathetic or likeable. Shallan, Kal, Dalinar, etc all have aspects of their personality that are actually just toxic and not fun to be around and I find that very human of them. It’s ok for good people to be shitty sometimes.

[@Stormhawk777]

2:59:50 Does Ene think Hitler shouldn't have done his most noble deed? These are thoughts that people in the real world have. The book is for ADULT fantasy enjoyers and contain complex and intense topics. I think Brandon handled the sewer slide topic with finesse.

[@federico3615]

Regarding the topic of therapy, they start by saying they’re bothered by Kaladin being portrayed as a perfect therapist, but then complain that he’s a bad therapist because his first patient concludes they need to commit suicide because of him. First of all, Szeth is not his first patient, since the first ones are from Rhythm of War, and he helps them. Second, it’s contradictory to say they’re bothered by Kaladin being shown as a perfect therapist but then get upset that he makes mistakes. Obviously, Szeth reaches this conclusion because it’s a recurring experience among people with suicidal tendencies that, when someone tries to help them, the likelihood of attempting suicide can increase. Kaladin, being inexperienced, ends up doing the opposite of what he intends to do, which is to help him. This shows that Kaladin isn’t written as a perfect therapist but as one in training. Moreover, when Kaladin says Szeth might need to kill himself, it’s not because he’s frustrated, but because he comes to a conclusion that he interprets as altruistic and empathetic toward Szeth, though it’s obviously not the right one. Again, Kaladin makes a mistake. I find it realistic that he does so. He doesn’t say it because he’s “a bad person,” as Ene claims, but because he reaches a wrong conclusion due to being new to this. Let’s not forget that Kaladin isn’t the best at processing emotions, so it makes sense for him to get confused or say things we might not agree with. It seems to me that the people on the podcast who criticize these parts of the book so passionately are doing so more from the perspective of having experienced situations similar to Szeth’s or being closely affected by the topic of suicide. They seem to want to see written what would have helped them or what they’d like to hear, rather than providing an objective analysis of the plot and characters.

[@infinitesingularity8477]

Speaking as someone who really liked the book, I found the perspectives in this episode really interesting, They helped to put words to some issues I had with the novel, particularly with the Renarin/Rlain/Shallan scenes and some of the Kaladin/Szeth stuff, though as someone whose favorite character is Kaladin I felt like the issues with spotlight were less abrasive for me. It feels like with the imposition of 10 days to the contest of champions from the end of the last book, stuff became a bit more rushed than it probably should have - Kaladin’s development of therapy to the point where he’s able to treat the Heralds, at least partially, the speed of how quickly he and Szeth reached a breakthrough, etc. That stuff definitely felt like it could have used more time. Even the Dalinar/Navani stuff felt like it could have used more time, particularly to explore the weirdness of the Spiritual Realm. A place where all times/places are one, as I think the Spiritual Realm has been described before, definitely should have felt more alien. That being said, I definitely found the flashback sequences cool, even the earliest ones, though I wish we weren’t distracted by all of the characters doing what felt like video game sidequests by talking with various NPCs in the vision. In some ways, it also felt like Brandon was trying to directly address criticism of some previous aspect of the books, and it came through a bit strong - the way that Kaladin reflects on his and Shallan’s (thankfully only potential) relationship in Day 3, the way that Dalinar references Kaladin’s struggle with the class system - and it also felt like this was the case with the term therapy, where we’ve all been joking/discussing the idea that Kaladin has started to develop a form of therapy, and lo and behold, through Hoid we get the word “therapy”, and this becomes the new word for the work that Kaladin has started, alongside a rant from Hoid about the Passions, which felt distinctly out of place. Are there more reactions after this episode, or are you guys moving into deep dives?

[@greywatch9365]

Fully love this comment, every time someone talks about this I also realize something new. I hope your holidays are peaceful and that you are well. Have a great night.

[@1talnfan797]

We'll be moving on to topic deep-dives next!

[@17thShard]

Some topics and WoBs next! -Eric

[@17thShard]

Wooooo this one is even longer than Reacts 1! Also, this one, to my understanding, is more negative than Reacts 1. Just so you knoooow~ -Eric

[@Axartsme]

Kind of sad that the reactions have been on the more negative side. I'm really hoping that the community doesn't lose sight of their love for the series because of some flaws they perceive in the books, I feel like this is what happened with The Wheel of Time community and a lot of conversations about the books are about the minor things people don't like nowadays. Not to say that y'alls negativity and criticism isn't valid I just hope it doesn't overshadow how much we all love the series.

[@17thShard]

I've said this in a few comments, but I think the thing to remember is: the vast majority of episodes we don't really put on our Critique Hat. If we are analyzing stuff that just usually isn't what we do (sometimes there is stuff to complain about, of course). Whereas Reactions episodes we do get to say our opinions effectively. I'll just say, if any cast members truly dislike things overall, I doubt they would have motivation to come on the show. This venture is paying for no one's rent. There's no financial incentive to be on huge episodes if people hated the stuff :) I think in this case, a lot of us feel the ideas on Wind and Truth were good, but could have been executed better. And if people reading this loved the book, awesome! I'm glad! I did too! I'll just say reactions on Discord and the forum is much more mixed. I think our episodes reflect that. -Eric

[@Axartsme]

@@17thShard yeah that's fair, sorry if it came off as me saying you guys shouldn't be critical. Obviously the most important thing is getting your actual opinions out there.

[@17thShard]

No it's all good :) I expect topic episodes will have our usual tone. (Until we do a Jasnah episode)

[@PakmanPulse]

@@17thShardThank you guys for voicing your genuine feelings in reacts! It’s obvious to me that everyone in this community loves the cosmere but the criticism makes it feel like a real discussion from the heart. Reacts would feel so bleh if it was just non-stop gushing

[@EllenSmyth]

When all the eyes of the cosmere turned on Retribution, my first thought was delvers!

[@Kk-fj5tn]

@@EllenSmyth YESSSSS!!!!

[@Trevorischillin]

That suicide section was hard to listen to, not because I'm sensitive to the subject, I just dont understand how you can argue Kaladin was acting out of character. Szeth has done heinous, evil things, he's a mass murderer. I wouldn't expect a lot of people to have sympathy for the suicidal desires of someone like that, let alone someone who has witnessed those acts firsthand. But Kaladin of course does, it just takes him a minute.

[@TacticalFluke92]

A lot of the issues with Kaladin being a therapist and flutist seem like everyone is thinking he's being portrayed as an expert at either. Kaladin is trying new things and fumbling through them. He's a novice making obvious (to modern audiences) mistakes in therapy and reached a point of "I can recognize what song you're playing" on the flute. He's not a therapist, he's an aspiring therapist. He's trying to figure out what that means, how it works, and reconciling that with the rest of his life while he figures out who he is. He knows that's what was happening with his PTSD support group and not much else. Maybe he got some basic therapy info from Wit off-screen, but even then he's basically a first-month undergrad learning how to do something nobody on his planet does. He handles it poorly and struggles to connect with people who have been adversaries and that's totally expected.

[@greywatch9365]

If the point is how inexperienced and fumbling he is, then maybe the book could have had him actually not fully center on them during some of Szeth's emotional moments and have him win on these points anyway... At some point, "Kaladin is new at this" doesn't cover quite that much ground of the issues I had.

[@TacticalFluke92]

@greywatch9365 I agree he shouldn't have been taking all the space in Szeth's story. Szeth basically learned to have free will and immediately abdicated his role in the story. Cheapens it a lot. My comment was more focused on the bad therapy aspect and changes to Kaladin's character. Not great but I can accept it and see some reasoning for it.

[@greywatch9365]

@@TacticalFluke92 Yeah, that's all fine, totally. But the way the word therapist is used in the book, the outright start to finish win that Kaladin gets on this.... it doesn't match any of the comments flooding this episode, the tone of what some folks would have me believe the book is trying to say about Kaladin's skill level does not match what the book is telling me about Kaladin's story. And I'm very sorry to everyone who feels that way, but I can't join you in that, it feels like inventing a little bit of extra justification on the side to make it work better - but it's just not in the book. It's just how I feel. I've been able to sharpen and redirect a little of the Kaladin thoughts I've had in the comments and I'm happy for the opportunity thoughtful responses like yours offer. It's appreciated!

[@benarkos539]

​@@greywatch9365I feel like your compliants are adressed in the book. Because the scene where Kal tries to help Ishar with the same methods he used before and he goes "Dude, I wrote that story stfu" shows exactly how inexperienced he is. His therapy doesn't even work in the scene. The "win" he got there was when he basically flushed out Odiums investiture from Ishar, leaving a still traumatized version of the herald but without the supernatural darkness present in his mind He also fails with Nale until he gets supernatural help in the form of the Wind. The only person he really helps with therapy though inexperienced is Szeth. And it's not like Szeth is magically healed. He simply convinced Szeth to start making decisions for himself. The win is that Szeth becomes a slightly better version of himself.

[@JoséRVFlores]

“Szeth has actually not been a character in Kaladin’s interactions before” Szeth didn’t try to kill Kaladin??? Am I misunderstanding this? I like all of these people but man this episode was wild. Opinions shared as facts. I hate how frustrated I feel 😤

[@Suge67]

Yeah these guests were sub par for sure. Not very thoughtful commentary

[@nathanolson8971]

Totally agree, I suffered through hoping it would get better but they just got worse and worse. So much opinion stated as fact, great way of putting it.

[@fakjbf3129]

I feel like a lot of people going into the debate had a much grander version of Jasnah in their head than what was ever actually in the book. Yeah when we first meet her people say that she's a great philospher, but everything she ever actually said or did came down to "I'm going to do what serves my interests best" and the only reason it even vaguely resembled utilitarianism is because she's not a totally selfish person so her personal interests tended to align with helping people. Everything Taravangian said was 100% right about her, she has spent four books claiming to be something that she isn't and now it bit her in the ass.

[@kayhan1264]

You are so right.

[@greywatch9365]

Jasnah was very grand in WoK. She's been filed down over time to be less so.... particularly this book more than others.

[@nathanolson8971]

Everyone needs to chill on the debate scene. The main lesson Jasnah teaches Shallan is that you can project confidence and people will believe you are as smart/capable/powerful as you want them to. And that’s what she is constantly doing. It’s no surprise that there are limitations and blind spots and weaknesses that have not been revealed

[@Axel-tk3tk]

​@nathanolson8971 this also justifies her loss more. Maybe if Taranavgian had pointed that out specifically it would feel better in the scene. Calling Jasnah a false person Not as great as she portrays herself.

[@SolitaryLark]

2:50:12 well I would argue this is showing he is bad at therapy that isn’t exactly the same as his specific situation… as he is the first therapist. Makes sense to me

[@SolitaryLark]

2:53:41 yeah I’m curious how people will view this later after further reflection. I think your supposed to be mad at Kaladins failures

[@SolitaryLark]

3:07:30 now this I agree more with. Kaladin should be better at this particular aspect of the therapy

[@SolitaryLark]

3:17:57 I would also say I never felt like Kaladin was good at playing the flute

[@carl11547]

The problem isn't that he's bad at therapy. The problem is, he's bad at therapy but it works anyway because he's the main character.

[@SolitaryLark]

@@carl11547 I don’t really agree with that characterization. He does well sometimes and poorly at others. I don’t think he ever succeeds when he messes up and does it poorly.

[@Stormhawk777]

2:45:40 No duh kaladin stole szeths scenes, szeth is out of his mind and suicidal. Szeth would have had no business talking the other wackos off the cliff edge.

[@fakjbf3129]

I agree with Argent that Maya's intentions were obvious, at least to me. I actually figured out that she was going to bring back the dead-eyes early on, mostly because why else would Sanderson have spent time having Maya explain them at the start of the book.

[@parkernoyce4295]

Super appreciate the time codes Eric! Also appreciate the cast's time and willingness to be niche public figures and go to bat for their real feelings about this giant 5 book experience.

[@Arezoo298195]

You’re right that a lot of the emotional beats of Shallans arc would have been the same regardless of herald but that’s not the point of her being a herald. The point is that TALN DID NOT BREAK!😂

[@1talnfan797]

Damn right

[@mndrew1]

I love how Hoid figured out he'd been hacked when his checksum test failed. :)

[@Vintagegaston]

Is it just me, or does Evgeni look like he has really been taking good care of himself?

[@_argent]

It's funny what a trim, a haircut, and dropping 30 pounds will do to a guy 😅

[@danielmorgan6793]

​@_argent Also any big fan of the Argent-led episodes, you generally do a better job of directing the group constructively 😅

[@_argent]

@@danielmorgan6793 thanks, but I had very little to do in this episode!

[@greywatch9365]

@@_argent Of course you were a great host! You put a lot of thought into how to structure this episode and were great at that sense of how to lead a discussion and when to move things on and suggest alternative explanations!

[@EnderGraff1]

Dude right?! Guy is making major face gains.

[@Fieryxjoe]

"Shallan isn't close to either of these men" he is her brother in law, what? She isn't allowed to be invested in the love life of the brother of her fiance/husbad of two years? Because you are all closer to Renarin than she is, apparently? Perhaps characters sometimes interact off page and just because family members don't have many scenes together doesn't mean they don't speak to eachother. She can instantly pick him out in the spiritual realm from his tics, they've clearly spent a lot of time together.

[@17thShard]

They mean, "where on the page have they had a relationship" which is very minimal. -Eric

[@infinitesingularity8477]

If you look at Shallan and Renarin’s interactions in previous books, most of what we’ve seen has been her thinking of him as weird and off-putting. In many ways, Shallan has some blind spots when it comes to her own perceptions and biases towards people, and that comes across in her early interactions with Kaladin (even into Oathbringer there’s some meanness, for lack of a better word, with how she treats him), but also her interactions with Renarin, where she repeatedly describes him in not particularly flattering ways. It’s possible that they’ve had time to develop that relationship in the one year between Oathbringer and RoW, but we haven’t really *seen* that. Also, her reaction as they’re discussing their feelings is kinda discomforting, it probably was meant to be read as her being invested in their love lives but it read kinda voyeuristic, almost, at least to me?

[@Haxerous]

3:05:18 i think Kaladin's character felt like it had a lot of "hand of the author" in it. Kaladin considering that Szeth should perhaps unalive himself felt like Brandon was pointedly adressing the audience who felt that way, or an audience who wasn't as empathetic to Szeth because of his crimes etc. It's also why i think he switched POV to Kaladin when Szeth is weeping with his plushie. He wanted the reader to connect with Szeth but he felt he couldn't do it and therfore used Kaladin/Tien as a crutch to do it. I feel like that's the reason why Kaladin's arc or his character feels a little off and out of place at times.

[@jasonlarkin8807]

I'll just assume its the Wind instead 😉

[@franzi2354]

Kaladins ending had me low-key sobbing in my bedroom at 4am.

[@franzi2354]

Also I'm really not mad we're probably getting more Kal content in books 6 - 10. He's just one of my favourite characters of all time.

[@cephandrius5281]

​@@franzi2354It's very surprising to me that people are upset about that. I would have been FURIOUS if Kaladin was killed or something

[@yremogtnomnad]

Same here. Specifically the fact that his eyes turned dark again hit me VERY hard for some reason

[@brianhgold]

While I didn’t fully agree with everything, listening to you all share your opinions - which were, by and large well-founded and supported - was refreshing. I think it’s important to have this space to disagree about things, and to express both our positive feelings and our negative feelings. Because at the end of the day - this is art, so we won’t always agree. And that’s a good thing! While it will probably be at least a year until I read the book again, the things I heard will definitely be things I think about next time through (not only as I read this book, but the entire series). Thank you all for this wonderful episode. And don’t let the haters get you down.

[@dudelamak]

My issue with this book is that Shallan´s issues was not solved in book 4. I felt the Shallan stuff were repetitive. There were also too many view points to go through in the final book. I loved the hero og ages revelations because there were not too many view points, but stormlight has too many. Some of it should have been solved in previous books. This book felt like a slog to me. I still liked the book. I give it 6/110.

[@blakeloxtercamp]

Love the channel, but gonna skip this one. I enjoyed the book and the opening universal negatively was a bummer. I’ll catch the next episode.

[@17thShard]

There's actually a good 90 minutes of positive, oddly enough, but yeah absolutely no worries! -Eric

[@blakeloxtercamp]

@ good to hear, I’ll check it out

[@17thShard]

I think it doesn't get negative until about two hours, the Dalinar/Navani stuff, but yeah up through the True Desolation timestamp you should be good. -Eric

[@storeybook2727]

unfortunately me too - appreciate everyone sharing their opinions but reacts 1 had me feeling a bit down because Ioved the book - have found out that maybe reactions episodes aren’t for me!

[@17thShard]

Oh, yeah, if Reacts 1 was too much, I wouldn't watch the second half of this one, for sure. I am truly glad you loved the book though! I love it too. I'm at a good point (since my first read was a long time ago) where I can enjoy and meme with the rants and find it funny most times. -Eric

[@philsajor6724]

Can't wait to hear Evgeni's take on the book! 😂

[@Kk-fj5tn]

What I’m chiefly waiting for…

[@curtiswfranks]

I like the fact that Adolin is the only one who won. That is thematically important.

[@EllenSmyth]

I thought that the Chana theory came from the Word of Brandon that said we had seen all 10 heralds, and we could easily find the other nine. In searching for Chana, the only one that made a wee bit of sense was Shallan's mother. (Looking. In 2017, Peter confirms that we have seen Chana onscreen by at least one character and at least one time in the first two books.) Once Brandon took what he called a precocious (I think) sip of water as soon as he was overtly asked the Chana question in the spoiler Q&A, and both the bluntness of the question and Brandon's reaction may have been the best part of the whole Q&A, we knew Chana-Mama was going down. But even better than that, at the Worldhopper Ball, Chana-Mama showed up and got chased around by Wit telling her that Shallan was not yet ready to face seeing her and coping with all of that yet. He laid it on thick! Of course, y'all may have read the books before the Worldhopper Ball and Spoiler Q & A.

[@trolledchaos6531]

Plus, we know from book 1 IIRC(might be book 2) that Shallon's mom definitely agrees with the Skybreakers' radiant murders. From there, it's literally just connecting her to Nale and Ishar & that's more than enough info to make herald theory.

[@EllenSmyth]

@@trolledchaos6531 And when we got a WoB that Taln did not break the Oathpact, we knew that some other herald had died and broken the pact. All of that was before the prologue. The theory was somewhat iffy before that time, but the prologue really drove home the timeline of Chana-Mama's death.

[@tadious9415]

I would also add the element of Taln returning just before the Everstorm made him holding out irrelevant. That's really odd timing that makes a lot more sense if a herald died. Shallan's mom also acts pretty strangely. We also get Shallan bonding pattern who is certain that she will kill him, and the cryptics will send another. Which after Testament is kind of crazy they'd send a third unless there's some reason for them to be so fixated on her. The red hair I think really just narrowed it down for which herald. But there was a lot there pointing to a mystery we didn't know yet with Shallan's past specifically with her mother, and her being a herald fit very well. I think this was a great well set up reveal from Sanderson not just something from the red hair, or even just from the WoBs though they played a role.

[@oswinhull4203]

It was a really solid well reasoned theory. It was based on much more than just her hair color as Alyx said. The foreshadowing was brilliant. Not so telegraphed that it was obvious, all the hints were there for the astute reader, and in hindsight it seems obvious.

[@insertname5371]

That and a general sense of how brandon forshadows reveals with the shallan ended the world part from book 1

[@Stormhawk777]

I think the big climactic scenes, other than the renunciation, could have used a little more emotion and build up so they punched harder but other than that I liked the book. Definitely could have used more Vasher. The Nightblood character progression is soooo exciting.

[@Saturnine37]

I was just losing my mind thinking of all the conversations Nightblood must be having with all the Honorblades. That must have been quite an experience for it given all the things the Honorblades must have seen.

[@17thShard]

Honestly I really wanted a Nightblood conversing with Honorblades interlude... -Eric

[@Saturnine37]

@@17thShard if length was no issue, I think I would be very happy if we got 3 interludes after every part. With the extra interludes all just being conversations and reactions we didn't see during the day. Maybe them going to bed every night... Nightblood was not asleep.

[@randallwilson1971]

I understand passionate people having reacting passionately, epically with a project they had a lot of emotional energy and expectations for, but overall, I loved this book. It’s a masterpiece. There are parts that that I may have issue with, but this is an avengers endgame level book

[@randallwilson1971]

But I love these hosts and I love the work that they put in! This is such a passion project for them that I appreciate so very very much!

[@17thShard]

I'm glad!! -Eric

[@pretty5793]

Avengers Endgame is Dragonsteel. This is trying to be the first Avengers but it is like age of ultron (movie).

[@_mundus]

Avengers Endgame is a good metaphor for me because it's also not a perfectly executed movie which I was able to THOROUGHLY enjoy anyway.

[@dabloodynine]

Lord I was really looking forward to this but I'm not sitting through 3 more hours of this group hating and nitpicking this book. I think I need to take a break from this channel

[@17thShard]

I think the topics will be much more up your alley. Reactions are where we can be more critiquey. That was how TLM and RoW went. Also at least so far in the premiere, they haven't gotten negative yet :P I am glad you liked the book, of course! Lots have, lots have also really hated it it seems. -Eric

[@pretty5793]

People hated lost metal and loved bands of mourning. I liked lost metal and rank bands of mourning as my least favorite cosmere book. So, we might not all like the same books.

[@17thShard]

Yes! Reactions vary, and that's okay. But it's also completely fine that if you love the book then you can skip this one overall. -Eric

[@nathanolson8971]

I’m normally a big fan of this show but I think I’m done. The past few episodes have been SO annoying. I feel like it’s usually interesting conversations with fun people who know the ins-and-outs of the cosmere, speculating on things to come or what might be happening in the background of the books, picking up on hidden details and discussing popular theories, etc. Now it just feels like a bunch of self-proclaimed literary experts who shit on everything in the book that they think they could have written better than Brandon 🙄 It’s becoming too painful for me to suffer through those parts in order to enjoy the parts where they actually discuss the content of the books. I’m fine with contrary opinions and critique of the story and writing, whatever. But when that’s all there is, it gets old so fast. Time to explore the other cosmere podcasts again and see if they’ve improved

[@federico3615]

I don’t agree with the opinion that Kaladin has a bad character arc regarding therapy and the idea that he’s supposed to be an expert at it. Throughout the story, it is repeatedly mentioned that Kaladin is still in the process of learning and that it’s a struggle for him. Early on, Kaladin has moments where he blames himself for not being able to help Szeth, and he talks to Syl, telling her that he’s not cut out for it. She reminds him that it was just as difficult with Bridge Four and makes him try again. There are moments where Szeth explicitly criticizes and mocks Kaladin for his poor attempts and for trying to force similarities between their stories where none exist. Rather than portraying Kaladin as a good therapist, I feel the book emphasizes the idea that he still has much to learn. If there’s something I didn’t entirely like or think could have been handled better, it would be the therapy sessions with the Heralds. I understand that in these two cases there are magical factors at play (the Fifth Ideal and the flute with the Rhythm that brought them to Roshar), but they felt too rushed and perhaps overly simplistic, considering we’re talking about beings over 5,000 years old.

[@federico3615]

I completely agree that it would have been more coherent for the story if Szeth had been the one to help Nale, perhaps with Kaladin’s support. Maybe Kaladin could have shared the story with Szeth, and Szeth could then relay it to Nale while Kaladin played the flute or something along those lines. I share the view that having Kaladin be the one to solve the mental struggles of all three characters feels a bit anticlimactic and takes away from Szeth’s prominence.

[@curtiswfranks]

I figured out Shallan's mom's identity on my own before joining the community and it had nothing to do with the art. There are major textual hints to it throughout the books. One of the chapters literally begins with something like "The world ended and Shallan was to blame" - a line which is verbatim (modulo maybe a line break) repeated in this book. Maybe I am too partial to my own ideas and insights, but the theory was never dumb to me because it had so much evidence in its favor. And the refutations of it were never more convincing than that evidence.

[@Axel-tk3tk]

I don't remember if I figured it out, but I do remember this line and people theorising that Shallan caused Return because of this line.

[@zapzya]

I guess this is a somewhat hot take, but the Jasnah debate scene wasn't all that bad. As some one who isn't well versed in philosophy (besides a surface level understanding), the detail was fine. I think it makes sense that Jasnah wouldn't be well versed in defending her utilitarian views, as most of the time people only want to discuss her religious/ heretical views. There likely hasn't been that much time for self reflection in the time since Oathbringer due to the war, so having the realization only hitting home now that she can't commit to utilitarian views is fine. I'm not saying it couldn't be better, I'm sure there were ways to weave in deeper philosophy without losing some one with my shallow background knowledge, and Fen could have had more agency. I just don't think it's as bad as most on shardcast make it out to be. But to each their own.

[@alexayers8904]

I think it depends on how aware of philosophy someone is. I didn’t have much an issue until the end (because the ending note was like the basic 101 counter to utilitarianism which makes it strange that Jasnah had nothing for it). I think it would’ve helped if it were more couched in the negotiations between Odium and Fen.

[@MamulengoBR]

I'm someone who goes deep in philosophy and honestly I liked the debate. Jasnah herself said that while she prepared for arguments Taravangian went straight to the facts about her: when push comes to shove, she will always put her family and kingdom above her utilitarian ethics, and because she does that, she can't say without being a hypocrite that Queen Fen is wrong making a deal with Odium

[@tesiu101]

Oh boy. The Szeth/ Kaladin rant just got me. Why was Kaladin "stealing" spotlight from Szeth... Because he's Kaladin. Adonis duel in WoR, him killing the pursuer (not sur the spelling) in RoW twice it's just what he does. And Szeth just follows orders. Of course Kaladin Will steal the show iy would be stupid if Szeth would do it. Because why would Szeth do it now, not the countless times he obeyed orders from people holding his oath stone. And going back to Kaladin he is the best thing Roshar has close to be a therapist, i would not fear better and sure would love the wind to help me. Rant over love the show but this time i feel that way your expectations of what things should be and what they realistically could be are way off. But that's just my opinion and I admit your point of view is equally valid.

[@greywatch9365]

I came in expecting Kaladin to have taken over even more and for me to not care about Szeth at all. In fact what I got presented with changed my mind as I was reading, not an expectation I came into it were going to be. Szeth's story was way way better than I thought it was going to be and so many of Kaladin moments that we got felt like they were Szeth's story, not Kaladin's. I guess I'll own that I expected Kaladin moments would feel like part of his own story, but since he's landed Kaladin's moments being solidly in a story for him for four books and I loved those every single time, this is more a "I was expecting Brandon to do this the way he's always done it". I've never ever had a problem with the centrality of Kaladin, until this book, and even then - just the specific moments mentioned. I wish I could be sorry that Brandon put so much excellence in Szeth's writing that when the camera veers away from an emotional catharsis moment for Szeth, but even if it made me like Kaladin in WaT better, I like Szeth too much now to wish it taken away, too.

[@tesiu101]

Sorry rant still on. Of course Kaladin is shit at therapy he was able to help people with battle shock so he tried this method so it worked. This makes a lot of sense. I saw a lot of people that learned a thin that work and they tried to apply that working method to all the problems, people do this all the time. Kaladin is no exception. He is no pro he is still a beginner, he nearly jumped to his death a couple days ago. He berley helped himself and he is trying to apply the same steps that help him to Szeth.

[@greywatch9365]

@@tesiu101 Then I wish tbh Kaladin's win at it hadn't been so obvious and unambiguous. I can be told over and over again how inexperienced and bad Kaladin is at this, all the while the book is doing the equivalent of playing the background music as it works anyway and still continues to be a beautiful moment. There's a huge mismatch in these facts about how good Kaladin is supposed to be at this and how the book presents it.

[@tesiu101]

​@@greywatch9365 ok, i can see why you think that. So we will need to just disagree on that. And that's fine :) Great episode eater, way made me re-think a lot of this book. And i agree that the book would benefit from 1 or 2 more revisions and the dragonsteel deadline was a mistake. Still love the book.

[@greywatch9365]

@tesiu101

[@Fieryxjoe]

And another one... "Shallan was too wierdly controlling about what they should do with Mishram... that was weird" Its 3 people basically deciding if they should do from her PoV the equivalent launching a nuke and she is supposed to not have an opinion or not fight for it, just trusting the decision of the 2 people you were saying 10 minutes ago she barely knows. Her opinion wasn't any stronger than the other two, it just wasn't the opinion you liked.

[@greywatch9365]

I mean yeah, I'll own that, I hated the way she did it. I found her a little weirdly controlling with the other two the whole spiritual realm trip, and I'll absolutely own that I didn't like it because I didn't like it. Tautological reasoning works for some things I suppose!

[@deanexikanas1988]

I really want Brandon to write a whole lot of short stories set during the 10 year time skip on Roshar, and release it as a collection at the beginning of the year of whenever he decides to release Stormlight 6 to prepare as for diving back into a changed Roshar

[@carl11547]

OK, which alternative do you like? 1)No Elantris sequels 2)Add a year to the gap before Stormlight 6 3)No Rock novella and also add 6 months to the gap Pick at least one.

[@deanexikanas1988]

@carl11547 well a rock novella can be part of the collection. Short stories are probably easier to write for Brandon, it's the editing that takes time, so add a year to the next Stormlight release and give us more Roshar stories, pre and during the time skip.

[@deanexikanas1988]

@slidenaway it's not that I don't think they can be incorporated in the back 5, but these books are already very big and I don't want to take away pages on developing the story of the back 5 to focus on the time skip when a collection of short stories could do the same thing.

[@woofergranade2044]

Cultivation wanted this outcome. She literally said she wanted Taravangian to carry Odium “with honor”!

[@GaaMacgfx]

The experience you folks had with the spiritual realm visions being underwhelming or not dramatic enough was the same I had with the rest of the book, the writing treated some things as similar to one another when in fact they had to be WAY more epic. Like, Sizil breaking the oath? HELLO. It was so sudden and it seemed like the book didn't really care about it. Just marking a check list of things that had to happen according to the outline.

[@Nicklaus_Gaut]

I didn’t love everything about WaT and certainly don’t mind hearing critical observations of Sanderson but this episode’s general tone of haterade-marinated smugness is very off-putting. But I do, at least, appreciate them flying that flag early, allowing me to just dip out. So thanks for that.

[@nathanolson8971]

I really wish I’d dipped out, kept staying and hoping the haterade smugness would come to an end. Spoiler warning: it did not

[@EnderGraff1]

They're upset that Kal is a bad therapist but also are mad that he doesn't know what a therapist is. How is he supposed to be something he doesn't know? He's trying - thats the whole theme of the book and Adolin outright says it.

[@CudiBuddy4Life]

Argent’s slight smile the whole time makes me think he made some valuable contributions to this book & he’s glad to see them being talked about Also Shannon is over here contemplating the foreshadowing instead of speeding through it like the smooth brain I am haha Okay I have to disagree with the Kaladin treatment

[@greywatch9365]

big eyes emoji i love contemplating

[@_argent]

Most of us did! I am more fond of my friends' and fellow beta's contributions, and proud for them too. I was mostly smiling because I like talking about these books with my friends :)

[@CudiBuddy4Life]

@@_argent that’s one of the most heartwarming replies in the Cosmere. My golden retriever-axehound approves I think we all see these negativities, but I’m so glad this book is HERE. the only other reliable author I know is Joe Abercrombie And also…thank you all for helping him. We see you as KZbinrs or Podcasters…..but you are the real life Pillars of Mammoth proportions. It may not be your book but it is HIS book. Rather it be written then feared and forgotten

[@caradine898]

Mark my words that a "mature" honor/odium shard could be shifted to an intent of Redemption. The concept is even signaled within several parts of the book, and if Taravangian is defeated, I think it is very possible someone could pick up the shards to mark that shift.

[@Haxerous]

Justice seems more likely.the character arc of Honor and it's lack of understanding of what is right and empathy, obedience etc feel very much in line with Szeth's character arc and the notion of what the law means for the common man.

[@XxnifflashxX]

​@Haxerous justice seems just as Vague a concept as honor if you ask me and I believe if justice is what it turns into it would literally be honor 2.0 as there are horrible things that have been done in the name of justice.

[@Haxerous]

@@XxnifflashxX all the shard concepts are vague. That's just how that works.

[@Haxerous]

@@XxnifflashxX also for it to become redemption it would need Cultivation to be in there as well

[@XxnifflashxX]

@Haxerous fair point they are all Vague. but how does honor + odium + cultivation = redemption? Sounds like chaos

[@_mundus]

My biggest gripe with the Szeth Kaladin section is actually pretty small but it's just the fact that Szeth accepting death like that is clearly against Life before Death and should have consequences on his bond and his spren should have been vehemently against that.

[@Axel-tk3tk]

I hadn't thought of that. Good point

[@charlestruppi7793]

I have a feeling that somewhere around book 7/8, a lot of folks who were negative on book 5 are going to do a reread and be like “oh crap, that book was freaking awesome”.

[@dreamshakejunya]

Lol yep! There are a lot of nitpicks lmao.

[@pretty5793]

I hope so!

[@alexayers8904]

Not too sure as it depends on what one dislikes and however it’s conveyed in the text. For me, I tend to drift in a more critical (not necessarily negative) direction.

[@charlestruppi7793]

@@alexayers8904 one can be hopeful, right 😜

[@oswinhull4203]

Yeah so many really big things happened in this book. Also it does a ton of setup and expands on the lore.

[@patrickboyle1135]

So, on the "at least there was no Unmade" comment in the Chana section...Brandon has said there was an Unmade influencing the Davar household. Was this just misdirection, or is there still yet another secret in Shallan's past? Maybe plays into the whole 'why would Chana pick Lin?' question? Hm. It was a bit weird when the Worldhopper Ball made this reveal though. The dialog apparently became more explicit at later sessions; At ours on the last day, Chana was going on about how she had to see her, and Wit explicitly says she has to go back to Braize.

[@DerekAGilbert]

Feels like a big theme going forward is self aware investiture. Syl, honor, etc.

[@DerekAGilbert]

Oh, I just remembered, nightblood was the other investiture thing learning and changing.

[@curtiswfranks]

I think that "Why would Chana choose that man, of all possible people, for a husband - and why not sooner or later?" are exactly the correct things to ask.

[@DylanCarter-p3i]

Id be interested on your takes of the 4th moon, in the part 1 they seem to think its just the well of control but my view was tfellit fell before the shards and honour didnt know what it was its described as a strange metel i was thinking some valuable metal thats going to be needed ie. Silver or some sort of ado god metal before the shattering?

[@17thShard]

We will definitely have an episode on fourth moon! Just to clarify, I don't believe we said the moon chunks were the Well of Control. They are certainly shielding it and making it hard to detect. I believe we speculated as to what that metal is, but that's not the same the Well of Control. -Eric

[@DylanCarter-p3i]

@17thShard yes sorry I knew you didn't think the moon chunks was the pool I just meant they wasn't much talk about it and I thought they would be I understand these things will need full episodes I'm looking forward to you argent and David talk about the more magic and cosmere building as a whole keep up the good breakdowns I love hearing your theory's on the channel

[@DylanCarter-p3i]

If argent has any early theory's he'd like to share I'd love a reply of him aswell thanks

[@17thShard]

10000% will discuss the moon more! -Eric

[@javontemacavelli9013]

In a weird way I think that the book would have been better if it was a bit longer and the plot that we got in RoW was wrapped up more quickly (3 parts). It could have easily happened as we really didn’t do much in RoW. Some number of Venli flashbacks, Shallan traveling, kaladin defending, and navani sciencing could have been cut. They were all repetitive by the end of the novel. We could have started the countdown with the last two parts, ended with like a cool confrontation between odium and cultivation or something climactic that really set the tone for the upcoming end of the countdown. End of the book could have been hoid finding out what Tarovangian did or something. The reason I say this is because it would have made RoW feel less repetitive and given Brandon more space to really nail plot lines that were almost very very good. I think that all of them were pretty close to feeling excellent, but ultimately felt a bit rushed. Kal and Szeth could have done a couple more things in shinovar. There would have been more room for development in the Moash V Sigzil battle which could have been awesome. More time for the spiritual realm to be explored from the dalinar and shallan side. More time for ba ado mishram to actually do something once free. More time for the battle of champions. Better Jasnah chapters. Ultimately the macro story line was very good and Retribution was a great end to the first Arc. I don’t even dislike where a lot of the characters micro situations ended up, some of the ways that we got there just needed a little more polish imo.

[@lacramaldita2230]

"The flute chapter is bad." These people did not have a childhood.

[@ohmage_resistance]

IDK if any of them will see this (because I’m kinda late and there’s no way this will be liked), as someone who has definitely gone on a few rants about Kaladin and Szeth’s arc myself, I just want to say I really appreciate and wholeheartedly agree with Alyx’s, Shannon’s, and Ene’s contributions on that topic (as well as other stuff). I know they’re getting a lot of hate in the comments, but as someone who got a lot of catharsis from it, their contributions were definitely my favorite part! My biggest issue is that Szeth and Kaladin’s plot line was supposed to be a healing arc, and healing arcs (meaning ones where the main focus is on a character getting to a mentally healthy place, as opposed to it being more of a supplemental thing like in the previous books) are character driven by definition. Sanderson tried to write a plot driven healing arc as the main plot of this section of the book, which imo just doesn’t work. I feel like the lack of focus on Szeth (you know, the character who’s supposed to be having the actual emotional healing character arc), was a major factor in this, so I’m really glad that this was pointed out.* I also feel like this resulted in so much telling/lecturing from Kaladin instead of actually being able to sit with Szeth and feel his emotions with him (or even being able to feel Kaladin’s emotions instead of just being told them). It also felt super rushed, on a deadline, and artificially contrived to match plot beats (the fights), which is the opposite of how healing arcs should feel. This is adding onto Sanderson conflating trauma from being enslaved/not having choices with trauma/guilt from being violent in a way that was never really clarified or untangled. Therapy also doesn’t work unless the person receiving therapy is on board with it. So it feels weird that Kaladin was trying to basically therapize people without their consent, and that was like, super successful? *I think Jun’s arc in The Spear Cuts Through Water by Simon Jimenez is similar to what Szeth’s could have been, if the angle of a character having guilt/trauma from realizing how terribly and unnecessarily violent they have been was taken and really focused on. Also, yes, the cuts to Shallan’s reactions in Renarin and Rlain's arcs are so out of place! Also, you’re telling me that two gay guys both from homophobic societies just love to be voyeured on? That Renarin, again, who is from a homophobic society, just loves for a really vulnerable moment to be entertainment for a woman he isn’t even close to? Totally agreed about the criticism about Jasnah’s arc. I do agree that there was a gendered element to this and I have even more complaints about how gender was handled in this section as well. I also agree with the complaints about Moash and the decreasing relevance of darkeyes/slavery as themes once they can no longer be used to make a cool underdog protagonist (Sanderson has done a similar thing in Mistborn, Skyward, and Warbreaker as well, and now that I've seen the pattern with that...) Anyway, sorry to be so negative, but I could keep ranting for a while, lol. And I’d love to listen to way more than 30 minutes of a rants on the Kaladin and Szeth section!

[@17thShard]

I read the comments! Thanks for all the thoughts. I know a lot of people did not like the episode (and I can see the point there), but I do definitely think there are people who feel as you do, and you deserve to have an episode, too! Glad you enjoyed. Not that we will always have a positive Reacts episode and a more negative Reacts. We have not done this before. It will completely depend on how a given book lands with the cast! -Eric

[@Diddykartdui]

I’m so curious what it was like to give this feedback months ago and see nothing change

[@Chu9947]

thank you Shannon/Grey for echoing a lot of the complaints i had with the book.

[@enbyglitch]

I think Brandon killed it with the moral of questioning absolute, unbending law throughout! Szeth's arc really culminated for me with the "I see no evil, merely confusion" line and how Nightblood is also growing Thank god this isn't ***the perfect book***, that would put every cast member and many viewers out of our dreams of writing something like this one day 😅

[@BlackHand531]

Is this an inside joke when everyone hates on kaladin? Am I missing something? Or do people not like him?

[@curtiswfranks]

All of this concept of the Shards growing, learning, becoming fuller, and self-improving strongly reminds me of the religion of the One.

[@Nicklaus_Gaut]

That’s what I’ve felt the ultimate Cosmere ending will be framed around…The Shards returning to “the One” after their journeys of self-improvement to reforge Adonalsium v.?

[@zekespops1]

After loving the Cosmere for the last 17 years since before we knew there was a Cosmere, and strongly disliking this book... It's so nice to see a negative review from some super fans. Very validating. It probably should've been 3 books, all more fleshed out.

[@boppy9617]

1:34:28 "shallan and rayse's relationship" what?? am I hearing that right?? (I've read w&t)

[@OliveDrabCrusader]

I assume "Mraize, not Rayse."

[@boppy9617]

@OliveDrabCrusader omg 🤦‍♀️I'm as stupid as the first oathpact

[@pretty5793]

Lol! It was Shallan after all…she most likely forgot about it 😂 I think she meant Adolin

[@greywatch9365]

@@pretty5793 No, she absolutely ships Shallan with Mraize and has been interested in their relationship since Mraize's introduction.

[@pretty5793]

@@greywatch9365oh really! I have never thought anyone would ship Shallan and Mraize. Thank you for the clarification.

[@Kk-fj5tn]

I still struggle with Syladin…They reside in each other’s brains in a way that makes it so weird that they are developing feelings. It gives me therapist falling in love with a patient energy. To be clear, this is specifically in the direction of Syl to Kaladin. I don’t know. I would prefer them as lifelong friends and a short story in the back half where there is tension with someone Kaladin ends up marrying…I would assume that this kind of tension is not new to Radiants….

[@17thShard]

Honestly this is the fairest reason to dislike Syladin. This book sold me, but yeah, this POV definitely makes sense. -Eric

[@andrewszanto1216]

Evgeni's point at the end about the return to Roshar as a character really spoke to me

[@whitewolf8460]

Spoiler question: If Drehy and his squires could easily just fly to Lasting Integrity in a few hours why didn’t Shallan and Adolin just get them to fly them there in the first place? I know they couldn’t have used Azimir gate, but even flying from the tower oathgate wouldn’t it have been way faster?

[@fanghur]

3:04:23 Kaladin has killed people in war, but he hasn’t murdered innocent people in cold blood like Szeth has. Even though I largely agree with what you guys said regarding this particular issue, this was just a completely invalid comparison to make.

[@scaredoclock3881]

Wanted to chime in to balance out the negative comments. I disagreed with many points in this video but I think the criticism is valid and everyone has the right to their opinions. I am glad that y'all are able to share how you really feel. I would've thought this community wouldn't have so much backlash but the book is new, passions are high, etc. Just wanted to say I listened to both reactions videos and it just felt like debating my favorite IPs with my nerdiest friends. The "nitpicks" are the fun part. Those are the things you don't get in general discourse. I hope y'all don't take the comments too personally, to the point where you hold back your real thoughts in future reacts videos. Also commenters don't typically know how hard it is to stay engaged, and stay engaging in a live video conversation for this long. Props to everyone and have a happy new year :)

[@JessietheSleepyKoala]

Hey, thanks for the comment, it really does make our day. The negativity can be a lot so it's always nice to see comments like this, especially when it's coming from someone who disagrees with us. Really appreciate it - I would love to know what some of your thoughts about the book were if you were interested in sharing? - LadyLameness

[@chrispearce374]

The comment from Alyx about Kaladin not given a thought to the abolishment of Slavery on day 1, when he is in the tower seems harsh. I mean he was hearing the wind and basically WIT told him or definitely implied potentially his quest (will decide Roshars fate) would see him never see anyone again / die, yeah I wouldnt be thinking about the recent law changes in the slave trade!

[@curtiswfranks]

What if the prologue to each of the back-half books is the forming of the Oathpact from each of the Heralds' perspectives? I do not think that that is the most-interesting possible choice, but if we want more context and experiential insight into that event, then this would be one way by which to achieve it. I actually think that it will instead be in at least one of their non-prologue PoV flashbacks.

[@madeleinehoward3418]

Every time someone says they’re going to wrap it up, I look at the timestamp, giggle, and settle back in

[@levimusgrave5683]

Evgani, I agree it was extremely obvious that Maya was going to get the deadeyes as soon as she decided to leave

[@curtiswfranks]

I too wanted and was expecting a bit more antagonism between Adolin's supporting cast and himself. But, IRL, situations like that dissolve petty tensions very quickly and often extremely effectively and permanently. However, I would not mind at least one of them, probably May, returning to a slightly antagonistic relationship with him (mixed with begrudged admiration as well) in the future, once things settle down. Unfortunately, we may not see it, but we certainly can headcanon it. Likewise for Adolin processing all of the trauma that he has been through since the beginning of this series, including just the early-book warfare. He needs a break in which to heal. I am holding out hope that we will see a novella of Adolin and Shallan during the coming time-skip, someday.

[@Marc9.]

Great stream!! Enjoyed every minute of it

[@jaysemitchells497]

Gavilar being the champion would've worked really well if this was just a 5 book series, like it would've tied up the books so well.

[@kurrankeating7004]

I'm so glad you guy are doing this content. The comment section is also a treasure trove on these videos.

[@17thShard]

Hah, it certainly is driving a lot of engagement! (Though the intent is not to be rage-bait. These are all honest opinions.) Thanks for watching! -Eric