WRESTLER REACTS - Medieval Scarf Wrestling

[@DreynHarry]

Well my friend - and here is now the perfect example of HOW WE CAN SAVE HEMA.... their work is massively important... they found the sources, they start to figure out the key points of the plays and how they CAN be achieved. NOW it would be up to someone like you, someone who really knows wrestling AND the historical context of how and where this style of fighting was practiced, to take their work and make it work under those contexts. this is how it can be made a serious martial art

[@michaelmarch8997]

There is a misericord in Gloucester cathedral that depicts two men collar or scarf wrestling. It looks like their shirts are just bunched up around their necks. Dates from around 1380.

[@michaelmarch8997]

Weirdly a picture of this misericord appeared on Facebook straight after I wrote this, must be the old google spying again lol. If you have time take a look at the page of folklorist Hugh Williams, he posted it today. Williams seems a good chap but weirdly again I think he does jiu jitsu

[@LaboArmatura]

Hi mister, Thank you for sharing and your interest. Yeah, I'm not a wrestler and my dummy is a real (passive) beginner. We just want to rediscover and talk about strange and fun HEMA. This video is only the result of (just) four sessions of mechanical testing, discovery and exploration. We just wanted to show them some interesting movements that we found. (We have never really tried to play or spar with scarf. The stress on the cervical vertebrae is very important. I think it takes a lot of physical preparation of the neck to avoid injury.) I'm ready to talk and answer questions on Facebook ;)

[@EnglishMartialArts]

In which case I think you did a really good job. I've replied on Facebook!

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Many thanks for this. Having been a Silat guy since the late '70s, I am very interested in stand up grappling. This scarf stuff is very interesting indeed! :)

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Isnt it!

[@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145]

The sarong (scarf) was definitely used in the Philippines, Malaysia & other South Eastern Asian countries. Also the Thugees of India used scarves to strangle I believe.

[@antoineduhamel5867]

Very intriguing subject. Upon watching this video, i made my quick research of imagery. Some sources show the wrestlers wearing the scarf around the neck, like in your video, and others show them wearing the scarfs with one arm in the loop along with the neck. One image even showed one man wearing is scarf around the neck facing an opponent wearing is scarf around the neck and one arm in. It would be interesting to experiment different scarf setups using judogi belts. One could even wear the belt cross the back of the neck, under the armpits through the front, and tied in thé lower back. That would provide the grabbing opportunities of the lapels whitout the whole gi.

[@kirklawson2218]

Well, this looks fun. You hit on exactly the right of it when you mentioned Judo. Not that this is Judo and not that it's not Judo. What I saw in this clip is consistent with pretty much any jacket wrestling where the technique is performed with the collar. Stylistically speaking, what this appears to be is a jacket with all the jacket removed except the collar. So that middle Uchi Mata (inner leg lifting cross buttock) is just substituting the scarf for the collar. You could do pretty much all of them that way. Could you see Parkyn's right handed Flying Mare (Ipon Seoinage) performed by drawing the left hand back, passing the right under the opponent's right arm pit (either still clasping the scarf in each hand or passing both ends to the left)? Yeah, this is definitely "just" jacket wrestling with only collar throws. Neat. Doesn't take much imagination to see all the collar chokes done with the scarf. :D

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yep, it's a jacket with all the extraneous bits of jacket removed. I like that. Now I want to find all the images I possibly can and see what we can draw from them technique wise...

[@karlarsch-i7k]

i will practice it, super cool

[@paddyr1568]

Have u ever done sock wrestling? You both wear one sock (the other foot naked), you win by removing your opponent’s sock from his foot, no strikes allowed

[@tapioperala3010]

I'd love to see more of this scarf wrestling, yes

[@andrewk.5575]

Reminds me of panache (yes that is actually what its called), which is a subset of skills in street Savate that involve using clothing as a weapon in a fight. Les Apachés (19th century Parisian gangsters) were notorious for strangling unsuspecting members of the bourgeoisie with scarves, much like the Indian Thugee.

[@garymallam1244]

Your comment about loosening the gi lapel reminds me of being a young judoka in the mid 70's. There were a number of techniques we would use to gain the advantage. One was to wear a GI jacket 2or 3 sizes too big, then as we started a fight we would loosen the jacket so that when the opponent went for a throw he would have to reel in reems of cloth before he actually got any purchase on our body. Allowing us enough time to counter. Eventually this was frowned upon and only tight fitting gi's were allowed. 😊.

[@gregwilgar772]

All in time for the winter season! Lets all go and fight people with SCARVES!!!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Obviously we should just randomly crossface people wearing scarfs in the street!

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

FASHION TEAM!

[@karlarsch-i7k]

maybe the most fascinating kinds of weapons, really interesting

[@thekeyfumbler]

Bujinkan/Ninjutsu uses items like scarfs/ropes/chains/bagstraps/clothing - built into our "taijutsu" - the engine behind all our jujutsu/weapons movement. You gain a sense of the leverages that act on the body structures to keep balance-break, structure-break etc.We don;t have (paired) kata for these ioems but rather use (paired)unarmed/armed kata to explore improvised weapons suce as these flexible ones.- as well as other types

[@jameshuffaker9369]

Flexible weapons in general. Another example is "cloak and dagger", coat and dagger or gun. to blind, distract, thrown.

[@Cavouku]

Always interesting to see the "grabbable clothes" variants of wrestling. Off the cuff I know of: Judo/Jiu-Jitsu, Shuai Jiao (Ramsey Dewey covered it, basically Judo with shoulder-length sleeves), Sambo (with the lapels), Ringen, Turkic Towel Wrestling (I think you mentioned a towel wrestling from the UK at some point as well, but I may be mistaken), Sumo (diaper wrestling, kinda?), and I'm sure I'm missing some unique jacket/item setups. I *do* believe this is the first I've heard of scarves, though.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Cornish Wrestling uses a jacket, and Gouron uses a white shirt.

[@samuelyeates2326]

Is ringen that belted Icelandic wrestling that Forgotten Weapons and Jackson Crawford did a collaboration video on or is it something else?

[@Cavouku]

@@samuelyeates2326 I believe that's Glima. Ringen is German, if I'm right, and it's fully a jacket system. I believe it's done in HEMA competitions.

[@dhalav]

there is also Kurash/Koresh, a belt wrestling style from uzbekistan

[@Cavouku]

@dhalav I counted that under "Turkic Towel", but it's probably fair to differentiate belts and towels.

[@SwordFighterPKN]

Judo without a jacket?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yeah, seems that way!

[@kriskanapo9282]

Reminds me of techniques shown by a very nice French chap at the Phill Milner memorial last year. At the time they reminded me of Filipino martial arts and the sarong.

[@edi9892]

I've never heard or seen anything quite like it. The closest things I can think of are in Silat (basically a shemagh) and Sanatan Shastarvidya (very long silk, allegedly what thuggees used)

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

Interesting for sure. FIGHT TEAM!

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

Try it, it should work. I remember - eons ago - seeing a fellow in a collegiate judo competition who like to go into a rou d with his gi loosened up a bit, making the trained for lapel grips and throws more difficult. I also remember seeing him get manhandled by someone who exploited his tactic, looked reminiscent of what we see here. FIGHT TEAM!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There are a couple of guys in my club who specialise in gi chokes, theirs or mine, they aren't fussy...

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

@@EnglishMartialArts Don't you just have to respect someone who beats you considerately?

[@LuxisAlukard]

This style of wrestleing is really... stylish! =)

[@karlarsch-i7k]

i have a grappling backround (judo, greco, and 3rd degrre black belt luta livrre /brazilian catch wrestling) and have interest but no personal experiene in hema, espeacially thr graplling aspects......i like the idea on having the focus on using a soft weapon, instead of using graplling skills to help push metal into opps, The soft andd flexible way of soft weapons and through their edc aspects a very practical and totally unvisible wepon / self defence tool..........greetings

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I hadn't really considered the self defence implications of being able to easily incapacitate someone with your scarf!

[@vercingetorixwulf9298]

April fool's day? October so can't be. However, I've never heard of this so it has my interest, thanks .....

[@dhalav]

the backbreaker techniques was also known in france as "le coup du père François". It was used by the Apaches gangs to mug people in the street. It seems that one man used the technique while another punched the victim in the stomach/chest and then emptied their pockets. BTW my comment about the wrestlers in the vidéo keep disappearing so I'll send you their contact on IG

[@Ozs_secret_researcher]

That's very interesting. Are there any good English Language sources that you would recommend on this subject, or are they all in French?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Sounds pretty brutal and extremely effective!

[@dhalav]

​@@Ozs_secret_researcherno I don't know any english sources on the topic. Maybe in the translation of Émile André's book, La Défense Dans La Rue or in bartitsu material.

[@Ozs_secret_researcher]

​​@@dhalavThanks for the reply. I have a translation of Emilé's book, and one or two old books on savate. I'm sure there is loads of info in French that has yet to be translated into English.

[@dhalav]

@@Ozs_secret_researcher oh definitly, there is a group dedicated to french martial arts that gathers, research and practice all this material. There is a lot that has been gathered, not only for the 18th and 19th but also before. There are several youtube channel dedicated to them if you are curious.

[@Ozs_secret_researcher]

While you are right Oz about the issue of scarf length being longer in the video than we typically see in mediaeval imagery, there is one wood carving, from Herefordshire, which shows long scarves such as these. FIGHT TEAM!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'm very happy to accept it was authentic, but based on that image, not accurate. Nitpicking though in fairness...

[@Ozs_secret_researcher]

Fair enough

[@toddapplegate3988]

I wish you lived near by just to explore this stuff. History +wrestling wow

[@EnglishMartialArts]

One day my friend!

[@samuelyeates2326]

Does it seem reasonable to assume that this style of wrestling mimics a relelavant property of a common article of clothing (perhaps a cloak)? Would one use a scarf to train to fight an opponent in cloak, or while wearing a cloak onself? Ever since watching a video on Icelandic wrestling, I have been wondering how wrestling systems with seemingly contrived garment systems came to be. It just seems so contrived compared to an actual fight. I have similar questions about systems with really specific grips, like Scottish backhold wrestling.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Hoods were very common, it's possible that the scarf represents a hood. As to backhold I always assumed it came from belt wrestling and was created when people stopped wearing belts so much.

[@TheDevourerOfPancake]

Do you not see the over under clinch in 'real fights'? It's one of the most common tie ups in MMA and wrestling

[@zekelerossignol7590]

Good use of a martial art belt :)

[@brutalwork6042]

Are sources say it is a peasant's game, nobleman's, clergy's etc? It reminds me of historical reenactors' games in their free time at the camp. using shirts, not scarves. Like playing rugby with chainmail wrapped around your shirt, wearing only. underpants

[@bolieve603]

So we have a new entry in the gradation: pants and jacket with sleeves, pants and sleeveless jacket, sleeved jacket but no pants, pants and scarf, pants only, underwear, nude. It seems as if people fought in literally every stage of dress and undress possible

[@antoineduhamel5867]

Do you think the wrestlers started the fight wearing the scarfs and tried to grab each other by the scarf, or did they each have a scarf in their hands and try to capture each other with it ? On other words, was the scarf a piece of clothing, or a weapon ?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Interesting question!

[@nicholasneyhart396]

​@EnglishMartialArts I would reckon that all clothed styles of wrestling had the clothes as a weapon at the start, and some lost them over time.

[@themartialartsmonk352]

I was thinking the same thing about the lapel. What sources are there for scarf wrestling?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Lots of scattered incidental images, some carvings, and one German manuscript with 3 images.

[@tsafa]

#1 - don't be Snobs #2 - HEMA = historical European martial arts NOT... FMBD Historical Manual Based Dueling If you're using realistic Historical European weapons or weapon similators and fighting in a defensive manner... its HEMA The first time I saw BUHURT I thought to myself that that was BS, I have come to realize that a lot of historical fighting probably looked more like that then the longsword duals that we typically do. Gang up on a guy, take him down and hold him for ransom or murder him. The large SCA battles are also probably more realistic combat then anything we do in any small club. There's a lot to be learned in a lot of those other groups. #3- Historical Manuel's were meant for people that already knew how to fight. Possibly having already been to war in mass formations and wanting to improve the individual dueling skills. The most important part of HEMA is fighting in a historical context. The manuals can aid that but they are not the centerpiece everything revolves around. #4 - Don't be snobs. Learn what you can from other medieval groups and teach them what you can. 5-Fighting has to be the core element of HEMA for it to be a martial art. Not academics.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

Fight Team!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

FIGHT TEEEEEEAM!

[@CraigAB69]

I have only recently got back to Judo, and I'm not a black belt so take what I say with a grain of salt. The arm around the neck looks like a cross between koshi guruma (the arm around the head) and uchi mata (leg reap). kzbin.info/www/bejne/iYaaepdsqrt9apY kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4bThKhrf5KVndk

[@Philo68]

A snood? Fight Team? Help?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

🤣

[@hiltonian_1260]

Seems like yet another mode of wrestling sharply restricted to allow working men to fight without disabling each other. Garotting aside.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I wonder if the scarfs make it more dangerous, not less.

[@hiltonian_1260]

@@EnglishMartialArts Depends a lot on allowed techniques, but good point. In contrast, consider “all-in” fighting on the American frontier, where some men deliberately grew their thumbnails long to gouge their opponent’s eyes. A scarf seems like a relatively safe limitation compared to what was going on in boxing/grappling in general.