Bishop Barron on the Sacrament of the Eucharist as Real Presence

[@tramcarter]

Father Barron you sermons are so awesome. I have learned so much thought out the years. Thank you for guiding us catholic into a deeper understanding on the Word of God.

[@niallhogan1565]

This is the best explanation of the living presents of Christ in the Eucharist. Thank you Bishop Barron

[@gregorykotoch5045]

Although I am Protestant and not Catholic, it has been fascinating to learn about church history and Catholicism over the past year and a half.

[@tigglebitty65]

Very true. We couldn't be more blessed to have such hard working Priests who spend so much time taking care of us. My church alone started with 1 Priest and few hundred members about 25 years or so ago, and now it has 2 Priests, and over 3,200 "families" who go to mass there each week...I've never seen such hard working people anywhere else...ever in my life. They certainly do wonderful work, and I could never thank them enough for everything they do.

[@mariselabecerra1675]

I'm awestruck! Thank you so much, dear bishop for bringing us closer to the miracle of the Eucarist

[@Aviatr23]

This is still among the very best explanations of the Eucharist and the transubstantiation. Thank you Bishop Barron.

[@mariamatusiewicz4280]

The Bread is Awesome! I love it in my soul forever.

[@MicaleAntonio]

I love this; absolutely well said at the end: it remains of central importance. Thanks Fr. Barron

[@cbb948]

BRAVO well done. I add that The Real Presence ie The Eucharist brings us into the entire Mystery of Redemption: The Life, Teachings, Death, Resurrection, Ascension and Pentecost (of Christ)--It is not a spacial reality but a REAL one and in Faith our entering into Christ in the Mystery of the Redemption. Worship of the Sacred host encapsulates all of this but not to the exclusion of celebrating the Eucharist in the Mass. All the Sacraments are Real actions of Christ. The Eucharist:most complete

[@CoryTheRaven]

Though Lutheran, probably the thing I appreciate the most about Catholicism is the sacramental emphasis. We believe in the Real Presence (not troubling ourselves to weigh in on the mechanics of it, either transubstantiation or consubstantiation or whatever... We are content to simply know that He is there as promised), but we still labour under the Protestant affliction which puts the emphasis on the sermon rather than the sacrament. You made an excellent defense of it!

[@tigglebitty65]

Additionally, when Priests preach on concepts that may be controversial at times, those listening to the sermon, have the privilege of knowing that the message isn't being delivered from someone who's trying to build a 10 million dollar house...its coming from someone who works 90 hours a week, who has devoted his entire life, to helping as many souls as possible get into heaven...which is probably why our teachings have resulted in a 1 billion+ membership...despite our controversial teachings..

[@tigglebitty65]

I can assure you, that for those who have a "true calling" towards a valid religious vocation that celibacy is very much a gift for both the individual priest & individual nuns respectively as it is for the members of the parish and even those in the community who receive services & special blessings through the work of those individual priests and nuns.

[@julietahernandez5644]

Es una vía magnífica de catetizar. Gracias, obispo Barron.

[@cmgambit23]

I'm like a child when it comes to this, to put it simply, he says it is, so it is. Period

[@CoryTheRaven]

If it's any consolation, Protestants just kind of smile and nod indulgently whenever we hear Catholics claim to be the One True Church of Christ.

[@lponline1]

I just came across this video today and noticed that the discussion has gotten way off track from the content of the video. Fr. Barron has an essay on priestly celibacy. Perhaps those interested in the topic can go read that essay and pick up the conversation over there. The article on wordonfire web site is entitled "A-Case-for-Celibacy-by-Priests"

[@jimmyross4352]

Now this is divine revelation.

[@georgepenton808]

I was a Protestant the first 18 years of my life. I never knew about Catholic belief in the Eucharist, or even that Catholics had Communion, and I never had heard of or read the sixth chapter of John. You can bet your bottom dollar no preacher preached a sermon on that chapter.

[@scottjoyner3700]

Same here. And, not too long ago, a Protestant friend of mine said that he had never heard chapter six. His father is a minister.

[@billlloyd7423]

@@scottjoyner3700astounding that any true Christian would say “I never heard that.” The bible is God’s word to us. If you aren’t picking up the bible and reading it and studying it for yourself, you’re an empty vessel. Catholic’s love the priests to feed them and therein lies the biggest problem with the Catholic church. And this video simply exposes the idolatry inherent in the Catholic church

[@tigglebitty65]

You have to realize that the prerequisite for "happiness" is not "universal." What makes you happy, won't necessarily make me happy, & vice versa. Fr O'Brian, like tens of thousands of other Priests in this country see their vow of celibacy as a gift, & appreciate the "immeasurable joy" that comes with this gift. Fr O'Brian didn't become a Priest until he was 29 years old, & found a greater sense of fulfillment as a celibate Priest than he did as a lawyer, teacher, & in romantic relationships.

[@tigglebitty65]

...and really, I could go on and on about why the "gift" of celibacy is honestly one of the most precious and wonderful things that has ever been given to our wonderful Priests and nuns, but I will end it by simply saying that it is truly inspirational to me when I see a nun or a priest who's in a hurry because he or she is so devoted to taking care of someone else, and I will be sure to keep them in my prayers for all of the wonderful things they do for us every single day.

[@tigglebitty65]

"The only people who have any right to provide me with spiritual advice are people who have demonstrated themselves to be worthy of my respect" ...Well thank God the apostles were courageous enough to be so fearless in the eyes of those who had that same mind set (that you have)....as they surely encountered such challenges on a daily basis while spreading the Gospel after Christ's resurrection...& thank God the successor of St. Peter....remains likewise as courageous nearly 2000 years later:)

[@CoryTheRaven]

1) OUr primary doctrinal text is the Book of Concorde. You can look the following up for yourself: Augsburg Confession, Article X. Defense of the Augsburg Confession, Article X and XXII. Smalcald Articles, Part III, Article VI (esp. para. 5). Large Catechism, "Sacrament of the Altar." Epitome and Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concorde VII. What you might notice is that transubstantiation is rejected but not replaced with another philosophical formula. Lutherans' concern was pastoral.

[@cristianosousa3378]

Love this explanation!

[@CoryTheRaven]

It always was that way. Every person must decide for themselves what they believe and what they don't, even Catholics.

[@justinmarter9796]

Another difference between "phago" and "trogo" I've read from other academics is that the former refers to eating merely for sustenance; whereas, the latter may refer to savoring the meal -- contemplating it while masticating. Hence, "trogo" implies a more intimate meal (Cf. Jo 13:18, where "trogo" makes Judas' betrayal even more hurtful.) No wonder so many of his disciples were disgusted and left: "Don't just eat my flesh -- SAVOR my flesh. Swish my blood around in your mouth like a fine wine."

[@tigglebitty65]

Unlike Joel Osteen, Priests don't measure their success by preaching to a stadium full of people, or by living in a 10 million dollar house. Instead they say mass every single day, and maybe up to 5 times on Sunday to allow them to reach all of the faithful, & they measure their success by their ability to get as many souls on earth in to heaven as possible. Sometimes, this requires them to tell people things they don't like, and may not even want to hear...yet they do it neways, without fear

[@andrea9264]

Hey Fr. Barron, what about communion in the hand?

[@sacredheartwinchester217]

I'm wondering why so many people who disagree with Catholic teachings or who harbor resentment against the Catholic Church watch Fr. Barron's videos or subscribe to this channel. Surely you have better things to do than to flame on KZbin.

[@timspangler8440]

SacredHeart Winchester One must agree to watch? Strange.

[@sacredheartwinchester217]

Tim Spangler That's not what I wrote. I wondered why people who disagree with teachings watch the videos and then flame.

[@sacredheartwinchester217]

***** I'm sorry, but I didn't understand your reply. If you are saying that non-believers should be able to watch, too, that isn't what I wrote. I wondered why non-believers watch and then make unpleasant comments. Naturally, anyone who appreciates intellectual stimulation would appreciate Fr. Barron's work.

[@bagobeans]

+SacredHeart Winchester You will find a lot of those who disagree follow the KZbin priests to just challange them. This people always say horrible things or challange with some form of scripture. It's what they do.

[@bagobeans]

***** I have no idea what you are rambling about?

[@dynamic9016]

Thanks much for this video.

[@CoryTheRaven]

You could never thank them enough... nor would you ever pay them enough, by the sounds of things.

[@mikewilliams6025]

Thank God for all of us that the Holy Spirit is the police officer and the umpire of the Eucharist! May we all one day unite under His authority instead of being spectators in the stands.

[@CoryTheRaven]

I wasn't talking about sharing the Gospel. I was talking about people who make a presumption of their own authority to tell people what to think and what to do. That not only includes the Popes, but people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, as well as countless leaders from every other religion and political party. Now you ask what right I have to criticize people who intend to police my thoughts? What right have they to police them?

[@CoryTheRaven]

"if you are agreeing that you and lutherans agee in transubstantiation..." I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse, or if the concepts I'm raising are so new and alien to you that you just cannot wrap your mind around them. I'm not sure how I can word them any more simply than I already have. If you find any part of all those references I gave you confusing (because surely you read them), I can try to help clarify them for you.

[@CoryTheRaven]

Prefer: "1 : to promote or advance to a rank or position; 2 : to like better or best" Require: "1 a : to claim or ask for by right and authority; 2 a : to call for as suitable or appropriate; b : to demand as necessary or essential : have a compelling need for; 3 : to impose a compulsion or command on" It looks to me like those two words have two different definitions.

[@tigglebitty65]

Off the top of my head, 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 & also 40 I believe.

[@752wayne]

The idea of “real presence” was a real difficult thing for me to understand. I was misled in college by my world religions Prof. Who did not differentiate between transubstantiation and transformation. The Prof. said the the bread transforms into meat. Through research I came to understand this is incorrect. With regular bread the purpose of the bread is to nourish the body. When the substance (the vary purpose) of the bread changes in the Eucharist it nourishes the soul.

[@CoryTheRaven]

I'm not sure how any of this contradicts what I said about every person deciding for themselves what they do or do not believe, including Catholics. As for your screed on Lutheranism, you're making a pretty bold assertion that the RCC even EXISTED at the beginning (rather than evolving over history into what it is today), that "apostolic succession" is even a thing, and that holy orders are necessary to celebrate the eucharist...

[@bigphilly7345]

This is an excellent video.

[@CoryTheRaven]

"Mechanics" in the sense of how exactly Jesus' body and blood are present in the sacrament while it still maintains all the physical attributes of bread and wine.

[@CoryTheRaven]

My pastor has earned the right to give me advice by being in relationship with me. What gets my hackles up about the assumption of authority is the liberty of telling people what they ought to think and do without knowing anything about them. When the Pope says that women can't be priests because it doesn't fit their rules, or Richard Dawkins says I can't like science and be a Christian because it doesn't fit his rules, then the only reasonable response is to dash their rules...

[@catholic5330]

Can you please comment on the matter of true faith and what Father Barron is teaching? I do not see anything below except hatred and "quarreling among you"... Teach, rather than preach, to get a message across - teaching in FULL understanding of the teachings of JESUS CHRIST... aka LOVE one another and prepare for your chance to stand in front of HIM and answer for your actions acting as his disciple

[@tigglebitty65]

Well most importantly Priest's "transform" bread into the body and blood of Christ for us, and they can also hear confessions,& say funeral masses amongst other things, where deacons cannot do those specific things, but can do all of the other things I already listed.

[@CoryTheRaven]

That is EXACTLY it. What makes one person happy and fulfilled is not what makes another person happy and fulfilled, which is why the impersonal imposition of abstract authority is inherently oppressive. For those priests who choose celibacy as a gift, that is AWESOME. NOTHING is being taken away from them. But there are also lots of married men, and women, who would make fantastic priests who are barred from that calling because of a man-made rule.

[@CoryTheRaven]

1) That's a common misconception. We actually don't take any particular side on that debate, because the issue is that, ultimately, no one can really know HOW the Real Presence is possible, only that it is. 2) And if you dissect what a Sacrament is supposed to be (i.e.: instituted by Christ) then that whole debate opens up. The issue of Papal authority concerning the Eucharist is basically this: no one can actually know HOW Christ is Really Present...

[@tigglebitty65]

Hi Fr. Barron,just a quick question. As Catholics, we're always taught that we're members of the one true church established by Jesus Christ, which is of course a wonderful thing:). However, do you think we are prohibited from fully loving our protestant friends when we boast about this? Pope Francis has made many references about loving all of Gods children. Do you feel that such statements are devisive or contrary 2 our obligation 2 love our neighbors "as fully" as God intends for us 2?

[@CoryTheRaven]

We do exactly what Christ asked. Lutheranism holds to a sacramental view of the eucharist. The only thing that makes us different from Catholicism (so different that Catholics exclude us from partaking) is that we don't presume to make assertions about HOW Christ is Really Present. We just celebrate that He is. The matter really has less to do with following Christ and more to do with recognizing the temporal authority of the Pope. Of course, Catholics see that as one-in-the-same.

[@CoryTheRaven]

Which is all fine so long as it is voluntary. The insistence that one must choose between Holy Orders and Holy Matrimony is a false dilemma, regardless of what Paul feels is advisable. Asserting this false dilemma in indifference to the calling of the individual person, imposing upon them a set of rules based on what works best for the Catholic ecclesiastical business model, is exactly the sort of brute exercise of impersonal authority that I've been complaining about.

[@joanmaltman9580]

This is one sermon that should be repeated over and over. The Blessed Sacrament is so abused. A friend and I were discussing the number of times we have seen the Blessed Sacrament dropped, carried waving in the hand, put into handbags. The devil is gaining ground and gloating. We have pray for the Church and its members.

[@CoryTheRaven]

"And you're telling me that the Pope is a bad guy because he doesn't subscribe to this culture of consumerism that we live in today?" To dismiss actual human beings as being some amorphous "culture of consumerism" is a very large part of my problem with the kind of authority I've been speaking of. Women, and gay people, and married people with the call to ordained ministry, and childless couples are not a "culture of consumerism." They are PEOPLE.

[@hglundahl]

9:16 How far into the past? 24 hours or 23 h 55 minutes, granted. Do you believe in longer travel times for star light and longer distances for it to travel than 1 light day? Why?

[@CoryTheRaven]

Lutherans also believe in the holy catholic and apostolic church. It's right there in the Ecumenical Creeds. As I've explained to you already, from the Lutheran perspective, it is the doctrine of transubstantiation that is the departure from the early Church and teachings of Christ, not our rejection of transubstantiation. I'm starting to wonder if this is a debate about transubstantiation anymore and not a discussion of how much you don't understand about Lutheranism.

[@tigglebitty65]

Honestly it sums it up pretty well in 1 Corinthians 7:32-35...Catholic Priests make a promise or a vow to remain celibate because they would be unable to devote their full attention towards their calling to serve the Lord, and likewise they would be equally unable to to devote their full attention to a wife and/or a family while fulfilling all of their Priestly obligations and duties.

[@CoryTheRaven]

My comparison is strictly the comparison of people with no cognizance of a person's life presuming to tell them what to think and do. I'm not comparing Catholics to Atheists because of animosity towards Catholics. I'm comparing people who police people's thoughts to other people who police people's thoughts. No part of policing a person's thoughts has anything to do with the Gospel. The Gospel always meets people where they are, otherwise it is not the Gospel.

[@CoryTheRaven]

"Voluntary" meaning that you leave it up to the individual priest as to whether they choose a life of celibacy or matrimony. As for "faith," yes, it absolutely is a faith. But I am not so naive as to think that there aren't more pragmatic concerns in churches either. The Holy Spirit may kindle our hearts, but He doesn't pay the heating bill. It's weird, but natural I suppose, that you seem to think that the RCC's business model is the sort of Church Jesus would want.

[@CoryTheRaven]

2) You bet that unjustified presumption of authority gets my dander up. I think you're still missing what I've been saying though: Lutherans and Catholics agree on the fundamental fact of the Real Presence. What we disagree on are philosophical formulations of HOW Christ is Really Present, any of which rely on presumption of human authority over the promise of Christ.

[@CoryTheRaven]

I'm not dodging anything. On the contrary, I'm the only one of us who is really cutting to the heart of the matter, which is whether the Pope has authority to declare a philosophical formulation for how Christ is Really Present in the Sacrament. As for attempting to pull the Church Fathers to your side, you still don't get it. I, like all Lutherans, TOTALLY AGREE that Jesus' body, blood, soul and divinity are in the Sacrament. What you and I disagree on is the philosophical formulation of HOW.

[@CoryTheRaven]

Only 3 days ago and you've already forgotten? Okay, some of Bill's greatest hits: "Furthermore, unlike Pastors, Priests don't have wives and children that to take care of before they take care of their parishioners...which is a "huge" gift for the parishioners, and a tremendous amount of work 4 the priests." And then you went on for a couple posts about how pastors live in fear of having to tell congregations what they want to hear in order to fund these $10M houses you seem to think they have

[@FaithandReason101]

when did lutheranism begin? 1500's? check what the early church father's taught the "true presence of the Eucharist meant." it lines up exactly with the catholic church's position of the Eucharist. Transubstantiation. further, in 105 A.D. the disciple of john the apostle (ignatius of antioch) did in fact say that the early church was "the catholic church."

[@CoryTheRaven]

Then what is the distinction? I assume there must be some substantive difference if "ordained" deacons are not priests.

[@timspangler8440]

"I am the bread of life" Did he become bread when he said that? Is it not striking how similar the wording is to "This is my body", whereby some believe that the bread becomes worthy of worship.

[@Ekim1740]

Tim Spangler Well, God is all powerful. Like in the time of Moses bread fell down from heaven, in the New testament the bread of life is being given every day in all apostolic Churches. Just like in the Old testament where the JEWS eat the real flesh of the LAMB, in the new testament Church we eat the real flesh of the LAMB OF GOD who is Jesus. You are just like the other disciples of Christ who did not believe in Jesus' words in John 6. You have faith but your faith is dead.

[@timspangler8440]

Michael Z Judge much? Dude, you are a puppet.

[@UnratedAwesomeness]

It is an explanation of how it could be that the bread is really the body. It doesn’t mean that everything Jesus says becomes so, only that this is the method of how it could be.

[@tigglebitty65]

..and please, don't get me wrong...I fully understand that "saving people" and "selling the gospel" can certainly be worth A LOT of money, and frankly there are plenty of people who've gotten rich off of trying to do just that..I just won't apologize for NOT belonging to a church who's leadership isn't "paid a lot" is all...

[@tigglebitty65]

"Why CAN'T a priest be married?" ...lol:)....if you are sincere, in truly wanting to know the answer....then there is really only one way to find the truth. You have to ask yourself "Why?".....why would someone be so "selfless" What could compel someone to do that??? It won't happen over night..but if you truly ponder and study, why Priests have the fortitude to do what they do..you will find the answer to your question.

[@CoryTheRaven]

...For Lutherans, the problem was not with the belief that Christ's body and blood are truly present in the Sacrament. The problem was with what they felt to be Aristotelian pseudo-philosophy that was writing itself overtop of the simple promise of Christ that He is present in the Eucharist. From the Lutheran perspective, it is the RCC that strayed by devotion to Aristotelianism and by rejecting the doctrine of transubstantiation they were actually RECLAIMING the Real Presence...

[@CoryTheRaven]

You didn't answer my question, and completely ignored what I pointed out to you about Apostles and disciples.

[@tigglebitty65]

Becoming a Priest is obviously a tremendous decision....it's not a 40 hour a work week type of a "profession," but rather a calling that for some men, simply cannot be ignored. Those who have this particular calling and who choose to pursue it, also choose to live a celibate lifestyle like Christ did, and St. Peter did as well. Others who have a different calling, towards Holy Matrimony, but who also wish to preach, and offer a few other sacraments to the parishioners often become deacons.

[@timspangler8440]

Can a Catholic please tell me what this means? "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?' Jesus answered, "the Work of GOD is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent"(John 6:29)

[@timspangler8440]

***** Good luck with not sinning. Are you serious? Obviously we ALL sin...EVERY day. The ONLY remedy is forgiveness...not for each individual sin...heck, we don't even know of or identify all the sin we do. We must be covered by the blood.

[@timspangler8440]

***** At least trying is complete folly. It is ONLY trusting in Jesus. Unless and until you understand the verse below, and the many like it, you will understand nothing: "Seek first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousnesss....'

[@timspangler8440]

***** You cant get your head around it because you are on a completely different team. You are trying to establish YOUR righteousness and he says "Seek first the Kingdom of God and HIS righteousness..." This is why he says to do this FIRST. Because it's IMPOSSIBLE to understand Scripture unless you seek HIS righteousness

[@Ekim1740]

Tim Spangler Another protestant who disregards other verses and hold on to one verse for his doctrine. "24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24. Anyways, only stupid man will think that God will save him because he have faith in God. If that's the case then God should have just told the Old covenant people the same gospel as the protestants telling now. God should have not given 10 commandments to Moses since by faith of Israelite to Yahweh they are already saved. But it is not the case. Only a heretic from 1500s spoke about this very Unchristian and Unjewish teaching.

[@timspangler8440]

Michael Z That I posted this Scripture means I disregard all others? Lie much Michael?

[@CoryTheRaven]

Just as you seem to enjoy imposing rules out of nowhere. On what substantive basis should a woman be denied the priesthood? It obviously cannot be the social customs of 2000 years ago, since we're chatting on a computer right now. On what substantive basis should a priest be denied marriage? Church leaders being married - including "Pope" Peter I - is specifically mentioned in the New Testament.

[@audradietz]

So cool

[@CoryTheRaven]

Also, on what historical evidence are you basing the assertion that Peter was celibate?

[@CoryTheRaven]

Yes, what Paul considers advisable. If you actually READ 1 Cor. 7, Paul isn't laying out hard rules about how Christians must live. He is very equivocal in it, articulating his view that it is BEST for Christians to remain unmarried and celibate (because the Church was in the midst of persecutions and expecting the Second Coming any day now... why bother getting married when there may be no tomorrow?), but he doesn't say that Christians MUST remain unmarried and celibate...

[@CoryTheRaven]

...Ultimately, though, it's not MY problem... It's YOURS. I'm a Lutheran, so it doesn't really, fundamentally matter to me what bone the RCC chokes on. But I don't think this imposition of arbitrary authority for the sake of imposing it is doing any favours to the RCC. It's totally understandable why the mainline Protestant churches are having a vocations crisis: we barely have any members, period. How is it that RCC is having a vocations crisis when you have SO MANY members?...

[@CoryTheRaven]

"...have the privilege of knowing that the message isn't being delivered from someone who's trying to build a 10 million dollar house..." I thought the Vatican cost much more than that. No member of the RCC is in any place to criticize any other church for its habits of grubbing for money. One of Martin Luther's big problems was how the RCC made a whole theological business model out of picking people's pockets.

[@CoryTheRaven]

A typically Catholic response: don't answer a question, but turn it back accusingly on the person who asks it, as though it is beyond all faith and reason to question anything the Catholic Church does. I do not object to priestly celibacy so long as it is a commitment made by the volition of the individual priest. To insist that a priest must, by definition, be celibate is an imposition of impersonal external authority, and THAT'S what I have a problem with...

[@CoryTheRaven]

Or to be more precise, we don't disagree on HOW: we disagree that HOW can be known. You think it can, on the basis of the Pope's claims to authority. I think it can't, on the basis that it is a Divine mystery and that doesn't really matter anyways because it takes our eyes off of what really matters, which is that He IS present. Given the choice between putting my faith, trust and hope in the promises of Christ or the declarations of the Pope, you better believe I'll side with Christ.

[@CoryTheRaven]

That article is irrelevant, because that's not the issue here.

[@tigglebitty65]

Jesus had and still has many followers, a few of which where and are disciples, &12 of which were "appointed" by him as apostles, who were all men.

[@CoryTheRaven]

So then a deacon is not the same as a priest and therefore you cannot draw equivalence between a married deacon and an unmarried priest. Thank you.

[@tigglebitty65]

It always make's me crack a smile and chuckle when I see Lutherans getting soo hot under the collar about the Pope lol:)....I don't think I'll ever understand how a faith that can AGREE "so nearly, with us Catholic's"....on sooo many things, can manage to harbor so much animosity towards us?? .....What's the deal my friend??....& what has Pope Francis ever done to offend you?? ...& if you don't "adhere to a strict doctrine"...then...what do you "adhere" 2??...are you loosely connect 2 ur faith?

[@CoryTheRaven]

Ah, I'll put that into the "so new and alien" category. Let me see if I can help you here: The doctrine of transubstantiation was never fully defined until the Council of Trent. The term itself was never used until the 11th century, and even then it was only used in the Western Church. The RCC felt it necessary to define the term as a reaction against Protestants noticing that something fishy was going on...

[@CoryTheRaven]

1) Not as many though, for some reason. 2) But there is no option to be both a good Catholic and a married priest. He (and indeed, it is only "he") is forced into a false dilemma that exists for no good reason, but someone in a large hat says it must be so. As for there being no Church of Christ without the Pope, you're apparently mistaken. There's lots of Christians running around all Popeless, outside of the human ecclesiastical institution of the RCC.

[@CoryTheRaven]

I don't have to ponder, for two reasons. The first is that I do know someone who became a nun. Second, that actually has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Pumping up the virtues of becoming a nun has no relevance to the issue of whether or not women should be allowed to become priests.

[@CoryTheRaven]

It's always kind of funny to see people who think you're stupid because what you said just went shooting over their heads. Reading all of 1 Cor. 7 in context is exactly what *I* was talking about. The conflict I pointed out only evolves when it is read YOUR way. As for Luther's Bible, by all means, please show me where it has been redacted anywhere except the Apocrypha.

[@tigglebitty65]

You said Priests are forced "into a false dilemma that exists for no good reason"....and this article is relevant, because it shows they are neither forced into anything, and that it does in fact serve very good reasons...which is what the entire article is about lol...

[@tomgreene8480]

Note he does not say physically.

[@mifsk008]

Nowhere in scripture do we find this teaching. We see scriptures refer to the elements as the body and blood, but we also see Jesus clearly stating that the words He was speaking were spiritual words when talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood: "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."(John 6:63). He did not say they were literal words; that is, He did not say that they were His actual body and blood. But, a Catholic might object and say that Jesus clearly said, "This is My blood . . . " and "This is my body . . . " This is true, but Jesus frequently spoke in spiritual terms: "I am the bread of life," (John 6:48); "I am the door," (John 10:7,9); "I am the resurrection and the life," (John 11:25); "I am the true vine," (John 15:1), etc. In the context of John 6, Jesus is telling His disciples that they must eat His body and blood (John 6:53). He clearly says He was speaking in spiritual terms, " . . . the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63).

[@deusx13]

are you implying that the church elders from the days of the apostles got it all wrong? the Eucharist was celebrated from the earliest days. might i suggest you read up on the practices of the early church?

[@kevinjboconnor]

I interpret that to mean that Christians are called to live a life of spirit rather than worldly "flesh" lives. One part of living that life is the Eucharist.

[@tigglebitty65]

The reason why some woman, give all of those things up, to become a nun, is because their religious vocation & their relationship with God fulfills them MORE than the fulfillment that they might otherwise have achieved through married life....The same is true for Priests. Furthermore, unlike Pastors, Priests don't have wives and children that to take care of before they take care of their parishioners...which is a "huge" gift for the parishioners, and a tremendous amount of work 4 the priests.

[@FaithandReason101]

when you state there was no precedent, you set yourself up to be given the example of St. Paul. i didnt say it was an absolute requirement. in fact, some rites within the catholic church do have married clergy.

[@CoryTheRaven]

...That is why Lutherans do not reject transubstantiation on the grounds that we have concocted some better philosophical explanation for the mystery of the Real Presence. What we reject is the VERY ACT OF CONCOCTING PHILOSOPHICAL EXPLANATIONS OF A DIVINE MYSTERY. Conversely, we also reject the view that Eucharist is merely a symbol, which is even worse than transubstantiation because it denies the Divine mystery and promise of Christ altogether...

[@CoryTheRaven]

Neither of those passages say that Peter was celibate.

[@tigglebitty65]

Oh my bad...disciples, excuse me:p lol....how many of his 12 disciples were women there friend?...and what were there names and when and where did Jesus refer to those females as "disciples" in the scriptures??....I must have missed that part...

[@CoryTheRaven]

Amen Martin! It's just too bad the Catholics won't let us!

[@ThisGruntled]

not trying to argue, but seek understanding, when Jesus says some things its taken as hyperbolic or symbolic or as parables, and in some cases its taken as literal or reality changing as claimed here, how do we know the difference?

[@blablabubles]

you need the help of tradition

[@ThisGruntled]

blablabubles ok? what does that mean? how did you come to this conclusion?

[@blablabubles]

ThisGruntled Well you could interpret Christs words or anything in scripture however you like (i think on careful examination the Catholic reading becomes clear but with effort you can take it any way you like). So how do we know which interpritation of the bible is correct when it doesnt interpet itself? well Jesus did not leave us without an answer. The answer is Tradition and the visible church What is tradition? tradition is the visible and clear voice of the Spirit of Truth in the Church throughout the ages. This teaching does not and cannot change because truth does not change. The Church is the temple of the Holy Spirit so it speaks through its prayers, saints, holy teachers, councils, bishops, popes, rituals, ect. when it comes to the real presence of Christ in the eucharist; we can see it being taught since the very beginning, i have collected writings from the very beginning in chonological order: Ignatius of Antioch (110 AD) "Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]). Justin martyr (151 AD) We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]). Nicaea I (325 AD) "It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]" (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]). St. Ambrose of Milan (390 AD) "Perhaps you may be saying, ‘I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?’ It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ" (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]). Pope Leo the Great (461 AD) "When the Lord says: 'Unless you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man and shall have drunk His blood, you shall not have life in you,' you ought to so communicate at the Sacred Table that you have no doubt whatever of the truth of the Body and the Blood of Christ. For that which is taken in the mouth is what is believed in faith; and in do those respond, 'Amen,' who argue against that which is received." So it is clear that the early christians believed it. do you?

[@onetruefaith2091]

Put yourself in Jesus shoes repeating 4 times a "hard" teaching to shocked Jewish followers without correction. Would you not back it up with some form of "evidence"? Read John 6:62 in proper context as Jesus backs up what He says with evidence. Come to believe in the real presence. God's blessings.

[@tigglebitty65]

Additionally, because the Priests have no wives, and no children to "support"...they also have "no fear" when it comes to preaching either. For example, a Priest who gives a sermon about the existence of hell might scare some of the people listening, but if they don't come back to church the following Sunday, it won't affect his pay, or his ability to buy his children close, his wife a puse, or his ability to pay for his house...because he's not preaching to support any one, like Pastors do.

[@CoryTheRaven]

You're missing the point. That some priests are totally cool with being celibate is not at issue. What is at issue are all those barred from ordained ministry because of rules that exist for no good reason... Which I should clarify, no BIBLICAL reason.

[@CoryTheRaven]

The Catholic Church does have a unique way of placing proscriptions on people and declaring them to be gifts. Nothing is a "gift" when everything else is denied to a person. It is no great gift to offer the convent when denying the pulpit, nor to offer celibacy when denying matrimony, nor to "love" gay people while denying them rights.

[@FaithandReason101]

but you still are left with Ignatius of antioch in 105 a.d. calling the early church "catholic." that is something neither lutherans nor orthodox can claim. further, as regards the eucharist, you've stated clearly that the basis for lutheranism's doctrine, the Augsburg documents make it clear that it does not hold to Transubstantiation; that IS a departure from the early christian church, and a departure from Christ's teachings in the Gospel of John.

[@FaithandReason101]

here's my point. you said that you believe in the "true presence" Those words meant transubstantiation for the first 1500 years of christianity to all christians. in the last 500 years, that definition has been limited to catholics, orthodox, and high anglicans. you say lutherans dont believe in transubstantiation as part of your beliefs-(reference augsburg), but YOU believe in the "true presence," body blood, soul and divinity. the issue is that you are doctrinally contradicting yourself.

[@CoryTheRaven]

...FaithandReason01 was actually right that I have a problem with authority, or more precisely, the pretension of authoritarianism. I find it demeaning to be told what to think by anybody, regardless of their age, skin colour or hat size. I don't care if it's Pope Francis or Richard Dawkins. In regards to strict doctrines, what I said is that I don't adhere to the strict doctrine of transubstantiation. I am a hardcore Sacramentalist though. I just don't trouble with philosophical formulations.

[@CoryTheRaven]

And the notion that your average congregational minister is living in a $10 million house like a televangelist is also a common misconception amongst those who are ignorant. (BTW, ground broke on St. Peter's Basilica in 1506, the Apostolic Palace in 1589, and the Sistine Chapel in 1473, so not 1000 years ago, and unsurprisingly right at the same time as everyone out in the Northern European boonies were splitting off from the RCC because they were tired of being extorted for money)