Yacht Insurance special: Why is it so expensive.. and do you need it?

[@goodq]

What an absolutely fascinating interview, thank you very much. Fascinating.❤

I wouldn't be sure, you really want that box, since many boats are only sailed a couple of times a year, while liveaboards actually sail their boats... that might come with a lot more experience and a much higher incentive to not crash your boat, but probably doesn't outweigh the much higher chance of something going wrong since you sail so much more.

[@davidjacobs5266]

Great job this is very helpful- we are US flagged and in the Med and it is true it is very much cheaper than when we were in Florida. One factor i hope will change is the competition in the US as that is limited. Our Crossing was a separate cost and with extra restrictions - we considered to not insure. I the end we got lucky and found a great UK broker who covered us.

[@douglasandsharongray5340]

We are a US flagged boat in the Mediterranean and are insured through Velos. Thus far 5 star service. Great video/discussion. Many thanks

[@svfairisle]

Good to know, thanks

[@smulismuli7976]

Very good points that you two raised. Now let's look at the insurance companies balance sheets...

[@jeffh5220]

This was a really informative episode, thank you!

[@trevhedges]

Very topical at the moment! Cheers guys!

[@christophermay1882]

Informative video; good interview, thank you. Similar to you, once I informed my insurance company, who had happily taken my premiums for the past three decades, that I was heading across the Atlantic, the boat became uninsurable! I did suceed in getting Third Party Liability cover, though, and have continued to have this for the past three years. Now back in the UK, I am continuing with the same as the premiums and hoops to jump through for hull cover have become too great due to the vessels age. I remember advice from the late Geoff Pack: the majority of blue water cruisers sail without insurance, do the same, and use the savings from not paying for expensive premiums to buy a new anchor and longer chain!

[@svfairisle]

Yes certainty if you can afford to loose your yacht then ‘self insurance’ for damage and grit your teeth and bear it for loss could be a thing. Just need the third party for marinas

[@christophermay1882]

Yes indeed. Although the yacht has been our home for the past three and half years, we are fortunate to have a home to eventually go back to. One could argue, that underwriting the cost ones self, encourages safer decisions? An old friend, when I was a novice sailor and crewing to gain experience, advised " never sail with a skipper on an over insured vessel!" 😅

[@Charlie-Oooooo]

Maybe the reason live-aboards don't get a straight discount is that there is a large variety of live-aboard situations. Perhaps if you said live-aboard *cruisers* or *blue water cruisers* that would indicate a better level of care of the boat, common to all in that group.

[@simplysailing5321]

I would rather spend 30 seconds putting up an anchor ball, rather than spending days arguing with an insurance company as to whether or not I should have had it up. There are more arguments for putting it up than not putting it up. Especially as Rule 30 of the Col Regs state you should. The issue of anchoring not just from an insurance point of view is even more interesting from a Col Regs point of view. In particular Rule 5 maintaining a look out which still applies when you are at anchor. When insurance companies in the Uk deal with car insurance collision claims, they look at provisions within the Highway Code in respect of liability. I suspect the same applies with yacht insurance and Col Regs.

[@keithgabriel8455]

I often anchor when cruising single-handed (GJW give me cover for passages of up to 18 hrs single-handed, and have said they would cover 24 hour passages on application owing to my experience and the level of equipment on the boat). A requirement to keep watch while anchored single-handed would quickly result in an exhausted skipper and a much higher claims risk, so the provisions for good seamanship in the prevailing circumstances would apply. I also note that Rule 5 is in the section titled "Steering and Sailing Rules" in which all the other rules (4 & 6-19) deal with avoiding collisions between vessels under way. So I don't think that Rule 5 applies to an anchored yacht.

[@SailingPickleFamily]

I haven’t had a chance to watch this yet, I’ll sit down later hopefully! 🤞 but I just wanted to pop on and say sorry I haven’t been in touch, when we returned to the UK I contacted my insurance company and they dragged their heels getting back to me, but basically they’ve said they can’t insure me at all to cross the Atlantic because of the age of my boat etc! Honestly, what a nightmare! Thank you so much for highlighting this to me ❤ Hope you guys are well and starting a fantastic season of sailing lotsa love Nicky xxx

[@svfairisle]

No problem, hope you're getting things sorted. Lets catch up when you can

[@boatbuilderPortishead]

Great episode. Insurance is a game of mathematics in a competitive market place. Yachts continue to get bigger and more expensive, this will drive up premium. The marine industry sells expensive kit that isn't super reliable - this drives in premiums. Severe storms (not just hurricanes) are getting more common as are other extreme weather events.

[@svfairisle]

Yes all true but with all the modern nav gear it’s got to be safer than when I sailed in my twenty’s with a sextant and paper charts! Can’t remember people moaning about insurance then

[@Xalta_Sailor]

Can we have some links to Data that storms are more severe and frequent? All I can find seems to point otherwise. Thanks

[@DirkJacobsz]

Great episode - was so much easier in 2004 - sailed across the Indian Ocean without insurance and no one asked if we had it when we went into a marina either - now it is a nightmare..then we we get hammered for being shorthanded - and we like sailing like that..

[@1240enzo]

Surely, yacht insurance depends on a multitude of factors, such that it actually doesn’t have to be that expensive. In my case, my 1974 30 ft boat is insured for a bit more than I paid for it, that is I paid $32K and it’s insured for $35K. The annual comprehensive insurance, as is required by my yacht club for berthing in the marina (Hobart/Tasmania) costs $1350. The annual marina fee in comparison is $6K. So, in my view the insurance cost is perfectly fine.

[@keithgabriel8455]

From 2020 to 2022 we had cover with Pantaenius for the whole of the Med, and all northern Europe up to 67°N including the Baltic, and they were quite happy with us crossing Biscay in November. They have, or at least had, a world map of 'Pantaenius Cruising Areas' which included most sea areas other than the polar regions. I only switched to another provider because they wanted a substantial extra premium to enter a one day social regatta with only a dozen yachts. A UK national school friend who lives in the US had huge difficulty last year getting insurance for an Outremer 51 which he bought in the Med and wanted to sail back to the US with the ARC; he eventually got cover by switching the yacht to Guernsey flag.

[@tomcollins4823]

Great subject choice and interesting interview. I had to pay 4x my premium for northern Europe to criss the Indian ocean despite 30k+ nm without a claim

[@svfairisle]

Yes insurance companies do seem to think Europe is safer than the rest of the world! Not sure it’s true, but as we’re heading back that way we’re not arguing!

[@sv_skidbladnir]

Thanks for this, great info! Just shows even the broker has to investigate what some of these insurance policies actually mean.

[@Undead8]

I have a Canadian flag boat in the Med and the only insurer available was Global Yacht Cover. I used a Canadian broker.

[@Timmygobang]

I'll share my experience from 5 years ago when I needed cover for my 30ft full keel boat to cross the Atlantic. Frustrating lol! Some insurers would say I needed a crew of 3 or more (I was doublehanded), or my boat was too old ('87) or too small. All this at a time when the GGR was being reignited. It was senseless trying to debate with a insurer that a full keel, heavy displacement 30 footer from the '80s was in my view a safer boat than modern production boats. I phoned around as many insurers as possible (I didn't use a broker) and eventually got the cover I needed. Thank you Pantaenius I'd also add, that it would be tempting not to get insurance and wing it, but Id' be concerned about semi submerged containers and whales. Half way across we had maybe 6 or 7 whales shoot down waves from behind us, turn upside down so you could see their bellies as they slid from one side to the other under the keel. It was exhillerating to see and on reflection I'm glad they were friendlies!

[@OspreySailingAdventures-ch1mj]

Great video topic. I have Australian registration and there is only 1 insurance company for Australian vessels in 2024. My policy stipulates we are not insured if we leave the vessel on anchor in wind strength above 25kn. It’s a little bit restricting but to be honest I wouldn’t feel comfortable leaving it either. Before purchasing I did have extensive conversation with my insurance company on the costs of cruising the med, the Caribbean and even the Pacific and its eye watering. On first first lap around the sun we didn’t have insurance as it didn’t exist outside of coastal waters so we registered the vessel as a company to limit our liability. Thankfully we never needed it.

[@OspreySailingAdventures-ch1mj]

That was 35 years ago I add

[@olavthyvold2288]

Very enlightening. Thanks!

[@Ableis999]

With reference to sensible anchoring... Navily has a great feature showing the suitability for the current weather conditions in a "traffic light" style. This would be good evidence for the insurers. Great video 👍

[@svfairisle]

Yes their little graph is a good guide, not always 100% accurate of course but you’re right it shows due diligence. Storms can come up unexpectedly of course, I think only anchoring in a place that’s got a proper forecast storm incoming that you ignored would really get you in trouble with an anchorage being deemed not ‘safe and secure’ but a grey area for sure

[@simonpickering2665]

Putting your boat on a mooring ball in the bvi / not inspecting that mooring / leaving the boat unattended / swimming ashore because it is too roughy to use the rib due to surf on the beach / the boat reaching the beach before you do = a declinable claim

[@jamesstrom6991]

@@simonpickering2665sounds like an experience… can you elaborate?

[@Mikeandlucy1]

Interesting video. I have just had a run in with someone on KZbin when I criticised a couple whose boat ended up on a reef and they were not insured. I have a 24ft Motor Sailer and Im insured for UK inland and coastal waters. I want to cross to France but from what was discussed here, its apparent that getting a UK based Insurer to cover me won't be easy and its proving not to be. The Broker can find loads of companies that say they will but when it comes to the crunch, the algorithm she says no

[@svfairisle]

Give Velos a call, they can insure you in Europe no problem, most UK based companies should on a UK flagged vessel so not sure why you’re getting so much trouble. The issue post Brexit is you won’t be able to get a French based company insuring a UK flagged vessel, so if you’re basing your boat somewhere in Europe and want to get a local insurer you probably can’t

[@Mikeandlucy1]

@@svfairisle Thanks for that, you're right, its a minefield out there and quite beyond the understanding of mere mortals. Im based in the Solent (you are correct, if you are having trouble finding another vessel to run in to, cruise the Solent there are plenty to chose from) Love the channel,subscribed ages ago and been following your journey ever since.

[@monroe3004]

Over many years my insurance ( on my small secondhand yacht) always required the value to be broken down by hull, engine and rigging. This was the max that they would pay for each on total loss. This really meant that you would always out of pocket on losing anything or you had to insure for an unrealisic value. And they required a survey every second year. I guess I paid twice the value of the yacht over the years without ever a claim. But at least I was covered for 3rd party damage.

[@ronauger]

A check box for live-aboard? Be careful what you wish for. :) In my experience shopping for insurance, I was under the same misconception as you. I thought being a live-aboard would lower insurance premiums but it had the opposite effect. In fact admitting you were a live-aboard would raise or sometimes deny insurance, for their own unexpressed reasoning. My broker said not to admit to being a live-aboard at all.

[@IWANVOLLEBREGT]

I have had no problem insuring for European waters, UK EU including Canaries no problem however crossing the Atlantic same as you guys crazy rates! especially going short handed, great interview

[@paulwallis2771]

Very helpful and a interesting view on the mysterious way boat insurance is calculated. Out of interest to my future plans are you able to say a bull park figure on how much your Carribbean insurance is costing? Thanks Paul

[@svfairisle]

It’s honestly not going to help you much comparing one boat with another as the figures vary massively on personal circumstances. The one thing that seems to be reasonable constant though is you will be looking at around 3 times your personal cost in the Med, or slightly more than that if you’re used the UK prices. I’m not completely sure about how it compares with US insurance, but maybe on par or just slightly more.

[@paulwallis2771]

@svfairisle thanks, just starting to think about our Carribbean plan for two years time.

[@svgabrielle]

Thanks, really useful. Also liveaboard which made no difference to our premiums. Experience level is a big factor so I took the Yachtmaster and my wife Day Skipper shorebased/practical which helps plus being RYA/CA members gives discount too. Had to pay 'extras' for going north of 60-LAT in Norway and cover for crossing Biscay in October was tricky. Our broker has already advised that to get sensible quote for an Atlantic crossing, we'll need a crew of four; face that challenge when it comes! Spanish Guarda Civil stopped us five times in four weeks asking for passports, ships registration and insurance. A Dutch neighbour had no insurance documents aboard so a family member had to email a copy from home. Must be very difficult now to cruise without insurance?

[@svfairisle]

I’m not sure the Guarda Civil can enforce insurance on a yacht in the open sea, knowing what some of them can be like I’m sure they can make your life difficult though.

[@oceanposse]

you can get local insurance in Panama ~ 1% of hull value with an in water survey

[@SailingSVCordelia]

Thank you guys, very interesting. We wondered what you'd done about crossing the Atlantic after calling us. Be interested to know what % saving you've made by moving to Velos, thanks ⛵️

[@svfairisle]

Velos were the cheapest ‘A rated’ insurer we found in the Caribbean mainly because they weren’t insisting on having a new full survey done. PS I tried to send you our email so we could get you details and set up a zoom call about the ABC’s but I think you comments blocked it. It’s [e-mail] if you want to drop us a line.

[@StefanRogach]

My cruising grounds are UK. My insurance this year was exactly the same as last year. Last year my insurance went down by a few pounds. Pays to shop around.

[@svfairisle]

You’ve got some choice being a UK flagged vessel in UK waters, as Stephan was saying though you will struggle to get more insurers than you can count with one hand willing to cover you for Bluewater sailing, so shopping around is very very limited for people like us.

[@fraserwright9482]

Yes, I think your Atlantic crossing and this interview illustrated the anecdotal issues. People looking at their own box and not understanding it's not linear across the world or that other people dictate your risk as much as your own actions.

[@stevephillips3300]

Great info. Thanks

[@paulwilliams3494]

Interesting and a very pleasant chap with a lot of knowledge . Insurers are essentially book makers the same as on a race course but probably hold more data to assess risk hence the often seemingly random and potentially meaningless tick boxes. One of the worlds largest industries by revenue I would imagine. No great sympathy for them but given the world as it is and the behaviour of some of it's inhabitants I expect they have a tougher time than 50 years ago to be 'fair' to the 'genuine ones' !!.....As he said it's one big pot run by actuaries not your local 'Rep' anymore. Shame.

[@stephengamble2804]

Seems to me that the insurers are moving to a position where they'll only insure cruising yachts if there's no risk to them.

[@svfairisle]

What actually happened is that the marine industry was making a loss for insurers for a couple of years so a large proportion of them just stopped writing business for yachts or even the marine business as a whole. Those that were left had a reset of premiums, there will never be no risk of course but you’re right things like ocean crossings are certainly getting harder to do with insurance

[@perfstaas7188]

LOL LOL "Tailermaid". What do you have and what did you pay? Wood you tell here? And way do you have it? i odnt think you will share it here. Butt if you did, that wood be great : )

[@svfairisle]

We don’t mind giving prices but to be honest it’s no real use as each case is completely different. We are paying just over £4,500, the next nearest quote was over £5,000 and wanted a full survey, so would be an extra £1,000 or so on top. Our premiums in the Med were a small fraction of that.

[@perfstaas7188]

@@svfairisle I asked: WHAT have you insured. The price is way downt the list of what is omportante : ) The details of the most imorten things. That is what i am asking : ) Did you understand?

[@svfairisle]

@@perfstaas7188 It's comprehensive insurance for the boat, so everything, with a whole list of deductibles of course and a few double deductibles for good measure

[@lenwhatever4187]

The only insurance I _need_ is PLPD. but to get that, I have to have full insurance. My insurance rate will pay for the boat in 10 years or so. I would not expect to insure the value of work I do to keep the boat up, in the same way I could not expect to recoup upkeep costs if I sold it. I can afford to buy another boat of similar age/design but I can't afford the cost of the dock if I catch fire or sink next to it or someone dies because they decide to try and steal something from it and fall in the water when I am not there to rescue them (and their mommy sues).

[@KarenSalamon]

Thanks for posting this video. I am currently in the process of renewing insurance and got two quotes from two different underwriters. Your video prompted me to ask the brokers more questions. It turns out one quote covers named storms and limits us to the area you talked about and the other one doesn’t cover named storms but allows us to sail everywhere except Venezuela, Colombia and Cuba. What are your thoughts on this option? I’m having difficulty choosing between the two.

[@svfairisle]

Yes they pretty much all write off Venezuela (considered unsafe at the moment) Cuba (if the underwriters are in any way linked to the US, because of ongoing sanctions) don’t know why Columbia is on the list though, we are sailing there now, Velos has no issues. The decision about wether be in the hurricane box from July to November though has to be carefully thought through, it’s not just about insurance. I suggest you watch our episode on hurricane Beryl if you want to see what being in the wrong place there can mean! However if you are aboard the whole time there’s warning of hurricanes coming through but really to be safe I wouldn’t go further North than around Martinique as you will usually be running South to get out of the way. Personally I wouldn’t position myself in the hurricane box for the whole of that period no matter what insurance I had

[@KarenSalamon]

@ yes we are leaning toward the policy that doesn’t cover named storms but allows travel to more places…we’re planning on staying on our boat during the hurricane season… but of course we make plans and they don’t always pan out!

[@kennethpole2439]

Do any sailors opt solely for public liability and public damage coverage - a requirement at pretty well all marinas - and effectively self-insure?

[@kennethpole2439]

Apologies, I see that's been answered.

[@dougmarder]

Its great to have a broker's POV, but you really should get someone from one of the main insurers to try to talk to you on camera. You will get a different perspective from the actual underwriters and carriers.

[@judyaslett6209]

😂We tried and no one would agree to be interviewed. We would LOVE to talk to them!

[@dougmarder]

@ as I recall, since Irma and Maria swept away the charter fleets in the Caribbean, the maritime insurance business consolidated around only 2 or 3 carriers, with Lloyds still being the largest. Your Velos broker should be able to tell you who is underwriting your policy. Follow the chain back to the carrier. There will be a contact somewhere on a website or even LinkedIn for a PR department at the underwriter/carrier. You guys have a sufficient subscriber-base to get their attention.

[@paulgilliland2992]

Highly unlikely that LOL would authorize an executive for a KZbin interview.

[@dougmarder]

@@paulgilliland2992 there was one done a few years ago with another channel. I tried to find it but gave up.

[@colin.chaffers]

I wonder if you can get insurance for travelling through the gulf of aden? Probably not.

[@svfairisle]

We had a friend do a boat delivery from the Caribbean to Dubai via the gulf this year & to the best of my knowledge that boat was insured, so I guess if you have deep enough pockets you can insure anything

[@graemefenwick6925]

Ironically, my insurer won't insure live-aboards. Go figure.

[@dnihilist]

Did Ken have insurance on his transat?

[@svfairisle]

Yes he did. That’s the whole point, insurance doesn’t mean you pay for everything as if it’s a new boat you have to act as prudent uninsured, it’s all explained in the interview

[@dnihilist]

@@svfairisle ok wasn't clear as I didn't think he would be insured as hard to get coverage double handing. Most couples take on extra crew for insurance purposes for transats and transpacs

[@svfairisle]

@@dnihilist Yes I'm sure he had to pay a lot of money to get insured. We crossed the Atlantic without full insurance with just the two of us, but we could have been insured if we were willing to pay a massive premium

[@dnihilist]

@@svfairisle how massive? 2x annual premium just for the transit?

[@svfairisle]

The lowest we had was £5,000 and they still wanted one more crew, we didn't bother asking how much without

[@EngineerK]

I asked our insurer about insuring for a lower hull value coupled with high(er) deductible and they said this was not possible. I wonder why?

[@svfairisle]

Yes strange, that’s usually possible.

[@timlamarre8680]

So, you were uninsured crossing the Atlantic? How difficult a choice was that to make?Thank you for posting.

[@judyaslett6209]

Well we were insured 3rd party and health so we would be rescued and any hospital fees covered. It wasn’t so difficult because we picked a good weather window to cross but there is always a danger something could go wrong. I sleep better at night now we have insurance but the cost is impacting our budget somewhat….

[@timlamarre8680]

@@judyaslett6209 We will be dealing with the insurance issue shortly as we head down into Mexico. You are slowly headed our way and we might just cross paths. really enjoy your cantent. Thank you for responding. SV Koukla

[@robertfontaine3650]

Getting insurance is one thing. Actually getting coverage or making a claim is an entirely different thing. The payouts don't cover the losses if and when they actually occur. The videos on this are always from the perspective of 'Can I get Insurance' rather than what happens when I make a claim.

[@svfairisle]

Yes impossible to cover the nuances of making a claim of course as they are all unique. We did ask some general questions about situations where a claim may or may not go thorough but Stephan quite rightly couldn’t give a definitive answer to a fictitious situation as it does depend on so many things, and in any case it’s down to the underwriter not the broker. The best you can do is go with a well respected insurance company and get a relationship going with your broker so you’re both on the same page. Ken , who we interviewed after he lost his masts mid Atlantic, was with Velos by the way and managed to work things out to everyone’s liking using the ‘prudent uninsured’ method of getting things back together.

[@simonpickering2665]

I have handled many claims as a surveyor and loss adjuster representing insurers and have never experienced an insurer declining a valid claim - I have experienced clients not “acting as a prudent uninsured” - standing back and allowing the vessel to suffer further damage due to in action , claiming costs that are not valid or are inflated (3x cost of the same part shipped from UK) ….

[@jonasnyqvist5742]

The Insurance companies are all happy to take your your money when you need an insurance (many marinas wont let you in without an insurance) but paying out when something happens is a different thing.

[@svfairisle]

There’s always been an element of that with any insurance company of course. I think you may increase your odds of finding an insurance company that pays out when needed if you go to a broker and get to know them, what their rules are etc. don’t just fill in a policy on a portal

[@simonpickering2665]

The primary issue here is most boat owners think the insurance should and will deal direct with organizing and paying for the repair - as the broker discusses above marine insurance works on the principle if acting as a prudent uninsured - that means you repair and pay for the damage and claim latter and receive a settlement from the insurers at a later date …. Because historically in a foreign port pre internet etc the captain has to solve the problem and get his vessel moving - marine insurance is a historic industry ….

[@martincrick2158]

Many boats in the Solent hardly ever seem to go out sailing, and are less likely to generate a claim while moored in a marina. As liveaboards you use your boat ever so much more, so are more likely to generate a claim. I'd also guess that the proportion of charter boats in the Caribbean is also higher: they also get more intensive use and are treated with much less care, hence likely to generate more claims. Sadly, also, the Caribbean has a reputation (don't know if it's deserved or not) for crime, another big source of claims. All of those factors will lead to higher claim costs per insured boat on average. You point out that liveaboards maintain boats better. True in your case, evidenced by many excellent videos, but I've seen many living on a shoe string budget where that might be disputed. A claim resulting from poor maintenance is likely to be disputed by the insurance company, so this is probably not a big factor in claim costs anyway.

[@svfairisle]

Yes all good points, I guess it’s difficult to categorise different sailors, maybe insurance companies have a harder time than we give them credit for!

[@joemarion2284]

Insurance companies are for profit companies and they are more responsible to the share holders than they are to the policy holders. Return on investment is the driving force of most business today. Underwriters are squeezing the boxes smaller every year to limit their liability thus their chance of having a claim.

[@simonpickering2665]

Grenada has too many virtually derelict boats which are highly likely to break their moorings in a strong breeze

[@carltontweedle5724]

Does being a Yacht Master help with the cost or just being a day Captain. Plus having lots of hours at sea that must help. I agree a live aboard spends more time looking after there boat then most coastal cruisers. But it is still a rip off just like car or house insurance. Thank Billy no act of god. HAHAHA

[@svfairisle]

Yes insurance likes certificates, they also always seem to give discounts for being a member of a yacht club, never quite understood why

[@mikemcnamee6030]

@8:37 he said doo-doo 🤭

[@PeterFagerberg]

So here’s an idea… instead of feeding fat bankers with premiums, why not start a fund for liveaboards? Each member will pay a montly fee and your claim payout would be based on how much you’ve put into the fund (based on some formulae). Community members could act as surveyors. It would be like a community where people help each other out AND there is a bit of a financial safety net in case of trouble. No brokers, no underwriters, no actuators, and no bankers taking their cut. This is actually how "insurance" started out before people found out you could make a lot of money out of it. Or is it too socialist? 😊

[@svfairisle]

Sounds like a great idea, give it a few years & I’m sure someone set up an app

[@RebelCowboysRVs]

Really expected some talk on level of coverage. I dont keep insurance to fix my stuff, I keep insurance to protect from my liability if I mess up an cause harm to others. Some people need insurance to pay the boat off if it sinks. Others own the boat outright an can afford to just buy another so don't. But they need to be covered for liability even more than someone who is financially less well off.

[@judyaslett6209]

We are talking about full cover except for the crossing where we had 3rd party. FYI 3rd party is much cheaper if you can get it

[@jacobuszwanenburg1629]

Explain !? Look … oh well too late you missed it ! Scam is insurance ! Just pay pay pay Insurance will never lose money . The only way to beat that is not to buy it Sort it out yourself !!!!! Insurance won’t pay for multiple reasons.