What Happens if the Economy Grows Forever

[@WisecrackEDU]

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[@MxIzmir]

Might wanna include a link to Johntheduncan's YT channel bc it's slightly different to his name

[@ACCPhil]

There is a quote from the late, great Kurt Vonnegut: “We'll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost-effective”

[@louisinese]

Goodness, that’s telling. 😅

[@Jehosh27]

Lol, rather optimistic of him that there'll be anyone left to record history.

[@littlebunse5]

​@@Jehosh27rather egotistical to assume the downfall of america is going to be the downfall of the entire world. Regardles of how awful things get, some people somewhere will survive.

[@Jehosh27]

@littlebunse5 Hell, I didn't even say a word about the USA. Name one country in the global north that's actually reversing the climate change dominoes that we see happening worldwide. The wealthiest, most economically developed countries in the world are responsible for the majority of greenhouse gas emissions. If the global north burns the way they have been, the global south will burn right along with them eventually. It's just a matter of time.

[@malcire]

​@littlebunse5 Depends on what he was referencing. If it was Climate. The US as one of the largest users will have a negative effect on most of the world (both because of our use and because most other larger users aren't curbing it enough to change overall effect to the planet). If he was talking about war, the US has been a super power since WWII and largely involved with large conflicts. So again it would effect large numbers of other nations.

[@Ford_prefect_42]

When the economy is more "who can get the new high score" and not "how can we make life better for everyone" we're fked.

[@dayegilharno4988]

Don't own, BE! Am I making myself sound like a gorram hippie... Or did it just take a little longer to come to the same conclusion 🤔

[@mico77720]

I always has been

[@lup1up]

@@dayegilharno4988 Firefly? Nice! Maybe it's an evolved hippy. Where you can smell a bit better, but still have that fulfillment. But is it possible to make it so the masses want that instead of the next shiny thing? Even we fail a time or two every day right? It's all around us, how do we resist or at least be better? For the masses, maybe it's just making it seem more normal so more are willing to try for less as well. IDK

[@No_Direct_Translation]

Sounds against human nature ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@slimybob7613]

What are you, a communist? Go to Jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

[@tokenninjasp]

Modeling an economy after cancer is actually fucking stupid, what a novel concept.

[@balsalmalberto8086]

I'm fucking surprised KZbin hasn't deleted your comment.

[@tokenninjasp]

@@balsalmalberto8086 It helps to direct the curses towards concepts and not people.

[@white0thunderwhite0thunder71]

People are a virus after all.

[@michaelpowers4961]

You can’t have infinite growth on a finite planet. It just doesn’t work.

[@WisecrackEDU]

right?

[@bingoberra18]

Well to an extent it does work, as long as we dont ship the stuff we have on earth into deep space. Almost everything we "consume" on earth stays on earth. And remember, you cannot remove energy from existance. Energy and materials just change places and compositions. Porsche is working hard on "carbon capture" to reverse what happens with fuel when you combust it in a car engine. It is being done right now and you can drive a car today with synthetic fuel. Sure, when you drive it, again you are emitting the carbons that were captured to produce the synthetic fuel. But this is the mentality we should have going forward. We dont have to produce less. But we must shift our mindset and production into what can be reversed, recycled and what can actually benefit the planet. The main issue of this is not "the market", "capitalism" or "big companies". The big problem is that we as humans are lazy, fat and sugar craving, dopamine addicts with a short lifespan that just want to "live a little". Life is short yall, we are not here tomorrow. Earth will be here and thriving long after humanity is gone, as long as the sun will shine, it will adapt and things will be fine. We might not adapt, but thats to no ones loss.

[@Alverant]

@@bingoberra18 You can't remove energy from existence, but you can make it unusable. The heat our electronics generate can't be captured and reused. Same with minerals. There's enough gold in the oceans to make all the electronics we need for the foreseeable future. The problem is getting it. Capitalism encourages consumption and that's what's killing us.

[@evanmarshall3487]

Look at the economic growth between the dark ages and now. You can't have "infinite growth" but you are fundamentally incapable of knowing the limits.

[@AnonymousAnarchist2]

​@@bingoberra18 Why.. would we be concerned with producing more? Yes sure in the massive population growth period from 1830-1970 yes. that makes sense. We are not there anymore. We need a focus on stable systems and durable products that last longer. We've already pushed the limits of whats possible for most land based technologies we have a bit to go for digital computing and we really need to figure out good ways for analog computing to interact with digital. But for earth we do not have a lot more to do in general unless we use the power of state, state sactioned ownership, and the money that comes with such to force everyone into making lower quality, or over complicated products that break and break down too early, use market shares to domiante food production supply chains when we massivly overproduce with less then 5% of the population being used, and use legal loopholes to leave millions of empty homes empty but not "vacant" while producing cheaper less durable homes in the process just to keep the "real-estate buisness" making more and more. At current we have everything we need to not work and thrive except the political will. Detach yourself from this idea of needing to work. Nobody needs to work at current. I am serious. Nobody needs to work. All the work we are doing is because other people worked hard to make more work for no reason. We have automated greenhouses and sewage to fertilizer plants. We have buulding materials and designs that can endure mutliple centuries if not thousands of years. We have bearings and batteries that could power your car for millienia. and these things.. often cost less, and take less effort then what we use today. We just have to undo the damge of an damaged mentality.

[@masonnapier1605]

Taking a philosophy class and immediately watching this after class

[@daemoneko]

Broke: Taking a philosophy class coz you're college says you gotta Woke: Taking a philosophy class so you can better understand Michael's Wokecrack videos

[@lexdgordon]

anti-capitalist and class consciousness building wisecrack is my favorite flavor of wisecrack. Presenting what is effectively a Marxist approach to our current system without using scary commie words is quite a skill.

[@roscojenkins7451]

I took, totally get the idea of calling each other comrade... But I still find it tacky. As well people hyper focused on red scare are instantly turned off by hearing it

[@skystarlit3713]

Marxism has just been maligned by their propaganda to keep people from looking at what it actually is. Google the term it's not actually scary. The association with the... Goose stepping people, is unfortunate, but does not define 100% of what it actually is. Just like socialism does not come in one flavor like most people think it does.

[@Basgerin]

@@roscojenkins7451 Those people will never change. They lock their positions in stone, unless of course their Dear Leader says or does otherwise. They aren't open to changing viewpoints or anything of the sort. They see "socialism", "marx", "comrade", etc and don't get the joke. They don't get that it's sarcasm. It's not like they actually want to talk about what a good economic/societal system would be, they've been forcefed "CAPITALIST CORPORATOCRACY GOOD" since birth, and they won't give it up. I would say to just wait for them to die, but unfortunately they're stripping our educational institutions as we speak so that our future children are as dumb and ignorant as they are.

[@kerwinbrown4180]

The USA already has an anticapitalist economic system. The government switched to it because capitalism isn't controlled. The current control model is Keynesian. The Keynesian is a socialist model and therefore doesn't consider wealth.

[@ericlindquist3271]

@@kerwinbrown4180yeah, we’re all feeling the windfall of wealth trickling down on us… haha you are either a bot, pathetic, or both.

[@andrekgerber]

As someone from the global south (South Africa), I must admit that I get angry at people from the global north not willing to scale back their consumption for the future of humanity. At the same time, I do acknowledge that this is a global crisis that we all must solve. I just wish we could all do our equitable part. For example, many people are installing solar panels on many houses in SA. But some people here just can’t afford it. Imagine a world where people earning comparatively much more than us, could shift to solar and electric. If WE can find a way to make it work, then I’m sure our friends in the global north can as well.

[@MrJohndoe845]

arguably the reason global north residents don’t adopt solar panels is largely because the price and reliability of energy provided by their national grids doesn’t support solar adoption.

[@bingoberra18]

If everyone adopts solar without a way to save the energy for later i.e. batteries (lithium mining is bad yall) its a bad idea. Everyone produces energy when we dont need it, and when we need it the sun is not there (Dark, Cold, Home for charging the electric car etc.) If you dont produce exactly the same amount of energy as is being consumed at that time, the frequency of the electric grid (50hz or 60hz) cannot be maintained. So you will have forced outages of areas just to keep the others going. That is why the bulk of your energy must be a base load that is always going no matter rain, wind or darkness. The only green way to solve this is nuclear power and water power (if you ruin a river by building a dam). Sure you can have some solar, wind etc. but you cannot depend on them.

[@jadenbird5883]

@@bingoberra18that’s not… That’s not how solar works. Australia is BIG on solar and we do not have nation wide blackouts. The energy companies cry because people are not using their power these days and keep jacking up the prices to compensate

[@AnonymousAnarchist2]

​​@@bingoberra18 Uranium mining is far worse. You could ask all my older sibilings about it, but they are dead from cancer. Lithium *should* only be mined as a side product of salt production, but aside from cars lithium is not an ideal energy storage method in any shape or form. The focus on lithium batteries is a tactic to prevent switching to anything. It is a tactic to keep all of us in fossil fuels precisely because Uranium mining causes such dramatic and cancerious, effects. There is NO safe uranium mining. NONE. Zip, zilch, zero mining the ores releases radion into the enviroment where it spreads gets into all food and water... The stuff must be mined off planet and we are not to space mining yet. The ideal grid storage means are actually flywheel, growing fuels, and electrolysis. The latter being more efficent then growing fuels with modern electrochemistry, and pyrochemistry. Flywheel energy storage is as space efficent as lithium ion. And electrolysis is not limited to splitting water into hydrogen, it can be used to produce aluminium metals as well.. and aluminum/air batteries are more stable and energy dense then Lithium Ion; but they must be dissassembled to recharge .

[@bingoberra18]

@@jadenbird5883 That is how it works. The Australian energy mix has just about 30% renewable energy. 70% of it is brown coal, black coal and natural gas. These fossile fuels can be burned at the rate they are needed which means they are plannable, solar is not. You would not be able to exchange that 70% fossile dependancy for niether water power (dams), solar or wind. You need to build a lot of nuclear power in order to have green energy. Solar panels is good in Australia now because when its daytime and they produce electricity, they ramp down the burn rate on the coal plants so yes it does help. But it only helps as long as the coal plants are still there to catch you when the solar does not deliver. With wind power you might get power during the night as well, but you still cannot demand more power than the wind allows, so yet again you need the coal plants to be ready to support. And you have to build as much power production potential as is peak power demand of the year even just the peak hour of the year. And how can you guarantee that on that specific point in time your renewables will be able to deliver? Nuclear is safe, its clean, and it is officially regarded as fossile free green energy. That is what we need a lot more of.

[@noahrenken3773]

“What if we use a drill on the drills?” A parody of only good guy with guns can stop bad guys with guns.

[@Northwest360]

Degrowth, post work, solarpunk, these are all visions of a potential future that focuses on people over growth. If we move in that direction, it’s a huge win for the world

[@gljames24]

Mutualism and worker cooperatives would be great to add too. We need to decommodify capital and decommodify the commons.

[@ubik5453]

Hello, my anarchist comrades!

[@wilberwhateley7569]

It looks like we are headed for cyberpunk - not solarpunk…

[@ubik5453]

Oh @wilberwhateley7569 ,always the pessimist.

[@white0thunderwhite0thunder71]

Never gonna happen.

[@iwatchyoutube523]

Let's just keep digging our way out of this hole we dug. If we keep digging, eventually we'll be digging up at some point. Right?

[@HK47_115]

This reminds me of some dialogue from an episode of The Simpsons where they went on some weird treasure hunts. Don't remember the episode too much but I remember this ending so damn well *After homer, chief wiggums and a crew dug a hole what seems like a 100ft deep* Larry: How do we get out? Homer: We'll dog our way out!! Chief Wiggums: No, no, dig up! Stupid!😂

[@white0thunderwhite0thunder71]

Society as a whole.

[@shelbyhornback6615]

I'm currently reading Saito's 'Slow Down: The Degrowth Manifesto' so this video was well timed!

[@WisecrackEDU]

very very interesting book.

[@stoodmuffinpersonal3144]

Working at fast food places and throwing away perfectly edible, not sold food, made me so livid. Lol

[@LeninMcDonalds]

I propose we mobilize the teenage demographic by marketing degrowth as D-growth.

[@balsalmalberto8086]

Becoming a eunuch is the ultimate end game alpha male.

[@H1Caliber]

In all seriousness, I think that’s genius idea. You have to meet people where they are

[@emanym]

😂

[@rosifico]

What is a follower of D-growth called? Socialism has socialists. Capitalism has capitalists. D-growth has…?

[@xanderjames8682]

😏

[@chasehatchett4756]

i can visualize Dick Van Dyke tapdancing down the road with fires burning behind him 😂

[@roscojenkins7451]

I'm SIIIIIINGING IN THE- OOOOOH GODDDD!!!!

[@PalmelaHanderson]

When I hear the phrase "drill, baby, drill," I get irrationally angry. Energy companies already have tons of land that they have the rights to drill on - they choose not to. Why? Because THEY DON'T WANT OIL/GAS TO BE CHEAP. Gas at the pump could be $1/gallon tomorrow if the government enacted a "use it or lose it" policy - ie "if you don't start drilling operations in this area you have the rights to within 2 years, you lose the rights and don't get your money back," the price of gas would plummet. Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that's a good idea, because I like the planet. I don't want more drilling for oil. Just saying, the reason it costs so much to fill up your car has nothing to do with a lacking of drilling rights. It has nothing to do with Biden, either. Or Trump. It's corporate greed.

[@TStark-vj2wo]

Exactly. I was making 'your', this, point to a Trumper-'he'll make gas cheap' earlier this week. It kills me that the oil companies, with their billions and billions don't dive head first into developing renewables to 'capture' that market. They are energy companies - do all the energies. This could be applied, sort of, to Trump. He wants 'merica to be the world's top-dog energy provider (and to beat Jina in tech development) so support green tech as well - support it all. Yes, like you, liking the planet, would prefer that the tech/human energy go into pushing green tech, than drilling more.

[@bingoberra18]

Well US has really cheap gas compared to Europe. Thats why most americans drive huge trucks. Europe have been driving small cars as standard since forever. They consume less, because we cannot afford to spend as much gas as americans do. Because of that we also drive less. All in all that means we produce less harmful gases to the atmosphere. If they dumped fuel prices, everyone would be driving big V8 trucks.

[@SaintGGod]

How did you manage to say absolutely zero truths ​@@bingoberra18

[@Wrappedinhair]

It's not irrational, baby. You should be mad. It would be irrational not to be.

[@cedaremberr]

​@@bingoberra18 my understanding is that fuel is expensive in Europe because yall actually tax it. Here in the US, California has the highest gas taxes, and even our rates are a fraction of Europe's.

[@cloudcyclone]

if companies were ethical instead of greedy, putting the betterment of humanity overall above anything else, we would be just fine. actually we would be SO MUCH better off. im fine with radical change because infinite growth is a lie built on debt and its not possible, or needed. time to finally ethical about what we do.

[@lup1up]

I mean, I agree on an ideological level. But in reality, companies are made of people. We're supposed to be able to influence its direction. Same as us within our government. But it seems to never work, or the majority have the mentality of "oh it's hopeless, so why bother". How do we get people to BOTHER if it's for the collective better, no matter the chances?

[@cloudcyclone]

@@lup1up when our leadership at work disagrees with other leadership, someone always get fired or moved to a new team. its pathetic. no discourse.

[@lup1up]

@cloudcyclone totally have seen the same in my past. Big reason why I left the last spot. Current one feels much less toxic in that manner, but still relatively new. Think the next generation will be more aware and conscious of these things, but 1) it'll take time for them to age into authority, and 2) they will still have bad apples. We can hope and strive, but I also expect we won't have the dream in our lifetime

[@MichaelDude12345]

Yeah but how's that going for us? People with money buy power and influence. It is the easiest for them to skirt the rules because of that. This system is not sustainable not only due to the things laid out in this video, but also because there will be no accountability for "bad companies" and the incentives for "good companies" will never be enough in a growth based economy. You just end up with half measures. For a good example of this look at the carbon capture scam, or look at the ways that companies abuse carbon credits.

[@H1Caliber]

If we cared about ethics, America would not exist

[@T_Dot94]

I love that saving the planet would lead to a more leisure life.

[@white0thunderwhite0thunder71]

Which is why the people destroying the planet for profit would never let that happen. They believe only THEY deserve a leisurely life.

[@TheRealmDrifter]

*_consumerism accelerates even faster_*

[@ballman2010]

2:50 Saw this promotion coming from so far away I was able to sell my beachfront home before it was submerged by rising oceans

[@pb_and_nutella]

This is what happens when nothing is ever enough, people and governments just want more, more, more with no regard for the impact on the environment or other people

[@bazzfromthebackground3696]

Love the satire comic I saw bout a week back of a board room chair looking out over the fire spreading all around them and saying _"We need to monetize this, and quickly."_

[@isaac1670]

I think we need to admit that the field of economics is becoming less about understanding the relationship between people and their resources, but rather has become a religious worldview that sees the growth of "the economy" as a righteous good. There's little room for intervention with that kind of mindset.

[@bensmith5262]

Fellow human, it was always that.

[@isaac1670]

@bensmith5262 Thank you, friend. I do think economics has the potential to be a respected field of study, but as it exists, it's as useful as a hole in the head.

[@AnonymousAnarchist2]

​@@isaac1670Aye. It is about as usefull as a hole in the head indeed. Mathmatictions and engineers have a long history of working together and fixing up the messes made by economists. .... By just following da math and da need, engineering analog computers to model them and nothing else. Because in the end its all very simple, as each unit of currency gets used it becomes more valueable. There are more then one types of currency, theres social, politcal, credit, debt, stocks etc. Thats. really.. all of it. everything else is scenarios econ majors made up in thier head that start with "what if we ignore that people are using this and then..."

[@merlin5662]

@@isaac1670 here is something you may not know, economics used to be called "politcal economics" where it was focused more on the "political" where the focus was on how politics influence economics and what not. robert riech did a video doing a deep dive into this shift.

[@isaac1670]

@@merlin5662 Interesting. I'll have to check it out.

[@HansHorst-fu2il]

just reading this book by french energy historian Jean Baptiste Fressoz: More and more and more. Veeery interesting, centers around the fact that we use relative measures for the energy mix, so fossil fuels seem to decline but in absolute terms, it's always still growth. Materially, decoupling or transition is a fever dream

[@Bartholomule01]

Increasing our oil production is record breaking because our current oil production is already record breaking.

[@Earwithfoot]

You know how you have bad habits? You wanna stop, but stopping is hard. That’s what’s happening on a societal level. I’m doubtful that’ll ever change.

[@potapotapotapotapotapota]

"Be fruitful and multiply" but don't destroy the planet in the process.

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

FOR THE ALGORITHM 🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤

[@ChaelaThompson]

It is baffling that people believe constant growth is even something achievable let alone something we should want... What's wrong with businesses going "I'm ok with this level, it doesn't need to get bigger" It's so unsustainable and obnoxious. When the climate goes that's all businesses done for, when trillionaires have absorbed all the money the money will be worth nothing. Having billions is basically worthless as it just sits in accounts and investment portfolios not really doing anything. We should be happier with less, but we shouldn't have to struggle either, enough waste is produced to feed and cloth everyone. I don't understand what future world leaders want... But it is bs whatever it is if it means constant consumerism and attacking marginalised peoples

[@bobbydigital8056]

The planet dies.

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

Wisecrack always makes great videos😊😊😊

[@robbieskids9159]

What happens if we outlaw advertisements as a way to stop consumerism?

[@summertime69]

Most countries outlaw ads for pharmaceuticals.

[@michaeljebbett160]

"Degrowth" isn't a term that instills confidence in the public. Sounds like a very negative thing, regardless of what it actually is

[@OLD.GREASE]

Daddy Michael put on his serious face for this one.

[@x-i-am-jinx]

4:35 It’s cancer. The way a PET/CT scan finds cancer is the elevated metabolism of sugar in cancer cells. Exponential growth in economics is the same as watching cancer grow.

[@ThePipemiker]

Never underestimate the power of the dark side - I mean the status quo. We wouldn't be the first culture that faced an ecological disaster and stubbornly refused to change their traditional ways of living and eventually collapsed. At least that's what Jared Diamond observed.

[@paawansagar8269]

I personally believe the word choice for “Degrowth” is a bad angle. If it had a different name, corporations might be more open to the idea alongside subsidies for them in switching to greener ethics.

[@Mechgineer]

Person who’s taken thermal dynamics can tell you that, without a global shift to some extremely efficient and powerful green energy like nuclear, there is no hope in reversing the global climate crisis.

[@mcnuffin1208]

Surely, we can just vent the hotter parts of the atmosphere into the vacuum of space to cool us off, right?

[@smithpcw]

@@mcnuffin1208 Wait what? Not a scientist, but thinning out our atmosphere seems like a terrible idea if you like breathing

[@SageWon-1aussie]

Made sense until you said "like nuclear". Then it became obvious that you just want to be the new oil barons.

[@mcnuffin1208]

@smithpcw just a joke lol it would be a monumentally stupid idea

[@Silvertip_M]

The problem with degrowth is that it's a solution which has to delivered from the top down. Government and billionaires have to effectively agree on the solution...and the reality is that the group which will feel the pain is by extension everyone who isn't them. Realistically, it's far more feasible for people to adopt a local and sustainable mindset...to buy clothing from a tailor rather than a chain, to buy furniture from a local craftsperson...and to insist on local production and sourcing as much as possible. This is far more likely to drive the change we need, and while it's still hard to imagine, it's infinitely more likely than imagining a billionaire asking to give up power and make less money.

[@Mr.Buttons928]

Relying on individual action is a lie we tell ourselves because we think our choices matter. It hasn’t worked for recycling, producing food or anything else it just diffuses responsibility and therefore will always lose to convenience. Top down is realistically the only way to create change at scale quickly I hope you can see that.

[@Silvertip_M]

​@@Mr.Buttons928 It's all individual action though. What is more likely? The individual action of politicians, business people and those who profit most from the status quo coming together for change...or communities of those most impacted by the direct impacts and least incentivized by the status quo? Recycling outside of recycling of metals and limited plastics is actually not "green". But it's an initiative sold by the rich to appear like they're doing something. Food production has been centralizing for decades, through consolidation and price controls. So what you're actually pointing to are top-down approaches, not community based ones...you're making the opposite point you think you are.

[@SageWon-1aussie]

​@@Mr.Buttons928I think your expectations about it happening "quickly" might be blinding you to feasibility.

[@neverendingparty2060]

Hey guys, thank you for doing the good work this channel really adopted me as a kid I was into philosophy and I am happy I found this channel

[@WolfCrestFellen]

I appreciate this video a great deal because you synthesized so much information and so many arguments quickly into something comprehensible/informative. "De-growth" to me looks like once we figure out something isn't working stop doing it AND remove it from discourse. This video does that for me, dismissing the things we obviously don't need and emphasizing the need for a flexible, creative, and solution-oriented mindset going forward.

[@ghintz2156]

This was a fabulous video. I love Wisecrack because I'm desperate to hear ideas on my wavelength...but it depressed me to realize how disconnected this educated humanistic realm of thinking is so disconnected from most modern American thinking.

[@bdhanes]

This.

[@colonelweird]

When I was a kid, the big book on this subject that everyone read was E. F. Schumacher's Small Is Beautiful. It would be interesting to see how these ideas have changed over the years. I certainly have the impression that we're no longer as afraid of Marx as we used to be.

[@FinalB055]

It starts with you. If you don’t believe things can change for the better they won’t, and the people around will struggle to believe it to

[@persephone210]

This is why I get why some people have given up, it's all too much and we're in a pretty bad place right now... BUT it's exactly the wrong conclusion to come to. Take a break, only engage with what you can without burning out, but just giving up is absolutely not an option. It is never too late to do better, change is anyways possible even when it's incredibly difficult. If we stop believing that, then we really are fucked.

[@theconversationalpainter2020]

What if you wanted to go skiing? Or you really wanted to travel to Europe? I live in Australia where both things are very expensive, I have not been to Europe but used to go skiing with my parents. Are these things now just off the table? Or would there be a lottery system to determine who gets to do these things? Other than just the rich people at the moment.

[@mikeol1985]

Right now non-alcoholic beer, weed, and my dog have been keeping my life together!!!😂

[@PRMBACN]

I go to a therapy group and we talked about how many people use purchasing stuff as a way of dealing with their stress. Could not help but think about all the climate change stress that may be leading people to buy more junk to make the suffering more tolerable. Its honestly frightening and I am cautiously optimistic we will manage to get ourselves out of this situation.

[@ericchen122]

Putting my comment here to boost the algorithm.

[@alphaomega1351]

The entire finance capitalism system is flawed. Yet, every minute, all you hear is growth, growth, and grow some more. 🤓

[@dirtybirdsf]

Do you remember, during the pandemic, when the water and air all around the world become clean again?

[@furiousTjr]

I agree, but feel powerless to effect the necessary change.

[@riverofpower5659]

Thanks so much for this! I only had a vague concept of what degrowth actually entails when I started this video but now I have a much better way of visualizing what degrowth could really look like and how such a shift in our way of thinking about society could bring about a better world for everyone. It’s genuinely hopeful!

[@Lhorez]

Remember when "Live within your means" was good and sufficient financial advice? Once that broke then things started to go really wrong.

[@jester3443]

Money should not be the thing our lives revolve around. A bunch of rich assholes have conviced so many that money matters more then life and god. Its insane.

[@quankruger]

thanks for making this video guys. definitely a good watch

[@trevorhannan5113]

Awesome vid! Props to John and Michael and the team as always!

[@WisecrackEDU]

Working with John always a pleasure.

[@SimGunther]

That means fewer and fewer people can actually live and more wealth is concentrated in fewer hands

[@ryuuseiferretSP]

8:14 Back when I had hair it got lighter towards the ends so I would occasionally be asked: "Why do I have frosted tips?"… the trend was over when I was in highschool so I looked way off 😅.

[@bryantgrove6199]

10:15 To be fair to Americans, both of those countries have populations greater than 1,000,000,000. So in a bad situation, I think it evens itself out.

[@f.j.n.9215]

That’s being overly fair. The US has a third of Indias population not 1/35th

[@bryantgrove6199]

@ ok good point

[@andrewwatson4896]

Even if those numbers were comparable, why would it be fair to have one group who enjoys 35x as many resources, but is 1/35 the size of the other? That's just the definition of inequality.

[@bryantgrove6199]

@@andrewwatson4896 The comment came out as more serious than I intended.

[@jeffedwards7960]

But how will I maintain a sense of identity if I can't eternally fill my place with useless junk I'm probably never going to use?

[@NoNotThatPaul]

Every time you say "abundance", I think of Furiosa

[@emanym]

We must be afraid to say to all peoples, “No overbreeding! Stop, or you will be stopped 😮”

[@ImmortalLemon]

I believe we can fix everything. We 100% have the ability to change ourselves as societies, change our outlooks on things, be better, do better, and work together to reverse climate change and live still comfortable lives But I don’t think that’s actually how it’s gonna happen

[@painoftheheart12]

Oh hey, it's the thing I've been saying for 3 years now Been trying to argue how economic hedgetrimming would solve, like, all of the problems.

[@jackgude3969]

This whole thing is super reminiscent of a paper I wrote for an intro speech class like 4 years ago. I even referenced to the late, great David Graeber.

[@ArmyofOneandaHalf]

Oh shit! John Duncan is the bomb!

[@WisecrackEDU]

right???

[@claireogden9440]

Thank you for doing this video!

[@vroitwyrd]

Have you covered the concept of circular economies? I have been looking to expand my understanding of such.

[@MoltenPlastic]

Degrowth ain’t that bad when you realise that actually, all this incredible growth hasn’t made me one cent richer anyway

[@hugh261]

We think our stuff just grows in value. We don't stop to think that what we buy stuff with is just declining in value. Ownership of the assets is a brutal game to take value from those who create it and to force them to create.

[@Grimmance]

The idea that the economy "can't grow forever" is based on 2 thoughts that are both technically incorrect. Thought 1, we have a finite number of resources, both material/energistic, and human, this is false, we have access to (at least unless we find aliens) an entire universes worth of resources, and artificial/actual scarcity is the biggest driver of birthrates and theor declines. And 2, that once we reach space and its resources we would allow our economy to be tanked by the surplus that a single asteroid would bring instead of using that to massively grow our economic boundaries. Diamonds aren't particularly scarce nor is fossil fuels, and yet the economy/owners of those resources have worked to meter out those resouces in a way that is economically viable for them. Same can be said for food based/energy based resources in the first world. The litteral only thing that will "destroy the economy" now is a co certed effort to burn it to the ground and replace it with something else that will for all intents and purposes be "the new economy" because guess what? No one likes to work for free, be it cash barter or Kudos we all want something in recognition of the effort we put out. Even Gene "he who is sainted in scifi" roddenbury understood that, just because we can become "post scarcity" we will never be fully "post want" even if those wants are super easily fulfilled.

[@merlin5662]

you omit several things : 1) we are a type 0.7 civilization meaning we don't have total and complete control of our resources and materials. until we've mastered this we won't be able to achieve outspace exploration for new resources and materials. 2) while you are right that the universe is abundant with resources we don't have the technology to realistically gather these materials so yes for the time being things can't grow forever 'unless' we go to the effort to make it possible. 3) space exploration has been scaled back since the 70s and every year institutions like NASA are scaled back budget wise or outsourced to companies like spaceX. other countries like china or india are becoming more interested in space exploration but it may be too late.

[@TheHiddenite]

that bullet didn't just miss it's just made him go more insane in 00.02 seconds

[@veryirishdude]

Michael shout out to you and John Duncan for continuing to put out great video essays that hopefully don't get you totally fired. Need to protect that raw dome from harm

[@AnnPorkins]

Lovey video. I feel like the script must have been extra crisp, and Michael brought his usual “charming lil guy” energy. I’d give this video 5 Slops on the Slopometer

[@matthewmcneany]

As a disaffected physics grad who might've become a climate scientist I'm not in the 'I'll just go sell stocks' school of though, I'm more in the 'this system of governance clearly isn't working we need to overthrow the whole damn system to fix this issue' school.

[@cedaremberr]

Cohousing and cooperative housing. We dont need this much private space, we definitely dont need as many bathrooms, kitchens, and private cars

[@Ford_prefect_42]

11:37 i can't breathe 🤣

[@Maxrepfitgm]

On top of the city 😂

[@gen_li7725]

Degrowth is one of the socioeconomic theories that first piqued my interest and started to pull me into leftism. Endless growth on a finite planet (as other commenters have said) just inherently doesn’t make sense, and degrowth was the first thing I had encountered that really takes that issue on. I hope we could one day work towards a better world for us and the planet. But I don’t think i will live to see it

[@LiiMuRi]

This is the society I dream of. But it's so hard to reach in the modern individualistic, capitalistic mindset

[@alexschrijnemaekers8067]

Remember that taking action doesn't have to mean anything grand or extraordinary. Be kind to your own, check on your friends and family. Help your neighboour. Help yourself. A community starts small, but it does need 'U'

[@cricketlowrey1927]

But if we don't grow the economy... And our economic activities become more efficient... Then we won't need as many people to work for as many hours... Then we won't be able to regulate access to resources behind a labor checkpoint... And we might have to just start giving people food/water/necessities even in the aren't working??? What, just because we have enough to do so??? Egads, the moral decline!

[@cloudcyclone]

yes, the ethical human thing to do is actually not to do jobs that waste and do more harm than good, so pointless jobs never should exist, which is the correct thing to do. We build a fake system of oppression for our society and thats the only reason fake jobs exist. youll notice, poor nations have VERY FEW pointless jobs vs rich nations.

[@slayerat5280]

Love your videos.

[@jackgude3969]

I always knew Michael was secretly a Malthusian...

[@iamstannie]

20 hour work week sounds great but I can bet that the majority of people would just find a way to work 40 hrs a week, unfortunately its socially embedded in us. I can feel how most of us will get anxious from all the available free time and we wont know what to do with it.

[@hbeachley]

I mean we all saw The Lorax, some of us believed it, or came through believe it, and some people just don’t or won’t.

[@alexrempel12390]

I think the term 'Degrowth' was a horrible choice given it's objectives. I think a single term to describe managed/sustainable human development is needed, but 'degrowth' just doesn't, IMHO, convey the idea properly.

[@SageWon-1aussie]

Efficient? Just-in-time? Waste free?

[@thedripkingofangmar6778]

Civilizational vasectomy? Human stagnation?

[@kathrynehiersche1817]

this makes me sad

[@yoursubconscious]

anyone born in the late 70's and 80's, I respect you if you are still sane. I have very few brain cells that are keeping me sane.

[@Poisonfrogg]

I think the biggest hurdle to this will be to stop the middle class will rise again movement before it starts

[@Ardamass]

De-growth is solarpunk as fuck hell ya

[@duncansmith1069]

Everyone should read slow down by Kohei Saito

[@WisecrackEDU]

it's a good book!

[@TheAllSeeingEye2468]

No one wins

[@jemiller226]

The thing is, it's not just an issue of knowing we need to do this. Lots of us know this isn't sustainable, but as it's been in so many areas of life, a certain generation of us that seems to get forgotten all the time has been told to wait our turn wait our turn wait our turn. Now the youngest of us is in our mid-40s and what has waiting our turn gotten us? Fuck all, that's what. We're never going to be able to retire. We're never going to be able to live comfortably. And we're old enough now that starting all over to live as self-sufficiently as we can (or as entrepreneurial as we can, hello Gen Z) is incredibly difficult. So, what, fuck us, I guess?

[@JChaos1120]

The classes I took for my associate's in business admin said permanent growth was unrealistic and harmful, and that was like 20 years ago. What happened?

[@SageWon-1aussie]

The same issue that's driving the "AI" boom. The "If we don't do it then someone else will, and that means they'll have the better score." argument.

[@deadbeatSad]

Hey Wisecrack. Just here to say I appreciate you and your work over the years, I'm a very big longtime fan. But this kinda content and energy is what I'm trying to expel from my life these days. I'm afraid I'm gonna have to unfollow, at least for a while. But I hope you keep this work going for others, there needs to be more like it. Take care and keep up the great work

[@WisecrackEDU]

Have a good one and thanks for the support, and no judgement in trying to cultivate positive energy in your life.

[@bravojr]

You are the product, the Victim, and the Servant.

[@mrmacken]

Asking people to spend less and live within their means is what lost Carter his reelection

[@whee38]

Remember that averages include billionaires and their multiple private jets, megayaghts, and megamansions

[@TennesseeJed]

I'm pretty sure we'll go to Net-Zero soon, after we starve to death.

[@supinearcanum]

"The capitalist economy will eventually fix the very problems it caused if we just give them more time" is the same as saying, "The alcoholic will eventually stop drinking if we just keep giving him more booze and power" Do not give the addicts to capitalism more power and no guardrails or boundaries and expect them to act differently.

[@BrickGriff]

We have to call it "de-waste". Mark my words.