Wingspan vs Wyrmspan: Key Similarities and Differences

Jamey discusses a few core similarities and a number of key differences between Wyrmspan and the game that inspired it, Wingspan. You can read these here: stonemaiergames.com/games/wyr...
stonemaiergames.com/games/wyr...
Become a champion of this channel: stonemaier-games.myshopify.co...

[@rudykraft5526]

Telling us that we can’t play birds in wyrmspan or dragons in Wingspan. Kind of sounds like a challenge.

[@sarahschreffler5407]

I think it will need way more than just putting the cards into the game.

[@rudykraft5526]

@@sarahschreffler5407 That's why it will be a challenge.

[@LetsKeepThePeace]

Yepp. Challenge accepted!

[@bingomat1980]

That'll be wingwyrm span. No3 😂

[@howlsthunder]

I love the concept of the dragon guide book included in the game for players who want to know more about their dragons. It reminds me of how back in the day of 8 and 16-bit video games the “instruction” manual for the game was usually also a lore and enemy guidebook. I loved reading those and fleshing out the story behind the otherwise simple pixelated enemies that only existed to hinder progress through the game. :D

[@shantelalbert7151]

Looks so fun, can't wait to pick this up. Thanks for sharing Jamey 💕

[@echoecho3888]

Very well done video- answered all my questions I had! Looking forward to getting it.

[@jameystegmaier]

I'm glad it was helpful!

[@jillianm1781]

Oh my goodness I am SO excited for this! Such a clever idea! I cannot wait for this to come out.

[@stropes.]

There are some interesting changes that sound very exciting. Getting rid of Bonus cards and having those end of game goals on the actual cards is a nice way to streamline and differentiate the games. The book sounds like a fun element as well! Excited to pick this up!

[@gabrielkessler2690]

Great overview. When I first saw the announcement and watched the initial 2-3 min video my thought was 'I'll have to play that before buying to make sure it's not just re-themed'. After watching this video you really highlight those differences well and this will definitely find a spot on my shelf!

[@jameystegmaier]

I'm glad it was helpful! :)

[@Jeff321]

I don’t have Wingspan but have played it. Definitely a lot more interested in this theme so I might have to pick this up.

[@steviepickles9174]

I’m definitely gonna play some wyrms in my Wingspan games going forward. I DO WHAT I WANT

[@jameystegmaier]

I hope you find a way to make that work! :)

[@justincantczak]

Wyrmspan looks great, I can't wait to try it! I have Wingspan already and I like the mechanics, but the dragon theme definitely appeals to me more.

[@crumpetsbuttered]

"Taking eags from wingspan and hatching them into birds" sound like an idea for a Wingspan Expansion.

[@JoeRichardsWells]

Thematically, this is how I make sense of "egg costs" in Wingspan (and I probably will in Wrymspan). Naturally speaking, eggs would come and go.. so to me, having to pay an egg cost is that egg hatching. You don't see the bird in your habitat, but you can imagine they flying off somewhere. It would be nice, if the egg COST eggs depicted had a little crack down them as a nod to thematic reference.

[@milessemison4054]

I remarked to a friend, a few months ago, that a dragon expansion to Wingspan would be very cool. And now there's a standalone release with additional mechanics - sign me up! Can't wait!

[@dragonshadow1902]

Looking forward to Wyrmspan. I just couldn't get behind the fantasy theme of wingspan.

[@edmundengland]

Fantasy?

[@TylerLipshutz]

@@edmundengland birds aren't real - duh!

[@marshallchaney8845]

@@edmundengland Look up "birds aren't real." :)

[@hillstreesandstreams]

Brilliant!

[@sansrival933]

The next expedition..this will be just an okay game 😅

[@whatboardgame]

Thanks for doing this. Excited to try Wrymspan soon. The differences seem really smart and sound like they will add a lot of fun to the experience.

[@jameystegmaier]

Thanks! :)

[@Gigantor18]

Game looks awesome Jamey, a lot of changes and additions to be excited about

[@robyn7119]

This game looks awesome! I recently purchased Wingspan on Steam as the digital version made more sense for me for various reasons (even though I'd LOVE a physical copy, it's beautiful), the animations, sounds and music really add to the game in my opinion. I'm really hoping a digital version of Wyrmspan will be released eventually too. It would be an instant buy!

[@jameystegmaier]

I'm hoping that Monster Couch makes a digital version of Wyrmspan--we're happy to work with them again! :)

[@PeteTheWargamer]

I'm really looking forward to this. While I've played alot of Stonemaier Games in the past I've only recently gotten around to playing Wingspan but I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Wyrmspan is looking great so far!

[@Keithustus]

*a lot of Stonemaier Games in…

[@krzysztofwegrzyn4343]

The theme of wingspan was not really for me so I’m really happy this is going to be a thing!! Can’t wait!

[@Arkardu]

I am in the same boat. No matter how good people say Wingspan is, I just never could be bothered to get a game about birds.

[@susanmichele957]

Wow! Wingspan is one of my all-time favorites. Wyrmspan looks like a completely different, yet familiar, new game. Can't wait!

[@jameystegmaier]

Thanks Susan! Familiar-but-different is exactly what we were aiming for. :)

[@jeremybergerson9453]

I feel like they would make a promo pack for wingspan that would add a couple dragons. Just a small crossover pack would be cool.

[@jameystegmaier]

Wingspan is a game about birds; there are no dragons in Wingspan. Dragons are for Wyrmspan.

[@scorpian223]

@@jameystegmaier Aren't dragons just dinosaur birds, though? :)

[@jameystegmaier]

@@scorpian223 Indeed, in the world of Wyrmspan, dragons are as common as birds!

[@Kami-mk7tu]

Aren't birds already dinosaur birds ​@@scorpian223

[@jamessherman7797]

Hopefully Wyrmspan will available on Board Game Arena, in the future!

[@nathanaelcoffman2859]

This is cool! First I’ve heard of it. I’ve been thinking for a long time that you guys should do a wingspan spinoff but with Fish!

[@tyrroo]

Especially flying fish!

[@the_verTigO]

I heard rumors about "Finspan"

[@gamby85]

Can’t wait to get this to the table !

[@eastpaladin7098]

4:56 - Question. I do see the baby dragon cards here, but when they are hatched and later developed, are there additional cards to show their young or grown-up version? Thanks.

[@jameystegmaier]

We considered that, but it was going to be too clunky to switch them out. The cards remain as they are, just with tokens cached on them (or cards tucked under them).

[@TorIverWilhelmsen]

@@jameystegmaier Some Dominion expansions/sets use "upgrading" cards (often 2-3 "levels") which you substitute in when necessary. And at least one Ascension set use "transformed" cards, also kept aside and used when needed. I guess it would depend on the number of hatchlings and upgrade steps for how inconvenient they would have ended up being.

[@Letsplayboardgames]

We really like the new caves and hatching mechanism

[@jameystegmaier]

Thanks! Me tto. :)

[@matejlieskovsky9625]

I feel like Wyrmspan might not end up quite as popular as Wingspan, which is a great game to play with family (gave my sister a copy for chrismas this year) or with friends while sitting aroung a big pot of tea and chatting. But what do I know? I really like you including an encyclopedia. Are there any plans for releasing one for Wingspan? Maybe future editions could also have less cluttered cards (along with the bird name changes I heard you were implementing?)

[@jameystegmaier]

For Wingspan, we offer vision-friendly cards without the bird facts (no bird facts book, but you can keep the original cards to reference for the facts).

[@stephenfarrell8587]

Thanks for the overview. All the best for 2024. Cheers.

[@ncc1701jv]

Are there going to be sleeves for the cave cards? They look like they might also fit tapestry arts and architecture cards

[@jameystegmaier]

The cave cards are 57x57mm, and there are a few card sleeves in that size. The dragon cards are 57x87mm.

[@Erginartesia]

Oh this is my game of the year! I play Wingspan EVERY day with my family, using the app. And then, when we have a chance to get together we play the cardboard game. This looks WONDERFUL!

[@Keithustus]

Have they fixed that if any player forgets to take a move for 24 hours, the game just ends completely?

[@TheJeanean]

Ok. This is helpful. I was under the impression that it was just a re-theming.

[@jameystegmaier]

Happy to help!

[@akareject]

I am curious how much player interaction there will be. Wingspan initially didn't have much player interaction, with most of the conflict between other players coming from the bird feeder, the bird tray, or the end of round scoring. However, the expansions did add more player interaction with bird abilities such as "when an opponent takes a specific action" or "steal a specific resource from an opponent." How much interaction between players will there be and is player interaction going to be an integral part of Wyrmspan?

[@jameystegmaier]

In terms of player interaction, we pursued a similar vibe to Wingspan in that there are reasons to pay attention to other players, but you’re never attacking or intentionally hurting other players. Imagine a world where dragons of all shapes and sizes are just as common as birds-hopefully our first thought wouldn’t be to use them as vehicles of war. There are still areas of tension in Wyrmspan, though. The special guild benefits are limited, and they scale by player count (one side of the guild tile is for 2-3 player; the other for 4-5 players). The end-of-round goals are always relative to other players (though ties are friendly). There’s also the tension of claiming available cave and dragon cards before an opponent. And Wyrmspan includes my favorite type of interaction-positive player interaction-via a number of dragon and cave cards that benefit all players.

[@akareject]

@@jameystegmaier Thank you for the quick and detailed response. I am glad to hear Wyrmspan will have the same vibe as Wingspan. Also, I am especially excited to hear it has positive interaction which is one of my favorite game mechanisms as well!

[@shaifalay]

Looks really good! Will the metal coins be available for purchase together with the game on day one (Stonemaier champion)?

[@jameystegmaier]

Indeed, the upgrade pack (metal coins plus wooden resources) and the rubber playmats will be available to everyone at the same time on January 31. You can see photos of them here: stonemaiergames.com/games/wyrmspan/design-diary/

[@shaifalay]

Cool, thanks!

[@biomeboardgame]

I love Wingspan, it is one of my favorite games of all time. Thanks for sharing this, cant wait to try Wyrmspan!

[@jameystegmaier]

Thank you! :)

[@xZuunes]

Looks so awesome, Wingspan is an amazing game and I am really looking forward Wyrmspan. A question though, Wyrmspan feels a bit heavier and if I'm right, how much heavier / complex would you say it is?

[@jameystegmaier]

Wyrmspan is a little heavier and a little more complex than Wingspan due to the extra layer of choices added by caves/excavate, the dragon guild, hatchlings, and more.

[@demo4444]

Brilliant, well done guys, picking this up. Will there be premium components?

[@jameystegmaier]

We've tried to make the game feel deluxe out of the box via the foil tokens, speckled eggs, and over 250 uniquely illustrated cards. You can also buy an upgrade pack (metal coins and wooden resources) and/or rubber playmats from us when the game launches on January 31 (shipping to follow in February). See photos of the deluxe add-ons in today's design diary post: stonemaiergames.com/games/wyrmspan/design-diary/

[@demo4444]

@@jameystegmaier awesome, thanks for the info Jamey 👍🏻

[@KBrandes]

I love wingspan.. I love dragons.. Easy choice! and I love the thematic devices that have been incorporated.

[@erinwatson1863]

Looking so forward to this! Looks like some great changes/differences from Wingspan. Are the eggs the same size as in Wingspan? Wondering if I should grab those new golden eggs to use for Wyrmspan. :)

[@jameystegmaier]

Thanks Erin! The eggs are the exact same size and composition as Wingspan, so you could definitely add the golden eggs to your Wyrmspan order and have them fit well. :) The colors of the eggs and the speckle painting are different than Wingspan, though.

[@tbahr123]

Hey Jamey is the increasing cost of repeating the same action in any way a response to how the last round of wingspan often ends up being a lot of “lay eggs” actions over and over?

[@jameystegmaier]

A little bit, but it's more of a response to playtesting Wyrmspan and finding that players were creating a really powerful row and using it repeatedly (especially since the benefits built into the rows in Wyrmspan--even without dragon "if activated" abilities--are quite strong when added up together).

[@colenellis5636]

Not sure I understand the difference of the optional ability between wingspan and Wyrmspan. Is it the same idea, but just more clear wording?

[@tomasxfranco]

yes, IF rather than WHEN to make it clear that its optional.

[@stacyp2186]

When Wingspan came out it was hard to get. I had to wait months for my preorder because of lack of copies. Are you planning on making more copies this time up front?

[@jameystegmaier]

The first run of Wingspan was 10,000 copies, which is a lot for a game, especially one about birds (not traditionally a bestselling theme among hobby gamers). It sold far faster than we thought, and we raced to catch up, investing in 300,000 total copies during the release year. It sounds like you preordered from a retailer, not from Stonemaier Games, because we only sell products we actually have in stock. I appreciate you supporting your preferred retailer, but please know that retailers do accept orders for games they have not yet secured from distributors--please make sure your retailer only accepts your money for a game if they already know for sure they will have it for you in a timely manner (which is what the GTS Fortress program and our direct-retailer program are set up to do). The first run of Wyrmspan, as noted in the following article, is 100,000 English units: stonemaiergames.com/wyrmspan-lessons-learned-from-our-biggest-announcement-ever/ This is our biggest first-run investment in a game before asking for anyone to pay a cent. :) We look forward to selling the game on January 31, followed by shipping in February.

[@stacyp2186]

@@jameystegmaier I did do retailer. I really want this game, so I’ll definitely buy from you this time. Save me a copy 😁

[@jameystegmaier]

@@stacyp2186 We have a copy for you! :) Make sure to sign up for a launch notification here: eepurl.com/iEYmAw

[@richardh1923]

could a version of that guild system be implemented in a future wingspan expac?

[@jameystegmaier]

Anything is possible, but there are no plans for Wingspan to borrow mechanisms from Wyrmspan.

[@kpocinnede6451]

When will stonemaier champions be able to pre-order the game and how long would the shipping take in the US? Can’t wait to get a copy :)

[@jameystegmaier]

Wyrmspan will launch on our webstore on January 31, with shipping happening throughout February (and beyond, depending on the number of orders).

[@zGetsu]

I think one simple but crucial component that is missing from these shared draft games is increasing the cards in the center row based on player count to help the buy row remain more stable when adding more players. In wingspan, it doesn't increase till the large group variant. Increasing per player would really help with game stability and consistency, otherwise it tends to be best at 2 player.

[@jameystegmaier]

I think it depends on what you're looking for. I agree that with more face-up cards, you slightly increase the chance that a card you want will still be there when it comes back around to your turn (though it's far from a guarantee, as a strong turn can net a single player multiple cards; adding more cards decreases the tension of grabbing a card you really want while you have the chance and also increases information overload and analysis paralysis). On the flip side, I'm not sure all players are looking for stability on the card display. I've heard many players say that they want the cards to refresh more often. Either way, you're welcome to add extra cards to your card row when you play at higher player counts--it's a super easy house rule to implement. Give it a try and let us know if it worked as you hoped!

[@zGetsu]

@JameyStegmaier I like the idea of cards refreshing more often. The new ark nova expansion has a cool way of doing it for a larger buy row. My playgroup has also experimented with variations of buy row cycling and increased size for various games. My play group has experimented with adding more cards to the buy row of deck builders like star realms and ascension at higher player counts. We have preferred them that way as we believe it is helping maintain the same level of tension as 2 player variants rather than quickly devolving to having to play from the top of deck or the buy row going untouched for multiple turns. I like that wingspan has an end of round refresh rule to help with the latter. I've thought about suggesting we try an increased buy row size for wingspan. I've only played wingspan a few times and always in large groups. I have wondered if there was an optimal player count it was designed for. Is there one? And what do you think the pros and cons are for a 3 size buy row at different player counts?

[@jameystegmaier]

@@zGetsu Wingspan was designed to be functional and fun for the full range on the box (1-5 players). I generally like the 3-card option, though I'm okay with deckbuilders going up to 5 face-up cards. I agree that Ark Nova has a neat way of cycling cards (without getting rid of cards too quickly) using the wave mechanism.

[@stonesaber]

What made you decide to make Wyrmspan related to Wingspan instead of a completely separate thing?

[@jameystegmaier]

The whole point of Wyrmspan is that it is familiar-but-different. It shares some similarities to Wingspan--for years, Wingspan fans have asked us to make versions of the game with other creatures--yet it also has some significant differences, as we wanted to do more than just use Wingspan's exact mechanisms and cards with different art.

[@stonesaber]

Do you feel the desire to stay close to wingspan limited some design aspects, or made you drop certain mechanisms/elements because they wouldn't "fit the formula"? @@jameystegmaier

[@jameystegmaier]

@@stonesaber No, I don't feel that way, nor was it a goal to "fit the formula." The goal was the provide the best experience to players.

[@stonesaber]

@@jameystegmaier Thank you for the responses, I was a bit apprehensive at first, worrying that Wyrmspan could just be legally distinct Wingspan but with dragons, but after seeing this and reading more on your responses on other comments I'm excited to add it on my shelf.

[@tiberiocamargo]

Will the wyrms names get translated in each language? In wingspan portuguese/brazilian game some objectives are Hard for People Who dont know English (even though The objectives have a "dictionary" written). Magic TCG does a great job in localization and keywords Thanks for removing the "flavor text" at the bottom so the card characteristics are bigger. (wingspan has an "add-on" package with bigger font)

[@jameystegmaier]

Our localization partners will make that decision. I think most of them will try to translate the name as closely as possible, but these are all fictional names (with no connection to abilities or goals), so we're flexible.

[@christophersimons8900]

I wasn’t around in the hobby in 2017 when Gaia Project came out - but on the surface this seems like an analogous situation. 5 years after publishing Terra Mystica they release “a new game in the line of Terra Mystica” that is a different theme, heavier (4.4 complexity vs 3.97 of Terra Mystica) with some additional mechanisms but enough similarities that BGG labels it as “reimplementing” the original game. This seemed quite popular and has passed Terra Mystica in BGG ranking (12 all time vs 26). Does this feel like an appropriate analogy to you?

[@jameystegmaier]

I think that's an excellent analog to Wingspan vs Wyrmspan. Oddly, I don't remember any fuss when Gaia Project was released, or maybe I just didn't focus on the fuss. :)

[@FrankSkornia]

I was also thinking of the differences between Ticket to Ride and Ticket to Ride: Europe. Overall very similar mechanics, but TTR:E having some new mechanics to add complexity and new tactics.

[@christophersimons8900]

@@jameystegmaier Hopefully it becomes as successful as Gaia Project did!

[@erikvandokkum4274]

One question: Once you've played a cave card to excavate further space for your dragons, can you play a dragon on top of the cave card on your mat or is it one space less for a dragon?

[@jameystegmaier]

That's actually why you're excavating caves (playing cave cards)--so you can then place a dragon on them. You cannot place a dragon on an unexcavated space.

[@Ddunk76]

Obviously without looking at the instruction manual (cause we cant) when does a round end? Wingspan is when you run out of cubes, wyrmspan has no cubes? What determines when the round is over?

[@jameystegmaier]

It's when each player has passed (which is usually when you run out of coins, but sometimes you pass a little early).

[@MattOz]

Jamey, have you thought about showing images on a computer screen instead of holding items up to the camera? It may make them easier to see, especially as it does not require the camera to refocus and won't be moving around in your hand.

[@jameystegmaier]

Definitely! That's what I do with StreamYard for most of my recent videos, using BGG images on my second stream. But there aren't enough images on BGG for Wyrmspan yet--I'm working on that. :)

[@the_verTigO]

Can you already say when translated versions (namely German) will be released?

[@jameystegmaier]

That's for our localization partners to share (plus, I don't know). Feel free to ask Feuerland! :)

[@uyttenhoveangelo]

Tis looks so cool! Want to play it as soon as possible. Can we pre-order or something ?!

[@jameystegmaier]

For now you can sign up for a launch notification. It'll be available to order on our webstore on January 31, with shipping in February.

[@uyttenhoveangelo]

Great! Shipping also in Europe? Or is this on another date?

[@jameystegmaier]

@@uyttenhoveangelo The plan is to ship from all of our fulfillment centers (US, Canada, Europe, and Australia) throughout February.

[@Stealer_Of_Joy]

I'm a little upset at how excited I am for the booklet of dragon facts.

[@Cotick55]

Can we read this book about dragons online?

[@jameystegmaier]

Maybe samples of it, but the full book will only be in the game.

[@HDimagination]

Looks like fun! I do have some lingering questions regarding the presence of 'Milk' as a resorce on a conceptual level... Are we feeding Cow milk to dragons, or on a more disturbing level, are the dragons producing the milk themselves some-how? Both poissibilities are some-how equally disturbing...

[@jameystegmaier]

Here's what designer Connie says about this: "My thought was that if dragons are warm blooded (a lot of lore depicts them that way), then perhaps many of the other evolutionary constraints on mammals applied to dragons, which could include some kind of extra sustenance when young. Plus, nature is weird - echidnas and platypuses are mammals that lay eggs, and many reptiles (including garter snakes) give birth to live young. It seemed like "milk" was a good way to indicate with a short-hand that the resource is relevant only for the baby dragons, not for the adults. In my mind, dragons are a bit of all of them - they have evolved to fill a bunch of different ecological niches, so some are more like birds, some are more like reptiles, and some are more like mammals."

[@HDimagination]

@@jameystegmaier Fantastic response. that will help me get to sleep at night!

[@ryancook5063]

Are there expansions planned for Wyrmspan?

[@jameystegmaier]

We don't have anything planned or in the works for Wyrmspan. We're certainly open to the possibility, but we'll wait until after people have played the game before discussing the future.

[@user-yd9lv9ji6x]

We've been awaiting an African birds expansion! Then you could do a historial/ extinct/ endangered set, etc. But, PLEASE, do the African set so that the continents are settled. Africa is a HUGE hole in the game...@@jameystegmaier

[@JoeRichardsWells]

Hey @JameyStegmaier, can we just say that all "egg costs" are the eggs hatching (in both Wing amd Wyrm) as you remove the egg from your board? Thematically this is so much nicer (wth is an 'egg cost' in the real world) and mechanically it is identical. We can just imagine these lil birds or dragons fly pff somewhere. The hatchling cards are hatched eggs that just hang about. In future designs "spending" egg icons could be depicted with a crack in the egg? It makes sense that eggs don't hang around forever, so it would just really round the theming off nicely.

[@jameystegmaier]

Yes, that works thematically, particularly well for the hatchlings in Wyrmspan.

[@JoeRichardsWells]

You could also store your hatched eggs (may require tallying on paper and returning to supply if you run out) and say use this total to settle a draw at the game end, if necessary. Just takes away from the kind of pointless feeling of spending eggs (thematically I mean), but gives a tiny possible benefit at game end instead (as well as feeling like you nurtured all these babies -- cus, you did right?!).

[@JoeRichardsWells]

​@@jameystegmaieroh hi, neat to see a quick reply - nice to hear your positive thoughts on the idea!

[@kenodo]

Wyrmspan sounds like it's right up my alley! I LOVE Lost Ruins of Arnak, and gameplay sounds very similar. Also love the solo playability. Does anyone know if Wyrmspan offers solo play as well? I don't think I was able to catch that, unless I missed it. Looking forward to getting myself a copy of this game. 🙌🙌

[@jameystegmaier]

Indeed, there is a full Automa solo mode in Wyrmspan; check out the January 10 design diary post for details: stonemaiergames.com/games/wyrmspan/design-diary/

[@kenodo]

@@jameystegmaier awesome, thanks! 🙏

[@MsGinahidesout]

I'd love to see a version with mammals!

[@piranhaplant3770]

Can't wait for wingwyrm.

[@EpicFamilyAdventures]

Why does the Goals board have to be so big? Table space is crucial! Minimize the table space please :)

[@jameystegmaier]

Oh, we absolutely took table space into consideration for this game--that's why the boards are separate so you can fit them modularly on the table. They really don't take up much space (it's the player mats that take up space). It's important for the goal board to be the size it is to (a) fit the goal tiles and (b) have plenty of room for cubes of different values based on how they score. It's possible that we could have trimmed it down a bit at the top for the things you do at the end of each round, but we found that it playtested really well to have those reminders built into the mat instead of a separate tile or reference card. Of course, you're welcome to judge this when you get it to your table. But I can assure you that table space very much impacted the choices we made for creating the goal board, guild board, and card display board.

[@yardene3426]

A dragon pack for Wingspan would be great.

[@jameystegmaier]

There won't be a crossover between the two games, but if you want to play a different game with some similarities to Wingspan, we have Wyrmspan for you.

[@Talliesyn]

Looks like you neatly pack few more mechanisms here and there in wyrmspan. Still not sure how viable it's gonna be to just rush one "habitat" instead of gradually developing on every one, have my doubts. This may be an illusion of choice. I so agree with the flavor text removal, it was a lot of clutter to me.

[@jameystegmaier]

I played it with some friends just the other day, and almost everyone focused on a specific row, extending it all the way before moving beyond the second column of any other row (with plenty of time to use the engine they created in the extended row and then leverage that engine to improve the other rows).

[@Talliesyn]

@@jameystegmaier that's great to hear! Thanks for the answer! Fingers crossed :)

[@MikeKasprzak]

lol, once Wyrmspan grows and gets a few expansions, I would still love to see a Wingspan crossover expansion that introduces dragons into the ecosystem (because its fun). I would be so amused seeing an owl attempt and fail to hunt a dragon with a literal wingspan of a kilometer. 😆

[@LetsKeepThePeace]

"You can use an egg and some milk to hatch a baby dragon...". Wait a minute! Milk? XD

[@jameystegmaier]

Here's what designer Connie says about this: "My thought was that if dragons are warm blooded (a lot of lore depicts them that way), then perhaps many of the other evolutionary constraints on mammals applied to dragons, which could include some kind of extra sustenance when young. Plus, nature is weird - echidnas and platypuses are mammals that lay eggs, and many reptiles (including garter snakes) give birth to live young. It seemed like "milk" was a good way to indicate with a short-hand that the resource is relevant only for the baby dragons, not for the adults. In my mind, dragons are a bit of all of them - they have evolved to fill a bunch of different ecological niches, so some are more like birds, some are more like reptiles, and some are more like mammals."

[@________vini]

Can’t wait!!!

[@Logaan777]

The "How to Train Your Dragon" book series had Dragon cards you can collect. Should have gone with that IP. Would have fit perfectly!

[@jameystegmaier]

I love How to Train Your Dragon...but I also love creating in and exploring new worlds.

[@wroomer5398]

Just FYI Wyrms and Dragons are different mythological creatures. Wyrms doesn't have wings nor legs, wyverns on the other hand have two wings and two legs, which are the most common to mistake as a dragon, whilst dragons have four legs and two wings. Either way, the game looks great and looks like a nice addition to the Wingspan universe.

[@jameystegmaier]

That's correct! Wyrmspan includes all types of dragons, including wyvern, wyrms, river dragons, etc; they're inspired by mythology, lore, and cultures from around the world.

[@Excuse711]

I always go for game mechanisms first and Wingspan is a favorite of mine. I am so excited for this game that has some similar moves so all of the haters who said "birds? who wants a game about birds?" and "I would play if it were dragons". I have heard those comments so many times actually. And now, here it is! It's own game for sure but lots of Wingspan elements. I seriously think Wingspan should be even higher in the BGG top 100. It has to be one of those games that gets hate-ratings from all of those bird naysayers. So now here is a game for all of those people who were against Wingspan for all of the wrong reasons. Though I understand plenty of people are theme-first, gaming has made me the opposite. So many things I love in real life have games with boring game mechanisms and I have parted with those games. Games like Wingspan prove even the most random topic game can be interesting and fun. I never knew I'd love so many games about farming for example when I find trade and farming etc completing uninteresting in real life. The love of this new game will just prove Wingspan mechanically should be even closer to number one of all time!! So excited!!

[@jameystegmaier]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I'm honestly glad that so many people have embraced Wingspan even if they aren't into birds--we've probably helped turn some gamers into birders, as well as some birders into gamers. :) Hopefully Wyrmspan will capture imaginations in a new way!

[@MrLogic85]

You feed a dragon milk? Is it like a platypus, a mammal that lie eggs?

[@jameystegmaier]

A little bit like that. Here's designer Connie Vogelmann's reasoning: “My thought was that if dragons are warm blooded (a lot of lore depicts them that way), then perhaps many of the other evolutionary constraints on mammals applied to dragons, which could include some kind of extra sustenance when young. Plus, nature is weird - echidnas and platypuses are mammals that lay eggs, and many reptiles (including garter snakes) give birth to live young. It seemed like “milk” was a good way to indicate with a short-hand that the resource is relevant only for the baby dragons, not for the adults. In my mind, dragons are a bit of all of them - they have evolved to fill a bunch of different ecological niches, so some are more like birds, some are more like reptiles, and some are more like mammals.”

[@MiseryRex]

Well, one has birds and one has Dragons! Which is objectively awesome.

[@koyko4]

Potential for another million copies sold game

[@pohweijie]

Is there something that adds more player interactions? It feels like in wingspan that you're just doing your own stuff. What other players does is almost none of my business. I can't stop them, maybe yes, take that food they need. Now it really feels like multilayer solitaire?

[@jameystegmaier]

In terms of player interaction, we pursued a similar vibe to Wingspan in that there are reasons to pay attention to other players, but you’re never attacking or intentionally hurting other players. Imagine a world where dragons of all shapes and sizes are just as common as birds-hopefully our first thought wouldn’t be to use them as vehicles of war. There are still areas of tension in Wyrmspan, though. The special guild benefits are limited, and they scale by player count (one side of the guild tile is for 2-3 player; the other for 4-5 players). The end-of-round goals are always relative to other players (though ties are friendly). There’s also the tension of claiming available cave and dragon cards before an opponent. And Wyrmspan includes my favorite type of interaction-positive player interaction-via a number of dragon and cave cards that benefit all players.

[@Kris_rand34]

What about goal cards they remain unchanged or you removed them from Wyrmspan? To be honest they gave small amount of points in Wingspan especially compering to the effort put. Second thing that comes to my mind which was not working in Wingspan are number of cards we are drawing. Sometimes it was better to play what we got instead of putting additional effort to look through deck and find what we really want.

[@jameystegmaier]

We've moved the types of scoring that would be on bonus cards over to dragon cards and the dragon guild.

[@Kris_rand34]

@@jameystegmaier sounds like a good move. Fingers crossed for the new title, I hope it will be released in Poland 😉 looking on the large success of the Wingspan in Poland I'm pretty sure of that 🙂

[@ianwilz1979]

The more I see the differences the more excited I get.

[@blazing_KC]

Do those baby dragons evolve?

[@Bighomer5]

I never got into Wingspan; here's hoping this game will click for me (dragons!).

[@jameystegmaier]

Dragons! :)

[@toadbergx]

Still hoping for the plant version of this game called "Leafspan" 🍃

[@jameystegmaier]

Check out the game Botany! :)

[@BenKonosky]

"You can't play birds in Wyrmspan" Challenge accepted!

[@jameystegmaier]

You'll need to equate some resources in Wyrmspan to the different food types in Wyrmspan. :)

[@tiford184]

Personally, Wyrmspan looks like a Wingspan-killer. I really like the look of the changes - they looks like they will benefit player agency in developing our strategy, open up interesting moments throughout the game, and also improve replayability because of the blend of new mechanics. Wingspan got a bit stale for me after a few initial good plays

[@wankertanker1813]

I am excited. Can the cave explorers get eaten? If it were realistic they'd be able to. ;)

[@jameystegmaier]

In Wyrmspan, dragons do eat meat, but not human meat. :)

[@wankertanker1813]

@@jameystegmaier but are the cave explorers human... :D

[@MikeKasprzak]

RIP birdfeeder. 🐦

[@Phaeton667]

Great marketing choice to make a similar game but with dragons for people like my friend who thought Wingspan looked too "girly" for him even though it is an amazing game with gorgeous art. We are both dudes, but he is a silly middle-aged brit dude, so here are your freakin dragons now, so let's play.

[@jameystegmaier]

Perhaps Wyrmspan will be a gateway into Wingspan for your friend--I don't think there's anything gender-specific about being fascinated by birds. :)

[@Phaeton667]

@JameyStegmaier Thanks, I think it will. Great overview video, I'm excited! There isn't anything gender specific about playing a board game themed after birds, hence why he is silly silly. I called him out on it too since it seemed like a game he would enjoy.

[@marshallchaney8845]

If this was coming from a random game company, I'd be worried that this was just a nerd-washed iteration of Wingspan designed to market to core gamers who aren't interested in a "boring" subject like birds. Y'all get the benefit of the doubt though. And it's not like there isn't overlap... my wife absolutely loves Wingspan and also loves dragons...

[@jameystegmaier]

I appreciate you giving Wyrmspan a chance! :)

[@rikhavok]

Originally I thought this was just a cash grab. Thanks for this video. Well, it’s definitely a cash grab as any expansion is. BUT…. just like the new standalone expansion for Dune: Imperium, It looks like this was a bunch of little expansion ideas that are different enough that they need a new base game. Pity that the two games aren’t combinable however. So call me sucker, I’m in.

[@jameystegmaier]

The way we view it, Wingspan brought joy to a lot of people, and many of those people have requested for years that we make a version of the game with different creatures. We could have just reskinned the game (same exact mechanisms and cards but with dragon art/names), but we didn't. I'm not even sure I know what a cash grab is. Is it a cash grab when an author writes a sequel to a beloved book? When a car company makes a new model of a car people like? When an artist paints something in the same style as a popular painting? We put a lot of time, effort, resources, and love into Wyrmspan, and yes, this is a product that we are hoping to provide to people in exchange for money. That's the same for any product or service that anyone has ever made. But the goal isn't to grab anyone's cash: It's to spark their imagination, inspire their creativity, and make them smile when their hatchling grows up or they find a way to play a cave for free. I appreciate you being open to the possibilities Wyrmspan provides.

[@rikhavok]

@@jameystegmaier WOW Jamey! Fast reply. Thanks! The definition of a Cash grab is: A product designed primarily or solely with the intent of generating profits or money. So, when some companies makes an expansion for a game or movie or book sequel AND the work that goes into making it generally is inferior than it should be or using a name recognition of one thing to sell another. IE… a reskin of another game or an overpriced expansion. For example, using Terraforming Mars as an example, they added TM to the title of Ares Expedition. That concept was a cash grab. However Ares Expedition was actually a pretty awesome game! In fact, I like it better than the original. So, a lot of people are picking on Wyrmspan, calling it a cash grab. I just said that it seemed like that at first. But, you guys really put a lot of work into it. So, are you using Wingspan’s good name as a cash grab in the sale of Wyrmspan? Of course you are! And, you know it. You however are going to do a lot of marketing to show how it is infact it’s own game based on the beloved game of wingspan. I love wingspan. It is one of my most favorite game of all time. Some people are just worried that with a game like this, you can mess with the good name of the original. I hope that doesn’t happen. I see the love that went into this sequel. This very video proves it. Jamey, I am so in!

[@jameystegmaier]

@@rikhavok I appreciate you discussing this, and I see your perspective. It's something I struggle to relate to--even in your example of Ares Expedition, they clearly put a lot of work into creating it, even if part of their intent was to make money--but I see where you're coming from. I sure hope we haven't messed with the good name of Wingspan.

[@rikhavok]

@@jameystegmaier First of all, I love Stonemaier games. When I look at a game by you, I still do my homework to see if it’s a game that I am going to like before buying it, but I always start with a bias that you have a good product coming out. As an example, Scythe is not my cup of tea because I don’t like the conflict aspect, but it is an amazing game and I love Expeditions. Also, that term Cash Grab does get thrown around and misused a lot. So there is a fine line between cash grab and wanting a game to be profitable. Why would a game company make a game that they don’t anticipate making profit on? That’s just bad business.

[@jameystegmaier]

@@rikhavok Exactly! :)

[@KevinAdams06]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Wingspan: chicken, Wyrmspan: egg.

[@c.s.2193]

No dinosaurs 😢

[@jameystegmaier]

Birds are dinosaurs. :)

[@wrany72]

Take my money.

[@jameystegmaier]

Join us on January 31. :)

[@user-ui4ik3gn8q]

Anyone wants Pokémon X wingspan spin-off?

[@jameystegmaier]

We tried! Pokemon wasn't interested. :)

[@Vaye1986]

No player interaction still? It's just solitaire again

[@jameystegmaier]

Both games feature player interaction (just not combat, theft, or destruction, if that's how you're defining interaction). Solitaire is when you have zero impact and no reason to pay attention to other players. In Wyrmspan, the special guild benefits are limited, and they scale by player count (one side of the guild tile is for 2-3 player; the other for 4-5 players). The end-of-round goals are always relative to other players (though ties are friendly). There’s also the tension of claiming available cave and dragon cards before an opponent. And Wyrmspan includes my favorite type of interaction-positive player interaction-via a number of dragon and cave cards that benefit all players.

[@herbertph8879]

So much hate… nobody is talking about a company milking azul or uwe milking agricola.

[@jameystegmaier]

I'm glad they're not--my favorite version of Azul is Summer Pavilion, and I love Caverna! :)

[@sergeiseysmo6460]

Looks like an awesome spinoff. Can’t wait to play it. However, I did like the flavor text very much on a cards in wingspan 🥲

[@jameystegmaier]

With the 32-page, full-color dragon fact book we've included in the game, you'll get those facts (and in more detail since we're not limited to space on cards).