Powder Load Development - 284 Win vs Vihtavuori N165

Videos on this channel are for informative, and entertainment purposes only. Using any of the information is at the risk of the individual using the information. We (including KZbin) will not be held liable for any injury or damage resulting from attempting anything shown or discussed in any of our videos. By viewing or flagging this video you are acknowledging the above.
Handloading/Reloading can be dangerous if done improperly. Do Not use the charges shown in this video without first doing a safe load workup. Failure to work up safely can result in damage, injury, or death. The loads shown were safe in my rifle and specific barrel used. Changes in any component, including lot numbers of powder, primer, cases, or projectiles can result in unsafe maximum pressures.
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[@mikemabini6361]

Great information Keith! Thanks for sharing your time with us.

[@timothybutler1]

Always good to see a top shooters perspective. Thanks for sharing Keith!

[@robertself9125]

Thank you for your videos. I really like how detailed your videos are.

[@1340MB]

Great video. I will be using this info when I start loading for a 284. Thanks Keith.

[@rongray8934]

Thanks for this video. Great timing as I have to sight a rifle in very soon. You do such a great job at making it easy to understand.

[@carlread3494]

Keith, thankyou, that was the best video I've seen so far for load development. Thankyou from Queensland Australia. 👍

[@daverieck6352]

Always enjoy your videos. Your a great presenter . Thank you

[@asanta5390]

This really opened my eyes 👀 up , to having to go harder . This explains WHY I wasn't getting results I was wanting . Cheers 🍻

[@johnpassier7783]

Wow...thank you, thank you, thank you ; awesome presentation with understandable explanations ; really appreciate your site...cheers from New Zealand ; can't wait to go to the range again.

[@winninginthewind]

You're very welcome!

[@scottupatree3356]

Great video!

[@coreystock5361]

Amazing Keith. So much knowledge. Can’t wait to apply what I learn from you.

[@winninginthewind]

Glad it was helpful!

[@warbirdflyerF4U]

Another great video Keith I do my testing the same way with a basic knowledge of my initial seating depth ( 6br norma ) starting at 100 and finishing at 300 ! My results have been great with Varget powder and 80gr. Malerba bullets (e.s. of 4 and s.d of 2 ) 1 in 8 twist !! Keep up the great videos!!

[@jamestrainoff3067]

Straight forward and informative video Keith! I just received my Bartlien 32" barrel chambered in .284 Shehane with 1 in 8.5 twist. I will be testing the N165 powder with Berger 190gr. LR hybrids. I've tuned the 180gr. Berger Hybrids with N160 in my 30" Brux barrel 1 in 8 twist, chambered the same with great results at 2850 fps. Looking forward to the next video Keith!

[@kevingeary1472]

What an awesome video! Thank you!!

[@tomphillips2608]

Went to the range yesterday. Using identical load data I used on 150gr Berger elite hunters for their VLD hunting (Vlds being the only 7mm thing available), I was embarrassed by the difference. Best "grupe" 1.48. Previously high 3s with the elite hunter,a hybrid. So this is well timed and greatly appreciated. N165, 65.5gr, cci 250,nosler 2x fired 1x trimmed, annealed. 7mm rem mag. Previously great jump performance at .015 off lands. May try Berger jump system next. Thanks again!

[@wm.traynor1143]

Thank you very much. This will require careful note-taking on my part😄

[@tommywinthrop3429]

N165 states that it is temperature stable. So hopefully you will see good results in summer temperatures!!! Thank you this was very informative!!!

[@magwamagwa45110]

What a great video thank you so much for sharing your information and explaining it so even I can understand :)

[@GreatValueVarget]

Step 1: Have a rifle capable of shooting 1/4" at 100. In all seriousness this would be an interesting series of you doing this with different styles of rifles from something off the shelf in the $5-800 range off a bipod and a rear squeeze bag to some more high end factory rifles. Would bring alot of clarity to what most people should reasonably expect from their rifles and show how you tackle the inconsistencies in said rifles and still pull useful data from that. Loving the videos Keith!

[@GreatValueVarget]

I personally find it hard to even hold sub 1/3" at 100 in the prone with a bipod and rear bag so would be nice to see contrasting situations and see how your results vary

[@James-cv5tx]

Thank you , its a really helpful video

[@juantovar4861]

Awesome video, thank you.

[@pstewart5443]

It's just amazing to me how well VV makes their powder. It's just by far the best on the market. N135 I hear is now being used on the 308 National Team firing line, because it's in stock and shoots so well. Every single time I've done load dev on any VV powder, it's under 10 SD. It stinks in terms of smell, but it sure is quality powder. N555 is an awesome powder. I've used N160, N555.. N133. & N135. Never had a single weird issue out of any of em. If it were more in stock, I'd be shooting it over H4350. Good video Keith. Looking forward to seeing you in June if you're coming in for V2.

[@upnorthreloading2214]

Fantastic breakdown and description! This method strikes me as very close to the OCW method; I think that the biggest difference, other than including a Labradar chrono, is not using a round-robin order for firing rounds?

[@lemonaid1605]

I like that circle cross target and will make my own version to test with. Question: Any studies or tests on how the target shape/style/color will effect group size?

[@rsvarminters9083]

Thank you Sir.

[@RWeeks-hx9ut]

Kind of off topic of this video, but when you were setting up for the 600 yd. testing I noticed the value anemometer from Amazon that you spoke of in one of your previous videos. Any long term update? I assume since you are still using it that it is serving its purpose. Keep up the great, informative videos coming.

[@medfloat5001]

Good info, thanks

[@vprimo0052]

Hey Keith thanks for all the good load development advice. I have a question about the paper target you shoot Is there a pdf of it, or is it online? It’s shown in this video at 7:28. Thanks a lot.

[@MasonStormSunny]

After each shot the internal state of the barrel is different than the one from before that shot (copper/lead & burnt powder deposit). I call it a volatile internal state of the barrel. How do you account for that?

[@winninginthewind]

You can't. Even when shooting round-robin, the internal state of the barrel is ever changing. With that in mind, a dirty barrel is going to change less over a number of rounds than a dead clean one. Proper fouling prior to testing is the key to the best results in my experience.

[@billyarnold6633]

Thank you! .

[@tyler6147]

This video didn't even cut out! Not even once! :)

[@rgthomson1]

The N165 may be a touch slow for 284 but made me think i would get this to work in my Shehane, and if i were you i would have done a little more on the load with an ES of 1 and my thinking on it is the vld for me likes 15 thou jam, if you having any trouble with seating depth guys, hunting and hybrids 20 thou off and with an ogive like vld jamming usually works for them, good vid for the learners Kieth, nice to see someone who knows what they are talking about

[@pjones7836]

Nice, thanks for the video. My big question is: have you ever picked a load due to the SD (IE: larger group size, smaller SD)? Or do you end up just using the SD as a tie breaker?

[@winninginthewind]

Yes I have, and it didn't turn out well.

[@Longshothawk]

Does the scatter node being 1.5-2% away from a shooting node translate to other cartridges as well? Or is that specific to the 284 with a particular length barrel?

[@winninginthewind]

In my experience, yes. From 7-270 WSM to the little 223 rem, it usually finds its way in there.

[@Longshothawk]

@@winninginthewind why have I never heard this before? Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Your saving me time, money, and headaches.

[@toddb930]

Thank you for putting this together. If you don't have any idea of seating depth, what size steps would you take for COAL to get a rough idea of where to start?

[@winninginthewind]

I do rough testing n .006" increments. I could go a little bigger, but I can cover quite a bit of ground very quickly at .006". Remember that if the first two aren't close together, it's time to move on.

[@MScholtz]

@@winninginthewind what would you call bigger? I tried a few 0.5mm (0.02in) that seem way to big now. A 71mm oal works with my Custom Comps however I'm working up a scenar now. Would going 0.25mm / 0.01in increments be too big. As I have very little idea where these would work. And then I'd go from 70 - 72 mm oal which would be 24 rounds for seating depth. And a few more for fine tuning. I've chosen my load based on where GRT says I should be on a node.

[@winninginthewind]

I don't do anything in steps larger than .010, too easy to completely miss a good spot.

[@juliusjames5577]

I see master yoda. Let the rifle speak to you. Most insightful

[@pedrojacome4106]

Do your right hand actually grab the stock or you just touch the trigger with one finger? Very interesting technique indeed! Greetings from Brazil

[@MrBoostin18]

You talk about competitive velocity. Does that change per cartage or is it the same for every cartage ? Thanks for all of your videos they are very awesome and informative

[@winninginthewind]

For me, competitive velocity is a situation where I limit the advantage I give to my competitors with my bullet and velocity decisions. Every bullet has a different minimum velocity to be competitive at the highest levels. The other thing to consider is what are your competitors shooting? Not that one person that makes a million, zillion fps, but the people that win matches year after year.

[@MrBoostin18]

@@winninginthewind thank you sir. That makes sense.

[@craignmz5264]

Is there a reason you sent more than one round when you hadn’t hit your desired velocity? Great info!

[@winninginthewind]

I did that solely for the purpose of making a video and barrel warming. If I were doing this for a competition load with an already warm barrel, I would have fired one and moved on.

[@Thoseaboutto911]

At the end, you talked about a final seating depth test. Do you move the bullet back out and work your way back, or do you work your way deeper from there?

[@winninginthewind]

From .010 into the lands, I work both directions. I really expect that I'm already there with this one.

[@jamesgilner5880]

How do you know if you pick a right powder. Usually manuals show many types. Are there certain factors to choose from? How can I figure out which powder or 2 would be best when deciding on load development? Are there any videos about how to pick a powdee?

[@toddb930]

Do you do anything with your powder, (storage and while using), to maintain the moisture content at a constant level? I feel like I chase my tail sometimes due to the powder drying out over time. The velocity from a new, sealed, pound of powder will be lower than many months later when the bottle of powder is almost empty. (I live in a dry part of the US)

[@winninginthewind]

Yes I do! Video coming soon!

[@nathanielgray4235]

If a person wants to find a seating depth first or during the powder test how is that done

[@robertlabarge2527]

At what powder charge would you do your seating depth test at for a new powder,bullet,primer load before doing the optimal powder charge test?

[@winninginthewind]

I'd do it toward the low end of the charge range. We want to be safe, and seating depth does affect pressure.

[@jessewerner4067]

Use a low, starting book charge for seating testing. I test in .005" increments because the seating depth nodes can be narrow, especially for thin profile barrels. .010" is fine for heavy barrels. Take the best charge and use that in the powder charge tests. I've found that the original, optimal seating depth doesn't change more than .005" when you go to fine tune after powder charge

[@robertlabarge2527]

@@winninginthewind thank you, I have been reloading for a very long time and never did bullet seating depth test until I started watching KZbin videos by you, Erik Cortinas and others. The info you and others share is amazing and I appreciate it Thank you again.

[@ANGELCORRAL]

It would be interesting to have the excell to load the data directly.

[@junaidaftabkhan]

Hi Keith I did my load development with N165 and 180 hybrids ar 101 degrees. It was fun , it's tuning up at a charge weight of 56.9 at a velocity of circa 2820. The issue is that as I am using a Panda Action I am getting clicks on camming the bolt. It's a nuisance I want to stay away from. Advise what to do.

[@saulkanno5417]

Hi Keith I have a Remington 700 223 caliber with a brand new stainless barrel I purchased 100 Lapua brass and fire formed 50 and have the gun shooting quarter MOA at 200 yards for 3 shots my question to you is how do I get the other 50 none fireformed cases loaded to shoot the same ? is there a way that I can do that or should I fireform them all 50 just like the first 50 and then duplicate the load .

[@rickyspeakman4445]

Are barrel tuners allowed on f class?

[@teo59]

keith have you tried vv n555? n 165 seems a to slow powder for the 284 win

[@longshooter457]

Did you leave the coal @ jam or back it off some?

[@rload4374]

Hello Keith. Do you have any experience with N160 in the 284?

[@winninginthewind]

Unfortunately, no.

[@tuineag]

Keith, @ 11.00min you said you go with 56.5gn to let some room for grow due to temp - are you allowing only 0.1gn for temp? In another vid you suggested 0.4gn for temp. Are you using a secret formula how to calculate powder charge vs temp?

[@winninginthewind]

Yes, no, maybe. I'm allowing room to grow for temp in two different ways. The first is not going above max pressure, for safety reasons, and the second is to ensure I don't blow through the top of the node window. Remember, there is that upper shelf of the node identified in the video. I also use a reasonable expectation of temperature based velocity change that may or may not be accurate for any given powder. That is where extensive experience with a powder type comes in, and I don't have that kind of experience with this powder. Staying conservative until you know a powder is the best plan I have.

[@dereka6740]

When doing load dev, how long are you waiting between shots?

[@winninginthewind]

That depends on the barrel. In an F-open rifle with a barrel that resembles the axle from a truck, I am only waiting 10-15 seconds between shots. With a lighter barrel, I slow down a lot to keep the barrel temperature down.

[@dereka6740]

@@winninginthewind This is interesting. Would be interested in further understanding the actual temperature effects and how they materialize. Ive thought about this quite a bit and would be interested in feedback on some hypothesis. To start, framing the problem as 2 classes of problems: the first is variation in velocity and the other is variation in POI. For the first (velocity variation), I can see two factors that could influence. First is pretty straight forward being the temperature of the powder from the chamber heat. The other is inner diameter of the barrel changing as a result of CTE; could a smaller or larger diameter effect resistance/friction leading to pressure/velocity changes? The other being POI changes would appear to be a product of two potential CTE effects. The first is asymmetric stress from material removal operations causing asymmetric expansions (is stress relieving a barrel post machining a thing?). The other hypothesis would be ID of the barrel changes having effects predicted by optimal barrel time theory (ie large ID of barrel causing larger group size). With all that, can you kill any of these ideas directly or expand on/point me in the direction where I can learn more about these subjects?

[@pjones7836]

Have you ever done a negative test for a 20 shot string at a match? IE: shooting 55.4 (the scatter node)

[@winninginthewind]

Not intentionally at a match.

[@pjones7836]

@@winninginthewind how about a 20 shot string outside a match?

[@recgolf]

Your goal is 1/4 moa for F-open. Does it change for FTR?

[@winninginthewind]

Yes, in that shooter skill gets mixed in more broadly with a bipod. In that case, a little interpretation is in order. It may not print all shots into 1/4MOA on the paper, but the one out is known or suspected to be shooter error - I consider that as good as one is going to get.

[@mac-one-oh]

Is that a Barnard action?

[@ljolik2000]

13:40 is it any tool or just excel sheet?

[@winninginthewind]

I use Excel for just about all of my analysis.

[@BRADASSOFFGRIDHOMESTEAD]

Erik is your friend in this? What happened?

[@winninginthewind]

Ask him - he started it.

[@jcjustice3786]

👍👍👍

[@hungryyeti2548]

Einstein

[@kenthall6584]

Outstanding video! Thanks

[@winninginthewind]

Glad you liked it!