B-17 Bomber Tracking and Firing at a Moving Target

Enclosed is a video discussing how WWII B-17 bomber gunners used their ring sights in targeting and shooting down German fighters.
Topics include:
a. Maintaining a 20 inch sight base
b. The B-17 Machine gun 35 mil-rad ring sight
c. German Fighter Interceptor pursuit curve
d. Rad offsets
e. B-17 Bomber gunner position firing and deflection firing
f. Examples of deflection firing
g. Gunner’s cone of deflection
Library of B-17 Gunstations and Gunsights:
B-17 Tail Gunner Survivability (part 1): • B-17 Bomber Crew Tail ...
B-17 Tail Gunner Combat Effectiveness (part 2): • B-17 Crew Tour of Duty...
B-17 Ball Turret (part 1) Crew Survivability: • B-17 Bomber Ball Turre...
B-17 Ball Turret (part 2) External Features: • B-17 Bomber Ball Turre...
B-17 Ball Turret (Part 3) Combat Effectiveness: • B-17 Ball Turret, Comb...
B-17 vs. B-29 Gunsights: • WWII B-17 vs. B-29 Bom...
B-17 Gunsights for Ranging: • B-17 Bomber, Using Rin...
B-17 Gunsights for Tracking: • B-17 Bomber Tracking a...
B-17 Browning .50 Cal Machine Guns: • B-17 Bomber's Browning...
A high quality PDF copy of this material can be downloaded here:
drive.google.com/file/d/1UkUE...

[@elebeu]

This is one of the best channels I have come across. You have in depth coverage of the topics with a no nonsense presentation.

[@lunaticfringe8066]

I knew trying to aim at a moving target by a bomber's gunner was a tricky procedure. Thanks for showing how it worked!

[@jharris0341]

I just found this channel and I'm impressed by the concision and professionalism of your presentations.

[@joemccarthy7913]

My dad was a flight engineer/top turrent gunner aboard B17 Ack Ack Annie and told me about rad deflection. I never knew the details about this till I watched your excellent video. Thanks!!

[@chuckdacon4797]

Back in the early 60's when I was a kid an arcade at a local mini-golf course had several bomber top turret simulators. Even as a kid I could tell these weren't purpose-built arcade games but ex-military. They were big, heavy and solidly built. You looked through a periscope type viewer at enemy fighters swooping in at you from different angles and every hit was mechanically recorded on a counter. The animation was excellent, especially for its time. Needless to say, I loved that game.

[@tommyluvstraci]

Fascinating. I didn’t know there was a procedure like this. I still wonder how bombers avoided shooting other bombers.

[@HypeBeast764]

Same way soldiers prevent themselves from shooting other friendly soldiers

[@three_strike175]

The b17 is big enough to see

[@kengrimes1012]

You stop firing !!

[@mattwright501]

I'm sure it happened

[@davidguardado4739]

Ofc there is working method to gunnery, fck how do you think we won the war by sheer fckin chance??

[@flyingfortressrc1794]

I'm really glad I found your channel recently. It's very informative. Thanks.

[@HM2SGT]

Interesting. I always figured it was one of those skills that an art; practice, experience and a healthy dose of Kentucky windage. Now I know.

[@timdake]

Absolutely wonderful explanation of bomber gunnery training. Very well done. I would like a little more 3 dimensional information, based on the vertical drop of the 50 cal trajectory. This truly makes helps to understand how difficult the gunners task was.

[@theflyingfool]

That's really interesting!

[@user-zn7tj3xc7k]

wonderfull. i had watched a wwii training video about this, but you explain it a lot bettee

[@SkunkMonkey991]

We used to have a practice motocross track built over a huge target mound on a former gunnery school. We found tons of 30 and 50 cal spent bullets.

[@Redhand1949]

Well done!

[@JustMe00257]

I suspected the author could be an engineer before reading the channel's description. Very interesting and detailed technical insight into WW2 US bombers.

[@evanswinford7165]

My dad was a waist gunner on a B26. The War Department made a training file with Mel Blanc as the voice over guy. Also very good, worth watching.

[@jharris0341]

Respect to your father.

[@decimated550]

I know that one . The simple guy lol

[@shakeydavesr]

I had just watched that one before this video here. On periscope

[@jdos2]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6CrgImLgLSWZq8 There might be a video specific to the B26 - but the above is for the B-17.

[@nathangreer8219]

I own a 1942 AAF Shotgun (LC Smith Field Grade) The shotguns were purchased by the Army Air Force to use in bomber crew training, where they shot at clay targets, even from moving vehicles.

[@mlester3001]

My dad started out as a B17 waist gunner. Oddly enough, the gunner shown at the beginning of the video looks a lot like my father. Interesting to see what he had to know to operate the 50 caliber machine guns.

[@hondomurray7927]

Thank you for making this video, it was very informative

[@ypaulbrown]

fantastic video.......I am smiling here, as your voice and delivery sound a lot like the Chap who does the viral video 'Honey Badger Don't Care',,,,don't change anything on delivery, your videos are well researched and very informative.best wishes, Paul

[@jrr0863]

Awesome channel. I have learned so much about B-17's and other aircraft Have you explored the effectiveness of the Bendix chin turret? Now that would be an interesting topic.

[@danielsmith139]

Sir..Having recently visited the Mighty 8th museum in Savannah Georgia, and then discovering your videos..It seems to me that your work should be available there.! A Perfect fit..I will also inquire on the museum side to see if this could be done, with your permission of course.

[@colinblick4903]

There was a cartoon showing these deflections during the war….. which has been shown on U tube it was very good ….. probably shown to aircrews at the time.

[@c3aloha]

That cartoon was great because it showed how little time the gunner actually had to fire on the target.

[@josephpadula2283]

There was an old WWII movie , not documentary ,that showed the B-17 and other bomber gunner training in Texas. They trained in moving vehicles and shot at moving Targets on train cars. Each shot different color tracer bullets so they could see who hit what. Can’t remember name of movie , obscure B&w old movie.

[@tomgraham7755]

My father was a B 17 tail gunner during the war

[@bob456fk6]

Do they some sort of a lockout mechanism on the guns so they can't be pointed at their own plane?

[@ianmoe]

Thanks!

[@WWIIUSBombers]

Ian, thanks for the contribution. You are the first person to donate to the channel. I appreciate the support!

[@ianmoe]

@@WWIIUSBombers you do a great job! Hope to be the first of many.

[@MrLemonbaby]

Another great video, thank you very much but I have a question that has dogged me for a long time. Hundreds of attacking bombers, with gunners, some of whom were brand new, in a high stress situation (the cold), even higher stress when attacked by fighters, and so my question; how many times did the gunners "gun" other bombers? I'm thinking it must have been common. Suggestion for another vid, if I may. From Douhet to the end of the war the American philosophy was, the bombers will always get through! And positing that heavy defensive gun fire will discourage pressing home the attack (even if the fighter is not shot down), I wonder if the AAF ever calculated how many guns an attacking fighter would face from any given vector? I guess I'm asking from which angle could the bombers best defend against?

[@smokerjim]

Would anyone know if a pintle mounted gun is affected by eye dominance?

[@McRocket]

Very interesting. Thank you. Question? In this scenario - does wind velocity make any, appreciable difference to the bullet's trajectory? ☮

[@timdake]

All of the vehicles involved “should” be experiencing the same “wind”, so compensation (in theory), would not be necessary.

[@McRocket]

@@timdake I am talking about the trajectory of the bullets in relation to environmental, wind speeds - irrespective of the target.

[@juanzulu1318]

Great vid. But I am not sure if I got it. The concept of leading the target is clear to me. But what is the difference to deflection? Is it the fact that in air combat both the target as well as the attacker are moving? If so, do we call the aiming on a fighter plane also deflection ?

[@oldgrunt5806]

yes

[@joechang8696]

don't you also need to aim somewhat high? or is that already factored into the sight? 500 yd is 1500 ft, for bullet travel time of approx 0.5 sec, falling 4 ft?

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoi8oqhnftFshtU

[@kenneth9874]

. 50 cals don't drop nearly that much

[@tsufordman]

This sounds like an academic moral booster. I know it is based on sound data, but I'd bet crews developed their own techniques in combat. I would think burst at incoming fighters well outside of 600 yards to let them know they aren't welcome would be a variation.

[@isaacnickel]

I think u let them know that u notice them

[@kengrimes1012]

Wasting ammo

[@danmyers9372]

From what I have read this practice was not uncommon for bombers flying at night. Fighters would try to sneak up on the bombers without being seen. A short burst of fire with tracers let the fighter pilot know he had been spotted.

[@BMF6889]

IT would be helpful if you define what a Rad is. I assume it means radius, but this doesn't explaine how the rad is used by the gunner.

[@shakeydavesr]

Thank you for the explanation.

[@peckelhaze6934]

One thing I often think about is when a machine gun is fired at a fighter plane or bomber. A high percentage miss the plane and fall to earth. One of those hitting you on the head is going to kill you. I have never heard or read of anyone reportedly dying from this.

[@bob456fk6]

I heard that in the middle East people like to celebrate by firing their guns in the air. Sometimes people on the ground are injured, maybe killed. It's rare but it does happen. You would think that with tens of thousands of rounds being fired during a bomber raid, people on the ground would be endangered. I haven't heard of a report though.

[@BradBrassman]

The expression "The full nine yards" is said to originate from B17 gunners and their ammunition belts?

[@mac4boys541]

Wrong wrong wrong. WW1 Vickers machine gun crews were using the term LONG before ANY yanks showed up. when locking down the trigger on their water cooled MGs and doing area denial, it was called giving then the whole nine yards. And it was an old term then. It was a term from the British Empire, India to be exact, THE WHOLE NINE YARDS was a term a women of substance used when buying her SARI, meaning she was able to afford the correct amount of material, 9 yards, that it took to have a FULL Sari. That term was integrated into common usage to mean, Getting or giving it all. Yes American crews used to term meaning they used up their ammo, BUT they would have picked it up.

[@texasrockshillcountry6574]

Sounds great, but what was the success rate? I hope this is wrong, but I heard throughout the entire WWII campaign that all of the B-17 gunners managed to shoot down only 6 enemy fighters as opposed to the thousands of B-17s shot down. If thar was the case, it was a waste of men.

[@duane356]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHa7lZaolJ2IadU

[@snakeplissken2148]

that story is wrong. the memphis belle alone had 8 kill markings for shot down enemy fighters. yes propaganda use, i know. But if you look on pictures from other bombers, you see bombs for a bombing mission and often swastikas or rising sun flags for shot down fighters. Although the airmen often tend to exagerate their success, i doubt that all of em just used the markings to a total unrealistic extend.

[@bendover6987]

The ghost of Kiev got that the first day .

[@snakeplissken2148]

@@bendover6987 yes but only because he was helped by zeus who struck enemy planes with lightnigbolts.

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoi8oqhnftFshtU

[@richardstevens2306]

I think you got that wrong with A bomber travelling at 200mph & the fighter coming in perpendicular on the port side, saying the gunner would aim to the left of the fighter. The wind would deflect the rounds further left. Surely the gunner would aim to the right of the fighter ?

[@WWIIUSBombers]

It may seem counter-intuitive at first, but the bomber gunners always aimed between the fighter and the tail of the bomber. This assumes the fighter is flying a standard attacking pursuit curve. It was irrelevant as to the side the fighter is attacking from, the amount of deflection is only dependent on the angle of attack relative to the bomber.

[@FranktheDachshund]

It is because the bullets are traveling at bomber flight speed (though sidelong) in the direction of bomber travel and at bullet speed toward the enemy, so you aim left to compensate.

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoi8oqhnftFshtU

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

@@WWIIUSBombers like this.... kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoi8oqhnftFshtU

[@danmyers9372]

@@FranktheDachshund - Exactly.

[@LMTDDS]

Bomber gunners "do not fire ahead of their target" and "do not lead their target" (?)

[@kingduck3192]

2 things first stop putting links to videos on top of your screens second how is offsetting a rad different than leading a target?

[@hughgreenwood5943]

Bomber gunners don't lead a fighter, they lag it.

[@johnciummo3299]

Air gunners consistently exaggerated the number of enemy they shot down. On the Regunsburg, Sweinfurt raid air gunners claimed to have shot down over 200 enemy fighters. That number was readjusted to 28 after close study in after action debriefings. This problem persisted throughout the European bombing campaign in WW. At the end of the war the survey conducted on the accuracy of high level bombing was conducted and it was found that only three bombs out of every one hundred dropped by the Eight Air Force came within two miles of the attended target. The lack of bombing accuracy at high levels was a primary reason the Eight switched to carpet bombing on German targets and cities. So much for the for the theory of High Level Strategic bombing so long touted by so called experts.

[@B-and-O-Operator-Fairmont]

If four guys are shooting at one fighter and it explodes in mid-air, four gunners will claim the kill. Most were only giving an honest assessment of what they saw.

[@tootired76]

Sounds like BS they told these young men as they went off to war...

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoi8oqhnftFshtU

[@fjmagar]

Very very interesting. The curve shown at 0:45 is the "dog curve" or radiodrome, which describes a dog chasing a hare. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiodrome