Wiring Your Model Railroad For DCC---Boosters (113)

[@SiouxsieCat]

Thank you for the informative information! This is, by far, my most-watched DCC info channel!

[@Longshadowsmodeltrees]

Thank Larry, going to upgrade my Digitrax, I didn't know they went to DC from AC....I have a older unit....Thank!!! Bob

[@HungryGuyStories]

As someone with a background in home electrical work, I can tell you that your system ground should connect to electrical ground at the point (device or component) that receives power which should ultimately go to earth ground via your service entrance (main breaker panel and/or meter). Power should then branch out like a tree (and this includes the ground). Power (and ground) should never reconnect out among the branches, because this causes loops. Loops induce unwanted eddy currents. When you get induced eddy currents in your ground (because of a loop), it will cause Bad Things(tm) to happen. When houses have had their wiring extended and expanded upon, inadvertent loops are created, and this is generally why you sometimes feel a tingle when you touch the white neutral or green ground (there are other reasons, too, why this happens, but ground loops are the primary cause).

[@TheDCCGuy]

Ground loops are another reason I do not recommend connecting the DCC system to an earth ground and instead prefer a floating ground just for it.

[@espeechoochoo]

Read all the comments and replies. Just wanted to clarify that the ground betw Digitrax components is the 14Ga wire connection on the exterior ground terminals and not connected to anything else, and is not connected to the household AC ground ( 3rd pin on standard plug) due to the isolation in command station/booster ?

[@TheDCCGuy]

While I agree with you that it should not be connected to the household ground, the following is from the Digitrac DCS240 manual and has been in all their system manuals since the mid-1990s: 4.5 Ground (GR) Terminal The terminal marked ground provides electrical safety features and an RF ground reference for minimum radiated noise. This should be the ONLY point of any DCS240 installation that is connected to the AC safety ground pin pro- vided on most 3 pin 110V AC power sockets. Grounding the system is a sensi- ble safety precaution that should not be ignored.

[@geoffreybslater1146]

Love the detail, but for a beginner who has only old fashioned DC trains, but wants to switch to DCC, can you please show the entire system needed for a beginner. DCC Companies must sell a complete system?

[@TheDCCGuy]

Watch Friday.

[@elsdp-4560]

THANK YOU...for sharing.

[@davidgorman2665]

First, love your videos, they provide lots of great information. However you always compare NCE powercab, and not the NCE Power Pro command station. Wondering why.

[@TheDCCGuy]

First, and most important I have a PowerCab but not a Power Pro. I can only afford to buy so much of this stuff and companies are not as free about giving away review units as they once were. Second the PowerCab is an extremely popular system both in the US and the UK and I am sure at other locations globally. So by discussing it I can reach a lot of users whereas the Power Pro has a more limited distribution. Finally, a lot of the programming and operational features are the same or similar for both systems they mainly differ by power and memory spec.

[@SirLANsalot]

So if DCC is an AC power as I have been told, then we are taking AC power from the wall, converting it to DC power for the unit, that is when converting it BACK to AC onto the track, which in turn all of our decoders are, again, converting to DC power for the motors.......

[@joelmorse9592]

Hi again, Larry. I'm re-reading your Practical Guide book. On page 18, in the section "calculating your layout needs" you write: ".... estimate the number of locomotives you'll be operating on an average basis at one time." What is meant by the term "operating"? 1) Do you mean actually moving or is this term referring to all locomotives on the layout (or in the District). And 2) Do you mean with any booster at one time? I have a 150 sf operating N scale layout with a lot of locomotives in staging and in the engine facility (44 in total on the layout, a few with sound), but only 10-12 (5-6 sets) working road trains and in the yards at any one time. This is with two boosters and 2 PM 42's. What number represents the "operating" locomotives? Thanks again, Joel Morse

[@TheDCCGuy]

Operating means running. If the locos are stopped with sound and lights turned off then power use is minimal. As I remember that discussion I was telling how to decide how many boosters you need, so if your calculated power needs are within the rating of your command station then an added booster is not needed.

[@joelmorse9592]

Hi Larry: Unfortunately for me, I did not follow yours (or anyone else's) wiring size recommendations for my 150 sf "E" shaped N scale layout. I've been operating it for 8 years with the wiring the way it is, but as I have added locomotives and sound, in the past couple of years, I've started to get problems with decoders going blank, and runaways. So, it appears the wiring may be inadequate for the current operational parameters. I'm using 16 gauge solid for the buss; but 26 gauge stranded for the feeders. Replacing all the feeders at the rail is a big, big job (layout is scenicked) . One idea I had would be to minimize the lengths of the 26 gauge runs by splicing in 20 gauge wire between the buss and make the 26 ga feeder as short as possible (to reduce the voltage loss). Is that approach likely to help or would it be a waste of time? Thanks, again. Joel Morse

[@TheDCCGuy]

Yep, the higher the current. running through the wires the more that problems are likely to occur. A 150’ bus is trouble waiting to happen. Yes, you may be able to reduce your problems by splicing in shorter and heavier feeders, but that 150’ run will still be there. This is a case where having a booster would allow you to break the run 9n half. And if you put the command station and booster in the middle of each 75’ run then that would get the effective length of each to 37.5’.

[@paulbarcham1356]

I would have one concern in tieing electronic ground to earth ground is to make sure your switch board mains power has lighting and surge protection on the circuit your layout is using as you could take out all your electronics in a lighting strike or power board switching error.

[@TheDCCGuy]

See my response above. Even though I have a whole house surge suppressor built into my main panel I am not sure that it would protect if a nearby strike energized the earth ground rods or a cold water pipe bond. I would actually feel more comfortable drilling a hole through the concrete floor in the basement and shoving a ground rod down through it!

[@paulbarcham1356]

@@TheDCCGuy I would agree in my work role that is the way we do it. we run different earthing system but I think most of us hobby guys would not do that dollars... keep up the great work do find your material well balanced hope you do not mind me put thoughts out there. just some thing could interested you, I am looking at a project using the arduino current module to drive a relay fail safe to open as a dcc overload and short. all the best Paul

[@TheDCCGuy]

Always happy to hear other opinions on the best way to do things so don’t be hesitant to chime in-Larry

[@uptownphotography]

Do the NCE components have the large heat sinks on the back (or anywhere internally). Or are there no heat sinks at all on their system components. Thanks and super informative video. Philip

[@TheDCCGuy]

I have never opened one of their systems but they do not have the external heat sink like a Digitrax system unless they have changed recently. I remember on System One units which were NCE clones the power transistors were attached to a metal bar on the rear of the units and that was attached to the metal case creating a large heat sink. Looking at the NCE diagrams they appear to do the same thing. Digitrax does this too with the exception that the finned heat sink forms the back of the case.

[@uptownphotography]

@@TheDCCGuy I like the idea of the external fins as they are very effective. I was a studio owner and a recording engineer (before doing photography for a living) and I always liked the fins, especially on the audio power amps which generate a lot of heat. Just seems like a good idea. I think NCE should consider adding them....Thanks Larry for the info. Phil

[@johnfalk550]

Where and how do you connect boosters? Thank you

[@tinkersend6140]

Very interesting video. I have a large layout, shaped like an E, for which I have the command station powering the centre and a separate booster for the top and bottom sections. OK, so after contacting Digitrax about locos stalling as they cross between power districts, they suggested linking the ground as you described. So a wire from the centre to the top booster and sure enough the loco runs between nicely and all is well. Then also try connecting from the command station to the other booster for the lower power district and all sorts of problems occur e.g. the track detection system shows occupancy all over the place and various shorts. On talking to my supplier they said that it's OK to put a link between the command station and one booster but from the command station to both effectively creates a short circuit. Is this something you have come across?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I have never seen it and as I said on the Northern Virginia Model Railroaders layout we had 8 daisy chained with grounds. I suspect a sneak path or possibly you have the Track A & B wires reversed on one or more of them.

[@tinkersend6140]

@@TheDCCGuy Hi. Unfortunately I don't think it's a sneak or AB cross. Without the "earth" wire linking the controller to even one booster, modern locos run fine around the layout. I only contacted Digitrax because I have some old Hornby OO locos that pick up power from one rail through the front bogie and form the other rail with the rear bogie and it is these that stop. I read one of the comments here and they also had problems due to firmware in the DB210's. Maybe time to contact Digitrax again. In the mean time I can resolve the old Hornby loco issue by fitting a decoder with a stay alive.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Try swapping the boosters and command station around. At the local club that resolved the problem they were having. Digitrax did tell them to also update their firmware so that might resolve the issue as well. Let me know how it works out for you-Larry

[@wayneholmes4207]

Have you reviewed and compared the newer ESU Cabcontrol wifi system?

[@TheDCCGuy]

Have never seen one however I just got one of the Piko systems which I believe is the same in a different color or case. I was able to get the WiFi throttle to work with my Digitrax system easily but have not had time as yet to test out the full system. More to come!

[@stephenmadden5739]

Hi Larry, thanks for all your videos info, I've learned heaps and confirmed some of my ideas. Do you have block detection on your layout and if so do you have a video for this? Cheers, Stephen (Western Australia)

[@TheDCCGuy]

I am using the NCE BD-20 current sensing transformer based current detectors. For signals I have logic circuit boards based on an article in MR. I still need to get a bunch of the boards completed and unfortunately Oregon Rail seems to have folded leaving me about 6 signals short. I will probably use the Details West signals if they ever get them in production again. I will do a video down the road on this but need to get at least a few blocks completed first.

[@joelmorse9592]

Larry: You indicate what the track voltage should be for HO, but not for N. What voltage do I need for N? Thanks.

[@TheDCCGuy]

I think most drop it down to about 12 volts. Both Digitrax and NCE offer ways to tweak the output on the new DCC command stations and boosters and Digitrax offers the UP6Z for reducing track power by 4 or 6 volts at 3 amps if needed for small scales. Check your loco or decoder manual for their suggested track voltage.

[@joelmorse9592]

@@TheDCCGuy Thanks, Larry, for the quick response.

[@ricter591]

Thanks Larry!

[@TheDCCGuy]

Rick-I always appreciate your feedback, glad to see you are still hanging around-Larry

[@Wrathchildss]

The DB 210, does it come with everything I need to run it? Power supply? Loconet cable? Is a loconet cable an Ethernet cable?

[@TheDCCGuy]

The DB210 is a dumb booster, the DCS210 is a command station/booster combined. The DCS210 only comes as part of a starter set with throttle, panel, power supply. I suggest you go to the Digitrax website and explore the boosters and starter sets and what they include if that is what yo are looking for.

[@Wrathchildss]

Thank you Larry, I will check it out!

[@atw4321]

Added new command station and booster a digitrax 210 and 240 with a 602 throttle i ran the first two locos with no problem and then tried to get another one to work i put in address and throttle showes it is active but nothing happens its not the loco or track power or decoder checked all that i dont understand whats going on worked fine with the db150 command station but now it wont work has same problem tried old throttle same thing im stumped..only the two i first ran work no matter what loco i select i get nothing but the first two to run

[@TheDCCGuy]

Does it matter which locos in any order or is it always the same order?

[@allenbarnes7202]

How much track before you need a booster? My railroad has 150 ft mainline, but no staging yet. N scale flex track

[@TheDCCGuy]

Wait for it!

[@bobainsworth5057]

A other good video. I have a very old system digitrax. My booksays don't use earth ground. Then when I put in reversing loop cards( can't remember name), it said no. I since removed them. So you explained it very well and now I will check what I've finally done. I'm sure I have work to do.😁 Thanks again. I've always felt that the instructions supplied with electronics are too technical. We don't understand and or do't want to understand. Just tell us what to do and we're up and running. If we need to know more we can go to web site where they can explain . That's making the assumption that we could understand. Most people don't understand house electricity. 🙄

[@titodalessandro1909]

Can you show us how you ground your layout. If you do.

[@TheDCCGuy]

I do not ground mine. Depending on the system you may need to add a floating ground between some components. This is true for Digitrax and NCE systems.

[@dundasjunctionmodelr.r-jam8267]

Hi Larry can you use UP5 universal panel on NCE system,

[@TheDCCGuy]

No they are different systems and require different electronics.

[@Joe-td4pq]

Why do you operate at 14-14.5 track voltage? Whats the benefit or downsides to a higher or lower amount?

[@TheDCCGuy]

It’s pretty much been the standard range for HO for decades. I think the rationale us that analog DC is based on 12VDC. Uf you put 14-14.5V DCC on the track and expect to lose 1-1.5 volts through the diode bridge in the decoder then that brings you into a similar range. I do know folks who have set their boosters on the N-scale setting and operate at ~12VDC to keep speed demons in check.

[@railbuilderdhd]

I have an old DS50 and I’m about to wire a layout. Should I replace that with a new booster and use it as only a throttle? I’m not sure the Zephyr is even enough to power my layout on its own.

[@TheDCCGuy]

See my answer to your other question.

[@davidnoyes3373]

Can you use dcs210 as booster I have 2 of them?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I think it might be possible but I know in the manual they do not recommend it-not sure why, maybe Digitrax tech support can answer that one.

[@termaddict]

Larry, what do you think of the DCS 210+, that has a booster built in?

[@termaddict]

Also, some of the boosters I have seen listed from Digitrax offer auto-reversing function. Is this reliable? Or would you recommend an external module, like the PM-42?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I use a DCS240 on the Piedmont Southern and have a DCS210 for backup-they are great units. The DCS210+ comes with a built-in USB, something that was added after I got mine. Having the USB port built-in greatly simplifies connecting a computer with DecoderPro. Good choice!

[@TheDCCGuy]

Using the autoreversing feature on a booster is a waste of an expensive product and I recommend a stand alone unit such as those made by the Frog Juicer folks and NCE.

[@termaddict]

Thank You Larry, for the rapid response. Love the videos and information you provide. I have learned a lot from your videos and replay them for a better understanding of where I want to go on my layout. Awesome job on 14.8k subscribers! "Way to go!" -and I look forward to more "vids."

[@robertlogan46]

Ironically this video is exactly where I’m at on my layout, except I have a problem. My locomotives short out when crossing power districts. First, I’m running digitrax zephyr express dcs52 and a db210 booster. The layout is essentially broken in half. One powering each side. The rails are double gapped and each has its own buss wire. I already did the quarter test and got shorts. The locomotives run everywhere on the layout except the gaps. I ran a 14 gauge ground wire between them. I tried switching the A and B rails. I tested the loconet cable(all good). I’ve even tried the auto reverse switch on the db210 and I still get the short. I just keep getting the local booster track fault message and the locomotive completely shuts down until it gets a signal from either one and it starts back up. Is there something I’m missing? Piece of equipment? Getting to the point where I’m going to forget the booster and make the layout one big one of the zephyr. Thanks in advance.

[@TheDCCGuy]

I have heard of similar problems with the DB210 at a local club. They fussed with the setup and swapped the boosters around and surprisingly that fixed it. Digitrax eventually got back to them indicating that the firmware in the DB210 or the command station one needed updating to fix a software glitch. I suspect you have the same issue.

[@robertlogan46]

The DCC Guy Thanks for responding. I’m new to this and assume the updates are done by computer but I don’t have my system hooked up to the computer. I guess I have to connect the units to the computer right?

[@TheDCCGuy]

Yes, that is the way to go. You can use the usb interface built in to your DCS52 as the interface or find a local dealer or club or individual who will do it for you. It is an easy process once you get the computer interface hooked up. You just need to download the free software and firmware update the run the DigiIPL software. But I also suggest checking with Digitrax tech support first as they may have more on this issue. Also since the local club got theirs to work by simply swapping the blocks the boosters were powering you might give that a ry too. This seems to have something to do with how the unit responds to shorts and can be very sensitive to wiring.

[@robertlogan46]

The DCC Guy Ok I’ll try switching as well but I don’t have multiple boosters, just the zephyr and one booster if that matters. I’m hoping it’s a firmware update, because sometimes the locomotive will make it over the gap without shutting down, but I will still get the beeps and local booster track fault message. Seems like they’re fighting each other.

[@TheDCCGuy]

A other possbile issue might be if the track voltages for the booster and command station are not close to the same values. This can create issues so do a test after you watch my next video “Booster Finale”.

[@SOU6900]

The Southern Serves the South. 😉👍 Keep the green light shining.

[@tikkykopmostert5972]

so you should ground yourgigitrax system with your house ground?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I did not say that, I said Digitrax recommends it in their manual. I run a ground between all my Digitrax components but do not attach it to the household AC ground. If I ever see issues that might be related to static buildup then I may follow this recommendation however I will likely establish my own earth ground instead of using the AC ground. Due to liability issues I would never tell folks to do that, too great a chance they might stick a ground wire in a socket and get zapped. Read your manual and check their website for guidance.

[@1911Fauquier]

do most of the boosters and comand boxes come with 3 prong plugs.? if so, would that not solve the grounding issue?

[@TheDCCGuy]

Boosters and command stations are isolated from the main power connections. The power supplies are plugged into the wall outlets and they supply the DC power to the boosters and command stations.

[@georgehorne394]

Hi Larry.... watching your video on sodering and you used heat sink clips to use a higher heat temp and not damage the rails... tries the ALL America website but could not find them...any ideas? thanks.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Try the All Electronics website

[@georgehorne394]

@@TheDCCGuy Wasn't that helpful.... ended up at Micro Mark... they had good clips.. thanks PS fiind your videos to be very helpful..

[@TheDCCGuy]

I checked their catalog and they are no longer listed there either so I guess they have stopped carrying them or can’t get them right now. As an aside you can always use plain old alligator clips with the vinyl insulator sleeve removed.

[@farmerdave7965]

Don't forget that if you have more than one booster, the output voltages must match exactly and usually there is a trimpot adjustment to accomplish that, and they must be in phase with each other.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Dave-👍you just couldn’t wait for Friday’s video!

[@k4xtt]

Clear as mud to a newbee. Electrical schematics are a MUST if your going to talk about so many options and components that work together, then one might understand what your talking about. As it is it's mostly worthless. Sorry.