The Contest of Champions | Wind and Truth Shardcast

[@ginsariz464]

only at the beginning of the podcast right now but, I think Gavilar never showing up again is perfect. all he wanted was immortality and to be seen as an immortal figure (like his brother the blackthorn) but in the end he failed and no one important ever considers him again except a few personal reminisces. he lost and will never become something important

[@Axel-tk3tk]

Ha! Yes!

[@williamkeaton5091]

I like the idea of Gavinor being completely broken, until Lift gives Gavinor “THE SECRET HANDSHAKE”

[@karloswald407]

and can I add, I hope we get a tiny bit of Zahel/Vasher discussion somewhere, since it is absolutely hilarious to me that Vasher's habit of being captured and tortured continues even on Roshar

[@17thShard]

Ah, good catch, for some reason this didn't consciously grok for me, haha. -Eric

[@7Seraphem7]

And that is MO for dealing with it is "Well, eventually they'll either get bored of this, or just die and I can escape then."

[@marinamaddox6285]

Cosmere's most tortured non-herald, that we know of

[@enbyglitch]

I think Szeth and Aux's moment about showing your true colours is a great warning for Taravangian's future if anyone discovers Kharbranth

[@bruceh9780]

"In Dalinar's final moments, instead of using his body to protect Gavinor from the storm he just, like yeeted Gavinor off the edge, would he have technically still won?" Grace proving once again to be my favourite Shardcaster.

[@17thShard]

She is incredible. -Eric

[@pharaoh9000]

47:40 On the topic of Retribution + Dominion + Devotion as a combined Shard. I think Evgeni already stumbled upon it. "Crusade" would be the perfect name for such a Shard.

[@phantomstryfe]

I've known about y'all for quite a while, but this is the first episode I've actually gone and watched. Legitimately started laughing so hard I choked at 1:29:20. And dang it, now I have another 200+ episodes to watch. Wonderful content, hilarious yet still valuable discussion. I'm definitely gonna have to catch up on this eventually!

[@kaladongstormguy]

I'm also a fan of the Spiritual Kharbranth reveal. I've always found Taravangian to be hypocritical. He talks a lot about the sacrifices one must make as a ruler, but he never even considers making sacrifices that directly hurt him and his loved ones. Beyond the sacrifices of making the hard choices (killing 2 innocent men to ensure the guilty one is punished) and that is certainly a sacrifice he makes. I've always felt that he exaggerated how much pain that causes him. I think Taravangian is so self-obsessed that the pain caused by the guilt of those hard choices is assuaged by the feeling of power he feels making them. Now with the boon and bane of Cultivation he definitely does feel compassion for others, but I feel like his dual nature has always proctected him from the full emotional consequences of that. I'm probably too far on the "Taravangian has always been a hypocrite with a god complex and never cared too much about the sacrifices he was making" side, but his switcheroo on destroying Kharbranth has only cemented that sentiment.

[@fenris5932]

Taravangian has always been an asshole, i dont know why people are hung up on that. Hes the villain. Hes more complex than just being an asshole of course, but hes still full of shit just like his terrible philosophy, and he always has been

[@haldalas]

No I think you’re right, he’s only in it for himself in the end. He has the exact same thing he accused Jasnah of-how did he know what the greater good is? He initially said his goal was to preserve humanity; why? Why is that inherently good, especially in a world with other sapient life who have been there much longer? And yet even that proves to not be what he really wants. If the goal is just to have people survive, like he originally said, then he could have just stopped when he picked up Odium. He has a savior complex and thinks he can be better at ruling than everyone else, and I don’t think he’s truly gotten much smarter with the shard(s) he’s grabbed, only better able to enforce his will. He’s self-important and self-obsessed. His real goal is the one from that line of the Diagram that said “you must become king. Of everything.”

[@wanderingshade8383]

See, I dont think the end of WaT is Empire Strikes Back. I think it's Revenge of the Sith. The bad guys win and are put in such a good position that it seems, on the surface, to be unassailable. And yet at the same time, we are reassured that hope is not lost, that we just have to wait and keep fighting back in whatever way, small or large, until the time is right for the rebellion to rise fully.

[@17thShard]

Very good comparison, I buy it. -Eric

[@parkernoyce4295]

Love this idea

[@17thShard]

I did expect Blackthorn returning at the end to be one of the more controversial things in the book. If that's you, I totally get it! I know there have been several commenters saying they hated it, and I think that's super valid. -Eric

[@Haxerous]

I disliked it as a kind of whiplash effect, but I feel like the potential/upside is huge for the back half and that there's a lot of important stuff to come with his character. Like imagine Blackthorn going ape shit and the shard of Honor realising what Dalinar meant about oaths vs personal growth. Adolin (post reading OB), Vs Blackthorn (going counter to Dalinar's memories he received). There's so much juicy stuff that's possible.

[@Seb_Falkor]

Yea as of right now I'm not a fan but I need to see how Sando utilizes him. It'll probably definitely be cool but it could also be reeallly lame so we'll have to wait and see

[@charlestruppi7793]

While I understand that some people really don’t like the Blackthorn returning (I’m on the fence honestly), like most things at the ending well be able to better judge the decision in book 7-10.

[@janprasek2809]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Blackthorn. To me, any emotional conflict involving him WILL feel cheapened because it wouldn’t be a conflict with a real person, but a caricature of one. Plus, I don't think there’s any character who places Dalinar on a pedestal the way Dalinar, to the end, idolized Gavilar. For instance, (in my opinion) Adolin wouldn’t gain any character development from confronting the Blackthorn-he already acknowledges and accepts that the Blackthorn version of his father was evil. His arc in this book was about that not tainting his relationship with his father now, when he was a changed person. Additionally, stripping the nuance from Dalinar’s character would reduce him to an character closer to Lezian, Monarch, or Moash; an archetype that, in my opinion, Brandon doesn’t handle particularly well.

[@joeybelasco]

I didn't hate it per se, it's a cool setup... But I don't know how well it works in light of Dalinar's ending

[@IamHattman]

Well, at the end of it all, Dalinar did unite them.

[@17thShard]

Hah! True. -Eric

[@pretty5793]

lol! I thought the exact same thing when taravagian takes up honor.

[@BinarySecond]

United princedoms ✅ United realms ✅ United cosmere ✅

[@omniboy-prime]

Now we only would need to know what the " We killed you" meant. Why in plural? Who was Rayse referring to?

[@stefanovitali2925]

​@omniboy-prime Adonalsium was killed by Rayse and 15 others...

[@matt_aquila_]

I'm seeing a parallel between the Blackthorn being given Dalinar's memories and potentially growing - and Honor needing to learn and grow. I wonder if the Blackthorn and Honor will rebel against Taravodium at the same rate

[@Axel-tk3tk]

What if the Blackthorn takes up Honor!

[@AdySeifer]

Grace being part of the GOAT shardcaster conversation... Yeeting 😂

[@scarsymphony514]

I don't think we should count sazed out yet, he doesn't have anything he wants to ruin but imagine an invasion of scadrial where he unleashes ruin on the invaders and preserves his own forces, it would be quite difficult for retribution to handle, especially if sazed can conceptually ruin oaths that the forces of retribution has potentially turning the shard against his own.

[@legendsofabhaile]

what about the fact that you forfeit your title and lands when you kill the Queen's Wit.

[@bigbyallsmay8992]

this comment exploded my mind lol no way Brandon forgot about this

[@TheCozz95]

Fun thought lmao But I do think Taravangian doesn't really hold any titles or lands under Jasnah since she herself doesn't have any anymore.

[@OliveDrabCrusader]

That would be absolutely asinine lmao

[@haldalas]

This is hilarious if it had some kind of impact hahaha But I’m sure it only counts if you yourself are subject to the alethi queen. Like, if the Prime killed the wit for some reason, it wouldn’t mean they had to give up their rulership, since they’re a fully different nation. I assume Taravangian would count the same way?

[@user-ez9ng2rw9c]

I don't think Taravangian is just beholden to all Alethi law outside of very specific circumstances.

[@Mawlivander]

“Gavalavanor” is my new favorite swear word.

[@Ridgwaycer]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Blackthorn's intro chapter (probably middle back half) be him burning down a city on another planet. Dalinar did see a vision of himself (which could have been the Blackthorn) attacking a city that he didn't recognise with a pale moon in the sky. That does seem similar to Elantris, but might be referring to a city on Nalthis, which also has a single moon. Plus, the painting Kaladin saw of Odiums champion was painted on Nalthis too...

[@ienott]

On the topic of Blackthorn totally not backing off in killing Gav, it was him him who spared the kid of some rebellious family though? So perhaps Blackthorn even pre Cultivation and Evi's death is way more honourable than we tend to think

[@Axel-tk3tk]

That's...ambiguous to me. Wouldn't he be the Blackthorn who was betrayed by the guy he spared. And then Evi died after. Does he have that experience or is it the Blackthorn before Evi's death broke him

[@karloswald407]

hell, the sailors on the infinite sea could be people from S-Kharbranth trying to return to P-Roshar and bringing along gems with stormlight in them

[@trolledchaos6531]

Great to see Grace! It’s been too long.

[@17thShard]

Yeah, she just couldn't make the reactions episodes. I think the next several episodes will have Grace. -Eric

[@peaceofcrap]

Agreed! Grace is definitely in my top three favorite cast members and it's entirely possible she's number 1.

[@SageSSBM1]

Alwyas amazing having grace for moments like "if at the last second dalinar had yeeted gavinor off the top off urithuru would he have technically won"

[@peaceofcrap]

@@SageSSBM1 extremely Gracecore hypothetical

[@17thShard]

Grace is a treasure. -Eric

[@Shaz1993xoxo]

I'm toying with the idea that Cultivation knew this outcome was a big possibility and didn't really care. It wouldn't shock me most of her interferences via the nightwatcher were in the interest of helping her get off Roshar rather than the greater interests of Roshar. I almost read her interactions with Taravangian as subtly moving him in the direction he went. Also its not lost on me that it was her idea for Dalinar to go to the spiritual realm On Gavinor, I think I'd have preferred it if he was found by Taravangian almost as soon as they entered. It would've added another layer of reasoning to why he was perceived by others as a strange spren - i was 100% certain it wasn't really him as soon as that became a repeating motif. Although i did find it to be an awful tragedy for Navani to be so close to saving Gav only to find out she didn't 😢

[@edwardguest1404]

Yep I think this was her goal (the power hated it being trapped) every one of the three gifts led to and work with this future

[@BradleyJackson-d8b]

Still watching so they might mention it but I'm like 90% sure the Elhokar they saw when escaping the Spirital Realm was actually Gavinor.

[@stefanovitali2925]

She also gave Lift a way to keep her Radiant powers in a non Stormlight world. That speak volumes...

[@rainhunter5546]

I think the most interesting part of this to me is that now we know that as a reaction to the formation of Retribution, Autonomy attacks Harmony, and that has implications worth considering.

[@ForgetableOne]

I loved how the contest played out, and I'm cautious about the Blackthorn IF he's not stable. If it just turns into Dalinar is back but not really, then I'll be upset, but if its like a shallow recreation of Dalinar's anger and his worst parts then I can live with it. Since I see you guys talk about The Broken One, I'll put my theory. Retribution *will* be reinterpreted into Justice, either through just shifting intent or by adding Cultivation to the mix. "Three of Sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns." Coppermind thinks this refers to Retribution, but I don't agree. Taravangian has always been referred to as divided not broken and we didn't get the death rattle as the chapter title. In chapter 69 of TWoK, Justice, after beating up Elhokar, Dalinar says "We're going to turn Alethkar into a place that men will envy again... because people here are safe and sound and because justice reigns" Justice Reigns, The Broken One reigns. So I feel confident in the "Broken one" being the holder of Justice, but who is that? Well, there's only one option. There's a single character who has constantly referred to himself and been referred to as broken, Kaladin Stormblessed. Shallan, I think, has been called broken once or twice, and so have some of the Heralds but Kaladin has been "broken" since his first POV. So my thought process goes as follows: Broken One = Justice = Broken One = Kaladin. If you guys come to the same conclusion that that's my bad lol, writing this before I actually listen Some other things, the slaves in Kaladin's caravan hope to find justice in the shattered plains, and Justice's perpendicularity will be there, and the cruel irony it would be for the future god of Justice to be standing next to them. Kaladin also ponders the nature of justice in this book. And he argues with Nale about justice in this book. Furthermore, Kaladin's entire story so far has been about the nature between Retribution and Justice. Roshone gave Retribution for the death of his son by condemning Tien, Amaram was unjust when making him a slave, he gets Retribution from Sadeas for ruining the bridgerun, he goes back for Dalinar for Justice, he doesn't get Retribution against Elhokar, instead choosing Justice, etc etc etc. Dalinar was told to act with Honor and Honor will aid him, and in the tower after Sadeas betrayed him Kaladin came to his aid From a meta-perspective, we need someone who can have a 1 on 1 personal beef with Taravangian, and Kaladin only makes sense. The only other people with enough standing to be able to lead the Radiants like Dalinar did are the Heralds and Kaladin leads them now. Kaladin embodies the first ideal like no other, and Taravangian is the antithesis of the first ideal. Kaladin is a surgeon, Taravangian, king of Karbranth known for its medicine used his surgeons to kill, the Silent Gatherers is absolutely something Kaladin holds against him. And to top it off Taravangian killed Dalinar who has basically been Kaladin's dad since book 1, looking at him "in a way that seemed strangely paternal" Furthermore, the power of Honor, which Dalinar has plotted to eventually learn the morality of oaths and turn on Taravangian is a child. An impressionable child wanting, NEEDING someone to understand him. Who better than literally the only therapist on Roshar? Besides you know what that child might need after being with Taravangian for so long; A *second chance* This might also be a pathway to avoid the loss of self that the Shards face if Kaladin and the power remain entirely separate entities in a partnership rather than slowly becoming one being.

[@CephandrianJES]

I love this theory, and I think your evidence is quite strong.

[@diepie5144]

I kept grasping around the idea (I think Dalinar was called broken once). But Kaladin is literally the (powerless) King of the Heralds, it’s just perfect.

[@localaud9814]

This theory just broke my brain in the best way. I love fandom.

[@seanluqpicard]

Cultivation ejecting herself from the planet was hilarious. I can’t believe how badly she managed to screw everything up in the end. Truly one of the most useless gods in the cosmere.

[@OtherTheDave]

Unless she’s playing 4D chess and is just keeping up appearances. I mean, I don’t really think that’s what’s happening, but she’s been _super_ sneaky and manipulative, so, without any PoVs from her afterwards, I wouldn’t be shocked.

[@haldalas]

I sincerely hope her panic was fully legitimate and she had no idea this would happen.

[@Loomx5]

TFW Cultivation gets everything she wants and people seem to think she fucked up. 1. In RoW when Cultivation meets TOdium, she told him to hold the shard"With Honour" 2. The world is now without Radiants and stormlight... *Except* lift, who thanks to Cultivations direct intervention will now be crucial in the back half. 3. Cultivation "looks away" before TOdium "Destroys Karbanth", direcltly allowing him to both save it and also create his (current) greatest hypocrisy and weakness. 4. She is the one who starts Dalinar down his path to find out what happened to Honour. And In her memories we learn that she has *not approved* of almost all of Honours moves against Odium, has been looking for a longer term solution, and wants off world. Which she now gets. n.b. Whatever the fuck has happened with Nightblood as it becomes semi self aware at the end of WaT. Cultivation groomed a hamstrung Odium/ Retribution, freed herself, inflicted a potential huge achilllies heel to Odium, and left her chosen guardian in a uniquely strong position in a situation on Roshar no one could see coming. Compared to how literally every other God we've seen on page, Cultivation is killing it.

[@pretty5793]

She might have planned for multiple eventualities or as you said screwed up horribly. I am going to wait and watch.

[@17thShard]

I do hope Cultivation comes back with a Shardic coalition in the back half. I feel like the series does promise we will get her shenanigans eventually. That said I can totally see why people are like, "Man, this goddess sucks." -Eric

[@parkernoyce4295]

Manifesting positive vibes and crazy cosmere mechanics from this one 0:55

[@MrMendi100]

Gavinor is only reunited with Dalinar at the very end of Oathbringer, then we saw Dalinar with Gavinor early in RoW, then they go on a campaign outside of Urithiru that we don't see very much of so we don't know how much they interacted. Thanks to the timey-wimey nature of the Spiritual realm, by the time Gavinor is swapped out, he's only experienced about two or three days since returning from the campaign. So while it seems that Dalinar never makes time for Gavinor, we've only actually seen him being too busy for him during a short period of time where he genuinely is extremely busy.

[@gravitysloths5127]

I think it'll be really interesting if as Retribution, he still has to switch between emotional and logical. Logical Retribution and Emotional Retribution, roshars version of Harmony and Discord.

[@king_dot]

I wonder if logical retribution will lean more towards honor and emotional retribution will lean more towards odium

[@fanghur]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks that Adim totally looks like Castiel in this stream? I don't know why, but I can't stop seeing it. lol.

[@J-Thicks]

You're not alone, he definitely looks like him

[@Shirohitsuji]

Is the Well of Control actually Odiums Inevestiture ? Ishar seems to have had a sip and could have moved to Shinovar later ? Similar thing to asked about Mishram btw. But the Greatshells have been coming to pupate there for a long time, no ? It would be weird if it disappeared for a time. More importantly it's gold at first right, not the violet-black of voidlight ? and at the end Venli sees it refill in black-blue ?

[@edwardguest1404]

Gold is odiums colour and the blue-black is the war light colour so is definitely his!

[@lily-_-]

At the end Venli listens to it when it changes and she identified the Rhythm of War from its tone, which pretty much confirmed to me it was Odium's and then Retribution's perpendicularity

[@omniboy-prime]

Ishar did what the lord ruler did in mistborn right? He kinda was a god 😂

[@Shirohitsuji]

Odiums colour may be Gold but his Investiture is Voidlight, violet black, that's the point/ question.

[@jakeywakey78]

2:10:26As far as the discussion about space age cosmere towards the end of the episode. Using a combination of all the surges and fabrial science, Navani and Jasnah are hundreds of years old and lead a team of Knights Radient and fabrial scientist to turn Uritheru into a Generation Ship powered by the sibling which launchs off of Roshar and escapes Tara-butions domain. Uritheru is alteady vaguely Rocket ship shaped

[@Kaladinstormblessedbridge49888]

When blackthorn gets his hands on Oathbringer. Either a hard turn or just digging his heels into the path he is already on

[@zendarva]

14:04 The blackthorne Sprin is gonna get put into the empty Gavinor husk to make it physical.

[@zendarva]

And one other thought... Discord causes Retribution... But retribution doesn't cause Discord... Discord's already there.

[@scaredoclock3881]

baby hitler theory lol

[@eragonroran7]

Can I just say I'm very excited to see Night become an important idea on Roshar again. We got so much about Wind and Stone in the front half of the books, but Night was also gifted to Roshar and I think it will be ever so more important now that the long night has arrived on Roshar.

[@livineshkumar335]

I think Dalinar really loved Gavinor. Most of their time together was either in time skip or during active war, and Dalinar still found time to play with Gavinor in the middle of meetings. It is all he had time for and he promised himself that he would play with him more once the war is over. There was more tell instead of show because of page and time constraints.

[@stefanovitali2925]

About a possibile stable 3-shard: Retribution+Mercy into Justice?

[@CudiBuddy4Life]

Brandon accidentally writing the most controversial fantasy novel of all time Also…Dalinar was claimed by Evi. If the shadow of the Blackthorn exists, so does the light that is Evi

[@Fieryxjoe]

I still have hope in Blackthorne having a full character arc and becoming Unity when all is said and done but who knows. At least he got invested after the Retribution thing so he isn't pure Odium. Reminds me a lot of a plotline from Wandavision tbh.

[@Sheija]

The Broken One to me is Syl, and is unfulfilled…the closest fit I see is Honor, since now that Shard is part of Retribution but a good chunk of its power is sealed off by the Oathpact. The power is literally BROKEN. So this either means it applies to Retribution now, or that the part of Honor that was sealed off is now reigning (post Stormlight 10). So maybe they retake Roshar without reforging the Shard, and Retribution is still out there in the Cosmere? Then Syl could be ‘reigning’ (raining 😉) as Stormother, the Remnant of Stormfather in the same way he was of Tanavast - making her the Broken One.

[@MrMendi100]

On the topic of autonomy vs Autonomy: I'm looking forward to the most important cosmere character "The" to be introduced

[@saucydawcy0811]

Notum is the gangster of spren. He literally is living his best life. Haha

[@chokog2446]

I so wish you guys would do this type of thoughtful and passionate read through the Malazan series!!! I would adore listening to you breaking everything down!!!😊

[@_argent]

We have our hands pretty full with the Cosmere, I'm afraid 😅

[@joshwhite8862]

@@_argent Forgo the analysis and read it for enjoyment (f the time exists and you haven't already); it's a ripper :)

[@_argent]

@@joshwhite8862 I've read all 10 mainline books, plus the two Kharkanas ones. I find that 80% of each book you are just getting kicked in the teeth with incomprehensible worldbuilding *and* difficult language, only for *some* of it to make sense at the end. But then all the stuff you just learned barely matters in the next book. The series has some really high highs, but boy does it feel like you are paying a price to get to them.

[@17thShard]

God I would love to have the time to read non-Brandon books, but that jerk keeps writing them. -Eric

[@joshwhite8862]

@@_argent Sounds like Malazan haha. I've read it through a few times and the world comes together beautifullly, but once you know what you're looking for. My reading these days i essentially do a 3 year cycle of Brandon, WoT, Malazan and then something new (went with the Robin Hobb 5 series and completing my Dune knowledge past book 4 this year) but it gets harder and harder to fit in. Saving grace was starting 25+ years ago when i had more time haha (God bless a mother who gets you into epic fantasy at 7). I also don't do regular 3hour+ analysis of what i read, so that helps a fair bit. Appreciate your guys insights and the depths you go to; i certainly found your reaction to WaT videos helpful in finding some language to go around why the pieces (plot and tone) didn't all fit well together for me on this one.

[@ConnorDeanGameDev]

I can't help but reflect on the idea that Dalinar created the blackthorn spren. He made a blackthorn that wasn't lost in war and regret but was willing to save others. It's not the Blackthorn as he was, but an ideal version that Dalinar wished he could be.

[@Kk-fj5tn]

Evgeni, love your background!!!

[@17thShard]

These are the new Bulgarian cover arts by Yasen Stoilov, they are absolutely incredible. This is the Words of Radiance one, which you can find here: coppermind.net/wiki/Coppermind:Artists/Yasen_Stoilov -Eric

[@Kk-fj5tn]

@ Thank you Eric. Will definitely check them out!

[@pretty5793]

Beautiful! Thank you for the link Eric.

[@ChocolatierRob]

In the previous book wasn't Kaladin using voidlight to power spanreeds linked to Dalinar's campain whose reeds obviously were still stormlight. So lifelight on one end and warlight on the other should work fine. They work by splitting a spren in two so making new ones would be difficult with the sudden lack of spren, did current spanreed spren disappear with the new oathpact?

[@BinarySecond]

I believe the void light fabrials use enlightened spren to function. So if they can get some enlightened spren trapped

[@17thShard]

I don't think Kaladin used Voidlight fabrials in RoW, but it has been a while for me. I do think if both ends had an Enlightened spren one could construct a new spanreed, though. -Eric

[@djbrouwer7712]

On Kel's view of Odium, he is a king, but also a god. You could call him a lord ruler.

[@ChocolatierRob]

I think Spiritual Kharbranth will slowly be corrupted somehow by being in the spiritual realm and Tartribution will be watching in horror as he realises that what he has done is going wrong beyond his power to fix.

[@haldalas]

I hope so, that sounds awesome. I mean not for them but yeah

[@2thechase]

I don't know why everyone is weirded out by the Gavinor meat puppet... Taravangian obviously just used the meat spores to create him. Hahaha

[@scottstout6836]

If the dead eyes are healing, will Stormfather come back?

[@lucascova7875]

No because he wasnt turned into a deadeye, he was just vaporised by odium. Deadeyes are created by breaking bonds with spren.

[@Obzerver]

@@lucascova7875 In theory he should have become a deadeye as Dalinar broke his bond. We've also seen him as a shardblade so we know he could become one. However, you could argue that since he is special this rule didn't apply to him. Special in terms of being an avatar of Tanavast; the the strength of his existence through the collective perception of the people of Roshar; and the way he was originally formed unique from the other radiant spren (cultivation's comment about the rest being so human like). A simpler argument is that we saw with Vienta that it takes a few moments before a spren drops into the physical realm as a shardblade after the bond is broken. Its possible the time between breaking the oath and the stormfather being annihilated happened too fast for him to become a deadeye.

[@yremogtnomnad]

"they're not just inside another person, they're inside each other" ... 😂😂😂

[@mikeyknight292]

Good to see Evgeni and Eric in the same episode about this topic

[@thexerun8812]

1:28:39 with the Thrill for Grace. (Unless I’m very mistaken) As per Hero of Ages ascending to a shard gives the shard the memories of the Vessel which can then be used by the next Vessel. So if Dalinar knew where the Thrill is, by ascending to Honor he passed that information to the shard and now Taravangian should know as well

[@BinarySecond]

Shards are also omnipresent. Retribution would only need to look for The Thrill and they would find it.

[@haldalas]

@@BinarySeconddoes that work if it’s in aluminum though, because there are definitely things that can be hidden from them. Hoid, for example, at least sometimes, since Harmony can’t sense or find him, and the metal stuff on Scadrial. Hmm. Maybe Ruin and preservation are just bad at finding things, come to think of it.

[@BinarySecond]

@haldalas I think that's probably true for all god's so there is a caveat to my initial statmenet

[@bstjules]

Retributions intent of punishing Oathbreakers is a complete terror for Kelsier!

[@livineshkumar335]

I think that the Blackthorn that Odium now has is a Spren. We know that Human perception is what creates Spren and all of Roshar was aware of who Blackthorn was and was really afraid of him. So Taravangian just used all of their perceptions and a model of the young Blackthorn to create a Blackthorn Spren.

[@tallbeing]

On the Retribution/Blackthorn relationship going forward: Taravangian spends almost the entirety of this book trying to get Dalinar to say that his philosophy is the right one, and he's noticeably angry at being forced to admit that Dalinar was right when we see him in the Spiritual Realm Kharbranth, so my best guess is that he's going to groom the Blackthorn to become a version of Dalinar that accepted Taravangian's philosophy instead of the Radiant one, just as a way to soothe his own ego over protecting Kharbranth and being unable to force the real Dalinar to admit to anything.

[@williamkeaton5091]

My new head cannon is that the honor entity is actually a slowly developing peace of what could one day be a reestablished Adolnasium

[@alex626ification]

I am curious if we will ever get to meet the spren that is Oathbringer.

[@lonewolf9744]

I imagine the people of Roshar waiting for Warlight in the same way that people wait for water in Mad Max Fury Road

[@iAmEnenra]

In regards to the idea of the other Shards’ intervention being through sending others to Roshar: iirc, I believe Me’laan said Harmony was sending her off world for something. So there could be merit to that point already.

[@sandrar4981]

referring to the death rattle with the 3 of 16... this totally popped up in my mind, when Yanagawn spoke to Adolin about the difference between reign and rule. Do we think this means something? 🤔

[@sandrar4981]

oh yeah, Ian just raised that point 😅

[@passdoutcouchpotatos]

I think we will see Gavinor in Spiritual Karbranth. He called the Spiritual realm his "Home realm" which is interesting

[@fabianf7408]

Does anyone have an idea of which book Eric was talking about here? 1:33:44

[@17thShard]

Dresden Files! -Eric

[@2thechase]

See I was kind of with Argent and Jofwu, but thought that Gavilar cognitive shadow was going to try to posses Gavinor like a fused. He wanted to live forever more than anything and when Gavinor said someone like his father was talking to him in the Spiritual Realm, I was freaking out.

[@jacobyoung9981]

FULL SPOILERS FOR W&T: One thought I’ve had in relation to Gavinor that I haven’t seen discussed much (I am commenting this halfway through the video so I will feel dumb if it’s discussed later) is if Gavinor will have some legitimate claim to the Alethi throne, at least for whatever part of Alethkar still exists outside Retribution’s control. If I remember correctly, Jasnah was only made queen until Gavinor could come of age as Elhokar’s heir, which he clearly is at this point. I think this could mean that Gavinor could attempt to seize the crown from Jasnah, especially considering she has had a crisis of faith and is probably more vulnerable than we’ve ever seen her. I think this could be made even more interesting by the fact that they are both trapped in Urithiru together. Will we return to book 6 to find a civil war going on within the tower, or maybe a more subtle political struggle for power? It’s also possible that Gavinor tries to play nice with Jasnah and his family, while secretly plotting to take the throne. This may not be the route Brandon’s going, but I think it’s a t least worth considering the fact that Gavinor might be making a play for the throne or even already king when we return to Roshar (maybe supported by the fact that Szeth’s wife’s book seems to imply that Jasnah is more fully engaged in her role as a radiant). None of this could come to pass, but I at least wanted to discuss it as a cool possibility.

[@uvadoc06]

I've seen speculation that Nohadon in that last vision is an avatar for another shard (Reason?) and that's who claimed Dalinar. Sure, maybe he just went to the God Beyond, but Brandon loves fakeout deaths and I believe Dalinar is his oldest character...

[@Disti23]

Can we get more of El? He seems like a cool guy who casually summons a shard weapon. There’s gotta be a good reason why the other fused fear him.

[@Axel-tk3tk]

Was the shards themselves not liking eachother and wanting to fight the reason Dalinar could not do what Vin did with Preservation and kill Odium while killing himself. Or was what Viin did only possible because of the opposite intents of Ruin and Preservation. Would new vessels take up the powers and want to fight again? Could Odium and Honor had fought and maybe saved Urithiiru with that shield at the end.

[@marinamaddox6285]

My mind also went to Adonalsium being "the broken one." Glad I'm not the only one.

[@boppy9617]

What if the Retribution gets the thrill and somehow fuses it with the Blackthorn and his calling card is the fighting growing more and more frenzied as he approaches the battlefield. Fucking epic

[@danielmorgan6793]

"The Blackthorn isn't going to enjoy space combat" Have you seen what happens when Kharn the Betrayer boards your ship? 😅

[@OtherTheDave]

No. Is that a warhammer thing?

[@fenris5932]

@@OtherTheDave Imagine the Darth Vader scene from Rogue One but with a chainsaw axe and across an entire ship

[@JaxKordela]

why isn't Azimir covered by the everstorm after Dalinar breaks all of honors oaths? Wouldn't him doing that also break the contest of champions and negate their agreement of the coalition keeping any land? I thought maybe the contest doesnot count as one of the oath being broken and he just surrenders the contest?

[@17thShard]

Taravangian's ascension POV talks about this. He is allowing it, basically to appease Honor, and the Shard of Honor likes Taravangian to hold to the oath. Taravangian absolutely does not have to do this. -Eric

[@JaxKordela]

@17thShard ok, I see. So he can but won't to appease Honor's Intent, I guess. Forgot about that line

[@hanzerik594]

Isn't the time sync mostly there to make sure Hoid has enough time to run around, scoop up a dawnshard, play taxi driver to the Larians etc?

[@adambyrd5379]

31:19 I took this to mean Cultivations mark on him kept him away from retribution. Further proof her plan is not done.

[@yvjlvyu]

re whether time dilation extends to the whole system Kaladin says to Kalak in the postlude that Ishar has told him that "years pass there [Roshar], months pass here" although its not 100% clear where exactly they are in that scene whether Braize, Ashyn or somewhere else

[@haldalas]

Technically the SR, right? With their souls on Braize but their…minds? In the spiritual? Kind of like Dalinar was going to try to do when first accessing it.

[@bartoszradecki1903]

33:19 no one guessing valor claimed Dalinar?

[@williamkeaton5091]

2:35:55 why are y’all saying that? Taln is not from Roshar? Was it stated in wind and truth that he was from a later generation than the other Heralds

[@17thShard]

To be clear, the clue was that the character was NOT from Roshar, and that was what led to the casters complaining. I did check the timestamp and don't quite see precisely what you're referring to, so I might be confused as to what you're trying to communicate. -Eric

[@williamkeaton5091]

Sorry was using speech to text and there was a typo. I don’t remember in the Wind and Truth us learning Taln is from Roshar. I thought it was established he also came over with the other Heralds he was just not a king or of influence

[@17thShard]

Ohhh, gotcha. I believe the Taln Oathpact flashback was several decades later, and he wasn't one of the first who came from Ashyn. -Eric

[@_argent]

Taln calls Ashyn "my grandmother’s world" which presumes that it wasn't his

[@williamkeaton5091]

@ thanks. Missed that entirely

[@nandhan92]

8:00 Also isn't Jasnah just a stand-in queen for Alethkar till Gavinor comes of age? Well he is of age and brainwashed by Taravangian..

[@myrddin173]

No, if that were the case she would just be a regent, which is not something they wanted to do. So they made Jasnah just full queen, not contingent on Gavinor's age.

[@tct8284]

Love the book. I couldn’t stand Odium’s arguments with Jasnah and even some with Dalinar. Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin’s relationship is so fun especially in the little moments. The Azir emperor was great too and I never enjoyed his plot before. Ending was fantastic in the ending I thought Kaladin would end up with 3 shards. What would Odium have done if Gavinor didn’t fall into the spiritual realm? Overall the book meet my very high expectation!

[@claytoncoleman9473]

Is flesh puppet Gavinor the first Rosharan kandra?

[@IThrewDucks]

I'm ~excited for Blackthorn. The clone/digital copy stories are some of my favorites in sci-fi. I can already see the unhinged theories about what differentiates Dalinar from the Blackthorn realmatically. That said, it being a Dalinar clone feels weird. Like you said, Brando wanted to have his cake and eat it too. We can only hope that Brando channels everything he's learned from the Original into back five and pulls it off in a way we enjoy.

[@BinarySecond]

Moneo bring me another Blackthorn

[@SamBucek]

I was hoping that taravangian was going to put the blackthorn into Gavinor’s body and use that as the vessel to hold Dalinar’s soul. Kinda like a Kingdom Hearts Xehanort-Terra situation.

[@micahlarimer155]

So here is the million dollar question. Would the cosmere be better off if Dalinar destroyed Taravangien with Honor, destroying Roshar in the process (and Hoid's body on Roshar) allowing him to take up the Dawnshard Exist???? Seems like Dalinar-Honor with a dawnshard could be exciting to the greater cosmere. Perhaps Cultivation would have snagged it instead.

[@jeffreysprague6468]

The line about Dalinars soul being claimed by another, read as important to me. I think that the Nohadon he talked to could be a shard in hiding and theyre the ones who "claimed" him. It seems too suspicious to me, we know his cognitive shadow would be persistent after just ascending and we dont get any words or pov from his spirit going into the beyond.

[@MarcieIsForager]

I thought it might be Reason Dalinar alwaya kinda read like an enlightened monarch archetype. And Nohadon in terms of intent always kinda read as Dalinars voice of reason

[@jeffreysprague6468]

@MarcieIsForager it does make sense to me that reason is playing a more active role than we're led to believe. Very interested to see where that goes

[@BinarySecond]

I think the thing with the unmade is they are loose investiture and will change over time. I think Sja Anat was specifically worried about getting inamde again? Ah you got to that just as i was typing this. So the blackthorn could evolve but could get "reset" to be compliant. The downside is the experience is lost i expect.

[@Capitan0012]

I think Honor and Odium align in looking for revenge, retribution for broken oaths that brings hate. And what does Taravangian wants? To be the only god. What if… the three of them were to punish, let’s say, those gods that for instance established together? Like Ruin and preservation did or Dominion and Devotion likewise. What if the other shards didn’t break that very oath to not interact with each other but to not interact directly with humans, like Invention or Devotion could presumably be doing. I beleage that Taravangian and Retribution seek the very same end: either join me (Unite them vibes) or die.

[@prepwithgabi]

It’s refreshing how this episode is more positive than the previous one. 😮‍💨

[@17thShard]

Reactions episodes are where we can get more critical, because it's pure opinion. Analysis and speculation inherently has less of that. -Eric

[@calebharmon7404]

How did Odium get Oathbringer? He mentions that some agent of his took it, but who? What’s that person going to do now that Urithiru is sealed?

[@adambyrd5379]

1:56:32 Dalinar tore up the contract, freed Odium from all oaths and bounds. Odium can leave the system. So why does Odium have to avoid lands he lost? That deal was broken honor should not be able to hold him to honoring that.

[@17thShard]

It's not that Taravangian has to. It's that he feels Honor *likes* it when Taravangian holds to the promises he made. He is directly trying to appease that new Shard he gained. -Eric

[@curtiswfranks]

I guarantee that Taravangian saving Kharbranth will matter later. Maybe not directly, but his hypocrisy - and his empathy - will matter, or his loss of standing with the other Shards will, or the leverage on him will. Sanderson will not have Taravangian destroy it later unless it is a private moment which demonstrates to the reader how much he has changed; it will not be a show of force. I think that his saving it actually indicates that Cultivation's plan might still be on track, unbeknownst even to her.

[@KevinHorecka]

When y'all first said "the broken one reigns" I immediately thought of how odium both wanted to break Jasnah and wanted her to rule. Edit: although wasn't there something at the top of the chapters about how Jasnah was some unknown person writing something?

[@deanexikanas1988]

I actually wonder if the 4th moon is somehow linked to the Broken One that reigns.

[@Raichulula]

Eric should know that they wouldn't need a super-powered Lashing to send the Thrill off Roshar, only enough to get it out of escape velocity and then inertia deals with the rest.

[@17thShard]

I mean if you have infinite Investiture, accelerate that box! We can get near light speed at least! -Eric

[@boolemay2058]

Do we have any WoBs concerning Harmony's or Retribution's numbers? Odium's 9, and Honor was 10. Why is midnight important for retribution? Is his number 10?

[@17thShard]

None to my knowledge yet. -Eric

[@juliegoggans8303]

I'm only about 56 minutes in, so I don't know if it comes up. The conversation at this point is did the power of odium change a bit like the power of honor. Something I thought was foreshadowed but wasn't picked up like I thought. There is literally a dawn shard on Roshar called Change and is the power to change a god. Also can we talk about the terrible idea of Retribution getting the Dawn Shard with the intent: Exist? Also why can Retribution hurt Hoid but Odium couldn't?

[@diegocarmona6180]

I don't quite get the shard's wells. Can someone explain where does that power comes from? (I mean, I know it's from the shard byt why?) Why was it empty at the end? Is it the same as the well from mistborn? Does it mean there's a harmony well somehwere?

[@17thShard]

Sure. A lot of the exact mechanics are described in WoBs. It's described as "spiritual condensation" where the power naturally collects. These are called perpendicularities, and can be used to pierce all three realms. Cultivation's Perpendicularity vanished because Cultivation abandoned the planet, so presumably that Investiture left with her. This is the same sort of thing as the Well of Ascension, indeed! The Well of Control (Odium's Perpendicularity) definitely had a lot of strong Well of Ascension vibes, especially with Ba-Ado-Mishram and Ishar utilizing that power to do things. Harmony does have a perpendicularity. In Lost Metal, it was said that it is in the southern continent. Let me know if you have any other questions! -Eric

[@bullbythehorns808]

Odiums plan for battle had to be different though. No way he could have predicted he would have access to Gav in the spiritual realm

[@epee11c]

I got the impression that the geography just changed bacause of the constant rain.

[@Stormblessed__]

Apples are crunchy and juicy.

[@Kabissz]

The Blackthorn and the Thrill The Blackthorn and the Thrill One is laconic the other quite shrill To prove their master's worth They'll do Retribution's work They're oath sworn They're Blackthorn and the Thrill Thrill Thrill Thrill Thrill (pararararam) - a heartfelt kudo to anyone guessing the melody 😊-

[@Tower_Of_Chaos]

You talked about intelligent Unmade being created by unmaking conscious entities but didn't mention the Sibling being "unmade" by Raboniel in RoW!

[@7Seraphem7]

So the thing about how much Dalinar loving Gavinor is much more "tell" then "show"? I think that was the point. That as much as Dalinar told Gavinor he loves him, as much as he does love the boy and tells himself he does.... he never really showed it to Gavinor in ways that would make Gav believe it, and his actions did kind of tell another story. Yes, Dalinar had kind of important things to do on which the entire fate of the planet would be decided, but to Gav.... it's just Grandpa (Grand Unc... whatever) ignoring him and acting like spending time with him is a burden. Which 1. Was part of the reason Gav was even sneaking around to spy on Dalinar and got sucked into the Spiritual Realm in the first place, and 2. just made Odium's job of getting him to be his champion all the easier and more tragic.