Yes, Lactase Persistence is a New Beneficial Trait with Standing for Truth and Rawmatt

[@CharlesPayet]

I still do not understand why anyone would remotely consider taking the word of a completely untrained amateur over a professional molecular biologist.

[@CreationMyths]

I think it rhymes with "ponfirming your tires".

[@queuecee]

@@CreationMyths The fallacy of confirmation tires??? I'll bet they are bigger than tractor tires.

[@moneyheist_-]

@CharlesPayet you are trying to appeal to authority

[@CharlesPayet]

@@moneyheist_- no, I’m appealing to an ACTUAL EXPERT who knows WTH they’re talking about vs an uneducated know-nothing. And you don’t understand logical fallacies.

[@moneyheist_-]

@@CharlesPayet okay, no problem, you can appear to authority all you want. What field are you knowledgeable in?

[@heathenwizard]

RawMatt makes two fundamental errors regarding Selection starting at 13:50. He assumes that a beneficial mutation MUST spread to the point of fixation, and that past selective pressures are identical to current ones. Grayson needles him rightly for the second. Because of drift and mutation, it’s entirely possible for a population that has achieved fixation of lactase persistence genes to birth individuals WITHOUT lactase persistence.

[@queuecee]

Evolution is all about distribution of heritable traits. It's practically impossible for a population to have 100% of one trait. And even if the entire population had two copies of the exact same dominant allele, it still doesn't mean that there won't be an individual born with a different allele. And for lactase persistence, there is a slight disadvantage to persistently making lactase. But that disadvantage is offset by the advantage of being able to metabolize milk throughout life, at least for the humans with access to milk from domesticated animals.

[@CreationMyths]

@heathenwizard Zero understanding of population genetics from rawmatt. Beneficial traits do not automatically fix.

[@NeutralDrow]

I mean...duh, right? That's where there's always been a handful of European-, Indian-, Mongolian-, etc.-descended people who were still born lactose intolerant.

[@mrapistevist]

I will turn 79 years old in two weeks and not only do I eat yogurt I find it necessary for my digestive health.

[@EthelredHardrede-nz8yv]

72 recently, due to me not getting my Social Security soon enough, I was down to rice, lentils and oil for several weeks. When I got my money, even though I knew I needed to be careful, I had gas pains, pretty bad. So I bought antigas pills and lactase pills. It took a few weeks but I was soon able to digest lactose again. Heck I was drinking milk with brownies while watching this. Oh Northern European genetics so I have the lactase persistence mutations. Apparently they can get suppressed if not used.

[@AnnoyingNewsletters]

Don't the bacterial cultures in Yogurt and cheeses break down the lactose, anyways?

[@EthelredHardrede-nz8yv]

@@AnnoyingNewsletters Not cheese as I worked with Japanese Americans that had to take lactase to eat pizza. Don't know about Yogurt.

[@queuecee]

@@AnnoyingNewsletters Yes, the bacteria does break down the lactose during the fermentation process in yoghurt and the aging process in cheese, but not all. So there'll be less than in the original milk, but there is still going to be some lactose. For cheese, there's a lot of variation depending on the aging process. So hard cheeses will have pretty low amount of lactose. But soft and fresh cheese, such as mozzarella in pizza or cottage cheese, there will be a lot more. Hence the comment above about pizza. There is some research suggesting that gut bacteria may help with the intolerance by helping digest the lactose. Here's one: Zhong, Yan, Marion G. Priebe, Roel J. Vonk, Cheng-Yu Huang, Jean-Michel Antoine, Tao He, Hermie JM Harmsen, and Gjalt W. Welling. "The role of colonic microbiota in lactose intolerance." Digestive diseases and sciences 49 (2004): 78-83.

[@MossyMozart]

In the PBS series, _Food - Delicious Science,_ they covered lactose toleration. There are, as we know, a number of people who can tolerate lactose for their entire lives; they tend to be people who raise dairy cows. The example they gave was a family of Bulgaria dairy farmers. They created a large amount of yogurt daily for their own consumption, as well as drinking milk, etc. ------------------ An aside that is very cool - - - Mushrooms have the same mechanism that Sapiens do to manufacture Vitamin D from sunlight. If you slice mushrooms and leave them in the sun for a few hours (especially if the gills get light), then the amount of Vit D in the 'shrooms soars. The Bulgaria family treats lots of mushrooms to the sun and lets them dry out so they get the vitamin throughout the winter, too.

[@andrewcoming8855]

Preemptive like for the algorithm and the ability to digest lactose!

[@CreationMyths]

Much appreciated, on both counts.

[@moneyheist_-]

​@@CreationMythsare you saying that most people not being able to drink milk when they get older is beneficial?

[@SimonTheScienceGuy]

​@@moneyheist_- "The creator" didn't want older people to drink milk

[@moneyheist_-]

@@SimonTheScienceGuythe creator created us perfect, we no mutations. Many older people can drink milk. Not drinking milk is not a benefit.

[@SimonTheScienceGuy]

@@moneyheist_- where does that mutation comes from?

[@hank_says_things]

Donny & Salmonella Matt. The two people I have the *least* confidence in when it comes to biology, genetics, epigenetics, fields that are even tangentially related, or even what kind of convenient foldable device I might use to keep rain off my head.

[@VinceOConnor]

Thanks for the information!

[@CreationMyths]

You are very welcome.

[@budd2nd]

I’m so pleased Dr Dan that I watched your earlier video about this subject. Because I have run into creationists on Quora using the same apologetics arguments. To get around this obvious example of a beneficial mutation. So thanks so much for spreading the knowledge and thereby vaccinating us non-biologists. 👍👍

[@CreationMyths]

That's awesome. Thank you.

[@budd2nd]

@@CreationMyths You are very welcome. As an undiagnosed dyslexic, (40 years ago.) I was denied a higher scientific education, as I was deemed to be too stupid. But I’m very interested in evolution and anthropology, so I love learning from your videos.👍👍

[@MossyMozart]

@@budd2nd - So sorry that you were denied the learning you wanted, but i am happy that you are catching up now!

[@budd2nd]

@@MossyMozart Thanks 👍

[@timhaines3877]

I'm just here for the beta-galactosidase.

[@susansays]

This comment is for the algorithm, but I wanted to actually say something too: I know that you set a goal of posting more often. That you have been able to stick with your goal so far is noted and appreciated! Previously I didn't look for your videos that much because the posts were so infrequent, but now I'm looking for your videos every week. :-) Very cool.

[@CreationMyths]

I love to hear that, thank you. Gonna keep it up as best I can.

[@dib737]

Interaction for the algorithm

[@CreationMyths]

Offering accepted, The Algorithm thanks you.

[@gordmain5370]

This is great information. I thought that "lactase persistence" meant that the creation of the enzyme was inhibited later in life. I didn't realize that there was a enhancer and affinities. I'll need to listen to your part of the discussion again to remember better. Is lactase persistence not necessary if other food sources are available? So would not result in the mutation becoming fixated.

[@mjjoe76]

Now I want cheese. To be fair, this is not exactly an unusual occurrence.

[@nemock]

Dr Dan: "demonstrable evidence and facts" Mr Matt "circuitous rhetoric"

[@jonneexplorer]

ah yes... The famously food deprived region of north west Europe... With a lactase persistence rate of somewhere between 89% and 96% we must be starving out here!

[@Dloin]

Matt: "If it was a beneficial Mutation it would have reached fixation a long time ago!" Well, we need a source for that Matt. Whats the rule? 5 Minutes? Or just before a Creationist sees it? What speed of Mutation -> Fixation is required to satisfy you?

[@CreationMyths]

Bold of you to think he understands what he's saying there. Remember, we're in "individuals have to die for natural selection to work" territory.

[@sahb8091]

Why do they insist on these embarrassing mental gymnastics. They can’t argue the fact and so instead somehow framing it as a ‘loss’ or reduction is better for their position than looking at it as a gain? Really sad to be so committed to denying reality.

[@CreationMyths]

And it's extra dumb because it's not make-or-break for their position to just acknowledge that some mutations can be beneficial! Just agree to that and move on, still happily YECing. Is the position so fragile that simple beneficial mutations defeat it?

[@speciesspeciate6429]

I couldn't stop laughing when SfT said he knew that you had studied this a lot, and so had Matt. Lol. How can self-taught science online be comparable with actually going to college and studying it for a lifetime? That's a rhetorical question, of course.

[@seedye]

One day, someone woke up and decided to try gently squeezing the animals instead of bashing them, and a whole new diet was formed. Thousands of years later, some guy thought gently squeezed animal byproducts on flaked corn would prevent masturbation, and invented a new diet.

[@mjjoe76]

That’s an interesting way to describe Kellogg’s cereal.

[@MossyMozart]

@@mjjoe76 - And to describe Kellogg!

[@NinjaMonkeyPrime]

I once had a creationist try to argue that this mutation was actually not beneficial because it didn't trigger for humans to wean away from breast feeding. I wish I was kidding.

[@MossyMozart]

Sounds jealous to me.

[@maxjohn6012]

My experience is that, very commonly, cdesign proponentists will move the goalposts to whining that a mutation such as lactase persistence relies on pre-existing genetic sequences. Of course, this is monumentally silly, but I think it's worth mentioning in the context of equipping people to at least predict the flow of a conversation like this with a cdesign proponentist, e.g.: "There are no examples of beneficial mutations" (typically with reference to "new genetic information"). [An obvious example is presented.] "Ah but that's not new, it relies on a pre-existing sequence." Which of course highlights that any armchair creationist likely relies on parroting talking points without any reflexive understanding of the relevant concepts, right down to a basic understanding of ... it's so silly that it's hard to put into words ... like literally how a genome works. Nice video, Dan :)

[@CreationMyths]

You're exactly right. "Sure, that's a new beneficial trait, but it's not NEW new." Which...and? Evolution doesn't work like pokemon and the X-men.

[@rumraket38]

They clearly didn't get the point about the competitive regulation, with other pathways with stronger promoters dominating later in life. In short, they don't understand how the ability to digest lactose is regulated in the first place, and don't understand the importance of later-in-life development, and how the new mutations in the enhancer doesn't actually break anything.

[@CreationMyths]

No, they did not, and I wouldn't expect them to.

[@sciencenerd7639]

15:18 Scandinavia and where? (what was the other dairy intense culture?) great video, thanks you should do a video about nylonase (if you want to, I just think it could be an interesting topic)

[@GuyInAChair3]

Hi, I haven't watched the entire video yet but I think I know the answer. Lactase persistence came about in Europe, and is probably what most people know about. It also came about, through different mutations around Yemen, probably as a result of domesticating camels. Also, at least a 3rd time it arouse in middle-Africa At a minimum lactase persistence evolved 3 separate times, through 3 separate genetic pathways.

[@CreationMyths]

The ones that I know are, I think, Scandinavia and approximately Morocco. Basically, crop failures for different climate-related reasons leads to strong selection for being able to survive by drinking the milk from livestock.

[@RCGamex]

Is it possible for Uncooked Mathew to make a point beyond incredulity?

[@CreationMyths]

To the extent I can understand the point he's trying to make...no. But I often can't understand the point he's trying to make, so...maybe?

[@MossyMozart]

@@CreationMyths - You may not look it, with your "smarty pants" glasses and all, but you are a very funny guy!

[@NitroIndigo]

I have no idea why YECs think that "information" can only be lost. It's not central to their beliefs, except something something the Fall cursed everything.

[@CreationMyths]

Right? Why die on this hill?

[@histreeonics7770]

At 9:00 Raw Matt just totally ignored the competition for transcription stuff that Dan explained.

[@CreationMyths]

As expected. If/when this comes up again, he'll say the same nonsense, like this conversation never happened.

[@histreeonics7770]

@@CreationMyths The idea that genes compete for transcription enzymes was new to me but once you mentioned it it was obvious how that can do what Rawmatt thinks only epigenetic processes can do.

[@CreationMyths]

It's super cool.

[@Pibblepunk]

Dan, you must have a masochistic streak. Talking to these people is just painful

[@CreationMyths]

You're not wrong, but look. You gotta go where the audience is, right? If I'm gonna reach YECs, it means putting up with...people...like Donny Deals and Rawmatt.

[@EthelredHardrede-nz8yv]

@@CreationMyths I can handle Donny but why does anyone have anything to do with that blatant liar Raw Matt, he is alive so he lied for 2 years about being a breatharian. I am not aware of his apologizing ever for those lies.

[@CreationMyths]

@@EthelredHardrede-nz8yv Or the whole PLOS "paper" thing, deceptively editing videos, the blatant misogyny...screw that guy. Just a liar and a hack.

[@Jrathage]

Resorting to a double negative in an attempt to avoid talking about an evolutionary change in a positive light is just too absurd. "It's not a new ability, it's the loss of the ability to not have an ability!"

[@andrewp.7626]

Comment for the algorithm

[@CreationMyths]

Much appreciated.

[@cathe8282]

"why would it stay on in some people and not in others..." Um, isn't that what a mutation like this does???

[@nebulan]

My parents are in their 60s and can eat ice cream. I became lactose intolerant at 30yo. If it was epigenetic, why did my lactase abandon me? 😭😭

[@LDrosophila]

What was Matt's epigenetic argument?

[@lucash7012]

Where can I find the original video? Interested in that segment on nylonase

[@CreationMyths]

If you want to subject yourself to Standing for Truth, that's where you'll find it. It's from last September (that's September, 2023, for anyone reading this in the future).

[@DeepSpace145]

I wonder what would be their take on the fact that some genes exist in variable numbers between different individuals / populations ... For example the Amylase gene evolved, since the first agricultural civilizations, (through gene duplication) in such a way that different populations / ethnic groups have different numbers of these genes (not alleles, but whole genes) : AMY1, AMY2A, AMY2B...etc. And they are all doing their job in assisting different diets ... How would one reconcile this with Young Earth Creationism / Abrahamic traditions ... and why is it that we have different numbers of genes if we came from a single small population of two people without any mutations or gene dupliations and evolution ? This example and many others, show that at least mutations and gene duplications play a role in the evolution of our genome, It's not only about Heterozygosity and Genetic diversity, it's a about a huge slew of points showing that they are just wrong !

[@CreationMyths]

Right, you can't just invoke "created heterozygosity" for that, you'd have to say either there were originally more copies than most people have, or new, functional genes can evolve.

[@DeepSpace145]

@@CreationMyths Yes, created heterozygosity and created diversity are pretty much self-contradictory, because if you say diversity, that means a population with many alleles going around, and it has to be large enough to be statistically significant, selection -wise, and it can't be done without a lot of mutations... Thank you Dr. Dan for bringing these subjects to the public, I really learned a lot, thanks !

[@queuecee]

I think a lot of creationists have a very simplistic view of alleles. They think that there's the "original" allele and then one other "degraded" allele. And they don't seem to get the concept that the advantages and disadvantages of the allele is not some static value. Depending on what's going on in the environment, an allele that's beneficial could become deleterious.

[@DeepSpace145]

@@queuecee Yes, that's right ... fitness is not an absolute concept, it's just relative ... And moreover there is mean fitness, at the population level.. and also there are evolutionary tradeoffs, sometimes a deleterious mutation spreads and becomes fixed in a small population through Genetic Drift even before Natural Selection can "see" it. In this case, all the system can do, is to evolve towards some kind of evolutionary tradeoff, to make mean fitness a little bit better. Creationists have to get rid of that perfectionist worldview, and start to embrace reality as it is.

[@Gdwmartin]

My daughter is the only one in my family or wife's family that was practically born Lactose intolerant. No one knows why or where it came from.

[@AlbertaGeek]

Recessive gene(s), probably. No big mystery.

[@queuecee]

​@@AlbertaGeekPersistence is more likely to be dominant, depending on the mutation. If you have one copy that's persistent and the other copy is not, you will still have persistence, maybe just not as strong. But one way it could be dominant is if the mutation resulted in a strong repressor.

[@bingethinker791]

So does that mean I can drink milkshakes without absorbing the sugar as I get older. Mmmm. More milkshakes.

[@rumraket38]

No, not how it works.

[@queuecee]

If you can't process that lactose, a lot of bad things will happen in your digestive tract.😅

[@MossyMozart]

@@queuecee - Not unless Mr/Ms @bingthinker791 drinks the classic "black & white" shake - it eliminates all the toxins in veggies that way! ---------- Black & white shake = milk, vanilla ice cream, & TONS of chocolate syrup. It's much more chocolatey than using chocolate ice cream in the mix.

[@jessejones1420]

Those little rascals

[@armornick]

Europe is famously known as a place where there is such a food shortage that people have to "resort" to consuming lactose.

[@pencilpauli9442]

Would you mind explaining that please?

[@CreationMyths]

20,000 years ago in Scandinavia, you probably had to deal with the occasional famine.

[@MossyMozart]

@@pencilpauli9442 - I think @armornick is pitching some sarcasm.

[@chrisclark784]

Why do they desperately need creationism to be true, and can't come to terms with people that happily mesh evolution and their religious belief. Is it fear of damnation or deconstruction?

[@godlessrecovery8880]

Matt is such a bizarre human being on so many levels. "Blood and Milk." Uhhh???? You have an incredible amoubt of patience in these conversations Dan, impressive as always.

[@CreationMyths]

Thank you. And yes, I have NO IDEA what he meant by "blood and milk".

[@MossyMozart]

@@CreationMyths - Maybe Raw Meat was referring to the Maasi who bleed their cattle in order to drink the blood? I think it makes up a percentage of their diet. (Maybe it was also a dig against the "primitive" Maasi themselves?)

[@nesslig2025]

Raw Matt clearly doesn’t know what even is. He thinks it’s a gotcha against evolution, specifically when it comes to mutations. But then again, he doesn’t know a lot about anything related to subjects.

[@Rosyna]

Hmm, sometimes you can adhere to scientific principles too much. For example, there being no absolutes in science resulting in what seems like you’re unsure instead of just stating the confidence results of research. The YEC audience can’t deal with that, I’ve sadly learned.

[@richardsuplee8137]

Instead of access to lives ahead of time younshould just offer the time travel technology instead.

[@CreationMyths]

That might require a higher level of membership, but we'll see.

[@supersport22]

Not sure how persistence of a pre-existing trait qualifies as a “new trait.” Also, evidently consuming fermented milk products re-regulates gut bacteria allowing them to consume more lactose. Hence allowing for the consumption of milk sugar. Having said that, Standing for Truth’s strange reluctance to allow for mutations to have beneficial effects is curious. I’m a creationist and there is nothing about beneficial mutations that hurt the creationist cause.

[@CreationMyths]

The new trait is the continued expression due to specific mutations in the upstream enhancer. Gut *bacteria* consuming lactose doesn't allow *you* to get nutrition from it. I agree - creationist models should incorporate beneficial mutations. I don't understand why so many creationists are picking this hill to die on.

[@supersport22]

@@CreationMyths I think there’s evidence that helpful gut bacteria can provide b vitamins to the body, which are high in raw milk. Plus, beneficial gut bacteria can enhance the absorption of calcium. So drinking milk, especially raw or low-temp pasteurized milk could indeed help the body absorb more nutrients. Btw. Your voice sounds very familiar. Did you used to go by a different name?

[@CreationMyths]

So first, yeah, a ton of our gut bacteria are extremely beneficial. I don't know about pasteurized vs not, but that's not relevant to the question of the evolution of lactase persistence, which, again, is in most cases due to one of a handful of specific single-base mutations in that enhancer within that intron of the MCM6 gene. As for sounding familiar, you're not the first person to say that. There are two options. One, which I think is less likely, but possible, is that I used to play paintball a TON and had a paintball channel for a number of years, so if you are/were into paintball, you may know my work from there. The second, more likely option, is that it'll hit you eventually, especially if you watch some sitcom reruns.

[@Crispr_CAS9]

There's an icon I haven't seen in a long time.

[@supersport22]

@@Crispr_CAS9 hey CRISPR. Long time no see.

[@pencilpauli9442]

Off topic, Darth Thoranes' (bottom left) avatar looks a lot like Emma Thorne. Why she forcing people to pray while wearing a Nazi uniform and pointing a double barrelled shot gun is beyond my ken. If it's not Emma, it's a highly disturbing image, and not a good way to get people to turn to God. Very odd

[@CreationMyths]

I did not notice that, but that sure does look like a nazi uniform. What an asshole that is.

[@Nai61a]

pencil etc: That leapt out of the screen at me, too. Never heard of Darth Thoranes, but s/he clearly has it in for Emma Thorne.

[@pencilpauli9442]

@@Nai61a I've just asked him what it's all about. Will try and let you know what he says if he responds.

[@Nai61a]

@@pencilpauli9442 Excellent! Thanks very much. I could not find his channel - but I'm not very good with technology!

[@ajscuell7155]

Attention-seeking amateurs disagree with professional scientist. How many times are we going to have to go over these points? It seems futile. They'll keep denying reality. Best thing to do is give them no attention at all. By going on these shows, you are giving these people a platform. Not long ago, you and Erica said you were both done with SFT.

[@CreationMyths]

You're not wrong about that last bit, and I tried to get everyone to boycott them. While their pool of willing debate participants reduced somewhat, it didn't dry up completely. But they already have a platform and an audience, and they're going to promote this nonsense either way. But being there, that audience is going to hear from the other side, and I *might* catch a few people that way.

[@ajscuell7155]

@@CreationMythsI get your point, but it is frustrating to keep being forced into going round and round in circles about common ancestry, ERVs, beneficial mutations etc etc... You already know with 100% certainty that these clowns will only produce more content repeating the same falsehoods.

[@CreationMyths]

It's true, but there's diminishing returns. We can already see that just over the last few years. Eventually people get bored and they have to continuously find new audiences just to stay stable. And those are just new opportunities to interfere, to catch more people before they fall down the slippery slope.

[@ajscuell7155]

@@CreationMythsWhen I said "giving them a platform" that was poor choice of wording. I am aware they have their platforms and devoted (deluded) audiences. You are right in saying that you can catch people and lead them away from lies and nonsense and into the world of facts and reality; however, it does also add fuel to the fire and lends a certain oxygen of credibility to their arguments by making it seem there IS actually a debate to be had over these topics when we know for sure there isn't. It's a tricky one. Of course, if you didn't participate, we wouldn't be able to watch them squirm which I do admit is quite amusing. On the other hand, I am sick of Donny, Kent and the rest of their little sidekicks. By the way, I am utterly convinced they all know better and don't even believe their own nonsense.

[@vesuvandoppelganger]

How do we know that it was a mutation and not part of the genetic variation in humans that has been there ever since humans were created?

[@CreationMyths]

There are two main mutations involved, and several less common ones. They're found at different frequencies depending on geography, and none of them trace back to our root in sub-Saharan Africa. So they appeared later, after H. sapiens had radiated around the world and started doing agriculture all over the place.

[@borisbauwens7133]

"According to ancient DNA studies, the earliest occurrences of an LP allele (the −13.910:C>T) have been reported in Spain, dated to about 5000 years BP according to PCR data [90], or in Germany and Sweden about 4000 BP according to NGS data [85,88,91,92]. This is in tune with performed extended haplotype homozygosity (EHH) analyses of the sequences surrounding LP SNPs, which have shown that the haplotypes carrying the derived LP-associated alleles are much longer than their ancestral counterparts, supporting a recent origin of these variants [93]" Anguita-Ruiz et al., 2020.

[@queuecee]

I wish creationists could describe the mechanism of how all the genetic variations could have been designed in Adam and Eve's genome such that it can result in ALL the different versions of all the different genes that are in the current human population. Apparently, Adam and Eve's genome had a built-in variation to produce the near 10,000 different alleles of the HLA system. 🙄 Yep, seems like the designer really knew what he was doing.

[@vesuvandoppelganger]

It seems that the most likely explanation is that there were more than 2 people that were created.

[@queuecee]

​@@vesuvandoppelgangerDid he also create all the hominid species that eventually resulted in the H. sapiens? Why do we have all the fossil records of earlier species? You do know that there isn't just Lucy. Right?