Winston LiFePO4 Part 2: 123BMS Install

At long last my 400Ah Winston LiFePO4 is alive, thanks to a 123Smart BMS. Be warned - this is a long video - but I hope fairly thorough.
Bit of a quick and dirty edit I'm afraid as so pushed for time getting this van working.
Parts used:
Winston 400Ah 3.2v cells x 4: www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-...
123 Smart BMS: www.ev-power.eu/Battery-Manag...
123 Smart Relay: www.ev-power.eu/Battery-Manag...
Votronic VBCS 60/40/430: www.roadpro.co.uk/product/02d...
Edecos 1500w Inverter: www.amazon.co.uk/EDECOA-Power...
Anything else please ask :)

[@atmm89]

thank you so much, very helpful and looking forward to your next video

[@malcolmbullock4297]

Thanks very much. Just ordered 400ah cells x 8 today. Didnt realise about drilling out the boards for sure! Also ill make sure i have the ring terminals etc in stock. Cheers

[@paulsimon9326]

I'm reading everything I still don't get it in my mind maybe you can make another video of placement connections and everything else that you had added to it but be Crucial about the things that die are needed extra and where they would go

[@EpicAdvanture]

Will this cut the charge to one of the cells so the other cells keep charging? (If one of the cells gets too high)

[@PavolFilek]

Do you log battery temperature ? What range of temps do you have during the year ? Do you use active cooling in summer ?

[@thethoughtmaster]

This is how to teach. Thanks for the information.

[@wb5mgr]

I'm looking at ordering this exact style of battery. If you have time to answer a couple of questions I'd appreciate it. I saw your battery monitoring shows (what I'm assuming) is internal cell temperature. What sort of temps do you see under real world loads when discharging. What about when charging from a more discharged state? How hot does the exterior of the battery get? I am designing my van from scratch and am looking at the possibility of sealing my batteries into a hidden compartment, assuming they don't need a lot of air flow or that they don't generate tons of heat.

[@mackers4144]

thanks for the Vid! Now that you've had a couple of years since the vid was created, whats your view on the Inverter you used? Would you recommend this brand and have you had any problems?Thks

[@dirkogiese3348]

Can you closer show the connection with both blie sensors and the smart relais ?

[@atmm89]

is the inboard card fitted to the negative terminal side and the outboard to the positive terminal side???

[@TheGalifrey]

Nice video, I am planning on using an 8 cell 24v setup using these cells on my coacherhome.

[@aaabbb1579]

Well done, but beware of the wiring! - do not drill the modules - get the right screws, with inside threads and smaller screws on top - connect the battery bridges and the outbound wires with the big screws, washer and spring ring with a torque key to the specs, the bridges and the cable lugs must connect directly to the poles, no washer inbetween, use noalox if you connect copper to aluminium to prevent oxidation! This ensures a tight durable and safe connection with low voltage drop and optimal current flow and does not crack the boards when tightened. - attach the modules on top of the big screws with the smaller screws. The provided mounting in the video can cause high temp on the poles due to lack of pressure or can damage the modules. In no circumstance shall be the module placed between the pole and the cable lug. This is a no-go, on high current there will be a bad connectivity!

[@peterrocan2542]

The modules are meant to be drilled--it says so right in the user manual! Also, his wiring/connection methods are precisely what is spec'd in the Winston battery & 123 SmartBMS user manuals. Also, I have 8 of the Winston 400ah, 3.2v cells in series/parallel, for a nominal 12v system, and the 123SmartBMS & relay---it's been running in my home since 2015, with zero problems. Please stop putting out bad information.

[@gwydionball4114]

Of some use to someone, yes indeed, very interesting, many thanks for sharing. I was sharing your tension as you connected up the terminals! Brave drilling out the boards - I get a bit paranoid just soldering wires onto PCBs!! (If I go down this route for my build I think I owe you a pint for your videos - although I'm not looking at as much as 400Ah!!)

[@SelfBuildCamper]

Thanks, I'll take you up on the pint :)

[@gwydionball4114]

Possibly, if I make it to an SBMCC meet!

[@PaDutchRunner]

It’s better to use smaller Ah cells for durability reasons in mobile applications - large cells tend to break down when subjected to vibrations, etc. If higher Ah is desired, simply use a parallel-serial arrangement, like a 2p4s, 2p8s, or 3p8s, etc.

[@jedics1]

How have these performed long term? Looking at getting them myself.

[@MrGarda42]

Those are some beefy looking cells. Im curious to know youre opinion on these cells from ev-power. Ive been contemplating buying from them or another seller in China (prague is closer to me, so Ev is tempting). Would love to know your thoughts on the battery after your year+ of use. Thanks for the great video 🍻🍻

[@niallwildwoode7373]

Interesting stuff. I'm off grid in Cumbria, and am working on getting rid of my bloody useless lead-acid 'leisure' batteries - 48v @ 400Ah. I've been looking at stringing x75, Headway 3.2v @ 15Ah LiFePo4 cells together to make a 3.6Kw lump, still at 48v. Your batteries would render me a £'s saving, as the Headways need holding cradles and many connection straps to build the bank. But my advantage would be that a faulty unit can be replaced at just the cost of that cell. Do you feel that Winstons (and the supplier) are so reliable that they're the better option? I have to admit that building the Headway powerblock is marginally a ball-ache.

[@DaveDavideo]

Great video, are you batteries still working perfectly ?

[@GWLPowered]

Good and informative video!

[@SelfBuildCamper]

Thanks :)

[@SelfBuildCamper]

The relay is a safety feature to stop the batteries being discharged to low and being damaged. If the BMS sees the cells drop to a preset level, it trips the relay.

[@nlo114]

Thousands of electronic engineers around the world winced the burst into tears when he drilled out the through-plates in the boards. It never ceases to amaze me when people spend thousands on parts and materials, then cobble them together like this. Can't watch the rest of this for fear of what else I might see that cannot be unseen.

[@moestrei]

If you look closely the big pad has a lot of small plated through holes located on the outside area. The manual for the BMS actually says drill out holes to suit.....but that is not a good way, I agree. They should have 6, 8 and 10mm varieties of the boards. More importantly the manual says to connect the high current bits first (links on bat terminals secured with a separate nut) and then place the pcb on top of that, which makes a lot of sense but is not shown in the video. And lastly you supposed to clean up the batt terminals and the link areas of contact first before installing them.

[@vespagts7078]

@@moestrei Sorry, but there's nothing wrong with drilling out the holes--that's what the manufacturer intended. Admittedly, he would have been better had he used a step drill bit.

[@moestrei]

@@vespagts7078 Do you know what a plated through hole on a pcb is?

[@vespagts7078]

@@moestrei I installed a similar configuration at home, and it's been running flawlessly since 2015. 8x Winston 3.2v, 400ah cells, 2p4s, with 123SmartBMS @ 12v nominal.

I am not an electronics engineer but I immediately noticed this bad connection that is under the BMS board. 🙈

[@schubiraptor2685]

Which dip-switch setting (loading characteristic of the votronic vbcs) did you use for the Winston LiFePO4 Cells? Cheers

[@SelfBuildCamper]

I went conservative and used the same settings as Votronic recommend for Victron LiFePO4 cells. This tied in with advice given by an engineer from EV Power.

[@krisinge]

@Self Build Camper: Which size solid copper wire did you use for the bypass current wire that was soldered? Thanks!

[@paulsimon9326]

The only reason I'm gonna use the Welsh and cells is because I should these videos are seeing the price range stat God it would cost me add a senior videos on how to hook them up and truly is very few questions I had glad you showed us to be a mass on a problem where all the real person May for other information saw I appreciate it thank you very much

[@paulsimon9326]

The talk to text feature on my phone is terrible What I meant to say was that the only reason I'm buying the Wilson cells are because of these videos Are we getting to 400 M power system with the 123 Smart BMS all cables and everything does it come in a packs for by 1 400 and power set up are all the wiring and everything included So if you buy the 400 and power for packs All the wiring good com with the whole package

[@tigersharkzh]

I put my terminal bolts on a lathe, made the heads flat then drilled a hole and put a tap into it. Now the boards are screwed on top of the main bolts.

[@lorcro2000]

Would have been easier to solder with some solder flux added, and yes, as you say with wires that thick you need a really powerful soldering iron to heat them enough and quickly. If you don't get them hot enough, the solder joint may just not be solid.

[@francisboundy5170]

Did you also connect the votronic temperature sensor to the battery or decide it was unnecessary?

[@SelfBuildCamper]

Yep, the temp sensor comes with the charger and the Votronic manual says it's needed for LiFePO4. In general, LiFePO4 cells can be damaged if they are too cold and receive a high charge current. The Votronic monitors this and charges at a lower current (if needed) until the temps rise.

[@MohsesLundwerk]

Hi, wich kind of pole caps do you use, or where did you got them?

[@SelfBuildCamper]

I used these: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M14-Bolt-Nut-Dome-Protection-Cap-Caps-Cover-Hex-Bolts-Plastic-Nylon-22mm-Spanner/323239262978?hash=item4b428fbb02:m:meMR755fI_54WtSB7aJPG_g

[@malcolmbullock4297]

Can I ask where you purchased the ring terminal suitable for an M14 stud? Can’t see to find any suitable. Or did you drill yours out? Thanks

[@SelfBuildCamper]

Hi, the smaller ones for the interconnects are actually 13mm but just fitted without any drilling. I bought them here: www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00D92ECWS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 The larger ones I needed for the 50mm cable used were from here: www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01EVSDLVQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Thanks.

[@malcolmbullock4297]

Oh cool, i have those onboard. So even though its an m14 bolt the internal diameter is 13mm? Sorry just a bit confused, but glad its not 14mm id as i couldn't find any! Thanks very much

[@SelfBuildCamper]

It's just the rings I linked to are loose enough to just wiggle into place. The bolts are m14.

[@malcolmbullock4297]

Fantastic, many thanks for that.

[@malcolmbullock4297]

Ps do you know when you'll publish the next episode re your install? Thanks

[@trebor16ify]

Did you bottom charge these first or just top balance with bms from factory.nice job.

[@SelfBuildCamper]

No, I just top balanced with BMS. I have the min/max voltages set very conservatively and told the BMS the battery is just 360Ah. I've never seen the cells more than 0.02v from each other (usually exactly the same). Thanks.

[@mercuryin1]

Hi mate, what is the resting voltage of your cells 24hrs after charging ? I have received the same cells ( 200ah ) and my resting voltage is just 3.39 any thoughts please ? Thanks

[@dvdrwsor]

Can you please update?

[@vespagts7078]

@TECNITRENDY That's what you want, and is a sign of a healthy cell. Keep this in mind; unlike with AGM/Lead Acid batteries, voltage cannot be used as a measure of the state of charge of a lithium cell/battery pack--this is due to the flat charge curve inherent in lithium.

[@merlinoadventure2016]

Hi, you made this video 4 years ago, I wanted to ask you if you still have the batteries and if you are still happy. Thank you.

[@meowzic]

I have 24 of Winston 60ah batteries, so for my 12v system I will have six packs of four. Do you know if I need a separate BMS for each 12v pack? .. which I imagine is going to be costly.

[@jordanmann8595]

In the same boat now, did you find out anything?

[@meowzic]

@@jordanmann8595 I bought two 4s 120a BMS through Overkill Solar. They have great customer support and a manual that will walk you through the process.

[@meowzic]

@@jordanmann8595 I'm actually selling my batteries and BMS through. Decided to go a different direction with my project.

[@jordanmann8595]

You are a life saver!! Been searching the web for hours lol. We’re you happy with the performance of the system? Why did you decide to sell?

[@meowzic]

@@jordanmann8595 I've never had a chance to use it. I'm downgrading my system to something more compact. I bought a shuttle bus but I'm selling that also and buying a van. It's just too large for my needs and I'd prefer something small that I can use as a weekend getaway camper.

[@bravo20ghost27]

Great video the, thank you. Update when you can please.

[@lorcro2000]

Personally I'd measure out the length of the yellow wires and then put the wire and the module on a set of "helping hands" to hold them in place. So much easier to solder.

[@stevelamperta865]

you should have drilled a hole in the top of the bolt and threaded it, then you could bolt the boards on top of the big bolt . would be better i think

I think the contact is bad on the joints where the BMS is compressed on the battery. It would be better to drill small holes and make threads for a smaller screw on top of these big screws and tighten the BMS. I got screws with holes in the top.

[@spammebabe]

Hi, would you know what's advantage of smart double relay over regular dc contractors? I a it's 4X more expensive. I've asked them (ec-power) this question but not received an answer yet.

[@SelfBuildCamper]

I have no idea to be honest. Have you tried emailing 123 for an answer? I found them great with communication (same with EV Power)

[@dino5002]

My guess is its a latching relay. This means that it doesn't take any standby current while a contactor will be huge. For example a typical contactor will take 750mA at 12v. You need two of these (one for load one for charge) so the power requirement over a 24hr period is very large. The disadvantage of using a latching relay is its not fail safe.

[@dertuel]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYXYe4RmiqaWgac

[@panamaguy9460]

I am building a beach club on an island in the Bay of Panama and I am using the exact same batteries, two strings of 16 each. I will keep an eye on your channels but I don't expect either one of us to have problems in the next 10 years. I actually don't see a source for this BMS in the United States?

[@SelfBuildCamper]

Not sure, but EV Power ship worldwide (no supplier in UK either). Good luck with your installation :)

[@panamaguy9460]

Thank You. That is cheaper then the Winston as they don't include shipping. my shipping quoted by ocean and 2 months is $510. but by air about $6000, 2 things. Winston does not want me to use 2 strings in parallel. they forbid it! obviously i can do as I want. They say buy bigger batteries 700 or 1000ah. I think I am buying the 700ah. and a single string I know of Winston I know others that have ordered Winston. they are the second largest battery manufacture in China. And I trust very little from china but they I do trust them.. Just don't want to risk. In the past I order 18165 batteries from China. they we cheap and fake. I am glad they are working for. Come to Panama lol. Show you our project in a year. Google maps: Punta Bajo Rico I own the Ferry service to the islands www.sealasperlas.com

[@H4rleyBoy]

That was scary to watch when you connected the first LB pos to neg, I expected it to go to the neg on the adjacent LB, Sparkies are us NOT.

[@KonaChuck22]

From the evpower-eu.com website: "The maximum charging voltage for initial charge is 4 V. Recommended subsequent charging is to 3.8 V." I recall reading that some LIFEPO4 cell manufacturers, after further testing were recommending their maximum charge voltage be reduced down from 3.65v to 3.60v or 3.55v. The 3.8v for your cells seems high. Is this because of the slightly different chemistry (Yttrium?) of these cells? What voltage are you charging them to?

[@SelfBuildCamper]

Is that what I said somewhere in the video? If so it's not what I did (sorry). I initially charged to 3.65v to balance and now have it set to 3.55v. I know this will reduce my overall usable capacity a little, but it should help with longevity. 3.55v was recommended to me by an engineer at EV Power.

[@kevinfisher1345]

Yea I noticed this on Thunder Sky site itself too, reflecting 4V for initial and 3.8V afterwards. Seems odd to me as I have always heard for LiFePO4 is recommended to never charge >3.6V. Each 0.1V for most batteries will increase power and time needed before having to recharge but comes with trade off of less cycle life. So dropping charge every 0.1V will increase cycle life to a point, which increase of cycle life becomes less and less each time voltage charge is dropped. 3.55 to 3.6 is recommended as good efficiency mark. But like you said these are actually LeFeYPO4, so not sure if this makes difference with charge values or not or simply stated higher from manufacture cause they are not concerned about user less cycle life. It will still be in thousands after all.

[@lorcro2000]

I believe ideally the cells should be charged slowly and individually (or in parallel) the first time, at 3 point something volts. But I like this combo of BMS and battery, and it will probably be what I use. Solid price-performance. However I had underestimated the size of the cells, was planning on 8 cells of some size to achieve 24 volts. Going to use up a fair bit of room somewhere in the van.

[@stevelamperta865]

very good chance there could be cracks in board and or broken connections . Not a good way of doing this at all.

[@FBall-im8ui]

Brutal drilling into such a tiny circuit board, surprise d the metal piece did not coma apart from th eboard aftre thta drilling yikes!

[@vorname1563]

😱😱😱you 2 left hand ?

[@galilfan0198]

I just ordered 1400ah of Winston

[@jpmurray01]

careful with these bms. Since they just balance each battery but dont manage deep depleted or too much charged battery. Especially with 12v system often linked with a alternator producing a steady 13,8v or 14,1v. Lifepo4 have more tolerance than lithium Ion for over charge but a real bms will shutdown the battery completely at 3,6v or below 2,8v since lifepo4 dont like floating charge like lead acid....

[@ElectronicMarine]

hence the relays... the bms hasthe stop charging and stop discharging functions to external relay...

[@123electric]

Hello, Exactly what ElectronicMarine says, you need to use the two signal relays "charge" and "load" to control the charger/inverter or to control an external relay like the 123\SmartRelay in this example. Example: one of the cell voltages gets too high. The BMS will see this and turn the Charge signal relay off. Because you have connected a SmartRelay to this, the SmartRelay will switch off and thus disconnect the charger.

[@PhysicsViolator]

324 dollars for the bms?!? Lol i will solder my own

[@0FlightlessBird0]

how? make a vid.

[@FBall-im8ui]

seems awfully complicated to put a system together makes me want to stay with an all in one generator

[@lorcro2000]

This video shows you every step you need to do. The hardest thing to do is solder some wires and that's very simple, and a soldering iron if you don't have one will not cost a lot.

[@vespagts7078]

@ F. Ball It's actually pretty straight forward, and the video is a very good follow-along. His configuration is 4 x 3.2v cells in series, @ 400 amp hours each; so 12 volts (nominal), or 5,120 watt-hours (4 x 3.2 x 400). I have this very same setup, except that I'm using 8 of those cells; my configuration is 2p4s (2 parallel strings of 4 cells in series) @ 12 volts, which means 800 amp hours (or 10,240 watt-hours). The 123SmartBMS is an easy way to get started, and is actually quite useful in learning what each of the cells & pack is doing. There are better BMS units available, at comparable prices, but they require quite a bit of knowledge to install & configure correctly.