WotC's Biggest Mistakes: Thassa's Oracle is Powercreep Incarnate

[@GraakosIndeed]

The thing that's wild to me is that Maro explicitly said that without the "win the game" clause, they felt Th-oracle didn't feel "rare" to them. The cognitive dissonance of "Blue rares win the game" and "White rares draw one card a turn if specific conditions are met" is nonsensical.

[@SingerOfW]

You're thinking of the wrong Mark.

[@Meldon44]

That white one was rare for one very simple reason: They knew people have been clamoring for it, so making it a chase rare would sell packs. In a couple years when they've milked the "we're fixing white" gig enough, we'll start getting that same effect at uncommon to make room for white's version of broken shit.

[@RodrigoCML7]

Regarding the flavor issue, I always drew parallels to the Oracle of Delphi’s in that Kings and warriors would go to her to know the path to victory. Hence the wincon if you have learned all that you need in order to win (drew your entire deck).

[@dailyntimm4438]

learnd all that can be learned in orderto win. I like that

[@ratatataraxia]

She was the oracle of Apollo, Delphi was just the city.

[@PatJamma]

My theory is that Thassa's Oracle was gonna be just been a cracked version of Sea Gate Oracle. But they decided (probably rightfully so) that looking at cards off the top equal to devotion to blue and putting 1 in your hand was waaaaaaaay too strong and last minute changed it to the effect we know it as now without much testing and probably zero testing in eternal formats like every other card of this era

[@cephalosjr.1835]

This is apparently incorrect. It was originally going to be what it is now, just without the “you win the game” stuff. Then the designer of the card, contrary to the advice of other designers, changed it.

[@LichlordP]

For me, Mechanized Production is the perfect example of a "Win the Game" card. It requires you to build around it and still gives value even when you aren't actively winning the game, but is still interactive to *some* degree. White, green, and red decks are still able to effectively interact with it while cards like Thoracle are just uninteractive and unfun.

[@lancelot717]

@Timothy Owens I dont even have to call you a timmy, your mother saved me the time lmao. If the only way you can have fun is making winning a ""game"" as braindead as possible maybe you should find a better hobby because people that play magic are going get tired of you really fast.

[@panga910317]

@Timothy Owens Ahhh we found the sweaty tryhard!

[@fernandotanigushi8310]

Even labman is more interactive, destroying it just makes it's controller lose the game. Thassa's oracle doesn't give a fuck

[@XtraBees]

@@lancelot717 I mean CEDH is built around fast efficient wins. I don't sit down and thoracle casual players or even optimized lists. Only time theres ever an overlap if theres a payed league, and at that point if you lose and you aren't playing a CEDH list thats just your own fault.

[@lancelot717]

@@XtraBees Funny you use CEDH as an example because at the very least its 100 card singleton so the odds thats going to be your only win piece and actually be able to abuse it are slimmer than literally anything else.

[@DangerKennyB]

Thassa's Oracle/Consult = an overwhelming win percentage at EDH tables Sheldon: "lEt'S bAn GoLoS"

[@jordanlyons3542]

My least favorite part of Thassa’s Oracle is that unlike “broken” and “ban worthy” combos like splinter twin, even instant speed removal is not useful. If I designed Oracle the scry would be etb and then the card would have text “If you scry for a number of cards greater or equal than the number of cards in your library, you win the game”. That way if you bolt in response to the scry trigger, they don’t win.

[@oldpoetmen]

The funniest, smallest part of Thoracle’s power creep, to me, is just the fact that it’s *also* just a decent tempo 2-drop, that, even outside of a combo, still lets you scry at least 2. It feels, like a lot of Magic cards lately (notably, a lot of ramp spells over the past few years), *over*-designed, a card that’s just too good at all stages of the game, and has had all possible weaknesses or downsides to it shaved off by committee. Frankly, I’ve gotten really tired of the “FIRE” philosophy leading to over-thought designs like Thoracle, because now decks are so full of streamlined, powerful threats that require such specific answers, that not having the answer to any *one* of them right away could snowball games *wildly* out of control immediately, which just makes for a miserable gameplay experience. (Though, I’m also a sociopath who loves Approach of the Second Sun, so maybe take my opinion with a grain of salt, lmao)

[@SoulsOnly]

This is to prevent the "feelsbad" from a bad topdeck.

[@er00ic]

I honestly run it in an EDH deck headed by Thassa, Deep Dwelling where I can't even win with it just because I like the scry-like effect.

[@charliemallonee2792]

Without the win condition, it would still be a fairly good cantrip on a merfolk if it had drawn the card. It wouldn’t be broken, but a merfolk deck might want it anyway.

[@enjaded7222]

cast turn 2, git land drops, block ragavan, use to trigger tymna, use while ur topdecking to set up what u need if ur living off the top... pretty good effect for a card that was supposed to be a wincon

[@johnromero6315]

@@SoulsOnly I'd say that if you are consistently getting bad top-decks, then your deck is probably poorly put together. Frankly, a 2 drop shouldn't be very relevant on turn 10 (not on its own, anyway)

[@simpleb645]

As a almost exclusively cEDH player, thank you for helping explain the stagnation that goes into including this as the best A+B combo piece in every UBx deck. Personally my play group tends to advocate for the instant speed exile your library (Demonic Consultation & Tainted Pact) to be banned, but your point on overall design still rings true.

[@noehonegger4624]

Honestly id argue for the exact opposite i think thoracle is the problem its way more abusable the forbidden tutors have use outside of i win the game thoracle can be abused in breach lines orvar lines i know not the most wide appliance. The tutors can be a risky way to safe the game work with food chain and at least around one you need to somewhat build your deck around. And all these lines are more interactive than thoracle

[@adammorin2955]

Honestly the problem is thassa’s oracle. No one cares about the forbidden tutors. Ban breach and thassa’s oracle cedh will be a better healthy formate

[@adammorin2955]

@Josh C. but thassas oracle can go off with breach and other cards! It’s thassa’s oracle that’s the issue.

[@adammorin2955]

Then ban breach as well? Cause the forbidden tutors and breach both go with oracle

[@adammorin2955]

That’s why I said ban oracle since it’s better to ban 1 card then 3

[@andrewhill1982]

I think if the devotion had to be higher to win, or if Thoricle had to be on the battlefield when the trigger resolved to win, so that if you removed Thoricle it actually mattered, it would have been much more reasonable card, but still very powerful. As it is now, it's just obnoxious.

[@julianlastname5730]

The flavor of Oracle to me is that once you can see the whole future, or the whole game (your whole deck) you can’t lose

[@TransformersBoss]

Even if you have no future

[@sadrobot5501]

@@TheFallenA But you have to count on the fact you WON'T always have the perfect counter at that moment, while also devoting your resources to stop other 3 players from executing their wincons (considering we see Oracle play a bigger role in EDH). So yeah, the "Can be Countered" argument is not enough to asess this situation.

[@douglima8344]

@@TheFallenA such a lazy argument

[@zamm4519]

This is the best flavor I have heard for the card so far

[@oceansforce]

@@TheFallenA Ok cool, 1 colour out of 5 can deal with it, that’s super fun for all non blue players

[@Superbajt]

In article named WORD HEIST: A THEROS BEYOND DEATH CAPER on the Mothership, they explicitly said that Thassa's Oracle didn't have the wincon text originally, but with the wincon it became a pet card of the lead designer.

[@ahigherplace1542]

Reminder that the guy who created this card literally had no idea how to make the card feel like a rare. So the best he could come up with was just slapping "Win the Game" on it, and he patted himself on the back and called it a day.

[@Omenshaper]

There's no way that's true, is there an article I can read that says that?

[@elipetrou9308]

No way

[@Tacklepig]

@@Omenshaper I remember dimly that there was a comment to this effect in the post-release article on Theros Beyond, yeah.

[@alexdiotto]

source?

[@silverdeathgamer2907]

Make it triple blue and a 1/4 and look at cards equal to your devotion and then put two cards into your hand and it could be mythic rare, give it flash if needed.

[@GhostTradingDane]

I think if thassa's didn't have "or equal to" in the text it would would be less problematic. Alot of early consultation plays has thassa's oracle as the only devotion on their field. If killing it stopped them half the time I'd call it fine

[@ewanhiddleston6642]

For me the biggest issue of Thoracle is the trigger rather than the cost. There's so few ways to interact with it and the more consistent options are blue so of course it homogenises the format. You need to counter it or stifle it or discard then exile it or race the most efficient wincon in the format or stax them out of the game. Even the 'draw a card in response' way to beat it can be worked around by leaving a card or two on top in some cases, but I have to say the true mystery is why it works with 0 devotion, like why? I have friends who play with me and pull this out just to finish off games, but while I can play high power levels of EDH, I don't play cEDH. I like the story of the game. Thassa's Oracle turns thats story into 'well I could have won at anytime, but I allowed you to live, but ultimately it was all pointless', it turns Lab Man's valid lesson of 'Play Removal' into 'Play the most extreme version of Blue', it turns joyful chaos into proscribed allotments of allowable fun. I mean, it's the game I guess, but it's just a bit meh (Btw can you ask find out why EDH has this, but not Coalition Victory from Sheldon or Olivia?)

[@thestralspirit]

When I first read the card I practically did a double take. I couldn't believe that "you win the game" was on the card at all. I never really liked the card, so I am glad this video exists to put some of my general feelings about it into words.

[@cephalosjr.1835]

The “win the game” clause was indeed added much later in design, because the person who designed the card felt it wasn’t splashy enough. Even other designers thought it was kinda dumb.

[@danielcrowley162]

I love Door to Nothingness, because when I first started playing magic as an 11 year old I thought it was soooooooo broken to just win on the spot, and now many years later that initial wonder has turned to Nostalgia

[@ShinkuDragon]

i always sandbag an angel's grace when playing CEDH. one of the only things that just stops the combo on it's own when not playing blue. i've had some success with endurance too but usually need some help from the table.

[@tylermfdurden]

You know it's too powerful when Najeela decks switched to this as the main win-condition. The 5 color commander that goes infinite with any one of like 10 other cards would rather win with Thoracle... it's silly.

[@CeilingNinja]

I can see a world where the intent was to have a huge blue devotion, to play Thassa, and to win because you've got devotion greater than your cards in library. But it also feels like Oko, in they planned something but didn't think through the entirety of what people would do with it.

[@thaneofstuff7340]

I actually have a Monoblue commander deck that uses it in this way. I won a game with it and about 17 devotion to blue? Gadwick, Future Sight, Leyline of Anticipation, Jace Mirror Mage, Jace Beleren, WAR Jace, Teferi's Ageless Insight, Thought Reflection and stuff like that. Very satisfying way to win the game

[@PleasantKenobi]

Absolutely. I'm actually a little bummed out that I didn't touch on this; Lab Man fits the self mill theme of its set. Thoeacle fits the devotion theme, but its payoff is just too easy to break with "self mill" enablers.

[@jonaswilliams9755]

As a very avid cEDH player, it's disheartening in some regards to have so many games boil down to whether the Oracle player finds their combo before anyone gets their gameplan online. Midrange and more controlling decks have a very hard time surviving when the entire format has to operate around a specific win condition.

[@TransformersBoss]

The best Win Condition is CLEARLY Commander Damage. Dealing 63 damage with my 2/2 Mizzix is definitely my go-to

[@Amgarrak]

I mean, its literally stated by the designers that the 'you win the game' clause was added to oracle because they felt "it was missing a certain je ne sais quoi".

[@ChiralWolf]

I imagine thoracle was just "X equal to devotion" rather than "X greater than or equal to devotion" and it was near impossible to trigger so they FIRE'd it up to make it more playable

[@64MilestotheGallon]

Ok now _that_ would have been much more interesting. Damn, that's a great idea lol. Actually, I think the alt win con wasn't there at all, originally. They thought it was a little underpowered, so they did their best to give it a fighting chance against all the other big bad rares in the set

[@iamfat6164]

honestly i think that the card should just get the first ever universal ban from all recognized formats. It’s Literally just as poorly thought out as the cards locked to only vintage

[@bluedog4248]

The issue I've been noticing is the same issue alrund's epiphany. Where Blue is getting un-interactble powerful effects that can just win outright or give high advantage. Edit: also this is an examplr of wotc being out of touch with older formants that aren't standard. Because in every other format, it's so easy to win with this

[@prollybee]

i love how the answers to blue are always only available to blue 🤦

[@kingfuzzy2]

Non-blue and colourless do have counterspells and effects that stop oracle and other alt wincons

[@prollybee]

@@kingfuzzy2 while technically correct, that's not useful or relevant to most formats

[@ryanmalinowski7529]

I'm sorry, but the card's name around the 18:15 mark is actually "Machine Gun Bastard", not "Walking Ballista". Just had to let you know...

[@Rarian92]

Great video as always, as a cedh player I despise how this card (also with breach from the same set) made winning so damn easy.

[@1tdyer]

I have heard it said that the "win the game" clause on thoracle was added last minute as an impulsive decision. I wish I could remember where I heard that so I could share the source.

[@sirsquiggles1584]

I got to day two on some Arena event. My sealed pool had Approach of the Second Sun, and I used Adventurous Impulse and Quandrix Apprentice to turn it into a two-turn clock : )

[@PhoenixRNH]

I do think it's thematic the look at top x = to devotion and if it's less than blah blah you win because it is like seeing the future and seeing if you're going to win. I think it should have been worded so that if the devotion is 0 you don't win

[@JarLoz]

While I personally don't play competitive formats, I dislike Thassa's Oracle for that flavor/aesthetic aspect you mentioned. The artwork depicts a merfolk inspecting something, and the name "Oracle" makes you think of scrying, of card selection, of blue things like that. Then you are faced with this immense wall of text that describes a somewhat complicated effect... and suddenly in the end you see the line "you win the game". This makes you double back, and go "wait, what?" and then you spend the next few minutes staring at the card, trying to figure out what's happening and how to use it. Compare this to the Lab Man, where the art depicts a crazy dude going off on a crazy experiment, and the short rules text is straight to the point: Do this absolutely crazy thing, and you win. No confusion, you grok the implications immediately.

[@nothisispatrick6528]

My brother just made his first EDH deck and it’s a self mill deck that uses every self mill card mentioned in this video.

[@Tacklepig]

I like Oracle in cube. Building a deck with lots of draw to just churn through and go for an Oracle win is actually really fun. It's not really a fun card in any constructed format, though.

[@PleasantKenobi]

Yeah. Card is cool in Cube.

[@joachimwessmark2601]

Just want to say that I really enjoy these essay videos! Great content as always.

[@lostmarble540]

I play Atemsis, All-Seeing in the 99 of my sphinx edh deck. I have never killed anyone with this card, I don't think I've ever even been close to killing someone with it, but man does it scare people.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Gotta love that thiCC respect

[@JohnDoe-vc5qb]

This is one case where I agree more with the argument that more than pure power-creep, this is a example of WotC not following or knowing the older formats well enough to stop this from happening. They should’ve known that tainted pact and demonic consultation would combo with thoracle. Wizards just seems to have too many oversights like this, another new one is that Drannith magistrate was meant to counter COMPANIONS but instead they forgot the COMMANDER rule and made a card that would straight up not let you play a whole-ass format. I don’t the cards in a vacuum are that toxic but they don’t exist in a vacuum so that’s why we have a problem. Like hell, thoracle and magistrate aren’t even played in standard.

[@omgitsjeromed]

I play a lot of CEDH and I saw thassa Oracle card in this video and had the immediate reaction to pick up my cards to start a new game

[@starmanda88]

Good shit as always PK. You make my favorite commentary videos on mtg. ❤️

[@TerryByte]

I despise Thassa Oracle in everything. Except when I play it in my permanentless Illuna Mutate commander deck :^)

[@kingfuzzy2]

Thanks I hate it

[@roostr20]

I don't get why Wizards seems to think that these 'easy' or 'go-to' type win-cons, like Thoracle or Walking Ballista, are fun. It really homogenizes deckbuilding and gameplay and it's not really fun to lose to the same cards over and over again, or win with the same cards in different decks. I can only think of maybe Spikes who enjoy the gameplay, but don't really enjoy deckbuidling, maybe? I find alternate win-cons can be fun to jank-build around (Hedron Alignment, etc), but when they're too good, too pushed or too general they become less 'alternate' and more just regular wincons in the meta, and therefore a bit problematic.

[@Tacklepig]

I don't think Walking Ballista was meant as a win-con for combo, tbh. The design idea was probably more like "what if Triskelion, but variable", and they didn't even think about the other applications because there's no infinite mana combos in standard.

[@phrozen66]

Its very simple. The card designers and/or testers are simply not very good at their jobs. No other explanation needed.

[@aegisofhonor]

don't forget you can also use Riftsweeper as another card to tuck and get with Demcon or Tainted Pact to then put it on top, draw it in some way, then win on the spot.

[@elliottreadings8029]

Anyone going to that Vegas thingy? That'd be out of my comfort zone I'm terms of location and price, but if anyone does go then I hope you have fun!

[@mbarker_lng]

For some context, I started playing in 1995 (by order of my boss incidentally, since we were developing the first MTG eGame). The modern game is pretty interesting due to all the new mechanics but at the same time, I find it tedious that if feels like every card now has a paragraph of text on it. Each player dutifully reads it off to make the other players aware which slows the game a lot. Things have gotten so complicated, within our group we operate on an honor system- that a person will play their mechanics honestly and correctly because so much is going on no one can track it all (note- we play about 90% Commander too, so the games are longer, 4 person, and tons of stacking effects). PS: Having worked in QA for games, I would say the reason things like the Oracle slip out is the sheer amount of product Wizards is pushing out non-stop doesnt allow for complete play-test. Its like when QAing a MMORPG, each new item or mechanic will have countless interactions with existing items/mechanics and well....stuff gets missed.

[@mn-pegasus]

I’ve been playing lab maniac in a combo modern deck with primal surge, it’s hardcore jank but it’s surprisingly decent

[@darkhydra4262]

In edh, I think its poor design that removal does not counterplay this card. Lab man could be counterplayed with instant speed removal which was plentifully available in all colors in some form. Thoracle demands a *counter* which means your ability to counterplay is severely limited by your colors. My hapatra deck can't do anything about a thoracle barring a few cards that either hurt my deck, are bad in other scenarios, or don't generate fun game experiences.

[@davidlawrence6979]

7:50 and this is precisely why I've fallen off the magic train for over a year and have only come back to build some casual decks with some old pals

[@jsum33]

In cEDH Thoracle is fine. It's TP/DC and the like that need banned. If you can pull off a Thoracle or Lab Man win without them you deserve to win and the pat on the back that follows.

[@jeffwren7815]

Would Thoracle be as bad is it was UUU?

[@benhensley3621]

Oh man, I remember that horse joke.

[@zizthesin]

i play lab man and lab jace in casual self mill, i play thoracle in dedicated thoracle combo decks. What's the difference? locust god with alt win cons (lab man and dragonshift) vs Urza combo cedh

[@breakingtide]

I've never seen it in action but I've heard about oracle 10000x more than I ever heard about Golos..

[@yugioh395]

I didn’t hear a single word you said in the beginning of the video, because that legend of Zelda music SLAPS

[@toctheyounger]

I use the wanking analogy with these win cons too. It grosses people out but its so very accurate. Anyone playing these doesn't need anyone else present to do what they want to do. The whole premise is SO goldfishy.

[@Dayyyjoey26]

I think a vast vast majority of decks that use thoracle in a somewhat fair/fun way will have no problem just throwing in a lab man or that one jace

[@VulcanHeStan]

I have a pair of Oracles as potential WinCons in my Merfolk deck, but one of my family members plays turbofog, and another plays Stax, so I added it to screw with them. I absolutely did replace a pair of Lab Maniacs for them, due to Tribal Tutoring.

[@kraye0789]

Whats the music at the end?

[@bendertusepaki8995]

I'm glad to still have Thassa's Oracle because without it the monkey's ban would have really killed Ad Nauseam in modern.

[@harrison1735]

I once got pulled into a Commander playgroup of strangers because they needed a fourth. We played three rounds and literally every single round was won by someone comboing with Labman except it was a different person each time. So naturally Oracle basically being a better Labman wasn’t endearing itself to me from the day it was previewed.

[@PleasantKenobi]

Don't forget! Go to NordVPN.com/kenobi to get a 2-year plan at a huge discount plus 1 month free. It’s risk free with Nord’s 30 day money-back guarantee!

[@bendertusepaki8995]

You bring Wheeler to talk abour Toracle, but have you ask him what he thinks of Aproach of the second sun? Because his mono-black aproach deck was pretty funny!

[@brendans1983]

Everyone remembers the first time they thought they could stop Thassa with a kill spell. And then the way u are told that's its trigger is still on the stack is priceless. They actually think they are cool 🤮

[@OsamuWuVT]

i get its over powered (i don't even play it have it for basically trade material) but i will admit i've seen some real funny counters to it; my play group did Game plan, learn from the past, cranial archive to just name a few they used is kinda hilarious to me all to stop him from winning with throicle

[@esrohm6460]

from a flavor perspective shouldn't thassa's oracle loose the game if you don't have enough cards in deck. she is forseeing the future and if you have to little cards in deck all she sees is the void of nothingness.

[@SuperMmm90]

11:27 You can’t do that with labotory maniac, you would just trigger another instance of that player winning the game

[@PleasantKenobi]

You can do it with Lab Man as a spell on the stack, similar to how you can do it with Thoracles trigger on the stack.

[@SuperMmm90]

@@PleasantKenobi Well, yes, but one of the few advantages of Lab man is that you don’t have to take that risk; you can cast Lab man first before casting Tainted Pact/Demonic Consultation.

[@tcsmagicbox]

I was trying to make Oracle work in Standard in a mono-blue devotion deck before the pandemic hit.

[@ClubbingSealCub]

Surprised you didn't mention the theros' design document. They state there the they put the 'win the game' line on the card for shits and giggles basically.

[@TheArctus]

While WotC absolutely made the mistake of printing it, this card proves that the Commander Rules Committee or whoever bans cards is a joke. WotC doesn't control commander ban list, and the fact it's been legal this long is embarrassing on the RC's part.

[@TheArctus]

@Todd Packer doesn't really mean anything, everyone knows it's a problem in EDH and complains. This is still legal, and Biorhythm is still banned. And anyone is going to believe these are the best we have for the job? It's embarrassing...

[@kingfuzzy2]

I recommend y'all listen to the mindsculpters interview with Sheldon mennery about the rules committee banning process you'll find it very helpful

[@TheArctus]

@@kingfuzzy2 I will try and find it. That being said, I'll openly admit I dismissed them as knowing more about what is healthy for the format a long time ago. Any group who takes 2+ years to do nothing about a card like Thassa's Oracle is kind of pointless.

[@kingfuzzy2]

That makes a lot of sense and thanks for trying to grow as a person

[@raymondshiner1046]

Great Video Kenobi! A Mentor of mine taught me that it's really easy to be critical, so always try to be charitable first, and I appreciate that you openly talk about what kind of creator you want to be, and how you want to prop up the good stuff that WOTC does! Keep up the great content

[@Flumpor]

Another difference is that jace is a good sidegrade to lab man because he also runs into non-creature hate like force of negation or experience slowdown like Thalia. Thoracle is only really interactable on the stack as a creature and only really runs into issues with other blue decks, which is especially annoying for commander because you cant splash blue to play against thoracle. Even in non-cEDH its a card that brings inherent problems and any game that concludes with thoracle has that feeling of wasted time.

[@mrpinguimninja]

FIRE design is shorthand for "Dumpster Fire" design

[@lynn2201]

Thank you for reminding me of Wheeler's horse joke

[@ahigherplace1542]

You forgot to mention that Thassa's Oracle counts all of your blue devotion, not just the Oracle itself. So you could have more than 0 cards in your deck, with your opponent killing the Oracle with the ability on the stack, which would do nothing if you had other blue permanents on the battlefield

[@JP-tw8ns]

After simian ban that's almost all ad naus has because lightning storm is almost unpayable now

[@123silverslash]

As someone who loves alt win con cards I usually tend to play them in group hug decks and politics style edh decks. Decks that buy me time and nobody wants to kill me because they’re benefiting from my symmetrical boons or want me to start targeting a more threatening player. In a 1v1, I find they’re not as fun or good because your opponent has only the one opponent on their mind that they want to beat. To me, they make the social part of the game way more enjoyable.

[@kingfuzzy2]

I had multiple alt wincons in all of my edh decks until I started building aggro decks a few months ago.

[@whorekitty3270]

I hella agree from a cedh standpoint. She has homogenized a lot of decks main wincon, but the same can be said for underworld breach. I just don't want to see her go in modern. At that point Ad naus I nearly dead, especially after losing lightning storm. If only wotc would print sicking dreams into modern 👀

[@santiagoberkley920]

Woohoo!! Love the intro!

[@mitchelschafer1347]

Is the Zelda music in the creative commons or did kenobi buy it? Hmmm

[@ryanauble4228]

waiting for the inevitable card that reads "if your opponent would win the game they lose instead"

[@gwydionml6479]

Pretty sure the guy getting his spark harvested in the war of the spark promo video was not Jace if that was what you were implying. It was Dack

[@PleasantKenobi]

I'm 100% aware. I hadn't thought that was implied. That's my bad.

[@gwydionml6479]

@@PleasantKenobi not your bad at all! It was just my personal take from how it was edited.

[@shiftyjedi3417]

The point of the card was to reward players for going mono blue. This is the base of Nyx plane. It’s initial power was probably good enough, but it does give it that extra flare. For standard the card was fine and to some extent this should be ok considering it was in a standard product. Magic players have to understand that there are too many cards and too many formats where some cards are going to be too powerful. I actually think Wizards should be honest and release standard cards and say they are banned or restricted in other formats even if it’s upon release.

[@leanin2it]

I think the oracle’s design might have had something to do with how she might interact with the Thassa from that set. If Thassa is blinking her own Oracle every turn for card selection value, then maybe it’ll help the control player stall out the game and eventually finish it. THB also had the Nyx Lotus and together these cards made a benign tier four deck in the format that was still fun to play and try to win with a couple times. It’s a shame that this interaction ended up inadvertently creeping the hell out of the power on this card. I do enjoy drafting the Oracle in some cube decks still!

[@Krunschy]

When talking powercreep it shouldn't go unmentioned just how much better of a failcase the oracle has. Getting to place the best card of your top 2 or more on top or all of them on the bottom is already quite the solid effect for a 2 mana 1/3. Lab Maniac is a 3 mana 2/2 if you just have to play him out.

[@MonsterTeegs]

I'm interested to know from more experienced players, if his card costed UUU, would that make enough of a difference, or any at all?

[@CrimsonHeart1993]

Still would be stronger than most other wincon. The real problem lies in its ability win regardless of board state, how well you played, removal spells on hand, and then wins on etb instead of upkeep, or after another action has been taken. Its really a poorly designed card through and through.

[@timtauber5557]

It would make a reasonable difference, it would still see play.

[@adammorin2955]

The other card that i want to say that shows power creep is underworld breach.

[@HugHeist]

Thassa's is deffinetlt extremely good and powerful, but in cedh, ways to empty your library are fringe outside of the forbidden tutors. Doomsday matches up horribly vs opposition agent which is in just about every black deck. Hermit druid has summoning sickness which is a massive downside. Cephalid breakfast is fine but you have to run a lot of very low quality cards like narcomeba and dread return. I think the forbidden tutors are what push oracle over the edge.

[@danielvanginkel7081]

Regarding whether we're out of the 'over powered cards-woods' or not: we probably will be, as they're making a new Kamigawa set.

[@moephileo63]

Thassa's Oracle from a favor propective, I understand as a win condition because she has complete understanding of the future. As in its intentions it would be achieved via devotion, I concluded with sufficient devotion or prayer she could obtain complete understanding of the future and "win the game" with this achievement.

[@_daze]

16:10 are we out of the woods yet? We could just be in a glade.

[@michaelsander2878]

They should put the names of the people who designed each card on the card or in some sort of searchable database. Just like the artist on the bottom. I'd say the person who designed these cards is actually more important to know than the artist. Let's see who made what.

[@zacschaefer4221]

I play Thorracle in cEDH and every time I play it, a piece of my soul dies as it's not the same as lab man, but why play lab man when it exists? i hate it.

[@rfs8194]

I don't know which card has the best flavor text, but lab maniac is way up there!

[@alecausderbeek5918]

Hey Vince! I loved the video! Thanks :)

[@electrichumbug]

Went straight into my Manaless Dredge build, did not pass go, did not collect 200.

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

I remember a time where people had more respect for lab man/Jace and doomsday decks. Ever since oracle showed up, it’s basically tanked that image for the sake of being “more competitively appealing” and I just find that really unfortunate. I don’t even play against the thing regularly, just the principle of the cards design disappoints me.

[@alphalegion8446]

Im glad there printing cards in the same league as some of the old power house cards, As commander/magic gets more powerful, I hope magic continues to get stronger. Inafew years thassas oracle will be replaced by the next hotness.

[@ZakanaHachihaCBC]

Way you fix the card is easy. Greater then. No more equal to.

[@aceundead4750]

Laboratory Maniac pairs extremely with Leveler

[@codyvaughn7966]

"Survives sudden impact" you have my attention. Oh wait

[@Kay_Drechsler]

Great analysis. I like the video.

[@4lukeification]

Lab mans been played in commander and before that edh. "Cedh" isn't a format the same way "cmodern" isn't a format. Some decks are better than others that doesn't make them fall into a different format.