Yggdrasil Podcast 17 | Extensive Lore Discussion With SmoughTown

SmoughTown's channel: / smoughtown
0:00 The Deep in Ds3
3:10 Lore in Elden Ring
8:15 Is Elden Ring your favorite?
18:29 Moon stars and glintstone
27:34 Eternal city
32:05 Marika’s plan
44:44 Godwyn and Marika’s unwanted children
48:30 The gloam eyed queen
58:13 Melina
1:08:57 The Flame of Frenzy
1:21:08 Moon
1:25:40 Ranni Ending mistranslation
1:32:09 Stars
1:43:56 Disagreements with Vaati

[@ratatoskr6324]

I've changed my mind about the Omen. Vaati was right they could be connected to the crucible. All the crucible talismans are found around omen. Usually things like that aren't coincidences.

[@gronk-droid]

i appreciate the dialogue between everyone as we piece the story together. you always talk about experiencing the game for yourself first, but the community coming together to appreciate the game just brings something bigger. Vaati's platform paved the way for this and having multiple people looking at the lore at once is such a positive thing. i love this. please, more lore!

[@Tom-iy8bb]

I sincerely appreciate this. It seemed like you came pretty hard down on Vaati without all the information. Even Smough noted that he wasn't sure how Vaati arrived at some of his conclusions. But that doesn't make him wrong, that just means you don't know where he got that information from. I'm looking forward to more of Vaati's videos where he'll deep dive into specific segments and provide more detail to each one.

[@lichkingsservant4111]

This isn’t definitive proof, but Margits tail kind of reminded me of the tail aspect of the crucible.

[@AzariahWolf]

I mean technically, EVERYTHING living is somewhat connected to the crucible if I'm understanding the lore correctly

[@MrFRNTIK]

@@lichkingsservant4111 there's also the horn incantations.

[@VaatiVidya]

Long story short: I appreciate the criticism at the end there. Luckily, I've been able to trim out most of the problematic sections of that video in the KZbin editor, as I've updated many of my theories since its publishing. I'll also update folks on any theories I amend as I release videos. Thanks!

[@Claymore_17]

Great video regardless vaati, you managed to encompass much of the lore into one video which is a challenging thing to accomplish

[@andrewryan1946]

Do you have an updated opinion on the Erdtree=Parasite angle? And if not, would you kindly point me in the direction of the lore which indicates this (as opposed to the Erdtree being the formless Crucible, molded into an Ordered form by the Elden Ring/Greater Will)?

[@abelbabel8484]

Hey Vaati, kudos for being a really good sport :)

[@georgerolandallen]

respect homie

[@thepedanticcreature680]

@@andrewryan1946 Was the claim that he made not that the *Elden Beast* is the parasite, inhabiting the Erdtree which preceded it?

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks for having me on dude and cheers for everyone's support!

[@erikwilliams8692]

Really enjoyed ur mohg vid man

[@petercottantail7850]

I agree that marika wasnt part of the assignation attempt, it just doesnt add up, she gave maliketh the rune, she doesn't need anyone to steal some of it, it's hers, and why would she want to kill her own son? Why would ranni who hates the order, hates her own fingers, side with the woman that her father left rennala for(we dont know if anyone else knows radagon and marika are the same and if ranni did know, that's even more reason to dispise her) she even does away with marika in her ending. or the nox who hate the fingers side with the golden orders vessel. It is heavily implyed by dialogue that ranni has a master plan, iji even says after you complete her quest that this journey couldn't have happened without you(player) The motives ranni has to do with everything she has is makes more since with the context when you beat Rennala, she pleads that ranni 'beckon back the night' The the nox are awaiting the night as well in their discription. With all the moon statues you see around the map, It really feels like the moon worshipers wanted to return their god or maybe even astrology back to the center of the lands between, but the golden order took it away.

[@Anteresttv]

You've quickly hit my spot for favorite lore KZbinr. Keep it up. I'd love a dedicated Marika episode!

[@SmoughTown]

@@Anteresttv I'll add it to the list! Just gonna keep going til I have nothing else to say

[@yo-beastentertainment]

Ur videos are awesome!

[@ratatoskr6324]

I really need to stop interrupting my guest. I just get so excited.

[@JackoWillMakeLives-loveu]

All we can do is acknowledge, then improve. Great show my friend can’t wait for more.

[@sevionmelidan1682]

While listening I actually stopped for a moment and appreciated the fact that both of you are quite courteous. You did interrupt, but at least you apologized. Your enthusiasm definitely shows.

[@chillyan_cheese3344]

Trying to alienate his guests too loll

[@davinsosa1438]

Idk, I like when you talk lol

[@drago2210]

@Ratatoskr At 1:39:30 You say that the requirement for opening the chest containing the Fingerslayer Blade is to kill Radahn. However this is not correct, as you need to kill Radahn in the first place, to be able to reach it. I have actually done this before, I killed Radahn first, went down there to open the chest, and it said: "You are not fated to open this" Then I went to Ranni, which I had already met in her tower, and finally accepted to enter her service. Entering Ranni's service was the requirement to be able to open the chest, not killing Radahn.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

What's really interesting about that is that it implies that the Elden Lord path and the Frenzied Flame path are both potentially considered to be "fateless" I suppose?

[@arcanefire7511]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Interesting. That could make sense, since you are submitting to Outer Gods and are pretty much their pawns. Ranni holding her fate in her hands meant she had to free herself from the Two Fingers' (and the Greater Will's) control after all.

[@cuddlesgamingvids]

I was just about to comment it. Maybe I'm a year too late but I'm just getting into the Elden Ring lore arena hahaha

[@ryankaufman3590]

Interpreting the lore of these games is so much like biblical interpretation. I love it. Tracing the motifs and connections...and if you're really serious you look at the original Hebrew/Greek/Japanese! And then disagreeing with the other "scholars".

[@HANIMEME]

And using the text itself as the basis of any argument without making too many leaps in logic that aren't based on the text.

[@niteheim5670]

The crucible is defined through its aspects found in the incantations: horns, tail, fire. These are also the defining aspects of the dragons, who apparently first came to inhabit the world. Furthermore, the omens have horns and tail, and some of them can spit fire. In the case of Mohg, he embraces the power of fire in the form of blood flame, whereas Morgott hides ("recanted") the cursed fire in his sword. All this to say that the crucible and the omens aren't completely separate, and instead seem to embody aspects of the crucible to a certain degree. It's kind of ironic how these creatures are shunned while at the same time being so close to the original crucible. Kind of like the crucible knights aren't considered sacred anymore and are hidden around the world

[@lollicupkate]

Astrologers could read your fate in the stars, maidens through the fingers, and the people would be like a puppet of their destiny. Ranni wants that fate to be harder to discern. That's why she wants to push back the stars (fate). Her ending is about the fear of the unknown that comes with creating your own destiny. Ties well into the themes of her story.

[@andrewryan1946]

The curse of growing older, your tastes ossifying, and generally enjoying new games less really hits home. Been having an increasingly harder time using my free time to play video games, simply because I’m just not enjoying them anymore. Elden Ring was a breath of fresh air, I thoroughly enjoyed it. But perhaps that is due to the fondness grown for From games in my teenage years. It’s a tough evolution to experience.

[@SomeUnkindledAsh]

Yeah, its actually heartbreaking to me. I just don't get the same things out of gaming that I used to. ER was/still is giving me those old feelings again

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

The worst part about this comment is that if you're referring to Armored core then I know we're around the same age and can relate exactly, but if you're referring to the early part of the souls series then you're still young yet and your concerns about aging are somewhat quaint to me, though still relatable. But yes, as you get older and develop your taste, mostly you just discover that very little of what's available meets your own standards. Still, it's better to have standards than none at all.

[@kasp7674]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Idk man. Having no standards sounds strangely appealing to me.

[@drago2210]

I just stumbled on this description today, after listening to the podcast. From the Godskin Noble Robes: "Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form." Directly calling the early version of the Erdtree, "its Primordial form" , the Crucible. So they are one and the same as you guys were saying and there is the proof.

[@zombiekungfumaster]

It seems like a running theme is that all the Demigods have been, well, violated in one way or another. The Omen twins have cursed blood, Rykard fed himself to a snake god (voluntarily, the blasphemer), Radahn lost his mind to the Scarlet Rot, Melania was "blessed" with uncurable Rot as a child, and the theme is super explicit with Miquella's kidnapping by Mohg. Melina may actually be a sibling of the twins who was cursed by fire (the 3 types of butterfly theory) which is why her body was burnt away leaving only her spirit. Godwyn's spirit was killed but his body lives in death and has become infected with the power of Deathblight. Apparently other minor demigods were hunted by a cult to wear their skin as clothing. And anyone touched by the Frenzied Flame becomes its thrall. Makes me think that Marika is probably enslaved to the Greater Will too and I realized Ranni's decision to discard her own body actually makes sense when every other demigod or Empyrean has basically been raped by an Outer God or some eldritch power Edit: other things that fit this theme are the extremely creepy Seluvius questline and Ranni's response to the Tarnished if they try to give her the Amber Draught. And Fia's power is implied to be sexual in nature and so are the Dung Eater's desecrations, and those are 2 people with the power to create mending runes.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Lol. What does that imply about Goldmask's mending rune? Did he touch Brother Corhyn in his no-no place? Is that why he loses faith in the end?

[@peterruf1462]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Goldmask discovered his mending rune, he didn't make it.

[@bryantbolyen9316]

Oh my god & he can only do that by thinking really really hard abt how Radagon & Marika fucked if the dick was penetrating itself. All the mending runes are about sex holy shit.

[@arcanefire7511]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Come now, Corhyn would be more than happy to serve his master.

[@bbyponk]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe this is a comical image in my head

[@the_twowheel_turtle934]

“Severing a vow, strongest of bonds, has consequences ever more dire” Miriel Pastor of Vows….could this be related to Malenia and Miquella curses since Radagon broke his vows to Rennala?

[@greathorn]

This is what I was thinking too. Miriel drops a lot of “speculation” on the relationship between Rennala, Radagon and Marika that can largely be taken at face value but this felt very specific.

[@arcanefire7511]

What do the outer gods care about whether this random guy was faithful to his wife or not.

[@justinf7107]

@@arcanefire7511 what if it broke some sort of contract that protected the Lands Between from outer gods? A contract that was made with the elden beast’ or something

[@letzgetcheezy8955]

Pope turtle knows da wae

[@baron7562]

@@arcanefire7511 because it proves that they may also be unfaithful to you at some point if their personal interests dont align with you. So, as an outer god, you may not want to put all your trust on that person and either warn/punish them or make a contingency plan in case things go wrong. (and its not just some random guy as you say, its the guy who becomes Elden Lord through this act). In this case the Greater Will chose to punish Marika by cursing her children for supporting the unfaithfulness committed by Radagon. (However that prolly backfired as Marika eventually shattered the elden ring after a series of events) There is a reason why being unfaithful is universally regarded as a bad thing to do....

[@serbiancrusader7813]

"How many times are you gonna interrupt?" Ratatoskr: "yes"

[@ratatoskr6324]

I get excited. 😞

[@serbiancrusader7813]

@@ratatoskr6324 its all good, the podcast opened my eyes to a lot of new lore.

[@arcanefire7511]

I think Smough nailed it about the Moon. I always thought the description of the Ranni's Dark Moon spell described the Moon similar to the primeval current encountered by Azur and Lusat. A powerful, fascinating, mysterious source of magic. And the primeval current is obviously not an outer god. I too think Rennala was working on her own Order like Ranni, in her boss "death" dialogue she say "Little Ranni, my dear daughter, weave thy night into being". I think the Age of Stars is what she's referring to here. Ranni herself describes her order as that of the "chill night".

[@dominickbolieau9328]

Yea just keep in mind that rannis end dialogue is actually a mistranslated mess

[@madmanvarietyshow9605]

@@dominickbolieau9328 and that's the real kicker. So much of the game in general is terribly mistranslated. Supposedly anyway I don't know Japanese aside from a few common words and phrases so I can't give my own take on it I just have to take other people's word for it. But here recently there's been a lot of stuff getting mistranslated into English. A lot of anime for instance. But sadly what we get in the English dub is probably what we're gonna have to deal with because retranslating and recording all the lines would be a massive hassle.

[@SirLogos]

I am surprised no one is talking about the dragon being an elden lord before the age of the Erdtree. This connects to what Godrick says when you first see him, he calls the dragon the true heir. I think he means that the dragons are the true hiers of the Elden Lord lineage.

[@turkN9NE]

I wish you all would get together and discuss your different povs. that would be dope! like you guys, vaati, hawkshaw and whoever else is big in the lore. eredin too

[@ryankaufman3590]

Elden beast has a flaming sword (with a spiral, no less). And it is the guardian of the Erdtree -- or at least the full access to it. Item description mentions great sin, the end and the beginning of an age. It's at least in part inspired and corresponds to the cherubim associated with the flaming sword to guard the way to Eden and the Tree of Life at the end of Genesis 3, after the first sin. The serpentine nature of the Beast is significant too -- serpents and serpentine beasts are pictured as guardians of sacred space in the ancient and certain part of the modern world.

[@trevorweisberg8470]

Shabiri: *Rambling about burning things* Ratatoskr: I like your funny words, magic man

[@stormsoul3162]

Shibiri had me in the first half as well. such a great character. I also love how he tries to tell you not to be worried about him having yours body.

[@ratatoskr6324]

KZbin always puts a lot of ads on these podcasts so can listen on your preferred podcast platforms here: anchor.fm/ratatoskr Podcasts are released there a day after they release on KZbin.

[@chronix7946]

Hey Ratatoskr. Was wondering if you watch/watched the EFAP podcast coverage of Elden Ring. Be interesting if you had a take/did a vid on their thoughts or even go on their podcast

[@edmundploppy344]

Lmao, nice. I was gonna comment the ol' dad joke, "You wants some podcast with your ads?".

[@mkv2718]

@@chronix7946 interesting cast of characters there, but holy moly are those some long podcasts! 8 hours? Yikes.

[@joshuafruth6420]

the three fingers are part of the same hand the two fingers are, one represents chaos and one represents order, the whole twin thing again. it seems all the incantations are from powers that are inherently from the lands between while the sorceries are from the outer gods, just a quick theory I have

[@chronix7946]

@@mkv2718 it flies by lol. But they are a podcast who do go into depth about many a different topic most of which film related. Can watch it in segments, which is a lot of ppls preferred way

[@jonaswest6993]

You made it Smough! Glad to have you here love your content

[@SmoughTown]

Glad to be here! Thank you

[@anaguma90]

I am loving this, thanks both for taking the time to make it! Nerding out big time over all this lore.

[@sunname6252]

Since only time for the disagreement section Erdtree/Great Tree relation thought: The Erdtree is the next step of evolution for a "Great Tree" this is based on something mentioning that the Haligtree "failed to become an Erdtree" Though it's certainly still possible that the Elden Beast influenced that evolution. Stormveil Castle: Perhaps the answer is in the name Storm"Veil" the castle built to stop the Stormlord in someway rather than the other way around, or could just be a normal name for a coastal castle. Omen: My honest guess is Omen are instead born of cursed souls. Souls unable to return to the Erdtree. This is mostly a hunch based on it's description and trying to figure out what the curse Dung Eater is trying to spread actually is. And well, if everyone is cursed in in that manner they must be able to have children who can have children somehow. Marika/Radagon: My personal theory is Radagon is an alternate persona of Marika in someway and was always part of her. This is based on my interpretation of Goldmask's quest. He seemed to be retracing Marika's history (Well, the Golden Order's) and since she was always present to retrace means she was always there, where as Radagon just pops up from nowhere and only the revelation that Radagon is Marika let's him continue says to me that Radagon has always been part of Marika through his entire existence. Further in both the opening cutscene and the boss fight we see Marika physically turn into Radagon. Malenia and Miquella: I feel like them being cursed because of being born by super incest is probably right on the money, especially with the above and do not wish to think about how Marika went about doing so... Although it's possible instead that the super incest allowed other Outer Gods to influence them (the Rot Goddess for Malenia for instance) since the Kindred Pests goal seems to be birthing a new Goddess of Rot through Malenia and her bloodline (See Millicent's questline and what seems to be the three deaths of Malenia) Bonus random theory: Unlike Dark Souls where size is semi metaphorical of power, in Elden Ring a creature's size seems to be 100% literal. This is based mainly on 3 things: The Vulgar Militia's descriptions all state they are tiny and that being tiny is bad. Latenna explicitly calls the giant Albinauric woman at the end of her quest line "Our towering sister" and finally Radhan and his horse's story about why Radhan learned gravity magic.

[@petercottantail7850]

A interesting theory of the omen are like the misbegotten they are the closest to the primevil crucible, misbegotten coming in contact with it transformed in some way while omen are true genetics. The crucible knights using incantations of the crucible ect were once looked up to as divine but now are viewed as disdained and impure. The "curse" is a title given by the golden order not so much a literal bad thing but perception and we the player take it for face value since we don't know the context. Dung eater whether he knows that or not idk, seems to be infatuated with it in a bit more of loose screw, but technically his ending brings everyone closer to the perfection of thr crucible not do much everyone is now poop

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

I mean, I'm not sure size was entirely metaphorical in Dark Souls though? Like, big things were generally considered giant or overlarge in universe most of the time. Also, size is a funny concept in all of the Souls games as it's become increasingly clear that the perspective of all Souls protagonists is from a 5'5" height paradigm, which might make sense for a Japanese man or woman, but from the average Western man's perspective, is really short. This seems to be for gameplay reasons as making enemies larger than the protagonist allows easier reads on enemy actions if the player model is in front of and obscuring an enemy model further away - the larger enemy model can still be seen. Though it explains why the Zweihander is considered a "colossal" sword when it's just a great sword to the 6'4" Germans or Norsemen who would've wielded such a blade historically.

[@ashtonfeatherstoneandersen4783]

Hey it's me Charlie Day meme guy: in all seriousness I came here because I've seen a few posts about some form of continuity between Souls, BB, and ER. I'm going to leave out the Moonlight Sword in my theory because that's honestly the weakest link imo. I think if we are talking timelines...*flips notes* and with saying this is a really rough drafting without much thought but based off some understanding of the lore. If we go back to From's early days we will see that the actual 1st John DarkSoul was actually named John(Jean)Alfred Forrester, and if he is our ancestor in game it would explain the resilience and abilities of our own Original Characters..that's just one of the many more silly rabbit holes we could go down but I think if we are just lookin at the history, I really think it could be as easy as maybe the games we see are just worlds building on top of worlds that will "end" as easy as they "begin" so let's try to make this Miyazaki-verse work explanation: The creator God being idiotic and as destructive as it is powerful had one very terrible flaw, it was unable to stay awake to see its creation. This world when is was created was called Valicia and since its conception has been the stomping grounds for the enigmatic eldritch beings and outer gods of yore who have held bits of influence on the planet throughout history. The first of these gods to grace our cosmos was named Sylval the Creator, after molding the world he had to rest and sleep and so it was then left up to the 3 deific children to create life and govern the laws of nature of the world. Elfos the Sea, Elwin the Sky, and Vallad the Earth. When the races of Valicia were created the made elves, dwarves, and sprites to sing songs in their praise and to make tools. Man would be created to take over the world but they have woke earlier from their slumber then expected and have waged war on the other races driving them into hiding. Elwin, and Elfos abandon Valicia forcing Vallad to complete the task alone. The God sought to transform into the world tree and splitting himself into two dragon demigods to influence and balance mankind. He didnt realize that doing this would also create an evil seed at the roots, this seed would feed off the desires of man and the dragons would fail in their Demigod duties and would wage war on eachother. Being polar opposites and inverted images of eachother it would be impossible to get along. Seath the White Dragon of Dark, and Guyra the Black Dragon of Light would use the humans to get at each others throats. Creating godkillers such as Darkslayer and Moonlight Sword. Vallad is then forced to wait for a chosen hero of light, a decendant of the golden dragon blood to bring order by wielding the Moonlight Sword against evil, and slaying the gods to bring peace to the desolate lands of Verdite and the Royal Cemetary. Chaos and darkness are born of the greed of the kings and the suffering of the people breeds monsters and demon alike. The Timeline of Valicia aka Verdite/The Lands between/Boletaria/Lordran/Drangleic/Yharnam/Earth could go in order as such. 1st era - Eternal Ring (dont know the lore I'm just inserting because the name sounds sus) 2nd - Elden Ring (space dragon tree) 3rd - Kingsfield (dragon tree) 4th DemonSSouls (old one plus ancient tree religion) 5th DarkSouls (archtrees and all the ethereal tree clues) 6th ShadowTower (Kings Field but bloodborne lol) 7th Bloodborne (the result of the new world created via the dark soul) 8th Sekiro (blends fantasy into our reality explaining all the "magic" in historical Japan.) Tinfoil theory I know but this information on the creator and anything reminiscent of "Outergods" all comes from the grandpa souls Kings Field. Why would they use Kingfield era lore... so it kinda seems like From is either rehashing old lore or it's more connected then we think. Or just not related entirely...

[@dominickbolieau9328]

There is mention at one of the Churches of Marika from Melina's dialogue that Radagon and Marika were at one point not whole. She is having what seems to be a private conversation with Radagon about him not becoming one with her yet. Sinclair Lore pointed it out. Also on the size thing I got one name, Ranni. She seems quite strong as she probably killed a two fingers and she can instant kill you/teleport all sorts of shit so honestly just seems like the rest of the series where it is case by case. If size and power were literal than fire giant would be lorewise the most powerful and that is certainly not the case considering the fire giants lost their war.

[@aidanjohnson3169]

I only watched the Vati disagreements and I think you definitely had some interesting thoughts! It seems to that vati has always taken some liberties or leaps with his lore videos, for one because it’s impossible to not, nothing is explained clearly and you have to piece everything together yourself in souls games and also because his lore videos are like stories he’s a storyteller at heart so he’s trying to come up with the best story possible while still respecting the games lore as much as he can without the video becoming boring or losing the narrative structure he’s trying to build. That’s just my opinion. Great video as always

[@sunset6012]

Exactly I don’t think Vaati is a historical document lore guy, he’s a storyteller and is happy to use his imagination to fill in gaps.

[@lokilucario]

He's the Mr Ballen of souls games pretty much

[@johncra8982]

Vaati isn't exactly a storyteller. He's like a voice actor that gets hired to read an ebook, and the ebook in this case is the collection of posts he lifts from anons on internet forums. Only difference is he's the one monetizing everything and raking in the cash. He's a great entrepreneur.

[@mcmuffin9275]

I think that happened once, and now he gives credit any time he uses someone else’s idea to the best of his ability. Maybe THATS why his ideas are more out there, because he’s afraid to say anything similar to anyone else for fear of people accusing him of stealing it.

[@SynysterProjects]

@@lokilucario so glad someone else knows who Mr Ballen is lol. But yeah I 100% agree, he's still a great SoulsTuber, but he does like to fill in gaps to confirm his biases about the lore in these games.

[@AscendantStoic]

Marika set up the Blacksmith Hewg to create a god-slaying weapon, specifically to kill the Elden Beast (the only fight that shows "God Slain" afterwards), so her working with Ranni in secret could be very possible.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Yeah, there's a LOT of predestined stuff that points to Marika having set up many people and events in advance to get the outcome of the game. Which is why that aspect of the Ranni theory holds a lot of water.

[@Gante_Gato]

I think that, whether or not they were working together or not until a certain point, Ranni stealing death wouldn't have been necessary and she definitely wouldn't have killed Godwyn if they were, so they are definitely not working together when the NotBN occurs. The lack of a reason as to why they would *stop* working together before that, brings me to they conclusion that they weren't in the first place

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

@@Gante_Gato You know, one thing to consider is that Marika being a goddess may simply have the ability to know what's going to happen to a very large degree and set things in motion at certain points foreseeing events before they occurred. But knowing about something isn't the same as experiencing it, and that's often the difference between knowledge and wisdom. So perhaps she helped set things in motion in certain ways, but upon actually experiencing events she knew were going to happen, she reacted in ways she didn't realize or expect. Also, considering a lot of the actions of Ranni and her "Totally not a cult" crew and specifically their gear (like Iji's helmet) they seem somewhat guarded from people scyring on them or reading into their actions or minds, so there could also be gaps in even a god's foreknowledge.

[@francescofrancescato1251]

That's my theory. We know that there was an important and secular battle between the Moon (outer god) and the Greater Will. The inhabitants of the Eternal cities, presumably the Numen, venereted in secret the Moon and wanted to overwhelm the Erdtree (they even tried to create artificially a rightful Lord, since the births in Numen's society were really rare), and that's why they commited the highly treason, creating the fingerslayer blade, killing several two fingers and being banned far underground by the Greater Will and its allies, under a sky of false night. But the Moon didn't stop here, in fact this outer god/goddess made contact with Rennala several years or decades afterwards, in order to fulfill its purposes. After this event, First Battle of Liurnia took place in Lands Between and went on until Rennala fell in love with Radagon, creating convenient peace between the two factions and a stalemate between the two Outer gods. So the Moon didn't succeed in its purposes once more. After the betrayal of Radagon, who was fully controlled by the Greater Will and married Rennala only for convenient intentions, the Carian queen felt in disgrace and was abandoned by her Outer God. In fact, several time later, the Moon saw in Ranni, Rennala's child, the perfect vessel to establish its domain and influnece on the Lands Between. As soon as the Greater Will discovered this, it tried so hard to "take control" of Ranni body (and as a consequence of her mind and intentions), in order to steal the chosen vessel from the Moon. That's where things complicated... we know Marika is obsessed with control and power (she even removed the rune of death by the Order to make her empire as long as possibile) and she loves IMMEASURABLY her son, Godwyn (who was her only "normal" child after all). So, Marika didin' t want Ranni to take her place as the new Greater Will's vessel, and Ranni didn't want to be the vessel of the Greater Will. So they made a deal... Marika would have helped Ranni to steal a fragment of the rune of death, the Destined Death (betraying her loyal shadow, Maliketh), and Ranni would have killed herself to free her empyrian's flesh from the control of the Greater Will. I think that was the initial plan. But Ranni wanted ONLY her flash to die, not her soul (we know that with Destined Death, the process of death is complete, mind and flesh). That's because Ranni still wanted to establish the Moon's influence and its will on the Lands Between. So, she decided to kill Godwyn and her body at the same time, splitting in twice, as a result, the centipede mark of death. Ranni, in fact, knew that Godwyn's death would have made Marika literally furious, making her shatter the Elden Ring with an irrational act and bringing the world in a state of decay. Tarnished were "created" by Marika and Greater Will in the distant past, as a sort of last chance to specifically bring back the integrity of the Order when things would eventually fucked up, like they did with the Shattering. So that was extremely important for Ranni, because she needed a Lord to be married with to establish the domain of the Moon. Ranni also knew that, after the Elden ring was eventually shattered, lots of Tarnished would have arrived, as a consequence, in the Lands Between and she knew very well that within her guidance, one of this Tarnished could have probably become the next Lord of the Moon.

[@AscendantStoic]

@@francescofrancescato1251 That actually makes sense, nicely put.

[@jakeeis2923]

Love the way you two work together. Thanks for all your guys time invested in this

[@dinofunkTV]

I believe that the two Primeval Sorcerers Lusat and Azur were brought back to the Grand Library with Sellen and combined with her into the Arcane Sphere.

[@poobs2]

I think the major flaw in Vaati's explanation of the erdtree was simply his use of the word "parasite". From my memory he didn't say "the elden beast is a vessel of the greater will and definitely parasitically attached to the great tree". He more so used "parasite" as a description for the greater will having an influence on the great tree to "evolve" in a certain direction: the erdtree. From the way both of you speak, and how Vaati explained the transition of the great/erd tree. All three of you most likely are on a very accurate path. The word "parasite" is just much too specific a word to use in this case. The great tree did go through an evolution to become the erdtree, but its ascension was caused by intervention of the greater will. Almost like stem cells being manipulated into a certain tissue. The new tissue isn't a parasite, it's source is still the same thing, but an outside influence is what pushed it to become what it is now.

[@ratatoskr6324]

Good point. I definitely think the word parasite was what I was focusing on.

[@poobs2]

@@ratatoskr6324 reply from the content creator!! Thanks a ton for the response! You smough/Vaati and not even a handful of others are the best quality and most honest dudes doing Elden Ring right now. My entire KZbin algorithm is click bait "OP ELDEN RING *insert useless cookie cutter hot take here*". You and only a few others doing deep dives are a very welcomed breath of fresh air. Keep up the good work big dawg!

[@andrew_cunningham]

I'm still not 100% on your guy's counter-explanation that the "crucible" is a general concept independent from the Erdtree. I was reading some crucible-related idem descriptions on the wiki while you talked, and two still seem to imply that the primordial Erdtree literally _was,_ somehow, the crucible of life. Firstly, pieces of the Crucible Knight armor set are said to "Hold the power of the crucible of life, the primordial form of the Erdtree", which directly implies that "the crucible of life" is an alias for "the primordial form of the Erdtree". Seluria's Tree greatspear then has the line "The primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself, and this spear, modeled on its crucible, is imbued with ancient holy essence." The syntax is maddeningly ambiguous, but the phrase "modeled on its crucible" must mean that the spear's design is based on either its own crucible, or the previously mentioned Erdtree's crucible. Considering the spear physically looks like and is called a "tree", though, I think the only sensible interpretation is that the primordial Erdtree is the spear's crucible, which it was also physically modeled after (not that the wars the Erdtree fought count as its own metaphorical "crucible", and that the spear was somehow designed based on that abstract concept). So idk about Vaati's whole "the Erdtree is a parasite" thing, but I don't think it was unreasonable of him to at least assume that the primordial crucible was within, or somehow localized to the Greattree.

[@zombiekungfumaster]

I thought the Greatree existed in the Lands Between first and then the Greater Will sent the Elden Star down to suck up its power because the power of the primordial crucible was what it wanted. Because the Erdtree is on the surface but doesn't extend as deep as the roots of the Greatree below ground.

[@Kriosaivak]

My theory, which is partially something I heard elsewhere, is that the Giants burnt the Greattree. Explains why the Crucible Knights followed Marika, how she knew their flame could burn the Erdtree, and why taking them out was her first order of business. The Greater Will saw that the Greattree had been destroyed, saw its opportunity, and moved in to the Lands Between, combining the remnants of the Greattree with the Elden Beast to create the Erdtree.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

@@Kriosaivak That's a good point, though the Haligtree, which is what I think you're referring to as the Great tree, doesn't seem to be burned exactly? It's rotting, which is tied into Malenia and the outer god(dess) force of Rot, but not really burned. Unless you're referring to a third gigantic tree in this game of which I'm unaware?

[@hachikuji_mayoi]

The parasitic thing is honestly a Reddit theory that he just picked up because he lacks originality

[@Kriosaivak]

@@hachikuji_mayoi Honestly, shut up dude. I may disagree with Vaati’s theory, but you saw the mind map he put together. The dude has gathered pretty much all the information in the game, and he’s been putting in the work with theorizing. And besides, uncovering the story is a communal process, nobody does it all alone. People like to harp on some mistakes he made in the past which have been blown out of proportion, and which he has since moved on from. He cites his sources, he references anyone who helps him, and he still produces some of the best Soulsborne content on KZbin.

[@AngRyGohan]

I think the biggest puzzle here is definitely Marika's Plan, because ask yourself the following: Why is the Erdtree blocking our path into it ( and subsequently why does the Elden Beast attack us ), when the Greater Will is the one who ( seemingly ) wanted us to become Elden Lord to begin with? There is some room here that it wasnt the Greater's Will intention to give the grace back, but Marika, because it setup almost too nicely: Melina's mother is in the Erdtree. Melina finds her reason to burn away the Erdtree literally after approaching the Erdtree where her mother still could be. It was Marika who cursed the Fire giant to begin with. It was Marika who sent away Maliketh with the Rune of Death and guess where we land by the help of Melina? Who was the one who even sent away the Tarnished to begin with, with a direct quote that one day she will give the grace back? All of these questions have a very common answer: Marika wanted to burn the Erdtree all along. Of course there are the inevitable questions: Are the Two Fingers incapable of stopping the Tarnished, which is why they only acted as if it was the Greater Will who gave the grace all along, knowing that its impossible to enter the Erdtree anyway. Why did Gideon acted out againts us, if he claims to know what Marika wants which is againts what we are planning to do?

[@Ender240sxS13]

Pedant here, while primordial is used in biology to refer to the earliest stage of development, it's primary definition is "existing at or from the beginning of time", its second definition is "basic and fundamental", biology just adopted the term. So saying that the use of the word primordial implies an evolutionary connection I don't think is necessarily correct. It would depend on the way the word is being used.

[@ATC43]

Its less just the word primodial but also its relation to the word crucible("a situation of severe trial in which different elements interact leading to the creation of something new"). The Erdtree changed and "evolved" into what it is/represents now. The Golden Order. And for those changes to happen it needed to go through different trials and conquests(fire giants, Storm Lord) to reach it current state. And so now anything which resembles that earlier, base form of existence where all things can exists simultaneously and together are shunned. Which is a bit of contradiction considering Marika/Radagon's existence and all the examples of duality in soul and body throughout the game. Though this is true to life considering all the contradictions and "flaws" within real life religions. Hell the growth and changing of the great/erdtree to be something which caused the separation of specific aspects of life and existence could be Marika own influence. Her will and wish to be a separate, autonomous, and unique being. Free of her other self and of the Golden Order. She becomes disillusioned with her existence and chooses to shatter the ring.

[@Ender240sxS13]

@@ATC43 like I said it depends on how the word is being used. The use of the word primordial does not in itself imply an evolutionary transition. I haven't done any kind of indepth look at the actual wordings in the game but I don't think the use of these words in and of themselves rule out the argument presented by Vaati. That being said I think the specific conclusion that the Erdtree is "parasitic" is a stretch. It seems pretty clear that the Greater Will is an invading and conquering force in the Lands Between, and part of that conquest resulted in the "destruction" of the Great Tree and it's replacement by the Erdtree. The statement that the Erdtree "evolved via natural selection" from the Great Tree seems very unlikely to me because of the involvement of the Greater Will/Elden Beast. The Erdtree was created from or is a twisted form of the Great Tree, twisted/created by the Elden Beast/Greater Will to replace the Great Tree and better serve the Greater Will's dominion over the Lands Between.

[@jasonb6860]

Yeah insisting on evolution being a thing in a game focused on magic and gods manipulating mortal reality feels like an odd fixation.

[@InnsannaStories]

My theory is that Melina is born of Marika and Ranni of Radagon, as twins- born at the same time from the same body with opposite parents, thus their different first letters of their names.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

That absolutely tracks with what I've been thinking about their connection myself. Especially the fact that we don't really know when either Ranni or Melina was born and importantly, both seem to be much younger than all the other demigods. Also, Ranni treating Rennala as her mother doesn't mean Rennala is Ranni's biological mother, merely her adoptive mother, which is a theme shown in Gideon being the adoptive father to Nepheli Loux.

[@InnsannaStories]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe I actually took the opposite view on their age- I think Ranni is the oldest of Radagon's children, and thus the most removed from Marika and the golden order.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

@@InnsannaStories Huh. I mean I was just going off of primarily Melina's appearance (and the fact that both she and Ranni seem to share the same face model, even if it's a doll of Ranni in the end), but I mean, compared to all the other demi-gods, both seem much younger. Other than Miquella maybe, even though we never actually see more of Miquella than a hand in an egg. Like, Malenia and Rennala both seem designed like more traditionally mature women while Melina and Ranni are much more girlish in their designs I guess? And while that may not mean much literally since we're talking about Gods and Demigods here, where age may very well be just a number to them, it seemed to be the visual implication to me.

[@InnsannaStories]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe fair, but if Melina is the gloam-eyed queen, then she's probably older than many of her siblings, and if shes Ranni's twin (which I think she is) then Ranni is also older. Also, both are definately older than Miquella (and Malenia, by extention) as they were born after Radagon became Elden Lord and left Rennala- its just seeing who's older between Ranni, Rykard and Radahn, and given Rykard and Radahn have connections to the golden order (or, Rykard used to) whereas Ranni has almost always been antagonistic to it as far as we know, it makes me thing she's older, her views already well formed by the time Marika adopted them.

[@arcanefire7511]

@@InnsannaStories Rykard vehemently opposes the Golden Order though. I think general ideology matters more than age, and Ranni being an empyrean made her despise the golden order more.

[@lawrencekibe]

Enjoyed every minute of this podcast

[@nextos]

Perfect timing. Just finished this weekend. Stellar game. Excited to run it through a few more time.

[@nooth5552]

What a captivating 2 hours. Could’ve listened to you two talk for another 2 no problem. Never heard of smough before this either. Glad you had him on and hope he returns.

[@yojishinkawa378]

Melina has a raven foot tattoo on her eye, literally gives you a mount, and fights like an assassin. Could she be a ravenmount assassin? (They're mentioned in the raptor armor set.)

[@Kyle-bu3og]

Her knife is the same size and basic shape as the black knife. And the weapon art is identical except for the color.

[@AlenPesec]

@@Kyle-bu3og blade of calling 👍😊

[@dantoki6371]

There isn't a bird wich feet would look like that, unless they twisted the foot backwards and forgot to include their fourth digit at the back of their feet. It seems like a forearm with claws, it has the radius and ulna at the right place . Also the mount in ravenmount most likely means mountain, I doubt they have the habit to gift mounts.

[@jonathanbusche8093]

What if ranni (or the snow crone as that is who the appearance is) and melina are the twinbirds, based on them both having the raven's foot "seasl"

[@_Somsnosa_]

To me her tattoo looks more like a bony dinosaur claw or beast claw

[@justhaku9240]

YESSSSS! You two are my favorite channels to go to for elden ring since it released and I look forward to every podcast, appreciate you both ❤️

[@SmoughTown]

Yaya!

[@FreddyCervantesSaenz]

Really enjoy listening to this podcasts on the background

[@VoltaDoMar]

Appreciate you guys diving into this. It's not easy to unravel

[@Sorrowdusk]

@1:44:19 Also -I just want to add, the "idea" that the Erdtree is A parasite.... or IS parasitized predates Vaati's video release. He's not the first person to suppose a idea like that. BUT -he might very well lead to its' popularization. Nonetheless it was already an idea in the playerbase. It feels a bit weird to imagine natural selection in a magickal universe, but its interesting.

[@jeff-yf4fh]

ah yeah smough loving the lord of blood lore you just dropped i watched it 3 times now can’t wait for more

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks Jeff! Great name btw ;)

[@bradencluster4739]

That discussion of enjoying things more when you're younger was well articulated. That was some deep philosophy and I think you nailed it.

[@austinrose3728]

With all the lore videos coming out, and the occasional "pure unsubstantiated speculation being sold as fact" it is very refreshing to listen to you two have disagreements and attempt to defend your positions. Great episode, thank you both!

[@bingus2464]

I think Numen is likely the "nameless city" in the deeproot depths, as punishment for Merika's betrayal of the Golden order her home was destroyed and its name erased, similar to the nameless king in dark souls. Also the "numen's rune" item is found more in that location than anywhere else in the game that I could find.

[@YetiCoolBrother]

That's a good bet I'd say, its definitely called The Namless Eteranl City. Fits the naming convention too: Nokron, Nokstella, & Numen.

[@nitothefunkybunch6938]

Numen is said to be outside the lands between

[@bingus2464]

@@nitothefunkybunch6938 sure, but do the eternal cities count as the lands between? I honestly have no idea. At its core even the name of the world is a vexing mystery, lands between what? The night sky of the eternal cities and the night sky of the overworld? That's my current theory but I could very well be mistaken

[@chrisbellville6957]

Numen is a race or culture its a chooseable race in the character selection New men

[@johndalton4559]

I AGREE, especially the last part was the giveaway for me.

[@wheelchazeal8089]

This is one I didn’t want to end. I could listen to several more hours of this.

[@tonytrident8874]

Listening to this again after the frenzy 🔥 video left me way more enlightened.

[@brolafdanaross9787]

Thanks I was really looking forward to this podcast

[@Willow4526]

so this covers a whole bunch of little things. so I've noticed there might be a connection with the outer gods in relation to "the one great" that's mentioned. it's possible we might be dealing with a Ymir of Norse myth and Cronos(Kronos or Cronus as well) of Greek myth situation, where the one great split into different other gods, known in game as the outer gods, with each representing a body part. Two fingers, three fingers, fire giant god eye, Mohgs God of blood, the moon is the mind or brain, the dragons god is skin, rot god is the remains that is decaying. death birds god idk if that's connected or a seperate natural force, but could be the concept of one thing ending to become something else, so doesn't represent a part but what happens to all that was the parts or its the bones. another thing to distinguish as a seperate force is gravity is potentially a natural primordial force that exists outside any god.

[@ClasticOne]

In this model I think the Death Birds would be bones. Both due to their skeletal appearance and due to the fallen hawks discovering ghostflame, the same power the death rite birds wield, by burning the bones of their comrades.

[@wilfloyd7635]

More of this, pls? Like, I would LOVE a series of discussions with other lore theorists. This was wonderful to listen to while playing the game, and I just wish there was more.

[@ricardorehlander348]

Great podcast. Really enjoyed listening to this!

[@jtizzle7218]

This was fascinating. I really enjoy mythology and stuff like that so this was definitely cool. I actually really like that marika is a vague character because so much hinges on her. This adds an amazing element to the lore.

[@talkingmudcrab718]

One thing about Melina is that the name means "little drop of honey" in archaic Greek. I think of the Erdtree ritual that creates the Sacred Tears that is depicted upon the Icon Shield. I believe that this indicates Melina was created in a similar process by Merika. I think it's possible she later inherited some aspect of the Gloam Eyed Queen but she is not the Gloam Eyed Queen herself. Just a thought.

[@bryantbolyen9316]

The only two named Black Knife Assassins, Tyche & Alecto, also have names from ancient greek

[@MadLuigi]

Great discussion and lots of solid lore talk!

[@Quirkus23]

So for me the parasite idea comes from grafting. Some fruit trees are grafted onto the stumps of previous trees and the use that root system to grow. I think this is what the Erdtree did. In the Deep-rooted Depths map we can see the chopped down Greattree the Erdtree grew from. I think thus is why the idea of grafting is even included in the game. It's a thematic hint towards this. Great discussion. There is also the alchemical idea that the Crucible is the prima materia. Worth looking into. Also the games Gnostic connections are interesting and worth reading up on imo.

[@yo-beastentertainment]

Loved this podcast I already can't wait for the next one

[@prawn1717]

Something to listen to while I go back to farming for the Octopus Head? This is wonderful news :D

[@jonaswest6993]

Got it first baby octo kill on a new character. Naturally right?

[@prawn1717]

@@jonaswest6993 *pain*

[@ladymariaoftheastralclockt2338]

This was an excellent discussion! Really made me appreciate the game a lot more.

[@petercottantail7850]

Astel clones would make sense, but there are also fellstar beasts with the same pencers and association with meteorites. It felt like an alien race to me or invasion even

[@Edhelvar]

I would love an episde or something with you guys, Vaati, maybe Ashen Hollow, just discussing the lore, the back and forth and discussions and multiple interpretations would be really fun to hear.

[@matthalaszz]

Such a good listen, you guys are very knowledgeable about Souls games and have great opinions !

[@BigSaltyBoi]

Holy hell! Didn't know this was a long(ish) form podcast. Awesome! Insta sub.

[@ClasticOne]

Something important to keep in mind, especially with regard to the Godskins hunting actual gods, is that there was an entire age and history before the erdtree. Remembrance of the Dragonlord mentions both an Elden Lord before the Erdtree and a dragon God that fled in the past. If the Godskin order is older than the erdree then they could have been hunting ancient gods in the distant past. A possibility is that the elden ring did not come into being wholesale, but rather was assembled piece by piece as the champions of the Erdtree conquered the various domains of the Lands Between. Once Destined Death was conquered, stripped from the Godskins, and integrated into the Elden Ring, Marika could have the power to manipulate or remove it as she saw fit. Something that supports this assimilation theory is how many other disciplines conquered by the Erdtree have been integrated into faith incantations. The Crucible, the giants' flame, the Godskin's black flame, the dragons. Even the blood and rot incantations have received integration by their influence visibly seeping into the great rune of the demigod associated with them. The only major separate discipline is sorcery, associated with Liurnia, the only territory to not be truly conquered, only made an alliance with.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Also to that point is that sorceries also have a definite outside source, from the stars and moon, that remains unconquered and while all the different incantations are related to various gods or divinities, all of those gods or divinities we learn have been subsumed by the Erdtree at some point. I assume the Dragon God that fled in the past is Placidusax, right?

[@ClasticOne]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Placidusax is the Elden Lord of the dragons, not the God of the dragons. Little elaboration is given beyond that. Reference is the Remembrance of the Dragonlord.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

@@ClasticOne huh. That's interesting. Then who was their god I wonder?

[@ClasticOne]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe I think we have no way of knowing based on what is in the game so far. But the fact that a creature would be titled "elden lord" before "Godfrey the first elden lord" implies one of two things: either the elden ring was hosted by the Dragon God before it came to Marika, or the title is not strictly tied to the elden ring. Perhaps it describes a being that brings the powerful forces of the world to heel under its dominion through one means or another.

[@TheSeth256]

Can't wait for the reading of Russian literature! I read the book you mentioned and agree that it is a good representation of the Flame of Frenzy concept.

[@jbvikingbat5595]

A kind of out there but also interesting thought I had during the convo around 31:38 is; The Finger Slayer Blade was made from a corpse, and looks highly similar to the blade wielded by the Elden Beast which is also made out of a "corpse" (Radagon/Marika). The Elden Beast's sword is made out of a lord, so to speak, which will be relevant in a second. We also know from the Silver Tears and Mimic Tears that the Eternal City was trying to artificially create a lord of their own, to "usher in an age of night." People generally assume they failed, given that there is no known lord of the Eternal City, and no age of night, but what if the point was not for the lord itself to do it (ala Ranni), but for the lord, much like Radagon/Marika, to become the weapon which would bring about said age of night by slaying the two fingers? If anyone could become a weapon I think it would be something we see more often in game, but we don't, its only in two specific instances (to my knowledge) with both weapons involving the idea of being made of a corpse by beings with a heavy interest in having a representative lord for their age. Idk there's probably something that blows this out of the water but I thought it was an interesting possibility.

[@mjcaple]

This is beautiful, more off this please.

[@bigiron1990]

I absolutely love these.

[@entysing6780]

I feel so late to this video, but I've never been so happy to stumble upon a 2 hour podcast.

[@erikwilliams8692]

I’ve been waiting for the pod

[@wyattmorelock5832]

This was a really good conversation 👍

[@mickeycee8559]

Smoughs lore videos are up there with Vaati’s. Going back to Sekiro I love Smoughs content

[@SmoughTown]

Kind words, thank you friend

[@JesusIsMyPastor]

His latest lord of blood video was superb

[@SmoughTown]

@@JesusIsMyPastor Thank you so much. Means alot!

[@mykelmellen2378]

Vaati probably just saw all the new lore channels popping up and needed damage control. 🤣

[@crabbypatty10fefrefe]

A podcast with Vaati would be awesome.

[@mahendrank3391]

I'm so happy i'm not alone in my thoughts that placidusax is the storm lord. There's also a sword memorial thing in the dragonbarrow that says this is where godfrey's final battle was before he lost his grace.

[@jacoballan1714]

I'd like to think of the "Crucible" as the ordeal of all livings things to just exist, or basically just life and evolution as you guys stated, such that the Flame of Frenzy is essentially against the crucible; one force in favor of life, which comes with suffering but also beauty, and one in favor of nothingness and all-togetherness.

[@GodWarsX]

Ohhh hell yes! This ia a HUGE treat!!!

[@the_twowheel_turtle934]

Also interesting regarding Radahn, Carian Royals and Fate… in the Royal Evergaol the prisoner is an Onyx Lord and we know that Radahn’s master was an Onyx Lord and that they are more related to Astel and this other aspect of the space that that is not glintstone

[@alecebeling9723]

Such a great video

[@ihumanbeing]

Hey Ratatoskr love the vids. I was thinking about the whole Marika helped plan the night of black knives thing, and, it got me thinking. Now I’m no lore-hunter but I am someone who likes to think around lore problems and holes. What if she knew about the plot, but decided to let it happen as it was sort of in line with where she was going herself, but, didn’t really understand the full scope of what was being planned and was completely taken by surprise when Godwynn died, and in her grief she shattered the Elden Ring. I don’t know, just a thought.

[@MrCCDesmond]

Love the discussion! Lots of great stuff to chew on here. I do think there's a relation between Omen Curse, the Crucible, and the rejected dead from the Erdtree, but I'll admit I believe it due to thematic connection rather than direct concrete links. The Erdtree's rejection of the older order and really of most concepts and forces that predate it, combined with how the unwanted/excised bits of the golden order keep cropping up (like Deathroot), makes me think these are all linked to decay and neglect of natural renewal processes. The Erdtree rejects elements of the world of Elden Ring (perhaps because it's broken) and creates a lingering presence of spirits, disused primordial life/growth, and evolution that continually re-express in reality through pressure- that would explain the baleful spirits and mutations of the Omen, the social turn against the Crucible Knights, etc.

[@deskmanatee]

I really enjoy these

[@quintonhoffert6526]

Sorry to double post but I also have a potential answer to the stuff about Marika's unwanted children. There's a "Marika dialogue" with Melina at the Outer Wall Battleground grace point in Altus where she says (in Marika's words), "Hear me Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." Firstly, before anything lore-related, I want to say that this is just a pretty fucked up thing to say to your kids (and their descendants). "Do whatever you want, but be exceptional of GTFO" basically. In this context, though, I would presume that the demigod in question was one of those unlucky "sacrifices": he/she didn't live exceptionally enough for Marika and is now lost and forgotten, pretty much just existing so that you can duplicate the remembrances of those of Marika's children who achieved something. The line is also interesting in that it seems a fair bit blasphemous as well, and like a challenge for Marika's children to come take her throne. Considering that we know for sure that Ranni wanted to become the new God and supplant the Greater Will, and that Radahn wanted to be Elden Lord badly enough that he raised and army and besieged the capital, Marika's declaration seems to tacitly support those ambitions so long as the people scheming them attempt to achieve their ambitions at least competently. We don't have a time period for when Marika said this but I think this line could easily be taken as kindling for the Shattering taking place at all. In the event of a shattered Elden Ring where both Lordship and Godship were on the table, failing to make a power grab could easily be seen as failing to become anything of worth and simply becoming a sacrifice on someone else's path to glory. Actually, considering this in relation to Ratatoskr's and Smoughtown's previous conversation about why Godwyn was killed, this might explain it in a way consistent with the theory that Marika masterminded the Night of Black Knives. If we assume that Ratatoskr is correct about Marika's motivation then she opposes the Greater Will and ideally wants to supplant it entirely, or at least to get rid of Radagon since he's fanatically loyal to the Golden Order. So Marika makes a big declaration to her descendants that they must dare to be badass lest their weakness make them sacrifices on somebody else's path to glory, laying the foundations for her children to compete with each other rather than cooperate. However, Godwyn the Golden is beloved by pretty much everyone. Miquella and Malenia love him, the ancient dragons love him, everyone likes him. He's basically Baldr. If the Elden Ring is shattered then he's the clear successor as Elden Lord because everybody loves him and nobody will be able to get enough support to go against him. So the Night of Black Knives happens and not only does Godwyn die, he dies in a particularly disgraceful way that blasphemes against the Golden Order and takes him completely out of the running. Now, all the other demigods have their allies and their agendas for who should become the new God or Elden Lord and because Marika told them both to pursue their ambitions, whatever they are, and also that failing to achieve those ambitions would make them forsaken sacrifices for those willing to make a power grab, nobody is willing to work together. There can't be an orderly, democratic transfer of power because nobody is beloved enough that everyone could agree on it, and also because doing so would mean the demigods' failing to achieve their ambitions and being forsaken. With that in mind, everyone involved grabs for power at the same time and the Shattering happens. At this point, whoever wins the Shattering, Marika gets what she wants. Godrick technically has a Great Rune but he's so pathetically weak compared to the other demigods that he's out of the running: a living example of the ruin that comes to a demigod who achieves nothing at all. If Ranni wins she'll supplant Marika and become the God of the Age of the Stars, banishing the Greater Will. If Miquella wins he'll become the God of Unalloyed Gold and suppress the power of all Outer Gods with his Haligtree, and if Malenia wins she'll cede Godhood to Miquella and become his Elden Lord. If Radahn wins then Marika will still have to remain the God of the Lands Between but at least her Golden Order Fundamentalist consort Radagon will be gone. Ditto with Morgott: he and Mohg were discriminated against by the Golden Order so if he wins Marika will get a consort who deeply opposes the Golden Order (is at least what Marika probably thinks Morgott would feel). Marika may or may not know about Mohg's ambitions but even if she disapproves of Mohg he'll still try to replace the Greater Will with his Outer God patron, the Mother of Truths. No matter who wins the Shattering Marika will get what she wants. Except, of course, that nobody wins the Shattering. Everyone fails to claim Lordship and Marika's scheme fails. But even in failing Marika still has another card left: Godfrey and the Tarnished, whom she took away grace from specifically so that they could grow stronger and one day return to reconquer the Lands Between and brandish the Elden Ring. This is exactly what happens over the course of the game. Lots of Tarnished return to the Lands Between in hopes of claiming the Great Runes and becoming the Elden Lord, Godfrey among them. Of course, the plan has one major flaw: Radagon is still crazy as fuck about the Golden Order and is using all his powers as a joint member of Marika to oppose the plan and keep the Erdtree sealed so that nobody can become Elden Lord. So Marika plays her very last card and sends Melina to find and mentor a Tarnished who will grow strong enough to defeat Maliketh so that she might burn herself in the Giantsflame and lead him/her on the path to Destined Death. And hey, it even looks like Marika was right about those who fail to become anything becoming forsaken sacrifices. In my (and many other players') quest for the Elden Ring I found and slayed all of Marika's offspring in search of Great Runes, levels and phat lewt. And since I'm simping for Ranni on my first time through Marika will not only get exactly what she wanted, she'll also get the smug satisfaction of being right.

[@ATC43]

This is an absolutely great post and needs to be highlighted.

[@wheelchazeal8089]

Clicked this notification so fast I cracked my screen. 🤘

[@TheSUGA1202]

46:20The unwanted demigods might be related to the transformation object you find in stormveil.It was called "Merika's mischief" maybe Merika descended to the lands once in a while and engendrated demigod children like Zeus does on greek mythology

[@gretchling5012]

i think if Melina does have a "thing" (in the way that Malenia has her rot, Godrick has her grafting, ect.) it's fire. she quickly establishes herself as "burned and bodiless," she has reddish hair, and she serves as the game's /fire/ keeper. her story also ends in flame, one way or another. this doesn't necessarily preclude her from being the Gloam-Eyed Queen, mind you, since blackflame is a thing. but i think it's worth considering her in this light; maybe there's clues in some of the flame incantations?

[@OtepRalloma]

I don't quite see the Erdtree going through wars against everything supposed to reflect evolution. Considering that Corhyn calls all other faiths heresy and that everything was 'against' the Erdtree makes it feel more like an analog for the erasure of pagan religions by Christianity. Honestly the Golden Order has a LOT of Christian metaphors, such as the crucifixion of Marika

[@AscendantStoic]

But Christianty also integrated a lot of pagan traditions into itself, Rogier talks about Raya Lucaria Academy having ideas opposing the Golden Order in its height and yet they were still considered part of the Golden Order after the unification between Rennala and Radagon, Brother Corhyn represents a more extreme version of the Golden Order (the fundamentalists) that's more common now, but that's not how things were before.

[@OtepRalloma]

@@AscendantStoic Raya Lucaria was incorporated in part due to that faction being extremely resilient. Radagon was most likely an attempt to take over through diplomacy instead of war. Of course, I don't see things as 1:1, but still... the fact remains that the Golden Order erased and rewrote a lot of things, the same way Christianity was used by the Roman Empire and later other colonizers. Either way... I don't see the GO as a good thing. Goldmask has noble intentions, but I still see a lot of dangers because the Order can still be corrupted by a future lord. That's why I like Ranni's ending, which follows a similar concept to most JRPGS-removing deities and all-powerful orders from the picture to allow people to decide their own path.

[@TjFoshizzle77]

Great conversation! I think it’s helpful with Miyazaki to work out from influences and representations. Like for instance to me, the stars represent uncertainty, either terrifying based on Astel, and liberating from what ranni is about. The Moon I think is representative of the new domain of the gods, far enough away to allow for uncertainty. An era beyond divine given purpose, divine established comfort, and divine propagated tyranny. Also it seems inherent in the golden order is some kind of subjugation of the stars, based on that line in the trailer and the elden beasts appearance. Oh my God did Radahn put down a star slave rebellion?

[@quintonhoffert6526]

Sorry, one final post explaining something I think Ratatoskr is mistaken about. The word "crucible" can definitely mean a great challenge or ordeal, as in the play/film "The Crucible," but it can also mean sort of a giant cauldron or pot, generally where a lot of stuff is being mixed together. This is the sense that Elden Ring is using, not Ratatoskr's interpretation of the evolutionary challenge of survival. The game makes that very clear in the item description of the Aspect of the Crucible spells, which say "an aspect of the primordial crucible, where all life was once blended together." To give credit where credit is due, it DOES have some evolutionary interpretations, but combined with other descriptions of the primordial crucible it becomes clear that the crucible is more of a primordial soup kind of thing where all life was blended together and there wasn't this distinction of "this is one thing, this other thing is a separate thing" that has since come to exist. The Crucible Scale Talisman says that it is fashioned from "a scale that embodies the aspects of various creatures" and that it once grew on the bodies of humans long ago, as do the Crucible Knot and Feathers Talismans. In the same fashion, the Aspect of the Crucible incantations state that they are ancient Erdtree incantations and allow users to temporarily grow non-human body parts like horns, tails and fire-filled throat pouches to attack with. The Crucible Talismans all say that they are vestiges of the crucible of primordial life, born partially of devolution and seen as signifiers of the divine in ancient times. Things that are related to the primordial crucible are formed of multiple parts of usually disparate creatures in one, basically, they're chimaeras. You can see an example of something similar from the Godskin Nobles, whose armor description says are "ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form." LIkewise, while it's not overtly stated anywhere, it is extremely likely that Omens are just people born having been blessed by the primordial crucible with non-human properties that make them bigger and stronger. Unfortunately, as the Crucible Talismans explain, while aspects of the primordial crucible were seen as divine blessings in ancient times, they are now increasingly disdained as impurities and imperfections, easily seen from the fact that common Omen children have the horns they are divinely blessed with forcibly, and often fatally, removed at birth. Likewise, the Crucible Knights mastered incantations of the primordial crucible to augment their already not insubstantial strength with animal traits, but over time this same strength and appearance of inhuman qualities made them feared and scorned as bringers of chaos by the people they once served. So yeah, the primordial crucible is tangentially related to evolution but not really in the way that Ratatoskr thinks it is. That being said, despite him being wrong about that I DO agree with him that Vaati is making a pretty big leap by saying that the Erdtree must be a parasite. All of the stuff that references the primordial crucible references it as being the primordial form of the Erdtree. The Erdtree, not the Greattree, and I think this is an important signifier since the Greattree is used on some item descriptions in place of the Erdtree so if the primordial crucible was born from the Greattree I think the items referencing it would have said so. Instead my interpretation is that when the Elden Beast first arrived in the Lands Between and became the Erdtree it carried with it aspects of lots of different creatures from lots of other worlds. Siluria's Spear says that "the primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself," and we know from Sorceress Sellen's dialogue that golden amber (likely born of the Erdtree since its sap formed the Amber Medallions prized in Godfrey's age) "contains the remnants of ancient life and houses its vitality..." In the ancient times of the Erdtree, after the Elden Beast arrived but before Marika became queen and vassal to the Greater Will (and, potentially, before the Elden Ring formally existed), people strongly connected to the Erdtree or who were born in close proximity to it were often born with non-human physical properties born from the primordial soup of all the beings found on whatever worlds the Greater Will had been active on. In the ancient times it was seen as a sign of being divinely close to the Erdtree, which is basically just objectively true, but after civilization progressed society determined that people born as chimeric masses of human and non-human body parts were malformed abominations. Which, in its own way, was also basically objectively true, it just functioned as a weird mental disconnect since the thing that made them malformed abominations was also the primary subject of worship in the Lands Between. As a result of all this people like the Omens are unfairly discriminated against under the Golden Order even though in actuality they are more close to the primordial form of the Erdtree than their more aesthetically pleasing families. I would imagine that this would be another flaw in the Golden Order that Goldmask's Mending Rune of Perfect Order would fix, either by making it so that nobody can be born closer to the primordial crucible of the Erdtree or that those people would be once against recognized for their holiness and not be discriminated against. Either way I'm still not really sure where Vaati got the idea that the Erdtree must be a parasite from. Don't get me wrong, there definitely are parasitic aspects of the Erdtree's existence, such as absorbing the bodies and souls of people who die near its roots and the whole concept of remembrances, but that's nothing to do with the Erdtree itself. Those specific elements are aspects of the Golden Order created when Marika removed the Rune of Death from the otherwise whole Elden Ring; before that time people in the Lands Between just died normally. So in this case the Erdtree still does have some parasitic elements but it's not the Erdtree's fault, it's Marika's for tampering with the Elden Ring for her own purposes. I would still probably agree that the Greater Will has some major negative effects on the Lands Between and that its influence, and the Erdtree / Elden Beast, should be expunged, but this is a general sentiment and not something related to whether or not the Erdtree is parasitic. EDIT: As one final proof that the Erdtree is separate from the Greattree and not just an evolution of it, if you go to the Elden Throne and look at the Erdtree you can see that the area leading into it is "normal" wood (albeit abnormally huge and thick), and that the golden Erdtree actually forms around the normal wood of the Greattree like armor or like a growth. This might be what Vaati was thinking when he said it was parasitic but I don't really see it that way. Either way, the Erdtree is definitely separate from the Greattree and is growing around and outside of it (maybe inside it too, it's a little complicated space-wise and might be a magic thing) rather than as an organic aspect of it they way it would be if it was just an evolution of the Greattree. The Greattree definitely existed first, though, and when the Elden Beast came to the Lands Between it inhabited the Greattree and grew the Erdtree around it. Vaati is entirely correct to say that the Greattree existed first and is separate from the Erdtree, I just think it's a bit of a jump to say that BECAUSE THAT IS TRUE that the Erdtree must therefore be a parasite feeding off the Greattree. Their relationship could be symbiotic or something else. It's not specified and I think saying that it's a parasite for sure just isn't supported in the lore. We need more information first.

[@nemo1342]

Nicely stated. Came down to comment about a few of these misunderstandings as well.

[@sharpfang]

In your theories about Marika's involvement in the night of the black knives, if you assume Marika's involvement is a strictly held secret - specifically Ranni lying about it, claiming sole responsibility, claiming Marika was brought to the brink (in the trailer Ranni is the narrator), and so on - it makes a lot of stuff clearer. Marika might not have been the mastermind of Ranni's plot, but she helped. She facilitated the theft, she provided the assassins, she gave a lot of the know-how. And then - once all pawns were in place, all of her remaining plans ready to go without her involvement, under guise of grief after losing her son she dealt massive blow to the Greater Will and got imprisoned, punished, but still not rejected - as intended. Every Marika's action roughly since banishment of Godfrey was aimed against the Greater Will. Some more overtly, some very indirectly. In particular, killing Godwyn poisoned the Greattree roots with deathroot, cutting the supply of souls from all the catacombs. Ranni's plan for the future was definitely to Marika's liking so she helped in it. Banishing Godfrey and later the Shattering? Greater Will is all about order and fate and destiny, the deterministic future. You can't out-plan such an enemy with chess-like thinking; what you need is chaos. The Tarnished have no fate, they are total wild cards (...why is the Fingerslayer Blade a key item and not a weapon? See its description...). So she first *created* them by sending Godfrey away and then brought them back in such a way they had free reign under the Greater Will: through The Shattering she cornered the Greater Will into a situation where it was completely out of predictable allies and it had to summon the Tarnished to make any headway from the stalemate she put it in. And one of the wildcards blundered into Ranni...

[@aalangley6]

That Flame of Frenzy video got me to read The Brothers Karamazov, I'd call it a win!

[@Tom-iy8bb]

Regarding's Vaati's comments about the Storm Lord. He is referring to the Stormhawk King. It's pretty evident that the Stormhawk King is a bird, not Godwyn. And this king held Stormveil Castle. It is also referred to as a "Lord" in the Warhawk's ashes. So Stormhawk Lord, or Storm Lord. This is a pretty evident connection and holds far more ground than Placidusax being the Storm Lord as he was in his "time stasis" state by the time Godfrey comes around.

[@ratatoskr6324]

In his video Vaati was not saying the Stormhawk king was the storm lord. The item description says that other hawks see it as sovereign, but that doesn't mean it ruled over stormveil. It's a hawk. The strongest hawk, but hawks don't build castles. And I don't think Vaati was saying that they do. If he did I'd disagree much more than I do now.

[@Tom-iy8bb]

@@ratatoskr6324 It's referenced as a monarh and directly references Stormveil. That's pretty on the nose there. And, when combined with the Warhawk Ashes, it's adds a lot of flavor text to the lore making it the most likely candidate for the "Storm Lord" The irony here is that you are making some leaps in logic with this one, the very thing you are accusing Vaati of doing. Yes, hawks in our world don't build castles. But we know nothing of the Stormhawk King. Was it intelligent? Did it have human, or humanoid, soliders who would have shared the castle with it? Did it take the castle from another, more ancient, faction? All we have is that it was a monarch in the Stormveil region. To add some insight, it makes sense that the Storm Lord would be at Stormveil. As Godfrey defeated the Storm Lord, he would have taken it's land, which would explain why Stormveil stayed in his lineage.

[@ratatoskr6324]

@@Tom-iy8bb I promise you that Vaati does not think that the storm hawk king was the storm lord. If he replies on his channel or discord he'll tell you that himself.

[@BeginTheCrusade]

Hawkshaw is working on a lore vid .. excited about that one.

[@core-nix1885]

Weight of a soul is also referenced by Aged Feather in DS2. Though it also functions as a quill/stylus.

[@thehotwindblowing]

I love smoughtown!! I hope he blows up

[@dantoki6371]

Just a bit of nitpick/correction, if I understand right, when you guys talk about the rune of death is being added to the elden ring with the Rune of the Death-Prince and Destined Death is restored is wrong to an extent. Destined Death/Rune of Death is with Maliketh (only a fragment got stolen from him at the night of the black knives) and after we kill him it gets unleashed back to the world, the cutsene after Malekith dies pretty clear about it. So in every ending Destined Death is restored. Now what the Rune of the Death-Prince does: "it will embed the principle of life within Death into Order.". Sure, you'll die, but after death you'll be an undead. Also the name of the ending "age of the Duskborn", the dusk part used because it's the in-between state of day and night. Day=life, night=death, and in this age you stuck between the two.

[@QuestioningLogic]

There’s also twin omens (not mohg & morgott) that you fight in a weird void plain. I don’t remember exactly where or under what circumstances you fight them but it stands out to me.

[@idlemindedmage6925]

It's on the way to one of the divine towers near Lyndell

[@tythus654]

Regarding the discussion around 7:00, I think that it's actually a must for the lore to be more understandable on a surface level to make the mysteries feel, well, mysterious, because then we actually have the context to ask meaningful questions. As an example of why it is a must, look at Darklurker from Dark Souls II: there is like no info about him, and so no actual discussion really happens outside of essentialy baseless speculation. If we look at something like Marika and her motivation, well, we know a whole lot about her, and given that context we can actually ask meaningful questions in regards to the topic at hand.

[@desertwrestler93]

This is what I love about the souls like community, two people able to have an adult conversation including disagreements. We need more of this in general life.

[@michaelolaf9968]

It's funny how Ratatoskr expresses concern that Vaati's dominance in the lore scene could narrowly choke how people interpret the fiction of the game, since that parallels how the golden order itself causes opposing forces to chafe in the age of the erdtree.

[@TheProphet49]

A much appreciated bit of lore talk. For all the entertainment Vaati has provided I find if you want a real item description, world context history of the Dark Souls games, noone did it as well as Hawkshaw. They came in very late in the game and blew out all their competition. I am very much hoping they make some vids for Elden Ring. Perhaps you could invite them on for a chat.

[@epyjacek]

I hope Armored Core is dope. I think there is a lot of lore potential there considering some of the previous iterations of the series. Also, looking forward to future Elden Ring lore videos.