Was Rhaegar Targaryen The Villain? - Game of Thrones Podcast

▬ Video Description ▬
In this video we discuss the would be chosen one: Rhaegar Targaryen and how his selfish desires led to the ruin of his house and deaths of thousands. Also Preston trashes Howland Reed for a minute.
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▬ Information ▬
Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. A Game of Thrones is one of the most successful television series to ever made and continues to captivate audiences all over the world. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil conflict among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter and the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
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[@oatman15]

shout out Robert Baratheon for putting Rheagar in his place. People forget how justified this man was for this rebellion. between a broken betrothal, his friends family murdered, lyanna stolen or running off, and the craziness of Aerys its like the perfect story for victory. but it leaves him empty, and him and Ned traumatized, forced into marriages, and launched into responsibilities none were destined for. Robert gets a lot of shit, sometimes deserving, but he is 10x the man Rheagar was.

[@cazyjohn2005]

i learn that song of ice and fire isn't black and white, we see the truth from a certain point of view.

[@Knives7777]

Ours is the fury

[@oatman15]

@@cazyjohn2005 which is why we never get a Baratheon POV, it spoils Rheagar, it gives too much to the contrary of a positive memory. It’s good writing on George’s part.

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

Based.

[@t_ylr]

What is this Baratheon propaganda lol? If you read the text at face value Rheagar is a kidnapper, a rapist, and he fought for the Mad King, but in the subtext GRRM is clearly trying to tell us this narrative is BS. I think the simplest reading is that he's one of the heroes of the story. I think of Rheagar as the Dr. Strange of ASOIAF because he did something crazy in order to save the world. ASOIAF is full of characters who's motivations are based on lies and misunderstandings. A lot of the characters are supposed to misunderstand Rheagar. Catelyn's hatred of Jon is more tragic and dramatic because R+L=J.

[@chriscueva1866]

When George said “the hero died before the story began” he was obviously talking about Daemon Targaryen, the Rogue Prince.

[@wisdommanari6701]

QUE THE MUSIC

[@GabrielRodrigues-ro1ep]

Baummmmm baum baum baum baum baum baummmmmmm tiktiktaktitikitiktak

[@DeepikaGinger]

Wasn’t he a douche too?

[@musicallynerdy8860]

Could be Brandon Stark (Ned’s older brother who was originally going to marry Catelyn). He seemed like a nice guy before Aerys had him killed

[@DeepikaGinger]

@@musicallynerdy8860 Not that great. He didn’t treat Lady Dustin very well

[@mitchyG90210]

I'm imagining Rhaeger whispering "prophecy baby" while doing jazz hands

[@ianjay4596]

Damn!! Should have never taken him to see the mizz

[@potterpal5]

Fans: I like ASOIAF because it is original and breaks fantasy tropes. On a completely separate note, I think Jon Snow is the Chosen One and will defeat the evil white walkers and save the world and become king.

[@TammyJerkChicken]

OMG haha yh dude

[@TheEnecca]

same with the show were people got mad that Jon didnt have an epic duel with the night king. yes it was bad but not because of that.

[@Borgcow]

@@TheEnecca Right, like if they had done something a little less stupid with it I woulda been cool, maybe even impressed by the subversion. But him screaming at some dragon he didn’t even know was most unsatisfying

[@eds1942]

Who says the White Walkers are evil?

[@TheEnecca]

@@Borgcow i think that could have worked actually. he thought that he was the chosen one and that it was his quest to kill the night king, but in the end he doesnt eben reach him and so he screams in frustration as he almost gets killed by a random dragon. that could habe been a nice touch and subversion if the rest of the thing made more sense.

[@thalmoragent9344]

It's also funny how people don't mention that Viserys wasn't a dick through and through. Yes he was still somewhat mad, but we don't hear how he loved his mother and part of him blamed Dany for his death, and they despite that, still did his best to keep Dany with him and taught her all she needed to know. Compare that to Cersei practically planning or fantasizing ways to kill Tyrion for doing the same thing. I suppose he's not so much as mad as he was just sort of angry. He also had to sell his mother's crown, the only object that, in the books, brought him some semblance of happiness. Yes he had his bouts arrogance and his slight narcissism, but so has Dany. Viserys was an Angry idiot. Not justifying or saying he's this "Super tragic, misunderstood person", but Viserys as a kid was around at a time of great turmoil and loss. Dany as a baby sort of just slept and fussed through much of it. Viserys was smart enough to get where he did, but dumb enough to not see how patience was a virtue, and Empathy is powerful. He was less so like Aerys the Mad King, and a bit close to Maelor the Cruel, albeit not that bad of course. More angry and bitter than anything.

[@idek7438]

Also, imagine growing up as a literal prince till 9 years old, and then suddenly being homeless. Like that's gotta mess you up badly.

[@marseldagistani1989]

So he was like Bittersteel to be more precise

[@thalmoragent9344]

​​@idek7438 Yep, the living conditions, running from assasins, losing everything, much of his family... crazy childhood for anyone, Royalty or not

[@thalmoragent9344]

​​@@marseldagistani1989 Kind of yeah, albeit Bittersteel was still more at fault for his decisions regarding constantly placing Blackfyre's in the way of War.

[@davidbodor1762]

I always viewed Rhaegar as a sort of High-Functioning Sociopath. Not caring about people, not really having empathy but mimicking it and learning things quickly, picking up songs and sword and obsessing over prophecy. I think he's just this really odd man who's charismatic and smart in a sense but has no sense of empathy.

[@sprinklesandwrinkles]

Agree. None of his actions speak of a good person.

[@brianlowe904]

You literally have no basis to make that judgment. Everything we hear about Rhaegar is either from people that admired him or hated him and the view we have of his actions is almost 20 years after the fact from nobody that was actually ever there. If you have a confident opinion of Rhaegar at all that opinion says more about you than it does rhaegar, also dumb cause your making a judgment call off of the freaking silhouette of a person

[@davidbodor1762]

@@brianlowe904 You gotta work with what you've got. There's a reason why I said that this is how I viewed him. Not necessarily how he actually is. And my views of him aren't really shaped by comments on his character. Neither the hateful nor the admiring. I mostly think he's a high-functioning sociopath because he seems to learn really fast, he's a bit of a polymath. Bookish, musically inclined but also good with the sword, he definitely learns quick and he appears to be rather obsessive about books on prophecy which is supported by multiple accounts. He also appears perhaps a bit lonely in a sense? He doesn't seem to have any real friends, it's mostly just people fawning over him be it men or women. A lot of people like him, but does he like those people? A lot of people are in love with him, but is he in love with anyone? I have my opinion on both those questions based on all the information we have now. If new information comes along I will re-evaluate my position on it. Oh and by the way, sociopath is not the same as evil. Sociopaths are just wired differently, that doesn't mean they can't be good, just wanted to clarify that. There's a ton of sociopaths that live very successful lives, have families and live relatively normally.

[@davidbodor1762]

@@sprinklesandwrinkles Well, him being a high-functioning sociopath doesn't mean he's a bad person or a good person. He's just different. A lack of empathy doesn't necessarily mean that that person is evil. They can still mimic empathy to some degree if they see it in others and can follow internal and external codes to live more or less ordinary lives.

[@kettenschlosd]

there are also two types of ampathy, and a sociopath only lacks one: affective empathy, where you feel what another person might be feeling. sociopaths do have cognitive empathy, which means they know what a person is feeling based on external factors affective empathy is crying with a friend because their mother died. cognitive is knowing that people are sad when their loved ones die. so a sociopath can still be interested in other peoples suffering and in helping them with it, they just dont habe much capability to "feel with them". a sociopath can philosophically argue themself into rather prosocial positions, but it doesnt come naturally to them.

[@darkdude103]

PJ: Rhaegar is trying to birth a Nazi Eugenics baby. Also PJ: Makes a series of videos on how Targaryens have special genes.

[@maskabater]

Also PJ: defends tv shows sea snake in a valyrian family used to keep genes pure

[@lathanandrews417]

You took the words outta my mouth!! Lol

[@armandopena4929]

Him explaining how the Targaryens have magic blood doesn't mean he agrees on their demigod beliefs. The Targaryens may have magical dragon blood, but that still doesn't mean they have the right to behave like a race of superhumans who are above everyone else.

[@PresterMike]

He’s a clown

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@armandopena4929 True, but they as royals at Least have a leg to stand on in terms of them having that naturally superior, magical blood that bonds with Dragons and makes them resistant or in some cases immune to fire. Plus, their inbreeding isn't nearly as fatal as our own real world inbreeding has been. They don't deserve to have their asses wiped all day, no, but they do have a point, they DO have special, in some ways superior genes to most of the other normal, common folk.

[@siomhe8539]

There is a statement in the book that Aerys refused to hold his granddaughter when she was presented at court and complained that she “smelled Dornish”. So even though he presumably arranged the alliance, he still looked down on it much the way Viserys looked down on Dany for her marriage to the Dothraki even though he presumably arranged it

[@hydroking2969]

this is why i dont get him reffering to jon as "secret nazi eugenic baby", it's such a big stretch both Lyanna and Ellia's kids are technically interracial, not even jon could be cosidered proper valereon having black hair etc. so i dunno how the nazi valereon would think he's pure valereon

[@strongback6550]

Their first choice was to find an old blood bride from Volantis, but that didn't work out.

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

​@@hydroking2969Because Rhaegar was practicing next level eugenics, he was trying to create the interracial ubermensch by combining the weird mysticism of Valyrians with the weird mysticism of the First Men to make this double-sided eugenics super-baby.

[@mochalotte4702]

This is why the black velaryons race change makes no sense. The Targaryens are racist. They do not allow dark haired Targaryens to ascend the throne. The fact that Daeron I married a Martell and his sister did too while his arch nemesis Daemon blackfyre was the spitting image of aegon the conquerer and represented a true pure Valyrian regime rather than one taken over by Dorne, a nation previously regarded as the enemy for over 100 years, is indicative of their distaste for darker haired and darker skinned folk. When daeron produced a son with dark hair, tan skin, and dark eyes as the heir to the throne, people did not like that and saw it as a Martell usurpation. Aerys having a distaste for the dornish smell of his granddaughter (despite he having Martell genes himself) was simply an inherited belief from his family that prides itself in being the last standing legitimate Valyrian family and only dragon riding family with historical practices of inbreeding in order to maintain blood purity.

[@donjuanmckenzie4897]

​@@hydroking2969because he's jewish and thats how his mind works

[@beanwaddlers1883]

Rhaegar literally used his power (like… he’s the heir to the entire kingdom) and charms to manipulate a child into spiriting away with him, far from all she knew, only to leave her (a young girl) very heavily pregnant and without a midwife to help at all. He didn’t even care about his mistress, he cared about his mad prophecies.

[@b_de_silva]

mad prophecies? i don't know if you've realized this but magic *IS* real in game of thrones, he truly believed in the prophecy and elia couldn't have children, that's what happened, besides lyanna didn't like robert and robert didn't want to be lyanna's husband he wanted to be Ned's brother.

[@carlrood4457]

@@b_de_silva Even in fictional worlds with real magic, prophecy is often dicey at best. The most famous is probably the story of Oedipus, a story where if either of the two people who'd heard the prophecy had done nothing, it never would have come to pass.

[@idek7438]

I'd hardly call a 16 year old a child even in our world, let alone in Westeros

[@arawn1061]

@@idek7438 still bad

[@mdraj5655]

@@b_de_silva doesn't justify all the death and destruction tho. if rhaegar really wanted another children with lyanna , he should have taken the bloody throne from his mad father first. atleast that would have increased number of people who would have fight for the throne when he kidnaps his favorite stark loli.

[@apBSThetic]

I don’t think he was a villain, that title went to his crazy father, but he really was a terrible husband, father, son, and leader. The characters in the stories keep waxing poetic words about this guy, but from all his actions, decisions and inactions within the story paint him as an apathetic, fantastical, self-absorbed individual.

[@aoifeandginny5569]

Was he around when his father was murdering people?

[@apBSThetic]

@@aoifeandginny5569 It was never stated explicitly, but we can infer from the fact that even the common people of King's Landing knew about his mental decline that the people within the Red Keep had a better picture about King Aerys II. I wouldn't put it past him to get his son to watch him burn 'wrongdoers' to burn into him to never go against him, because he was paranoid of Rhaegar.

[@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u]

@@aoifeandginny5569 he was planning to overthrow him, so he probably saw his father acting deranged

[@vogelrob10]

There are no more people without Jon snow. He inherits the crown without a rebellion if he does nothing. Seems like he cared for people.

[@poenpotzu2865]

Also half the time people only really like him because of his image. The man's admirable traits were all surface layer.

[@tarvoc746]

Are you guys sure that GRRMs "The hero died before the story begins" line doesn't actually refer to Jon Arryn?

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

Born amidst salt (salt mines in the mountains) and smoke (smoky mist of the Vale mountains). The Hand that was promised lmao

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

I had thought he was referring to Arthur Dayne, but the more I think about it, Rhaegar does seem like a deliberate send-up of traditional fantasy heroes in that he maintains the surface appearance of one while his actions are framed in a far more negative light

[@Wallace43266]

I think what George really meant, and apologies to comment this so late, is that the traditional fantasy trope hero died before the books. This is supposed to be the first breaking of traditional fantasy conventions.

[@calindicusar]

He didn't married a side chick. He married a daughter of a great house who was bethrowed to the head of another great house. Whether he raped her or he had married her officially he broke the laws of medieval law. He thought only about himself and the houses that he had done harm to corrected this. And many people did as a result.

[@arawn1061]

Yeah a side chick

[@ghoulishfool]

Every time I hear him talk about it, I am convinced more and more that Preston actually hates Ice and Fire and makes all his theory videos/podcasts out of spite.

[@roflcopter804]

Which is funny because I think his videos give GRRM wayyy to much credit as a writer in order to justify his theories.

[@ghoulishfool]

@@roflcopter804 Exactly! And I love Ice and Fire, as well as George, but there is no way he has thought this much into the shit Preston seems to laser in on on a consistent basis

[@handzar6402]

I feel the same way about his content.

[@EJD339]

@@ghoulishfool I listen to Preston but it’s interesting, not because I think it’s true. It’s just fascinating to see his mind work lol

[@jacobcurlee5917]

As a fan of Preston for 5 years, this is the most emotional/funny he got about ASIOAF in a LONG time

[@ivanbluecool]

Off topic but I don't see this brought up enough. Lyanna and Ellia have a lot of parreles to each other. Lyanna wild cold north noble who rather not get married died in childbirth to Elia sickly hot southern dornish noble who died fighting for her children. IRS interesting how George makes them mirrors in lyanna dying how ellia could have and vice versa. Also Ellia is the most tragic character dying the way she did and no show watchers she didn't agree to what rhegae did. How I see rhegar is the crazy guy but not directly more so how he lets prophecy take over his life and we see how it never works out. Story wise he only won a tournament and barristan felt bad losing as he could have prevented the war that killed many How he treats his wife is the biggest offense no one can ever justify as he messed up prophecy 3 times and got his wife and kids killed for going off with lyanna and being too much of a coward to return immediately wherever he went. Also he is a bad leader and I don't know why jorah and barrastan keep acting like he was a good one. Rhegae lead battle once and died to a real man with a war hammer and honestly dany is a better ruler than rhegar and better battle commander as well. Rhegae and viserys were just crazy in different ways like cat and cersie for their children

[@d4n4nable]

I mean, he was forced to marry her. Would anyone feel the same about a princess in a forced marriage leaving her husband?

[@ivanbluecool]

@@d4n4nable it's the same thing both ways. You break a marriage contract and that leads to major issues as shown. Rhegar if he was successful and let's pretend the show was right in jon being the son. What would happen then? Jon and ellias children would have to fight for the crown and you know the dornish would not take it well as they love power to be a free country with ellias children being the future rulers but Jon coming in would ruin that as the crown passes to the new heir not the former given up wife's children Remember Rob when he break his contract with the Frey that's basically what rhegar did. He agreed to it and broke his marriage same as lyanna with marrying Robert as it didn't matter if she likes Robert or not it was a marriage contract already agreed upon. Same if cat and lysa didn't agree to marry Ned and Jon arryns it would have lead to more dying as ancient times marriages were less about love and more about alliances It's basically as big as the red wedding where guest right is held to a high standard so people don't kill each other when visiting each other and that's what rhegar did with taking the stormland and stark marriage away and disowning his dornish wife for lyanna.

[@d4n4nable]

@@ivanbluecool Preston has on multiple occasions compared forced marriage of female characters to rape (culture) and explained it as an aspect of patriarchy. If so, then surely Rhaegar is a rape victim just as much. If we now come to the understanding that, screw his individual desires, he should have stopped the bitching and accepted his rigid role within society for the greater good, then alright. Are we going to apply that logic across the board, though?

[@d4n4nable]

Of course that ignores the very real prospect that he genuinely believed in the prophecy, which wasn't unreasonable from his perspective, and because of that did believe to have acted in the interest of the greater good. Preston can compare that to Nazis if he wants, but that's just silly. The people in that world aren't unreasonable to believe in gods, magic and prophecy. And the Targs were genetically superior, at least w.r.t. dragon riding and hatching. If an author creates a world where being a eugenic theist and supremacist is a sensible stance, that's the author's fault, not the character's. Preston is so obsessed with seeing the whole story as a cheap political analogy, he can't get over that anything he finds icky in the real world must mean the character was supposed to be a villain in the fantasy world. As if George were that shallow.

[@ivanbluecool]

@@d4n4nable honestly Preston kinda stretches what that means all the time. By that logic doren Martell and mad king r@ped rhegar and ellia which is why it's not the case. I don't follow him anymore as he lost the point of the story bringing up male vs female as George is more so about people vs people. It's more so taking away someone's right to love than direct abuse forcing a couple. See Ned and cat where cat didn't know Ned until they got married compared to Brandon who she loved that could be considered the same problem but cat grew to love Ned so it wasn't. Comparison wise lysa didn't like jon arryn so that could be said to be more of a forced marriage as her father killed the baby she was gonna have with little finger to make sure she could get married. Basically the children are used as pawns to get ahead in life as rhegar marrying ellia forced the dornish to side with the Targarean and mad king hated the dornish so it was a political play. Other example is tyrek Lannister marrying a baby and people making fun of him for it as he didn't want to be married to a baby and so he either died or ran away to get out of it. Basically both sides can be victims or love each other so it's not just one way or another as political marriages are more so to bind families rather than find love as eggs children broke thier marriages and that caused any issues if you see dunk and egg. Rob broke his marriage and caused the red wedding. Lyanna and rhegar broke hers and caused the rebellion which killed many as a result and so on. Breaking marriages is a big offense and that's why things ended up the way they did like the war of the roses in real life.

[@TheTheValer]

Preston just says Nazi over and over here as though they're the only people who ever believed they were better than another group of people in any way

[@leadleghighkick104]

Dude you’re getting defensive for no reason… or a reason,.

[@alex52043]

@@leadleghighkick104 People keep getting called nazis for no reason. Because they're being likened to nazis despite being decent people, they're starting doubt the evilness of the nazis.

[@leadleghighkick104]

@@alex52043 light haired racial supremacist who use eugenics to breed genetically “pure” offspring while subjugating those they deem inferior through violence, torture, murder, and mass killings. I suppose if we liken these people to nazis the word loses all its meaning

[@FlameQwert]

@@alex52043 seems like they had a screw loose if that's their takeaway

[@proudsaiyanprince2651]

@@leadleghighkick104it’s would have been much more of accurate comparison if he had mentioned Rome as Valyria was the Rome of this world and their attitudes towards “barbarians” and non Valyrians are similar. But Preston is so politically entrenched that that’s the only comparison his brain can come up with

[@lbonts]

when George says “the hero died before the story began” I kind of think of the great rebel leader Robert Baratheon, uniting the realm to take on a mad king to avenge his betrothed and best friends family, of course that version of Robert is long gone when the story starts

[@staytuned2L337]

Maybe the real hero is Lyanna

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

​@@staytuned2L337maybe the real hero is (are) the friends we made along the way

[@lolalo5527]

@@staytuned2L337fuck no

[@Bioguy5]

Y'all really drinking the Baratheon kool-aid about Rhaegar. Rhaegar was actively trying to depose his father because he knew Areys was unhinged. But his plot was interrupted when Areys showed up at Harrenhall where Rheagar had planned to get the support of the greater lords. It's unlikely that Rhaegar took Lyanna against her will--she had a crush on him, and Lyanna for sure did not like nor want to marry Robert anyway. Her going with Rhaegar was a fantasy as well as her way of rebelling against her father's southern ambitions. Robert's Rebellion happened VERY quickly after Lyanna disappeared. Likely Rhaegar didn't know what was going on as he was still traveling to the Tower of Joy, and by then it was too late. It's not like they had cell phones. Rhegar did not need to have Kingsguard to protect Elia. She was in King's Landing--likely the safest place for her (had Areys not opened the gates to Tywin). And on top of that, they're the King's Guard, not the Elia guard. Areys would have had them protecting him had they been there. Meanwhile, all the Tower of Joy had where 3 knights compared to the entire force King's Landing. The Targaryens are not Nazis. That's just stupid. And Rhaegar trying to fulfill a prophecy by having a baby is not eugenics. That's just stupid. I don't think you know what eugenics or Nazis are. The worst thing that Rhaegar did was not staying faithful to his wife and taking on another betrothed woman as his paramore. But Rhaegar did not start Robert's Rebellion--Areys and Brandon (and possibly Littlefinger) did. And Elia was likely not heartbroken over her husbands love affair since they weren't in love in the first place.

[@kingad8869]

Yea, I think Preston really missed the ball on the Nazi point. Rhaegar literally had kids with a Rhoyar and a First Man lady. He doesn't seem like the type that cares about blood purity. And I wouldn't consider royals marrying other nobles as eugenics, more like class warfare. All nobles think they are better than everyone else, the difference is that the Targaryens just got it in writing. And yes, Brandon definitely stayed the war. Did he honestly think that Aerys was going to let him kill the crown prince? He was committing treason the moment he did that, and Aerys made it worse when he killed Rickard for no reason and unhonorably at that. THEN goes on to demand the heads of Ned and Robert, again for no reason. They're were many chances to actually pervert war but Aerys wanted it.

[@Bioguy5]

@@kingad8869 Yeah, basically everyone just escalated the situation at every turn. It's a literal snowball effect and no one did anything to stop it. It started with Rhaegar giving a Northern girl a flower and ended with a bloodline massacred and a kingdom deposed. If anyone along the way had steeled themselves and not given into their baser instincts, a lot less people would have died. I think it pretty much goes to show that power is best kept divided. When a handful of people have all the power in the world, what should be a stupid family feud turns into a whole realm on fire.

[@joelsmith3009]

The "hero" of the story doesn't have to be an actual hero. That's not how modern fiction works, so I don't think George was expounding that Rhaegar was either a good or bad person

[@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u]

He's clearly supposed to be a tragic character who made a huge mistake and paid for it. GRRM loves his tragic love stories. Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna, lost his mind and triggered a chain of events that destroyed his house. Mind you, GRRM said the Targaryens were already weak, there were only 4 Targayens left, they had no dragons anymore, the king was insane, it was only a matter of time before something huge happened. The plan was for Rhaegar to depose Aerys, he was actually working towards that, until he became infatuated with Lyanna.

[@BucketThinkTank14657Nerd]

The Baratheon loyalist in me is here for the Taragaryen slander.

[@dragospinx1440]

Stannis the Mannis of Baratheon approves.

[@ivkica1001]

Yet the Baratheons are Targaryen bastards who got land just cause Aegon liked his half brother Orys and let him lead the siege of Storms End, which resulted in a highborn Durrandon bride Argella. Kinda funny.

[@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u]

@@ivkica1001 also Storm's End was built by the Starks. LOL House Baratheon is lame. If you wanna worship badassery, be a House Martell loyalist.

[@terellchapman8737]

@@ivkica1001funny, I hate the Targs but love the Baratheon’s. But I think it makes since the Baratheon’s aren’t nearly as inbred as the Targaryens, nor do they see them selves as high Valyrian

[@revanruler6404]

It's not slander if it's true

[@mappingshaman5280]

What people seem to be missing is that from the most charitable interpretation of rhaegar's actions, he's still a cheater whom abandoned the war he started to leave his wife for a teenage girl he groomed (and not to mention before all that the wonderful good guy rhaegar knighted the also wonderful good guy known as gregor clegane).

[@Jfieldsend94]

My main reason for hating the R+L=J theory is just because of how much of a dick Rhaegar is and how the fanbase makes out like he is such a great guy and it was a tragic love story between him and Lyanna. She was a child who at the best was coerced by someone who was like twice her age, already with a wife and kids and had a significantly higher position of power, and at worst was actually kidnapped and raped. Which people for some reason have completely disregarded as a possibility just because Robert Baratheon apparently states it as fact. As if that would make it automatically false.

[@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u]

GRRM already stated Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna. And she was 15 and this is not 21st century america.

[@jaded9234]

@@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u Exactly right.

[@Jonathan-ug9yu]

I don't think Jon is a eugenics baby. A desperate prophecy baby, maybe. If Eugenics were a concern, Rhaegar would have run away with a silver haired Dayne girl, or a Hightower, or a someone off of Dragonstone.

[@Jonathan-ug9yu]

@@joshowoh9072 still, a (forgive the expression) "mongrel" baby is still the opposite to the typically eugenicist purity the Targaryens went for by sleeping with each other. The whole back Nazis eugenics thing was about purity of race too

[@KateeAngel]

Tergaryens were already eugenics babies

[@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u]

GRRM already stated that Rhaegar went after Lyanna because he loved her. It was not because he wanted some prophecy child.

[@jewsco]

But he is because he realized he needed the first man blood of the starks

[@jewsco]

@@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u he might of free to love her but he first noticed her because she was a warrior with first man blood

[@Jonjzi]

If you consider the fact that prophetic dreams are the only reason the Targaryens were the sole survivors of the doom of Valerya, it doesn't seem that crazy for someone like Rhaegar to take the threat of mankind's destruction extremely seriously, especially when trying to cope with the survivor's guilt of Summer Hall. If he believed everything he did was the only way to defend against the threat of the Others, I think his actions are more understandable. And when it comes to the significance of lineage, it doesn't necessarily have to be seen as a eugenics thing because it's not about the superiority of human genetics. If Targaryens literally have dragon blood, and Starks literally have white walker blood, Jon could represent the peaceful resolution to opposing magical forces at war.

[@Shenanakins]

considering that the Targaryens left Valyria 12 whole years before the doom i wouldn't really call them "survivors". by that logic House Celtigar and House Velaryon also "survived the doom". its like saying "i survived 9/11" if you were in the towers on September 1st. they didnt survive the doom they just emigrated before it happened.

[@Jonjzi]

@@Shenanakins my father worked in Manhattan and was commuting to his job the morning of 9/11. The hours that went by where we had no contact with him were terrifying. He wasn't at ground zero, but on that day, no one knew what was going on, where it was safe, or what else was going to happen. Only in retrospect does anyone realize they were safe. My point being, you don't have to have been working in the twin towers to feel like you narrowly escaped losing someone you love. Maybe it doesn't change the motivation of fictional characters, but merely being within the proximity of a catastrophic event has left a lasting impression on me.

[@Shenanakins]

@@Jonjzi the morning of 9/11 makes complete sense. he lucked out by a hair. Im happy you didnt lose your father. that mustve been terrifying. however the targaryens were 12 years ahead of the doom and . thats not the same thing as "the morning of". certainly not enough to declare that they were chosen for some prophesy

[@joeysalazar98]

The targs were not the sole survivors. The Velaryons and the Celtigars also escaped though both of the former looked down on the Celtigars considering they were descended from slaves.

[@sakurayuki8391]

Rhaegar supported his crazy father in the war and left his wife and children with him even though he knew he didn't like them. He also left 16 years old Jamie to protect both Elia and Aerys. Also if he really loved Lyanna he wouldn't impregnate her at 15, Ned called her a woman-child . He is not a good guy and shout out to GRRM who convinced so many people that he is.

[@DFWNites]

Preston is very, very mistaken when he compares the Targaryens to the Nazis, and his error is extra weird, because he's made agonizingly long videos about a related topic: The Targaryens are just a noble ruling family like The Habsurgs who ruled over all the kingdoms of Europe for several centuries. Yes, they kept their blood pure, but just to keep inheritance and succession clearer, and to keep making dragonriders, but they absolutely don't think there aren't drawbacks, like how "with every Targaryen birth, the Gods flip a coin," because half of them are crazy, and half their kids are deformed monsters.

[@lathanandrews417]

And Preston even put out a very detailed video series explaining Valyrian genetics!! He was clearly supporting the Targaryens’ reasoning for mostly marrying within the family and only a couple particular other families.

[@armandopena4929]

@@lathanandrews417 He was analyzing their reasoning, not suporting it. He can say why the Targaryens practiced eugenics, but he still doesn't agree with it

[@DFWNites]

​@@armandopena4929 Except that Preston must have hit his head on a castle, given how much he's forgotten about actual eugenics and the actual Nazi Party. When people gravely say "The Nazis practiced eugenics to keep their bloodlines pure," they are referring to society-wide mandates to identify, isolate, sterilize, or kill *anyone* in Germany or under German occupation with heritable genetic conditions like epilepsy or mental retardation, or of Gypsy, Slavic, or Jewish descent. The goal was to optimize all of Germany and German life by filtering out the weak or impulsive or ugly or unfit so that Future Germany would have happier, healthier citizens later.

[@DFWNites]

But when people say "The cattle rancher practiced eugenics to keep his bloodlines pure," they are referring to checking the DNAs of his top prize bull and cows, to make sure they don't share too many of the same Power Ancestor, which can yield defective, inbred animals that produce bad steaks or weak knees and hooves and such. And the same logic would hold for a family of airline pilots who might *prefer* to test each possible romantic partner (and maybe evern *their* parents and grandparents, just ot make As Sure As Possible that all of them can become pilots, *if* they to carry on that tradition.

[@nedsnark6479]

Preston likes the buzz of using Nazi and eugenics.

[@Rage_WinterchiIl]

I mean it might not even be so much they fabricated the story that Lyanna was kidnapped, but they might just immediately assume that she was kidnapped rather than willingly left with Rhaegar. It's not like they announced to the world they loved each other, they just fucking bounced. Sure Rhaegar showed his interest in Lyanna, but it didn't exactly seem mutual to the general public. I think it's completely logical to say that they just assumed she was kidnapped.

[@ivanbluecool]

Mad king didn't like the dornish as history shows they try to take power and change the system to have better rights than the other kingdoms. He called the children of ellia as "smelling dornish" basically if in real life you said someone "looked like X" basically. Rhegar honestly did ruin everything from the north and stormlands being allies and even dorne if the mad king didn't force ellia to be a prisoner to get dorne to thier side. And that's not talking about tywin already ready to kill the king as well. This one action would have lead to 4 parts of the kindom to go against the targareans so rhegar and his father messed up on many sides. Also no divorce isn't a thing like the show. If you displaced your wife you are doing so to the children and family as well so ellias family would have gone crazy if mad king didn't already have her as a pawn.

[@aoifeandginny5569]

Then when his wife gives birth he says there must be another and never came over to see his baby or wife. I'd say he would've gone cold on Leanna too.

[@TheDelinear]

Kind of makes me think of the scene from Watchmen where Doctor Manhattan makes a copy of himself to be with Silk Spectre while he's busy working on science problems. It's not that he doesn't care for her or has no feelings for her (the reverse in fact, he thought he was protecting her feelings by being with her), it's that what he has become is so detached from humanity (in Manhattan's case a literal god, in Rhaegar's, burdened with the expectations of prophesy) that he just doesn't realise any more.

[@matthiaselser3117]

nazi is thr wrong word the word nazi stemms from nationalist which doesnt work in this context

[@d4n4nable]

The Nazi analogy kinda falls apart when they actually are the superior master race in that universe...

[@jeffgustafson4552]

Ha! Facts don’t care about your feelings 😂

[@oatman15]

they got toppled by a fat drunk guy and a dude from winter land, which is allegory for america and russia stuffing nazi germany in both holes.

[@wisdommanari6701]

They're human though. They're part of the the same race as everyone else.

[@helpconflict9851]

Also, his plan is to inter-marry, not keep the blood pure.

[@davidbodor1762]

They're not really superior, I mean sure you can ride dragons but there are no dragons. Plus, even when there are, superior weaponry does not make for a superior people. The conquistadors had superior weapons to the natives, I wouldn't really call them superior. They were genocidal maniacs looking to enrich themselves.

[@Ryanfinder226]

"Also Preston trashes Howland Reed for a minute." well I was already gonna watch the video but hell if that ain't a hook.

[@jimboslice6367]

This guy is supposed to be an ASOIAF expert? Targaryens keep blood lines purrs to control dragons

[@fabe433]

He is the only reason any of this crap is happening so yes. And also bran stark is villian too

[@aoifeandginny5569]

Well Bran is Bloodraven now, when is doubt, blame Bloodraven.

[@TheDelinear]

Bran Stark is a ten year old.

[@aoifeandginny5569]

@@TheDelinear I think Bloodraven took over Brans's body.

[@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u]

So you read the books and really, the idea you had of Targaryens is that they're nazis? I don't know if you were trying to be clever or stir debate, but if not, holy crap how narrowed is your view of ASoIaF.

[@careybrooks3072]

Rhaegar is one of the many figures fitting the Azor Ahai archetype. The point of the archetype is some people interpret them as a hero, some a villian, but they are always actually both depending on their character's contexts.

[@Meanandgreenbean]

Here we go overusing the term nazi to the point where it’s no longer recognizable

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

*insert anime meme of guy presenting a butterfly*

[@Titanic_401]

Calling Targaryens Nazis is a bit stupid. Their interbreeding is more like the ancient Egyptian pharaohs.

[@jonathangendler3871]

Nazi comparisons are also massively overused, "racists" or "eugenecists" would have worked.

[@MrIrishfireball]

Really hate the comparison of the targs to nazis and calling azor ahai a master race baby. For one, the targs haven’t kept their bloodline pure at all. Azor ahai isn’t a Valyrian prophet

[@jewsco]

They have kept it as pure as possible. Why do you think they had all those incest marriages ?

[@yetipotato8567]

True, too many things are called nazis. There sure is element of eugenics in both. Targs had a more than flimsy logic in believing their bloodline was special, for their dragon riding /hatching magic they feared to lose. Also its a powerplay to try not to give any other house more power than it is necessary in fear that they inherit the iron throne. Targ have many reasons for their focus on bloodlines and they have changed through the years. Dagons, magic, trying to be the last Valyrians and that culture, dreams, hubris, tradition and habit, trying to cling to power....

[@jewsco]

@@yetipotato8567 thru literally are nazis trying to keep their bloodline pure as they see themselves as the master race above all and have no problem treating other races and families poorly

[@lurksnitchtongue8986]

@@jewsco Bro you're describing 99% of elite families/peoples through history. The Japanese literally believed their Emperor's bloodline was descended from a God. Not every single people who saw themselves as special and didn't want to intermingle were Nazis. In fact, only people who are National Socialists are Nazis, because that's literally what that term means. I'm really sick of stupid people pointing at everything that isn't post-modern society and saying its basically the same as Nazis.

[@jewsco]

@@lurksnitchtongue8986 I am sick of idiots like yourself thinking only Nazis have that mind set . Literally trying to make an master race that is better than everyone else is a Nazi or to put it more bluntly wrong if you can’t figure that out. Whether they call themselves Nazis or not

[@TürkTeksaslı]

Rape is a Crime. So Yes Rhaegar was a Villian

[@drewsollars2239]

Was Rhaegar genocidal? In the Targaryens defense, there seemed to be demonstrable evidence that their pure bloodlines were necessary to control the dragons which were the source of their power.

[@Evilanious]

Howland was ordered by Robb to hold the Neck though, back in Game of Thrones (the first book, not the show), and to bleed the Lannisters as they pass through and when Theon enters moat cailin he is nearly shot with poison arrows from one of the Crannogmen. Howland did as he was commanded. His Crannogmen seem to be small guys specialized in guerilla warfare, not straight up fights. I don't see why we should hate on him. As for Rhaegar, clearly JonCon and Cercei have weird idealized views of him, but even his enemies, excepting Robert hold him in fairly high regard. Probably because he wasn't that bad. He was weirdly obsessive and anti-social, but also very competent and charismatic. His obsession with prophecy and his unwillingness to explain what he was doing with Lyanna were unhelpful but they didn't start the rebellion. Jon Arryn started the rebellion after being ordered by Aerys to execute Ned and Robert, all this with Rhaegar absent. This situation came up because of Rhaegar disappearing with Lyanna but there was no reason for that to lead to war if Aerys (or Brandon) had responded vaguely sensibly to the situation. Combating the idealized views some have of Rhaegar is all well and good but making him out to be a horrible villain is honestly just silly between all the actual villains in asoiaf. He's a weird princeling who made a serious mistake that got completely out of hand because of a pre-existing political context that was hard to control or foresee. Lastly, the love between Rhaegar and Lyanna may have been unwise but that is no reason not to make romantic fan-art. Romanticism does not require being well adjusted to the social context. In fact, politically inconvenient love is classic Romeo and Juliet stuff.

[@Rafael_Mena_Ill]

This whole tangent is nonsensical, Rhaegar started the war because he dissapeared with Lyanna without any explanation. It's all on him. The realm shouldn't have to suffer because this wierd anti-social dweeb is obsessed with a profesy.

[@Rafael_Mena_Ill]

" because of a pre-existing political context that was hard to control or foresee." Bullshit, Lyanna wasn't his to escape with, end of story. He manufactured the conditions of the war.

[@R0CKDRIG0]

@@Rafael_Mena_Ill No, that was part of it, but the Mad King killing members of house Stark and Arryn and especially calling for the heads of Ned and Robert was what started the war.

[@yetipotato8567]

Yes it could be seen as string of unfortunate events. Mad king being mad and paranoid, Rheagal running away with Lyanna, Brandon hearing about that and coming to concousion that she was abducted, going to KL and His father going to KL, Mad King killing them and ordering Jon Arryn to hand over his wards and so on... What happened between Lyanna and Rheagal, how did Brandon get the idea she was abducted, Also did Brandon come to KL with rage banging on the door of Red keep which upsetted the paranoid king or did he have legitimate arguments. Same with Lord Ricard. Some little changes and story would be totally different and many of those things could have been done by Rheagal.

[@Evarakeus]

@@Rafael_Mena_Ill "Wasn't his to escape with" ASOIF fans suddenly super big on medieval conceptions of gendered hierarchy. If Lyanna wanted to elope with Rhaegar, who's to stop them? You can't consider Rhaegar a "nazi" for his quite milquetoast view on noble lineages, a tool of political expediency, then turn around and assert Robert's right to an arranged marriage, also a tool of political expediency. Which is it?

[@thekittenthatwantschicken8018]

yes, yes he is a villain. He became so obsessed with prophecy he drank his own kool aid thinking he was going to help sire the savior of humanity. Lyanna was a means to an end maybe there were some feelings their but i bet that ended when she heard news of her father and brothers death and he confined her to the tower of joy. She was a baby factory first and foremost...but she is also at fault as well.

[@KateeAngel]

He is just like Henry 8, who destroyed and risked so much just because he wanted to marry another chick and have a son. But in Rhaegar's case the consequences were much worse

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

The Targs don't keep their bloodline "pure" because of some vanity/nationalism/racism whatever issue, they ARE the blood of the dragon, they are the only one that could connect with their dragons without spells and horns. We see evidence of this in their stillborns actually having wings and scales Aegon let the local customs be saved for the most, cancelled those that were savage, as long as they keep peace, and looked to unite the always warring kingdoms, and accepted their religion - that is the complete opposite of a nazi 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@thekittenthatwantschicken8018]

thats targs propaganda fire and blood hints that non targs can ride dragons.

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

@@thekittenthatwantschicken8018 why would there be a need for hitn? we know that there were non-targ families dragonriders in valyria. they just had to use horns and spells etc.

[@thekittenthatwantschicken8018]

@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 nettles is likely not a targ and she had no problem riding a dragon no horns or spells needed

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

@@thekittenthatwantschicken8018 we dont know she doesn't have dragon blood, so IDK where you got "likely" from

[@petrmaly9087]

I think you are very misinformed about who the nazis were. I know it is used as a buzzword in USA today, but real nazis were far away ideologically and by actions they took from anything Targaryens represent. Targaryens were modelled after Egyptian ruling dynasties.

[@lurksnitchtongue8986]

Thank you. Its so annoying how modern westerners have this ultra reductionist view of history and culture that peoples who didn't value individualism and post-modern morality are all the same as Nazis. Nazis were a specific party with a super specific value set, not every ruling family that tried to keep their genes 'pure' qualify. Its especially stupid when you consider that eugenics was a field of American medicine until the Nazi party's obsession with it turned it into a taboo field, yet most people call anyone who had any form of eugenics Nazis. Well then if that's the case, the people who literally beat the Nazis were also Nazis. In fact, every culture before the 60s counterculture movement could probably be classified as Nazis using this sorta reductionist criteria.

[@louiscassis3426]

I think the tale of Rheagar is a cautionary tale about prophecy. Rheagar could have been a great ruler then wait for fate to come to him rather than trying to force the situation.

[@lathanandrews417]

Preston: Puts out an awesomely detailed video series fully explaining Valyrian genetics and how only they (+Hightowers/Daynes) can birth/ride dragons. Also Preston: “The Targaryens are Nazis!” 🧐🤔

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

“You’re sending mixed messages here Preston.”

[@allarfckingdeem]

The real question you should be asking is: am I the real hero of asoiaf?

[@ThatDangerousWolf]

You should be a motivational speaker - this made my day.

[@jscott7777]

Where are you Allar Deem??? Where the fuck did you go????

[@allarfckingdeem]

@@jscott7777 Obviously the place where whores go.

[@e22ddie46]

PJ, the reference to Casablanca is Wonderful and ironically, you missed why. It wasn't just that they were in love but also that her husband was critical to the war effort in Europe. And that their wants aren't as big as the needs of all mankind

[@Denise-zv4qm]

The fact that too many people don’t realize the Targaryens are the villains baffles me. How do you look at a dynasty like them and think, yaaaas let’s restore them to the throne! If you read Fire and Blood, they can’t get their crap together. They couldn’t even figure out succession. Like that’s your ONE job, stability, who is gonna rule next without having to resort to bloodshed. And they keep sucking at it because they’re too dumb to stop interbreeding.

[@michaelkean5969]

Rhaegar Targaryen is more inconstantly written than the Emperor of Mankind in warhammer 40K THINK ON THAT!. they are also very similar in the sense that both are heavily influential on the entire narrative and setting yet are not actually present in the current events and also both are hero worshiped to such an insane degree that no one actually remembers how bad of a guy they actually were.

[@jamesroe8934]

Rhaeger tricked through prophecy and dreams, like so many Targaryens.

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

But what happens when many said prophecies were true

[@jamesroe8934]

@@durrangodsgrief6503 which one? All or nearly all the prophecies are vauge enough to interpret multiple ways...they are used for manipulation

[@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u]

the dreams and prophecy saved the Targaryens from the Doom of Valyria, you wonder why they're into it? And Rhaegar didn't do what he did because of prophecy, GRRM said so himself that Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna. Also, that prophecy IS most likely real since there will be a warrior that will defeat the Long Night and it was said he/she was going to be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line. Jon dreamed he was on top of the Wall with an armor of ice and a flaming sword (Lightbringer) battling the dead.

[@DarkKing009]

rhaegar targaryen “Wait abducting a teenager has consequences???”

[@billychops1280]

Also I think that the Targaryens constantly marrying each other and members of house Velaryon and baratheon is mostly because they are afraid of losing the dragon binding trait they have that’s in their blood, not because they don’t like the other races like first men, andal and Roynar. I mean if we take a look at their family tree, there have been marriages with every race on westeros(at least the human ones) and some races of Essos

[@rrraynoorrr]

Why would they care about the dragon binding trait when the dragons have been extinct for ages? Also, the targs weren't marrying each other for that. They were doing it because it was the custom for Valyrian nobility to wed within the family.

[@billychops1280]

@@rrraynoorrr they care because as we can see blood magic is unpredictable and brought back dragons, luckily the Targaryens of the current story (but mostly Danny) is still able to ride them, also it’s Valyrian culture and the dragons had only been extinct for 120 years, and only in westeros, who knows if there’s dragons on the shadow lands where they supposedly originated from

[@kingad8869]

​@@rrraynoorrrAfter the dragons die, the Targs really toned it down on all the hardcore incest. Between the dance of the dragons and Jaehaeres ii, the only Trag king married his sister was Aegon IV and that's cuz his father grew up in Lys. Targs didn't start back doing incest until Jaehaeres ii listen to Magi the Frog's prophecy and eloped with his sister, then married his two kids (Areys ii and Rhaella) to each other. Turns out, most Targaryens don't want to marry their siblings.

[@blckbirdoftrees6218]

The definition of Nazism is not believing that one generically distinct group is more important than others. Fascism in general is a somewhat complex political philosophy it can't be reduced to being racist.

[@696190]

This video made me realise something: in the Witcher books (spoilers, btw) Ciri is a prophecy baby destined to fix the world, however: a) the story establishes her birth happened completely by chance, aka the prophecy is void from the start, b) her assuming the role is never the goal of the story, it is much more about her general emancipation and making somewhat sure she leads a happy, fulfilled life. (End of spoilers) Also, what if the hero who dies before the story begins isn't Rhaegar, but Ned? He is the most traditionally heroic character in the story, and Martin referrred to him as the main character while the first season was being promoted. Would make sense, I think

[@Praefectus95]

Targaryen goal is to keep bloodlines pure.... by mixing bloodlines with a Stark?

[@davidbodor1762]

By marrying their own family members and other people with valyrian features and bloodlines... And mixing bloodlines with Starks is specifically to birth someone with the genes to ride or birth dragons through the Stark's skinchanger genes...after which if they're successful what would happen exactly? Do you think they'd give up their power or restart the whole protecting the bloodline schtick.

[@Praefectus95]

@@davidbodor1762 you lost me bud. I was just confused by Preston since the "Targaryen Nazi" mindset required racial purity through incest but Rhaegar's alleged PWWP plan required racial "impurity" as it were with the Stark girl. (Rhaegar still an uncontested douche tho IMO)

[@legitoutfit]

@@Praefectus95 racial purity selecting for 'races' (i guess not the right term then in this context) with skinchanger genes i.e. Lyanna Stark, Betha and Melissa Blackwood (latter is Bloodraven's mom) in absence of suitable Targ or Velaryon suitors

[@davidbodor1762]

@@Praefectus95 Rhaegar's plan is about creating a new* purest bloodline. Lyanna was likely selected because of her own bloodline that contains skinchangers. After his prophecy baby was born he'd likely do the same thing Valyrians did for hundreds of years. Marry them to anyone with similar genes to preserve their power. It's like creating a new master race from an old fallen master race to put it in simple terms.

[@mtl9985]

@@davidbodor1762 is that implied anywhere in the books? Where? I really dont know.

[@stevenbailey8167]

People hating Preston cause they say they do incest cause of the dragon powers but the dragons died out like a 100 years before the show lol they might of done incest for that reason back then but is their a excuse for it after the dragons became to small to ride. Rhygar definitely had that master race mindset lol

[@kingad8869]

Calling Rhaegar a master race purist is crazy. He literally only has kids with two non Valyrian women, that's the exact opposite of blood purity. And most Targaryens stopped practicing incest after the dance and only started back after the prophecy of the ghost of high heart. Beside Jaehaeres ii, no Targaryen ever wanted to be married to their sibling. Aegon iv hates his wife, Aerys ii hates his wife, Baelor the Blesses didn't even consummate his marriage to his sister. They're not blood purist, they're religious nuts.

[@CarsonRBrown]

I disagree with these guys and how they keep saying nazi instead of coming up with better reasons to why he’s bad

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

Better reasons: - he was an abomination born of multiple generations of inbreeding - he abandoned his wife and children to a gruesome death - he spurned and insulted THREE Great Houses of the Kingdoms (Stark, Martell, Baratheon) - left the 3 best Kingsguard with his side chick and his bastard love child (annulment doesn't work in that universe)

[@S14N9LS]

Jon Arryn, the real hero who died before the story began. He tolerated Lysa. Littlefinger shoved her out the moon door almost immediately and he's one of the most patient/methodical characters in the story.

[@sayyidf.b.6378]

Rhaegar was indeed a much more complicated figure than the fan base typically portrayed him. However, I disagree with the idea that he was abusive towards his wife and that he was a Nazi. (1) His firstborn son could've still been his heir. (2) Elia is Dornish and they are not strictly monogamous nor were the Targaryen. (3) The Targaryen where fascist but Rhaegar was not, Jon is technically biracial. I think history would view the Nazis far more kindly if they viewed interracial couples as the key to saving the world. I also believe that part of Rhaegar’s rationale for him being the chosen was that he’s technically biracial, he just looks phenotypically Targaryen. (The Targaryen family is a blend of all the magical blood lines across the world.) I would say that Rhaegar’s hamartia was that he was always too self assured. When he spoke to Jaime before riding off to war, he spoke in the infinitive. He even believed that he was the chosen before his children, and he really only believed that his children would be the chosen ones because they were his kids.

[@ChocolateRuko]

theres literally no dornish person who is married AND has a paramour/mistress so your argument makes no sense

[@sebastijan5894]

Preston bringing in his extremely left views into a fictional universe once again xD

[@deadshot1995]

The beliefs of the Targaryens/Valyrians are objectively racially supremacist though. Do you need to be extremely left to condemn a bunch of incestuous colonizers?

[@wisdommanari6701]

But the doctrine of exceptionalism was a thing

[@umbraunuivis]

@@deadshot1995 By these reasons and arguments and own words Preston is "a piece of shit that defends a piece of shit system" as he works for the US goverment the industrial-military complex that goes to wars for maintaining their monopoly and status quo. But he believes he works for good and freedom and the world, just like Rhaegar!

[@lathanandrews417]

Preston now: “The Targaryens are Nazis!” Preston then: Puts out a detailed video series explaining Valyrian genetics and how only they (+Hightowers/Daynes) can birth/ride dragons. 🧐🤔

[@handzar6402]

He sounds like an clown, to be honest. ''Targarayens are Nazis'' is the most braindead reading of a fictional royal family I have probably ever come across. I mean, his videos were always terrible but this is actually funny.

[@TheRealProudNoob]

Preston, please. Rhaegar isn't a nazi nor a racist. He's just a race realist.

[@jayse324]

I know this comment is a year late. But to also play devils advocate: isn't it extremely Lyanna to run away with the Prince? From what we know about her based on The Knight of The Laughing Tree it seems in character for her to be defiant in her betrothal to Robert and she even says as much to Ned. Maybe she truly did just run away with Rheagar.

[@AmberGraves80]

See, I have a hard time calling Rheagar a villain, but only because he's doing stuff that everyone else is doing in this story. There's a whole lot of people who do things because they think they know what is best. Melisandre helps Stannis by burning children and slaughtering armies of people because it's what she thinks her God wants, and that's what's best for the world. Danny is destroying cities and cultures, turning over economies, and killing tons of people because she thinks that she's ending slavery and that's for the best. Rob gathered up an army and unnecessarily made an even bigger war because he wanted revenge, killing God knows how many small folk as well as soldiers and contributing to the starvation of these people. Drogo married Danny to fulfill prophecy to make a super baby that was supposed to conquer the world, and to him thst was for the best. I could list these scenarios forever. The point is that Rheagar was just doing what every other self righteous douchebag in this book does, so it really makes him typical rather than villainous.

[@TheDelinear]

Counterpoint: it's perfectly fine to say that ALL of those people have done villainous things and should be called out. Although at least in the case of Dany, and to some extent Robb, they're barely more than children suddenly expected to make decisions which would challenge seasoned leaders, so I'd lay a large portion of the blame on those who should be guiding and advising them.

[@nitishpandey5578]

Howland Reed is opposite of Jon Snow. He knows everything!!!

[@wolfh9831]

“They didn’t even hold the neck” 🤣

[@AbiShoukathAliA]

When Preston tells Rhaegar is a piece of shit no one bats an eye, but When I say Rhaegar is a piece of shit, well then everybody loses their mind.

[@G_Kchrst]

This is a Preston Jscons exaggeration mement. I dont think there is a heroic good guy in Martins world but Rhaegar is written by Martin in a positive light. He is supposed to be the hero.

[@journeyman4814]

''the hero died before the story begin'' = there are no heros.

[@carolxs]

I really don't get how having a baby with Lyanna aligned with the eugenics thing. I'll make my conclusions about Rhaegar when/if George ever finishes the story

[@theboy1625]

Nah Rhaegars a dough bag who got his innocent children and wife brutally murdered. Glad Robert put his pretty boy ass in the ground. That’s all you need for a conclusion

[@kingcobra2858]

I find it weird that no one points out that Rhaegar is shaddy af....until now. Lol

[@anabel76]

Baelor the Blessed was a nazi? Aegon the 5th was a nazi? Dany is a nazi? How about you pick up a History book before you start describing someone as nazi?! Also, the exceptionalism rule was created so that the religion from Westeros would leave the Targaryens alone to marry the way they wanted Since it was the only way they could make sure to go on birthing dragons. And it is not a coincidence that Dany could birth a dragon once the family line went back to intermarriage. Martins is also a science fiction writer as the Preston from the past surely remembers. Has he been taken by the Time Keepers from Loki and replaced by a variant who does not remember the books?

[@lathanandrews417]

Preston: “The Targaryens are Nazis!” Also Preston: Puts out a detailed video series explaining Valyrian genetics and how only they (+Hightowers/Daynes) can birth/ride dragons. 🧐🤔

[@fouratferchichi4116]

Are we sure it was Rhaegar who participated to the tourney at Harrenhal ? Ned remembers him wearing red gems (maybe glamours) and desribes his performance as "mystical" I recall

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

He didn’t, just like the allusion it’s (the tournament) based on, Robin Hood, the queen (Rhaella) gets Robin Hood (Mance aka Aegon Targaryen the didn’t-die-as-a-baby-but -a-bastard-sent-to-the-wall) to wear his armor. Mance aka Aegon ends up fighting Lyanna as the Mystery knight and brings her flowers like Robin with Marion.

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

Oh right, the red gems are clues that Lyanna, at the battle of the Trident, was wearing Rhaegar’s armor. She got “Azor Ahai’d” in the chest by Robert, who didn’t “remember her face”.(hinted by Robert in the crypts)

[@FSUfan1991]

Absolutely and very selfish. He got everyone killed including his children

[@FieryReborn]

Robert baratheon was worse

[@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u]

By your logic Robert was the same or even worse, because of his incompetence as king basically led to his best friend being killed, house Stark nearly annihilated, war of the 5 kings etc etc. Rhaegar was not omniscient. What he and Lyanna did was a scandal at most. He couldnt't know Brandon was going to the freaking mad king and scream treason, that Aerys was gonna kill both Brandon and Rickard, that Tywin was going to betray Aerys and kill his children etc.

[@FSUfan1991]

@@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u a scandal at best? Imagine someone cones and kidnaps your sister in the middle of the night you don't know what intentions they have. We not even gonna talk about the fact that she was promised to another strong house and that he was already married. If someone came and took your 13 or 14 year old sister in the middle of the night what would you do? I think that he is lucky that the war didn't start earlier. If I was Brandon I would've never came to the south alone I would've took the whole North with me to get my little sister. Rhagar chose love over duty if he would've never did what he did Robert would've never sat on the Iron Throne and the kingdoms might not be as fucked up as it is now. Ned got himself killed, if he would've told Robert about Joffery before he died none of this would've happened and Stannis would've been King

[@卩丨尺卂卂-d8u]

​@@FSUfan1991 It was a scandal. People were fighting the war because of the murder of the warden of the north and his heir, not because Lyanna was kidnapped. The war wasn't about Lyanna. Robert's personal reasons for the war was because of Lyanna though, and only because his pride was hurt. He was wearing out brothels while claiming Lyanna was being raped, that's how concerned he was. “Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face." ~ Jaime Lannister And about Brandon, he was a hot headed idiot who got his father killed. Jon Arryn himself criticized what Brandon did and called him "a gallant fool".

[@Kai555100]

Short answer: Yes Long answer: Yes but it is complicated

[@billychops1280]

In defence of Rhaegar, he didn’t want to marry her in the first place, and they did get along but there was never any love there, it’s basically the tale of King Arthur and his wife except the roles are reversed, and yes it’s weird that he sought a 15 to 16 year old girl but in those times 16 was marrying age

[@ChocolateRuko]

if he hates her so much then he shouldve told the dornish not to fight for him at the trident. u dont get to cry about an arranged marriage yet still benefit from it

[@billychops1280]

@@ChocolateRuko he literally didn’t, Aerys forced them by essentially making Eliah a hostage

[@billychops1280]

@@ChocolateRuko he didn’t benefit from it whatsoever

[@ChocolateRuko]

@@billychops1280 yes there were 10k dornish swords for him at the trident. if he hated that arranged marriage so much he shouldve just fled to essos

[@billychops1280]

@@ChocolateRuko no, the dornish men where there already abs if Rhaegar didn’t show up Barristan Selma would have led them anyway, the Dirmish men were also obligated to help because of Eliah’s marriage, and it was only because of the bad king using her as a hostage that the dornish ever even sent an army

[@jackbrown8487]

Rhaegar "age ain't nothing but a number" Targaryen

[@DarkKing009]

Rhaegar on his way to commit yet another unspeakably dumb act for the sake of some vague-ass prophecy.

[@XDivineSouljax]

I can tell Preston is not a fan of history nor has he thought about this very hard. He keeps using Lyanna being 15 or 16 as some kind of damning indictment against him when it was extremely common in earlier periods of human history for women to marry and have children at that age. Is Ned a terrible pedophile sex trafficker for marrying his sister to Robert and is Robert a pedophile for wanting to marry her in the first place lmao? Just sheer idiocy from Preston here

[@fazediamond5671]

It’s not tho because in story ppl still say that is young Ned literally said Sansa at 11 was too young to be married

[@XDivineSouljax]

@@fazediamond5671 11 is not 15 or 16 and the point I’m making is no one calls Robert a pedophile for being in love with literally the same woman we are talking about nor Ned who literally agreed to marry Lyanna and Sansa who are both young.

[@fazediamond5671]

@@XDivineSouljax Ned has no power to marry lyanna to Robert n lyanna n Sansa were betrothals not marriages

[@XDivineSouljax]

@@fazediamond5671 I don’t think you understand what a betrothal is. A betrothal is a promise of marriage between two ppl (generally under the age of 18) Ned quite literally promised his 15 or 16 year old sisters hand in marriage and then promised his 11 year old daughters hand in marriage to Joffrey. And in the Middle Ages people married at much younger ages so betrothals would only last roughly until the man and woman reached their late teens and then they would marry. If the war had ended sooner and Lyanna hadn’t died then Robert would have married her as soon as the war ended no matter her age he quite literally states he was in love with her multiple times lmao

[@fazediamond5671]

@@XDivineSouljax that was Ned DAD not Ned wtf are you talking about And Joffrey n Sansa we’re gonna get married when they got older

[@w_5492]

In the context of the television series with all the hindsight we have now? Yes, absolutely he was 100% the villain, if not just *a* villain.

[@WeaponOfMyDestructio]

Or just very inept as a leader like a reverse Joffrey.

[@SkoomaCat]

@@WeaponOfMyDestructio lol reverse Joffrey!

[@w_5492]

@@WeaponOfMyDestructio Or just a villain.

[@handzar6402]

@@w_5492 or not

[@KomodoDojo]

“Nazis with Dragons” hahaha love it Preston

[@QueenDaenerysTargaryen]

Lies of my enemies 🔥🐉

[@geefaith21]

My biggest beef from the show is why name 2 of your kids the same name

[@alanpennie8013]

It's hard to assess Targaryens, and Rhaegar especially, because we don't know the end of the story Chou En - lai applies. Also though we need balance fire is good and ice is bad just as in Star Wars Light is good and Dark is bad.

[@bassmike7021]

Up to the end of book 5, i really respect the Martells so far. But if they indeed will back up the Targaryens they are really pathetic. After all the things Rhaegar did to them and the disrespect he showed to Elia, if they are still supporters of them, well screw them, they are pathetic. Show some ego.

[@deadshot1995]

Ironically their ancestors were the Tararyen's greatest enemies and their distant ancestors from Essos, the Rhoynar, were the greatest enemies of Valyria.

[@bassmike7021]

@@deadshot1995 Yeah they would be really pathetic if they will try to make a Targaryen win the throne again. Except if they will try to betray them somehow and take the throne for themselves out of revenge.

[@rodazugaming4157]

They had to support the Targaryens because if they didn't Elia and her children could of been tortured or killed by the mad king

[@bassmike7021]

@@rodazugaming4157 I am talking about them supporting the Targaryens now, where the books are, not back then. They seem to be trying to form an alliance with Daenerys.

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

@@bassmike7021 she has dragons a possible army and theys hate the Lannisters more

[@proudsaiyanprince2651]

There’s something about Preston that’s intensely unlikable. I can’t quite figure it out, but he gives me the vibes of that one kid in school everyone actively avoided

[@donjuanmckenzie4897]

He's Jewish

[@justinhale5142]

If normal people could ride dragon they would try to keep their blood lines pure too so I think that is a shitty way to look at it and nazi's is a bad comparison

[@Halbared]

No one thinks they’re the baddies. ‘Are we the baddies?’😆

[@felixlagers]

Calling the Targaryans Nazis is a bit too extreme. The Nazis mass murdered their own population while constructing a terrible regime of fear. The Targaryans didnt put anyone in concentration camps and didn't construct a new totalitarian regime. I mean yeah, some kings were pretty bad but overall it was just the feudal system. As far as I know not muh changed for most people after the Targaryans took over. They did have weapons of mass destruction but they were only used in war, which is definitely something else than using them on civilians and/or an ethnic group. Another thing Preston mentioned is their obsession with bloodlines. Yeah, this is pretty arrogant but at the same time they did in fact have special genes allowing them to ride dragons. So please don't throw the word Nazi too loosely around because it softens the term and disrespects the millions of victims of Nazi rule. However, one MAY call the Valyrians Nazis but that depends on one's interpretation of their rule.

[@rycolligan]

Guys. The hero who died before the series began was Lyanna. Not Rhaegar.

[@Halbared]

I think the programme having Rhagear as a goodie shows that they did t understand the books and didn’t know the parentage of Jon Snow and Martin loved that.

[@reesehendricksen269]

So the issue I take with the whole Rhaegar was a Nazi is this, it means Maester Aemon was too. Yeah he was a kind of crappy person, and the actions he took are generally unforgivable, though I don't believe Aemon would help a monster. I'd say we need more information on Rhaegar and everything before we posthumously lynch him.

[@maskabater]

So targs/valaryians they're Nazis with dragons keeping the bloodline pure... But weren't you defending the new sea snake??? Ridiculous.

[@Sodapop1317]

Preston knows literally nothing about Nazis

[@lisatkachenko1784]

I think this is the first time, Preston is being such a categorical, maybe even prejudiced person. Rhaegar is definitely a douche for his attutude towards Elia, his obsession with prophecy, etc., but by no means he should be responcible or accountable for any actions of his Targaryen ancestors nor the Valyrians.

[@wisdommanari6701]

Yes but it's still part of his family Legacy. And by searching for the right bride to make super special babies he still continuing on with their practice. I know in his mind he was trying to save the world but I'm certain every Tyrant and despot felt the same way.

[@carlrood4457]

One of the unanswered questions is how did Brandon (Ned's brother) learn of Lyanna's "kidnapping"? One theory I've heard is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were just planning a rendezvous, not an elopement. It makes sense because the timing is absolutely terrible from any standpoint. Lyanna would have been expected at Brandon's wedding to Cat and running off with her, willingly or not would have been stupid, when waiting a few weeks/months would have made the situation less tense since Brandon and his bride would have been back at Winterfell. The theory is a third party with reason to dislike Brandon told him of the kidnapping, which sent Brandon to King's Landing instead of Riverrrun. Rhaegar and Lyanna were incommunicado and by the time they heard, all hell had broken lose.

[@aber416373]

"The Ents are going to war!" The protagonists are the Weirwoods. Howland Reed and Bran are now wed to the trees, being their mouthpieces, their tools in battle. The hero that died before the story began is nature, as a result of a nuclear holocaust. This is why the Weirwoods are keeping the humans stuck in the dark ages.

[@DrDetfink]

Rhaegar probably the worst at telling his wife, “Um I gotta get a Stark woman pregnant (without telling her dad) in order to save the realm. No offense!” 😆

[@gregaroivanalininovich9019]

Rhaegar should have just poisoned Elia - she was sickly, no one would have betted an eyelid. It would have solved everything. Yes, he would have murdered his wife and children's mother, but saved his kingdom and married his true love - the Prince Charles solution.

[@kingad8869]

His "son" (Jon) killed his "wife" (Dany) so it would be great irony.