Writing a Good Story vs a Great Novel

[@dburgessnotburger]

Write what matters ❤ love that. When something matters to us, we make sure we see it through.

[@adrianinha19]

That's just an opinion, not all novels need to be a deep, obscure treaty on sociology or philosophy. Let people write what they want, and read what they want. Only time will tell if the book you are dissing right now as merely "entertaining" will the pass the test of time better than the "great" novel.

[@CobraFlows]

Capitalism has trained people to get instant gratification. Ironically the people who created the most powerful wealth generating institutions, and world changing technologies were the opposite of modern people. They had patience and could hold their focus on slower and dense subject matter. It boils down to dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine. Currently we are a dopamine driven society.

[@neroresurrected]

I agree on that let people write what they want. However he does have a point in what he is saying in that most good stories aren’t well written while most classic novels are no matter the language. This is not an accident either. Great authors ARE great writers. They possess a command of the written word unrivaled in most cases amongst their own peers and this shows in the greatest works of fiction that have ever been written. There’s no other way around that. As I once heard the late Shelby Foote say “Most so called good writers aren’t good to me because they write bad, I long since stop caring what a story is about or how it ends what I care about is how it is told”. This is the mark of what separates a good/average writer from a great one IMO. The painful fact for many young aspiring authors is writing is all about skill, and like most trades you either are good at it or not. This fact has become obscured in today’s market to the point that everyone thinks they can write a great story, which has led to an over saturation of God awful written material today so that has a consequence we have forgotten what makes a great writer/novelist to begin with, which is to the speakers in this videos point regarding “aesthetic confusion”. What younger or new aspiring authors don’t understand is that just having an idea for a story is not the end all be all of a writer. Most just want to write that great story idea in their heads but these are also the same people who have the most difficulty translating their work through the written word effectively because they lack the grammatical skill set and an accompanying world view experience of life that most great writers simply possess. Most novice fiction writers are in the teens to mid 20s, so realistically what can a 25 yr old teach people about life to their reading audience beyond their own ever changing opinions?? As a novice writer, you have to exhibit a lived experience/personal wisdom in your own personal life that can in turn be shared with the wider world at large. You have to possess a profound message about yourself and/or your stories that transcend the written word and can help people understand more about themselves as individuals while simultaneously understand the human condition more which is partially the job of being a novelist. (The other being able to tell a good entertaining story) Most of the great writers in history were natural born writers apart from being great readers themselves who typically wrote fiction AND non fiction whether it be poems, letters, journals, memoirs or kept diaries which are all great places to develop craft and skill. By the time some if not most came around to writing novels their skill level with the written word was as sharp as a razor. If a book is dissed today it’s likely to remain the case if it hasn’t undone that initial reaction in a 5 to 10 yr period after publication. That means it was in fact a crappy written story all along. This is not true about the classics, hence they are called classics, which makes them superior to bestsellers precisely because they are not trendy, their themes are universal and well written works fiction that have stood the test of time.

[@mohammadtausifrafi8277]

No one is compelling people to write deep stuff. People are free to write garbage, and to judge what is garbage. Whether people should be free or not is an opinion also.

[@AdaltheRighteous]

Writing is not a skill that people are either good at or not. It’s a trade that people learn over many years. It’s like forging a sword. This idea that writing is an innate talent that you’re either good or bad at has kept more potential authors from writing than anything else. I hate seeing it

[@ilovetech8341]

I love sci fi and science but I can't get into 90% of the novels, by the best writers. The characters are shallow. The stories are cliché.

[@scottsteele1908]

I like what was said but feel a better way of saying it is: talent is equally distributed around the world, but opportunity is not. I am sure there is a boy in Kenya who can write better than I can, but will be undiscovered because of challenges in his life. But the opposite may be true as well. A woman of fiscal wealth may be published because her husband knows a man in the publishing world and gets her book published who outright sucks.

[@neroresurrected]

Republic of letters > Democracy of Bestsellers 💯 I agree with the speaker in the video here in that he does have a point in what he is saying in that most good stories aren’t well written while most classic novels are no matter the language. This is not an accident either. Great authors ARE great writers. They possess a command of the written word unrivaled in most cases amongst their own peers and this shows in the greatest works of fiction that have ever been written. There’s no other way around that. As I once heard the late Shelby Foote say “Most so called good writers aren’t good to me because they write bad, I long since stop caring what a story is about or how it ends what I care about is how it is told”. This is the mark of what separates a good/average writer from a great one IMO. The painful fact for many young aspiring authors is writing is all about skill, and like most trades you either are good at it or not. This fact has become obscured in today’s market to the point that everyone thinks they can write a great story, which has led to an over saturation of God awful written material today so that has a consequence we have forgotten what makes a great writer/novelist to begin with, which is to the speakers point in this videos regarding “aesthetic confusion”. What younger or new aspiring authors don’t understand is that just having an idea for a story is not the end all be all of a writer. Most just want to write that great story idea in their heads but these are also the same people who have the most difficulty translating their work through the written word effectively because they lack the grammatical skill set and an accompanying world view experience of life that most great writers simply possess. Most novice fiction writers are in the teens to mid 20s, so realistically what can a 25 yr old teach people about life through their work to their reading audience beyond their own ever changing opinions?? As a novice writer, you have to exhibit a lived experience/personal wisdom in your own personal life that can in turn be shared with the wider world at large. You have to possess a profound message about yourself and/or your stories that transcend the written word and can help people understand more about themselves as individuals while simultaneously understand the human condition more which is partially the job of being a novelist. (The other being able to tell a good entertaining story) Most of the great writers in history were natural born writers apart from being great readers themselves who typically wrote fiction AND non fiction whether it be poems, letters, journals, memoirs or kept diaries which are all great places to develop craft and skill. By the time some if not most came around to writing novels their skill level with the written word was as sharp as a razor. If a book is dissed today it’s likely to remain the case if it hasn’t undone that initial reaction in a 5 to 10 yr period after publication. That means it was in fact a crappy written story all along. This is not true about the classics, hence they are called classics, which makes them superior to bestsellers precisely because they are not trendy, their themes are universal and well written works fiction that have stood the test of time.

[@andreasboe4509]

Couldn't agree more. Hear, hear.

[@sarajbosna]

"I believe in the republic of letters not in the democracy of bestsellers." Thought provoking.

[@nicholaswideman6658]

The other point that I would like to make is that a novel is after all just entertainment. And so if a novel tells a good entertaining story that most people like who cares if the subject matter is something serious or a zany comedy. If it moves you and you really enjoyed it the author did his job.

[@tonisumblin2719]

I completely agree.

[@captainnolan5062]

This is the continuing pulp fiction vs "literature" argument. Peanuts vs Caviar. A lot more peanuts are sold that caviar. Pulp writers are "real novelists" as are writers of "literature." Note that this guy calls good stories "schlock" and he calls the other novels "serious literature." Lester Dent (Kenneth Robeson, author of the Doc Savage series) wrote 181 novels which were good stories vs. Harper Lee who wrote one great novel and 1 good story (or Emily Bronte who wrote one great novel). Both kinds of writing can be enjoyed by readers, but the two types of books serve a different purpose. Think of it this way: Books are tools, and different books are designed to do different things (it is more difficult for people to realize this because all books look 'basically' alike from the outside, whereas hand tools are shaped differently depending on what they are designed to do and look much different from one another). So, ....Is a screwdriver a better tool than a saw? Is a hammer a better tool than a tape measure? Well, a screwdriver is better at setting screws into wood, but you can use the handle to pound a nail into a board, though not with ease; a hammer will serve you better than a screwdriver for pounding nails into boards. Therefore, if you have a plane trip coming up and you want some light reading, say a good 'page turner' of a story to while away the time, A Doc Savage novel will do a better job at that task than Crime and Punishment (just as a hammer is better for pounding nails than a screwdriver). But if you want to enjoy an in depth psychological character study, then Crime and Punishment will serve you better than, say "Doc Savage, Man of Bronze." Crime and Punishment is a tool designed for a different task than is a Doc Savage novel.

[@themisanthropechannel8052]

I enjoyed The Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath, but it wasn't a perfect story. You were left grasping at what Depression feels like and their was no resolution to her plight.

[@cahtahsheik3671]

I feel that is what he meant by his words. He didn't mean make a good story but a great novel that leaves you thinking what could be since a story has a start and finish while a novel starts and ends never really has a finish.

[@ajgreenman112]

When he's talking about books that are all the same and appeal to the flock is he referring to James Patterson?

[@tonisumblin2719]

I like James Patterson. He hooks me from the first page.

[@nicholaswideman6658]

I agree that marketing is a deceptive tool to gauge. Just because author x sold large numbers of books doesn't mean everyone thought it was the next great American novel. But there's always a BUTT. There is something to be said for the serious and experienced novelist when compared to a rookie. Few new authors have enough raw talent to be considered with the time tested experience of veteran authors who have proven themselves but who cares right art is subjective 10 people or 100 could read the same book and have a different perspective and opinion about it.

[@mysillyusername]

Well said. I haven't read Jonathan Frenzen and I may not now rush it either...

[@davidronin1536]

I really like your low-key brilliance.

[@ndril]

"The stuff I like is meaningful and genuinely good, everything else is tripe" ok buddy

[@wabakoen5548]

Watching someone cope with lack of skill

[@scruffypupper]

You told us what a "good story" IS, and you told us what a "great story" SHOULD be, but you never actually explained what a "great story" IS other than some vague hits on literary writers that reads like heady hyperbole. Specificity and examples would have worked best.

[@StevePhillips]

Interesting tips, I'm reading story at the moment it is not super brilliant story, but I like the writing style, my friend told me about it, it's Any Human heart

[@billiemiller8953]

📖 👑 🦠.