Witch Bolt and Chaos Bolt suck in Dnd 5e!

[@PackTactics]

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[@Fargaze]

Very cool seeing the World Anvil site I'm a 5e mechanics writer for in one of your videos. 4:50

[@Xman1020]

Witch bolt can be decent if you have one large target and someone to grapple them. But that is very situational

[@sleepyspartan1367]

Honestly, if you take away the fact it takes your action to maintain and left as concentration then witch bolt would be pretty good. Hit them once then layer on other spells

[@salvadormartinez9257]

Noticed this when I played a Wild Magic Sorcerer and went with Chaos Bolt for the flavor. Did get it to pop off once when it 'bounced' to two additional targets. Honestly, the feeling of burning, zapping, and melting three goblins at level two made it so worth it.

[@1047josh]

yeah this is definitely a case of its not optimal but sometimes FEELING powerful is more important especially that flavor of how the spell looks.

[@SammaelVanir]

Yes super cool spell, but It also should be a stronger spell

[@MrAwesomeTheAwesome]

@@weebjeez It would be a lot better upcasted if it worked that way. Unfortunately, higher slot levels actually increase the extra d6's damage, rather than providing additional d8s. It's strange they decided to go that way, because... if it worked the other way, giving extra d8's, it would just turn into a pretty decent AoE spell at higher levels, competitive with other spells of that level.

[@tomraineofmagigor3499]

I played it and one time got the wild magic surge to maximize the damage of the next spell. Bouncing the spell is still part of the same casting. It was no longer chaos bolt but thunder bolt bouncing as long as I hit Btw there's 2 things you can do to optimize the spell. If you take the Izzet background then you can make it an artificer spell. Forgot the name of the subclass right now but at level 5 you can add 1D8 to the damage of the spell then go Elf for Elven accuracy looking to crit fish. On normal castings of the spell you now have 1 additional die to look for a double but on crits you have 6 dice to look for a double with

[@MrAwesomeTheAwesome]

@@tomraineofmagigor3499 Aha! I like that! Probably have to run the Artillerist Artificer bit by the DM to justify that the extra d8 counts for bounce purposes (but it doesn't exactly make the spell overpowered if it works that way, so I imagine most reasonable DMs would okay it!) Good find! Sounds like a fun build!

[@byrongsmith]

"But Kobold, what about monsters that are vulnerable to lightning damage? Wouldn't Witch Bolt be ideal for those cases?" It would Gator, if any such monsters existed. However, in the Monster Manual, Volo's Guide to Monsters, Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes and even MPMM the total number of creatures with a vulnerability to lightning damage is... zero. Yes, that's right, zero. There are two creatures found in particular official campaigns, but other than that, nada.

[@dragonboyjgh]

what if you have an allied shambling mound to hit with it? is it optimal in that case? XD

[@swimmingmide]

@@dragonboyjgh A flesh Golem might work better. They do the same DPS, have more speed, and are a lot tankier. The golems have a slightly better stat spread but no modifier differences. Plus there is an actual in game method of making them, it is expensive though.

[@RakfordYT]

I'm a noob so i was recommending my wizard gf to get witch bolt in case an enemy is weak to lightning lmao

[@braydenchadwick9836]

But there’s so many water creatures.. it’s so easy..

[@colinsmith1495]

D&D is really lacking in the vulnerability department as a whole. The whole elemental game in D&D is much more about avoiding resistances than taking advantage of weaknesses. It's a real lack.

[@joshuatran1556]

Witch bolt is really simple to fix: Scale the after damage on upcast and don't end the spell when the tether breaks. Allow the caster to re-attempt the tether with another spell attack so long as they maintain concentration. Imogen from CR3 had a fairly good use of witch bolt at lower levels by twinning it, which is a better form of upcast.

[@zaecus]

IIRC, one of the targets she hit with witch bolt burrowed and should have broken the spell, but instead, her connection through the spell was used to allow them to know where the burrowing creature with full cover was going.

[@dashyburd]

Twinning Witch Bolt is pretty genius actually... Greater chances of hitting _A_ creature and free 2d12 damage as an action if you hit both! Maybe even more if you upcast it!

[@bskec2177]

@@dashyburd A Draconic sorcerer with twinned spell and distant spell can get some better mileage out of witch bolt than other classes, but even with that boost, it's really not very good, and your spending too many resources to make a bad spell barely usable.

[@scrumpors8706]

@@MrBottlecapBill Critical role is truly the exception when it comes to party balance. When you're rocking 7 players you have way more wiggle room in terms of character building.

[@Ahglock]

Twinning a bad spell to make it decent seems like a worse idea than twinning a decent spell to make it good. Like while still not a good spell a twinned chromatic orb would seem better to me.

[@Darvyak_IX]

BUT KOBOLD!! You forgot that chaos bolt can crit which increases the chances to roll the same number on two of the d8's

[@makaramuss]

Hmm nice point but I dont think it will worth it 😂

[@theuncalledfor]

No it doesn't. For a crit, the result of the dice roll is doubled.

[@Darvyak_IX]

@@theuncalledfor no the amount of damage die is doubled

[@tylerian4648]

​@@Darvyak_IX Both are valid and it's generally up to the DM's discretion.

[@tomm35]

@@theuncalledfor No, you roll twice the dice for a crit - 1d4 becomes 2d4, for example. Doubling the sum total of the roll on a crit is homebrew, very commonly used, but homebrew nonetheless.

[@chrisanderson2368]

I love how gator just freezes and slowly slides off screen when his part is over.

[@johngleeman8347]

The slide of shame.

[@TrashJack3000]

I have found an interesting niche use for Chaos Bolt: pick it up as a wizard spell via the Izzet Engineer background from the Ravnica sourcebook (which adds it to your spell list), then go with the Order of Scribes subclass. You now have a 1st-level spell to poach several damage types from, though it's only for L1 spells and you'll probably stick with force damage from Magic Missile anyway, but it's good for auto-hitting vulnerabilities with damage-type-swapped Magic Missiles.

[@wrocksum]

Couldn't you just use Chromatic Orb for this?

[@kingdeath7647]

@@wrocksum absolutely and it does more damage top

[@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece]

@@kingdeath7647 But it's way more random. So I think shifted missiles are still useful

[@kingdeath7647]

@@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece not really since you have to hit again before doing damage

[@TrashJack3000]

@@wrocksum Just took a look at both spells. For most damage types, you could indeed just take Chromatic Orb for this (and in hindsight, you should just go for that unless you're in a Ravnican campaign and want to go for the Izzet League). But Chromatic Orb is missing Force (which Magic Missile [and Jim's Magic Missile from the Acquisitions Incorporated sourcebook] also has at this level, hence why I made that part of the game plan earlier) and Psychic (there are no other Psychic damage spells available to wizards at this level), both of which Chaos Bolt has. So, still a niche use (you could conceivably find yourself up against something that has vulnerability to Psychic, like a Flumph [a mad scientist from the Izzet League might just be chaotic enough to pick a fight with THE nicest kind of aberration], or a 3rd-party or homebrewed monster), but considerably less interesting than I thought it was now that I've compared the two. Not really worth going out of your way to do a Ravnican campaign for, but a nice little goodie to have if you're in one.

[@AuraSight24]

As someone who often uses Guiding Bolt and really enjoys the spell, I would definitely be interested in hearing you break it down!

[@GradeAMolvanian]

Baring other sources of advantage, and it being the only way to say, proc sneak attack or other niche situations like that, you can add ~25-50% of the next attacks damage (depending on how hard the target is to hit) to your damage calculations. Unless fired at a super low AC target, then it can get down to ~5%. If an average swing does ~15 damage from your party (Assuming a sort of mid level, mid gear group), you can easily assume Guiding Bolt does an extra 5 damage above its base stats (Modified by chance to hit with the guiding bolt). This is ignoring crit chance, which is also doubled, but only a real concern for Paladins or Rogues. Or the rare Hexblade. Or maybe a high dice attack roll based spell.

[@d_camara]

It's decent before using a high level attack roll spell if you have no other source of advantage ig

[@rafaelbordoni516]

I think the main gist of it is the same thing of all of those save or suck spells. You spend your spell slot and if you hit, cool, if you don't, nothing happens and you wasted your action and spell slot for nothing. It's okay on the early levels but by level 3 I think most martials will be on par with that damage spending little to no resources. If they're optimizers with a halberd or hand crossbow, they will probably have that beat at level 1 already.

[@lilith1073]

I've viewed guiding bolt as one of the best spells for awhile so I'd be interested in hearing why it ain't that good

[@rafaelbordoni516]

@@MrBottlecapBill I'm the forever DM, unfortunately. And unfortunately for my players, I've been super lucky with my dice, lmao. But yeah, I agree with you. The few times I played a wizard I focused on support and just like you I tried to remove the dice from the equation as much as I could. There was this time I spent my actions just using dodge so I could better protect my concentration. I think I was 8th level and honestly it was better than casting cantrips.

[@Specter053]

Chaos Bolt may suck, but it's one of the most fun spells you got. Let RNJesus take the wheel and, if he smiles upon you, you can hit two or even three targets. Sometimes you don't need to optimize. You just need to make funny things go brrr.

[@LeRodz]

That's the spirit.

[@ghostbonepunk1683]

I agree, I love this spell

[@Saber9933]

Reasons why chaos bolt doesn't suck: -I used its html template in foundry as the template table for all my other journal entries that used a table Thanks chaos bolt

[@kevingriffith6011]

I'm surprised you didn't mention three critical flaws in witch bolt: First: Concentration, there are so many better things to concentrate on than persistent damage from witch bolt. Second: Line of Sight and range. Typically having a line of sight restriction isn't that big of a deal, but in the case of witch bolt you have to maintain your line of sight over several turns, which can seriously restrict the way you can move around the field and protect yourself... and the 30 foot range requirement is just brutal, since it basically guarantees the target can get to you on their turn, or move away from you to break the tether. Third: Most combats have more than one creature in them, and the odds of a single target surviving for the full 4 turns of combat is slim, especially if you're prioritizing them with witch bolt. To maximize the value of Witch Bolt you basically have to ignore target priority and convince your party to not focus fire on the guy you hit with witch bolt.

[@SIZModig]

Isn't Witch Bolt better in melee once you've fired it then? Assuming you're multiclassing or something.

[@jrg305]

In our game, the dm plays with strong penalties for ranged characters. Melee around a monster means we can hit the melee with bad rolls. Witch bolt is excellent because you just need to hit once and then get good guaranteed damage

[@kevingriffith6011]

@@SIZModig It really depends on your target. The concentration aspect *really* hurts, and if you're high enough level to multiclass then chances are your cantrips will do better damage than it by that level. Compare it to Shocking Grasp at 5th level for example.

[@MrJerks93]

Witchbolt is very circumstantial. Just a few tweaks and it could be great spell. Option 1: If your target moves out of range or dies allow the caster to attempt to hit a new target within range. Option 2: Make it a line effect that hits everything between the caster and the target with the secondary damage. This could be real fun on subsequent rounds if the caster or target move around and potentially expose others to the damage. Neither option is super oberpowering

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

​@@SIZModig Nah, because of two things: 1.) Concentration 2.) The enemy can just leave the range with minimal effort. You can also throw in the fact that especially at higher levels cantrips scale, expect about 7 to 11 damage per hit, plus possible effect on target. Or if you have extra attack or something like it, two attacks can easily do more damage.

[@matthewhollenbeck1083]

We have a wild magic sorcerer in one of my campaigns, and the player and the GM worked out a homebrew option to allow chaos bolt to be a signature spell. Basically, when you upcast the spell, you add a d8 instead of a d6, it bounces if any of the d8's match, and you take away a d8 (to a minimum of 2) when it bounces. It's still bad at level 1, but up-casting it (especially with metamagic to improve your chance of hitting) gets you a pretty good chance to bounce every time - a level 3 casting has a ~58% chance to bounce at least once!

[@bskec2177]

HB'ed Wild Magic Sorcerers to get start with Chaos Bolt without it counting to their spells known, and gave them castings equal to the PB without a spell slot, but casting like that doubles the chances of a wild magic surge. It helps them keep up with the newer sorcerers out there and their massive free spell lists.

[@nathanfivecoate5848]

I made a comment about how I like to alter Chaos Bolt that I think you might like the look of. I could copy it here if you're interested

[@DvirPick]

If you play with the common house rule that the first leveled spell after using Tides of Chaos automatically triggers a surge (instead of having to decide on each spell cast whether or not to trigger a surge) then doubling the chances for a surge won't do much. The other aspects are good though. Thank you.

[@nathanfivecoate5848]

My reply mentioning my comment about homebrewing Chaos Bolt got a couple likes so here goes. I like to change Chaos Bolt in my own games so that it does 3d8 instead of 2d8+1d6 damage at 1st level, and when the bolt bounces, the new target takes 1d8 less damage than the target before it, meaning that, assuming a 1st level slot was used, the second target would take 2d8 damage, and if there were to be a third target, they would take only 1d8 damage. In addition to this, I like to make it deal an additional 1d8 damage for each slot level above 1st, making it have better scaling both due to higher initial damage and a greater chance for that bolt to bounce to additional targets. The spell may be op for it's level because of this but I think it's ok because it makes the spell more than just a discount Chromatic Orb by focusing it's identity around it pinballing between targets

[@tepami]

​@@nathanfivecoate5848 yeah that might be a bit strong but man that sounds really fun

[@nathanfivecoate5848]

@@tepami Yeah. Basically was a compromise between keeping it simple (only one size of damage die), fun (making the spell unique with the pinballing off targets), effective (both at base level and when upcast), and the balance of it was unfortunately the thing that suffered from it, but I don't think it's too big of a loss for a 1st level spell, especially when you consider spells like Sleep (5d8 hp of unconscious creatures) and Burning Hands (3d6 fire damage in a 15' cone). I guess if it was a problem you could reduce the base range of the spell from 120' down to something between 60' and 90' so that you have to at least be within the normal range of most ranged weapons

[@julianlastname5730]

When the average spell damage requires calculus to find you know they’ve got a hit mechanic

[@ianmorse9381]

Advantage is also a factor in attack roll spells, as it is fairly easy to achieve. Chromatic Orb boosts up to 11.85 from 8.775, surpassing Magic Missile which cannot benefit from advantage. If you have advantage on all rolls for the round, Chaos Bolt comes in at 13.69 dpr. 13.23 dpr if you only have advantage on the first attack. It's also worth noting that, while not a good use of sorcery points, you can spend one sorc point to reroll one of the die and increase your odds. IIRC it improves your chances from 1 in 8 to somewhere closer to 1 in 6. Witch Bolt... sucks. And of course, all of this gets outpaced as levels progress.

[@woutvanostaden1299]

I think that although I wouldn't recommend it twinning for 1 sorcery point also increases the chances.

[@hy_nano7114]

BUT KOBOLD! You forgot empowered chaos bolt which can increase chances of it reflecting! As another comment also mentioned, if you crit, the reflection chances increase massively! In addition, the closest thing to it, chromatic orb, deals around only 1-2 damage more, and it requires a 50 GP component

[@bskec2177]

Chromatic orb allows you to choose the damage type, and even though the spell component has a gold cost, it isn't consumed by the casting, which means you can ignore it with a focus. It also deals, on average, exactly 1 more point of damage than chaos bolt, assuming no bounce. In addition, it's not available to Warlocks, which Chaos bolt is.

[@porkchopsensei2742]

@@bskec2177 "A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell." This says nothing about whether or not the component is consumed. Even though the 50 gp component isn't consumed by Chromatic Orb, you still need the component and cannot substitute it with a focus.

[@anathema1828]

Nice work on the video- love the DPR breakdowns like this!

[@LocalMaple]

Witch Bolt: twin spell, potentially doubled DPR. Also, Sorcerers get Quickened Spell. So you can cast other spells on your Bonus Action. The real trap of Witch Bolt is the distance requirement. If you are 30’ away from the target, and it moves 5’ away, the spell ends.

[@Kylora2112]

Witch Bolt in melee as a hexblade to force them to either eat Witch Bolt or opportunity attacks.

[@DarthHelmet1010]

I love chaos bolt, but I think the chance to bounce it should increase as you up cast the spell. I have found that if you add a D8 every other level it will get decent bouncing odds while never reaching 100%. A cool house rule for this spell.

[@AtaraxianWist]

Honestly, I'd just remove the d6s at that point. The increased chance to bounce makes it worth all that, and you can just have it start at 3d8 and scale every odd slot level. Good thinking. I'm using this homebrew I just made from your homebrew now.

[@thedeaderer8791]

Lmfao I love how when the math starts Gator just Homer Simpsons his way outta there

[@jaredcarter1165]

Easy Chaos Bolt fix: roll 3d8, if any 2 match, repeat as expected. This is not only simpler to roll, it boosts the average to 12.5 damage, and does so mainly by increasing the chance of bouncing, which is the whole fun of the spell.

[@jaredcarter1165]

If that’s too much damage, using 3d6 increases the chance to bounce to half the time, for a respectable 10.8 average

[@Shad0wchasers1]

It'd be fun to see you compare spells across Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e, to see how the PF2E versions stack up.

[@1047josh]

I think that would be difficult, will different saves, AC's, its a different system so comparing the spells might be a tad apples to oranges.

[@Shad0wchasers1]

@@1047josh It would take at least twice as much research and math, yeah, but I'm still curious to hear how Kobold feels about spells that might seem suboptimal in D&D (or PF) but perform better in the other system.

[@99sonder]

Through the lens of optimization, the comparison won't really matter since you're using different rulesets against different creatures. But from a game design perspective it sounds like a very cool idea.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

They really are very different games

[@ecgrey]

It's not really apples to oranges. You can test them in their own systems separately and get an overall idea if the impact itself is more pronounced in one system over the other. Same with something like the Barbarian Rage - it functions differently, but is the flavour better expressed mechanically in 5e or 2e?

[@uberchops]

Witch bolt can be a great magic disruptor. Get advantage or portent on the initial roll and you can potentially needle a caster way above your weight for 10 rounds with a 1st level slot. Magic missile can force more saves at ones, sure, but it'll only burn the current spell. The range/cover issue stinks on a raw magic user sure but put it on an arcane trickster or somehow become invisible and you could waste 3 or 4 of their slots or resistances before you're even properly in combat. It's easy enough to write these off as edge cases but DnD is basically Edge-cases: The Game. Also, as others pointed out, it scales pretty well with a lot of metamagic options.

[@ArvelDreth]

Shouldn't you just use Melf's minute meteors since it lasts long enough to cast before a fight and then only requires a bonus action to keep firing meteors instead of your full action? I just think there are so many more ways to wreck concentration than witch bolt.

[@jeffreybond5796]

Ah, the old Magic Missile comparison. As with Chromatic Orb, advantage flips this on its head for Chaos Bolt. Advantage alone makes Chaos Bolt's base damage greater than that of Magic Missile (before factoring in the ability for it to jump to multiple targets). So if you have a reliable source of advantage (like an owl familiar, Tides of Chaos, allies providing advantage, etc) Chromatic Orb and Chaos Bolt are going to do more damage than Magic Missile. And the chance to jump to another target can also be manipulated. Crits (which advantage also helps achieve) give you 4 d8s to attempt a match. On top of that, Empowered metamagic (which Chaos Bolt was designed to synergize with) lets you reroll the d8s to increase your odds of it jumping while increasing the damage you rolled for the spell.

[@druxusthemage9806]

he is a kobold you think he would remeber pact tactics for advantage all the time but magic missles does 1.5 more damage so better lol

[@lollolo74yo99]

**laugh in upcasted witch bolt damage , maxximized with the storm cleric channel divinity **

[@archonfett]

"Unlimited Power!!!!!"

[@warmwaterpenguin]

Love to see a Chaos Bolt optimizing video. Obviously the result is still gonna be outrageously bad (and expensive to accomplish) but I think it'd be fun to math out all the little ways you can reroll your damage dice, twin, etc to go for maximum richochets... and then still show how its completely unviable

[@warmwaterpenguin]

Also: I wonder if twinning Witchbolt makes it viable in limited situations. I suspect not, since metamagic comes in at level 3 so its gonna have to beat level 3 baselines. In a niche scenario if I were down to my last slot but still had metamagic I could imagine something like quicken Truestrike, twin Witchbolt. The opportunity cost is making those sorcery points into a 1st or 2nd level spell slot with font of magic, so we've still got to beat at minimum Turn 1 MM, Turn 2 font into MM, Turn 3 Firebolt, Turn 4 Firebolt. Man, Witchbolt really is bad.

[@woutvanostaden1299]

So the most factors we can stack are elven accuracy, at advantage, improved critical (hexblade), twin spell and assuming a super generous DM that givs out 2 free feats at lvl 1with the Izzet background you might have a chance, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

[@aceofspades8474]

One advantage of witch bolt on a sorcerer is that when you do the extra damage as an action you aren’t casting a spell meaning you can quicken spell and cast something like fireball on the same turn as a bonus action, so those witch bolt and fireball damage calculations can happen at the same time if you have the sorcery points to spare. This still probably doesn’t make the spell good or worth using, but it’s something at the very least.

[@Miranda17137]

if you have 14 dex, which is pretty reasonable, you deal the same damage by taking a light crossbow shot. same damage & not wasting your concentration.

[@prosamis]

If witch bolt's subsequent turn damage ups when upcast, it would actually be a dope and really strong spell Alas

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

That I can agree on, however it seems like a lot of spells in 5e just don't upcast well. I'd call it a flaw in trying to over simplify things. So maybe they found it easier to just design the spell as they did. Which turned out to be cool idea, garbage execution.

[@aa6731]

If you get chaos bolt on a tempest cleric you may be able to get auto 8s with the channel divinity. I may be wrong about the rulings though, since you roll to determine the damage type.

[@damianchenot2667]

I'd like to see a guiding bolt video. It is one of my favorite first level spells.

[@indaDark]

- makesa wizard - reads witch bolt "OH this is cool!" - cast it once, never again

[@timogul]

I could see one advantage to Witch Bolt, in that if an enemy is very hard to hit, _but_ in which you could stack various _temporary_ buffs to ensure you can hit it _once,_ then it allows you to keep hitting it for as long as you can defend the caster, so there are some niche cases where it could be _very_ handy.

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

I still wouldn't call that good. If you, as a whole party, can only get 6.5 damage per turn on a target, you're better just running away.

[@timogul]

@@slydoorkeeper4783 Maybe. Although maybe it doesn't have high HP and just relies on being hard to hit, or maybe other members of the party are able to get hits in (due to higher hit chances), but this is the way for this caster to contribute.

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

@@timogul I feel a caster should be able to keep their hit chance up with the martials. That, and casters have the advantage to target saving throws, something that martials just really don't get. So the enemy is bound to have at least two bad saving throws.

[@Funkin_Disher]

Yeah I just made my own witch bolt. Witch Bolt 1st-level Evocation Casting Time: 1 action Range: 30 feet Components: V, S, M Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute Make a ranged spell attack against a creature you can see within range. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage. Until the spell ends you can make this attack again on each of your turns as a bonus action. If you target a creature you hit with this attack on your last turn, the attack automatically hits. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d12 for every slot level above 1st.

[@HOGTO1000]

I think a point that wasn’t mentioned that is of great importance is that magic missile does force damage which is probably the most consistent damage type while chaos bolt’s inherent randomness means it has the possibility of hitting a resistance meaning it randomly halves it’s damage 1/8 times against enemies which resist even one of its damage types not to mention two!

[@aaronspindel6118]

In response to chaos bolt: The other single target attack roll spell available to sorcerers is Chromatic Orb, which does 3d8 damage on a hit. Assuming the same to-hit chance of 0.65, we would find the damage from chromatic orb to be (3*4.5)*(0.65)=8.775 damage on average. I'll ignore crits since you ignored crits for chaos bolt (which is fine as it won't affect the comparison much). We then see that chaos bolt, the only other first level single target attack roll spell for sorcerers, does worse damage on average than chaos bolt. Unless I'm missing something, it seems moreso that at lower levels when spell attack modifiers are lower, the consistency of magic missile just makes magic missile better than spells with attack rolls. So it isn't that chaos bolt is bad, but that at lower levels magic missile is very good. The bigger issue with chaos bolt is its level scaling.

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

Funny thing is that these designs fit so much better in PF2E. Popping weaknesses or avoiding resistance in PF2E in chaos bolt would be pretty fun. And I can imagine Witch Bolt as a real sustain spell that costs 1 Action in future turns to deal beefy ongoing damage.

[@aetherwolf9288]

The only real use for chaosbolt is to be picked up by order of scribe wizards to change the damage type of their magic missile against the three creatures (Helmed Horror, Amethystdragons and Amethyst Greatwyrm) to damage them. But you have to pick up a feat for this and even then you are better of picking thunder wave because none of those creatures have resistance to thunder.

[@lucasramey6427]

Chromatic orb.......

[@aetherwolf9288]

@@lucasramey6427 chromatic orb has the disadvantage that you lose on psychic damage and if you have to cast it (for example magic missile is worthless against any caster or don’t have enough damage against multiple targets you have to kill) the possibility that you can cast chaosbolt is higher than chromatic orb. Also you lose 30 ft of range wich can be bad. Granted all of the scenarios are extremely unlikely but when they come around you may wanna consider chaosbolt over chromatic orb. The problem with chromatic orb is that it needs a diamond to be casted. And diamond are to valuable to be in the hands of the sorcerer (revivify and greater restoration for example).

[@Elyandarin]

I think you could fix the spell with two changes: -Add +2 to the attack roll per upcast level. -If attack misses or target dies, and the duration hasn't ended, you may choose a target and roll attack next turn. Now it's... still not a great spell, but it has a solid niche use for doing damage to hard-to-hit targets. If you also added the Shocking Grasp's effect of having advantage against metal armour and removing the target's Reaction if it hits, then it would be pretty good for a 1st-level spell, IMO.

[@felixrivera895]

Oh sweet! I really like thinking about Witchbolt in comparison to its fail case where you just do other things for the rest of conbat

[@Godzillawolf1]

One potential tactic I could see with Witch Bolt is use a feat to get it on a Tempest Cleric. At level 6, you get Thunderbolt Strike and can toss enemies ten feet if you deal lightning damage. This would basically let you move the targetted foe ten feet for free each round. While a bit niche, it could be useful if your party has strategies built around forced movement. Would be better if it could move them in any direction, but still, it could be useful.

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

That makes it worse unless you have some way to keep the target with 30ft of you. Otherwise they have a 10ft head start to get out of that 30ft tether.

[@clint4951]

I really like the flavor and mechanics of *Chaos Bolt* (especially tying to Wild Magic); but, it is weak. My Homebrew Fix: 1) When you roll "doubles," the damage increases to 12 if below that (as if you rolled two 6). 2) When dice rolled are 6-6-6 (the 2d8 and one 1d6), choose any damage type and double damage. 3) Subsequent "bolt" attack rolls spawning from the first are made with advantage. 4) Maximum bolts equals 1 + Proficiency bonus. Creatures can be targeted more than once.

[@satiricalsatyr9463]

for the sorcerer if you plan on taking witch bolt I recommend using twin spell on it, it is (to my knowledge at the time of writing this) the only spell you can use twin spell on to do continuous damage and it (potentially) can double the damage potential this way for the spell. Is this "the best spell in the game," no not by far but is it a good way to maximize potential profit out of these two things that honestly wouldn't see much use otherwise and fun to do, I do believe so

[@water..8320]

Chaos bold has always been one of my favourite spells just for the fun and sometimes damage but usually its just fun to blast chaos

[@estebanrodriguez5409]

To really mess people up, Chaos Bolt should do 3d6 damage (with the upcast of +1d6)... rolling doubles with 3 or more dice is way more common than 1-in-6.

[@aurtosebaelheim5942]

I'd be tempted to swap the d8s in Chaos Bolt for d4s. Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning. Less spiky damage, more likely to chain. Alternatively, use the d6 for the chaining. Bolt chains to a target within (d6 result)x5ft. It will hit every clown in a clown car but is pretty iffy at dealing with more dispersed crowds. I'd also be tempted to add a line at the end saying something like: "You may target yourself with the bolt, if you do, the spell ends and you may cast it again as an action on your next turn without expending a spell slot" so you can keep it pinballing around forever if you're willing to take the damage (and the random damage means it's very hard to be immune to the negative consequences). Witch Bolt seems deliberately tame to limit future synergies, but then those future synergies never came. I'd suggest one or more of: - Target must make an Athletics check/Fort save to willingly move away from you. - Dealing damage with the spell is a bonus action. - Spell can be moved to a different target with a reaction (immediately dealing its damage to the new target?). The scaling is also horrible. I think it should either scale in range or number of targets.

[@rikospostmodernlife]

This is my version of WB: *Witch bolt-fixed* _Level 1, evocation_ *Classes:* Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard *Casting Time:* 1 Action *Range:* 60 feet *Components:* V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning) *Duration:* Concentration, up to 1 minute A crackling bolt of blue energy shoots toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 3d4 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your bonus action to automatically deal 3d4 lightning damage to the target. The spell ends if the target is ever out of range of the spell or has full cover for you. *At higher levels.* When you cast this spell using a spell slot of second level or higher, the initial damage increases by 3d4 for each slot level above first.

[@openmoose]

I played a "wizard school dropout" (Wild soul Sorcerer) who was bad at magic, and I LOVED using Chaos Bolt! I'd always call out what kind of damage it'd be before rolling. "How about a little FIRE, scarecrow!" (and then I roll poison or cold. *shrug*)

[@oldgrognardsays]

I have found that the only way to make witch bolt useful to players is to make an item that casts it, like an equivalent of a wand of magic missiles but witch bolt.

[@jonasboel2473]

ok, if you got a maximize effect on your chaos bolt you can guarentee it leaping from enemy to enemy as the 2d8 will allways roll 8s you can achieve this with a 2 level dip in tempest cleric, being an evoker wizard with the "Izzet Engineer" background, or drinking a Potion of Maximum Power. As a DM, if you have a sorceror that loves chaos bolt, i can highly reccomend giving them a potion of maximum power, without telling them this effect and letting them come the that conclusion themselves.

[@Delta-V-Heavy]

I've got an Artillerist Artificer that I'm planning to multiclass into Wizard, and I've been thinking Witch Bolt might be semi-decent in this context, as my Eldritch Cannon gives me a bonus action attack I can do even while spending my actions on Witch Bolt.

[@isaacthek]

What would make these stronger is making subclass adjustments to make them more appealing as build around spells. A wild magic sorcerer could have an ability that 1) allows chaos bolt to hit the same target multiple times a turn and 2) adjust each of the die rolled for damage by 1. This would significantly increase the rate of it popping off and it would be completely on flavor with the subclass. For witchbolt, an evocation mage or storm sorcerer could get a damage reroll to increase average output, and maybe the ability to swap it over to a new target with an attack roll. A warlock may have some pact that blends this with hex, so it's a single continuous damage spell with a debuff.

[@ChasoGod]

I would say for Chaos Bolt a fix would be that you roll for the damage and energy type, but for each spell slot level higher than 1st it gets another damage and energy roll, if the target dies on the first roll it can just to another target for the second. Repeat until 9th bolt is done. It should also just do 2d8 damage. Spellcaster casts Chaos Bolt at one target in a group using a 3nd level spell slot Chaos Bolt hits and deals 2d8 Electric Damage and the target dies Chaos Bolt then bounces off corpse of first target onto Second nearby target within 30ft of First and deals 2d8 Psychic damage Second target is still alive Chaos Bolt sticks to Second target then does 2d8 Force damage to them

[@Sambrostar]

I need to see a video from you about Guiding Bolt. Had a Cleric at the table use it twice in the same combat, both missed and did nothing. Felt like a waste, especially since the AC of the creatures was 17, so even one of them hitting would have been insane. I have since buffed it at my table so that it still does half damage and gives advantage on the next attack on a miss.

[@Mr_GoR_]

"Your such a white room optimizer" awwww, Gator's been paying attention.

[@xerceselvenclaw1663]

A Witch Bolt has such little range that a target can leave the range in one move. They don’t even have to Dash

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

Exactly 30ft Plus concentration Plus sight of target That spell should have done 2d12 initially to even be worth it. Heck with a 2d12 per following round. The way I see witch bolt, you probably only get 2 rounds of use AT MOST. The round cast, and the round afterwards. So with 5e's version, 2d12 over two rounds really isn't good.

[@AgentForest]

Witch Bolt really should have scaled the recurring damage with upcasting too. If you get an opening to land it against a heavily armored enemy, like while an ally had it prone or marked with guiding bolt, you could get a lot of damage out of it, but only if that periodic damage scaled. Its strength is only that you just need to land one hit. After that the damage is guaranteed, and they should have leaned into that.

[@KatieGimple]

Honestly, Chaos bolt is a pretty easy fix. Just make it 3d8 instead of 2d8 + 1d6. It makes it a lot more likely to jump around, and gives you another damage type to choose from which are really the parts that are exciting about the spell. It might be a little too strong then, but because it is so random and is also sorcerer only statistically it should be a little better on average than something like Magic Missile that is way more reliable.

[@einkar4219]

geometric series I never thought that it will be used at Pact Tactics

[@Centaur255]

Okay, you're probably right about Guiding Bolt not being a big deal either, and you're probably right, but two observations on it: 1) It's a way to do damage and help a party member on the same action, which is pretty rare for 1st level spells. And being able to help a Rogue get Sneak Attack, help a barbarian crit, etc. is good if it's being tacked onto a radiant damage spell for free. 2) If you're a war cleric, being able to deal radiant damage, run up to the target, and then bonus action to attack with advantage as early as Level 1 is a pro move that no other class can do at that level. And while not the greatest thing ever, it's a useful ability well past 1st level.

[@pepus777]

I would love to see your take on the recent UA release, particularly wild shape.

[@Adam_First]

Great video

[@TheHammockProduction]

you should use the youtube cards to link videos together! like the hex vid when you mentioned it and the hunter's mark video in that one. was just rewatching and thought you should know :>

[@PicoriElder]

Rather late, but my one argument for Witch Bolt is that it's primary use case is for when you only have one spell slot left at the end of a day, or if you are running a very gritty campaign where long rests are far and few between, or there is just a lot happening between those long rests.

[@GoingShorinRyu]

I build a wild Magic Sorcerer, too. I love the Chaos Bolt. I built a human so i Took the Meta Magic feat and startet with the Meta Magic for Spell duplication and dmg reroll (which can even be paired). So i can initially Hit 2 enemys and have a higher Chance to make it jump. Pure chaos

[@nathanfivecoate5848]

I like to alter Chaos Bolt in my own games so that it does 3d8 instead of 2d8+1d6 damage at 1st level, and when the bolt bounces, the new target takes 1d8 less damage than the target before it, meaning that, assuming a 1st level slot was used, the second target would take 2d8 damage, and if there were to be a third target, they would take only 1d8 damage. In addition to this, I like to make it deal an additional 1d8 damage for each slot level above 1st, making it have better scaling both due to higher initial damage and a greater chance for that bolt to bounce to additional targets. The spell may be op for it's level because of this but I think it's ok because it makes the spell more than just a discount Chromatic Orb by focusing it's identity around it pinballing between targets

[@michaelmuirhead910]

I might have missed it, but I’m wondering if you’ve analyzed spells that are damage over time vs blasting and aoe. Even a sub optimal spell like witch bolt seems to have some value vs repeated cantrip attacks, or using more spell slots with something like magic missile. (At least before cantrips scale to the second and third die added) I have a scribes wizard and found an interesting point brought up by Bilbron when talking about the manifest mind feature. I think a summon spell is likely the best option, but thinking about spell slot management, and prof bonus uses/long rest makes me curious. What do you think?

[@ArvelDreth]

Damage now is better than damage later because if you kill things much faster right away you reduce the amount of rounds enemies will have to deal damage.

[@benevolentworldexploder5395]

I don't think this fixes chaos bolt, but my home ruling is that whatever you roll on the d6 is also used to determine if the attack bounces to another target, but I still maintain the damage type is based on the 2d8s. The really crappy part about the bolt bouncing around is that each bounce is another attack roll, so even when a player gets excited that it bounces, it probably ends up missing. There's too many obstacles to overcome. As for witch bolt, I've never bothered trying to come up with anything. What I think hurts these spells is the fact they are ranged spell attacks and not saving throws with half damage. I could see highly improbable case in early combat where you've got someone doorway dodging and you use witch bolt, maybe true strike has a fringe case here (I mean, you aren't concerned with a longer encounter if you are using witch bolt, so that's something to consider), to punch down a mean critter, but there's a lot of variables here that hinder the spell: 1) Since the spell is a ranged attack and you are targeting through a player, the opponent gets a 1/2 cover bonus, so that theoretical 13 turns into a 15, not a great start. 2) Low level enemies struggle to deal with player AC. Your doorway dodger might be better off swinging this early. 3) This is literally the death of combat when it comes to player enjoyment. There's no decisions here beyond that initial spell and the doorway dodger being bored out of their mind.

[@GradeAMolvanian]

One of my players is addicted to Guiding Bolt. I can not get him to cast something else for the life of me. It's not LITTERALLY the only spell he uses in combat, just... 80% of the time.

[@rafaelbordoni516]

"I don't need to cast bless or heal on my party if my enemies are dead" - your friend, probably

[@probablythedm1669]

Send an invisible monster after him. He needs to see the target to Guiding Bolt it! 😉

[@Dizerel]

Chaos Bolt, being a sorcerer spell, is what makes it pop off. I was in a low-level campaign where I made my entire build around chaos bolt. First thing's first, you forgot to mention the fact that critting means you roll double the damage dice, which EXPONENTIALLY increases the odds of the spell bouncing. I think the odds of a bounce go from like 1/8 to around 50%, I forgot where I saw the math but off the top of my head thats what I remember. And while critting is of course not guaranteed, you are playing a sorcerer, which means you have metamagic options that can work with this spell a LOT better than it does other spells. Seeking spell, for instance, lets you reroll missed spell attacks and gives you more chances to critfarm. Twinned spell lets you shoot out two chaos bolts and therefore double its damage output and give you two separate chances to bounce. Finally there is empowered spell, which I think is the crown jewel of metamagic to go with chaos bolt. It allows you to reroll the damage dice, meaning you can just fish for bounces by rerolling the D8s. I played a wild magic sorcerer with chaos bolt, took twinned spell and empowered spell. Between critical hits, twinned spell doubling my damage output and chance to roll a crit or bounce, and empowered spell letting me reroll low damage rolls and fish for bounces, I found that my chaos bolt was bouncing around half the time that I cast it. Now, this combo definitely does not scale very well into higher levels, but up to level 5 or 6 or so Id say its a fantastic combo, and thematically makes sense on a wild magic sorcerer too! Being a sorcerer of unpredictable, uncontrollable magic shooting out bolts of equally unpredictable, chaotic magical energy? Sign me up!

[@Tzizenorec]

Last time I played a wizard, my DM showed me a significant weakness of Magic Missile: If you can't see your target, then you can't cast the spell. (Most other attack spells can still attack with disadvantage, and a few such as Fireball don't care if you can see at all.)

[@tiffanyfrost3271]

I always found it so funny that in the sea of concentration spells in the warlock spell list, the one spell they get that purely does damage… is also concentration

[@jrg305]

In a campaign where cover rules are strict, witch bolt is excellent, and upcasting on a warlock is how it is always cast. It does the most damage for a warlock spell. The calculations above are assuming casting at level 1. Our group uses a rule that if melee are in front of you, the monster gets cover and of you roll poorly you also hit your friends. Having 2-4 chances per attack roll to hit a friend for less damage is not a good strategy compared to rolling one attack roll and then benefiting from your friends hanging out between you and the monster for extra AC for the squishy caster. I really like that cover rule and think other games not playing with it obviously makes min maxed builds for damage that don't consider the utility of other attack methods fall short quickly

[@tiffanyfrost3271]

@@jrg305 Your group plays with a weird rule but that also has nothing to do with the concentration. If you are concentrating on one of your other warlock spells (which most of them require concentration) then you will lose concentration when you cast witch bolt.

[@wutzibu]

Chaos Bolt can gige you multiple damage types, which could be useful when it comes to resistances or vulnerabilities. Also for Flavor when you Play a wild Magic sorc.

[@JazzJackrabbit]

The reason you want Chaos Bolt is because you can twin it. By contrast, you cannot twin Magic Missile. There aren't a lot of good ways to use Sorcery Points at levels 3 or 4 except to generate another spell slot. At level 3, you can get a second level spell slot. At level 4, you can get two first level spell slots. So, with magic missile, your sorcery points can grant you another 21 damage at level four. But for Chaos Bolt, you can get an additional 38 damage. Much better! Of course, if you factor in the opportunity cost here of having to spend another action to perform the magic missile instead of, say, firing your light crossbow with 16 DEX (1d8+3), then the gap becomes so much wider. Sure, most damage types from Chaos Bolt are less effective than force damage, and the chance of hitting the target is not as reliable. Except, you know, when the target casts Shield (like Glass Staff, in MoP). So yeah, I would choose Chaos Bolt (or Chromatic Orb) almost every time!

[@peterrasmussen4428]

I have found that guiding bolt is actually kinda okay at higher levels when attacking creatures with magic resistance. Not amazing or anything, but far better than the save based alternatives against magic resistance (after you have a good concentration spell up of course).

[@zc104_purple5]

I heard geometric series and got pierced through the chest with an arrow made of my math classes

[@paulovictor9158]

And ideas I had to fix chaos bolt: Chaos Bolt - Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 5d4 damage. Choose two pairs of d4s, the odd dice is always force damage. The first dice from each pair abides for list A, as the other from list B to determine its damage. The number rolled on each die determines it's damage type, as shown below. Damage Type: List A List B 1 Poison 1 Lightning 2 Fire 2 Necrotic 3 Acid 3 Psychic 4 Cold 4 Thunder If you roll the same number on both d4s, the chaotic energy leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice within 30 feet of it. Make a new attack roll against the new target, and make a new damage roll, which could cause the chaotic energy to leap again, whenever there's a leap you add a odd dice to the damage. A creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, you add a pair of d4 of extra damage to the first target for each slot level above 1st.

[@nathanfivecoate5848]

An iteresting idea for a rework. If you don't mind, here's my own idea I had: Changing the spell so it does 3d8 instead of 2d8+1d6 damage at 1st level, and when the bolt bounces, the new target takes 1d8 less damage than the target before it, meaning that, assuming a 1st level slot was used, the second target would take 2d8 damage, and if there were to be a third target, they would take only 1d8 damage. In addition to this, I like to make it deal an additional 1d8 damage for each slot level above 1st, making it have better scaling both due to higher initial damage and a greater chance for that bolt to bounce to additional targets. The spell may be op for it's level because of this but I think it's ok because it makes the spell more than just a discount Chromatic Orb by focusing it's identity around it pinballing between targets

[@paulovictor9158]

@@nathanfivecoate5848 My biggest issues were: 1st it's not very likely to bounce, 2nd it's not chaotic enough it literally only deals one damage type. Yours certainly make the spell better damage wise, but I still feel like relying more on the uniqueness of it makes it better

[@nathanfivecoate5848]

@@paulovictor9158 Right. I was trying to make it have better damage and bounce chance (the unique trait of the spell) while still being fairly simple. I feel that making the spell use several d4s it makes its damage type feel less random(?), unless each d4 (or pair of d4s) does its own damage of the indicated type(s)

[@paulovictor9158]

@@nathanfivecoate5848 that's exactly what it does, sorry not my main language so I might not have been clear enough with my wording.

[@kylethomas9130]

Its spells like this, I tend to pick a lot of Evocation Cantrips, and utility/defense 1st level spells. Since it only takes some fire resistance to make Firebolt not worth your action economy.

[@EdranNight]

I think the way of somewhat fixing these spells are this Let Chaos bolt target the same creature, it's not that big a deal and the chance of it actually getting the second shot isn't that high (around 1.5625%) so the chances of it one shotting things isn't necessarily that good, besides its a sorcerer only spell, Let it have the chance pop off in any fight Witch bolt is also really simple, just change it from an action to a bonus action to continue the auto damage, and if your scared of too much auto damage on a bonus action, just slap a con save on it to half the damage for that turn similar to how Flaming Sphere has its dex save on its bonus action damage

[@robertomascheroni9158]

Chaos bolt was my fireball under lv5. I used this spell only once per session for the meme and it always bounced at least once. It was great.

[@heatran1919]

I feel like an easy fix to chaos bolt would be to scale it down to like, 2d4+Cha damage and make it a cantrip. A 25% chance for a second bolt is way more reliable, and give it the standard cantrip scaling with an additional d4 each time, increasing the odds of at least two of the dice being the same (eventually scaling up the dice size bc once you hit 5d4 youd be guaranteed to get repeats & that's too silly)

[@margaretmyklebust2577]

Yes, Gatorland! Good idea.

[@TheHorribleCreature]

At least as a Gobbo, I could hide before casting those to get advantage. But yeah, I'd rather use guiding bolt (gives advantage to friends) or chromatic orb (I can actually choose the damage type).

[@malcolmalexistaylor6678]

I love that all the optimizers (which I dabble) show you how to start with at least a 18 in your primary stat… but then when proving their point about a spell, they use 16… I wonder how many times any of their characters have started with a 16 in their primary. I’m curious what the math says with a 18. 2 other things I noticed you didn’t consider. 1. (This has already been pointed out) You can not crit with magic missile. If you crit with chaos bolt, the odds of it jumping goes way up. 2. Having it jump to another players is such an amazing moment in a game and it’s free. The damage for a 1st level spell is good (it’s not the best but it’s good) and when it jumps it could be the best damage you could do with a 1st level spell. But yeah witch bolt sucks… love the content!

[@iateitguy903]

I'm trying to think of ways to change it to make these useful without making them too powerful With Chaos Bolt I tossed around the idea of removing the d6 and giving the spell a d8 for each upcast as well as remove the limit on how much a creature can be targeted, but that left the scenario where a lvl 9 Chaos Bolt was guaranteed infinite damage. Maybe keeping the d6, then alternate which die increases per lvl, and keep the target limit? Lvl 2 would be 2d8+2d6, 3rd is 3d8+2d6, etc. Witch Bolt could benefit from the continued damage being upcast as well, since normally a guarenteed d12 when you have better cantrips at later levels is awful. Tossing around the idea of d8s or d10s equal to the spell slot for continued damage, which slightly weaker to start but upscales well later down the road.

[@dairoleon2682]

I have Witch Bolt, Chaos Bolt, Fire Bolt, E. Blast, and Guiding Bolt on my DS/Hex. I don't use any of them. Guiding Bolt is awesome for damage and Advantage, on paper, but in practice of the 4-5 times I used it, I only hit one target and it died instantly so the Advantage benefit wasn't even relevant. And that's with the help of the Spell Sniper feat.

[@commanderroddi7742]

I had some fine times with chaos bolt, and the only time I'd consider witch bolt is as a warlock, but frankly, concentrating on hex and eldrict blast is much better. WOrks for something like a storm sorcerer with elemental adept, but its not good. Between those two, I'd pick chromatic orb :)

[@tobiasschmid9216]

Witchbolt is decent against invisible creatures, as you do not need to see the creature. So if you hit once you do continuing dmg. You can be like a little martial and not be shut down by greater invisibility xD

[@FuelDropforthewin]

Witchbolt note: damage upfront is better than damage over time. Dropping the enemy faster means they can do less damage back to you.

[@mellowtron1166]

I wonder if Kobold will release a video about chromatic orb and guiding bolt now since they are both single target 1st level spells as well.

[@harperna3938]

Chaos Bolt would be really fun spell if upcasting it increased the number of d8s in play (and therefore the odds of it leaping, up to a maximum of 99.99% for 10d8 at 9th level). At that point, though, it should probably be made into a Wild Magic subclass feature (lord knows they could use the help). Make Tides of Chaos scalar (to subclass level, not PB or CHA) and, hey, the subclass is actually playable! EDIT Wild Magic subclass feature: *Exponential Uncertainty* Starting at first level, you learn the spell Chaos Bolt. If you already know the spell Chaos Bolt, you learn another spell of your choice from the Sorcerer spell list. When you cast Chaos Bolt with a spell slot of second level or higher, each target takes 1d8 extra damage of the type rolled for each slot level above 1st. Extra d8s rolled when the spell is cast this way can cause the spell to leap to another target, so long as two of the d8s rolled match. If you cast Chaos Bolt using a higher level slot, the DM can have you roll a d20 immediately after the spell leaps but before you roll to attack. If you roll a 1, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect. If that effect is a spell, it is too wild to be affected by your Metamagic, and if it normally requires concentration, it doesn't require concentration in this case; the spell lasts for its full duration. If you trigger a Wild Magic surge this way, Chaos Bolt cannot leap again until you recast the spell. --- This has the problem of being extremely dippable since it's scalar with slot level, so I suppose it should really be pushed back to sixth level instead.

[@larkermouse]

Honestly, Chaos bolt would be a better spell if it was 2d6 + 1d8, adding a d8 per spell level, and chaining when the d6s match. The average damage as a 1st level spell decreases by 0.65, but it would scale better, and your chance to chain it would be 1/6, not 1/8. The other homebrew fix, which would be hard to calculate, would be to add a d8 when it scales. Then, as long as at least two of the d8s match, it could chain. So if you are casting it as a 3rd level spell, you roll 4d8+1d6, and you have a much higher chance of chaining. And then if you cast it at 8th or 9th level, it's guaranteed to chain (if it hits).

[@plasmyth5501]

Love those level 1 exclusive spells

[@Treblaine]

I like the leaping mechanic, but it possibly triggering only 1/8th of the time is just way too chancy especially as you also need a separate attack roll on each subsequent target. It would be a balanced spell if every hit allowed it to "jump" to another target and as soon as there's a miss then the chain ends. The range for the "jump" should be much shorter though.

[@Wodferd]

The other biggest problem Witch Bolt comes with is its amazingly awful Range requirement. On most classes that can take it, 30ft is a bad place to be because of how likely it makes you to be hit. Fire Bolt, Magic Missile, and Eldritch Blast all have a base line range of 120ft. 4 TIMES the range of Witch Bolt. The fact the biggest "selling point" of Witch Bolt requires you to stay in that 30ft Range also makes it insanely risky for basically zero reward. You shoot the Orc Barbarian with Witch Bolt and do some decent damage, great. Now its the Orcs turn. It can either; A) ignore you and keep slapping your friends, B) Move away from you to go slap a friend, probably turning off your Witch Bolts continued damage, or C) move the 30 or fewer feet required to come slap YOU, and potentially breaking your concentration on Witch Bolt anyway and force you to either cast in melee range next turn, waste your next turns action to Disengage, or risk an attack of Op to get away from it. You can't even really shoot them with the Witch Bolt and then dip behind cover, because if you fully hide behind an object while trying to keep the 30ft range of the spell, you're probably still in range to get slapped, or you've just given the target full cover against you.

[@TheNoMoreGamer]

With all these mathematically subpar spells I’m curious what you’d do to fix them, or if someone else proposed a good fix I’d like to see that.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

Witch Bolt has a pretty easy fix. Remove concentration, make the extra damage automatic instead of requiring an action, then it's about on par with other first level spells. Chaos Bolt is trickier.

[@asheronthedruid]

Seeing as chaos bolt is only available to sorcerers I think it's fair to consider metamagic such as Empowered Spell which let's you reroll. It's very draining on resources but re-rolling a d8 should increase its chances of leaping to a new target by quite a bit.

[@kaiyamazaki1684]

Ya, optimal use of Witch Bolt is pretty situational. It'd pretty much best used at low levels on powerful single targets like boss monsters when you need to focus on damage exclusively. Even then I'd say it's most effective specifically on the Sorcerer thanks to Metamagic like Quickened Spell. In any other situation, it's probably not the best option.

[@umbraignis0]

So might have gone down a bit of a rabbit hole looking at WB math... So using the 13AC example Kobold used, it takes 5 rounds for WB to do on average more dmg than MM for a single spell slot. However if you have adv every round or you have disadv every round then it actually takes 6 rounds for WB to surpass MM. However in doing so I think I found the best case situation that actually makes WB a decent cast at low level. Ambushes If you have Adv first round but then reg hits every round after then it only takes 3 rounds to do on average more dmg. Also if going up against an opponent who can give themselves disadvantage it still takes 3 rounds to do more but it starts to stack up fast.

[@tokleb]

I think the chance to cast Fire Bolt at the Witch Bolt calculations for the following turns should be 35% not 45%. Also I would have liked to see if it gets better against high AC targets where the fact that you only have to hit once might help.

[@themalcontent100]

Does Chaos bolt require you to see the target to cast it? If you or the enemy is in darkness, can you still hit them? I kind of see it more like the sorcerer's version of the cromatic obb, better at hitting an enemy weak point. The chain effect is just a happy bonus.