Would The World Be Better Without Religion? | Ash Sarkar talks to Aaron Bastani

Twenty years ago, it was taken for granted that, globally, people were shrugging off the shackles of organised religion. The world was destined for secularism. But with demographics trends in many countries pointing towards a growing religious population and with secular liberal politics failing to offer solace from falling living standards, we no longer should take this for granted.
Ash is joined by Aaron Bastani, Novara's co-founder to discuss his faith, the socialist interpretation of the gospel and the big guy with the beard - that's right - Karl Marx.
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[@arnoldkotlyarevsky383]

It might have been a more interesting discussion if secular atheism were represented by anything other than the spectre of "new atheism" from twenty years ago.

[@Jim-sf1fd]

to be fair, secular atheism was also represented in this discussion by Marx.

[@deanlowdon8381]

I’m not even totally sure what the so called “new atheism” was/is…

[@arnoldkotlyarevsky383]

@@deanlowdon8381 It was a reaction to rising religious fundamentalism. A few notable figures wrote books and spoke openly about being critical of religion - not just specific doctrines, but religion as a feature of human practice. They spoke plainly, often charismatically, about the shortcomings of the institutions and the consequences of certain articles of faith. It felt bold and dangerous to mostly men of highschool and college age. While none of the ideas were new, in the aftermath of 9/11 it was an interesting distraction from the material causes of the conflicts in the world that continue to plague us to this day. The so-called four horsemen of new atheism were: Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, and Sam Harris. Googling these names along with "debate" or "atheism" will give you a flavor of the zeitgeist on youtube and other online spaces.

[@arnoldkotlyarevsky383]

@@Jim-sf1fd Marx was not really there to defend himself, and as any student of Marx will tell you, it is extremely difficult to represent the man without other leftists decrying you as some kind of counterrevolutionary, Trotrskyite, revisionist or some such.

[@antony558]

This isn’t a debate though, it’s an exploration of faith and politics. Your view doesn’t always need to be at the table

[@MintyFarts]

near the hour mark, her saying "hell yeah I pick and choose". girl.. you are picking your ethics and then working backward to justify your religion and say your religion supports your personal beliefs. you have better morals than ascribed by the religion, you can discard it. you believe in more rights for humans than your religion. you are above it through rational thought and having compassion for other humans.

[@samiiromaar]

But in the case of Ash she's less religious than Aaron. More atheist than not.

[@edwarde8703]

I don’t know how much I agree with Aaron’s argument posing religious movements against racial science and racial essentialism. I feel like in a number of cases religious understandings fed into race science. Arguments that African people were the descendants of Ham for instance syncretised with race science in places like Rwanda. I also feel that while religious values played a heavy role in abolition and anti-slavery discourses from the beginnings of slavery, I don’t think it can be glossed over how much Christianity was also used as a justification for the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

[@PaulMcEvoyGuitars]

I mean, yes. All of this. He's saying legitimately crazy stuff that is totally unsupported by any sort of facts. The fact that they used religious arguments to abolish slavery (but pointedly, not racism) doesn't change the fact that it was religious arguments that justified slavery, for 100s of years. Analogy: if I stick a knife in a bucket and it leaks, then I put the knife back in the bucket to fill the hole, this doesn't mean knives are not sharp.

[@ben-dr3wf]

A purely materialist conception of human nature (which is what atheist naturalism entails) is more dehumanizing than the metaphysics of human nature grounded in the divine good (which is what sensible Christian metaphysics entails).

[@JayeshPatel-ct5ps]

Shashi Tharoor wrote a book called "Why I Am A Hindu" which obviously looks into non Abrahamic philosophy. I dont know whether Novara could get him on.

[@peepshow090]

I don't know about having a religious belief but for myself I hold a code too live by, and that includes respecting and looking for the positives in all of us. Live like you are responsible for your own actions

[@barnichua]

That's it. And don't do to others what you wouldn't like to be done on you.

[@cdean2789]

The 10 commandments says the obvious and half of it is about control.

[@barnichua]

@@cdean2789 I don't work with commandments, but sometimes there are coincidences between the bible and the real life

[@user-mc4fs6jc7w]

Aaron may not have experienced Sectarianism in respect to Northern Ireland. No slight to him but I did and I am now very happy in an atheist country.

[@ZER0--]

What's an atheist country?

[@MrMartyOh]

I am a ‘survivor’ of Northern Irish secularism too. For a long time as a younger man I was very anti organised religion, and to some extent I still am (it seems that when it becomes an organised part of the establishment infrastructure it can be handily instrumentalised by the ruling class.) But a spiritual practice that cultivates gratitude, mutual generosity and solidarity amongst the working classes is what puts the communal in communism. The older you get the more you start to lose people you love, relatives beloved friends. Confronting death without some sense of purpose or plan beyond your own gratification is miserable. Maybe that’s another way of saying that confronting the relentless, anti-life logic of profit profit profit above everything is impossible without some sort of shared spiritual practice.

[@weezersthebluealbum9479]

The amount of hatred whipped up by the Orange Order and their ilk historically and even to this day has permanently turned me off ever being religious, so many good, honest people I know have had their minds completely rotted by hardcore Protestantism leading to violent loyalism.

[@fionaetienne1693]

Thanks for this!

[@jamesthompson9003]

@@ZER0-- Perhaps a non-theistic country? Just we all live in a-astrology based countries, we don't let horoscopes impact governance and policies. Just as we should have a-theistic countries, even if you are a theist

[@uhtredragnorson9930]

Fascinating - I would never have realised you lot are religious. I am amazed. I don’t agree that atheists like me are shallow or somehow lacking. I am a very deep thinker but also a rationalist.

[@richiethepooh6878]

Same here, was shocked when I realised. Would've loved to have been involved in this conversation myself, so many questions

[@CreamedCorn2002]

‘I am a very deep thinker’ sure u are you

[@lambafa]

I think you glossed over an important tension in left wing politics here. Marx, and 20th century figures like Rosa luxembourg, were pretty sceptical about the explicitly 'moral' dimension of left wing poltics, which I think it does borrow a lot of from the christian tradition. What they thought of themselves as aiming at, for better or worse, was not primarily a more 'moral' or a more 'just' society, but a society that was able to deliver the promise of individual and social development which capitalism had brought into view but couldnt deliver. This is pretty different from egalitarian religious politics, and is also something I think the left has largely moved away from (i.e back towards a politics explicitly centred around jutsice/morality)

[@john.premose]

Yes, this is where i come from, philosophically. You can't form a morality based on an essentialist idea, as if morals come from on high and we already know what is right and just in every instance. We should view human development like climbing a mountain. You can't see what is there until you get to the next level. It's no good sitting at the bottom of the mountain and pontificating about what you think it's like at the top. You have to strive to reach the top, and then what to do next will become clear. But until then, you are just speculating on things you know nothing about.

[@john.premose]

@@KnightedBean lol, good one. I notice you left off capitalism. Couldn’t even bring yourself to mention it, could you? Shows where your loyalties really lie, and it’s not in “salvation” lol.

[@john.premose]

@@KnightedBean capitalism was never "merit based" lol. Smh

[@lambafa]

@@KnightedBean You'll notice that I didn't actually use the words 'good' or 'bad', which I don't think are synonymous with morality. If you're saying that Christiniaty doesnt make moral claims I'd be interested to hear why you think that is. On the free market, I actually half-agree with you. The ideal free market is based on trust and fair exchange, that's true I think, even of the relationship between workers and employers. However, the tragedy of capitalist society is that this ideal system has never really come into being because the internal functioning of a market system actually forecloses it as a possibility. When I talk about socialism I'm not commiting myself to some 'ideal' but trying to find a way to overcome that internal contradictions within capitalism.

[@john.premose]

@@KnightedBean lol you are really living in lala land. It amazes me how this mythology has left people believing in the silliest things. The free market was founded by ruthless traders mostly engaged in human trafficking. And you're going to bleat that it was "founded on trust" smh

[@destineerrush2632]

I just have to say I think this is one of the best discussions of religion I've ever seen in a leftist space. It's nuanced, insightful, and refreshing. I'm from the US and have only recently discovered novara, so I'm a bit out of my depth on the UK specific topics, but many of the issues discussed on the channel apply here as well. Novara is rapidly becoming a go-to source for me; keep it up!

[@roscojenkins7451]

Yea same here, man. Found em mid october

[@user-hx2vu2oc3z]

Same here

[@edparry4640]

Welcome!

[@PikachooUpYou]

Most people with Autism have an incredible affinity for right/wrong/justice.

[@Jaffer_cake]

Fascinating! could you elaborate a little please

[@alexalke1417]

​@@winterprocopius5399 As an high functioning autistic person i can tell it's not as true as you might think. We even have a cognitive empathy developped way beyond most people have, hence our sense of justice.

[@jimmyjimmy7240]

​​@@alexalke1417Yeah, you just made all that up. There's not a single study that'll support what you just said. I'm not saying the other guy is correct, either. You're both just talking out of your asses.

[@gianni_schicchi]

@@alexalke1417 nice anecdote

[@silverstarlight9395]

My dad would be an excellent guest if you want to discuss Sikhism. He's a published author in India, and he has also written for national newspapers and writes blogs.

[@mantistoboggan1503]

For what it's worth I'd like to see that. I know nothing about Sikhism but it's one of those things I always mean to learn about but never get around to

[@kevparr]

​@@mantistoboggan1503 same here.

[@miguelthealpaca8971]

@@mantistoboggan1503 Yeah, I'm the same. I would also like to learn about it.

[@paulmarshall4793]

if you can pick and choose, your ethics don't sit on religious beliefs. Your religious beliefs sit on your ethics as the primary level. Why pick and choose divorce or idol worship and don't pick and choose murder? You have a based ethic that if you dig into is probably based around consent as the engine that drives your picks and your dismissals. Good luck 😊

[@ONETimothy2.12-14]

Tried but can't make sense of this comment of yours. I think because you're assuming that no one's practiced ethics directly correlate with their faith which is false. Many people openly admit that their entire code of ethics is biblically based.

[@JJ-of7ms]

@@ONETimothy2.12-14 Many people _say_ that, but that doesn't make it true.

[@ONETimothy2.12-14]

@@JJ-of7ms The irony here is as a westerner, your deeply heald feelings on morality are distinctly Christian and you don't even realize it.

[@JJ-of7ms]

@@ONETimothy2.12-14 How could you possibly know that? You're just lying to make yourself feel superior. Is that a Christian value?

[@ONETimothy2.12-14]

@@JJ-of7ms You really should pay more attention to these arguments. I know that because the west has been dominated by Christianity for 1700 years. That's death, war, community building, marriage. Every aspect of life dictated by the church to a totally willing population of people. Liberalism is a Christian invention. If you don't understand the implications here it's only because you're extremely motivated not to. Today you might hate Christianity but it very much created the lens through which you view the world.

[@aaronsmith9209]

I don't know if we need religion but it used to do something that we really need as a species which is foster community. We may or may not need religion, but we need safe/ neutral and positive places near to where we live so people can meet and interact with each other, have common goals and do activities together. In many places people are too isolated and that's probably where all the crazy ideas and actions are coming from. Very difficult to build community in such an inequal country and insecure housing and jobs and a high cost of living. Going out and about, I've noticed public transport and pubs seem to be good at getting people to interact and socialise with each other but we need more free places too, a lot of these places like libraries, youth centres and even park maintenance were lost to austerity. The church for good or bad was the welfare state before the welfare state and a place for advice and help, it's time we got something better really.

[@_o..o_1871]

I totally agree with this. The sense of community is gone in many places and it’s extremely dangerous in so many ways.

[@damienhughes8823]

While being irked by some of the descriptions and generalisations around 'New Atheism' and disagreeing with much of this discussion (Is there a glossing over of the difference between the personal and societal benefits of living a life according to religious doctrine, and truely believing that Jesus walked on water for example?), I found this thoroughly interesting. As always Novara challenging me to consider why I believe what I believe.

[@wisdomstable8143]

As an Anglican Priest, Franciscan and Process Theologian, this has been such an enlightened and refreshing conversation about Faith and Religion. Thank you both so much for this conversation. This sort of thing is why Novara Media is my favourite media outlet and I recommend it so many people. Bless you both. I love the fact that Aaron highlighted scriptures from my Canon within the Canon, Matthew 25. Other radical and revolutionary scriptures with which I use as a lens in which to read all other scriptures and recommend to others are Matthew 5 through 7 (Sermon on the Mount), Matthew 20:20-28, Luke 4: 16-30 and 1John.

[@wisdomstable8143]

You maybe well be right thank you for sharing your perspective. I was just expressing my thanks a gratefulness to Ash and Aaron in my own way. @@user-op9ne8hs9c

[@fionaetienne1693]

​@@user-op9ne8hs9c wow!! Arogant and judgemental!

[@XavierJAlexander]

Loved this convo, would love to see Aaron have a conversation with an atheist intellectual like Cosmic Skeptic / Alex ‘O Conner. I am an atheist humanist and on the left, I believe our moral compass does not come from religion but from human engagement with their communities, evolutionary biology and social structures / imperatives. I believe most the firmly held moral beliefs are the result of their effect on a community / people and would be the same regardless of religion. They are the result of evolution and empathy.

[@punypixel2795]

I was going to say the same about Alex O'Connor but wanted to check if someone else had made the same point. I think it would be a really worthwhile conversation.

[@rosamariasalazar6066]

I was raised as a catholic but as I grew older the question for me is if we rule ourselves by humanitarian beliefs, the respect for other human beings, why would we need religion or god for? Isn't that the basic doctrine of the 3 major religions? Treat the other as you treat yourself and there's no need for religion. The human being may need some kind of spirituality to face the void of death but history show us that the ultimate goal of any religious institution is always power, dominion and war. The belief in any kind of divinity should be a personal, private belief never to be imposed on others least of all to be confused with ethics.

[@classics7636]

Besides, the fact that all of Judaism is made up fiction, and the Christian documents are based on that fiction and our a typology of that fiction. There should be no religion mixed with politics ever. Religion is fictitious. Man made God in his image.

[@ana-OM]

🌹

[@powrxplor69]

Absolutely agree with your comment Rosa Maria, and very well put!

[@octaviawinter9768]

I’m a muslim but for the sake of argument I’ll engage with this secularly. Every culture has its own sense of right and wrong and varying levels of intensity within that. For eg. In the us you can call someone 10 years older than you by name but if you were to do that in Korea you’d be villainized as being disrespectful and “wrong.” Right and wrong varies constantly at any time and place. We can all say treat others as you treat yourself, but when there is no reward or penalty people don’t feel beholden to that. Religion motivated people to thoughtfully act in a simple and straightforward way, clearly defining what right and wrong is. This allows a universal right and wrong that goes above this variability. Religious people feel like doing bad things sometimes but what holds us back? Religion. We know our actions have consequences, even if we get away with it in this world. In all honesty, this discussion of needing religion is hard to have since most of the world presently is religious to some extent. We can never look at a completely secular world and truly tell that people would be able to treat each other as they treat themselves. We can’t know that. But from what I know and have experienced, my religion has kept me from my worst proclivities. Religion might stay the same but people will ultimately be people.

[@saarahturtle]

​@@octaviawinter9768 I grew up Muslim and know this argument well. What do you think of controversial issues in Islam, like slavery, the prophet's marriage to a child, the death penalty for homosexuality etc.? It will either be revulsion and arguments about those not applicable nowadays, showing that you have a sense of morality outside of Islam, or you will have the hard task of defending these things beyond "God says so"

[@microwaves25]

I've been reading Tolstoy and I believe he helps clarify the potency of religion. Take away the iconography, the crusades, the centuries of cognitive dissonance that have led to the destruction of so many things and youre presented with stories that should equip any person to a life of meaning. Love, tolerance, non violence and charity. The holy texts have both directly and indirectly influenced so much of our history and culture, to deny it would be ignorant. An Irish man of little faith.

[@deanlowdon8381]

I don’t think anyone would deny that culture and humanity have been shaped by religion, but I’d argue the nett effect overall has been extremely negative, and we’d be much better off if it no longer existed…

[@Umberhulk-yr1ul]

​@@deanlowdon8381I would have to disagree. Sadly experiences have to be had in order to learn, and as long as people keep bothering to look upon the past to learn and not to judge the mistakes+teachings of religious ideas can only be a net positive

[@deanlowdon8381]

@@Umberhulk-yr1ul You’re going to have to explain that again. Why are religious ideas a nett positive?

[@microwaves25]

@@deanlowdon8381 it's hard to say if we would be better off without it. There's no denying the atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion but would we as a species have the same moral framework without these stories which were brought to and inherited by the masses. I'm not saying if it's true or not its just a fascinating thought.

[@deanlowdon8381]

@@microwaves25 I have no doubt we’d be better off without religion. Exactly what moral framework do you think it provides? Read the Bible and it condones slavery, stoning unruly children to death, forcing women to marry their rapists and hundreds of other awful things. The truth is, religious people just pick the parts they like and ignore the parts they don’t, making it all essentially worthless.

[@KuyVonBraun]

Fascinating discussion, more of this please!!

[@lochnessamonster1912]

I don’t think we should ever advocate for lies and propaganda to have that sort of a role in our lives, whether the outcome is good or bad.

[@minimalist279]

Religion and disinformation.

[@MintyFarts]

@@minimalist279 well they all can't be true, so which one isn't disinformation?

[@gianni_schicchi]

@@MintyFarts not all religions proclaim to know all truths. you failed to understand religions and make assumptions based off of a narrow understanding

[@saarahturtle]

​@gianni_schicchi but they often make divine claims that are not true (e.g. this specific person was given revelation by an omnipotent, omniscient being)

[@minimalist279]

@@MintyFarts ... all the religions. Every single one. Provide structures & stories to keep humans on straight and narrow. Unfortunately often subverted.

[@singingway]

The good that has been accomplished in the world is despite religion, not because of it.

[@inuwooddog3027]

If one cannot discern the distinctions between faith, teachings, and religion, it may be prudent to refrain from embracing a specific religious doctrine.

[@cegesh1459]

Just ignore all religions

[@chrisem81]

I WAS COLD, I WAS NAKED, WERE YOU THERE? WERE YOU THERE? and suddenly I am back at middle school.

[@nailachou1174]

There is a similar quote in Islam to what Aron mentioned at the start narrated by Prophet Muhammad as follows: “Allah Almighty will say on the Day of Resurrection: O son of Adam, I was sick but you did not visit Me. He will say: My Lord, how can I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? Allah will say: Did you not know that My servant was sick and you did not visit him, and had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food but you did not feed Me. He will say: My Lord, how can I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? Allah will say: Did you not know that My servant asked you for food but you did not feed him, and had you fed him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for drink but you did not provide for Me. He will say: My Lord, how can I give You drink when You are the Lord of the worlds? Allah will say: My servant asked you for a drink but you did not provide for him, and had you given it to him you would have found Me with him.”

[@csharpe5787]

Brilliant quote, thanks

[@Uniq_Jer31vs33_GodHearsAndSees]

Not surprising - much of that book was plaguarized from other sources and even includes folk stories circulating at the time.

[@jeongbun2386]

Subhanallah 🥲

[@DemonOnEarth86]

​@@Uniq_Jer31vs33_GodHearsAndSees haha .. as he/she said it's a quote in Islam ... meaning not from that book as you phrase it .. anyway try to check your facts next time

[@rainbowkrampus]

@@Uniq_Jer31vs33_GodHearsAndSees I don't think plagiarism is a useful concept here. More like cultural diffusion. Islam most likely derived from a sect of christianity and almost certainly got a lot of its literary cues from early christian literature. But then, the same can be said about christianity. They borrow heavily from Greco Roman and Israelite literature. Israelite literature borrowed heavily from Assyrian and Egyptian literature. The process of developing religious literature has always been a process of reinterpreting old ideas to make them meaningful to the current generation. Borrowing ideas indicates your group's connection to the past. It's homage in the most literal sense. Calling it plagiarism ignores the genre conceits of the literature and anachronistically brings in a bunch of modern ideas about intellectual property and property right in general. If you want to be scathing and still be correct you could call it highly derivative. Ya know, since many religious people like to imagine that these texts are unique historical documents or are at least sympathetic to the idea that they derive from history in some capacity.

[@judithwyer389]

The commandment do unto others as you would have them do unto you is virtually universal.

[@organicod2438]

Not a Commandment. It is the Golden Rule in Christianity.

[@BrRizzy1]

Very true: Prophet Muhammad said, “Whoever wishes to be saved from Hell and admitted into Paradise as desired, they should believe in God and the Last Day and treat other people the way they themselves would like to be treated.” Source: Sahih Muslim

[@cdean2789]

Thou shalt not kill. Is interesting.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

It’s not the best rule though, cos what if you’re a masochist - god wasn’t so perfect there

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@eighty88eight but religious countries do plenty of killing and stealing - sometime killing in the name of their made-up gods - religion obviously doesn’t work

[@greggasiorowski1326]

Engaging, thank you for confirming my left atheism. 😁 Fun fact, I went through my "New Atheist" phase well past my mid 40s so it was a coming of middle age rather than age thing, I got over New part of it & moved on.

[@ZER0--]

So does that mean you are now religious? If so what one, and why?

[@greggasiorowski1326]

No I'm still atheist, but I mostly find the topic boring but somehow seem to keep getting dragged into it lately. I wish to spend the few remaining years of what I consider a finite existence involved with political activism and enjoying life.

[@yonowaaru]

I think a big missed talking point when referring to sexuality and bodily autonomy is the implications of birth control for the liberation of people with vaginas. For the majority of human existence sexual reproduction has been an inherently dangerous exercise for people with vaginas due to lack of contraception, childbirth and it’s associated complications. To claim that “we’ve just had it easy” is to ignore the lived reality of these people up until the 1950’s

[@trish5111]

We are not out of the woods yet. The severe side effects some women experience with hormonal contraception (and the less severe ones that the average woman is expected to ignore if she experiences them) mean that they are not suitable or usable for all. Without them you have to rely on less effective means which may require male cooperation. The refusal to wear condoms, coercion to have sex without them and even "stealthing" is far too common and was the final straw for me. Penetrative sex is not the be all and end all - especially for women. I'm personally done with that shit. Got better things to do and can click my own mouse if desire it.

[@ozychk21]

Read Karen Armstrong, “Sacred Nature”.😊 She’s a religious scholar and has written about most eastern and western religions…she would be a great guest. Her final position is urging more of us to treat the natural world as sacred and with more respect.

[@mpat53]

You should look at sanatan dharma. This is core

[@AeromaticXD]

her book "A history of God" is brilliant

[@AO-gn4hc]

Religion is a tool. Any tool can be a weapon of you hold it right.

[@fahim7733]

“Faith” means to believe in something without evidence, and this is why faith is the cornerstone of all religions. Religion requires one to believe in things that cannot be proven. Without faith, religion has no grounding. Religion attaches a lot of value and importance on faith, to the point that faith has been given an esteemed status. Having faith in religious doctrine is often seen as an intellectual virtue. Religion dulls people’s critical thinking abilities; people have been indoctrinated into believing in things that defy logic and common sense. Seneca said: “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.” But how would religion be useful to rulers? Religion makes people predictable, manipulatable and controllable-and control is power. Yes, the world would be a better place without religion.

[@tobee7268]

Scientist only just discovering today, what was already predicted 1400 years ago, What food or ingredients benefit mind and body, how child grows in the womb, how the world will end, these Q's or A's date back to 1400 years, lol

[@bakasan1902]

Institutions (legal, political, commercial, social etc) can be used in bad faith, but that's not necessarily a reason to dissolve them. Reform, maybe? The reasonable dangers you stated might be greatly mitigated if the religion exists in a diverse and educated society. In an isolated monoculture, I agree, religion would probably be stultifying or reinforcing. In a competitive market society though, a religious commitment could be a nice holiday from the soft-core cannibalism we might be enduring, and may be a chance to experience some solidarity again. To paraphrase DF Wallace, a religion might be the least harmful thing you have faith in, or may give more satisfaction than endless acquisition/consumption, barely-limited and wasteful competition, and bitter social climbing. Capitalism and christianity are the only two religions I know. Would we be better off without them? I'm not sure why I thought I could rebut you. How about, "If we have facts, let's use those. If we don't, let's use faith."?

[@one-off3264]

Couldn't agree more. Religion is dangerous. Deuteronomy 22 🤯

[@Whateverxo56]

@@tobee7268no Islam didn’t discover it. We have known or suspected of these things way before Islam.

[@toppedtop5787]

​​@@tobee7268the scientific miracles have been debunked havent they? And other traditions new this aswell before islam, you shouldnt try to erase the history of others for the benefit of validating youre own beliefs.

I think that he is conflating secularism with nihilism. He's missing the humanism part of secular humanism. Christianity and most other religions' core beliefs come from humanism. This: "We believe in nothing, Mr. Lebowski, nothing" caricature view of secularism really irritates me.

[@fionaetienne1693]

Sorry that's just wrong. Humanism comes from Christianity. It is practically Christian values minus God. You would be hard pressed to find those values before Christianity.

[@stillwaitingforblackmetalr2503]

@@fionaetienne1693 Humanist secularism is an evolution of Christianity. Science is also an evolution of Christianity. It was born with people like St. Augustine and the Franciscans. The Renaissance happened because of Christianity, not despite it. Secularism only exists because of Christianity. The idea of secularism would be absurd before Christianity. Deism, and mystical christianity are eerily similar to modern scientific understanding of the Universe.

[@Jon_lad]

Epicurus had pretty modern ideas pre Christianity.

[@xtradi]

@@stillwaitingforblackmetalr2503 Christianity already in power long before renaissance but why renaissance happen at 17th century not before if Christianity enabled it? What is the missing ingredients?

[@fionaetienne1693]

​@stillwaitingforblackmetalr2503 yes, I agree!

[@2mutchfreetime]

Honestly your conflating of aethism with neo liberlism is gross. The world of free market worship is a religion in itself that just replaces god with the hand of the market. Athiesm is a lack of belief in the ultimate authority. Not a worship of greed

[@nicolaford7510]

The early Christisns were the best. The rest is a horror story. Still, churches are nice, but only cos the breathe history.

[@nicolaford7510]

There are some good ideas in the bible. So what? Where do you think such ideas came from ? God?

[@paddylindley1879]

Fully agree. Also linking atheism with the Iraq war.. Bush and Blair are religious fundamentalists. It was a really poor ‘debate’ in my opinion. Self-indulgent.

[@singingway]

Thank you!!!

[@SukhmeetSingh28]

What about Sikhism? You mentioned looking to discuss other religions. Very few religions are as modern or as left wing in ideology

[@carlpierce2486]

What about juju up the mountain....why are you ignoring Africa ?

[@ocher8931]

@@carlpierce2486it would be great to hear about Sikhism. I’ve always been curious.

[@carlpierce2486]

Why ? Its just woo with some good bits added in.

[@MsDarylM]

True to a degree. I live amongst a high population of Sikhs and many of them are out protesting every weekend against sex education in schools.

[@louishindle6620]

This idea of a dichotomy between egalitarian religious collectivism and liberal capitalist individualism is a big part of why so many socialists are incapable of recognising that fascists are worse than liberals. The alternative to liberal capitalism should be socialist, humanist freedom, not conservative religious collectivism. This flaw is in my view downstream of the view expressed by just about theist that I’ve ever seen speak on the subject (including Aaron here): that atheism is empty and atheists devoid of belief - or, rather, defined by a lack of belief. Because if you don’t acknowledge the fact that rational, egalitarian, humanist socialism is rooted very deeply on positive beliefs, not negative beliefs, you have to acknowledge that the people have more than a choice between a supernatural master and a natural one. And that concept, to the religious, the fascist and the capitalist alike, is terrifying. And all else aside, and this is a lighter point: I’d rather people be obsessed with sex - something material, and real, and rooted in interaction between human beings - than something intangible and whose very existence is unknown.

[@greggasiorowski1326]

Well, sex can be transcendental as well IME. 🙂

[@ibogantess]

Maybe you've got a wrong idea of religion alltogether, have you ever listened to nirvana or the song bittersweet symphony, two pieces of art that are inherently religious yet no one wants to take gay people's rights in the name of our gods.

[@rickpearson7943]

I'm a progressive atheist. Born and raised in the fundamentalist religious southern US. My immediate family was nominally Christian. However my extended family (grandparents etc) are very religious, conservative fundamentalist. My dad was forced to go to church and he resented that. So he never forced us to go. Aside from a handful of times when his parents insisted we go. Anyways the point being I wasn't throughly indoctrinated. Yet my brother became a "born again" Christian at 19. He joined a very toxic church and it opened my eyes to the fact that religion is nothing but socially accepted cults. Cults are religion and religions are cults. They brainwashed him and I saw all the negative things about religion firsthand and how it changed him. My brother and I unfortunately have never been close since then-despite efforts. I'm not sure how both of us went onto such different paths yet being raised the same. I can only assume it has to do with our personalities. I've always been more a freethinking black sheep. While he had then yearning to be accepted by others and religion got to him when he was young, insecure and vulnerable. I dont have much of a point to that other than I do see religion as overall a bad thing. He CAN be used for good but I think the cons outweigh the pros. That being said, I don't think as long as we're the current human species, we will ever rid ourselves of religion. It goes beyond religion onto something more fundamental-most humans are irrational and superstitious. Everyone can be irrational in fact, some more than others. But the bottom line is as long as humans are irrational and superstitious, religion will always be around. So I figure the only thing we can do is to try and moderate religious beliefs. Take care of each other in a secular humanist society. And the more people are healthy and taken care of, the weaker religion becomes. The few positive aspects of religion should be encouraged as much as possible. The fundamentalism should be shunned. Particularly of the Abrahamic faiths. As far as I can tell, they're the most toxic. Though Hinduism seems pretty toxic on Indian society with the cast system and all too. But it does seem like the fundamentalists of Abrahamic religions do the most damage worldwide

[@_o..o_1871]

Thankfully when I got to high school (in the mid 2010’s) religion wasn’t mandatory anymore at school. I still took that class in high school cause it was helping me with my final grade, but I wasn’t brainwashed anymore.

[@_o..o_1871]

Also at the end of high school I finally came out to my friends. Romania is not really such an LGBT friendly country, but I can see that we’re making a lot of progress. Only a few thousands people were attending Pride until the 2010’s and now in the 2020’s we have 20k/30k people at the main Pride march in Bucharest and thousands of others in the other big Romanian cities. We also have many more LGBT-friendly places and events. Drag shows are more and more common nowadays, even at some slightly more mainstream venues. We’ve come a long way, but we still need to fight for our rights and equality.

[@MarcelGraumans]

The confusion between collective equal human worth and individual human preferences is stunning. Applying the first to the second is where everything goes haywire. As long as someone doesn't (consciously) hurt their fellow human beings and their surroundings, anything goes. If we are created, we are created with equal rights and worth, not with equal abilities and preferences. Don't inflict pain on others and don't judge other people's preferences (as long a they do not destruct / inflict pain) and no religion would be needed.

[@queenvagabond8787]

The world would be better off without *centralised* religion and top-down religious authority, but traditions, celebrations, gatherings and meetings in a socio-cultural, even 'religious' context, are not necessarily a bad thing and can actually help unify people. Good examples are Quaker-style meetings, 'Sunday Assembly' (a secular, humanistic gathering) or the decentralised, ad-hoc nature of pagan celebrations in the UK, Ireland, Scandinavia and other places.

[@SK-ei4cm]

Islam is centralised and it’s had its fair amount of issues

[@BrRizzy1]

@@SK-ei4cm Islam is exactly NOT centralised! Shiism is, to a degree, but Sunnism is totally deregulated nowadays. Up to about 150 years ago, there were four Sunni schools of jurisprudence, but they still did not each have a single authority representing them. The only authority in Muslim lands were the ruling authorities, as they are here in the UK. People were even free to choose which court they wanted to turn to, with their differences.

[@SK-ei4cm]

@@BrRizzy1 my apologies I meant to say not centralised to counter the OP’s comment regarding centralised religions

[@coolbanana165]

Sunday Assembly isn't religious. Traditions, celebrations and gatherings are good, but I'd suspect that non-centralised religion could be harmful too.

[@queenvagabond8787]

@@SK-ei4cm Its centralised enough - there are schools to teach Imams and they teach in a certain way and people that study for long enough can become Imams, becoming a central authority figure of sorts.

[@stuartdennis538]

Good to see you engaging with religion, as a lefty Christian I was pleased to see Ash mentioning liberation theology and enjoyed your honest discussion

[@uuuuugh]

Prema Goet is a Fellow Researcher at the Oxford Center for Hindu Studies OCHS... he recently published a book called Against the Grain

[@michingmallecho5143]

I did a theology degree. My tutor was Denys Turner - he's a Marxist - wrote a book called Marxism and Christianity - but also writes on Christian mysticism. Can really recommend. Also: I'm sure you've read Simone Weil....but if you haven't, I think you'd love her. Particularly you, Ash.

[@leomercy3016]

Fascinating conversation! Thanks guys for consistently insightful downstream episodes

[@YLLPal]

Ahh, yes, the 4 gospels, Matthew, Marx, Luke and John

[@claudemadrid4950]

😂 The Gospel according to Marx is probably the more Capital. 😊

[@candidaprout2401]

Aaron had to command a whole army of straw men in this one. Retail parks?....

[@JesusAteMyWaffles]

100% and it’s probably a failing on my behalf but it really irritated me

[@lovelydavestewart]

Beat me to it! A more reasonable comparison would have been the library at Alexanderia (if it still exists) or the colleseum in Rome etc etc. Stupid strawman.

[@deanlowdon8381]

Yeah, he really needs to have a discussion with an actual atheist rather than straw-manning what atheists believe…

[@saracentiano]

Simple flowchart: 1. Is there a God? 2. Would he be interested in us? 3. If yes, would he send messengers? 4. Which of the messages have been preserved accurately and not corrupted? 5. Is the message true in its own right without any inaccuracies or false prophecies. Follow this algorithm.

[@antoniomanuelcaetano6770]

Que é god? O que é god? Quem é god? Se me conseguir responder, talvez acredite, talvez não.

[@evilsaddist666]

Answer to 1; NO!, the rest of the questions now obsolete.

[@eighty88eight]

Like the biblical white robed man ? Hell no ! !

[@anckrnews]

It’s pretty lame that both of you seem to view all atheists as versions of Richard Dawkins. Aaron, should I invoke the same intellectual rigor and just assume that because you’re religious that Kenneth Copeland is useful representative of your worldview?

[@carlpierce2486]

Richard is brave, fearless and sticks to his guns. You should admire the guy that challenged religious norms.

[@fionaetienne1693]

​@@carlpierce2486 not brave enough to debate an actual theologian!

[@barakesmith-washington6946]

Never stop doing these Downstreams that are just novara people talking amongst themselves!

[@gotmilk91]

I think Palestinians are centuries ahead of Israel when it comes to miscengentation, but Israel's a few years ahead of Palestine in terms of LGBTQIA+ however that is largely through Pinkwashing unfortunately.

[@fionaetienne1693]

Yes, until the next election!

[@Gph0367]

Keep up the amazing work Novara❤❤❤

[@chriswrathall5860]

Loved this discussion. I really appreciate your sane, balanced views.

[@Snoozerboozer]

religion should not be allowed anywhere near politics.

[@deanlowdon8381]

Completely agree.

[@petestan5186]

This is a useful program right now. Always appreciate Novara. My cynical side can't help but think in collosal defeat, powerlessness and hopelessness we turn to faith. I'm not there yet.

[@BrRizzy1]

So it has a utility, right? In the depths of despair, it offers hope, it offers some consolation. Marx argued it pacifies such a person. But Muslims don't see their faith pacifying them. Instead, they fight for their rights and for justice. But then they're labelled Islamists!

[@greggasiorowski1326]

@@BrRizzy1 Crutchs have utility & serve a purpose sure.

[@BrRizzy1]

@@greggasiorowski1326 we all need crutches in life 😅

[@greggasiorowski1326]

@@BrRizzy1 Crutches are meant to temporary unless you are disabled.

[@BrRizzy1]

@@greggasiorowski1326 OK so it was a bad analogy 😅👍

[@andrewburns5697]

An interesting conversation. If you are going to discuss atheism though it might have been interesting to have an atheist join of the discussion. I would like to have heard an atheist be given the chance to respond to a Christian and Muslim's criticisms of 'New Atheism'. I am an atheist myself. I think there was plenty of cherry picking going on. For every positive statement lifted from the bible that fits in with our left wing views there's plenty that doesn't. There are sections of the bible that are pro-slavery, anti woman, anti gay etc. The bible is certainly not a historical document and we have to be careful not to assume much of what is in there actually happened.

[@WhoOneIs]

“When the church hears the cry of the oppressed it cannot but denounce the social structures that give rise to and perpetuate the misery from which the cry arises” - Archbishop Oscar Romero.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

When did the Catholic Church or any other major church sell off their riches to provide for the poor? I must have missed that

[@cdean2789]

Has the Pope called for a permanent Ceasefire?

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

The church could end world hunger by selling its jewels - it doesn’t

[@roscojenkins7451]

​@@cdean2789the Pope is being called an antisemitic communist... Weird...

[@cdean2789]

@@roscojenkins7451 for calling the IOF a bunch of terrorists?

[@anthonyc4812]

Big fan but 14 minutes in I've had a gutful. Cannot believe what I'm hearing from both of you. So disappointing.

[@CreamedCorn2002]

Gonna elaborate or just throw your toys out the pram and cry?

[@anthonyc4812]

@@CreamedCorn2002 have a look in the comments mate. Plenty of annoyed people. I don't habe to explain myself.

[@bentz98125]

Ironic that for at least some of us infidels and apostates, religious hypocrisy is easier to accept than for believers because our expectations are lower.

[@thatcandont]

This will be worth watching because I just sigh every time I think of something to say

[@AlbertoGarcia-wd7sc]

I prefer my morals to come from self reflection and the desire to be good with others. Not because a supernatural tyrant threatens me with eternal damnation

[@tomg268]

I think Arjun Appadurai would be an interesting person to talk to about the politics of Hinduism.

[@cdean2789]

And Buddhism

[@kerynha]

I want Ash Sarkar to read me bedtime Marxist phylosophy to sleep. This conversation has partially restored my optimism about our future. I wish we had these kind of calm informed conversations available in public forums like public TV.

[@KhosrowZanganeh1374]

It’s a shame you’re having this discussion without any atheists present. There’s a lot of projection of beliefs onto “atheists”. I respect both of you for your politics and presence in media but this discussion was fairly one sided.

[@lexjim9949]

Totally agreed... They were almost making a caricature of atheist

[@Samuel-hd3cp]

Facts

[@deanlowdon8381]

Totally agree. I thought this was an incredibly ill informed discussion.

[@BerzerkDC]

Thr only time I've called bullshit on a Novaro video. New atheists not honest? All for war?

[@deanlowdon8381]

@@BerzerkDC The more I reflect on this video, the more appalling I think it is…

[@partiklarson]

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

[@uncleogrimacy]

"Opiate of the masses" changed from "pleasant release/escape" in the 19th century to "brutal societal ill" in the 21st

[@thedoctor.a.s1401]

You say that as if it was a bad thing

[@cortanathelawless1848]

​@@thedoctor.a.s1401 Well it definitely changes the meaning and while both are a condemnation I think both are true depending on the religious person

[@uncleogrimacy]

@@thedoctor.a.s1401 Not my thing, but I've met some amazing Christian comrades as committed as anyone, and while one might say it's in spite of their Christianity instead of because, they put in the work so I don't want to bash them

[@dec3142]

Well as a homosexual. Religion is a no. My boyfriend is from a hindu background which makes things difficult since his family are trying to find him a wife.

[@rohanxdavis]

Which is ironic because gender fluidity and even being trans is accepted within hindu writings and tradition. However the modern form of hinduism has adopted alot of colonial British ideas ofbthe family. I've done a video that touches on this if you're interested

[@_o..o_1871]

Same, religion totally messed me up. Aaron needs more nuances in his takes. He didn’t really have to go through a lot of these traumatic experiences to understand that religion is more bad than good.

[@alexanderharris8310]

"Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers from the chain, not in order that man shall bear the chain without consolation but so that he shall cast off the chain and pluck the living flower." - Karl Marx

[@lemondayz]

In regards to the conversations on dating apps... Whilst I am no fan of dating apps... Do you not think that dating and marriage was commodified when women were seen as property in heavily religious societies? In the same property based societies that Aaron views as inherent to the development of the religions being discussed? Dating is commodified most from the weak position that women have, backed up by religious values. I am from a socially conservative town in the north of England, which is a strong worker class community; for a lot of girls and women, there is only part-time work.. a lot of people still date their way into a comfortable life and suffer greatly when they are stuck in a badly paid part-time service job with a child that the dad has abandoned. For context I am also a catholic, but I am probably more religious in the way ash sounds to be.

[@han9488]

16:19 that was a gross assumption based on absolutely no facts, he really has no basis to say such a thing

[@AndrewSmith-fd3fi]

I think my point was nailed in the opening, religion debate tends to revolve around there is/isn't a God without looking into the substance of what is behind this, what gets missed is that the texts of the various relayed Theologys around the world that have endured wether as striving to live a balance life through harmony with nature, karmic principles, or transactional be good now, abstain and there's a pay off (usually spiritual down the road). But without the divine, leave that to one side, your left with a guide when taken as a whole is about living with your neighbours, society and larger world in a peaceful manner. So when religion is rejected the baby is thrown out with the bath water and the life guides are also disregarded. When I was at school in UK we had assembly, had a be kind and thoughtful life lesson and lords prayer and sent out to classproblem is there's no ethical or moral replacement with that segment being replaced. The bill of human rights and things like the Geneva concention and very topoicly Genocide Convention should be a core of education. because either you have nothing else or it supplements that theological based understanding your taught anyway. I don't consider myself religous don't go to church, but I like to think I have some notion of right and wrong, rather than seems to be the US media/social construct of might makes right , might be having a bigger stick, more money, social privelge essentially how many big corporations are run.

[@jimcartmell4295]

I recall Aarons body mannerisms and facial expressions being similar, in this discussion with Ash, to when he did the podcast with the Trig duo (KK&FF). His facial expressions signalled that he might feel or give the appearance that he was out of his depth but he was not actually because he handled that one and this one quite well in my opinion; as opposed to his normal Novara slots as host or co-host where he's always sharp, quick witted, spot-on with the facts giving a thoroughly good breakdown of the subject matter and has the demeanour to match it. So I will say unlike some commenters previously, yeah its fine by me if you delve into this sort of topic and come back to it again, it is needed.

[@anckrnews]

If the misogyny present in religion is just a reflection of a human nature that predated that religion, then why should we not assume that the virtuous edicts of that religion are also just a reflection of the human nature that preceded it? What, may I ask, is religion contributing to the process here?

[@JesusAteMyWaffles]

I noticed this as well. It is a concession that all but calls religion a social construct of its time. And if religion can move past these outdated beliefs, what exactly is the teachings or purpose of defunct religious texts?

[@UnfortunatelyTheHunger]

Thing is that religious texts have always been cherry--picked, and always will. In a way, it doesn't really matter what exactly any religion says, only that they're the most efficient vectors for community and spirituality, so much so that whenever we come across something that isn't a religion but approaches that same efficiency, we call it a religion. See "football is a religion" or "swifites are a religion" or "Apple fanboys are a religion", as a few examples

[@andrewwoods8153]

Absolutely brilliant discussion, very close to my experience and thinking from a 65 year old Aussie ❤

[@mtgforest9087]

I found this conversation very insightful and interesting. I was raised as a Roman Catholic though I no longer am, and I'm certain it and my parents instilled a good basis for my politics today. My philosophy has been since becoming an Atheist is to respect those of faith.

[@hamilcarluxemburg5266]

I think Arundhati Roy would love to talk about Hinduism.

[@blairgreenstein]

Agree with other comments, it would be great if you guys would actually have some atheists on because honestly neither of you have a great understanding of what our responses to things are likely to be judging from this episode, Aaron has conjured a very specific notion of what it means to be an atheist that I think bares little resemblance to what your average atheist actually is and believes, it’s a good example of a strawman.

[@_o..o_1871]

I appreciate this discussion, but I think it lacks some nuance and Aaron has a totally different experiences to a lot of us - irreligious people on the left. Me and many other queer folks (it doesn’t even have to be queer people tho) have had such traumatic experiences with religion, that it has become almost impossible to find anything good in it. I think religion harms more than it does good.

[@_o..o_1871]

Also, I think we should discuss the difference between spirituality and religion. I believe these 2 concepts are quite different in a way.

[@garybarnes4084]

@@_o..o_1871 What is the difference, though? I've always felt that there is none.

[@garybarnes4084]

Agree on the point regarding LGBT and religion (from an Evangelical Christian).@@_o..o_1871

[@trish5111]

Yeah I feel that as a straight lefty man he easily dismissed a woman, even one he apparently respects, trying to explain her experience and how religion has impacted women.

[@SamplePerson]

Mariano Corbí should be a go-to and to consider in these talks. I dont know if his books are in english, but he has made a good work.

[@hobbitor3990]

Loved this convo. But personally (from my research and observations of my own faith/ the faiths around me) I cannot seem to seperate paganism and modern day religion. Im Eastern European and in Christianity I see all of the pagan beliefs weaving their way through... I am weary of religious people treating paganism as a monolith because the history is very interesting and nuanced! I think theres a very fascinating change happening in many societies of people turning to paganism again... Worth reading into! Thanks for the great vid!

[@WhoOneIs]

Capitalism creates a world of atomised and alienated individuals without purpose or meaning. The need to belong, to feel connected, and have meaning is a fundamental to human existence whether that is through religion, or political activism. Otherwise the vastness of the universe and the fact of ageing, sickness and death make human life pointless.

[@powresitta]

This conflation of "new atheism" with bill mar neoliberalism ha?!

[@andreid4298]

Great conversation! Thank You!

[@antony558]

Absolutely loved this conversation. I would love to hear more of these kinds of topics. It does strike me how uncomfortable a lot of the comments sound with the idea of faith, and I would urge people to just be open to other ideas and not feel threatened in their secularism, none of this is an attack on that, it’s just an exploration of something that is massively important to millions of people in the world

[@kowo6022]

I’m comfortable with the idea of faith. Uncomfortable with the idea of atheist being wrapped up as ultra mean capitalists 😂

[@freejosephmusic]

All praises due to you for your conscientious works

[@john_hunter_]

48:08 A lot of the laws in the Bible kind of help prevent theft. They left food for the poor when they harvested their crops. They forgave debts if they couldn't be paid back. No questions asked.

[@MintyFarts]

but we can come to conclusions like that be looking at what is good for ppl vs unjust. you don't need to cherry pick from an ancient book with many more misses than hits to decide to treat people well and grant them rights.

[@hideshiseyes2804]

Fascinating conversation, thanks Ash and Aaron. Didn’t realise the Bible was so based. Final thought: whether I believe everything is a miracle or everything is a mistake is entirely dependent on my mood.

[@kennethmarshall306]

God and all moral values come from us. The main constraint on bad behaviour is other people. They might not recognise it in themselves but they can recognise it in others, especially when it’s done to them or their friends and loved ones.

[@margaretmcnamee6411]

The failure of Christianity happened when it became linked to the political power and the empire. This caused a distortion.

[@MintyFarts]

sooo literally from it's inception then. it was always political and quickly organized in ways to influence politics in increasing ways until recent years.

[@wilfridarmstrong1897]

aaron 'everything that is good about humanity is because of religion, everything bad in spite of it' bastani

[@fionaetienne1693]

Well that certainly isn't a catholic view. I thought Arron was a Catholic!

[@gregsmy]

I loved this conversation. A big elephant seemed to be the assumptions of liberalism - there were lots "of course" moments which would have been fascinating to stop and question.

[@theamartinez7060]

Great, great work-- consistently great, Ash & Aaron. Just one smalll correction to acomment made in passing by Ash- although liberation theology was promulgated in Catholic base communities and ‘cursillistas’ during the 1970s, it emanates from the Vatican II conference where in 1963 Pope John Paul declared the Option for Poor as the church’s true vocation ( and direction ). Pope John Paul was canonized and is now called Saint John - he never issued an edit against liberation theology. In fact he died shortly after Vatican 2’s last conference. As for the Latin American theologians you spoke of,Boff, Gutteriez - they rose to prominence through their writing, primarily in the 1970s, concurrent with the Puebla conference in Mexico which highlighted the gross inequalities for indigenous and poor peoples in Latin America. But really enjoyed this offering and everything else you do. Thanks. Thea

[@uhtredragnorson9930]

Actually your portrayal of atheists is vicious. How dare you.

[@fionaetienne1693]

😂😂😂

[@tabbymoonshine5986]

I see no difference between cults and religions followed by masses, we just place stock in ancient beliefs in a way we are usually able to see through with modern cults. Just because it's old doesn't make it right.

[@BrRizzy1]

When it comes to spirituality and the unseen world, it's a free for all. All kinds of ideas are out there. You're free to choose what you want to believe. However, if some of these 'systems of belief' are internally coherent and help you to manage a lot of life's challenges in a positive way (and this is where there is a lot of evidence in psychology) that's a good thing! There is an inherent psychological need for self -transcendence and self-acceptance and supernatural beliefs have a positive role in this.

[@claudemadrid4950]

I even think that considering God as an old thing from an old book is the best way not to understand what I consider as the real nature of God. 😊

[@ashleewright6373]

@@BrRizzy1 The problem arises when people's beliefs in 'unseen' supernatural systems are used to inform real world decision making. Supernatural concepts like sin have been used to oppress marginalized groups, such as the LGBT+ community, indigenous populations, hell even left handed people. We can't rely on belief in the supernatural to inform morality, because, as you said, it's a free for all: anything can be justified if people construct supernatural consequences for it.

[@BrRizzy1]

@@ashleewright6373 fair enough. I have a firm, coherent supernatural belief system, am left handed and treat lgbtq like I would anyone else. In fact Owen Jones is my hero nowadays!

[@john_hunter_]

I recently came to a similar conclusion about religion after reading through all of the laws in the Bible. I also came across a quote that kind of sums it all up. "Tradition is a solution to a problem we forgot existed" We are slowly forgetting to practise the tradition of helping the poor & many other traditions that keep us humble & accountable to each other.

[@user-dp1kd6fr2m]

Very good discussion. Both open to listening to one another and countering well with logic but also sharing personal opinions, brilliant. So many other channels/podcasts just parrot what they have heard already or what they think they should say. In my opinion religions role is to help curb excess and provide unity and hope through the ages which (if taken as a guide rather than a rule book) is overall a net positive for the world.

[@cdean2789]

Modi is using religion by upgrading himself to a Brahmin to do rituals in a new temple.

[@BrendaBenoit]

So many good points made in this conversation. Things to ponder.

[@CraigHetheringsting]

The thumbnail got me good😂

[@celt456]

Thanks for this brilliant, thought-provoking conversation. I think it's interesting that many now classify themselves as 'spiritual, not religious' - perhaps this is a rejection of construed, patriarchal ideas about divinity and accompanying social control; and a recognition of our need for a connection with the divine and to live ethically.

[@jamesmoore9596]

Is that Ash as Salome and Aaron as John the Baptist in the thumbnail?!? 😮 LOL 😂

[@tulip2084]

David and Goliath

[@mikewrightj8648]

No to the question

[@PianoDentist]

In terms of secularism emerging from greco roman and other traditions as Aaron mentions; it's only trivially true - in the sense that thought and knowledge is foundational and it evolves over time, regardless of the type of precursors.. Modernity and it's impact on societies are often the pressure that forces us to update our moral and political outlooks. It's not hard to see that a nascent and then more established scientific approach has fueled modernity and therefore moral change. The epistemic approach that science - and secularism as a political enabler - provides, is very different from the epistemology of religion.

[@singhaman54321]

Dr Gurnam Singh of warwick University would be fantastic on a discussion like this

[@wilfredsterling2124]

Really interesting, thought provoking and helpful discussion.